Latest / Babes, how did you get here / Best of I Six-Foot-Six, Blonde & British: How I Became Jamaica's Most Unlikely Police Reform Hero

Transcript

Best of I Six-Foot-Six, Blonde & British: How I Became Jamaica's Most Unlikely Police Reform Hero · Babes, how did you get here

• 0:00
  Welcome to a Life Elsewhere, where we explore the stories of people who have left the
• 0:04
  familiar for the unknown. They have built lives far away from where it all began.
• 0:10
  I'm Michael Jackson and I'm speaking with Mark Shields, who in 2005 left a decorated
• 0:16
  career in policing in the UK for one of the most challenging roles imaginable.
• 0:21
  To be deputy commissioner of the Jamaica Consabulary Force.
• 0:24
  At a time when Jamaica was grappling with rising violent crime, political tension and mistrust
• 0:30
  in the police, Mark stepped into the spotlight as a foreigner, a reformer and a public figure
• 0:36
  in a country that was not his own. In this episode, we talk about how even after witnessing the
• 0:42
  country's most heinous crimes, he still chose to remain in Jamaica. Mark, thank you very much
• 0:48
  for coming here. I actually heard of you when so when you came to Jamaica I think it was 2005.
• 0:53
  I was at school and I heard that you were coming to Jamaica. I don't know why. My dad used to
• 0:58
  always tell me to watch the news and like listen and read the newspaper. He's always
• 1:02
  costing me that I'm not aware enough of like what is going on and so for whatever reason I guess
• 1:07
  at that time you must have been in the news because I knew and then we fast forward
• 1:10
  over many years later and then I get to speak to you so I'm very excited. Thank you.
• 1:16
  So you came to Jamaica to be the deputy commissioner at the JCF. What does that mean?
• 1:21
  Well, before I was deputy commissioner police, I was working at Scotland Yard, New Scotland Yard.
• 1:28
  For those who don't know, that's the head of the Metropolitan Police Service in London,
• 1:32
  the headquarters is Scotland Yard known as New Scotland Yard and I had a pretty senior position
• 1:37
  there investigating international drug trafficking, terrorism, different departments. It was
• 1:42
  very interesting work and then I had an opportunity to come to Jamaica to investigate a senior police
• 1:48
  officer who had been accused of murdering four innocent people. We're dropping new episodes
• 1:57
  every single week so make sure you subscribe. You don't want to miss this babes and leave a comment
• 2:02
  and tell me what do you want to hear out of my next conversation. Your support really helps this
• 2:07
  community grow and if you know someone who's quietly been thinking should they take that next big
• 2:11
  leap babes, send them the podcast. If you imagine at the moment I can go back to a TV program
• 2:18
  and they say, well, look at this camera, we know that something happened the last six hours
• 2:22
  and they will sit there and just go through the footage. I can actually ask my cameras a question.
• 2:28
  Can you show me every FedEx vehicle here in the last three hours? Can you show me every person
• 2:34
  or say mail with a yellow backpack and I would just come up. So if you've got a crime situation,
• 2:40
  the victim says, well, all I can tell you is he had a yellow backpack and he went in that direction.
• 2:45
  I can bring up my cameras and show you every person with a yellow backpack in a particular
• 2:50
  time zone. Do you think that the GCF needs to use more technology? Absolutely. They are ready to
• 2:59
  that. I read the other day that they're going to add cameras all over the place. I thought it was
• 3:02
  a really good thing. No, it's good. He's excellent. They have a thing called Jamaica Eye and again
• 3:06
  when I was here, there was nothing like Jamaica Eye. Okay. We now have Jamaica Eye. There are
• 3:10
  cameras. It's an integrated camera system for the police. Okay. In order that they can monitor
• 3:16
  particular areas and crime hotspots. Okay. It's good. In my view, it could be better. Okay.
• 3:23
  But it's good. It's good and it's a lot better than having nothing at all. Before we continue,
• 3:27
  make sure that you join our community by clicking the link below. You will get to choose thumbnails
• 3:33
  before the episodes go live. Pick our next destinations. Even recommend guests. I really cannot
• 3:39
  wait for you to help me shape where this podcast goes. You have a career that has clearly seen
• 3:45
  the worst of the worst. Yeah. You still live here. And I guess in my mind, well, you could live anywhere.
