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#134 Jason Flom with Damon Thibodeaux · Wrongful Conviction

0:00
Speaker 1: This interview was recorded pre COVID nineteen at a fundraiser
0:02
Speaker 1: for the Innocence Project in front of a live studio audience.
0:07
Speaker 2: It was July nineteen ninety six. While on leave from
0:11
Speaker 2: his job as a river barge deckhand, twenty two year
0:13
Speaker 2: old Damon Thibodeau visited his relatives, the Champagnes. Around noon
0:18
Speaker 2: on July nineteenth. Their fourteen year old daughter, Damon's step cousin, Crystal,
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Speaker 2: walked to a nearby grocery store and never came back.
0:27
Speaker 2: Damon joined what eventually became the entire neighborhood on a
0:30
Speaker 2: frenzied search for Crystal that lasted through the night and
0:33
Speaker 2: into the next day. When he returned home for some
0:36
Speaker 2: much needed sleep, the sheriff came knocking at the door. Inexplicably,
0:41
Speaker 2: Damon had become a suspect in what would turn into
0:44
Speaker 2: a rape and homicide investigation when they found Crystal's partially
0:48
Speaker 2: nude body strangled to death with a red extension cord.
0:52
Speaker 2: Damon maintained his innocence, agreeing to a polygraph, which interrogators
0:56
Speaker 2: would tell him he had failed. Now, if you've listened
0:59
Speaker 2: to our series about false confessions with Laura and I
1:01
Speaker 2: writer and Steve Drissen. A lot of the elements of
1:04
Speaker 2: Damon's story will sound familiar. The polygraph ploy, the false
1:08
Speaker 2: fed facts followed by a false confession, in this case,
1:12
Speaker 2: to the rape and murder of an underage family member,
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Speaker 2: even with no physical evidence connecting him to the crime,
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Speaker 2: the wild disparity between his confession to her rape and
1:23
Speaker 2: the fact that she hadn't been raped at all, among
1:25
Speaker 2: a host of other inconsistencies, Damon Thibodeau was nevertheless convicted
1:31
Speaker 2: and sentenced to death. With the help of the Innisis Project,
1:34
Speaker 2: DNA testing, and a surprisingly cooperative district attorney, Damon was
1:38
Speaker 2: exonerated on September twenty eighth, twenty twelve. This is Wrongful
1:44
Speaker 2: Conviction with Jason Flamm Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's
1:58
Speaker 2: episode is an very interesting when we're recording in front
2:01
Speaker 2: of a live audience. But today's particularly special because I
2:05
Speaker 2: have Vanessa Popkin, who was the first staff attorney at
2:09
Speaker 2: the Endst's Project and is a senior staff attorney now
2:12
Speaker 2: and has been on the show before.
2:14
Speaker 3: So Vanessa, welcome back.
2:15
Speaker 1: It's great to be back.
2:17
Speaker 2: And with Vanessa is Damon Thibodeaux, who was sentenced to
2:20
Speaker 2: death for a brutal crime that we now know he
2:24
Speaker 2: didn't commit. So damon, as I always say, I'm glad
2:27
Speaker 2: you're here, but i'm.
2:27
Speaker 3: Sorry you're here.
2:28
Speaker 4: Thanks for inviting me, Jason.
2:30
Speaker 2: Let's go back to the time that all this stuff happened.
2:36
Speaker 2: You were twenty two years old, and what was your
2:39
Speaker 2: life like?
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Speaker 4: You were from Louisiana, right, I'm from Louisiana, spent most
2:43
Speaker 4: of my time in Texas. I'd moved back to Louisiana
2:46
Speaker 4: and I'd got a job as a deckhand working off shore.
2:49
Speaker 4: Just got my job, you know. It was three weeks
2:52
Speaker 4: into the job, took some short leave to pay some bills, things.
2:54
Speaker 2: Like that, and your stepcousin disappeared.
2:58
Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 4: Yes, I was sitting at the dining room table. Her
3:03
Speaker 4: father was sitting across from me. He left to go
3:06
Speaker 4: do something. I was working on his watch. He couldn't
3:09
Speaker 4: put the band on, so I said, I'll put it
3:11
Speaker 4: on for you, and she asked me to take her
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Speaker 4: to the store. I told her I couldn't do it
3:17
Speaker 4: without your parents' permission, and she said, no, I need
3:21
Speaker 4: you to take me now, and I said no, I
3:23
Speaker 4: can't do it, and she left and that was the
3:26
Speaker 4: last time I saw her.
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Speaker 3: Wow, what time was that more or less.
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Speaker 4: Just afternoon I believe and she.
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Speaker 2: Was fourteen, right, yes, and so that was noon. When
3:37
Speaker 2: did you start to become concerned? And how did the
3:39
Speaker 2: whole thing unfold? And how did you find out that
3:40
Speaker 2: she was missing? And when did the search start? Of me,
3:42
Speaker 2: we want to know everything.
