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Common Ground + Attorney Therapy · Business Brain – The Entrepreneurs’ Podcast

• 0:00
  Dave Hamilton: Business Brain episode 750 for Wednesday, May 6th, National Tourist Appreciation Day, 2026.
• 0:09
  Dave Hamilton: Welcome back. I'm back. All right.
• 0:12
  Shannon Jean: I love tourists.
• 0:13
  Dave Hamilton: Of course. Tourists are good for business.
• 0:16
  Shannon Jean: Well, I think the locals don't like tourists as much. They like their money,
• 0:19
  Shannon Jean: but they don't like the inconvenience.
• 0:21
  Dave Hamilton: I don't know, man. I'm having them. I live in a college town. Oh, yeah. Like, yeah.
• 0:26
  Shannon Jean: It's a business brain brain.
• 0:37
  Dave Hamilton: Greetings and welcome to Business Brain, the show where we take some ideas,
• 0:40
  Dave Hamilton: we crunch them, we dissect them, we use them to tune our business brains so
• 0:44
  Dave Hamilton: we can each keep on living that charmed life.
• 0:47
  Dave Hamilton: Our sponsors for this episode include granola.ai slash brain,
• 0:52
  Dave Hamilton: where you can try granola totally free for three months. It's this AI-powered
• 0:57
  Dave Hamilton: notepad. It's super awesome.
• 0:58
  Dave Hamilton: I'm using it on everything. and bitdefender.com slash brain.
• 1:02
  Dave Hamilton: You can keep your small business safe with Bitdefender Ultimate Small Business
• 1:05
  Dave Hamilton: Security and save 30% at that link.
• 1:08
  Dave Hamilton: We'll talk more about those, both of them, in a little bit. For now,
• 1:11
  Dave Hamilton: as usual, here in Durham, New Hampshire, I'm Dave Hamilton.
• 1:14
  Shannon Jean: And out here in Northern California, I'm Shannon Jean. How are you doing.
• 1:17
  Dave Hamilton: Man? Yeah, good. Yeah, weekend was good. I'm doing good. Yeah, rocking around. Yep.
• 1:22
  Shannon Jean: I sat around a bunch of campfires this weekend up at our river house.
• 1:26
  Shannon Jean: Yeah, it was awesome. And one thing I love about Campfire is it just kind of
• 1:32
  Shannon Jean: brings people together and you always share stories and talk about things and
• 1:37
  Shannon Jean: memories, which I really love.
• 1:38
  Shannon Jean: And it got me thinking about the power of finding common things to talk about.
• 1:48
  Dave Hamilton: Right?
• 1:48
  Shannon Jean: Oh, yeah, sure. It's very powerful in your business as well, right?
• 1:54
  Shannon Jean: From everybody from the UPS driver to the guy you rent the building from to
• 2:02
  Shannon Jean: your other employees to everybody finding common ground.
• 2:07
  Shannon Jean: And it reminded me that I'm not, unlike my son and my wife, I don't internalize
• 2:16
  Shannon Jean: a lot of sports information.
• 2:18
  Dave Hamilton: Okay.
• 2:18
  Shannon Jean: Like, I couldn't tell you the name or the number on the back of a jersey of
• 2:23
  Shannon Jean: a particular player if my life depended on it. Sure. I just, I don't know.
• 2:27
  Dave Hamilton: It's just not your thing. Sure.
• 2:28
  Shannon Jean: It's not my thing. However...
• 2:31
  Shannon Jean: I realized early on in business, sports is a great way to connect with people.
• 2:39
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah, it's better than the weather.
• 2:41
  Shannon Jean: Way better. Weather's an old man way to do it. Correct. Like,
• 2:45
  Shannon Jean: how's the weather out there?
• 2:46
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:47
  Shannon Jean: But sports is huge. So I did this thing, and I didn't really realize it at the
• 2:53
  Shannon Jean: time, but I started during interviews, I would always ask, oh, do you like sports?
• 2:59
  Shannon Jean: Are you into sports? what's your team and what do you like?
• 3:02
  Shannon Jean: And I wound up hiring particularly one guy that I'm thinking of now who became
• 3:10
  Shannon Jean: like our connector all around sports.
