Latest / Harvest After Sunday / Biblical Counseling: Guest Speaker Nick DeBenedetto
Transcript
- Soul Care Counseling Harvest DNA: Welcome to the Harvest After Sunday podcast. I'm Natalie and I'm your host. And today I am here with Nick De Benedetto, who is our pastor of Soul Care here at Harvest. Nick, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. We are so glad to have you, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation. You and I get a lot of opportunities to chat and connect these days as we discuss and plan and pray through things in our biblical counseling ministry, which I love the opportunity to do. But if you would just start off by maybe explaining what is a pastor of soul care, what is your role here at Harvest? Well soul care can be challenging because it it's not functional necessarily in its its title or description. but what it really conveys or at least its application at church is counseling and from a biblical perspective. And so you're dealing with the spiritual side of issues and then care and all other forms of care that the church needs to come alongside somebody, whether it's something very tangible like helping someone move or driving someone to a doctor's appointment or there could be benevolence as a component of that, any of the other more physical forms of care. So we've got both covered underneath soul care. Okay. That's so helpful. And a lot of our conversation today is going to be on the the counseling side of things, the biblical counseling. And I'm excited to talk about that. I think that a lot of our listeners will have an idea of what they think counseling is. You know, it's certainly a a term that we're familiar with hearing. It's a secular term. Counseling, therapy, we hear about these things, maybe we're involved in them or considering pursuing them. Do I need a to see a counselor? Do I need to see a therapist? So I wanna and I'll just go ahead and give our listeners an idea of what's to come in our conversation today. and say I I hope to address a lot of really practical questions like first of all, what is what is biblical counseling? How is it different than what we might understand as secular counseling, seeing a counselor or therapist, even if they call themselves a a Christian counselor, what that might mean and some of those nuances that can become really important when you're seeking. information, counsel, advice, care from someone to know really where that counsel is gonna be, what the source of the counsel is. why we I'd love to talk about you know why people might go outside of the church, outside of their own biblical church community for counsel. is that wrong if they're gonna seek biblical Counseling here at Harvest, what that might look like. So that's kind of a lot. That's just to give a kind of fly overview. So let's start by just saying what is biblical counseling? So biblical counseling is what it sounds like from the standpoint of it's biblically based. It is based in the Word of God. So it differs from Christian counseling from the aspect of in a Christian counseling setting, typically the counselor is licensed by the state. That means they've had to learn a state platform and they're given permission to give Christian insight if the counselee expresses a desire to have that form of of wisdom applied within the context of their counseling time. Biblical counseling says no we we're gonna base this completely on the Bible, the authority of God. Is seen out and comes to bear on our lives and particularly in our heart issues. So biblical counseling is going to incorporate God into all areas. Christian counseling, because it's a state-based platform, it's a humanities of sorts. So it's it's man trying to understand man without the the concept, the idea, the reality. of we're created by God. So it's man's best attempt and I think it's a a worthy attempt, but it's an attempt that will always fall a little short at least because God isn't in the equation. He's not in e understanding how we were created, what we were created for, what how how the fall played a role and why we struggle now today to act out of our design with with some sense of integrity. So the biblical counseling is really trying to get to the heart of the matter, and that's not just something cute to say. It's really trying to dig down to what is driving the behavior. You may come in with a behavior that you've identified that, hey, I I want counseling for this reason. But the reality is, is biblical counseling isn't going to go after a solution. Biblical co counseling is going to look at, okay, what is is going on in your heart that you find this overwhelming or maybe you are contributing or maybe you are the actual source of the conflict. And so it there's there's so much more hope involved with biblical counseling because it's really getting to the source of all of our sin from the very beginning with Adam and Eve when we decided that we wanted to be autonomous from God. We wanted to be our own gods. So we have fallen hearts that are driving us Even as Christians. yes, we are cr now a new creation in Christ Jesus, but we have those old ways, the the the ways that we taught were taught by way of experience in life. Or we have the old ways of thinking that we learned through schooling, whether that's the lower end of the spectrum of schooling or even the the greater platforms of of college and whatnot that have got us to think in a worldly manner. And we don't even realize that they're in conflict with what the biblical truths are. Mm-hmm. We agree with the biblical truths, but when it comes down to applying those truths in our lives and living a a functionally I'll say a a functional gospel, we follow a different gospel. It's the world's gospel, which is a false gospel. And we don't realize it because we're well intended. We we we've we of course believe this, but we haven't connected it to yeah, but not actually living out those truths. We're falling to old ways of thinking, old ways of doing. So biblical counseling goes deeper, looking to have God do the transforming work. Yeah, I think there's