Latest / UnF*ck Your Legal Marketing / How Lawyers Can Build Genuine Connections and Thrive Beyond the Role with Stephen Seckler
Transcript
- Gary Johnson: The traits that make someone a good lawyer often prevent them from building a successful practice. And today's guest is my friend and colleague, Steve Seckler, who is a longtime attorney coach the author of Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur. Steve's thing is this, the traits that make lawyers great at lawyering, like skepticism, ⁓ and over analysis, can quietly sabotage trust when you're trying to build relationships and bring in work. So we're talking about how to turn off the lawyer mode long enough to actually connect with people without feeling salesy, performative, or like you're playing a role in a play. So welcome, Steve, to UnFuck Your Legal Marketing. Stephen Seckler: Gary, thanks so much for having me. I've learned so much from you and I love the fact that you've launched a podcast and I'm very happy to be one of your earlier guests. Gary Johnson: ⁓ thank you. It's a privilege on my end. let's get into this in your book. Your intro is literally ⁓ of a salesman. What the moment you realized lawyers need relationship skills, but ⁓ most us aren't trained for them. Stephen Seckler: I'm not sure that there was a specific moment, but when I was growing up, my father was a math professor and he taught me that all business people were operators and I was destined to go to graduate school rather than go into business because that was what I was destined to do. My mother, guess, also had that orientation, although she wasn't quite as down on business. After I graduated from law school in the late 1980s, I joined Massachusetts Continuing Legal Education. right around that time, the field legal marketing was really just starting to take off. And I to work for Massachusetts Continuing Legal Education because actually practicing law didn't really feel like a good fit. And I liked the idea of being involved in continuing education. But I was far from the point where I am now today in understanding that relationship building, building your reputation, marketing, those are all qualities that are going to advance your career. So around that time, I was organizing a lot of seminars around these topics in addition to all the substantive legal topics. And that's when I began to realize that there's something more to being a great lawyer other than just being a great lawyer. Gary Johnson: Yeah. So as you were teaching, did you realize like, ⁓ my gosh, lawyers don't have, let's just say, the traits or the skills to build relationships. I mean for marketing that is. Stephen Seckler: Let me. Yeah, sure. Well, let me clarify and say that when I worked for Massachusetts, continually at legal education, I wasn't actually teaching anything. I was more like a conference planner. I was recruiting. Some of the leaders of the bar to organize these continuing education programs and a subset of the courses that I was working on organizing were courses having to do with practice development and business development. or should say practice management and business development. And I got very interested in those topics because they weren't topics that I really understood. So I became a student of the subject matter and began to see and learn that a lot of building a practice wasn't about hard sales. It was about relationship building. And I felt like that was something that actually was pretty good at, even though I wasn't that comfortable at that time with the whole notion of selling. Gary Johnson: God, who is ever comfortable at that? I mean, it's like, know, it can feel manipulative. It can feel like I'm this person. And like, do you feel comfortable nowadays? When you're doing business development. Stephen Seckler: That's so that's the reason that I wrote the book, because even though this has been 35 years now. There's still an element of me that still feels uncomfortable with selling I have to say I've gotten a lot more comfortable with it but those that I got from my father in particular are deeply ingrained and a lot of people that go into the practice of law Have an aversion to selling so those things don't really go away the whole notion of the book is that if you can act like entrepreneur ⁓ Gary Johnson: God. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Stephen Seckler: You could be successful even if you're not thinking it. That's the basic, that's the basic theme of the book. Gary Johnson: Yeah, and one of the things that I love is that you, was a phrase in your book, ⁓ I'm paraphrasing it right now, thinking like a lawyer but stop acting like one, especially in a ⁓ networking situation. do you mean by that? Stephen Seckler: I'm glad you brought that up, Gary. That was originally going to be the title of the book and writing the book was a lot of fun because it really forced me to really think long and hard about what is it that I'm trying to say to the clients that I work with. Think like a lawyer, but stop acting like one. I realized actually after talking to an editor I work with at the ABA that that was first of all quite a negative message. Then I realized that that wasn't really what I was trying to stay entirely. Lawyers need to, well, lawyers, lawyers