Latest / WoT Spoilers / A New Commitment & In Darkness & A Crack in the Stone - The Gathering Storm chapters 24, 25, & 26 - EP526

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A New Commitment & In Darkness & A Crack in the Stone - The Gathering Storm chapters 24, 25, & 26 - EP526 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the wheel of time spoilers, bloodcast.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I got nothing else other than yeah, daylight savings.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Time is stupid.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all that.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: This weekend and it's dumb. Also, like the world is
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: a flaming forest fire of dumpster fires. But we are
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: not here to talk about that. We're here to talk
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: about the flaming dumpster fire that is gollin freaking truck hand.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: He's making a new commitment because he's totally forsaking all
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: of his old ones.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Somehow the forsaken would not let him join the ref
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: he begged.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know, he's just selfish enough.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: I don't like him. I don't like him.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: I mean this chapter in particular has the most egregious
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: examples of internal thoughts by Gowain that just make me go,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: oh my god, I can't believe this. Like this is
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: someone who I thought I would like when he was introduced.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he has just Oh I want to punch him.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: I want to punch him so hard, Like I'm so
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: mad at Brynn for not punching him right like.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Right like, or imprisoning him or like taking him as
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: a cat, like what the hell? Yeah, Like they're just like, oh,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: you get okay, you can wander around my camp after
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: you've like led the opposing forces and killed a bunch
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: of my men and or stabbed a bunch of men
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: when you came into camp.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is nobility privilege is what this is.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is definitely that. Yes, this is this is
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: a rich man getting away with stuff because he's rich. Yeah, exactly.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: So you're a prince, so I'm not going to treat
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: you like a common person. Like, no, treat him like
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: a common person. This is a shit back look at him,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: look at a shit eating grin.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: I'd say, the only good parts of this chapter, Oh
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: my god, I can't believe I'm saying like that, But
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: the parts of the chapter I enjoyed was sort of
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: seeing him observe the camp. I thought, the observations of
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: how the camp was laid out and the sprawl and
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: the world building here in the front is pretty good,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: even though it's through Godwin's eyes.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean we've seen all of that before,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: but it is nice to see it again. Like the
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: way that the camp followers are a larger literal force
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: than the army that it supports. It's as cool that's cool,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: like real world world building. And the larger thing I
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: didn't want to say I liked it about the chapter,
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: but the larger theme for the three chapters that were
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: going to cover today is really about authority, like who
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: can assume authority, who gives you authority, where it comes from,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: the confidence that goes with it, like who is is
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: mapping to wear on that map of authority and who
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: takes it and what that means for the people around them.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Gowen is one example, Chamarn is another example. Avianda is
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: another example. Like it just Gowen starts us out strong
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: on that conversation. Yeah a gwayn right. It's like he
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: he starts us out strong in terms of having that
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: be a thing that we're thinking about. He's just taking
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: all the wrong lessons from the conversation. So that's that's
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: one thing I have to keep in mind that, you know,
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: Gowan does give us some of that because he's like,
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: you know, taking some authority upon himself that he should
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: not be with full confidence. And it is a.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Problem gowin problem number one complaining about sleeping in his
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: cloak for two freaking nights two nights, and he's like
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: all like snippy with Gareth brand because he hasn't had
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: enough sleep and he's tired, and it's like, dude, how
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: many other characters have in this series have been on
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: the road for weeks or sleeping rough for a long time?
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: And yeah, don't get me wrong, they like a bath,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: but two freaking nights. Come on, even I've camped longer
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: than that, And like, don't get me wrong, right, you know, right,
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: but like the irritable and crankiness, I'm just like you.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: You should be able to rough it for longer than that.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: You live in a medieval world.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, precisely. Oh, I should probably mention that this
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: chapter is called Chapter twenty four, a New Commitment, and
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: the symbol is the bull with the roses around its neck,
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: which I believe is the Gareth Brinn symbol.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: The Gareth Yes it is. Yeah, it's the Gareth Brynn
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: the House of brind symbol, the garland of roses around
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: his neck, right right after Judy.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Garland naturally, naturally.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm not even I don't even want to
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: read in on this.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that totally makes sense. That totally makes sense.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Okay, So yeah, first, which, yeah, then he uses that
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: as an excuse his tiredness to snip at Gareth Brynn
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: through the entire chapter and it's just like.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, and he uses it as an excuse for getting
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: into a fight that injures people. Yeah, He's like, well,
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: I'm just tired, and that's why I picked a fight
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: with five men and injured four of them, assuming that
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: magic healers were just gonna spring out of the woodwork.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: And Frind's like, that's literally not how it works. Maybe
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: check first before you give people injuries. You fucking like, oh,
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: just heal them? Like what, sir, sir? Like what privilege? Like,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: I'll just call my dad and he'll bail me out
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: of prison. Like it's fine, Like not everyone has that.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that is that. Well, you can just get
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: I sid a healing, right, And we find out Guysfriend's
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: like not really like they're not They don't really come
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: into camp. They I have to peg them to heal
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: even the lightest wounds. They're kind of busy, right, Like,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: so we find out later in the chapter that like
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: they don't even get the healing that he thinks they're
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: gonna get. They probably don't.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because privilege. He's just so privileged like he's like,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: I would literally rather pick a fight and like risk
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: getting my horse shot by crossbow bolts, then just go
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: up the chain of command through the proper shop.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Oh god, yeah, well that was another thing that makes
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: them just scummy. Oh yeah, I'll just take shelter behind
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: my horse because he can probably survive a few bolts.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: I can't, fuck you, dude, Well maybe just not. Don't
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: start a confrontation with your allies or the people you're
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: trying to make your allies. Uh, how about this one,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: here's another god one. I'll save her somehow, then I'll
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: talk some sense into her. Fuck you, sir, When we
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: know Agwayne can get out at any time, She does
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: not need rescuing. She is capable of having someone come
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: get her with a gateway at any point.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and what sense are you going to talk into her?
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: She is steering the White Tower itself, two halves divided
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: against each other. She is steering both of them. Spoiled
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: princeling ass thinks you're going to make her be more
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: quote unquote rational than she already is. Managing all of
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: these women like you so fucking misogynists, so patronizing.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: When he might being the most irrational because he's trying
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: to support compulsion in his head. You did say you
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: saw some you mentioned to me or before the recording,
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: he saw some evidence of compulsion in this chapter, or
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: at least some possible evidence.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a couple of lines that could fit into
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: your theory. Like he puts his hand to his head
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: suddenly feeling tired and going, wow, you're right, I've really
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: been an idiot. But like that's a perfectly normal human
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: thing to do. That is not like people running high
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: on emotion can have all that emotion drain away and
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: suddenly they realize they're tired. That's a very normal thing.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: We don't need compulsion to explain that.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: We don't need convulsion to explain.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: It, but we could have.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Explain it.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, exactly. It's a few things where it's like,
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: well maybe or like he, uh, what's this other line?
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: For the first time in months his actions matched his heart.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Huh right, Like that's you know, that struggle is being resolved. Right. Also,
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: people can have cognitive dissonance and do terrible things and
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: then ultimately decide those things were terrible and they needed
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: to stop doing that because it was percolating for a
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: long time, also a very normal human experience. You don't
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: need compulsion for that, but as a treat, we can
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: have it if we want. If you would like to
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: headcanon that way, here is your evidence.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Here's another paragraph that kind of pissed me off. See
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: if you can figure out what part of it. To
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: reach the command post, you had to ride through the
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: camp followers who out and numbered the actual troops. Cooks
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: to fix the food, women to serve the food, wagon
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: drivers to carry the food, wheel rights to fix the wagons,
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: blacksmiths to make the horseshoes, merchants to buy the food,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: quartermasters to organize it. That boys, you know everything there
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: is a job title except for one. Women to serve
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: the food and wash the soiled dishes.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: That's what women can do.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: That's all that women can clean.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: There's never been a woman quartermaster or blacksmith or wheelwright.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: None of those things ever have been done by women
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: any part of human history.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, it was just god, he did such a good
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: job of writing. Colin. It's just a real pig. I
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: hope it was an accident. I hope it wasn't an accident.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Oh my god. And he even like at one point
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: when he when he's headed in, he snaps at Chimarin
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: right like he's going through the crowd and this woman
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: gets in his way and he like snaps at her.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: He's like, oh, my mother would be so ashamed of
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: me talking like being mean to the common people. But
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: my mommy's dead, so I could be mean to the
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: common people if I want. It's just like, oh my god, dude,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: you're just gonna snap at a woman and then be like,
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: I have the right because I think that my mom
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: was murdered, Like this random woman has nothing to do
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: with that. You need to be nice.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: You suck no, no, because women are treated badly. I
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: can treat women badly. Don't you see how that works.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: I know I said he had class consciousness last time,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: but like, m this time, he's really trying me.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: And I think that's one of the things that really
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: bugs me about Goblin is how inconsistent he is with
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: his like being good to people.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's very transactional. He's very fucking transactional. Again, privileged
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: fucking takes.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: And of course that woman who stumbles in front of
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: him is uh Chamaron Chamaron an name. This is the
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: one who we saw demoted by Alida. You know, she
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: was an ally of Alaida. Alida demoted her to accepted,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: which she or Nolace right, Molvis are accepted apt I
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: thought it was accepted, which she accepted, which was a
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: problem the demotion, And then she's basically trying to find
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: her way as a working woman out in the world
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: and is no longer considers herself I said, I even
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: though nothing has changed about her whatsoever.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the wild thing is that Alida assumed the
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: authority to take away her eyes Sidie ship without doing
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: anything magical, and Shamaran has accepted that so completely that
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: even the three oaths don't stop her from saying she's
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: not is Todie right.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Which is crazy. It's crazy. That's kind of the only
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: way you cannot be ice and eyes if you can
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: believe that you're not despite everything she's gone through.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: And like Swan and Agwayne have made the argument that
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: the three oaths are part of what makes isidaie eyes
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: to dye. She explicitly didn't have the oaths removed, which,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: like honestly ilied if you were actually going to demote
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: someone that would involve stripping them of the oaths, I
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: would think in order to actually you can't just wave
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: your hands and then leave them bound to the three o's.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: That's wholly inappropriate. So like, what the fuck is even happening?
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: It's so silly, But you know these are the mental
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: pretzels a fascism. I mean the part where Chamaran is
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: a test case to see how far illegal use of
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: power can be used. I mean a recording this what
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: the day after my mood, Khalil got just nabbed from
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: his dorm room, just completely fucking disappeared. Like we're still
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: in the throes of that being a thing. I don't
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: know how much anyone here has followed that, but like
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: it's very much on my mind.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: It's the first on hearing of it.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a guy who's on he's a permanent resident
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: on a green card, and agents showed up saying we
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: don't give a good goddamn about all of your paperwork
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: because you were leading pro Palestinian protests last year and
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: we are going to disappear you and deport you for
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: being against our our nation's aims. It's a developing thing.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: He's currently being held in Louisiana. Last I heard. It's
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: it's it's a test case. It is a clear cut
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: test case of can we disappear people illegally? Can we
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: get away with that? Like schamern as a test case
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: for ken you do? I mean? It says so in
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: the chapter where we actually see her, like this was
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: a test case for her Alida to use against her
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: real enemies. This is happening in real life right now
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: as we are recording this. There is a test case
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: for can we disappear people because we don't like their politics?