3:43
Speaker 4: Well, her mother was the one who started to panic
3:47
Speaker 4: around what time, maybe to three o'clock. She started making
3:53
Speaker 4: calls to try to find out where she is because
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Speaker 4: she had never done anything like this before. She never
3:57
Speaker 4: disappeared like that, you know. She started calling people to
4:00
Speaker 4: help her look for and offered to help her out,
4:03
Speaker 4: you know, drive them around the neighborhoods and help them
4:06
Speaker 4: look for So.
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Speaker 2: How many people went out, I mean, I'm envisiting like
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Speaker 2: a large group like you see on TV.
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Speaker 4: A whole the whole neighborhood. They had the Coast Guard
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Speaker 4: helicopter there as well by nightfall, flying around the neighborhood
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Speaker 4: with their light trying to help the search teams in
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Speaker 4: the wooded areas. And they had fire trucks out there
4:21
Speaker 4: with all their lights and the police were out there,
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Speaker 4: and there was a wooded area behind the apartment complex
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Speaker 4: where they lived, and everybody in the neighborhood just went
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Speaker 4: walking through it and it was like almost side by side.
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Speaker 4: We had all driven around the neighborhood some of the
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Speaker 4: places that she'd hang out in, some of the friends
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Speaker 4: that she would hang out with, none of them had
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Speaker 4: seen her.
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Speaker 2: After searching all night long and having been up for
4:44
Speaker 2: the previous thirty five hours as well, Damon finally went home,
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Speaker 2: planning to rejoin the search after getting some much needed rest,
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Speaker 2: But just as he was about to lay down, there's
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Speaker 2: a knock at the door.
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Speaker 3: It's the police.
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Speaker 2: Damon wants to help in any way you can, and
5:00
Speaker 2: so he.
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Speaker 3: Agrees to go with them.
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Speaker 2: But while at the police station, everything would change.
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Speaker 4: I was in the interrogation room when they found the.
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Speaker 3: Body, so they had already identified you as a suspect.
5:12
Speaker 4: Yes, why you I still don't know to this day.
5:15
Speaker 3: Do you have any theories on evidence?
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Speaker 1: The state's theory was that his cousin goes missing, she
5:20
Speaker 1: walks out to the store. She's going to the wind Dixie,
5:22
Speaker 1: and when her mother starts to worry about her about
5:25
Speaker 1: an hour later and there's a search party that Damon
5:28
Speaker 1: actually leaves the house and encounters her, and it's at
5:31
Speaker 1: that point that he decides to have sex with her
5:34
Speaker 1: and kill her and then comes back, you know, to
5:36
Speaker 1: be seen and to be part of a search party.
5:39
Speaker 1: So it never really added up, but they did, you know,
5:42
Speaker 1: take him into custody and start interrogating him. And initially
5:47
Speaker 1: they were interrogating him about a missing person, right, and
5:50
Speaker 1: then during that questioning, her body's found, and so it
5:53
Speaker 1: turns into an interrogation about what happened to this girl
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Speaker 1: who's missing too. Now you're a suspect and a homicide.
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Speaker 2: And when she was found, the initial thought was that
6:03
Speaker 2: she had been sexually assaulted.
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Speaker 3: That's correct, because she was.
6:06
Speaker 2: Partially nude and she had been strangled with a chord, right,
6:11
Speaker 2: an electrical chord.
6:12
Speaker 1: Yeah.
6:12
Speaker 2: And so they interrogated you for almost half a day
6:17
Speaker 2: on no sleep. And they can, and they did, play
6:20
Speaker 2: all sorts of dirty tricks in the interrogation room. In America,
6:24
Speaker 2: unlike England and many other countries, they can lie to
6:27
Speaker 2: you in an interrogation room as.
6:28
Speaker 3: Much as they want.
6:29
Speaker 4: They are allowed to lie to you.
6:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they did. They gave you a fake polygraph test,
6:34
Speaker 2: among other things. There's a thing actually was developed in
6:37
Speaker 2: Chicago about fifty years ago, right, the read technique, which
6:40
Speaker 2: is a psychological protocol that's designed to elicit confessions.
6:43
Speaker 3: Be they false or true.
6:45
Speaker 2: So what happened in the interrogation, Panessa, because you've studied
6:48
Speaker 2: this obviously you worked on the case and you got
6:50
Speaker 2: him out. I mean, fifteen years in death row, but
6:52
Speaker 2: he's here, he's not dead, which is great, right.
6:56
Speaker 1: In essence, project worked on the case. You know, it
6:58
Speaker 1: was a huge monumental effort to get to the point
7:01
Speaker 1: where Damon was released. When we looked at the confession evidence.
