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Hell and Gone Murder Line: Mina and David Swan [From the Archives] · Hell and Gone: Murder Line

• 0:46
  Speaker 1: School of Humans. Helen Gone Murder Line actively investigates cold
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: case murders in an effort to raise public awareness, invite
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: witnesses to come forward, and present evidence that could potentially
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: be further investigated by law enforcement. While we value insights
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: from family and community members, their statements should not be
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: considered evidence and point to the challenges of verifying facts
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: inherent in cold cases. We remind listeners that everyone is
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: presumed innocent until proven.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Guilty in a court of law.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Nothing in the podcast is intended to state or imply
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: that anyone who has not been convicted of a crime
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: is guilty of any wrongdoing.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: But in this case, the suspicious activity wasn't from anything
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: that was actually going on.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: It was kind of the opposite.
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  Speaker 3: The neighbors were concerned because things were a little bit
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: too quiet. They had their eyes on a little one-story
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: White House at 1033 Flushing Avenue, where 88-year-old David Swan
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: and his wife, 80-year-old Mina Swan, lived. They had lived
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: in that home for the past 20 years. Mina had
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: actually lived there for 40 years. This was a second
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: marriage for both David and Mina. She had lived there
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  Speaker 3: with her first husband until he passed away and then
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  Speaker 3: later made a home there with David, her second husband.
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  Speaker 3: According to friends and family, David and Mina were in
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: a very happy marriage and they had no known enemies.
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: And they had a really regular routine. They always came
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: out to get their newspaper. They had a neighbor across
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  Speaker 3: the street named Joel Locke who lived there with his father,
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: John Locke. Now, Joel told police that he last saw
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: the Swans on Thursday afternoon at around 3 p.m. Then,
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: on Friday, they never walked outside to get the paper. Then,
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: over the weekend, Joel said he noticed that the Swans'
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: lights were on, but again, on Saturday, there was no
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: sign of either David or Amina.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: So by Saturday, he told police he was getting concerned.
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: David and Mina had married later in life, so they
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: never had any children together. But they had seven children
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  Speaker 3: between them. Both of them were involved in each other's
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  Speaker 3: children's lives. The families were close. Finally, on Saturday, a
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: little before 2 p.m., Joel got in touch with Mina's daughter,
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: Noelle Devine. It says in media reports that Noelle had
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: a key to the house. But in the end, she
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: didn't need to use it because Noelle came to the
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: neighborhood she lived nearby... And she and Joel approached David
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: and Mina's house. They went in through the back door
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: and it was unlocked. And what they saw when they
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: walked in that house was horrific. David and Mina were
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: at the kitchen table, slumped over in pools of blood.
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  Speaker 3: Forensic testing revealed they had been dead for at least
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: a day. Joel Locke told WFLA News Channel 8, Noel
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: could not handle it. She ran out the door and
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: I was with her right behind, end quote. David and
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  Speaker 3: Mina were shot execution style. They were sitting at the
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: kitchen table. David had been shot once, Mina multiple times.
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  Speaker 3: There was nothing stolen and no sign of forced entry.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: Of course, there were a lot of media reports after
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: this case because it was shocking, the murder of two
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: elderly people. And what we kept hearing on the news
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  Speaker 3: was that this shocked the town of Clearwater, which is
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: a place probably best known for having a large presence
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: of Scientology church members. A few early commenters on the
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: case kind of wondered if Scientologists could have had something
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: to do with it. But let me just say right
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: off the bat, there is zero indication that Scientology had
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: anything to do with these murders. So before I get
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: a lot of calls, I just want to say that
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: up front. All we heard on the news was that
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: David and Mina were this super happy older couple. And
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: the headline has basically been, who would want to kill
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: this nice elderly couple who had no known enemies? But
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: as Hell and Gone listeners know, I always try to
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: look beyond the headlines. So I've spent a lot of
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: time doing a deep dive into the probate records that
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: followed these deaths. By the way, thank you Pinellas County, Florida,
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: because this county does have a really good open record system. Now,
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  Speaker 3: Joel Locke, the neighbor, gave more details to another news organization.
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  Speaker 3: He said that when he was in that kitchen, he
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: saw signs that food had been prepared. He said, quote, she,
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  Speaker 3: meaning Mina, was face down and he was on his back.