do need to think like lawyers. They're, know, our clients need us to be skeptical. Our clients need us to identify risk. We need to be analytical, having high urgency, make sure that stuff gets done. need to be organized. Gary Johnson: Yeah. What were you trying to say? Stephen Seckler: So these qualities are really important and essential to being a good lawyer. But as you said in your introduction, they can interfere with some of the other aspects of having a successful career. parts of our career like building a practice rely much more on building relationships. And some of those things that make us good lawyers interfere with our relationship building. So you need a different hat to wear, but you shouldn't get rid of your lawyer hat. Again, your clients need you to wear that hat. Your clients need that analytical thinking. They need you to figure out what might go wrong. But when you're sitting around at a cocktail party and you're just talking about a parade of terrible. or if you're arguing with the people that are telling you what they think is the best dish on the menu, then you're just basically being annoying. Gary Johnson: Yeah, exactly. So if you were to say, well, if a lawyer wants to build trust fast, what or which traits or trait should they work on first? Stephen Seckler: Listening being a good listener Gary Johnson: Listening I'm sorry. What did you say? I'm kidding Okay, so listening dive a little bit deeper into that What do you mean by listen because I hear that from time and time again? and I think that sometimes people Think that listening is all about. ⁓ I just let the other person talk talk talk talk talk talk talk But there's something more to that wouldn't you agree Stephen Seckler: Sure. I like to talk about something I heard somewhere, listening to understand rather than listening to respond. Lawyers are often in when they're listening, they're thinking about, what's the next question I'm going to ask? If you're in a courtroom or if you're taking a deposition, that's probably important to use that skill. But if again, you're trying to build a relationship, if somebody tells you something asking follow-up questions that get deeper and help you understand more about what that person is talking about or where they're coming from is going to help build connection. So the example that I often like to give is if you said to me my dog died and then I say ⁓ wow my dog died and then I start talking about when my dog died three years ago or five years ago or I lost track actually it's been eight years. Gary Johnson: Yeah. OK, don't let's not go down a dark, dark thing, because I love dogs. But we will. Stephen Seckler: Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't mean to talk about dead dogs. But certain members of or former members of the administration might want to talk about it anyway. I won't I won't I won't get all political on you. But. So if you say my dog died, a more appropriate response might be, wow, you know, when did it happen? So that's so level one listening is self referential. You say something. Gary Johnson: There you go. Stephen Seckler: I heard what you said, but I start talking about myself. Level two listening is asking follow up questions, trying to go deeper. And then level three listening, which is the highest form of listening, might be, wow, Gary, you seem pretty upset about this. How old was she? did kids grow up with this dog? so that's level three listening. Level zero listening, which a friend of mine came up with is. Gary Johnson: Yeah. Stephen Seckler: Yeah, so we're going to Hawaii ⁓ in two weeks. Gary Johnson: I attorneys, I seriously hear attorneys regularly at different networking events do level zero and level one regularly, ⁓ you know. So ⁓ let ask you this. Stephen Seckler: You want to avoid that. You want to avoid that. Gary Johnson: Why is it that they typically do level zero or level one? Is it, ⁓ because ⁓ insecure? They don't know how to communicate. They they're arrogant. They're conceited. want to big dog it. What do you find is your experience because you've dealt with thousands of attorneys? Why do you think that they usually revert to the level zero or level one listening? Stephen Seckler: One reason, which is sort of a negative reason, I think, is that lawyers have a tendency to want to show how smart they are. And so we, you know, showing what we know rather than going deeper and asking follow-up questions, we think that it makes us look smart. Another reason, however, is not so negative. And I don't think that level one listening to be avoided at all times. Gary Johnson: Yeah. Stephen Seckler: When we share something with somebody that is a form of a bond. So if we've both gone through an uncomfortable experience or even a tragedy, sharing that can be a way of connecting or, you know, it's the most fundamental of human traits that we're looking for common ground. You know, it's a way for us to know we could trust somebody. So you grew up in the same place. I know your wife grew up on Long Island. I grew up on Long Island. Therefore, I trust you. We went to the same school. Gary Johnson: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, yeah, I probably wouldn't do that. Trust me. But ⁓ but I am grateful that you do. just because I