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: And this is got one stumbling upon someone who has disappeared.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yep, yeah, this is the test case. She
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: hasn't really been disappeared so much as demoted, but like
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: a test case for illegal use of power that like
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: if you accept it, then it's real. And obviously in
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: the case of my mood Khalil, like it's less about
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: him accepting it and more about the rest of us
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: right accepting it, you know, like this is a test
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: of us as a society. But when it comes to
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: the ISID diet as a test of your mental fortitude,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: which is really what we see in the avienda chapter
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: right with the whole like what a wise one is
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: is someone who asserts her own power regardless of what
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: others say, again proving that the a yel, however problematic,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: are in many ways pretty freakin' admirable for randline cultures.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, but that does lead to dangers Like Savannah. They
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: point that out right, like it is possible to have
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: an issue where someone can just declare I have power,
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: and if you don't have the social norms in place
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: to stop them, they can just take that power.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but let's throw the baby out with the bathwater.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Their system is still better than everyone else's.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: What if I don't want the baby.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: Then you should not have had one in the bath
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: in the first place.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: No, it's you know, I know, we try not to
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: talk too much about Trump and modern day politics, but
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: it is this idea that, like history repeats itself, and
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: so Jordan's writing this based on historical things that have
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: happened in the past and we're seeing them repeat in
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: the present. And it's why I think it feels so
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: apt because grabs for power and fascism kind of always
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: occur in a very similar pattern, and when one's written
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: as accurately as Jordan has written, that grab for power
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: across multiple different cultures in multiple different ways. Of course,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: we're going to find comparisons between a modern day power
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: grab and multiple ones written in these books.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: No, that's the thing is that these fascist fuckheads have
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: exactly one playbook, and no matter which part of history
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: you study, or which piece of fiction riffing off of
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: which piece of history you study, it comes down to
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: the same playbook every freaking time.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: It's like when you play the fighting game against your
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: little brother and he just has the one move that
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: he mashes over and over and over again, but it's
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: still incredibly effective, and it's really infuriating when he starts
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: win winning games and no one can figure out how
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: to stop him until that one person who's really talented
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: comes in and you know, drops a Newgon's ass. Anyway, goll,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: So back to Gollin fighting these four guys and you know,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: knocking one out by hitting him on the head, which,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: of course you know he's fine, just a little bit
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: of brain damage as weion fantasy concussion, they don't actually exist.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: And then two leg wounds for people in their aortas
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: like or not, the orders that's in the heart female artery. Yeah,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: I'm sure they're fine, just bleeding out on the ground.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Also, then going is like alone blade mess to conquered
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: four men and ten hotbeats, And I'm like, was it
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: ten heart beats?
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Sir?
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: I feel like your heart would beating pretty fast at
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: this point. I really doubt the ten heart beats. Just
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: small quibble, but I don't believe it.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Did you even have time to summon your shard blade?
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, really is it's a Sanderson reference?
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Never mind, I know, I know, and his panic.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: He's like, I have to go now now, now going
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: to be dead by now, Dude, She's been in prison
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: for weeks. Your five minutes of waiting for someone to
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: show up is not like wounding four men, so you
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: don't have to wait a few minutes. Isn't gonna make
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: a fucking difference.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: It's so ridiculous, Like, yes, A Gwain's situation is moving
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: quickly at this point, but he has no way of
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: knowing that. And even so, the ten minutes necessary to
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: follow the proper order of paperwork and pham trees is
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: not like it's just not it's not. It's not the
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: end of the world, like it's so his his sense
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: of urgency is really out of control.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes it is. And it's like he's compelled or
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: something to support the ambulance seat and has to go.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: It's like he's a dipshit by nature.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Well, yes too.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: And then also we have an early foreshadowing of how
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Tam takes kad swaying down a peg when Brinn's like, oh, what,
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: you're gonna fight me to prove that you're right? Do
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: you think that you have better sword skills than me
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: equals you have better opinions than me? Are you a
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: fucking child right now?
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, the answers yes.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: I know, I know the answer is totally yes. But
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: like I do like Brynn being like bully tactics and
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: might makes right is not how we win the last battle.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: That's not That's not what we're doing on the Good
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Guys team.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Golin notices that, like someone's cleaning up for Brinn.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Obviously that's gonna be sou on.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Someone meticulous to tidy up for him. Because she has
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: everything shipshape, because boats. I'm choosing to believe that it's
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: a because boats, not because women, Am I right.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go with that. Also, that she's got
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: men doing the actual laundry.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Men's not here, oh not anymore.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: That's right. She's got that's right. She has novices doing
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: her laundry, and she's doing Gowins. That's right.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Prince Prince, she is not going to do Gomins laundry.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: No, absolutely not his his uh whitey Oh gosh, I
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: want to make a whitey tidy joke, but mingle that
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: with white cloak joke, right, whitey tidy cloaks.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: That's a lot.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: That's a lot, I know, I.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Know, all right, So I do like the part where
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Brynn is drinking tea he doesn't like and Gowan asks
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: why he grumbles when it's supposed to be good for
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: my health, and it's like, oh, he likes Swan. He's
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: drinking the tea, and she likes him because she's like,
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: you need to drink that for your health. Like ah,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: there's like that. That is a level of antagonistic flirting
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: that I find very cute. And then yeah, I think
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: the next big is Brinn discovering who Gowen is with
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: respect to the enemy forces. I think we should probably
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: touch on that briefly. That he gets real pissed when
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: he's like, I've been losing men like dead.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: You've killed my men. Yeah, you you and your strategy
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: and your knowledge because you know who I was. You
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: knew I was leading these troops, and you used your
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: knowledge of my strategy that I taught you to hunt
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: down and kill men with who I thought would be safe.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: But you use personal knowledge of me and my strategies
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: to kill my men. Like the fact that he doesn't
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: right then and there throw him in the stockade to
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: never ever ever come back out again or whatever, like
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: prison he's got is pretty remarkable to me.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: I would have liked to see him backhand Gwin so
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: hard he doesn't regain consciousness until he's locked in the
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: stocks like that's with the recorrect reaction, and.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: Then ransom them back to the White Tower uh.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Huh uh huh or to Elaine either way, fucking make
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: him a pain in the ass for someone else and
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: make him totally out of the picture, like tie him
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: up and leave him in a dirty cell with one
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: bowl of gruel a day. We don't like going on
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: this podcast.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Here's here's the quote. We'll see the sisters rarely visit
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: the soldiers. They've their own business, isn't about. It's like, yeah,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: you're not gonna get healing for those men.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And then and then Gowan's trying to be like
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: I gotta kill al Thor, and Brin's like, also bad call,
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: because Morgaze was ruining and or not just being mean
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: to me as an next lover, but like ruining Andor
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: and Gowan's like, I la la la la la la la,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: I can't hear you.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: And Gareth Brynn's like, first of all, he didn't kill
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: your mother, and even if he did, that probably was
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: for a good reason, right, Like he I don't believe
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: that this man came in here and killed her out
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: of spite or to fuck with you, or because he's cruel.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: It's because your mother was literally destroying everything we cared about.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: And or yeah, and Gowan's like no, no, no, which
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: like okay, okay. So again, he is so confident in
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: his knowledge he will not accept other information, and this
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: is something that can be good, right. This is part
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: of what Aviende's lesson is is that sometimes you have
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: to stand up against all the wise ones and say no,
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: I am correct. That is an important part of assuming authority.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: It can go too far when you will not be
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: checked by anyone or anything whatsoever. And you were silly
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: child like Gau and Tracante, right, like this is there
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: is not an easy answer. Every person, every situation has
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: to be approached in its own way. Yes, yes, And
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: it's a real interesting knife edge to walk between those
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: two different outcomes.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the difference between being right and being wrong. It's
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: like you have to support yourself, but you also have
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: to be open to the fact that you might be wrong.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: But then, like, how do you I struggle with that, right,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: I struggle with that at work all the time because
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: I often have to take actions at work based on
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: a very complicated machine where there's zero way to know
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: the status of everything that's going on, and so I
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: have to basically say, okay, based on my best guess,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: I have to take step forward. But I could be wrong, right,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: It's a percentage thing. So yeah, I don't know. It's
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: a tough place to know. Like where do you ask
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: for help and where do you trust your own judgment? Yeah,
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: And I think that's experience. That's where experience really comes in.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: And that's something that a lot of our characters really
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: have very little of. I mean, they're gaining it quickly
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: because of the way the world works. But they're still
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: pretty young, right.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, Auvianda has been getting trained specifically to come
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: to that realization, whereas Gowan has been freewheeling it whatever
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: it is that he's doing this whole time. He has
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: not had a focused course of study to bring him
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: that confidence and experience like Avianda has.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: No, he's literally been put out to past year in
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: an attempt to kill him, right, Like.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, but I just I think it's interesting
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: to contrast Gawain's unshakable wrongness with Avienda's ultimate realization of
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: her own power. They're just so much the.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Same but different, same but different but the same.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just it's it's important to realize that Gwen
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: is not frustrating for no reason, right, He is frustrating
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: because this is a real human experience of being wrong
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: and being right. And what does that mean? Where does
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: confidence come from? Where does authority come from? Who are
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: you trying to impress and why? And on what grounds?
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Like it's not easy, and it's good to see someone
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: really complexly and completely fucking it up.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah no, And like Brinn asks all the right questions,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: what have you been doing that is more important than that,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: and Gowin I grew entangled and that's and that's what
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: clues him in that. Bren's like, wait a minute, what
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: have you been doing you? How did you know all this?
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: What rock have you been living under? Exactly? Oh? That rock,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: the White Tower rock. Hmmmm, yeah it's a and the
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: way that, yeah, the way that Gawain says, Oh, my sister,
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: who I'm swore to protect, has finally achieved the throne
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: where she needs a first prince of the sword. I
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: am going to abandon that for the sake of my
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: not quite a girlfriend who does not know I am
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: here and has no knowledge of wanting anything from me.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: I'm going to dismiss her and the oath I've made
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: to my sister all in one fell swoop and also
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: fuck author like bro.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: And his excuse is like Agwayine is with the Iceid Eye,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: and I thought Elaine was as well. So that's why
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: I'm just, you know, hanging out with the Iceid Eye.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: But you knew they were with the rebels. Why are
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: you hanging out with the Tower? Uh? It's is logic.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: It just pisses me off, which I guess is a
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: well written character.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, we have strong feelings about him, so you know,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: it's very memorable character. The whole phantom has an opinion
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: on him.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: But he dreamed about having sex with a GWayne once
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: or twice.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: He didn't even know it was a real dream, like
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: a real dream world dream. He didn't even know that
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: was a possibility. All I've ever done is make out
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: and disagree on politics. That's just so not the basis
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: for throwing away your lifelong oath to yourself. It's so dumb,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Like Elaine needs you just because she has the throne
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean she doesn't need you.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Mention you should have been there while she was getting
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: the throne.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, first of all, you should have been there, But
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: now that you know you should be high tailoring. You
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: should be asking Bryn for a fresh horse and high
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: tailing it out of there.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Or a gateway or a gateway.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: He just don't gateways exists. Maybe these Army has gateways,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: Like yeah, it's just so he should be flipping over
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: to go to Elaine in Camlin. So at the second
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: he hears what that, you should be like, you're right,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: I've been fucking up, but I'm gonna make it good
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: right now, I'm gonna go first, Prince of the Sword.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: So good, Brigida can actually.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Have a day off God and Gowin's response when Brin's like, oh,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: you should be an Andoor, He's like, no, you should
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: be an Andor. And he's like, no, your mother threw
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: me out, and like, my place is not there anymore.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: You actually swore an oath to the person who's currently
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: sitting in and Or. Yeah, I have not ye yeah.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. He's like, I literally was told to leave. You
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: were not We are not the same.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: And Gowin trying to he's saying that his mother had
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: a good motive for all the shit she did.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: No, she didn't know. You weren't there. The man who
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: was there and who has three times the lived experience
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: if you knows better than you what happened, obviously. Yeah,
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: he's just so privileged. He's just in such a little
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: privileged bubble. And then we get distracted with the quest
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: to find Shamaran because maybe she's a tower spy, and
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: we have to spend a lot of time talking about
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: how she looks different than all the other washwomen and stereotypes. Stereotype, stereotype.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I have nothing further they discover her, and
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: they bring her back to question her about why she's
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: hanging out, and they get information in the next chapter.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So moving to the next chapter.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Moving the next chapter, chapter twenty five, we are symbol
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: as the dark friend symbol. The two women of opposite
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: colors face to face. Uh, and it's called in darkness
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: because it's cheerium and she's a dark friend alert obviously.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very very dark friendly chapter. Shiiam peeked
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: into her dark tent hesitant, but saw nothing inside. Allowing
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: herself a smile of satisfaction, she stepped in and drew
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: the flaps closed. Things were going quite well for once.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Of course, she still checked her tent before she entered,
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: searching for the one who had sometimes lurked inside, the
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: one whom she'd never been able to sense. It always
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: felt as though she should. Yes, Shariam still checked, and
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: probably would for months yet, but there was no need now.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: No phantom waited to punish her. The square little tent
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: was large enough to stand up in, with a cot
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: along one side and a trunk along the other. There
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: was just room for a desk, but it was so
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: crowd the space that she barely be able to move. Besides,
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: there was a perfectly acceptable desk nearby in a Gwaine's
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: unused tent. There had been talk of giving that tent
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: to someone else. Most sisters had to share, though more
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: tents were being brought in each week. However, the Omerland's
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: tent was a symbol. As long as there was hope
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: of Agwaine's return, her tent should wait for her. It
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: was kept neat by the inconsolable Chasa, whom Shiiam still
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: caught crying about her mistress's captivity. Well, so long as
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Agwaine was away, that tent was functionally Shiryam's for all
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: but sleeping. After all, an Armerland's keeper was expected to
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: look after her affairs. Shiiam smiled again, sitting down on
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: her cot. Not long ago, her life had been a
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: perpetual cycle of frustration and pain. Now that was over.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Bless Romanda, whatever else Shiryam thought of. The fool woman.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Romanda had been the one to chase Heleima and Shiryam's
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: punishments out of the camp. Pain would come again. There
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: was always agony and punishment involved in the service she gave,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: But she had learned to take the times of peace
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: and to cherish them. And I'll cut it there because
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: I think that's a good peek into Shiiam's headspace at
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: the opening of this chapter.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: I like how deep we get into Sharriam's Why did
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: it have to be end times? Now? I just wanted
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: to get ahead of my sisters. I really love that
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: diatribe from her, really well written, really good insight into
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: her character, this idea that like she really wasn't anticipating
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: being a dark, dark friend. She just thought, you know, hey,
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: it's something that my girlfriends are getting to. It's like
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: witchcraft whatever.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: You know, She's just joining one of those weird secret
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: societies in college because that's how you get ahead in
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: law school. And it turns out that, like you can
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: actually summon the devil. What I thought this was just
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: a drinking party.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: Wait that prophecies true? Now, Like I mean it was true.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: I just think it would happen now, Like why me?