• 3:15
  Shannon Jean: Everybody from the FedEx rep that would come and they'd talk sports and then
• 3:21
  Shannon Jean: he'd wind up giving us tickets, right?
• 3:23
  Shannon Jean: Or to the FedEx driver who you talk about your team and how the game was that
• 3:27
  Shannon Jean: weekend. and you, there's real power in it.
• 3:31
  Shannon Jean: So, because you want the FedEx guy to make another trip when there's a Newton's
• 3:36
  Shannon Jean: shipment or to go the extra mile.
• 3:38
  Shannon Jean: And you want the FedEx rep to give you better rates and you want your landlord to be cool.
• 3:44
  Shannon Jean: And sports is one of those ways that I think people, you connect with people
• 3:50
  Shannon Jean: and they're like, hey, that guy's cool.
• 3:51
  Shannon Jean: Or that lady, that gal really knows her stuff, man. She's like,
• 3:56
  Shannon Jean: my wife's a crazy San Francisco Giants fan. And she could tell you everything about them, all stuff.
• 4:02
  Shannon Jean: So I have my note here for this episode. It was bad at sports, so I just hired a guy.
• 4:12
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah. Oh, there you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yep.
• 4:15
  Shannon Jean: And so I think you can think about it in a way that,
• 4:23
  Shannon Jean: bringing people into your team that have the skill to connect with other people.
• 4:28
  Shannon Jean: Oh, sure. I couldn't have that conversation on Monday morning about,
• 4:32
  Shannon Jean: I could generalize, like, oh, 49ers, and I could kind of, you know,
• 4:36
  Shannon Jean: I could BS my way through it enough.
• 4:39
  Shannon Jean: But to really sit down and talk about the team and your players,
• 4:45
  Shannon Jean: having a guy that was good at that in our building, and he became our general
• 4:50
  Shannon Jean: manager, it was awesome. because he could connect with the warehouse staff.
• 4:53
  Shannon Jean: Like I said, the drivers, the sales reps that came, it just cuts like the...
• 4:59
  Dave Hamilton: Oh, no, it humanizes everyone. Yeah, it humanizes it. It's what happens, right?
• 5:03
  Dave Hamilton: When you have that thing that... Finding a topic that...
• 5:09
  Dave Hamilton: You and the other person you're talking with
• 5:12
  Dave Hamilton: can be nerds about right that's the way i
• 5:14
  Dave Hamilton: think about this and sports that's right sports is a pretty good one
• 5:17
  Dave Hamilton: especially if you're doing things locally right when you're dealing with people
• 5:22
  Dave Hamilton: uh in other other states or you know other other parts of the country or certainly
• 5:27
  Dave Hamilton: other parts of the world it sports sometimes can can get a little weird because
• 5:32
  Dave Hamilton: it's like well you don't like my team i don't like your team i don't know anything but That
• 5:35
  Shannon Jean: Can be used as useful as well. It can.
• 5:39
  Dave Hamilton: I find, and this is just me, I mean, it's going to be no great surprise,
• 5:44
  Dave Hamilton: but I find the same thing about music. You know, what was the last concert you saw?
• 5:49
  Dave Hamilton: What bands do you like? What was the last thing you listened to?
• 5:52
  Dave Hamilton: You know, that kind of thing.
• 5:54
  Dave Hamilton: And that, you know, really just getting people to talk about something that
• 6:00
  Dave Hamilton: they are interested in, that they are passionate about.
• 6:03
  Dave Hamilton: And then being able to hold your own in that conversation, right?
• 6:07
  Dave Hamilton: Like, you know, you don't necessarily, I don't even know that you needed to
• 6:11
  Dave Hamilton: hire the sports guy, right?
• 6:13
  Shannon Jean: Well, it just kind of turned out that way.
• 6:15
  Dave Hamilton: But you can hold your own in a conversation and let somebody teach you something, right?
• 6:22
  Dave Hamilton: And then that, oh, you know, like I like that Shannon guy.
• 6:25
  Dave Hamilton: He listens to me when I talk. Nobody thinks about that. But that's the important thing is that. Yeah.
• 6:31
  Shannon Jean: Yeah. The connection. It's tougher as the business owner, but when you have,
• 6:35
  Shannon Jean: I almost felt like, because we
• 6:37
  Shannon Jean: were on the same team, this guy was kind of running interference for me.