some really significant differences that you touched on throughout that explanation and I just wanna highlight and I wanna I wanna be careful not to say anything negative about licensed counselors or therapists especially are believing brothers and sisters that might be serving in those roles. We have some in our church who are gifted and God honoring people. They use their talents and their knowledge to help and to serve. And so I wanna highlight the distinctions between the frameworks of something that's based in psychology and you know being licensed in counseling like you were talking about versus the approach of biblical counseling. and some of the things that I heard as you were describing that is first of all, the source of our problem, like the way that we're looking at the source of our presenting problem is gonna be different when we're having a biblical counseling approach versus just a counseling or a therap maybe a more therapeutic approach, a psychology-based approach. And not only the the way we view the problem, but also also the way we view the solutions. and understanding things like our sin nature, our own contribution to what becomes a presenting problem, honoring God in the way we respond, seeing God's word as sufficient to offer practical hope and help, as you mentioned. Hope is a huge thing, but there is is practical instruction and help in God's word as well. instead of just viewing things strictly through a psychological lens, a humanities-based lens where we've separated ourselves from God as our creator, God is the solution for our problems. so really at every aspect of the process we're seeing kind of a separation from God and His Word and the way we understand our problems, the way we understand our solutions, the way we involve God in our in the solutions. Biblical counseling, we're saying he is our only source of help in our, you know, with our own sin. in the middle midst of our suffering, where and I've been to a licensed counselor who is a Christian and like you said, another important distinction, they are only permitted to introduce, you know, biblical concepts with your permission as the counselee. So a lot of differences in those approaches. And it's just important for people to understand that as they decide what they're going to pursue. for help if they're gonna pursue counseling and understand some of the significant differences in those approaches, I think. Absolutely. You know, to your point about the value of Christians in psychology, yes they're limited by what they can do and interact with on a on a spiritual level with the individual based on the i the the person they're counseling, giving them permission. But from this context, if if you knew that your neighbor was had murderous inclinations and they were going to a counselor, whether that counselor was a Christian who was t stu taught on the state platform or someone who's not a Christian and taught on the state platform, there's value for them going to that counselor because that counselor is going to teach them coping mechanisms. Now coping mechanisms fall short of transformation, but coping mechanisms help them deal with such things as anger. It's not gonna get to the core issue. It's gonna teach them how to cope with it so that anger isn't expressed in such a destructive way. So absolutely, I do not mean to put down or to demean in any way or to take away any value of of the state platform counseling. It it has value in our society. I'm just saying from a Christian perspective, the Christian would want to go to that ultimate source issue which is our heart that's driving it and allow God to do the work of transforming the heart. So, I just hope that I'm able to con communicate appreciation for for people out in the field, involved in psychology. You know, I I've been been asked a number of times, well do you are you against psychology? And my my comment is, look, as a biblical counselor, we don't have a database that we can go to and look up various behaviors and you know, th when people are in this situation they typically do this, this and this and this. Psychology does a wonderful job of observing and collecting that data. It's something that we don't have in the biblical counseling world. We have to rely on the skill set of the and the knowledge of the counselor to to know and have enough experience with that. so that's a huge advantage for the for me to hear what counseling, excuse me, what psychology has made in the way of observations about people's behavior helpful for me. Yeah. I I can know where the person who is experiencing grief. I can know where they how that typical person processes it. I can know with and when I say processes it, the s the stages they they might work through. So when they come in we have s similarity in communication. Same thing where where it might be with anything else that whether it's anger and it and it's destructive patterns that it might f take moving downward into more and more destructive patterns, it's helpful to know and psychology can provide that. Where I don't rely on psychol psychology is for the answer. The ultimate transforming answer. Because I only go to God because as Christians we know He is the ultimate source for those answers. Yeah. I think it's so good to get granular like that and give people examples like grief, like anger, and understanding the patterns in those processes where we can have helpful advice. I I maybe would it be an accurate statement to say that we believe God's word is is sufficient for our transformation. But we're not claiming that it's comprehensive in the way that it explicitly addresses every human scenario or pattern in the way that we might s see more information through our observable world. maybe, you know, and we can see clearly how all kinds of fields, medical fields and education, have observed things, been, you know, added information that can be helpful to us. But what I hear you saying very clearly is that the true source of our hope and our transformation is in God alone and we can know him through his word. And so that would be the real core and