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: I love that inversion on the thirteen most powerful evil
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: dedicated to nihilism. And then there's just like I thought
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: this was a way to get ahead in office politics,
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: Like I did not expect for this to be a
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: real big deal kind of thing. I thought this was
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: going to be an extra weird feather in my cap
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: and that was it.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: God damn it. I accidentally became important at work. Shoot
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: are looking to me to do things, and the punishments
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: will continue.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: And I also like the part where she's she's not
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: evil in the same way as a lot of the
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: other dark friends that we've seen. She very much has
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: been forced to become evil because that's how you play
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: the game, but it has been reluctant rather than like, Ooh,
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: this is the way I get to torture people, this
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: is the way I get to have power over people
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: in a like an evil capital e kind of way.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: She just kind of was like, oh that that keeps escalating.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: But in a way, in a way, isn't she more then?
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Well that's the point, right right, Like.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: This is sort of this is true evil because this
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: is truly where people gets caught up. And this is
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: where most people find themselves in a situation where they're
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: doing evil things but don't think of themselves as an
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: evil person because they just join the group to get
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: a little bit ahead, and one step leads to another
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: leads to another where they're where to avoid pain, avoid punishment,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: avoid firing. You end up doing something that you find
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: extremely unethical, but you feel like you have to do
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: it anyway, right.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: And it's not like with Varren right where Verin actually
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: decides to like go double agent on it and make
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: the best of a bad situation. This is someone who
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: has no spine and keeps making little compromises and justifying
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: it to themselves and never has any kind of larger
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: overarching cosmology to fit that into. Because I mean, Varyn
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: did horrible things. What was taking notes right, like Shirian's
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: just whining about how she didn't want to get into
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: it for horrible things.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Reminds me of the difference between the difference between science
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: and fucking around no writing down the results.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: A uh huh uh huh. Once you start writing it down,
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: now you have transcended into science. Fucking around off and
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: inspires that. But it isn't science until.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: You start making doing recordings, making data, doing that sort
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: of thing. So the difference between being a shitty dark
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: friend and being a cool triple agent writing it down right.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: Right, because because yeah, Sharim just is like oh boohoo me,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: whereas Varon was like, well shit, now, what you know,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: varyin yes, and died that.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Time to take down the black Auja from the inside. Okay,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: here we go.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but but Shiiam is a far more relatable form
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: of evil, like, oh well, if I just don't say
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: anything to my boss, if I don't stand up at work,
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: if I don't insist on this or that concession, then
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: I'll be able to get ahead this time, and maybe later,
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: when I have power, I can do something better. And
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: then pretty soon your eight generations deep in a racial
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: cast system. And it's like that didn't didn't work out
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: so well? Did it? Right? And Shiriam's only been doing
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: this since, you know, sometime in the last ten years.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: But like, imagine the damage that an army of people
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: who lived for five hundred years can do, you know.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: So I have a question, did Ramanda really chase Sleima out?
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: I don't remember that.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Romanda is the one who said we have to arrest
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: Delana and Helema. Ramanda was the one who connected the
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: dots andone. Oh shit, you guys, I know, I know,
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: I know, I know what the problem is. We gotta
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: go get that.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: But I feel like they were already gone at that point.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: It was all on the same day. It was because
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: of the ashaman in camp. And then Narishma was like
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: a man just tried to eavesdrop or something like that,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: and then Ramanda was like, we gotta go arrest Delana.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: And then the line is like she had to explain,
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: of course, right, because she has the light bulb flash
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: and in the time it takes her to explain, yeah,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: the opportunity has already been lost as soon as the
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: weave gets detected, I'm assuming is when Helena says we
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: gotta leave, because obviously Helena was the one who was
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: trying to eavesdrop. So yeah, but it all happens in
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: just a matter of minutes, as I understand it.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: And so while she's sort of sitting there in her
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: tent moaning over the fact that it's the end of days,
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: she gets a visit from a different Forsaken. Instead of
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Lima aka Bathamel Belthamel however you want to call the
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: original name, she is now getting visited by Messana. Yes, indeed,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: it's definitely Massana, right, like.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's her distinctive costume.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: Distinctive costume. We see her make the gateway back to
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: the tower, which is her home base, Like this is,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: you know, very obviously Massana. Now that there's not a
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: forsaken in the rebel camp, it seems like she's now
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: trying to manage both the rebel camp and the tower itself.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: So she's sort of taken out. This is what happens
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: when one of your coworkers quits. They don't get a replacement,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: They just give you both jobs. Right, What's She's been
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: doing good work? So what does she get for a
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: good work? More work? Yeah? Keep these tube apart, right,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: that's her goal. She's trying to keep to the two
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: towers apart. She's trying to do the exact opposite that
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Agwaye is doing. So that's why she's She's like, oh,
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: how are all these people meeting? And she gets the
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: report that they're meeting in the dreams with these Tarroan Greols.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: She's like, we'll steal the tongue, real tarroanngreol so they
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: can't meet with the ambulance seat anymore.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: Right, and also get rid of your Amberlin' seat. We
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: thought we were getting a week will child. We got
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: a woman with the face of a child. It is
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: not working out. She is unifying the tower. Despite everything
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: we can do, you got to depose that bitch. And sure,
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: i'm's like with the whiplash right.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Now, right, because she's like, you're the ones that right
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: right right.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: But you know, Missana is correct. Agwaine is putting the
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: tower back together despite everything being thrown at her. It
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: makes sense for them to want to depose her in
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: terms of keeping the opposition going because Agwayne is somehow
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: opposing so hard. She's bringing it back together right.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Right right, And it's like, yes, she's Massana's seeing her
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: well laid plans, the schism that she created falling apart, right,
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: She's seeing people start to support Agwayne. She's seeing the
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: rebels all also supporting a GWayne. They are united, even
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: even under Lelane, who's starting to win this war between
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: her LANDA right, Lane's winning it by supporting a Gwaine.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmmmm speaking of Aguaine.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, POV switch to a GWayne in the dungeon talking
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: to another size to.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Die, Yes, and do you remember which one she is?
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: Can you give her? Do you have the backstory on Ciane?
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Off the top of my head, I am pretty sure
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: she is the white in charge of the Black Auja
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: hunting team.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: Got it. So is she Isn't she one of the
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: rebels though? No, no, okay, but she's pledged allegiance to
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Agwayne at this point. Basically, No, she's not one of
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: those groups, but she's.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Now she's impressed with Agwayine. She's tried to out logic
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Aguaine when she came down to the meeting and was
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: talking to them. Siane is who Alida first went to
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: to bring down Alvr and Aka discovered the entire black atcha.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: Ciane's the one that went to Pavara, and Ciane is
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: the one that was kind of the final boss for
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: convincing the group that Agwaine is not a child, right, Yeah,
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: well but so and she's a sitter.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: And this is where I'd say they're not necessarily on
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: her side. But she went down and confronted them and
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: had that moment with them, and like there's a certain
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: amount of like the rebels and this group and Agwaine
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: are all doing things under Alida's nose, yes, that they're
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: not supposed to be doing, and so they're they're not
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: necessarily on the same side. So which is they all
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: have the same person they're conspiring conspiring against which is Alida.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: The strange Bedfellows is getting very strange, right.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: And and so I sort of think of them as
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: on a Gwayne's side, even though she's not specifically.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're not pledged to her, no, but yeah, they're
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: kind of working to undermine Elida and they would kind
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: of rather have Agwayne. And it's there, they're in that
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: transitioning process because she out talked all of them, and
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Yane as the white it was like.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Damn yeah no. And they get their support once Alida's
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: cannapped in the next.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: Few Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I mean,
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: as you can see here, because Sane is bringing Igwaine
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: information and giving her updates and treating her like a
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: rebel Omerlin who has a viable right to the contest
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: and who needs to be treated as a person of respect.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Like Siane's giving her.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: That respect and Agwaine is giving her command. She's like,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: keep bringing these things up, keep talking about these things,
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: like I want you to stir up this descent against
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: Alida and be like, yo, she is really fucked up,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: Like keep bringing and and Siane says sure, yeah, okay, right,
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: So there's a certain amount of like doing what she
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: wants right.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Because they're working to the same ends, and Ciane was
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: able to prove that to herself when they had that
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: confrontation in the basement. She's like, I know what, GWayne
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: is working to the same ends as me, more than
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: the light it is. GWayne is telling me, this is
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: what you need to do to help prepare the tower
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: to better face the last battle. And who doesn't want
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: the tower better prepared to face the last battle?