• 6:40
  Shannon Jean: Yes, for sure. He was connecting at a whole other level, because when the owner
• 6:45
  Shannon Jean: walks in the room or the warehouse, it's so frequent that people just stop talking.
• 6:49
  Shannon Jean: It's like, oh, here comes that guy. Yep. You know, and it's unfortunate.
• 6:54
  Dave Hamilton: No, but it's just how it is. It's reality. Yeah.
• 6:56
  Shannon Jean: It's reality, man. Yeah. It's the way it is. So I think you can hire it,
• 7:04
  Shannon Jean: I think asking the sports question, or like you said, are you into music?
• 7:08
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah.
• 7:08
  Shannon Jean: Whatever.
• 7:09
  Dave Hamilton: What's your favorite band?
• 7:10
  Shannon Jean: What's your favorite band? Are you, like I have friends that don't listen to
• 7:14
  Shannon Jean: anything beyond like the 2000s. Sure.
• 7:18
  Shannon Jean: They're stuck in the 80s and 90s. I shouldn't say stuck, but that's their genre.
• 7:21
  Dave Hamilton: That's where they choose to be.
• 7:23
  Shannon Jean: Yeah. Where they choose to be versus.
• 7:24
  Dave Hamilton: You know. I think they say you're, generally speaking, and of course there's
• 7:28
  Dave Hamilton: exceptions to this rule, But your your sort of your taste in music doesn't evolve
• 7:36
  Dave Hamilton: past the age of about 30, maybe 35.
• 7:40
  Dave Hamilton: Like, that's it. Like your music connects you to your your formative years.
• 7:45
  Dave Hamilton: And a lot of people don't have, you know, music's one of those things.
• 7:48
  Dave Hamilton: It's a very emotional, like reactions and all that stuff.
• 7:51
  Dave Hamilton: And there's there's associations with, oh, when that song came out, this was happening.
• 7:55
  Dave Hamilton: When this song came out, that was happening. and you know by the
• 7:58
  Dave Hamilton: time you're about 35 there's not like i don't feel any
• 8:01
  Dave Hamilton: different than i did when i was 35 i say that i'm
• 8:04
  Dave Hamilton: sure i feel much worse than i was 35 but like
• 8:07
  Dave Hamilton: i don't think like my internal age is about
• 8:10
  Dave Hamilton: 35 it's like because nothing like what happens
• 8:13
  Dave Hamilton: after that like it's there's no significant like things for most people to like
• 8:19
  Dave Hamilton: set milestones i mean you know you had your kids certainly your kids leave the
• 8:23
  Dave Hamilton: house but then it's like whatever but you know like those things that define
• 8:26
  Dave Hamilton: you tend to all happen by the time you've hit your mid-30s. Yeah, that's interesting.
• 8:31
  Shannon Jean: Yeah, I don't know.
• 8:32
  Dave Hamilton: But anyway, you were saying you have friends that are stuck in the 80s musically, which is fine.
• 8:38
  Shannon Jean: Yeah, and I always ask, I'm like, well, how about let's listen to this,
• 8:41
  Shannon Jean: and nobody knows the name of these bands. I was like, because I like lots of new music.
• 8:45
  Shannon Jean: I like the old stuff too. Sure, sure. But I found that I tend to forget about...
• 8:53
  Shannon Jean: I don't have the best memory in the world, and I feel like I've lived phases
• 8:57
  Shannon Jean: of life where, okay, like you're saying, in your 30s, when that was done, that was done.
• 9:03
  Shannon Jean: And then I was in my 40s, and then when that was done, I was like,
• 9:06
  Shannon Jean: well, I don't really think about it much anymore.
• 9:09
  Shannon Jean: And I think that's actually helped me a lot because— That's.
• 9:13
  Dave Hamilton: A whole other conversation. I never understood when friends would say,
• 9:20
  Dave Hamilton: oh, I remember in 1987, that's when we did this. And it's like,
• 9:23
  Dave Hamilton: I have, I remember a lot of specific things.
• 9:26
  Dave Hamilton: Like I, like I drive my family crazy.