7:06
Speaker 1: You know, Damon was brought in and he is you know,
7:09
Speaker 1: interrogated under as you pointed out, less than ideal circumstances.
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Speaker 1: You know, the night before she went missing, he had
7:15
Speaker 1: been out hanging out with friends and so he didn't
7:18
Speaker 1: get a lot of sleep. And then of course she
7:20
Speaker 1: goes missing and there's a search party, and so he's
7:22
Speaker 1: not getting sleep that night either, and then the following
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Speaker 1: day he's you know, after about thirty five hours of
7:27
Speaker 1: being up, he's brought in and interrogated, and for the
7:30
Speaker 1: first five hours Damon is adamant about his innocence. Right,
7:35
Speaker 1: you brought up the read technique, and you know, in
7:37
Speaker 1: the US we went from a time where it was
7:40
Speaker 1: permissible to beat confessions out of people, and then we
7:43
Speaker 1: became more enlightened and said, no, you can't physically coerce
7:46
Speaker 1: the confession. But that coercion turned to mental coercion, and
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Speaker 1: so the read technique really is about using different coercive
7:54
Speaker 1: techniques to elicit a confession, and many times it is
7:57
Speaker 1: an accurate confession, and a lot of times it also
8:00
Speaker 1: works so well that it will get people who are
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Speaker 1: completely innocent to confess. So for the first five hours,
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Speaker 1: Damon is saying, I'm innocent, I had nothing to do
8:07
Speaker 1: with this. But part of the red technique is to
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Speaker 1: not accept the denial. So when you know the suspect
8:12
Speaker 1: denies that they were involved, they keep saying, we know
8:15
Speaker 1: you're lying, and they will not accept innocence as an answer.
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Speaker 1: So they did that to Damon and that ultimately they
8:21
Speaker 1: told him the only way you can prove your innocence
8:24
Speaker 1: is for you to take a polygraph. So he agrees, right,
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Speaker 1: But the polygraph, as you pointed out, Jason, was a
8:29
Speaker 1: sham and it was really employed just to advance the interrogation,
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Speaker 1: and so he takes what he believes to be a
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Speaker 1: polygraph and they come back and they say, you failed,
8:40
Speaker 1: and we now know you're lying because you failed. So
8:44
Speaker 1: hearing that you know you failed, and if you have
8:46
Speaker 1: any belief in a polygraph test and you're twenty two,
8:49
Speaker 1: you know, they keep questioning him, how could this happen,
8:52
Speaker 1: and ultimately, you know, get him to say, well, I
8:55
Speaker 1: had a dream and in a dream, you know, I
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Speaker 1: saw my cousin who was killed or girl who was killed.
9:01
Speaker 1: And then ultimately, you know, they keep questioning him. And
9:04
Speaker 1: you know, what we've seen in so many false confession
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Speaker 1: cases is that through questioning, with leading questions, details of
9:11
Speaker 1: the crime are conveyed. That then, under pressure, when you know,
9:15
Speaker 1: somebody like Damon nine ten hours into the interrogation just
9:18
Speaker 1: has had enough and feels their only way out is
9:20
Speaker 1: to give the police what they want, they incorporate those
9:23
Speaker 1: details that now have been you know, either consciously or
9:26
Speaker 1: unconsciously conveyed to them by the detectives who are asking
9:30
Speaker 1: the questions. And so ultimately he gives a statement. But
9:33
Speaker 1: as we you know, would would come to learn looking
9:36
Speaker 1: at the statement. Many of the details that he gave
9:38
Speaker 1: about the crime matched what the police believed to be
9:42
Speaker 1: true at the time they were doing the interrogation, but
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Speaker 1: later turned out to be details that were inconsistent with
9:47
Speaker 1: the known facts of the crime.
9:49
Speaker 2: Right, they're feeding him information, but it's not even the
9:51
Speaker 2: right information. All he's doing is repeating what they're saying
9:53
Speaker 2: to him. And if we know that a false confession
9:56
Speaker 2: is the worst possible thing in the eyes.
10:00
Speaker 3: Of a jury, they don't know it's false obviously.
10:03
Speaker 2: And what I've seen is that false confessions typically happen
10:06
Speaker 2: after long, long interrogations like yours, because someone who's guilty
10:10
Speaker 2: would prefer not to sit in there in that airless
10:13
Speaker 2: room that we've all seen on TV for hours and
10:16
Speaker 2: hours on end, in a very hostile environment with no
10:18
Speaker 2: food and no drink and no nothing, so they might
10:21
Speaker 2: as well just spit it out.