• 3:52
  Yes, but go back to the part that I've said. I've focused recently on the negative side,
• 3:57
  but I've said there are many good reasons to live here. Okay. Politically, it's stable and I will
• 4:04
  give you an example. The United Kingdom, since 2015, has had five prime ministers. We've had one
• 4:12
  prime minister here. Is that good? Well, I think it's pretty good because what we haven't had in
• 4:17
  the United Kingdom since before 2015 is political stability. We had this thing called Brexit,
• 4:23
  which you're aware of, where we voted to leave the European Union. It's created this divisiveness
• 4:29
  with the United Kingdom. Those who wanted to leave and those who wanted to stay. Unfortunately,
• 4:34
  it was my generation menu that voted to leave, which is absolute stupidity. No, because I voted
• 4:39
  to stay, of course, I'm a European, first and foremost, but it's caused this diversity. And I think
• 4:45
  in some ways in the UK, it's become a very intolerant place. I believe that racism has been on
• 4:52
  the rise. So the intolerance, the racism, the divisiveness in politics, and the economy, which is
• 5:00
  an absolute disaster because of austerity and all the other measures that came into place. In the
• 5:06
  meantime, Jamaica 20 years ago, massive debt against GDP, political instability. It was on the
• 5:16
  verge of bankruptcy. The IMF came in, that's the International Monetary Fund came in, and they
• 5:22
  marshaled the economy back to where it is. We've had Dr Nigel Clark, who was the Minister of Finance,
• 5:30
  prior to that Peter Phillips, when he was PNP, they have gone through a course of creating
• 5:36
  financial stability, which has enabled things like the police to buy all this extrication they've
• 5:41
  now got to protect the island. And I've noticed here that we've got this flip flop.
• 5:46
  The UK had political stability when I left it. Jamaica had complete instability in so many ways.
• 5:53
  And now I look at the UK and I think you should be a bit more like Jamaica. And in fact,
• 5:57
  the way the economy has been developed, I think, has been commended by the IMF and by others in
• 6:03
  terms of how they've turned the economy around. So there are lots of good things here that have
• 6:07
  happened. I'm not particularly JLP or PNP. I just look at the last 10 years and say objectively,
• 6:15
  things have definitely got better. Crime has been reduced. More money is available for the poorer
• 6:22
  people in society. We're not with near whether UK is in that terms of that, but things are better.
• 6:28
  So I'd rather be here at the moment than I would in the United Kingdom.
• 6:32
  And when you look back on your time, you know, you speak about people respecting because of
• 6:36
  clearly you've done so much for the JCF. Is there anything that you wish you could have achieved
• 6:41
  during your time that you didn't? I just wish things that have moved faster than they did.
• 6:46
  Sure. And there are a number of factors around that. One is change in any organisation.
• 6:52
  He's always slow and difficult. And because there are cultural differences, that probably
• 6:57
  slowed it down even more. I know for a fact there are some things that I said that we should be doing
• 7:02
  this. And I left. And suddenly it was somebody else locally's idea. It was a great idea.
• 7:07
  So that's good. I don't mind that because we know our, as I said, we moved on so far. So
• 7:13
  my regrets are that things took longer than I expected because I think this country could
• 7:18
  get so much further in terms of getting on top of crime, getting on top of disorder,
• 7:24
  social disorder. I think we could have moved a long way. But then I go back to the UK again.
• 7:28
  And you look at the knife crime, the disorder, there is in particular communities.
• 7:34
  The fact that even when somebody is taken to court, if they get to court, you can take two or three
• 7:38
  years for people to find justice. So you can't ever look at the Europe or let's say they're
• 7:46
  focused on the United Kingdom and say, well, you know, it's perfect over there. And Jamaica's
• 7:50
  a complete mess. That is not true. There are so many things here that are taking time,
• 7:55
  that it's an improving country. You see it. If you've been here before, as you obviously
• 7:58
  have been, you said that to me and you've seen how it's developed since you were last here.
• 8:02
  And from when you were young here, it's changed a lot. So yeah, if you go, if you do in life,
• 8:10
  there's going to be a regrets, but you can't always look back. You have to look to this,
• 8:14
  you say, I've made decisions. This is where I'm going. And the question you asked me,
• 8:18
  am I going to go home for good? I don't know yet. Okay. I just haven't made that decision.
• 8:23
  But because it's good on both sides. So was there ever a day that you went to work
• 8:28
  and you thought, what the fuck am I doing here in this place?
• 8:32
  That happened most weeks. Yeah. No, seriously. I luckily had two or three mentors.