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: And you know what, it's hard to prepare for a
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: battle when the kitchen's on the sixth level. You do
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: not want kitchens on sex level. You've got fires and
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: like And.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: They don't have indoor plumbing as far as I know,
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: which means all the water has to be carried up
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: through some mechanical or human means or magical right, which
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: I think we mostly just see servants carrying buckets of water.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: I don't think that they've ever engineered a single solution
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: with even regular ropes, much less the power.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: That's always crazy to me when like wizards can't come
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: up with indoor plumbing.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: I know, I'm like, your medieval realism is missing a
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: bit of the touch of God adding magic to the world.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Like I've come to like magic systems where they kind
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: of recreate the modern world just with magic instead of
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: like gasoline and electricity.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, totally, because that's fun. It's blending technology and
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: magic is more fun than just we have no concept
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: of engineering. We just have big bataboom magic.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we can creat gwen yar. I can't think how
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: that would be useful in an engineering in any way,
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: shape or form.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: You know what it is is it's because those stories
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: tend to be old fairy tales being retold for a
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: modern audience, and fairy tales are set in a pre
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: industrial setting.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Kind of by definition, that makes sense.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: It's hard to put fairy tales in a more modern
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: context than it feels like sci fi. It doesn't feel
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: like a fairy tale anyway. Yeah, that's all I got
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: for the chapter.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: Oh, Gwyne, I must stay firm. I warmed this pot myself,
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: and now I must boil in it if that's what
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: will protect the tower. Yeah, that's a GWayne, just in
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: our cell being like, I gotta keep trying. I can't
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: give up.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: The one last thing here is the very last line
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: they knew she continued to resist. That was all she
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: could give them. And I was thinking in the next
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: chapter with Avienda, how she's so frustrated that all she
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: can do is this little punishment, right, And like again,
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: there's these really interesting contrasts where Agwayne is experiencing that
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: confinement as an actual act of resistance, whereas Avienda is
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: experiencing it as the final straw that pushes her to
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: embrace her power. And like, they are very similar situations
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, and they both take very
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: correct interpretations that are wildly different. Like again, these things
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: are not one answer, They truly aren't. Avienda is not
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: bringing honor to herself by suffering the punishment. Agwayne is.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: You know that makes sense. I feel like they're both
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: speaking out against unjust punishment in different ways, right, one
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: is by your allies and one is by your enemies.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: But either way it's unjust. And you can know your
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: allies and say, hey, I'm the same as you. You
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: shouldn't be punishing me. And with your enemies, you just
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: have to say this is unjust. I will bear it,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: but it is unjust. Yeah, And by bearing it and
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: saying it does not matter, I will bear it no
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: matter what you do to me. It's sort of people
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: around you can be like, oh yeah, wow, that really
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: seems outsized punishment for what happened, and that's how you
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: fight the person. Yeah.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And in both cases you have to have a
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: very strong internal sense of what is right for you
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: in that situation. I get something Gowain does not have.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Gowain has no idea what is right for him, Agwayne
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: and Avienda, No, he.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: Believes random rumors. That's what's right. Not any of the
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: people around him. He's trust, just random rumors.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Agwayne and Avienda actually have an internal compass that
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: points in a steady direction. And Avienda needs to get
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: a little bit over her internal gaslighting. But both of
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: them have an internal compass that is stronger than external forces,
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: stronger than random rumors, is stronger than old Mill the pedlar.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: All right, third chapter of the day. We are not
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: even an hour into recording. Look at us doing what
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: we said we were.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: Going to do.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: Gold star for us starting in on chapter twenty six,
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: a crack in the stone, and our symbol is the
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: unweaving Teleron real pattern of Age's symbol.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking of evil, yeah, basically, yeah.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because we have the roaches that pop up in
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: the tent later, not in the Avianda POV, but later
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: in the chapter.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, which is that's a fun bubble of evil.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: It's so crossyte, it's so so visceral. Say yes, it's
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: a good bubble of evil. But first, Avianda Avianda surveyed
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: the manor grounds, swarming with people preparing to depart. Basher's
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: men and women were well trained for wetlanders, and they
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: worked efficiently to stow their tents and prepare their gear. However,
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: compared to the Ayeel, the other wetlanders, those who weren't
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: actual soldiers, were a mess camp. Women skittered this way
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: and that, as if sure they would leave some task
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: undone or some item unpacked. The messenger boys ran with
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: their friends, trying to look busy so that they wouldn't
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: have to do anything. The civilian's tents and equipment were
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: only slowly being packed and stowed, and they would need horses, wagons,
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: and teams of drivers to get them all where they
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: needed to go. Aviander shook her head. The Ayeale brought
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: only what they could carry, and their war band included
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: only spears and wise ones, and when more than just
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: spears were required for an extended campaign. All workers and
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: craftspeople knew how to prepare themselves for departure with speed
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: and efficiency. There was honor in that honor which demanded
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: that each person be able to care for themselves and
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: their own not slowing the clan down. She shook her head,
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: turning back to her task. The only ones who truly
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: lacked honor on a day like this were those who
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: did not work. She dipped a finger into the pail
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: of water on the ground in front of her, then
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: raised her hand and let it hover over a second pail.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: A drop of water dripped tree. She moved her hand
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: and did it again. It's the worst punishment. It's so
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: like my brain explodes with born. I'm just reading it.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: I I'm like reaching for my phone to start flipping
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: through it. Just thinking about it. I'm like, oh, my
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: constant stimulation brain could not just could not for a second,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: especially if you're being punished and just like having anxiety
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: attacks over like what you did wrong and you can't
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: figure it out, and you're just going over the same
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: thing for and over.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: Actually, not like.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: What would the added like cultural norm on top of
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: that of your sitting around doing nothing when everybody else
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: is working publicly where everyone can see you not working.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: Like, just can you the amount of social pressure that
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: she is internally generating from her cultural conditioning, like the
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: wise ones have really twisted all the screws as titles.
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: They will go for this one.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: No, And you can see in her head she's going around.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: She goes, perhaps she was too dense to sort it out,
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: Perhaps she didn't deserve to be a wise one. And
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: then two paragraphs later, she'd accepted herself as their equal,
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: right like.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: She wanted to become one. She's surprised to find that
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: she's angry. She can't have it like mm hmmm, spoiling over.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: But she understands she is their equal. She just doesn't
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: understand why she's being punished right like, and she's yeah,
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: the pieces are all there, but she's not putting it together.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: And then the pattern is like fine, men, will you
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: go help me?
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: And Men's like, yes, pattern, I'll go help my fellow
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: future wife.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: And Min does the great thing, which is just be
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: like what you do and like, why aren't you doing
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: something else? That seems like everybody else is politely ignoring it?
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: And Min just like sticks her boot in her mouth
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: in a very I don't know appropriate way. It's like,
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: sometimes you need someone to be like, hey, can you
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: explain why the fuck you're doing this dumbass thing? And
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: then in the explaining of it, you realize that it
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: is a dumb ass thing to be doing, instead of
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: everybody walking around you and being like, oh, yeah, I
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: guess you've been fucking it up this whole time.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: Cool, right, Yeah, it's a it's an emperor has no
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: clothes kind of mm hmmmm hmm. Right. Min just wanders
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: in with no cultural sensitivity to what Avianda is going
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: through and just blows it wide open by being like,
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: but that doesn't make sense, and it's like, that's the
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: fucking point. It's my culture. It's not supposed to make sense, right, Like,
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: that's that's the water that she is swimming in that
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: Min is pointing out, and Min is coming over being like,
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: can I talk to anyone at all about my personal
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: experience and trauma and how hard it is to be
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: married to Rand, Like can I have his sympathetic ear
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: for once in my life instead of always having to
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: do emotional labor for everyone else? And Avianda, unfortunately is like,
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: no this is the catalyst for me having a big thing.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna be gone for an extended weekend doing ayahuasca
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: in the desert.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and she's felt his pain. She knows Min has
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: felt his pain. Like, can you not talk about the
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: pain that Rand is going through? No, Aviana still isn't
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: matured to that point that she can talk about emotional pain, right,
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: Like we need to get beyond that.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: Avienda come on, Well, maybe after she deals with all
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: the future visions and trauma and stuff. I feel like
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: she does come back a lot more grounded. I just
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: really wish that I really wish we could have seen
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Avianda the true wise one talking to Min. I don't
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: think we ever get to see them like actually talk
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: about what it's like being married to Rand, And that
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: would have really given us a lot of plot closure.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: The reunit. I feel like we could have done with
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: a much better everybody together in a room moment, sort
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: of a sitting around the dinner room table, like everybody
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: having a meal together, right, Like yeah, you know, I
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: really I love those scenes and I feel like we
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: could have done with that with this group, and like
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: it could have been really really good because we have
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: all these people who have gone through their struggles and
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: now are ready to fight the last battle because they
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: have become the people who they are going to be.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: And I think a big part of and I'm so
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: happy we have the end in these books, but a
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: big part of my disappointment in them is how bad
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: the few reunion scenes are that we do get right,
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: Like the interaction between Rand and gwayn dumb. The interaction
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: between Matt and Rand really dumb, Like there's a couple
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: of paren doesn't reunite with anybody. He just watches them
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: from their dreams, which is a little creepy. Or maybe
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: is that Parent and Matt where the badge he pulls
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: the badger out? I think it's Parent and Matt and
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: that Yeah, just so bad, so bad. So you know,
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: maybe I'm glad he didn't write more of those scenes
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: because they were just awful, awful, awful. Yeah, yeah, so,
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: but I would have loved to see more of it.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: So I don't know, I don't know, I don't know
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: what to tell you this. This food's terrible and this
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: portion sizes are too small?
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, definitely complaining about both at the same time.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: So yeah, men also sort of tries to ask Avianda
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: about like their relationship and is like, are we gonna
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: at some point start trying to stab each other with knives?
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: Because I'm kind of anxious all the time that that's
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: gonna happen. And Avianda's like, that's a silly thing to
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: worry about, because I have learned zero cultural sensitivity at all,
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: and what little I learned I regressed on because now
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Brandon Sanderson is writing me and I've never been to
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: the Wetlands in my life.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there is that. I do love the line that
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: when Min flourishes her knife and Omun is like, yeah,
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: that's really impressive. I could have killed her three times
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: while you're doing that.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And she's like that men and Tom Man her
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: knife twirls. It's like, okay, that I like, yeah, as
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: a cross cultural thing. But her whole like thing about
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: not understanding why men would think that they were going
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: to fight over rand, It's like, come on, you've been
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: around Wetlanders enough to understand the mechanics of why she
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: would think that, right, right, you could diffuse that more gracefully.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: And at this point, Men's the one Min hasn't really
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: been around. Iell I can excuse her cultural okays a
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: little bit more, but Avian is like, I mean maybe
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: Avian is like, stop making me do the work, right, Like,
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: maybe maybe she gets it and she's just being deliberately
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: obtuse so she doesn't have to. I don't know about Avienda.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I think she just like doesn't like men to
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: not like men.
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: I mean, it is a weird relationship because she felt
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: so much guilt about a Lane, right, because she promised
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: Elane she would look after Rand, and then she ended
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: up fucking Ran while she was supposed to be preventing
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: anybody else from fucking Rand for a Lane and this
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: whole it was this whole thing, right, that was just
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: absolutely and now this is, now that she's over that,
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: there's this other person who comes in who's also fucking Ran,
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: and she's.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: Like, wait, I was supposed to stop that too. Oh no,
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: Like I can see where she would have some resentment
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: against men, right, that does.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: Actually make sense. I've never thought about that, but yeah,
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: it's uh, the a Yale are so straightforward and so
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: circuitous when it comes to relationship stuff.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: At the same time, Sped uncle, I don't know how
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: you enjoyed the Badger scene. I thought it was terrible.
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: It was poorly, poorly written, different strokes, different folks, I suppose.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it was fan pandering in the worst way
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: possible and not actually how those characters would interact in
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: my opinion.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: So that means that some fans would appreciate it then.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: Because yeah, fuck, that's how that works, isn't it.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: That is how that works. Congratulations, you're an outlier because
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: you're autistic.