10:22
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just incredible. Innocence is actually a risk
10:26
Speaker 1: factor for making a false confession, because an innocent person
10:29
Speaker 1: under that pressure feels like, let me just give them
10:32
Speaker 1: what they want to hear. And once I get out
10:34
Speaker 1: of here, the system is going to work and it's
10:36
Speaker 1: going to sort itself. Out, and people are going to
10:38
Speaker 1: realize that, you know, as they further investigate, as they
10:41
Speaker 1: do their police work that they should do, they're going
10:43
Speaker 1: to see that they got the wrong person. And here
10:46
Speaker 1: in addition to you know, telling Damon that he failed
10:51
Speaker 1: a polygraph, they also threatened him and said, look, if
10:55
Speaker 1: you don't admit this, you know, there's going to be
10:58
Speaker 1: a media circus and you're going to be granted, you know,
11:01
Speaker 1: a pedophile, and you're going to die by lethal injection.
11:04
Speaker 1: Of course, by confessing, you know, he didn't save himself
11:08
Speaker 1: from the death penalty because that's exactly what he got.
11:10
Speaker 2: And we know also that they interrogated you, Dana for
11:13
Speaker 2: nine hours, but they only recorded fifty four minutes of it, right,
11:15
Speaker 2: so we know how that works too, right, they left
11:18
Speaker 2: all the nefarious stuff out.
11:20
Speaker 4: Well, the polygraph came out missing as well. They can't
11:24
Speaker 4: find it, they don't know where, knows where it's at.
11:25
Speaker 4: But this was the premise for them to keep going
11:27
Speaker 4: with their investigations.
11:31
Speaker 2: The police used the polygraph as a ploy to coerce
11:34
Speaker 2: Damon's false confession to having raped, beaten, and strangled Crystal
11:38
Speaker 2: with a white or gray speaker wire from his car.
11:42
Speaker 3: However, the victim.
11:43
Speaker 2: Was strangled with a red extension cord. He also said
11:46
Speaker 2: that he ejaculated both in and on the victim, but
11:49
Speaker 2: the medical examiner found no semen whatsoever, and that she
11:53
Speaker 2: hadn't even been raped. Given these inconsistencies, prosecutors got very
11:59
Speaker 2: creative to.
12:00
Speaker 3: Salvage their case.
12:03
Speaker 1: So basically in the confession statement, they had Damon saying
12:05
Speaker 1: that he, you know, had sex with the victim and
12:09
Speaker 1: ejaculated on her stomach and inside of her. But as
12:12
Speaker 1: Jason said, there was no seaman evidence recovered. And so,
12:16
Speaker 1: you know, as wrongful convictions go, you know, a detective
12:19
Speaker 1: takes the stand and has asked, how can you explain,
12:22
Speaker 1: how can you account for this? And he says, well,
12:25
Speaker 1: there were maggots on the body, and so the maggots
12:27
Speaker 1: ate the sperm, and the jury bought it.
12:31
Speaker 4: The coroner's report says she hadn't even been raped, right,
12:34
Speaker 4: So it's just how they found her, and they just
12:37
Speaker 4: went off to that conclusion while she was raped, and
12:41
Speaker 4: the case there is no case.
12:44
Speaker 3: I was.
12:44
Speaker 4: I was getting copies of whatever my lawyer at the
12:47
Speaker 4: time was getting from the crime labs. You know, I
12:51
Speaker 4: had copies of the same thing, and I'm like, okay,
12:52
Speaker 4: there's no way they're going to convict me, you know,
12:55
Speaker 4: but it just didn't turn out that way.
12:57
Speaker 3: So you went to trial, and can you explain to
12:59
Speaker 3: us what that was like?
13:01
Speaker 4: I mean, you sit there and you watch as your
13:03
Speaker 4: life falls apart and there's nothing you can do about it.
13:07
Speaker 4: You're a spectator on the sideline. You're now in someone
13:11
Speaker 4: else's life. I mean, whoever did this was supposed to
13:15
Speaker 4: be sitting in that seat, not me. Now I'm sitting
13:19
Speaker 4: in that seat. So now I'm in this individual's life.
13:22
Speaker 4: I have no idea who it is. And it's just
13:28
Speaker 4: you're speechless.
13:29
Speaker 2: And when the jury went out, did you think for
13:32
Speaker 2: a minute that they would convict you.
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Speaker 4: No, I didn't. I'm like, okay, they see the evidence
13:38
Speaker 4: put in front of them, you know, they're going to
13:40
Speaker 4: look at this and say, okay, there's no way he
13:42
Speaker 4: did this. But it's like they didn't even pay attention
13:46
Speaker 4: to what was being presented. And most juries don't. They
13:50
Speaker 4: don't pay attention to the evidence that's in front of them.
13:54
Speaker 4: Like you said, they hear a false confession and they think, oh,
13:57
Speaker 4: that's it. Okay, I'm not going to cont is something
14:00
Speaker 4: I didn't do, so obviously he did it, and that's
14:04
Speaker 4: just not.