married into it doesn't mean that. No. at the same time, I ⁓ I look on that time when you and I first met and we had conversation and we did connect on the fact that she was from Long You were from Long Island and so we had that that connection also me being a Gentile and my wife being Jewish that was like, ⁓ like we have that connection and And I do think that that does build trust because I think we were both doing a really good job ⁓ of either two or level three listening where we were trying to find that common bond with each other and It's one of the things that I deeply appreciate with our relationship is the fact that we do have that open relationship where we can listen to each other and not try to prove to the other person how smart we are. And I do think that that's one of the big things. Either prove how smart they are ⁓ or lawyers like be right. Let me prove to you that I'm right. That's not always the correct way to build a relationship with somebody or to connect with them. Now, if you were to... ⁓ Yeah. Stephen Seckler: Actually, Gary, if I can if I could interject here something. There's another reason why you and I connect, and it's interesting. You're married to somebody from Long Island, but you did grow up in California. You've spent your your whole life ⁓ in the West. but which would suggest that our communication style would be different because I'm from New York and we tend to be a little bit more aggressive. We tend to interrupt a little bit more, but your communication style is to me, it sounds much more like East coast. And I think that really helps us connect more. So that's an intangible way that we create connection. We also share a similar sense of humor and we're both very sarcastic. Gary Johnson: Yeah. Stephen Seckler: And being sarcastic with somebody who's not sarcastic might not be a great way to connect. But having similar communication styles can be a way building connection. That doesn't mean you have to have the same communication style. You could adjust your own. But having that is a source of connection and bond and it helps us build our relationships. Gary Johnson: It's a great point that anybody who's listening, point of mirroring ⁓ so important where you're trying to build that connection, right? And through how you communicate, like you were saying, sarcastic, maybe a little bit more aggressive, maybe a little bit softer, slow down speech ⁓ speed it depending on what that other person is doing. But I agree with I think that those are. very much needed traits that attorneys and I wouldn't even just say attorneys I would say everybody should have when they're trying to build a relationship with somebody so I want to pivot just a little bit and this is all about connecting with people when we connect with people at let's say a networking event or a cocktail party And we are trying to get other person to open up. What are of your favorite open-ended questions that, ⁓ you build without sounding too scripted? Stephen Seckler: Hmm. To me, it's very contextual. It depends upon where you are, what the circumstances are. I like to focus on the personal more than the professional if I can, because the professional sounds kind of dull and boring. Like, so what do you do? we can get to those questions, but I always talk about a good place to develop business relationships ⁓ Gary Johnson: Yeah. Stephen Seckler: at your kids soccer games or ⁓ And if you're at your kids soccer game, focus on the kids ⁓ ask them about their kids ⁓ what other activities their kids are involved with. And by getting to know them you start to build a relationship. Then later on, you could ask a little bit more about, and you know, what do you do? And then Again, if you're on the soccer field, try not to focus too much on, their business. But if they sound like somebody that you're interested in learning more about, then say, I'd to have coffee with you. Now, if it's somebody that's on your, it's a parent on your kid's soccer team of another kid that's on your kid's soccer team, you know, you're going to see them again. So you don't have to rush it. If you're at a business networking meeting, that's a little trickier. again, it depends on the context, but Gary Johnson: Yeah. Stephen Seckler: find out why they decided to attend the event. Maybe ask a question more like that. Gary Johnson: I love those because hit on something that I think is such an important element, which is don't rush it. It's a marathon, not a sprint. You're going to see these people again. It's not a one hit wonder. It's ⁓ let's this trust, right? ⁓ When someone starts, when you're talking to somebody and they start to describe a problem, how do you instruct your lawyer clients to not go into problem solving, jumping into the case law mode. Okay, here we go. Da da da da da da da and start giving advice. How do you tell them to stop that shit? Stephen Seckler: Well. Well, we've been talking about having relationships that are related to business development, but it really is true that good lawyering does involve being a good listener too. It's not like you don't have to be a good listener to be a good lawyer. You do have to be a good listener. And part of being a good listener is make sure that you're solving the right problem. And the only way to