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  Speaker 3: She was on one side of the coffee table. He
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  Speaker 3: was on the other side. So, at least in the beginning,
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  Speaker 3: it seems as though they were just hanging out at
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  Speaker 3: home about to eat dinner when the killer walked in
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  Speaker 3: and shot them.
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  Speaker 2: Their obituaries focused.
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  Speaker 3: On how happy David and Mina Swan were. According to
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  Speaker 3: his obituary, after retirement, David had fulfilled a lifelong dream
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  Speaker 3: of travel. He and Mina loved to have new adventures.
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  Speaker 3: He hiked the Appalachian Trail in 2002, and his trail
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  Speaker 3: name was Twinkle Toes. Mina hiked part of it with him,
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: and her trail name was Artsy because she had been
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: an art teacher. David had a private pilot's license. He
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: and Mina traveled everywhere. They went to Europe, China, Chile, Argentina,
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  Speaker 3: the Panama Canal, Australia, New Zealand, the South Pacific.
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  Speaker 2: This list goes on and on.
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  Speaker 3: But again, even though they appeared to be living this
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: idyllic lifestyle, and apparently David had been this very successful
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: CPA who was retired, I wondered what the real story was.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: because now the police have admitted they're pretty much stumped.
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  Speaker 3: After these murders, they had no time of death and
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: no suspects. And over three years later, this case is
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: still unsolved. So who could have killed David and Minus One?
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  Speaker 3: Could it be someone like a tradesperson? Could it be
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: a serial killer or someone targeting elderly residents? Or could
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: it be one of David's former business associates from Chicago?
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: Or was it someone a lot closer to home? I'm
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: Katherine Townsend. This is Hell and Gone Murder Line. If
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: you have a case you'd like me and my team
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: to look into, you can reach out to us at
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: our Hell and Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: That's 678-744-6145.
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: A week after David and Mina Swan's bodies were found,
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  Speaker 3: Chief Daniel Slaughter of the Clearwater Police Department held a
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  Speaker 3: press conference to talk about the murders.
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  Speaker 2: This is what he said.
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  Speaker 4: What I can share in the investigation is that David
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: and Mina were seen alive on Thursday, September 27th in
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: the early afternoon. From the investigation... We are looking closely
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: at a 24-hour window from Thursday, September 27th, around 3 p.m.
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  Speaker 4: to Friday, September 28th, about the same time, 3 p.m.
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  Speaker 4: Although our investigation is looking closely at that window as
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: a suspected period of time when these two murders occurred,
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: the investigators are also looking at leads outside of that window.
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  Speaker 4: I can share that David and Mina were both shot
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: and killed, and as previously reported, are homicide victims. The
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: evidence does not indicate that the offender committed I'm sorry,
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: the evidence does indicate that the offender came with the
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: intent to kill David and Mina. This does not appear
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: to be a random event. Being vigilant and following simple
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: common crime prevention techniques like locking your doors, your car doors,
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: your home doors, your garage doors is always a very
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: prudent thing to do for safety. But we do not
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  Speaker 4: believe there is any reason for the rest of the
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  Speaker 4: community to be concerned. Clearwater detectives and Pinellas County Sheriff's
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  Speaker 4: Office forensic specialists spent over 40 hours working in the
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  Speaker 4: crime scene, documenting the crime scene, processing the crime scene,
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  Speaker 4: and collecting trace evidence. The collection of trace evidence is
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: very time-consuming. Any person that entered the Swan home would
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: leave trace evidence behind, and that would be in the
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: form of hair, fibers, skin cells, touch DNA, a variety
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: of different things. Those traceable substances would be very vitally
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: important for our investigation, and so it's very important that
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: we collect them in a very methodical manner and in
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: a very appropriate manner. We know that in murder cases,
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: there's usually some form of a victim-offender relationship. Investigators will
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: therefore speak to anyone that had a relationship with the Swans,
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: whether it's family, friends, or business dealings. We're going to
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  Speaker 4: talk to everyone and anyone involved or connected to the
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: family until we get.
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  Speaker 5: To the bottom of it.