• 9:30
  Dave Hamilton: Like we'll, they'll say, Oh yeah. Remember we went to that, that concert at
• 9:33
  Dave Hamilton: Fenway park. I'm like, Oh yeah. The band opened with this song.
• 9:36
  Dave Hamilton: They closed with this one. There was this thing. And they're like,
• 9:37
  Dave Hamilton: how do you, I don't, I don't know.
• 9:39
  Dave Hamilton: Like this is the things I remember, but the year that it happened,
• 9:42
  Dave Hamilton: like if you told me the year, I believe you.
• 9:44
  Dave Hamilton: But if you asked me for the year, I'd have to really think and triangulate.
• 9:48
  Dave Hamilton: Like, okay. Like I don't think about things that way. And I,
• 9:51
  Dave Hamilton: there might be. No, I don't either.
• 9:52
  Shannon Jean: I have a very forward, in the moment looking...
• 9:56
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah, I know this happened in the past because I remember it. That's all I know.
• 10:01
  Shannon Jean: We do need to dig into that a little
• 10:03
  Shannon Jean: more because I think there's an entrepreneurial type of thing there.
• 10:06
  Dave Hamilton: I wonder. For sure. I wonder.
• 10:08
  Shannon Jean: I think there might be. We're going to look at that deeper.
• 10:11
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• 10:16
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• 10:21
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• 11:42
  Dave Hamilton: And you know that moment when a meeting ends and somebody says,
• 11:46
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• 11:48
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• 13:13
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• 13:17
  Dave Hamilton: I was talking to a friend recently, Shannon, about they were going through this
• 13:23
  Dave Hamilton: thing and it was actually about to go through like a divorce and they were, you know,
• 13:30
  Dave Hamilton: hiring an attorney, which is not something they typically do.
• 13:34
  Dave Hamilton: And and i i found myself sharing
• 13:37
  Dave Hamilton: a piece of advice and as soon as i did i was like oh wait a
• 13:40
  Dave Hamilton: minute like this we need to talk about this on the show because i
• 13:44
  Dave Hamilton: you know as as someone who's been through a few legal scenarios like lawsuits
• 13:49
  Dave Hamilton: yes but also just you know you need your lawyer to draft some documents for
• 13:55
  Dave Hamilton: you or do whatever it might be right you know um i've learned the hard way that
• 14:01
  Dave Hamilton: lawyers can be very expensive therapists.
• 14:04
  Dave Hamilton: Let me explain what I mean.
• 14:07
  Dave Hamilton: When I'm going through something like that, especially a lawsuit,
• 14:11
  Dave Hamilton: but really anything where you're trying to be careful, there's something going
• 14:15
  Dave Hamilton: on that matters to you, whatever that might be.
• 14:18
  Dave Hamilton: And therefore, I want someone to talk with in a supportive way,
• 14:24
  Dave Hamilton: somebody who understands, somebody that's going to be a good listener,
• 14:28
  Dave Hamilton: but also that's going to give it to me straight.
• 14:31
  Dave Hamilton: And lawyers are very good at all of this. The problem is their hourly rate.
• 14:37
  Shannon Jean: Yeah, I was going to say, they're very good, but very expensive.
• 14:39
  Dave Hamilton: Very expensive. That's what I mean. They're very expensive therapists.
• 14:41
  Dave Hamilton: I don't mean to say they're bad therapists.
• 14:43
  Dave Hamilton: They might be, for your scenario, they might be an excellent therapist.
• 14:47
  Dave Hamilton: But, you know, if your lawyer's charging you $3.50 an hour that you cannot submit
• 14:52
  Dave Hamilton: to your health insurance, and a therapist would charge you maybe, you know,
• 14:57
  Dave Hamilton: $15 as a copay or even $50 as a copay, or even $85, and you're not paying,
• 15:04
  Dave Hamilton: you know, insurance isn't involved.
• 15:06
  Dave Hamilton: It's still way cheaper in most cases.
• 15:09
  Dave Hamilton: Friends are even less expensive. Business therapy, which we are happy to do
• 15:14
  Dave Hamilton: for you here, it's free, right?
• 15:16
  Dave Hamilton: So, but it's, the temptation, because you're already talking about this thing
• 15:23
  Dave Hamilton: with your attorney, I find it super easy.