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: And then okay, so Avianda, sorry, ahead the same thing.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: Men's like, what do we do now? And Avian is like,
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: we just keep doing what we're doing. I don't see
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: why you should have to change anything. Change is hard
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: and bad.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: Okay yeah, yeah, and then Men, you know, makes Avianda
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: blow up, and Avianda walks off and repeatedly tries to
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: walk away from the situation and keeps finding herself pointed
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: at Rand. And it's almost like a dream sequence because
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: the pattern is just so freaking desperate for her to
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: get it. It's just like, no, every time you've turn,
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: you're going to turn back towards Rand until you see
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: the wise ones and then just stomp up to them
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: and get it over with, like just let it out
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: once she starts moving, Once she gets up and walks
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: away from min, she can't stop until the entire emotional
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: tide has been unleashed, and she does.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I love the Avianna's confrontation with the wise
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: ones is probably long overdo the just I will have
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: no more of your punishments. Tell me what you wish
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: of me, or send me away. You know, it takes
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: long enough, but they keep asking are you done? Have
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: you done the punishments? Are you learning? And so then
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: they go through and they sort of verify. They have
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: a couple of questions where they're like, are you rejecting
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: the punishments? You think your opinions as strong as ours? Oh,
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: you think you're our equal? And she goes, yeah, if
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: you have nothing else to teach me other than punishing
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: me for absolutely no reason, then clearly I am your
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: equal because these are really dumb punishments. And so they
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: go congratulations, and then you know you are the ten
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: thousand customer balloon goes off right and then oooh, like
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: you're now a wise one. That's all you had to say.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: And on the inside she's like, I'm not ready. I'm
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: not ready, You're not ready and like, because that's what
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: your inner voice is always going to tell you, right
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: until you learn to trust it. And sometimes the only
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: way to trust it is you get kicked out of
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: the nest.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, even if you're not ready, got to go for it.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: Sometimes sometimes you're never going to be ready, and you
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: literally do. It's not faking it until you make it.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: It's just accepting that nobody has any idea what they're doing.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: We're all just doing our best. It's not faking it.
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: It's just reality.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: And they kind of compare like, hey, and this is
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: we do it this way so that like everyone who
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: becomes wise one has you know, authority in of themselves.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: We don't have ranking, we don't have a structure. We're
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: not like the ice ad I where like our weakest
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: ones have to beg for attention our strongest ones. And
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: we saw that in the Icid eye, I mean just constantly.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: The way the power structure works is really dumb.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: The Yeel are so anarchists. They're like, we have structure
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: to the degree that we need structure based on people's actual, practical,
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: applied experience as needed. That's it.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: And it comes back to like chief among chiefs, right,
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: You don't have one king telling you what to do.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: You just have a bunch of chiefs who get together
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: and discuss things.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's much consensus based. I do agree Voujie
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: that it doesn't feel like any of the training before
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: implied that that was what they wanted. But that is
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: similar to the Eyes to Die, Right, The Eyes to
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: Dye have a whole other layer of education that comes
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: after they graduate to is tod eye. So like maybe
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: that's a conceit that both schools of thought have.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: What I'm thinking is that all the punishment before has
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: a reason behind it, right, And by doing it for
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: a while, you quickly realize, oh, either I'm being taught
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: to obey, or I'm being taught like you know, or
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: I made a mistake and I'm being punished for that.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: Like there's usually there's very rarely ever punishment without reason.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: And I think that's the clue that's different than anything
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: else they've done before.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: Right, They're relying on your critical thinking to be like,
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: there isn't a reason this time, and that is a
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: problem and I need to call it out. And then
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, that actually was the test was can
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: you call out bullshit, which, like you know, we all
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: need to learn to not just mindless accept whatever the
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: authority figure hands us. We need to have critical thinking
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: skills to say no, that is bullshit. I will not engage,
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: I will not support that, I will not give it oxygen,
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: whatever the case may be.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: No, I like it. I like it as a final
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: sort of test before before they send you off to
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: go through the actual test. Right, that's the sort of
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: how you know when you're ready to be tested.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: I love the line you stubbornly continued to obey. Yeah,
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: that really sums it up, both in terms of Avianda
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: as a person and also in terms of the ideal
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: approach to things, the wise ones, just.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: The life approach. Sometimes, man, people out there do stubbornly
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: love to continue to obey.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, they'll defend obeying and doing things that are bad
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: for them for so long. I like kidding myself. I
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: like kidding myself. No you don't, but I mean, yeah,
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: Avianda's like, holy shit, the last lesson was learning to
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: stand up for myself. But like she had not thought
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: of herself as someone who needed to learn to stand
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: up for herself. She was a warrior. Of course, she
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: can stand up for herself. But like standing up against
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: enemies with sharp pointing objects is different from standing up
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: to your colleagues that you have to continue working with.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: It's a different skill set.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: Because one feels right and one feels awful.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: Right right, Managing social pressure is very different than getting
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: through a survival situation.
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: And so she gets through all that and goes, huh,
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: I'll have to think. And again, this is Anderson who
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: writes everything out for us and lays it all out.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: She would have to thank Min, though men didn't realize
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: what she dot. Yes, we all read the earlier part
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: of the chapter, Brandon, you didn't have to say that,
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: thank you very much.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: I did like the idea that she's gonna have to
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: go to men in humility and say thank you. I
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: liked that, And if we had gotten that scene, I
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: would have been fine with it. We had twice the
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: words we needed to get that across as a foreshadowing hint,
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: because I would have loved Min to like see all
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: Vianda come to her like way more humble, way, more grounded,
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: way less antagonistic, and like go through that whole like
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: cross cultural, like I don't know what exactly I did
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: but somehow we're becoming closer and like, I don't feel
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: as scared of you.
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: I thought there was a moment later where she does say,
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: you know you, you prompted me to go do that,
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: like she actually has that. I think there is a
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: moment where she says that to men.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I hope so, because.
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: I'm almost almost certain that it exists.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't remember it, and I would like to
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: see it. That would be nice thing to rediscover if
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: it's out there. Clearly it was not impactful enough for
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: my taste, otherwise I would remember it.
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: No, No, it's I think it's very much a side comment.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: Like it's like while they're having a discussion about something else,
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: she's like, oh, and by the way, I should tell
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: you like you you helped inspire my She's like congratulations
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: from being wise one and she's like, oh, yeah, you
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: helped me realize that I needed to.
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: No, I would have preferred that to be a proper
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: heart to heart overwhind and with them kissing. It's been
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: way better for this dynamic.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: We already we already know the Elaine Avianda dynamic. We
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: don't need to add men into.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: Their Yes, we do.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: We don't have to.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: Why not?
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm fine with it. I'm just saying we
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: have to do it right. I'm not I'm not knocking
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: you down. I'm just saying.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying I want them to connect at another level.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: And why not have Avianda treat men like she treats
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: Elaine like a pillow princess.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: I honestly think men would be offended. She's like, I
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: may dress like a boy, but I don't I'm into
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: him anyway. I don't know. I'm just saying men. Men
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: Men to me always read as oh, I'll never mind.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: I'm I can say that everyone is panseexual. This is
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: my world.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: Not everybody wants to fuck everybody else. Most of us
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: just want to like half the population.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: I truly cannot comprehend that. That makes no sense to me.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: I know, I know, it's okay, a lot of things
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: don't make sense to me. Thank you, chat, you're all
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: validating me. All right. So now we're talking about Rudian.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: Now we're talking about how, oh my.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: God, I love kit writing a micro caramer very much so.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: But the switch between Mgeddi and Mogadine Rudian Rudd Dean
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: that the dean in everything was. I don't know where
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: it came from or where it went, but yeah, it changed.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: It changed over the course of the series. Mgeddi in Mogadine, right,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: like that's the one that everyone focuses on, but like
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: Rudian is one of them, right, Like there's there's just
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: a ton of others where they just went with one
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: accent and then I you know, I mean years passed
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: between the recording and they changed.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: How dare they? How dare? But yeah, they're sending her
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: off to that city and the waste, and they talk
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: about what's going to be different versus the same, right
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: because the city is open to people now, but the
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: columns and the rings are still being given a wide
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: berth and are still available for and useful in the
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: naturation rituals of the leaders of the ieal. But also
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: Avianda is going to be the first one as far
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: as they know, to go in since the city has changed,
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: which is interesting test subject. And they tell her to go,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: but not to use traveling to get close, but not
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: to go straight to the city, to actually spend a
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: few days being in the threefold land and traveling to
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: the city on foot.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: Well, to go to Cold Rocks Hold, which is her
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: the hold she's front, Like you can travel home, but
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: you have to go to Rudine Rudian from home.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: Or from somewhere that's close by, because they're like, you
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: have to go quickly, but also you need to reacclimate
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: to the waste.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: She's from Cold Rocks Hole. That's where she's they say,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: travel with cold Dorogs Hole and that's where she's from, right,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: Like they're not saying travel to the Golden Bowl or
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: travel to that whatever that peak is where you can
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: look out and see it, Like those are all places
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: you legitimately could have traveled to.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: I think they just picked the nearest good location. That
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: was a good runaway. I think if she hadn't been
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: born there, it wouldn't matter. It's just that's a good spot.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: But regardless, they're like, don't hop straight in, don't leave
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: rants camp and walk into the columns on the same day,
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: like take a few days to be in the waste
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: and walk there, like like our ancestors have for time immemorial,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: you know, mm hmm.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: And it's sort of like this is going to be
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: the last chance you have to have a moment to yourself.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: You're gonna be able to think and think about your life.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: But after this, there's gonna be the test and then the
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: last battle and things are going to be and then
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: you're gonna lose your feet and it's gonna be a
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: real problem for you. So, like, there's there's a lot
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: going on in your life coming up.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: So this is the last good run she'll ever have.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: Really, is the last good walk she goes on because
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: because yeah, kaboom, no more feet.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but she gets a forsaken made servant out of.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: It, that's true. That's that's terrifying. Yeah, this is Avian
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: the only one, well not the only one, but one
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: of the few people who keeps uh a forsaken as
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: a servant after the last battle.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh yeah, the legit, it's a whole
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: action sequence in the middle of the last battle, kind
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: of near the end.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Essentially, there's an explosion and she jumps and it
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: cripples her and she does a lot of doesn't she
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: fight grend All, like crawling around with like her or
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: like her legs below herkneaes are essentially fucked.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: She Yeah, she leaps at grand All and fucks her
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: up as the explosion happens and shreds her feet. But
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: the way that the weaves fall apart, I forget the specifics,
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: but the way that grand All fucks up her weave
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: because she's being attacked by Auvianda even as alviand is
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: feet or being disintegrated, turns into her becoming Avianda's permanent slave.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: That's right, Like the compulsion we flips back on her.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: It bounces. Yeah, it bounces the convulsion we've back onto her.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: And yeah, so when when Avianda comes to, her feet
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: are fucked, but she has grand All in Hessalam form,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: just kind of like.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: Wearing aund She wants you, So.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: We'll get there. When we get there, it's in two books. Guys,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: calm down.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know if she loses her whole feet, but
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: even after being healed, she doesn't walk normally, so she
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: has to lose some parts of her feet or else
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: the healing would have just gotten her back to normal.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure she's like worn away to the ankle.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: But again, we'll get there in like two years.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: Read and find out. Hold your horses.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: She will have a lot less to afterwards. Terrorable. Yeah,
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: and Amy's is the one specifically sending Avianda off because
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: she's a fellow former maiden and she was kind of
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: like a second mother to Avianda's specifically, and just like,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: all right, now you make sure not to die in there,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: I go off and do the dangerous thing, and.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: We explicitly say that, you know, the reason Savannah was
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: a wise one is because she declared herself a wise
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: one and we didn't really have a way to stop that.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: And again rather than implying it right, because you could
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: have figured that out from the I feel like the
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: mechanism or just say like, oh, and that explained Savannah.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: But like, yeah, Avianna didn't need to ask that question
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: out loud. She could have thought about it inside and
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: had to be an internal thought that closed us in.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah right here, strapper a few times instead her digging
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: holes aspect amise, I don't know that ever happening the
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: closest with Savannah. Cut that right there, the closest with Savannah.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: That's enough of an explanation. The next paragraph, Avia had
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: won a Vianda had wondered why the wise ones accepted
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: the shidow woman without complaint. Her declaration had been enough,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: and so Amice and the others had been forced to
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: accept her all enough, didn't need any of that, didn't
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: need any of that. That should have been enough from
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: saying the closest was Savannah, because that was all the
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: rest of it is previous sentences. What do you do
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: if an apprentice disclares yourself ready, Like, I don't know
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: if anyone doing that, but the closest with Savannah is like, ah, okay, sorry,
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: I know I'm talking myself in circles, but this paragraph
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: talks in circles.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: It's a problem.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't say it's a problem so much as a
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: stylistic choice. And it's hard for us to talk about.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: No, our opinions are objectively correct. We can dictate what
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: other people can and can't like because of what we
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: do and don't like. I literally had this conversation with
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: someone well back where they were like, what music do
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: you think is is?