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  Speaker 3: So let's break down those statements. First, Chief Slaughter kind
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  Speaker 3: of clarified the window of time when David and Mina
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  Speaker 3: were killed. The last time the Swans were seen alive
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  Speaker 3: that was verifiable was Thursday, September 27th at around 3 p.m. Remember,
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  Speaker 3: that's when the neighbors saw them come outside and pick
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: up those newspapers. They didn't come out of their house
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: on Friday or Saturday when Noel and Joel went into
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: the house. So this is why investigators were concentrating on
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  Speaker 3: the 24-hour window between Thursday at 3 p.m.
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  Speaker 2: And Friday at 3 p.m.
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  Speaker 3: If the neighbor's reports are true, if the lights were
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: left on all night on Thursday night, Thursday night, in
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  Speaker 3: my opinion, becomes the most likely time when they could
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  Speaker 3: have been murdered, especially if we believe Joel, if there
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  Speaker 3: was food on the counter that looked like they were
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  Speaker 3: about to eat dinner. The lights were on and the
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  Speaker 3: door was unlocked. Also, the Tampa Bay Times talked to
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: a neighbor named Bob Anderson. Bob said his wife had
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  Speaker 3: gone by the Swan House on Friday to drop off
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  Speaker 3: some pamphlets.
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  Speaker 2: And that nobody answered the door.
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  Speaker 3: Noelle talked to reporters about her experience going into the house.
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  Speaker 3: She said, quote, when I heard the papers were building up,
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  Speaker 3: I just panicked, end quote. As she drove to her
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: mother's house, she said that she was trying to tell
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  Speaker 3: herself there could be a rational explanation. Maybe her mom
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  Speaker 3: and stepdad went off on a last minute trip. Then
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: once she went into that house and saw those bodies,
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  Speaker 3: her world fell apart. She said, quote, At the press
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  Speaker 3: conference and also later.
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  Speaker 3: Law enforcement's made a point to say this was likely
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: an isolated attack. And they said the community did not
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: need to be worried, which I always think is a
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: little bit misleading because what they mean is that this
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: is a person who is targeting this one specifically. It's
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: not some random person out there. But in my opinion,
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: if someone killed a person, whatever their motivation was, and
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: they're still out there, someone could find out about those killings,
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  Speaker 3: confront that person, and.
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  Speaker 2: They could be in danger.
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  Speaker 3: So I get what the police are trying to do here.
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  Speaker 3: They don't want the community to panic. But I do
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  Speaker 3: feel like, and I hear this statement often about the
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: public not needing to be concerned. I don't think it's
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: always that valid. So let's take a closer look at
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  Speaker 3: this couple. We're going to see very soon that there
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: are two different versions of their life story that start
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: to emerge. The official version and what I call kind
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: of the unofficial version. This isn't meant with any kind
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: of disrespect at all, by the way. Everyone has secrets.
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  Speaker 3: But sometimes if you want to find out who killed someone,
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: who wanted them dead, you have to look behind some
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: of these headlines that are just superficial. You have to
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  Speaker 3: try and discover some of their secrets. So we know
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  Speaker 3: the killing was very personal and that the Swans were targeted.
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  Speaker 3: So the question is, who could have wanted to kill
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  Speaker 3: them and why? David Sidney Swan Jr., and this is
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  Speaker 3: from his obituary, was born on April 15, 1930.
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  Speaker 2: He was raised in Shreveport, Louisiana.
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  Speaker 3: He enlisted in the Navy, and after his naval service,
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  Speaker 3: he went to work for an accounting firm called Swifton
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  Speaker 3: Company in Chicago. He met his first wife, whose name
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: was Eva Sorenson, in Chicago. He graduated from Northwestern University
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: and became a CPA. He later worked at another firm,
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  Speaker 3: and he and his wife had four kids, Julia, Janet, Stephen,
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  Speaker 3: and a son named David. So David and his first
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: wife raised their family. Then in the early 1980s, they
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  Speaker 3: moved to Clearwater, Florida. David set up his own practice
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: doing taxes, and eventually David and.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: His first wife retired there. That's what I saw in
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: the obituary.
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  Speaker 3: But there's something in that part of my brain that
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: gets activated when I have insomnia, which is often. So
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: one night I woke up and started looking through court records.