foundation of the framework of biblical counseling. Absolutely. Okay. let's talk a little bit about what it looks like specifically even here at Harvest. I I'm wondering again, like if people are thinking, okay, we look to God's word, we look to scripture for hope, for help, I'm gonna be transformed. I'd like to tease out a little bit, you know, how is maybe your role as a bib biblical counselor or pastor of soul care different from just typical pastoral care and shepherding? And even how biblical counseling and being transformed by God's word, if that's the ultimate goal, is different from just discipleship, kind of w what are the nuances of these things? Sure. sometimes you'll hear the preaching of the word as the public administration of the gospel. You're administering it to the public in a in a public setting. And counseling is more of the private administering. It's the discipleship model in a more intentional format of one on one discipleship. Or if it's a a couple, you might have one counselor or you could have two in the room and and two there. But the idea is we're getting as the term you used earlier, we're getting granular. 'Cause when you're when you're preaching, you're teaching it's the the Communication is going one way and you're not sure how they're processing the information. What happens in the in a and I I want to make sure that we understand that all counseling is discipleship. Okay. so that we don't see it as some something other that is you know, the other the ordinary person can't do it. Yeah, according to the Bible, we can do it because we have the authority and the the clarity of God's word. It takes a little you you'll find that I'll say it this way, you'll find you you are better at it if I if I can s put in that context as you exp as you work through it. So you get a little more honed, a little more refined, as you study more. So that's the that's the part where the biblical counseling comes in. you know, I've got the schooling and the the seminary schooling to do that. some of the other people that are have read the books are getting certified by one of the counseling organizations are certified means they're they're getting their skill set tested to see, hey, do you understand the the importance and function of identity in the counseling room? Or do you understand the concept of surrender and how surrender works as a a form of trust and what that looks like. you know, the the various aspects. What about a a gospel that is different than the actual gospel you you confess And you know to be true, but you fall into it your old way, and which is really a performative gospel. And so the the counselor is helping to the individual see these realities by interacting with them on a very personal practical level. Okay, tell me about this, and they give that information, and then the counselor is able to to go into deeper detail and then pull that detail towards the heart. And ask such questions like, Okay, what were you thinking when that happened? What were you feeling? What were you wanting? Maybe what were you even fearing or valuing? And all of a sudden the person's gone, Well, I I've never been asked that question. And so the the certainly all the pastors have the ability to to do this. It's just the time spent doing it where you see it start to get a little more honed, just like more preaching makes you a better preacher. Yeah. So it's it's same s the same philosophy. Yeah, I think that's so helpful. And when you were explaining that and just how someone who's honing their skill and has a natural gifting from the Lord, but that they've honed in and are using in this specific way. In the counseling room, I think of Proverbs twenty five, which is the purpose in a man's heart is like deep water and a man of understanding will draw it out. And you talked about that early on, how instead of maybe like other secular or psychological models just evaluating a presenting problem and then what are some practical solutions, we are investigating the heart and what is truly what we're truly desiring, fearing, what's motivating us. That's what we're doing in the in the counseling room, in an intentional discipleship. And there are people who are skilled at drawing out those purposes. And so I think that's such a helpful thing to think about when we think Of engaging in deep one on one discipleship, biblical counseling is having someone that we're seeking their help in drawing out what's in our heart in their heart. And I'm so thankful that the Lord has brought you back to harvest. maybe tell us a little bit too, just to give people a background your kind of history from your call to ministry and pastoral care and how that's maybe looked different throughout the years and when you heard of biblical counseling, kind of pursued that aspect of pastoral care specifically. Sure. I was a lay pa pastor elder here and talked to the wife about hey I started seminary early on in the two thousands and then she reminded me we have six children and they're young and she could use some help. So, you know, two thousand and eleven came around I said, Hey what do think about going back and I think I wanna change it from leadership to Christian I was using the word Christian at that time, Christian counseling. Christian counseling and I came I was here and I was it was at one of all f our fall harvest events that we had and I was manning a door, staffing a door at and I was signed with Jeremy Oliver who used to who re when I left he replaced me as the pastor of counseling. and I s I said to him, Hey, you you know, you've got seminary training And what would you recommend? And he goes, What are you looking for? And I said, Well, I I'm looking for the right seminary to do to get into the area of of Christian counseling. Well this conversation went on and every time I said Christian counseling, he'd say biblical counseling. And I mean that tells you, I mean, here we are in twenty twenty six, but in twenty twenty eleven I'm like, Why is it every time I say Christian you correct me with with biblical counseling? He goes, 'Cause they're not the