know if you're solving the right problem is by asking a lot of questions. honestly, I think a good lawyer is not going to answer the question right on the spot anyway, they're going to say, well, let me get back to you and let me gather some information and let's have a that is more informed. So again, it goes to that feeling, that drive to want to show how, how smart we are. But if you're answering the wrong question, you're not doing the other individual. Any good you're not you're not helping them, but even if they already are a client Gary Johnson: Yeah, it's so true. mean, it's it and think you're you're right on they want to show how smart they are. They want to be right ⁓ and want to prove it, which in and of itself is not bad. But when you are trying to build a relationship can kind of prevent that, you know, just seems tacky. It just seems like that seems aggressive somebody is coming at you as opposed to if they say, hey, you know, Steve, ⁓ you know, that's interesting problem. you know, would you like my take on it? Because then it invites it in so then it'll be more, I think better received. But I always find that that's touchy because a lot of people that are talking to attorneys, they want their advice. Hey, give me advice like and they just go into case law mode and you just go. Yeah, I don't know. Sometimes it's really good and sometimes it's not. I just hate it when attorneys will default on that. Which is not a good way to keep that relationship going in my opinion Stephen Seckler: I think that a good way to practice law also, rather than just giving advice and maybe it's maybe it's a good way to be in life in general is getting permission to give advice. Like you and you said it, you nailed it. You said, would you like my opinion? what I ⁓ wrote a blog post about this or LinkedIn post. When people say you should and when somebody tells me you should it brings me back to being a teenager So the blog post I wrote was you should stop telling me what I should do So I think a lot of people don't like to be told what to do now it's a little bit different if you're hiring a professional you're paying them a lot of money You don't want them to equivocate too much. I used to have an insurance broker who He wouldn't give me an opinion about anything Gary Johnson: Yeah. ⁓ Stephen Seckler: And I just wanted a simple answer. So sometimes lawyers have a tendency to do that as well. But before you're giving advice, going back to your original question, like what do do when? How do I advise my clients about not giving advice too soon? Part of it is just asking for permission to give advice. And making sure that you've asked enough questions that you really truly understand what the problem is. Gary Johnson: Mm, yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. think also ⁓ go right along with that is that when you do ask a sufficient amount of questions to get to the root, it allows that other person to really understand how much you care. They really are like, OK, he's not just jumping to conclusions. And he's really trying to be thoughtful about what situation you're going in, which I think is important. when we're trying to build those relationships. The other aspect about building relationships is staying in front of those individuals who you met at the soccer game or you met at a networking event. you have like a... I don't know if it's a line of this is too much you want to be in front of them, but you don't want to smother them. ⁓ What's your about follow up afterwards ⁓ and often and what sort of things should you keep in front of those people? Stephen Seckler: you I have a checklist in the book that gives lots of examples of ways to stay top of mind and what we're talking about is being top of mind. It depends upon also where you are and what stage you are with the relationship. When you first meet somebody, you barely know each other. You don't really know how you could help each other. Gary Johnson: Mmm. Stephen Seckler: and you're just trying to establish whether there is going to be a next step. So if we're talking about meeting somebody again at a kid's event or at a networking event, then the question is, do you want to go to the next step, which is maybe have coffee with them or just have a conversation with them over Zoom to learn more about what they do and see if there are ways that you could be helpful to each other. thinking about the next step after that is a good thing to do too because you could have one conversation and then that's the end of it. What I do is I'll send an email after I have that meeting and I'll have it CC'd back to myself. I always have my emails CC'd back to myself and then I'll stick it in a folder somewhere with a reminder to follow up with them. Now sometimes from the conversation that I had There was something to follow up with maybe an article, maybe a recommendation for a book, maybe an introduction. So maybe there's a next step right away. What I like to do also is sometimes I have a podcast like you and Gary, you've been a great guest on my podcast several times. So I really appreciate that. Gary Johnson: Thank you. Stephen Seckler: I'll sometimes invite people to be a guest on my podcast as a next step. That's obviously a much more significant commitment. I'm not