14:04
Speaker 3: True, right.
14:06
Speaker 2: I mean, we know that in the first what was
14:08
Speaker 2: the first one hundred and fifty DNA exenerations, almost a
14:11
Speaker 2: quarter of them involve false confessions.
14:13
Speaker 3: Right, that's how common it is, right.
14:14
Speaker 1: And the numbers just growing. So now we have three
14:17
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty five DNA xonerations and we're up to
14:20
Speaker 1: twenty eight percent have involved false confessions. It is one
14:25
Speaker 1: of the leading causes of wrongful convictions. And yet it's
14:30
Speaker 1: very hard for the public and judges and lawyers even
14:33
Speaker 1: to understand how you would confess to a rap or
14:37
Speaker 1: murder that you didn't commit. With a false confession, you're
14:41
Speaker 1: almost certain to be convicted, and more often people than
14:45
Speaker 1: will take a guilty plea because the chance of a
14:49
Speaker 1: conviction despite innocence is almost certain.
14:52
Speaker 2: So the jury comes back and they declare you guilty
14:55
Speaker 2: on all counts.
14:57
Speaker 3: I mean, I can't imagine.
15:00
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, there's not a whole lot you can do. Now.
15:05
Speaker 4: Your life is not yours anymore. You now belong to
15:08
Speaker 4: the state. You are the property of the state. That's
15:12
Speaker 4: why they give you a number. You know, they took
15:14
Speaker 4: me to Angola, took all of my identification and destroyed
15:19
Speaker 4: it everything, gave me a little prison id with a
15:22
Speaker 4: prison number on it, and that's it. Put me in
15:24
Speaker 4: a cell.
15:25
Speaker 2: And Angola, just to paint a picture, is formerly a
15:28
Speaker 2: slave plantation. The reason it's called Angola is because the
15:30
Speaker 2: slaves were brought over from.
15:31
Speaker 4: Angola and it was once the bloodiest prison in the country.
15:35
Speaker 2: And there you were, Yeah, how did you deal with it?
15:38
Speaker 2: And how did you even find the strength to survive
15:41
Speaker 2: and ultimately reach out and get a hold of the
15:43
Speaker 2: Innocence Project?
15:44
Speaker 3: And you know, how are you even here? It's amazing.
15:48
Speaker 4: Well, for the first three years, I contemplated whether or
15:52
Speaker 4: not I wanted to be part of the monkey show?
15:57
Speaker 3: What's the monkey show?
15:59
Speaker 4: The execute? I actually thought about dropping my appeals and
16:05
Speaker 4: having them carry out the execution and just be done
16:08
Speaker 4: with it. They make a spectacle when they execute someone,
16:12
Speaker 4: as everyone knows. You know, it's all on the media.
16:16
Speaker 4: You know, it's the taking of a life, and they've
16:18
Speaker 4: turned it into some kind of sport. You know, everybody's like, oh,
16:22
Speaker 4: I can't wait to kill this guy. And I did
16:25
Speaker 4: not want to be part of that. Things are a
16:27
Speaker 4: little different now because now they're looking at things, well,
16:30
Speaker 4: they're trying to look at it more humanly. But it
16:35
Speaker 4: doesn't matter how you kill someone. It's still an inhumane act.
16:39
Speaker 4: And with all the exonerations in the country today, I
16:45
Speaker 4: have to ask the question, how many more is it.
16:47
Speaker 3: Going to take before we abolish it?
16:49
Speaker 4: Before we bolish it? How many more you already know
16:52
Speaker 4: you've killed innocent people? How many more? Twenty three hours
17:05
Speaker 4: a day, no contact with anyone.
17:08
Speaker 2: Twenty three hours a day in the cell, with no
17:10
Speaker 2: human contact, no, how do you deal with it?
17:13
Speaker 3: How did you deal with it? Like? How did you
17:14
Speaker 3: not lose your mind?
17:15
Speaker 4: You find things to do, like what whatever? You can
17:20
Speaker 4: play cards, exercise, clean the cell. I actually scrubbed myself
17:24
Speaker 4: with a toothbrush.
17:25
Speaker 3: Just to stay busy, just to stay busy.
17:27
Speaker 2: So ultimately you ended up somehow or other finding out
17:31
Speaker 2: about the Ennos's project and reaching out.
17:33
Speaker 4: Well, Denise lebuff had come to see me one day.
17:38
Speaker 4: This was, you know, long before I had written the
17:40
Speaker 4: Nnocence Project. We'll get to that in a minute. And
17:43
Speaker 4: this is the first time I had met Denise. Everyone
17:47
Speaker 4: calls her Denny. I call her Denise it's a respect thing.