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: It was like 2 a.m. that night, and I found
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: some court documents that mentioned a woman connected to David
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: Swan named Mae Swan. These court documents said that David
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: was divorced from this woman. But I noticed that this
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: alleged second wife was apparently never mentioned in his obituary.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: So that just got me wondering, why not? Why would
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: that not be mentioned? Again, not trying to air any
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: dirty laundry, but in a case where money could be involved,
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: someone clearly had a grudge against this couple. So we
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: need to try to cover all the facts. And these
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: facts are, by the way, in public records, if you
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: look deep enough. And also, I feel like with a
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: lot of these media reports, there's this kind of flippant
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: idea that just because these people are elderly, that they're
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: just this sweet little old couple. I don't know, maybe
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: it's because I watch the Golden Girls a lot or
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: because I have some very active, older, southern women in
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: my family. But I reject the notion that just because
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: someone is older means they don't have drama or conflict
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: or any kind of an inner life. Or, for that matter,
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: that they're not capable of being criminals. Life is complicated
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: no matter what age you are. So I need to
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: find out more about this woman, Mae. and try and
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: figure out what happened between her and David and where
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: she is now. Mina was an art teacher. She taught
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: at a local high school. She was married to her
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: first husband, Harold, for many years. According to Mina's children,
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: Mina and Harold were very happy together. They had three kids, Noel, John,
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: and William, and they were living in that home in
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: Clearwater until he passed.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Away in the late 90s.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: David and Mina met in Clearwater. They started dating and
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: married in 1999. Now, according to Noel in the deposition,
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: David was actually her parents' accountant. He did some accounting
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: work for Mina and her late husband, which, as we
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: will see in a minute, Noel appears to have a
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: big problem with. But let's go back to the murders.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: Months go by and then over a year. The police
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: have no suspects. But then there's an item in a
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: news report about a lawsuit. By the way, David's son, Stephen,
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: is the personal representative of David's estate. And Mina's daughter, Noelle,
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: is the representative of her mother's estate. It turns out
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: that Noelle is suing Stephen and that the lawsuit is
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: all about the estate and money.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: So we're going to try to follow that money. We
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: need to answer the.
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: Question of what exactly was going on with David and
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: Mina Swan's financial situation. We know that Mina owned her
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: home and that David had been.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: A successful CPA.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: The police said that they were living in a nice
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: neighborhood and they had some investments, but these were not
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: super wealthy people. But the probate records give us a
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: lot more detail about what was going on behind the
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: scenes with their finances. According to court documents, Mina and
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: David Swan did have a prenup when they got married.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: And that prenup basically said that they would keep their
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: finances separate. Each one would provide for their own biological children.
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: Mina's will also discussed her property, her house. And the
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: will said if she and David stayed married and she
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: died before him, he would have the right to live
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: there for another six months. But basically, he would not
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: inherit it. Everything went to her children. But according to Noelle,
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: it wasn't that simple. Now, here's where it gets a
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: little bit bizarre, because Noelle is kind of the main
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: spokesperson for her mom. And the family talked a lot
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: with police. They participated in press conferences. And in the
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: early press conferences, Noelle would talk about her mom and
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: David and how they were soulmates. She talked about him
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: in a very endearing way. She said that they love
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: to garden. She talked about how they would have wine
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: and cheese in the afternoons and they would walk their dog,
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: whose name was Benji, around town. And she said something
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: I remember well. She said they would end up giving
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: their dog a little slice of the cheese, which I
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: completely relate to. So it seemed like she believed they
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: were this great match. But behind the scenes... In 2019,
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: it became clear that Noelle was developing a different view
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: of her mom and David's relationship. Now, remember, in the
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: press conference, Chief Slaughter talked about all the evidence that
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: police took from the scene. They talked about DNA testing.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: But some of the things that law enforcement have said
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: since then have continued to lead me to believe that
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: DNA probably won't be the key to this case. Now,
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: this could be for a couple of reasons. It could
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: be because whoever killed the Swans wore gloves and was
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: super careful. That's a possibility. But it's also possible that
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: whoever killed the Swans was someone who had been inside
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: the home before, maybe a family member or a friend,
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: someone who would have had a reason for their DNA
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: to be present in there. That's also a possibility I've considered.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: In a later press conference, Detective Kinnicky, who became the
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: lead investigator on the case, seemed to allude to this.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: He said, quote, some cases are made on DNA or
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: fingerprints or ballistics. I think this is going to come
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: back to good old-fashioned police work, end quote. Police say
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: several times this was not a random home invasion. And
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: Chief Slaughter also said something that alluded to money being involved.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: He said, quote, while they didn't live a lavish lifestyle,
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: both of them had investments, end quote. So again, what
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: was their net worth? Were they an elderly couple who
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: lived simply? Was there a ton of money being hidden somewhere?