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: What?
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: What do you think is music? Like feeling very philosophically
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: what is music?
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: What is music? And I'm like thinking about it, getting
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: all like way off in my head, and then they
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: were like, you know, like I don't think that rap
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: is music. I just was like, okay, not not the
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: philosophical rabbit hole I was going down.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: Let me just stop you right the fuck there and
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 4: be like, no, the fact that you don't like it
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 4: is not the same thing as it is or isn't music.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: Were not the arbiter of what makes music. I thought
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: we were going into, like is ocean noise music is
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: silenced music?
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: But no, like genres, you don't.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: Like when when someone asks you what is gender and
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: you're like, well, it's a combination of like you know
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: what your genes might have been, but it's the result
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: of a protein process that causes a phenotype. And someone's like, well,
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: I don't think transgender people and you're like, oh, oh sorry, no,
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: different level, different level, right.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, this person I was talking to was able to
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: sit and listen to me rant at a very loud
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: volume that Brandon could hear at more than the usual
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: level of clarity through the wall between our offices. He's like,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: who were you ranting at? But it was it was wild.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: It was a wild thing. And then they were trying
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: to backtrack and say, well, no, I just meant It's like, no,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: you need to be more careful with your if you
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: just meant something else, like no, and the question of
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: what is music is very very interesting. But anytime that
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: humans have used a whole bunch of noise for creative expression,
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: it is music. Like if you're making noise for creative expression,
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: it's music. So you can't be tossed and whole ass
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: genres of established music under the bus because you don't
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: like it.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: What if it's flashing lights, is that music? You're creating waves,
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: they're just electromagnetic waves instead of sound waves.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: I think you need to have an auditory component, which
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: then gets really weird when you consider people who have
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: hearing issues and also what about synesthesia.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, and people who you know you can feel
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: the vibrations with your body even if you can't hear them.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I know someone who is a bass guitarist specifically,
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: and they have and writes their own music, and they
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: have been told repeatedly by deaf people who got to
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: watch a sign language interpretation and hear them. It shows
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: like I can hear the bass, I can see your vibes,
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: I can see the lyrics. I enjoy your music. Your
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: music is an experience that I am enjoying. So like,
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: what is music? Is it auditory? Is it vibration, is
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: it any experience?
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, And what's the difference between noise and music? Right?
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: Like that? That to me is where the question comes
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: into play, right.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: Right, right, Like the ocean is not intentional, but it
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: can fill the same spot. I mean, so people like
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: to listen to ocean noise, right, it's not music because
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: no one meant for it to happen, but it is
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: still pushing happy auditory buttons in your head.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: So, and the waves have enough of rhythm that it
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: kind of approximates a very slow song, right.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: Right, But I think that music has to have intentionality
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: behind it. The ocean could never right as a lilogenis
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: saying organized noise, right like, ah.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: But then where do you argue? Then you talk about jazz,
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: which is intentionally unorganized?
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: Well, I would say that having the skill to make
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: music is the organization. Like rain can't be organized, right,
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: but water sculpture can be complicated, complicated anyway, Tangents upon tangents,
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: Avianda is head enough to ridy and her honor is returned.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: She is very happy. She's going to get to come
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: back and have rand as an equal and.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: Pov switch Sure, yeah, just again, Sanderson foreshadowing where she
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: ends her POV with her Honor had returned and I
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: just you know, honor is dead except in the Hearts
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: of Avienda, she'll see what she can do. Gotta reference
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: the Brandon Sanderson stuff. Gotta reference it because it's so
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: interesting to see the lines from his later books pop
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: up here. And it's like, I'm sure it's not intentional,
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: but I guarantee there's part of his brain that kind
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: of remember similar phrases and uses them in similar ways, right,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: And so, yeah, her Honor had Returned feels very much
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: like the way Brandon Sanderson would end one of his
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: povs in one of his books. To me.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean when I have picked up his books,
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: it definitely felt like I've read this before, and I
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: don't care and I've read this before. Part I think is, yeah,
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: the fact that he's got a style, and it's impossible
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: to be original from yourself. Wherever you go, there you
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: are right.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: Not unless I've got drugs. Sometimes I'm not there.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: Then I don't think Sanderson does any tricks.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: Oh that might be the problem. Yes, it helps him right,
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: very consistently, but you know, sometimes you got to get
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: out of your own head.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: Do you want to finish this chapter?
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: Wait? Is there not just a bu a bubble of
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: a bub Okay, yeah, so this. I've heard the story
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: of the person who suggested this and how it was
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: included in the books at the various cons I would
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: like to tell that story, but I don't feel like
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: I can remember it with enough fidelity to retell the
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: story on the podcast. But there's an interesting story behind
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: this particular scene. And if you ever get to speak
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: with like Maria Simmons or ask a question about Brandon,
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: this is always a fun question to ask or and
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: I'm sure someone can probably tell me. Maybe maybe I
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: can get the story and I can tell it on
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: the next podcast. But I think it has to do
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: with bugs in the South, and that's all I'm gonna say.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: I live just south of the forty fifth parallel, halfway
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: between the equator and the North Pole, and for reasons
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: involving bugs, I will never be moving farther south. Ever.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: I hear so many horror stories from far southern places
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: about various insects and near insects being large and in charge,
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: and I just cannot, I just cannot. I like living
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: in my temperate rainforest which has very few.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: Would you like to hear any of my bug stories
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: from living in the South for most of my.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: Childhood, I've heard a few, and they live rent free
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: in my head.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: There's the half cockroach in the can of coke I
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: left out overnight. Pretty sure I ate the other half.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: There is the junebug carpet on the surface of the
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: pool because I used to swim at an outdoor pool.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: That's the one that lives rent free in my head.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: Is the carpet of junebugs on the pool.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, literally could not see through them. Gosh, the fact
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: that my my mother always jokes she'd pobby trained me
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: by telling me to pee on the cockroach because it
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: was always a dead cockroach floating in the bowl. Because
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: we lived in Mississippi at the time and there was
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: the cockroaches everywhere. Let's see what I gotta have some
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: other good ones.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: I'm not moving places with large cockroaches, It's not happening.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: The red ant ones are fun. We used to hang
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: plastic eggs on a tree out front of our house
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: and there was a red ant mound on the ground
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: and as I was hanging the trees, of course, you're
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: looking up at the tree. And had put my foot
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: in a red ant mound, and they swarmed up my
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: leg and stung me from probably hip to knee, hip
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: to ankle. I mean as a child. So my parents like,
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: I was screaming, right, and so my parents picked me up.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: And similar thing happened at a pool. It was sort
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: of like an outdoor pool and the bathroom was full.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: So I went around behind the concrete structure to pee
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: on the wall and was peeing and standing in a
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: in a red ant nest. So I've had that happen twice,
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: both times miserable. Let's see what no, I mean bugs.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: But here's the here's the great thing, though, we are
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: slowly destroying all the habitat and wiping bugs off the
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: face of the planet. You know, when I used to
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: drive around, I used to get bugged meat all over
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: my windows that I used to have to take off
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: right constantly. Just have to stop and clean your windows
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: because it would get so smeary. If you remember men
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: in black kind of starts with a bug. It's the
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: window and the guy like, what does his windshield wipers?
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: And it sucks right because his bugs. It doesn't happen anymore.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: We've almost destroyed. The bug population has cratered in this country,
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: which is a shame because they're food for everything else.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. I don't think there's very few bugs
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: that I would actually wipe off the face of the earth.
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: You know, I just want them to leave me alone.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: I know that's only three.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: Foot bubble where I don't have anyone fucking crawling on me.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: You should look up the history of raid, because cockroaches
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: apparently used to be common and almost all households before
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: those little bug traps the roach motels in the eighties
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: were invented, or I think it's the eighties, maybe the
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: early nineties, but essentially, cockroaches were common in almost all
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: houses in the US, and then they invented these things,
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: and roaches have become for the most part of think
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: of the past in most houses.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: Huh. I'm okay with.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: That extremely effective chemical warfare against bugs.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like rodents and insects are two creatures
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: that have explicitly made themselves successful living off of us
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: as parasites, and it is sort of like all out
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: war when it comes to our immediate spaces. Is kind
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: of the name of the game, Like we don't want
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: to make them go extinct. We don't want to have
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: our shit propagate way out into the environment. But like
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: in my house, we are going to need to have
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: some boundaries. No cockroache not happening.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: And I do think I think mosquitos, if we could
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: wipe out mosquitoes, I think the world will be a
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: better place.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: Mosquitoes. Mosquitoes are one of the deadliest animals too, humans.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, in the world, in the world, yes, yeah.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: Like I think on behalf of all humans who have
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: died from mosquito borne illnesses, Like we should seriously consider
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: how many other species need them, and like do the
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: math on that, because could we get rid of those fuckers.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: My understanding is fifty percent of all humans in the
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: history of humans have died from malaria, which is from mosquitoes.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: That sounds right, that sounds like a fact I learned
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: from Hank Green that, like.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: It's literally half of all humans have died from malaria.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: Like that's it's just an incredible, incredible killer historically, Yeah,
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: it's not as bad and it's still killing.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: It kills at amount of people every year. They kill
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: more than like everything. I mean, I have maybe like
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: water borne illness, but like it's truly. Yeah. I even
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: know an old hippyka who made up a whole song
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: about how all life is sacred except for mosquitoes. Just like, yeah, yeah,
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: I think maybe possibly humanity has had it with those fuckers.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: Burn the fucking tent down that.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: When yeah, when Ramanda's like I could never deal with
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: any of my possessions again because of all the bugs
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: that were in them, Like, I get it. I hate
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 2: this bubble of evil. It is excellent writing because it
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: makes my skin crawl.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: This is this is a really really good one. The
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: bugs coming out through the bottom of the tent, the
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: horror of the bump forming under the thing, and then
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: one bump and then multiple bumps, Like the visuals are
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: so good. This is This is Sanderson writing at its peak.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: It's it's amazing how much he can go from just
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: like terrible writing to just really good imagery. And like, uh,
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: there's there's a reason I read his books right, like,
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: and it seems like this that are visceral and make
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: me sit up at night terrified bugs really really good.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're not just hating on Brandon Sanderson in general.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: We're hating on very specific things we don't like, because yeah,
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: he has real writing talent.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: Also, there's a little bit like we hear about the watergate,
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: which is the gate that Gowain was looking for a
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: way to get in, his crack to get in that
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: he was just talking about in the previous chapter. Right
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: they mentioned the watergate here.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, right, like yes, a crack in the stone, yes, and.
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: That is then later how they get in to get
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: Agwayne out, which kind of ruins her plans.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, but this is important information for Swan, right,
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: Swan's like, how could I not have known about that?