17:49
Speaker 4: I don't know, but she's sitting down in front of
17:52
Speaker 4: me and she's like, Okay, look, you didn't do this.
17:55
Speaker 4: I know your first lawyer wasn't all that good, but
17:57
Speaker 4: give me a chance. And from that point on, I
18:00
Speaker 4: made it a point to at least attempt in existence,
18:04
Speaker 4: I suppose, instead of just giving up on it. And
18:08
Speaker 4: you know, I had heard about the Innocence Project and
18:10
Speaker 4: I actually wrote them a letter. I gave them my
18:13
Speaker 4: lawyer's information, my information and the case number, and I
18:18
Speaker 4: sent it to him and I got a response back saying, Okay,
18:21
Speaker 4: this is the only correspondence we're going to have because
18:24
Speaker 4: until they actually pick up a case. That's how it works,
18:27
Speaker 4: because you know, obviously there are guilty guys out there
18:30
Speaker 4: who are writing the Innocence Project trying to find a loophole.
18:35
Speaker 4: And that's the type of letter that I got. Next thing,
18:39
Speaker 4: I know, you know, there's this law firm in Minnesota
18:41
Speaker 4: who's down there taking my case. There's the Innocence Project.
18:44
Speaker 4: Barry and Vanessa show up one day and I'm like, okay.
18:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, what is that? Like It's like the Avengers ride
18:49
Speaker 3: again or something.
18:50
Speaker 4: Right now, you look at it. Yeah, it comes through
18:53
Speaker 4: with the hammer, you know. But still here I am,
18:57
Speaker 4: what six seven years into this death sentence, and it
19:01
Speaker 4: takes another three or four years before they're ready to
19:05
Speaker 4: go talk to the district attorney. You know. Steve calls
19:09
Speaker 4: me Steve Kaplan, he's one of the lawyers from Frederickson
19:12
Speaker 4: and Byron who handled my case, and he's like, Okay,
19:17
Speaker 4: how do you want to do this? You want to
19:18
Speaker 4: just go to courtA, you want to talk to the
19:20
Speaker 4: district attorney. I said, talk to the district attorney first,
19:23
Speaker 4: and everyone was against the idea. It's not going to work.
19:27
Speaker 4: You know who he is. He's a product of Paul
19:30
Speaker 4: Connick and they just want to kill people. And I said, well,
19:36
Speaker 4: what do I have to lose? You know, it's either
19:39
Speaker 4: another ten twenty year fight or maybe just by luck,
19:44
Speaker 4: he'll talk to you. So they set up a meeting
19:47
Speaker 4: and he agreed to reinvestigate my case.
19:50
Speaker 3: And are you in that meeting? Yeah?
19:52
Speaker 1: So this was you know, now there's a lot of
19:54
Speaker 1: talk about conviction review units, you know, being established throughout
19:58
Speaker 1: the country, but this was several years ag go. And
20:00
Speaker 1: so you know, we arranged a meeting to go talk
20:02
Speaker 1: to the DA Paul Konnick and who's the cousin of
20:06
Speaker 1: Harry Connick. So he's the good cousin and he is
20:10
Speaker 1: the DA in Jefferson Parish, and you know, big team there.
20:14
Speaker 1: They had an investigator, Vince Lamia in the room and
20:17
Speaker 1: Steve Wimberley the first assistant. So they assembled the big
20:20
Speaker 1: team and we basically went through a presentation of the
20:23
Speaker 1: confession of the timeline which just virtually made it impossible
20:27
Speaker 1: for Damon to have been involved. So when we walked
20:30
Speaker 1: through and we did a presentation, they did acknowledge that
20:33
Speaker 1: there were enough problems in the case that they should
20:35
Speaker 1: undertake an investigation. And it was quite a massive undertaking.
20:41
Speaker 1: Every piece of evidence that existed was sent out for
20:45
Speaker 1: DNA testing, and because he had been arrested that night,
20:48
Speaker 1: they had taken a male rape kit from him. I mean,
20:51
Speaker 1: there was not one piece of physical evidence to suggest
20:54
Speaker 1: that he had anything to do with the crime. And
20:57
Speaker 1: in fact, the victim had been strangled with a piece
20:59
Speaker 1: of wire and it had been burned off of a
21:03
Speaker 1: wire that was hanging in a tree. So the perpetrator
21:05
Speaker 1: burned it off and then took it to strangle the victim.
21:08
Speaker 1: And we were able to get some bloods and DNA
21:11
Speaker 1: on that wire at the scene that excluded Damon. So
21:14
Speaker 1: you know, there was years of a joint reinvestigation with
21:18
Speaker 1: the district attorney's office to get to the point where
21:20
Speaker 1: they acknowledged that Damon was innocent and they had convicted
21:24
Speaker 1: and sent an innocent man to death row.