• 15:27
  Dave Hamilton: Even when I know going in, like, don't let the attorney become your therapist.
• 15:30
  Dave Hamilton: I wind up talking to him and it's like, oh, there was another 10 minutes.
• 15:33
  Dave Hamilton: And it's like and you know that 10 minutes just cost you a fortune so yeah and
• 15:38
  Dave Hamilton: they're right there with you they know everything like yeah it's easy to do
• 15:42
  Shannon Jean: This and i i yeah and often when you're working with attorneys maybe you're
• 15:47
  Shannon Jean: stressed and your anxiety level could be high because you're going through stuff
• 15:52
  Shannon Jean: for sure you need you need help uh figuring out and so,
• 15:57
  Shannon Jean: Yeah, it's very natural to discuss it with them and to let it go.
• 16:02
  Shannon Jean: And when you mentioned this topic before we started recording today's show,
• 16:05
  Shannon Jean: my first thought was, oh, yeah, that's a definite lesson I learned,
• 16:10
  Shannon Jean: you know, as a much younger business owner. Yeah.
• 16:13
  Shannon Jean: When I got the bill, I said, well, wait, you know, what's this for?
• 16:17
  Shannon Jean: And I called and just like, well, yeah, well, we talked for, you know, 40 minutes.
• 16:23
  Shannon Jean: And I was like, oh, I thought you were just like being friendly.
• 16:25
  Shannon Jean: Like, no, no, we bill in six-minute increments. That's right.
• 16:28
  Shannon Jean: And I'm being as friendly as you want, but we bill in six-minute increments.
• 16:33
  Dave Hamilton: I was also being friendly while I was on the clock. That's right. Yeah.
• 16:37
  Shannon Jean: Always on the clock.
• 16:39
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah. Always on the clock, yeah.
• 16:41
  Shannon Jean: Yeah.
• 16:42
  Dave Hamilton: And I could see somebody, you know, in a – and I've been in emotionally charged
• 16:47
  Dave Hamilton: lawsuits, thankfully never a divorce, thank goodness. But, you know,
• 16:51
  Dave Hamilton: business divorces, yes.
• 16:53
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah. You know, those kinds of things. Partnerships. Partnerships, yep. all that stuff
• 16:56
  Dave Hamilton: and it's just way too easy to just
• 16:59
  Dave Hamilton: vent and they will let you and sometimes it's valuable to have your attorney
• 17:03
  Dave Hamilton: yes there for that venting like they can coach you and and it might even change
• 17:08
  Dave Hamilton: their strategy for your case or whatever like it it is good to communicate with
• 17:14
  Dave Hamilton: your attorney and share with them but be efficient about it is my yeah they
• 17:18
  Shannon Jean: Have to understand the context of what's really going on and you have to be
• 17:25
  Shannon Jean: like I made a mistake you know with,
• 17:28
  Shannon Jean: this was lifetimes ago, not being fully forthcoming with an attorney because
• 17:34
  Shannon Jean: I was embarrassed and I had made a mistake.
• 17:37
  Shannon Jean: And I thought, well, I got to save face here. I've got to protect my precious ego. Yeah.
• 17:43
  Dave Hamilton: Your brand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 17:45
  Shannon Jean: Yeah. And when I was, you know, like in my twenties and not admit,
• 17:49
  Shannon Jean: and the first person you should admit if you
• 17:52
  Shannon Jean: made a mistake is your attorney right because they're there
• 17:55
  Shannon Jean: yeah they're there to help you uh maneuver through
• 17:59
  Shannon Jean: these things and they need to know every single
• 18:02
  Shannon Jean: thing about how things happened and why
• 18:05
  Shannon Jean: they happened why you acted a certain way and so um it's really important that's
• 18:10
  Shannon Jean: part of the context of it and i can remember my attorney you know far down the
• 18:15
  Shannon Jean: road like you know i want to wanting to smack me upside the head because he's
• 18:19
  Shannon Jean: like why didn't you tell me that i was like well i was kind of embarrassed.
• 18:22
  Shannon Jean: She's like, you're not embarrassed with me. I'm on your side.