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 2: I was the amorland. So you know it factors into
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: Gwin and Swan both making bad decisions together, and also
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: you know, it gives them a chance to realize that
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: Agwaine is very much not exaggerating about how bad things
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: are in the tower. Like Shamaran has been demoted, she
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: has been you know, gas lit into believing she's not
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 2: a nice to die when she is. And that whole like,
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: oh Alida really is assuming authority she shouldn't have. As
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: the wise ones, I mean sitters need to go in
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: and like assert our collective authority and tell her that
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: she needs to sit down and take a number.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: And I think one of the reasons why we put
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: these three chapters together is like this chamarin thing kind
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: of bookends the episode, right, It's sort of how we
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: began it and it's how we're ending it.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: It really does.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I don't feel a need to talk about
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: it in detail because we did at the beginning of
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: the episode.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: But then the bump jerked, suddenly pushing upward the canvas
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: floor split and a thick bodied cockroach is why it.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: As a fig scrambled through, Romanda pulled back in revulsion.
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: The roach skittered across the canvas antenna twitching. Suan took
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: off her shoe to swat at it. Really, Swan taking
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: off her shoe not a.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: Good idea, they know, Just step on it if you're going.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: To be gross. The bottom of the tent bubbled up
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: near the rip, and a second cockroach climbed through, then
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: a third, then a wave of them, pouring through the
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: split like two hot tea sprayed from a mouth. A
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: black and brown carpet of scrambling, scratching, scurrying creatures pouring
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: over one another in their hurry to get out. The
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: women screeched in revulsion, used revulsion twice there, throwing black
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: stools and chairs as they stood. Orders were in the room.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: A moment later, Broad shouldered Roarwick bonded to Magla and
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: that copper's skin stone of a man was blah blah
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Yeah.
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: I love the image of the warders rushing in with
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: swords and then being like, the swords are.
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: Right, They're really not. Yeah, I mean I feel like
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: you could like use the flat of the blade to
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: crush a bunch of them at once, maybe if you
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: were just like using it like a kind of a
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: big fly swater.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that seems really bad for the sword though. That's
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: probably get a broken sword. I mean, it's not from
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: the power rot ones obviously.
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: Right, obviously those those would be like great crowbars, you know.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: Just uh, I will have to I talked about this
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: comic everyone's a while, but Sluggy Freelance really old comic,
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: but there's a magic sword in there that is like indestructible,
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: And of course the main character is Goofy. You know,
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: to power it up you have to kill someone innocent, right,
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: So most of the time it's not that powerful because
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: you don't actually want to kill someone innocent to power
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: it up. It's usually an accident, so he just uses
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: it as an indestructible crowbar, like all the time. It's
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: like just a running joke in the series that he's
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: like the great a crow bar and then he like
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: he finally bends it once and he's like, oh no.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: That's funny. Something about this bubble of evil that I
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: thought was interesting was that these are specifically roaches from Shara.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I do feel like Sanderson is doing his
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: best to foreshadow the Sharans showing up in the Last
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: Battle without showing us the Sharans showing up in the
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: Last Battle. Say that five times fast.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: Specifically the way they burn into the Eyes to Die
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: camp and like fuck up Romanda and Lelane directly like
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: it's a very like, hey, so I'm gonna be doing
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: this with something way worse than roaches later.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it feels like very much foreshadowing that moment
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: when the gateway opens and the Sharin's comebusting, pouring out, exploding.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: How did they say, like tea sprayed from a like
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: hot tea sprayed from a mouth, and it specifically fucks
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: up the Romaine situation in some cases. In this case,
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: it's just Lelaye having her entire life go up and smoke.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: But you know later it's her whole life going up
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: and smoke.
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: Literally her her going up and smoke. And then we
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: have a really interesting question to close out the chapter.
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: The tower needed to be whole, whatever it took. Would
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: she be willing to bow before Elida to make it happen?
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: Would she put on an accepted dress again if it
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: would bring unity for the battle. She couldn't decide, and
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: that disturbed her nearly as much as those scuttling roaches had.
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: What do you think of that question?
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: No, because they haven't done it so far. Someone has to,
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: you know, at no point does anyone ever give in.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm asking is like, should they be giving
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 2: into Alida by any means necessary and accepting whatever punishment
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: in order to bring unity?
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: No, No, of course not, because because then you've created
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: a tower that's so ineffective it might as well not
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: be there and will probably work for the opponents. Right
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: like this, you have to be strong internally before you can,
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: you know, give yourself the oxygen mask first before you
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: give it to the child, right, like that level of
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: if you were not you know, take care of yourself
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: emotionally before you get into a relationship. The relationship is
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: not how you should be fixing yourself. Right. All of
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: these things are true, and I think, you know, especially
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: get your internal shit in order before you try and
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: go out and fix the world. I think there's a
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: lot of nonprofits that could learn that lesson.
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 2: And again to return to the theme of these chapters,
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: like who has the authority that should be respected? And
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: who is assuming authority that needs to be disrespected? Like
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: this is the question? And like you know, again to
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 2: return to parallels to the Alida is Trump situation right,
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 2: Like should we all just capitulate and do whatever they
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: want because they're in power now? Or should we stay
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: in opposition because humanity and morality and the constitution they
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: are still supposed to mean something, right, Like do you
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: go along with the despot or do you maintain that
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: being the opposition is correct? Do you maintain that a
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: Gwain is the correct Dominlin? Because this is what it is, right,
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 2: as a contest of wills for who everyone is going
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 2: to look to for Amerlin? Does it make sense to capitulate, Well,
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: who you capitulate? M right? Like, I mean, which one
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 2: of these women are you giving your allegiance to. This
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: is what Goblin is struggling with. This is what Romaine
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: is struggling Well, not really, but like, this is what
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 2: she's thinking about in this moment, is like, which one
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 2: are we supposed to be doing this war for? Who
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: deserves it? Whose authority? Who has assumed authority in a
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: way that is healthy and productive for our society? Important
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: question to be able to answer honestly and in a
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 2: way that you can stand behind and not just waffle
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: on sheryam.
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: Fortunately, Tuon is just going to solve that problem by
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: snatch and a lighter right out of there.
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 2: You know, I like kind of don't like it because
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: it's an easy out for the eyes to die.
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: It's such an easy out. Yeah, they are given so
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: many questions and so many moral dilemmas, and they're just
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: having one of the options snatched away from them and
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 1: being told it's not an option anymore. So now you
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: just have to go with the other one. And everyone's like, oh, okay,
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: then I guess I don't have to make the decision.
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, unsatisfying so.
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not the greatest way to go about it. Yeah, No,
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: I would would have rather seen not come upens but
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: like the realization that they've really messed up, right, that
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: like a moment when Alida was surrounded by the hall
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: and they turn their back on.
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 2: Her, right, and then she goes to them and they
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: refuse to acknowledge her, and the only people who will
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: acknowledge her are like the gate guards who let her
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: out and don't let her back in, and that's it,
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: right and right or whatever. Yeah, to actually have Agwain
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: in her duke it out in front of the people
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: whose authority they need to be or whose respect they
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: need to be getting, and then have a light of lose,
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: just straight up lose.
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: You know what. I'd love to see Alida lose, get
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: exiled on her way out traders try and use the
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: one power on a Gwain to like harm her and
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: have the defense of Agwain bounce back on her and
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: like still her accidentally and her be like stilled by
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: her own actions and then still excellent. Yeah, that would
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: have been really satisfying.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: Something like that would have been good because then she
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: would have been punished by her own actions in a
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: way that didn't feel weird right right, because like Sean
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: Chan is just such a weird thing to be, Like, yay,
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 2: she got her come up and spy being put into
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: slavery you, but like having her own misguided attempts to
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: regain power bounce back on her and end her is
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 2: like okay, instant karma. Instant karma is okay, I could
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: live with instant karma.
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: And that's how we feel about Grendel, right, is like, oh,
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: you tried to put someone on their compulsion and bounce
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: back and fried your brain. Well that's that's some instant
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: karma right there, right.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, play stupid games whin stupid prices.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: Right right, So just do something that like that with Alida,
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: because like we see, you know, she can't control her emotions,
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: and you know what, I would have loved to see
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: her just pull too much power and still herself. Like
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: she gets so angry, she's losing. She's like, I'm gonna
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: fuck you up, I'm gonna do this to you, I'm
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: gonna do that to you, Andverone's like, calm down, calm down, No,
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna pull it. She pulls in all this power
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: and just just you know, basically stills herself on the spot.
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 2: Right in an attempt to be like, if I can't
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 2: have the throne, then you can't either exact kind of thing.
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: And then it doesn't work because again just like throws
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 2: up a shield and it's like.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 1: So much more powerful. She's just is like yeah, yo, chill, yeah,
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: so yeah yeah, Alia trying to match maybe like grab
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: a teary on Greall and trying to match a GWayne. God.
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: I would love to just rewrite these books, love to
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: rewrite these books if I was a talented writer. Right
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: when we've already talked about how we rewrite Matt and
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: Matt would have a tragic end, now we're sort of
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: talking about Alida. Like every character, I feel like we
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 1: could create a different storyline and then weave them back
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: together again.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: We were never this disrespectful of Robert Jordan.
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: Never, never, oh no, because I never never could see
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: the outline behind the writing. With Robert Jordan. It just
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: felt like the characters were doing what in the world existed,
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: and the characters were living in it. You know, for
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: me what I can see with Sanderson, And maybe it's
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: just I've been reading too long and rereading these things
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: too much and it's picking them apart too much. But
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: with Sanderson, I really feel like I can see the
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: bullet point for every behind every scene, and that makes
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: it almost, I don't want to say boring, but like,
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: once you've picked out that bullet point, you don't really
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: need to go that much deeper.
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very different experience. I didn't realize how
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: different it was going to.
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: Be me neither.
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because Yeah, the one hand, I'm like, well, we're
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: just weirdos who have hyper fixated on something so long
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 2: that we don't know how to be normal about anything.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: But like, no, we've switched to authors and the entire
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 2: feel of what we're doing has.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: Changed, like completely, agreed, agreed, It's.
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: Very It's been a very surprising turn of events.
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 1: I feel like I had a little more idea of
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: how big of a difference it was gonna be because
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: I've because of mis born spoilers, right, like, yeah, because
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: I've done those that podcast I kind of knew what
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: podcasting Brandon Sanderson's content was gonna be. When I wasn't
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 1: sure is how much of Jordan's writing is in there,
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: how much of the plot we're going to be able
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: to like sort of because I feel like we have
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: those moments where we're like, oh, yeah, this is actually
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: feels Wheel of timey, and we can talk about it.
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: Like there's a couple of chapters we've done where I'm like, oh,
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: that felt normal to me, that felt like old school
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: Wheel of Time. But those have been a minority of
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: the episodes. Yeah, so it feels more like Misborn spoilers
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 1: than it feels like Wheel of Time spoilers.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I only ever read Missporn because I wanted
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 2: to listen to you guys do the podcast, and I
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: don't remember if I even listened to it. Like the
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: whole thing is just so unmemorable. It's like, I don't know,
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 2: I know weird.
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 1: I remember I remember doing it, and I remember we
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: did instead of the last two books. We did Secret
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: History because Secret History is kind of there was so
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: little to talk about in those books that we wanted
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 1: to talk about. We felt like Secret History as a
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: background observer because that's what those book gets. That book
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: is it's kelseyre as a dead guy watching over what
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: happens in the other two books, and we were like, oh,
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: we can just do this short story and everything we
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: want to talk about with these two books instead of
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: going into and doing another sixty episodes thirty episodes per book,
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: you know, on these two more books. And so yeah, no,
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: I mean it's it's uh, it's different. It's different. It's
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: just because there's not I don't know how Jordan wove
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: his threads so tight, his storylines were so detailed. They're
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: they're they're fractal in a way. The deeper I look,
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: the more I find yeah, you know. And so from
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: a distance, Brandon Sanderson looks very similar, but the detail
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: isn't there. It doesn't have that sort of same level
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: of you know, the more it's still a blanket, but
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: it's just a blanket of one color. Which sorry, I know.