21:27
Speaker 4: How often is it that a district attorney that's prosecuted
21:31
Speaker 4: a case is the same district attorney that comes back
21:33
Speaker 4: and releases that individual.
21:37
Speaker 3: Rare?
21:37
Speaker 4: It's rare. So Connick did something in Louisiana that was
21:42
Speaker 4: pretty much unheard of and it could have hurt him.
21:46
Speaker 4: You know, he took that chance to step out there
21:48
Speaker 4: and say, okay, wait, we got a problem. I'm I'm
21:51
Speaker 4: glad he got out of his comfort zone and decided
21:54
Speaker 4: to take a step in a new direction.
22:04
Speaker 2: So now it comes to the good part of the story, right,
22:07
Speaker 2: the moment right when you found out that you were
22:10
Speaker 2: actually going to go home?
22:11
Speaker 3: How did you find out? What was it like?
22:14
Speaker 4: It was a phone call on a Wednesday, I think
22:17
Speaker 4: it was. Everything was agreed to. They had set something
22:20
Speaker 4: up to have the judge and the district attorney sign everything,
22:24
Speaker 4: but the thing. They were trying to get everything done
22:27
Speaker 4: before Friday because that's when the prison office is closed.
22:31
Speaker 4: So this was all done on a Friday, and they
22:35
Speaker 4: had everything faxed over to the prison and the sergeant
22:38
Speaker 4: comes down to the cell. He says, pack your stuff.
22:41
Speaker 4: You're going home, but first we have to take you
22:44
Speaker 4: over to the hospital to have you checked out. So
22:46
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm in a full jumpsuit and chains, and
22:48
Speaker 4: I go to the hospital and the ranking officers there
22:51
Speaker 4: is like, buyse in a jumpsuit and chains, where's his property? Well,
22:56
Speaker 4: it's everything's back to the cell where he's going home.
22:58
Speaker 4: He's not supposed to be going back, so they have
23:01
Speaker 4: to take me back to death row, take me out
23:03
Speaker 4: of the jumpsuit, and I gotta put my clothes on
23:05
Speaker 4: and grab my stuff. So you know, it's kind of
23:10
Speaker 4: it's not real until you walk out the gate.
23:12
Speaker 2: And after you worked on this case for all those years,
23:15
Speaker 2: what was it like for you?
23:17
Speaker 1: Well, it was amazing. I personally wasn't there because I
23:21
Speaker 1: was basically nine months pregnant and I couldn't get on
23:25
Speaker 1: a plane, so I missed that moment of seeing Damon.
23:29
Speaker 1: But it was you know, Barry Shek was there, Steve
23:33
Speaker 1: Kaplan from the law firm, Denny Lebuffe from the Capitol
23:37
Speaker 1: Resource Center in Louisiana, and it just, you know, I
23:41
Speaker 1: don't even know what the estimate is of Steve's hours.
23:44
Speaker 4: Steve, I mean, he was so instrumental in helping me
23:47
Speaker 4: out while I was there, and post release, he helped
23:51
Speaker 4: me out in ways that you know, you just can't repay.
23:54
Speaker 4: You know, this man, he flew down here and drove
23:58
Speaker 4: me back to Minnesota because I had decided to move
24:01
Speaker 4: to Minnesota after I was released to start things over,
24:06
Speaker 4: and I lived with him until November of that year,
24:10
Speaker 4: got my own place, and he actually the Innocence Project
24:14
Speaker 4: helped me get a car, helped me with my rent,
24:17
Speaker 4: and Steve helped me out with that as well. And
24:20
Speaker 4: you know, I can't repay him for what he's done.
24:22
Speaker 2: So damon, I have to ask you. And it's beautiful
24:24
Speaker 2: to hear you say that. Have you been compensated? No,
24:28
Speaker 2: so you've gotten nothing.
24:29
Speaker 4: I've gotten nothing. There is current litigation, right.
24:33
Speaker 3: But you know you're tiving to make ends to me
24:35
Speaker 3: on your own.
24:35
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, if I don't do nothing, I'm gonna
24:37
Speaker 4: lose my mind. You know, there are things I want
24:39
Speaker 4: to do, places I want to go. You know, I
24:41
Speaker 4: like that juicy steak, you know, but.
24:44
Speaker 3: You gotta pay for it, right, So you're out there.
24:47
Speaker 4: So you know, I'm out there doing my job, and
24:50
Speaker 4: you know, if it comes through, then hey, I'm all
24:53
Speaker 4: for it. But if not, then you know I've got
24:56
Speaker 4: a job to do.
24:57
Speaker 2: So look, I think, Damon, it's a it's a terrible story.