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: What was going on?
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: There are at least two versions of the story. David
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: Swan's daughter, Julie Swan, publicly spoke out. She said that
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: her dad was, quote, the type of person who was
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: true to his word, end quote. She said he was
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: a successful accountant and he was generous with money. But
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: Mina's daughter, Noelle, in her lawsuit, alleged something very different.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: She seemed to say in her lawsuit that David withheld money,
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: that he was kind of cheap, and that he had
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: done some business deals that had been, in her opinion,
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: a little bit shady. She alleged that he had been
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: controlling her mother's finances. And she said that she had
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: discovered a lot of things in David's background that she
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: was not aware of. So let's take a deeper look
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: at some of these allegations. On June 24, 2019, Noelle
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: filed her lawsuit she asked for compensation from David's estate
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: for 14 different items she listed there, around half a
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: million dollars in total.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Stephen Swan said from.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: The beginning that these allegations were ridiculous, that the estate
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: did not owe that money, that his father and Mina
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: had kept their finances separate.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: One of the items.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: Noelle said she had an issue with was a promissory note.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: It was signed in 2006 by David. Apparently, Minus One
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: had homeowner's insurance on her home. And David wanted her
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: to drop the homeowner's insurance policy.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: He thought it was too expensive.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: So what happened was he signed this promissory note in
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: 2006 saying he promised to pay $ 2, 500 to Mina every
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: year and to put that money in an account so
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: that if anything ever did happen, they would have money
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: to do the home repairs. She agreed to this, and
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: they signed an agreement. He said he would deposit money
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: every year that would equal what the premium would have been.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: If they ever needed that money, they would take it
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: out of that fund, and David agreed to cover any
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: amount that was in excess of that. Now, there's nothing
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: necessarily alarming about that at all. David may have been
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: totally right. It may not have been worth the money
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: to have that insurance policy. But it's obvious from what
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: Noelle said in her lawsuit that she believed this was
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: about more than that. She obviously had issues with David
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: controlling her mother. So at first, those payments were put
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: into an account. Noelle said her mom had access to it.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: Then in June of 2018, the balance was transferred into
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: a new Charles Schwab account. Mina was the joint owner
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: of that account. But later, Noelle claimed the money was
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: moved into another account, an account that only David had
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: access to. And that wasn't Noelle's only complaint. Noelle also
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: alleged that David failed to make payments that he agreed
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: to make to her mother. Basically, she claimed David had
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: been trying to hide money from her mother.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Again, Stephen Swan said this entire lawsuit was bogus.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: And in the end, the court appeared to side with
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: him because Noelle's lawsuit was dismissed, but denied. I want
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: to dive into this a little bit because through Noel
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: and Stephen's depositions, we get two drastically different versions of
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: this marriage that had seemed so perfect to the outside world.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: It's one of the only ways I can think of,
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: of really getting behind closed doors and finding out what's
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: going on.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Noel and her sister were both deposed.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: And they said David made their mother feel unsafe and
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: they painted a completely different picture of the relationship between
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: David and minus one. And again, I have no idea
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: if any of this is true. They could be completely wrong.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: We just don't know. All I'm saying is that when
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: we're trying to figure out victimology, it is crucial to
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: understand how family members and friends view this relationship between
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: David and Mina. Remember what I said about David's obituary
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: and there being another woman who showed up in court records,
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: but he was not mentioned in the obituary. Well, the
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: deposition seemed to confirm that. According to Noel's deposition, David
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: was actually married to someone else when he got together
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: with Mina. Noel alleged that David had moved in on
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: their mom very quickly after their father's death. So it's
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: interesting because the initial financial dispute that Noel had seemed
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: to be solved pretty quickly. According to the information that
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: Stephen Swan provided the court, Noelle had made a mistake.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: She had been double counting on certain accounts. She thought
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: there was money there that didn't exist. He also said
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: that even if there was money in a homeowner's insurance
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: account that belonged to Mina Swan, after David and Mina's death,
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: he said Noelle would have had no right to that money.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: The money was for homeowner's insurance. And in the end,
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: they didn't need to use it for that reason. And again,
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: the fact that there was fighting over potential inheritance money
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: is not uncommon, unfortunately. So in the end, David Swan's
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: estate was settled, but the court cases involving Mina's estate
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: are still ongoing. I found something else interesting in this lawsuit.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: I found out Mina Swan's estate was frozen by police. Now,
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: apparently this has something to do with Florida's Slayer statute,