• 18:24
  Dave Hamilton: You already, you paid me to be on your side. Like, yes, that's literally what
• 18:29
  Dave Hamilton: you've done with an attorney.
• 18:31
  Shannon Jean: I'm not going to judge you. I'm going to bill you. That's right.
• 18:34
  Shannon Jean: And so you're okay. I'm paying for this and here I made a mistake.
• 18:38
  Shannon Jean: Now help extract myself and my business from this mistake I made.
• 18:44
  Shannon Jean: So the context of how you go in, it's not, Hey, I'm a good guy.
• 18:50
  Shannon Jean: And someone's doing this and suing me or whatever, don't do that.
• 18:54
  Shannon Jean: Go in and say, oh, let me show you how we got here today, everything I did, right or wrong.
• 18:59
  Shannon Jean: Here's every email I ever wrote, good or bad.
• 19:02
  Shannon Jean: They need to know it. They need to know the context.
• 19:05
  Dave Hamilton: Yep. If you are hesitant to share something with them, that's the information they need.
• 19:11
  Shannon Jean: Yeah, absolutely.
• 19:12
  Dave Hamilton: Yep.
• 19:14
  Shannon Jean: It's important because you'll spend more money. Yes. You'll spend a lot more money.
• 19:18
  Dave Hamilton: Getting to the end. Yeah.
• 19:19
  Shannon Jean: Yeah, they may go down a certain road. That's wrong.
• 19:22
  Shannon Jean: If they knew more information about, well, I got, you know, whatever.
• 19:28
  Shannon Jean: I got in an argument with this person and I said these things.
• 19:31
  Shannon Jean: You have to tell them that because then they go, oh, well, that changes everything.
• 19:35
  Shannon Jean: And, you know, this is an example.
• 19:37
  Dave Hamilton: No.
• 19:37
  Shannon Jean: Just make it up.
• 19:38
  Dave Hamilton: It's true.
• 19:39
  Shannon Jean: You know, let's get out of this quicker by settling on this thing instead of
• 19:44
  Shannon Jean: fighting for the next two years that you're going to cost you $200,000 in legal fees.
• 19:50
  Shannon Jean: So every – they need to know all the nuance, and they need to get inside your
• 19:56
  Shannon Jean: head. You have to share it with them.
• 19:57
  Dave Hamilton: You have to, yeah. But be efficient about sharing it with them.
• 20:00
  Shannon Jean: Yeah, super smart.
• 20:01
  Dave Hamilton: Sure. You know, and, and in today's world, what I would do in a scenario like
• 20:06
  Dave Hamilton: that is I would feed as much as I had to AI.
• 20:11
  Shannon Jean: And it's funny you said that I was thinking the same thing.
• 20:13
  Dave Hamilton: And have it tell me, okay, here's the important things. Now it might get it wrong.
• 20:18
  Dave Hamilton: Like that's an important part to this, but it will surface at least some of
• 20:22
  Dave Hamilton: the things that it's like, okay, don't forget to tell your attorney these four
• 20:27
  Dave Hamilton: things, you know, tell them everything else you want to, but tell them the,
• 20:31
  Dave Hamilton: at least the, these four things yeah
• 20:33
  Shannon Jean: Yeah and you could often like you you have a bunch of context it could at least
• 20:37
  Shannon Jean: narrow things you know uh you know create a outline of the most important steps
• 20:43
  Shannon Jean: or whatever happened and you know give them it could save you save you some time for sure.
• 20:47
  Dave Hamilton: Some time yeah yeah
• 20:50
  Dave Hamilton: That's great. I agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.
• 20:53
  Dave Hamilton: Well, if you've got things that are on your mind, we're here to be your business
• 20:59
  Dave Hamilton: therapist, and we cost nothing.
• 21:02
  Dave Hamilton: Feedback at businessbrain.show is where you can find us, folks.
• 21:05
  Dave Hamilton: We would love to hear from you.
• 21:07
  Dave Hamilton: And while you're at it, make sure to go leave us a review at businessbrain.show slash review.
• 21:13
  Dave Hamilton: It makes a big difference.
• 21:16
  Dave Hamilton: Thanks very much. Keep living that. Thanks, folks.
• 21:19
  Shannon Jean: See you Friday. Come back for Friday Eye.