25:01
Speaker 2: It's a remarkable story. You're a remarkable guy. You're out
25:04
Speaker 2: there now driving a truck and living life and seeing
25:07
Speaker 2: the country and experiencing freedom, and that's awesome and we're
25:11
Speaker 2: really proud of you. And now we get to my
25:15
Speaker 2: favorite part of the show, which is that I actually
25:18
Speaker 2: get to stop talking and just listen. And so before
25:21
Speaker 2: I do that, I want to thank you both again
25:25
Speaker 2: for coming and being on the show. Vanessa Popkin, senior
25:30
Speaker 2: staff attorney at The Innocence Project, badass lawyer and human being.
25:35
Speaker 2: And Damon Thibodeau death row xannery and inspirational character. So
25:41
Speaker 2: I think we're gonna save the best for last, and
25:43
Speaker 2: that's you, Damon. So with all due respect that we're
25:46
Speaker 2: going to turn it over to you Vanessa for your
25:48
Speaker 2: closing thoughts.
25:49
Speaker 1: Well, we've talked about, you know, the number of people
25:51
Speaker 1: in prison and the US leading in terms of our
25:54
Speaker 1: prison population, leading the world, and you know, when it
25:58
Speaker 1: comes to and what the error rates are and how
26:01
Speaker 1: many people that means are innocent in prison today, and
26:04
Speaker 1: when you take a look just at death row in itself,
26:06
Speaker 1: we have about twenty seven hundred people on death row.
26:10
Speaker 1: There have been conservative estimates that four four point one
26:14
Speaker 1: percent of people on death row are actually innocent, and
26:17
Speaker 1: so that would mean there are one hundred and nine
26:18
Speaker 1: people incarcerated today on death row facing execution for crimes
26:24
Speaker 1: that they didn't commit.
26:25
Speaker 4: David, Well, you know, being where I am now as
26:31
Speaker 4: opposed to where I was six years ago. You know,
26:35
Speaker 4: a lot of guys in my position they don't have
26:38
Speaker 4: anything when they walk out, and it's sometimes years before
26:41
Speaker 4: they get compensation. I had a lot of help getting
26:44
Speaker 4: where I am. You know, the reason why I'm driving
26:47
Speaker 4: a truck is because I'm at a guy at the
26:50
Speaker 4: Minneapolis Auto Show, a guy named Bill Collins, friends of
26:54
Speaker 4: truck driving school. He was, you know, at the auto show.
26:57
Speaker 4: He drives you know, stock cart as well as a
27:01
Speaker 4: hobby and he asked me one day, he said, what
27:03
Speaker 4: do you think about driving truck? And I said it's okay.
27:06
Speaker 4: He said, well, I want to pay for you to
27:09
Speaker 4: go through my school and get your CDL. I'm sitting
27:13
Speaker 4: here thinking, okay, I have the Innocence Project doing this,
27:15
Speaker 4: I have Steve doing this. Now here's this guy here.
27:17
Speaker 4: He's offering to pay for me to go to schools
27:21
Speaker 4: to get this license. You know, here I am today,
27:24
Speaker 4: I'm pretty much paid to see the country. You know,
27:28
Speaker 4: But it takes a lot to give someone their life back.
27:33
Speaker 4: And I don't mean life as breathing. I mean we
27:37
Speaker 4: walk out. We have no job, we have no social security,
27:39
Speaker 4: we have no retirement, we don't have a license, we
27:43
Speaker 4: don't have an ID. I had to fight to get
27:45
Speaker 4: my birth certificate with my name on it. And if
27:53
Speaker 4: not for the Innocence Project and other lawyers involved, then
27:58
Speaker 4: I don't know where I'd be right now. More programs
28:01
Speaker 4: need to be put in place for exona reeves, because
28:04
Speaker 4: someone who actually gets out on parole has more resources
28:08
Speaker 4: at their disposal than someone like myself. And you know
28:12
Speaker 4: that should not be the case. You know, Being where
28:17
Speaker 4: I am now is it's a blessing you know, and
28:22
Speaker 4: coming from where I've been, will but Reduce said it best.
28:28
Speaker 4: My worst day out here is better than my best
28:30
Speaker 4: day in prison. So I think I thank everybody for
28:35
Speaker 4: helping me out every day. I try every day to
28:40
Speaker 4: do it right, So.
28:52
Speaker 3: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you
28:54
Speaker 3: get your podcasts, it really helps.
28:57
Speaker 2: And I'm a proud donor to the Ennisis Project, and
29:00
Speaker 2: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
29:02
Speaker 2: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
29:06
Speaker 2: to anisonsproject dot org to learn how to donate and
29:09
Speaker 2: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor
29:13
Speaker 2: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is
29:15
Speaker 2: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
29:19
Speaker 3: Be sure to follow us on.
29:20
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29:23
Speaker 3: At Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
29:25
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Vlahm is a production of Lava
29:28
Speaker 2: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one