same thing. I go, What do you mean they're not the same thing? So he explained it to me. And I I was ex what I shared with you is what he shared with me. And I I saw that and I thought, I I want that And so, I got into seminary at Faith Seminary in Lafayette, Indiana and finished my degree in that and then the Lord d I'll I'll say this, that I started out here as a small group pastor. I wasn't the counseling pastor. Well, when you get into small groups, you get in people's lives. Mm. And people are coming to me, the small group leaders, and I don't have answers. That's a terrible feeling. And so I realized I've gotta have more and this made sense that this area of ministry. So I enjoyed learning growing. There's growing pains in that because you you sensed it. You're like, I've been I've got all this information. Where do I start? Where do I you know, do I start with this idol or do I am I should I be empathizing and and dealing more with the suffering at here? So I I grew in that. until the point of twenty twenty sixteen, you know, I I got my certification through Association of Biblical Counselors. A C B C Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. There we A lot of letters. Yeah, missing a few letters. and then after that I just had a passion to learn how to preach 'cause now I I could see the value of preaching to someone, sharing the gospel with them one on one. And I really felt a a calling to increase that skill and to maybe be a preaching pastor. So I went back to seminary and got my Masters of Divinity, planted a a church along the way and did that for from twenty sixteen to twenty twenty five last fall. And then I stepped back from that and started really taking a deeper dive back into counseling. it was something that I've always felt called to, always felt like I got a front row seat to transformation in people's lives. I love that. Yeah. And so it was it's very encouraging to your own walk. I find I'm a better husband. I'm you know, I'm a better father when I'm counseling others because you're constantly dealing with these biblical truths and you gotta have the integrity to communicate them. so got back into it and looking at it and I I'd seen some things that had gotten really even better in the studies this is a if I can use this in a Christian study, an evolving situation where really in the early seventies we started seeing biblical counseling being reintroduced back into the churches. No longer were the churches referring out to the professionals that were the the the psychologists or psychiatrists. The the church was like, Wait, wait, wait, wait, they're not teaching them a a biblical persp perspective. they're not trained on that. We need we we have outsourced something we shouldn't be outsourcing. And I'm not saying all of it. I'm I'm not again I'm not saying that it's not valuable to have psychology out there doing what it's doing. But we have a role and we need to step up. We can't outsource that role. So with that I I I saw where there's even more of a greater emphasis on understanding the heart than when I had originally finished my degree track as far as the biblical counseling side of things in twenty sixteen. wow, even in the past ten years. Yes. So I it stirred in me, Well, I gotta I gotta know this. And I'm I'm reading these articles and I'm I'm reading books and I'm like, these men and women know more than I do now. I I'm I'm seeing how they're they're digging down into the heart with the right questions, that I didn't ha I wasn't didn't have those questions as tools, if you will. And that's that drawing out of the deep water the heart. And so I feel like I I I n you know, in God's providence I'm back into this area and I love it. and it I feel like I'm I'm more equipped now, having spent from you know, f l fall of twenty twenty six until coming back to harvest in February, no fall of twenty twenty five until February of twenty twenty six where I'm back in my role. And even so, I'm like a hungry student again. You I'm constantly reading articles on different websites and whatnot. I've I've got a couple of of counselors that are I just think of them as mentors f from afar. you know, people out there that are authors that really seem to have a great understanding of how to get to the heart. So here I am. It is totally a testimony of God's providence and even just thinking of the fact that you left you and Cindy left in twenty sixteen and me and my family came later in twenty sixteen and that these ten years would pass. and I was so, so encouraged, not only to hear you were coming back and into this role, but the timing of it. it's so evident that the Lord had been just working in his timing and we get these little glimpses. But as Katie and I have been pursuing our counseling certification for really several years now and then reached a point where it was so evident that you know, the need for a mi a counseling ministry at our church was was there and we hadn't had someone on staff in several years and and we were kind of faithfully just pursuing more training. Like you said, it's all there's so much that we can learn and continue to grow and be equipped and be trained and that's so good. But it was just so clear we were kind of at a pause of needing someone to oversee this ministry and someone trained and experienced and wise and then you know, within sixty days it was announced that you were coming back into this role. And I'm just so thankful to the Lord. and I hope that people continue to see and experience for themselves the gift of God's grace to us through biblical counseling. and I would love to talk about, as people are listening, how they might know if they should consider seeking biblical counseling. I mean, you kind of touched on living life with people and it sounds like things kind of emerge in people's lives. You talked about being a small group leader. That sounds like a very natural place for things to emerge as people develop relationships with one another. there is trust there and accountability and transparency and things emerge in our lives and they need some help and