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: That's like everyone's like, hey, we're here to talk. Hear
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: you guys talk about these books, and we're I think
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: we're just adjusting a little bit. And and I want
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: to get through this book too, because I feel like
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: there's going to be the sander Lanche. I feel like
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 1: we're going there's a but like we're doing Hinderstap next week,
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 1: which is super cool, and then and then we've got
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: the Battle at the White Tower. We have veins of gold, Like,
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: there's so much coming up that's so cool, and are
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: some of my favorite moments from the series that I
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: can't believe. I don't want to talk about them more right,
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: because they're really cool action scenes and really cool philosophy
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: and there's a lot of interesting stuff happening there. But
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: I'm yeah, you're right, the feel of these episodes has
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: been different, and I haven't quite figured out why.
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, halfway through this book, so we're a sixth
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: of the way through this last stretch, and uh, we're
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: going to do it. We're going to do it however
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 2: weird it guess We're still doing it, and.
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 1: I can't wait. I'm actually really curious about new Spring too.
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: I still think that would be a fun just like
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: live stream for twelve hours and see how if it's
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: really really bad, we can throw it away and do
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: it fresh.
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I think we should find an excuse to
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 2: do a stupid long stream do new Spring for that.
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 2: We've been promising that since before I was part of We, So.
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, I just it's not that I've been promising it.
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: I just think it would be a cool way.
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 2: To do it, right, Yeah, I think it'd be really
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 2: fun just binge podcast if you kind of like binge
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 2: listening but making binge making.
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, binge making. I mean I got so into that idea.
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: I sat down and did my notes for the whole
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: book at one point, like I was ready to do that.
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: That was like just looking for a time to do it,
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: and then COVID looking, Yeah, still looking, still looking.
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 2: I have not been following any I know that like
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: half the YouTube channels and podcasts have gotten to do
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 2: an interview with the cast or with Ray for the
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 2: costume person or whoever it's. I'm staying away from all
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 2: the hype. I don't want it. I'm happy to just
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: experience the hype and fit fourth hand. Just be like
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 2: the warm glow in the distance is very nice. But
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: I will be waiting until the thirteenth, like I was
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: told to I have I just I was told the
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 2: thirteenth is when the things are gonna happen. I do
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 2: not want to be inundated with shit to engage with
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 2: before then. I was I'm autistic expectations, right, you told
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 2: me the thirteenth. Quit handing me shit I didn't ask
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 2: for before the thirteentha.
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 1: No, I'm people people are writing reviews like nae, let's
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: put out a review where he's like, well, I've seen
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: all season three and let me tell you what I think.
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, come on, like, I want my own
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: I don't want to know. I don't want to know
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: what your opinion is. Let me let me have my
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 1: own opinion. Not that I I don't think Nibolass has
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: great opinions, and that like I don't trust him to
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: have opinions, but like, uh, I meant even watched to
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 1: Love a minute opener have no yeah me either.
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 2: No, I don't want to. I don't want to. I
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 2: feel like the whole thing is just pushing a weird
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 2: hype cycle that I find very toxic and gross and culty,
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 2: and I just like, no, and yeah, I don't want
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 2: other people's opinions. It's great that you have a spoiler
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 2: free review, but your opinions are in themselves gonna spoil
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 2: my experience. I don't like I literally, I literally just
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 2: this last year finally watched all of Game of Thrones,
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 2: all the way through. I'd never finished it, and I
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: have heard so much bitching and moaning about the last
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 2: two seasons from you specifically, but from a lot of it,
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 2: it wasn't that bad. After all of the negative hype.
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 2: I had years of being told they're absolutely awful, the
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 2: worst thing that's ever been committed to television, like just
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 2: hyperbole and hyperbole by word for horrible TV. And I
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 2: watched them, I'm like, I mean, they're mid, which is like,
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 2: really disappointing for a show that was genre defining the
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: last two seasons. Shouldn't be mid. That is grossly disappointing,
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 2: But like this is this is fine. I was told
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 2: that it would be like cardboard cutouts with poop stains
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 2: on them, and like it's fine, It's a Game of
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 2: Thrones whatever. It was such a weird experience.
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think when the hype gets you so excited
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 1: and then you get something mid, the difference is huge.
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: When you're expecting mid and you get lower tier mid.
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 1: They're expecting mid mid, and you get you know that,
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: You're like, fine, that's what I was expecting. But I
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: think because they'd set such high expectations on quality, and
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 1: because the series is unfinished and this was the ending,
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 1: because this is the problem, people wanted an ending to
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 1: the books. We still want an ending to the books, right,
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 1: like we still want did to write the fucking ending
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: of the books, and so this was going to be
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 1: the greatest ending to the greatest series that had ever
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: been written, right, And this was we were going to
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 1: get this ending before the books came out, which was
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: such a weird thing to happen, right, whenever has a
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: series Stevie Show started before the books were finished written
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: and been on air long enough to actually get beyond,
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: Like most shows can't make it past book one right
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 1: of whatever series is written. It's much easier to get
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: books published than it is to get shows made. So
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: this weird inversion where the books haven't been written and
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: the show went beyond. It was this first time thing
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: and we were expecting and everything leading up to that
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 1: had been so good, had been so good that what
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 1: you're doing is expecting the ending to the books and
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: you want it to be the same quality so you
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: can enjoy the ending of the books. And it ruined
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 1: the books for a lot of people because that's the
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 1: ending they get.
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 2: And that makes sense, and that totally makes sense. You
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: can tell that that's why the last two seasons are
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: mid is because they really thought they could do better.
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 2: Than the original author, like get out of here, shut up.
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 1: No, they just didn't have anything from the original author.
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 2: Go make him right then, don't make up your own ending.
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 2: That was dumb. Go just sit outside of his door
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 2: in a tent and just refuse to leave until he
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 2: finishes the damn book. Like I just I think they
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 2: had better things to spend their money on than fucking
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 2: it up. But like whatever, Right. It was the same
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 2: thing with Winter Dragon. When Winter Dragon came out, I
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 2: didn't see it initially and I only heard about it once.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 2: Everyone was in a complete rage spiral about it, and
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 2: when I watched it, I was like, well, this is
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 2: like not as bad as I thought it would be,
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 2: even though it is awful.
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: It was awful.
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 2: Well, it's just amazing what expectations can do to color
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 2: your opinions.
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: It's clearly five minutes of footage expanded out to fill
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: thirty minutes, right the the YouTube channel names Dusty Wheel
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: Dusty Wheels. They did a recut of it, and if
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: you like, we voiceover and it's really right, it's like
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 1: seven minutes or something like that, and it's a really
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 1: good Yeah.
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 2: No, it's really good. The Dusty cut of that is
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 2: really dope. It's actually good. It's actually good.
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: So you know, the footage was there, it's just a
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: business decision to expand that out to thirty minutes and
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 1: then make nothing else beyond that. So yeah, So many
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: of the complaints I have around how Weel Time has
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: been held on TV show has to do with the
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: business around TV shows these days, and very little to
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: do with how the show is being made. Mostly to
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: do with like the runtime, the hours, the cuts, the
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: notes from the studio.
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I've been rewatching the show because that is
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 2: how one approaches a new release of a Wheel of
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 2: Time content. You re reconsume the content that came before that.
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 2: That is the way. So I've been rewatching the show,
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: and fuck, I hate the editing. The editing is the
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 2: bad guy. The editing is amateurish, it is raw. It
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: is bad. It needs to be redone there are you
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 2: can tell that they're using different shoots of the same thing,
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 2: and they're not cutting it at the same moment. People's
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 2: arms aren't in the same position, pieces of jewelry are
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 2: on and off, heads are in different positions. It is infuriating,
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 2: and they cut out huge parts of plot that you
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 2: know they filmed because the actors are acting like there's
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 2: other content that's there, and like you can just you
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 2: can just see scalpel marks on the edge of every
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 2: fucking cut and it makes me so enraged because there
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 2: is good fucking content there. They filmed enough content to
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 2: make a good show. And the editing is why ninety
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 2: percent of my complaints are purely could be fixed with editing.
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 2: Have nothing to do with the original costumes, casting, writing,
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 2: set design, music choice. None of that raw stuff was
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 2: the problem. It is the way that it was fucking edited.
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 2: And half of that has to be business, and I
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: feel like a lot of it is that they must
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 2: have gotten some really inexperienced people, because it feels really
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 2: fucking I'm maturish.
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: No, there's so many people out there who would be better.
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, give Lauren Love. They're off footage. Oh my god,
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 1: him for a couple.
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 2: Of years, right, they had him do an official summer Yeah.
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I watched that, or I
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: watched his director's cut on it. Yeah, but yeah, well
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: let him let him recut it, give him, give him
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 1: the footage and let him recut it. That's like that,
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 1: that would be amazing, someone who's a true fan, who's
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 1: got the true talent. Don't give it to me, don't
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: give it to a radio, wouldn't We don't have no
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 1: Let us be.
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 2: Part of the screeners that help him get out of
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 2: his own head and refine it as part of that.
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, we can be part
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: of the feedback process for sure.
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, but like, yeah, give.
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 1: It to Lauren give.
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 2: And don't give him a time limit or you give
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 2: it like a ninety minute time limit or something.
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 1: Right right, right, or yeah, in terms of how much
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 1: content he can put into it.
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we should just have Lauren do all
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 2: of it. I'm sure he can handle that. He doesn't
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 2: have like a real life or anything, honestly, Like.
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 1: That should be his real life should be paid enough
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 1: to like just do that, like should be. But you know,
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: he's a content creator, so he's barely making it. Like
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 1: the roost of.
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 2: The content creation is not not lucrative. It is lucrative
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 2: for people who have a way better idea of what
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 2: they're doing and actually have more behind the scenes.
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 1: It's like playing the lotto. It's lucrative for a small
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: minority of the people who do it right, and there's
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 1: a lot of there's some people who can make a
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 1: little bit of money playing the lotto on a regular
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: basis with scratch offs and stuff like that.
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: But like, it's not that bad statistically, But I know
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: what you mean.
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know. There's a lot of people who are
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 1: dumping money into it who never get anything back, a lot.
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 2: Of people who are actually making living careers on it.
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: That's true, that's true. It is You're right, it is
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 1: less unlikely.
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 2: The house does not always win with content creation.
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: No, that's true, that's true.
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: But vibes wise, I totally get what you're saying, Like
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 2: it's appeared to have so many things line up correctly
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 2: and have luck on top of that, Like.
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 1: It's and then even even then, I see people who
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 1: have luck, talent, skill followers and are still not making
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 1: a living wage on social media.
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a crapshoot out there in the attention economy.
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 2: It's a real freaking crap shoot, yes, Fuji, Oh my god.
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 2: Being an editor has definitely made it harder for me
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 2: to watch or listen to anything. I can hear the
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 2: tiniest fucking things. It's so wild mm hmmm, just editor brain.
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 1: Like when they dub over something, I can often hear
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 1: it before I can see it, because I hear the
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 1: change in audio.
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 2: I can hear in audio books when they had to
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 2: retake lines.
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 1: On it all the time.
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 2: So obvious, it's so obvious.
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 1: So obvious. It's just like, wow, that's not even close
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 1: to the original tone or volume. Or you are clearly
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 1: tired in that because you've been recording for a while
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: and this one you're bright and chipper and talking much
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 1: faster because it's a one line. You're recording by itself
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 1: as supposed to read me the whole paragraph like it's yeah,
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 1: it's rough, like I think when I had the one
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 1: time we did an audiobook, I had Patrick reread usually
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 1: two or three paragraphs when he made a mistake, because
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 1: that was the only way I could cut Yeah, it
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: was the only way to cut it in a way
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 1: that sounded natural. And I didn't necessarily use the whole
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: two or three paragraphs, but the part that I used
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 1: had to be part of a couple of paragraphs. We
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: we put so much work into that thing. We needed.
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: We should have had better microphones.
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 1:47:41
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• 1:47:43
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• 1:47:48
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• 1:47:51
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• 1:47:54
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