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: and that's a law that's on the books. That basically
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: prevents anyone who is related to the deceased from profiting
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: off of the death if they are believed to have
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: had anything to do with it. I don't know all
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: the legalities of that law, but it is mentioned in
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: the deposition, and that is the reason why the estate
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: was frozen. So meanwhile, while all this stuff is going
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: on in the background, the family.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: Has publicly appealed for help.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: Stephen has told reporters that he does believe that these
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: murders were about money. He said, quote, I already have
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: six theories of the case. Don't know if any of
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: them are correct, but what do you always hear? Follow
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: the money, end quote. Seven months after the murders.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: Police reached out again.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: Again, the detective in charge of the investigation, Brian Kanicki,
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: told the Tampa Bay Times that they had multiple detectives
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: looking at the case. They looked at hundreds of pieces
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: of evidence, and he said, quote, This is interesting to
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: me for a couple of reasons. First of all, I
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: just want to say I think it's great that the
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: police department continues to provide updates. Even if they don't
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: have that much information, just keeping it in the public eye,
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: allowing the families of boys, I think it's a great
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: thing because a lot of police departments don't do that. Secondly, though,
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: I think it's very telling. Police are admitting they're basically
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: at a dead end. They're saying they need help. I
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: wonder how many of their detectives have experience with what
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: I call fraud detection homicides. I've talked a lot on
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: my other podcast about red collar cases. And one of
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: the most important things in a potential fraud detection homicide
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: is finding out everything that you can about the finances
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: of the deceased and finding people who are close to them,
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: who they have financial relationships with. And the question to
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: ask is not necessarily always what would a potential killer
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: gain from someone's death, but At the time of death,
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: did they have a desperate financial situation? What did they
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: believe that they were about to lose? So that's what
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: I've been trying to figure out. So let's take a
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: closer look at some of David and Mauna's other family relationships.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: Noelle has been deposed multiple times for the litigation, and
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: she's actually shed a lot of light on the relationship
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: between David, her mother, and her siblings. Noelle said both
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: she and her husband worked in the banking industry. Several
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: years before the killing, she moved back to an area
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: of Florida near her mom. So she saw Mina a lot.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: She got to spend a lot of time with her.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: David's children lived in Chicago and Oregon, so farther away.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: But both of Mina's other sons, William and John, also
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: lived in Florida. In her deposition, Noelle said she had
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: learned that David Swan was not, according to her, everything
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: he appeared to be. Even with really simple things. For example...
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: David was a serious bridge player. She said in her
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: deposition that when David went to play bridge every day,
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: that he, quote, So now I'm wondering, what was he
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: supposedly lying about? Did she believe he was playing bridge
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: somewhere else? Was there something else going on there? According
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: to the depositions, there were also other issues between this
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: perfect couple and some of their other children. In 2009,
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: David Swan apparently had an issue with his son, David A. Swan,
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: and they weren't speaking as a result of that. And
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: according to the court documents, this dispute they had was
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: about money. During the deposition, something else came out. Noelle
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: apparently told people that the police considered her and possibly
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: one of her siblings to Suspects at one point. The
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: attorney questioning Noel asks, you did volunteer that you were aware,
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: for whatever reason, remaining as a suspect by the Clearwater
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: Police Department in this matter. She answers, we heard it
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: from a neighbor, didn't you? it from the police. And
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: we talked before about the freeze that police had put
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: on these funds. Noelle talks about trying to remove the
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: freeze from those funds and get access to them. She said, quote,
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: so it sounds like to remove the freeze, I need
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: to solve the case that the police are incapable of solving,
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: end quote. I can completely understand her frustration here because
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: it's been years and naturally I can understand why she
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: would want access to her mother's estate.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: At the same time, I can see the other side.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: The police don't want to get this wrong and they
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: want to keep those funds locked down until they know
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: exactly what happened. It also emerged in the depositions that
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: Mina's son, John Wolf, was terminally ill.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Noelle said.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: John had stage four cancer, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, and that over
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: the years, David and Mina had been helping him financially.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: Noelle said that John had a lot of health issues.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: They had left him basically unable to work. She said
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: he'd had the lifetime maximum of chemotherapy over the years,
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: and eventually his illness meant he got put on disability.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: So for several years, John lived at a property that
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: was owned by Mina on New York Avenue in Clearwater.