• 8:41
  Okay. One of them, I'll mention by name, but unfortunately passed away. That was all of a clock.
• 8:46
  And he was the chairman of Jamaican National. He owned the Gleena newspaper.
• 8:53
  And he was one of the people who brought me here in the first place.
• 8:57
  He was a mentor, a friend, someone I could go to and talk to him. I just used to say,
• 9:02
  what the hell am I doing here? Oliver, I just need to go now. It's just not going to work.
• 9:07
  And he calm me down and say, no, you've got to do this. And you're doing the right thing.
• 9:10
  He was such a fantastic man. And there were a number of other people like Oliver,
• 9:15
  who I could go to in my hour of knees and say, what the fuck am I doing here? And I calm down.
• 9:22
  And I think, no, we've achieved this. We do that and we move on. And I think the momentum that
• 9:27
  kept me here was certain individuals like Oliver. But also, I think more than that, the people here
• 9:33
  as well, the people, because I'm so much support from just the man and woman on the street.
• 9:38
  I've never I pressed a shirt. They say, pressed a shirt. I've never pressed a shirt.
• 9:42
  And they're to learn all of that at the age of 18, 1920, because for their whole lives,
• 9:47
  they've relied on that. So this sense of entitlement can actually go and transform
• 9:51
  in transition itself into a school. So you go to school and it's almost like, well,
• 9:55
  don't know, my dad owns this particular company. Yes. And I'm his son. And don't you speak to me
• 10:00
  like that? Right. Whether that that was the sense of some of them or some kids from those
• 10:06
  tales. To be fair, I think I have one friend from for that reason. So that makes sense to me.
• 10:12
  Yeah. It's, I don't know if this is going where you want it to go in terms of.
• 10:16
  No, I'm definitely just interested. Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever think about educating your daughter
• 10:21
  in England? Some people have this perception that sending her away to boarding school?
• 10:25
  Yeah. I couldn't have afforded that anyway. And I actually know, I wouldn't have
• 10:28
  a disagree with that because I think a part of education and growing that was to be with your
• 10:32
  parents and with your family. Okay. And I don't think sending kids away is necessarily the right
• 10:37
  thing to do. Okay. And I think if you look at the UK model and you look at some of the brutal
• 10:42
  people that have come out of that sending the water boys school, people, you know, like Boris Johnson,
• 10:48
  God knows who else and Jacob's Reese Morgan. Yeah. They're not, they're not normal. They were
• 10:53
  sent away as these border boys at six, seven years old with a stiff upper lip. Yeah. And they're
• 11:00
  not well-formed people. Yeah. They're not. If anybody was thinking about moving to Jamaica now,
• 11:06
  what would you say to say? Go for it. Yeah. I think there are a lot of opportunities here.
• 11:13
  Come with an overmind. Yeah. No, it's going to be difficult. It's not easy to start a business here.
• 11:19
  Okay. There's a lot of bureaucracy still and then you've got to find the right people to do
• 11:23
  the job as well. And one of my toughest things is finding people. Okay, interviewing people and
• 11:29
  the right people into my firm to make it grow. Sure. Really tough. And so in my opinion, London has
• 11:35
  many different cultures living and coexisting. But for example, my chef in London is Brazilian.
• 11:42
  She speaks very little English because all of her friends, all of her community are just
• 11:47
  Brazilian Portuguese. And they don't, there's nothing mixing. And for me, when I hear multiculturalism,
• 11:52
  I feel like there's a mixing and oneness that I only observed in the UK for London 2012.
• 11:57
  There was an energy of like one team, one vibe. I think it changed after 2016. But the point
• 12:04
  that you've made is interesting because I give an example. My daughter, my big daughter,
• 12:08
  she had a year out from University of Kent, which was Canterbury. And she went to the United
• 12:14
  States for years. She went to the University of Miami for a year. And she said to me, she remarked
• 12:20
  sitting in the canteen, you had the Afro-Americans over there, you had the sort of,
• 12:29
  the posh girls over there, and you had this group over there. And it was very much
• 12:33
  segmented and cliquey. And you had to fit in with one of those groups. And I think that probably
• 12:40
  is a representation of what society is like that. We tend to get drawn to our own to a degree.