suggesting to your listeners that they need to do that. It's just an example. I have lots of ways that I follow up with people that are, nothing to do with, with business. So, you if you find out somebody's birthday, reaching out with a birthday greeting, if you're a good listener and you find out about their family and then you find out that somebody in their family is sick. could check in in a month or two and ask, hope everything is going okay. If you know that their son or daughter is graduating from high school and you know it's around graduation time, send a congratulations. So there's an infinite number of ways to follow up. A very common one that you and I talk about is sending people an article of some sort of ⁓ Gary Johnson: Yeah. Stephen Seckler: And then calendaring at some point in the future to have another conversation. But in between, like you said, you don't want to be breathing down people's neck. So finding ways other than just having conversations with people to stay top of mind. Gary Johnson: When you calendar, is that coming off of your CC? Because you CC it so that you have that reminder, I sent this to them, correct? Do you then take that CC and you're like, OK, I'm going to put this out a month or make it put it on my calendar so that you don't forget to that follow up? Stephen Seckler: So there are an infinite number of ways to do these kinds of follow up. There are CRM systems. tried out a whole bunch, but I'm just a solo proprietor. So I found that the simplest way to do things is to just rely on outlook. So my system, which is very, very simple, I send an email. Gary Johnson: That's brilliant. Mm. Stephen Seckler: It CCs back to myself, maybe in the email, I might have memorialized some of the things we talked about in the conversation. What I've done a lot now, even in networking conversations, I use my note taker. I'll actually send people the notes. I'll get the email back and then I'll stick it in a folder that's just like networking or something like that. Sometimes it's more specific, but a lot of times it's just my networking folder. and in Outlook you can put a flag on something the flag has a date and it'll come up with a reminder. So I don't put anything on my calendar, it just is an email that pops up on my screen a couple of months later if there hasn't been any other reason why we've connected in the interim. Gary Johnson: I love that. That is gold because find that attorneys are like, well, the CRM, by the way, CRM for all the listeners who don't know what that it's customer relationship manager. ⁓ it's there's thousands of them that are out there. And what they do is they allow you to compile information about your relationships that you have or want to have. And creates this account like I'm gonna follow up with them, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that so it allows it so it doesn't fall through the cracks. However, you don't need a CRM. I mean, if you hear Steve and what he's saying right now, make it simple. He does his stuff straight from Outlook, CCs somebody on it and then puts that out a month or two and then just continues to roll that way. You don't have to over complicate this, make it nice and easy, but there is definitely power in follow-up. There's power in keeping in front of these people, right? have that relationship. And if it's like, ⁓ the technology doesn't allow me. Well, now you don't have an excuse because Steve told you, you could do it as easy as just keeping it in ⁓ outlook. So another excuse gone from somebody's repertoire of, ⁓ do this. I think it's brilliant because I think people do try to over complicate it or overthink it, you know? And I know. Lawyers never do that kind of stuff, is overthink things. I think that that's important. Stephen Seckler: you Gary Johnson: So do you find is the best way to become memorable without being performative? Stephen Seckler: There are few elements to that. First, having some kind of a narrow niche where you're known for something, I are very active in the Provisors Business Network, and we've all heard lawyers introduce themselves. I'm a business lawyer. represent small businesses in... They're kind of, know, I work with or I'm a litigator. do commercial litigation. I represent businesses and in their disputes with their vendors, but they're not really even usually that specific. So being known for something a little bit more specific is very helpful. The way you behave can also make you memorable. Just being kind, following up and doing what you say you're going to do, showing some integrity. I'll send you that article and then actually sending the article. So that makes you memorable. Gary Johnson: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Stephen Seckler: And then sometimes you could be memorable for some kind of interest that you have that, you know, that sets you apart. We both know an immigration lawyer in our provisors business network, Saja Roof, who prides herself in being an introvert, introvert who's really come out of her shell and Gary Johnson: Mm-hmm. Stephen Seckler: just done a great job of figuring out how to navigate business development and networking as an introvert. We have a humus relationship. Gary Johnson: Yeah. is that? No, no, I love it. ⁓ Stephen Seckler: She's always talking about humus and she just has like this odd sense of humor. She has this odd sense of humor. me, she's memorable for having an odd sense of humor ⁓ I enjoy it and I appreciate it. I Gary Johnson: Yeah, yeah. Stephen Seckler: know, but she's memorable as an immigrant who came this country as a teenager and her father was a professional of abilities and ⁓ so that with the that she I she actually, I think helped her father file his immigration papers. So that makes her memorable Her her personality Her tagline which neither of us can remember right now. It's it's even in it's even in her book. It's it's even in in the in the book. It's terrible And she has she has she does have two taglines You don't have to have a tagline you don't have to have a sense of humor you don't have to be I had I had a client who Gary Johnson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's only a tagline. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stephen Seckler: Was a bankruptcy lawyer and he used to play he was a musician he played bass and he had a band that was called the indubitable equivalence, which I don't even know what that means in bankruptcy law Well, it had it has some kind of meaning in bankruptcy law and he would play at bankruptcy conferences And some point he got tagged to do mediation. He was also a mediator in some of the Lehman Brothers cases back when the Gary Johnson: I was gonna say, what the Okay. Stephen Seckler: collapsed and Lehman went out of business and the connection that he made was through being known at this bankruptcy Institute because he was a bass player in the band so there's lots of ways to be memorable Gary Johnson: ⁓ yep. Wow. Yeah, which I love that. mean, and I think that that is so key. Make sure that you are memorable because therefore do not have to perform like a monkey. OK, so I one question for you. In your book, you ⁓ Stephen Seckler: Okay, I'm sorry. I just looked it up. just looked it up. Taking aspiring Americans from visa application to pledge of allegiance. That's Sajja Roof's tagline. But the one that I was trying to remember actually. Yeah, the one that I was really trying to remember that I thought was even better is border wall destroyer. Gary Johnson: Okay. Yeah. Very go Saja. yeah, Stephen Seckler: they're both, funny, they're memorable, and they're actually on brands for her. Gary Johnson: Yeah. Very on-brand with her, you know as an immigration attorney and as somebody who advocates for her clients I mean and it's somebody that you want that you can relate to to She's very relatable to Okay, so in your book you write about politics religion and humor and even and pets Where's the line? ⁓ Between ⁓ we just talking about being memorable ⁓ and being Where's the line between those two when you're when you're dealing with those certain subjects? Stephen Seckler: In the book, I write about how politics and religion are amongst the most emotional issues that we can deal with in conversation. the point that I try to make, and I think the title of the chapter was using politics, religion and humor to build business relationships, which to your average person sounds like a terrible idea. ⁓ the reason why it can be a terrible idea Gary Johnson: You Stephen Seckler: Is that you can really piss somebody off and never really finish the conversation? If you espouse something to someone who you don't really know them and you don't know anything about what they think But if you determine or find out that people have a similar Political vantage point that you have or if you discover that you both share some of the same Gary Johnson: Mm-hmm. Stephen Seckler: religious upbringing but it doesn't have to be beliefs. Or you happen to have a similar sense of humor, those are amongst the most emotional issues that can come up in conversation, and those can create very strong bonds. So as we discussed beginning, earlier on in our conversation, your wife is Jewish, okay, so that creates a little bit of a bond, we both have, you know, pretty sarcastic sense of humor. Gary Johnson: Hmm. Stephen Seckler: So that's a bond. And we both see the world politically in a similar way. So that is also a bond. The way to out what people's political orientation is or whether they share some of the same upbringing is to ask neutral questions. So, you did you see the hearing the other day? You know, it doesn't suggest what you think about the hearing or You could say right now we're in the middle of a war with Iran and you could say something very neutral like, boy, I'm just seeing a lot on the news these days about Iran. Just make a statement. And what I find is that a lot of times people will pick up on it and then you will know pretty quickly what they think. Most people are not going to filter that once the subject is brought up. And then if it seems like this is not going to go well, then just change the topic. Gary Johnson: Yeah. God. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm really good at changing the topic. I'm like, so how about those New York Giants? Huh? Like or no, no, no. How about those jets? They suck. Yeah. But but yeah, both of them suck. But, know, it is, you know, it is a connection point that we can have with people, right? Like you had said. And I love the idea of Stephen Seckler: How about them bow socks? Gary Johnson: Asking a neutral question. It kind of allows you to kind of feel it out, you know, and then responding appropriately and accordingly to, know, this could happen once, you know, so depending on how they respond to either your statement or question, I think that that can lead to really good solid start of a relationship, which is exactly what we're all talking about, right? Because We led with your book, Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur, which if you haven't gotten this book yet, you're listening to this podcast, you've got to get it. ⁓ ⁓ filled, filled with ⁓ many good things ⁓ it. And though Steve will not gush about great of an ⁓ author he or great of a ⁓ writer he Because you really are, Steve. You really know how to things at high level very understandable and relatable to, that you connect with your readers, not your listeners, with your readers. And I that's such an important element. The other thing it's chock full of not only stories, but good advice. ⁓ One of those is your checklist of how do you stay top of mind? it's so it's it's not just educational. It's not just entertainment, but it is these are some of the things that you could do right to build these relationships. And given us so many nuggets like listen to understand not to respond. Go at a level three, which is really listening to ⁓ connect. Stop showing how smart you are mirror how other people are speaking to connect with them make it personal Especially if you're at a soccer game, you're at your kids event or if you're just networking Don't rush ⁓ ⁓ rush it. Whatever you do. Don't rush it and When you're doing when you're starting to build a relationship make sure that you follow up I love your idea of using outlook to ⁓ You know not quote-unquote put it on your calendar But put it out one month two months so that it's appropriate when you're staying on top of this relationship so that you can stay connected with them And then just be memorable like literally be memorable out there be yourself authentically yourself. That's one thing that I think you do a fantastic job of you Don't put on a mask. You're not like ⁓ I'm be this person today, and I'm gonna be this person tomorrow You're always Steve Sackler every single time. I mean and you and I have met in person too And the thing I love about that is you're authentic You're just truly you and a very kind you too. That is sarcastic like an asshole I love So find a very good trait But but thank you this is this has been a treasure trove, I mean This has been great. And if anybody needs to get ahold of you, instead of you telling how to get ahold of you, it's in the show notes, everybody, we're going to put it in there because you're going to forget. Just click on those and get his book. And you have a new book you're writing right now, aren't you? Any thoughts of writing a new book? you how many books have you written? Stephen Seckler: I've only written one book and honestly. Gary Johnson: ⁓ fuck me. Are you kidding me? I thought you've written like a thousand books. Maybe because I've heard about this book so much. Really? It's only been one book? Okay. Stephen Seckler: I write a lot of articles. I was a little bit uncomfortable in writing a book because I thought that I would have nothing original to say. And I've been writing articles for the ABA a lot in the last few years. an editor that I work with convinced me that it was really not that I was saying things that were so original, but that I had original ways to say things. So so that was really the genesis of this book But you know, I don't think a lot of people are saying, you know advocating that people use politics religion and a humor to build business relationships or your children and your pets to grow your law practice You'll have to look at the book to see what i'm talking about i'm not talking about selling their organs Gary Johnson: Yeah. Yeah Stephen Seckler: you could sell the work it's actually yeah so the the next book that I would be in but I don't really feel like I have an angle yet to write it would be taking some of these principles and applying them to career exploration so I think lawyers there are a lot of lawyers that are unhappy in their careers and Gary Johnson: ⁓ you could, yeah. It's roundable. Yeah. Stephen Seckler: A lot of what we can do to advance our careers involves building relationships with other people. So maybe turning this into a book that has to do with some of the similar concepts, but instead of building a practice, navigating a career transition. So that's a possibility. Gary Johnson: Yeah, yeah, because you yeah, and you're great at helping navigate those times with with attorneys You've got to write it. You're a great writer like You've got to do it the people need this. So Steve. Thank you. Thank you for being a guest Thank you for being my friend. I really appreciate all of your insights And everything that you have done for me, but also for anybody who is listening to this podcast. I really appreciate your time Stephen Seckler: you Gary Johnson: very very much and hopefully I'll have you on again. ⁓ Stephen Seckler: Well, thanks, Gary. so appreciate our relationship also, and I've learned so much from you. So thank