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: Noelle said John didn't pay rent, but for a long
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: time he did a lot of work on the property.
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: She said it really wasn't in very good shape, and
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: since he did construction-type work, he helped fix it up.
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: Noelle said that they needed to sell the home at
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: some point, and also John was getting sicker, and he
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: couldn't really keep up with the physical labor that he
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: needed to do on that property. So Noelle said she
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: found John an apartment for around $ 1, 000 a month. She
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: gave him emergency distributions from their mother's estate to pay
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: for his rent and his moving costs, which meant that
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: as of January 2022, $ 92, 000 had been taken out of
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: Minus One's estate. Just over $ 57, 000 of that was emergency
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: distributions to John. In the deposition, Noelle said police have
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: told her that they believe that her brother, John, is
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: faking his cancer. She said, quote, The police have accused
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: him of not being sick, which is insulting to those
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: of us who live with this every day, watching him.
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: We're focused on keeping him alive, end quote. She also
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: says that to her knowledge, John is still a suspect,
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: but she says that her brother William.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: Apparently is not. What emerged during.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: This deposition was a picture of John's finances and And
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: we know that he lived in Mina Swan's house for
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: several years with his son. His son was sick at
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: one point and had to go to Children's Hospital. But
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: Noelle said that a year or two before David and
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: Mina's deaths, circumstances started to change. She said that there
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: was apparently a buyer who was interested in the New
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: York Avenue house, the one that John was living in.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: She said that a couple days later, after this buyer contacted.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: David and Mina.
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: David went over to John's house and, quote, started screaming
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: at him and telling him he had to leave and
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: move out in seven days, end quote. Now, at this
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: point in the deposition, the attorney questioning Noelle starts asking
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: her about her mom's will. Noelle said that her understanding
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: was that David would take care of her mother. They
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: would keep their finances separate, as we've discussed. But Noelle
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: alleged that she'd learned a lot about David since her
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: mom's death. She said what she had learned had changed
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: her view of him. She said that before Mina got
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: involved with David, that her mom had a longtime financial broker. But,
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: Noel said, David allegedly pressured her mom to get rid
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: of this woman, who Noel said was a family friend.
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: She said that in 2012, this woman had witnessed David
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: put his hand over Mina's mouth and that he would
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: throw huge temper tantrums every time they would get into
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: arguments about money. Noel said that David tried to control
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: her mother financially. And Noelle said since David's death, she
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: looked into some court records. She said that she had
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: found records from Illinois that showed a lot of loans,
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: mortgage foreclosures, and what she called unusual behavior in David's records.
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: Noelle said she had a bad feeling about David because
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: in her opinion, he'd kind of taken advantage of her
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: mother when she was in a vulnerable position after her
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: father passed away. She said, quote, he moved into mom's
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: house weeks after dad's funeral, end quote. So reading between
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: the lines from Noelle's deposition, it appears that she believed
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: that David did kind of a bait and switch on
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: her mom, that he had presented himself as this amazing
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: businessman who was going to love Mina and take care
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: of her, and that he swept Mina off her feet
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: and took her on trips, promised her this great life,
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: but then in the end turned out to be very
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: controlling with money. Noelle claims her mom was not allowed
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: to have a cell phone or to open the mail
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: or to answer the phones. she claimed that David had
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: isolated her mother from her friends. Now, again, this is
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: only one side of the story. David's son, Stephen Swan,
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: has said publicly and in court documents that these allegations
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: are completely ridiculous. And obviously, this is only one person's
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: view of what was going on in this relationship. But
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: in my opinion, we absolutely need to find out more
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: about what was actually going on in that marriage. We
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: really need to talk to the family, and Mina Swan's friends.
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: Six months after Mina and David were found dead, the
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: families and law enforcement did a public update. Noelle made
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: a plea for new information.