• 12:45
  But it is about a personality that wishes to embrace other culture,
• 12:50
  compared to other groups. But it is very easy, very comfortable to be say white and middle-class
• 12:55
  and live in suffocoresics. And really mix with those particular people. It isn't really
• 13:00
  until you get into London and you might live in southwest London where you're going to get black
• 13:04
  people, Chinese people, Pakistan people, middle-class white people, whatever mixing together. Do they
• 13:09
  mix two degree yes? But I accept your point. I think you're probably more right than me
• 13:14
  in the people tend to stick to their own. I feel like you could have moved anywhere. You
• 13:20
  seem like the type of person. Is that fair to say? It's not about Jamaican. You could have
• 13:24
  moved and been comfortable anywhere. We lived in Germany for five years. When I was in the police,
• 13:31
  I chose to go to Germany for five years. I was what they called at the time of drug,
• 13:38
  liaison officer of the DLO. And my territory was Germany, Poland and the rest of Europe,
• 13:45
  but it was Eastern Europe that was. But except Russia, of course. And I took that job because
• 13:54
  I've always wanted to travel. I like to travel. I like to experience new cultures. And I thought
• 13:59
  the way I could do that and use my policing experience was to go into that part of the service.
• 14:04
  So I was a DLO, dropped liaison for five years. I lived in just outside Frankfurt. My
• 14:09
  office was in Frankfurt. I traveled extensively around Germany, Switzerland, Poland,
• 14:14
  and really, really loved it. So I think I've always been a person who likes to travel,
• 14:19
  likes to experience new culture, love food, love wines. So I guess that's just me.
• 14:26
  And aside from headlines and all of these things, what would you think is the greatest
• 14:31
  misconception about living in Jamaica or just day-to-day lives? That is full of criminals and
• 14:36
  crime and it's not a safe place to come. And unfortunately, the US State Department sometimes
• 14:44
  preaches that as well. When you look at, don't go to Jamaica because it's an unsafe place. I think
• 14:49
  that's practically unfair and unjust and unreal. I think, as I have mentioned already,
• 14:59
  that many people come here, they spend time here, they don't get robbed, they don't get
• 15:03
  raped and they don't get murdered. They come in over good time because most Jamaicans,
• 15:06
  they really embrace the fact that they have tourists coming in because it keeps the light
• 15:10
  of going. Then on the other hand, you could say that all inclusive hotels have diminished that
• 15:20
  cross-versalization of people coming here, leaving that enclave. Because when you go into one of
• 15:26
  these all-inclusives, you could be in Mexico to Anakin Republic or Jamaica. Because you get the
• 15:32
  rum, you get the wine to get this, you get the Michael Jackson look alike in the evening on the stage
• 15:37
  and all the rest that goes with it. And it could be anywhere and you could stay there for two weeks
• 15:42
  and leave and not actually experience the country. And even if you leave it by getting onto a bus
• 15:47
  and going to Don River Falls, that isn't really seen Jamaica. But I've met other people who have come
• 15:53
  to Jamaica, you haven't gone to an all-inclusive and I've found their own way, rented a car, stayed
• 15:59
  at various places, Airbnb's or whatever, and they've found the wheelchair makes. And they're safe,
• 16:03
  they've not been hijacked, they've not been robbed, raped and murdered, and they've gone back and
• 16:07
  said Jamaica's fantastic place. How would you describe the reala Jamaica? Fun, loving, friendly,
• 16:15
  great music, love of sport. I think they're the sort of things that I would say, friendly, as I
• 16:25
  mentioned, friendly, opened. Just a great vibe here, it really is, it's just a good vibe people
• 16:30
  generally speaking, really nice people. I have a few quick fire questions for you. Tasty or juicy patty?
• 16:38
  Juicy. But if I've got some money and a bit posh, it's probably Devon House.
• 16:42
  Corrigot patty at Devon House. Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly. That's why I don't include it,
• 16:47
  because there's no competition. Yeah, it's true. Deep for rum or red stripe? Rum.
• 16:54
  Deep for oxalo or corrigot? That's a both question. I love both here, I love both. How are you on
• 17:00
  pepper by the way? I love it. Yeah, you can handle sauce by it. Yeah, I can. Deep for a young or
• 17:06
  cassava? Yeah. One thing, interesting, and can juice or coconut water? Coconut water.
• 17:13
  If you're in life with a postcard, describe the picture to me. I just saw sunshine when you said that.
• 17:19
  Oh. I saw sunshine, I saw beach, and just tranquillity. That's how I'd been, my postcard would be that.
• 17:27
  Amazing. Thank you. That was the first of all the cancel lunch, so I hope that works.
• 17:31
  Thank you very much. You're welcome. Thank you for having.
• 17:36
  You