counsel. certainly being in a community of believers. We've talked about this at length on on these podcast episodes, the different ways that that's important and instructed and commanded. And so how might someone in our church family listening now be be thinking about if that is the next right step for them at this time? Sure. certainly the ideal way is through an interaction with your small group leader. and and finding and assessing, hey, you know, I feel like I'm stuck. I'm I'm I'm not progressing, I'm in this area of conflict or I'm suffering in this way and I I've tried this, I've tried that, I I'm not sure what else to do. And if the small group leader is feeling like this is beyond my capability, this needs more intentional discipleship, then that's an easy, hey, let's go talk to Pastor Nick and see. Because it might be something that, I'll say most of the time it's something that it should be seen by a counselor. And sometimes you can you can listen to it and and realize it's not as bad as they perceived it. And there are there are smaller heart issues that can be addressed. And it can be addressed in a small group setting if the small group leader knows. So it doesn't always mean that it'll be counseling, but the nice thing is you have somebody to go to to ask. go to the the counseling pastor, the soul care pastor, and it's no burden to for me to meet with somebody. This is the front row seat of the of this person's life and what God's gonna do in it. So it's just a it's an opportunity for me to hear, listen well. The church has been very gracious to me as far as giving me enough room to be able to do that, to be able to assess you know, and assess from a standpoint of the you put on my I put on my other hat of the caring ministry, is this outside of something else? And if it's it or can it be handled through some other form of care? And if not, is this a spiritual issue? And if it's a spiritual issue, what's the depth of it? Is the person stuck in it? Like like Galatians one talks about. and if they are and they don't know how to get out of it, that's my role. And that's the role of our biblical counselors. And you're one of them being trained up. So you know that and y and you know, it's when you have been gifted a certain way, it's not a burden. It's a gift that you get to use to edify the church. And so, it's it's I would just say come talk. Yeah. And just run it run it by the your if you needed someone else, like another pastor to listen or as as an initial filter because you know that pastor better or You've got a friend that's mature in the faith and you run it past them and they go, Man, I I think that's beyond me. I think you might need to go talk to Pastor Nick. Come talk to me. Yeah. Yeah. I think you said a couple of times when people are feeling like they're stuck, I think that could mean so so many things. And you touched on some of them. Sometimes we're in a season of of suffering. and there's a h heaviness and a burden and and we're not sure how to move through that, maybe. there are times of certainly relational. conflict that comes up. I mean, we understand that if we have been on earth for a day or two, we understand there is gonna be conflict in relationships and in marriages, in families, in parenting, in work, in friendships in the church. You know, these are all relationships and and there can be issues of life dominating sin patterns and we can feel stuck in that. We can feel stuck in our kind of it you mentioned like our sanctification, our spiritual growth and the importance of going to a man of understanding, a man or woman who understands the truths of God's word and can draw it out from the heart and say, Yeah, let's assess and evaluate and investigate what's going on in your heart. And I've I've just found it so encouraging to see God give everything we need for life and godliness from his unlimited resources and even as I step into a counseling and discipleship role, knowing very well my own weaknesses and shortcomings and lack of knowledge, to see him provide over and over. And I'm I continually come back to when I think of counseling and discipleship, Colossians three, sixteen, the second part of the verse, which says, Teach and counsel one another with all the wisdom he gives. And it's such a good reminder for me because I don't have to come up with all my own, you know, smart opinions and a hot take and have all the best piece of advice for someone. I need to rely on the wisdom of God. He gave it. And so I go to God and I and I say, you know, these are his truths. It's his wisdom. It's from the word of God. He is doing the work at in people's hearts and I get to be a part of it. but it the burden does not rest on me to be the most, you know, equipped person in the room. The Lord is gonna equip me. and it and like you said, it it's really a privilege to get a front row seat to people's hearts and lives and their transformation and to see it's grown my faith to see God convicting, encouraging, teaching, transforming. hearts and it's it's really such a significant and special thing to be a part of. I'm so thankful that our counseling ministry here is growing at Harvest. I'm so thankful that the Lord brought you back to this church body. so interesting how he works and moves in his timing. And I love that you said that counseling is discipleship. Like there are so there's so much when we think of discipleship. Counseling is is a kind of discipleship. And so I want people to think about that and remember and just prayerfully consider as they do weekly when they tune in with us, Lord, what is the next step that that you would have me take in pursuing godliness, in growing my affection for Christ and allowing that and the truth of your word to transform my heart and my life. So thanks for joining us today, Nick. It's such a great opportunity to talk to you and learn more about your role here in your ministry in your heart. And thank you for joining us for the Harvest After Sunday podcast, where we help you grow into the image of Christ by applying the truths of his word for his mission. We'll see you Sunday.