• 36:21
  Speaker 5: So we are looking very, very much for answers. We
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: know that there's answers out there.
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: We know that.
• 36:27
  Speaker 5: We know someone out there knows something, and I hope
• 36:29
  Speaker 5: they'll share that information. It's extremely important to us. We
• 36:34
  Speaker 5: wanted the reward out there as a reminder that mom
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: was loved and very much missed. And now the one
• 36:50
  Speaker 5: thing that could help is finding the answers to what happened.
• 36:55
  Speaker 5: So please, if anyone knows something, if anyone hears anything,
• 36:58
  Speaker 5: if they've seen anything, please, please call the tip line.
• 37:02
  Speaker 5: It's very important. Don't hold back. We would really love
• 37:06
  Speaker 5: to find the answers in this case. We would like
• 37:09
  Speaker 5: to have our piece.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: Noelle and her brother William have spoken up during these
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: press conferences. John Wolfe also.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Made a brief statement.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: He said, Billboards have been posted across the Tampa Bay
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: area asking for information, and there's been several rewards offered.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: Right now, the reward is up to $ 53, 000. In 2020,
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: there was another update in the case. Again, this was
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: a little bit bizarre.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: This is something I had not seen before because in
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: September of 2020, the Clearwater Police Department released crime scene
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: photos in an attempt to help the case. It was
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: on the second anniversary, two years, no arrests. These photos, though,
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: are a little bit bizarre because they're not actually of
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: the crime scene. They're of the exterior of the house.
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: And they're these very mundane photos. I'm going to provide
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: a link to those because I'm really hoping that someone
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: out there will look at these and they will see
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: something that I miss or that the police miss. One
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: of the photos is a close-up shot of the Swans'
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: front door of their house. You can see the newspapers
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: in front of their residence. There's a Tampa Bay Times
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: newspaper on top and some other papers in a clear
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: plastic bag. I noticed, though, that the newspapers are neatly
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: lying one on top of the.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: Other next to the door.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: My first thought was, usually paper boys throw things in
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: the yard in a kind of crazy way.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: So who stacked those papers.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: There that neatly? There could be an explanation for it.
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: It could be the woman who knocked on the door
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: to try to give the Swans flyers or one of
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: the neighbors.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: But why would police not say that?
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: I zoomed in on the headline and the newspaper on
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: top was the Tampa Bay Times. I couldn't see the date,
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: but I googled the headline to figure out this was
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: the Tampa Bay Times from Saturday, September 29th, 2018. So
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: we have Saturday's newspaper, presumably on top of Friday's. Another
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: photo shows the Swans' mailbox, a white wooden box with
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: the address 1033 printed on it in black letters. There's
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: another picture of the open mailbox with letters inside it.
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: It's just a couple of envelopes and what appears to
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: be junk mail. I can't read what's on the envelopes,
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: and I've really tried. I've zoomed in a lot. Then
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: there's a photo of a car in a garage and
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: pictures of the screened-in back porch, or what we call
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: in Florida the lanai with the pool. But there's nothing
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: in the picture that I can see that stands out,
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: just a screened door and a closer look inside a
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: screened-in porch. The water is blue and clear in the pool.
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: I go back to what Chief of Police Dan Slaughter
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: told media. Based on the time they were last seen,
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: it's likely that David and Minus One were killed between
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: 3pm on Thursday and 3pm on the following day, Friday.
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: Officers are asking neighbors and friends of the couple to
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: focus on that 24-hour window. They say if anything unusual
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: stands out, regardless of how small it is, they want
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: to hear from you. If you know anything about this case,
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: please contact the Clearwater Police. The number to call there
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: is 727-562-4141. In the meantime, I'm going to keep following
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: up on this case because I absolutely believe that the
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: answers are out there. There's something that someone missed. There's
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: a missing piece of the puzzle, and we just have
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: to work together to try and figure it out. I'm
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: Katherine Townsend. This is Hell and Gone Murder Line. Hell
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: and Gone Murder Line is a production of School of
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and narrated by me,
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: Katherine Townsend, and produced by Gabby Watts. Music is by
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: Ben Salih. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: Elsie Crowley.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: If you have a case you'd.
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: Like me and my team to look into, you can
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: reach out to us at our Hellengal Murder Line at 678-744-6145.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: That's 678-744-6145.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: School of Humans.