Latest / The Reverse Aging Club with Meredith Oke / 136: Scott Zimmerman - The Hidden Power of Sunlight: How Infrared Light Fuels Your Biology

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136: Scott Zimmerman - The Hidden Power of Sunlight: How Infrared Light Fuels Your Biology · The Reverse Aging Club with Meredith Oke

5:00
Meredith Oke: All right, Scott Zimmerman, welcome back to the
5:01
QVC podcast. Really lovely to see you again.
5:05
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah. Beautiful warm day here. Sun's coming
5:10
through.
5:10
Meredith Oke: Beautiful. Where are you again? Remind me.
5:13
Scott Zimmerman: New Jersey. We had 13 Saturdays of rain.
5:17
Meredith Oke: Oh, I was gonna say, I have a beautiful warm day
5:19
here. I'm just across. I'm just across the river
5:22
in New York. We're right near the Tappan Zee.
5:26
Scott Zimmerman: Ah.
5:27
Meredith Oke: So I have your weather. It is gorgeous. And yeah,
5:30
it's the rain. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So sun's
5:37
out. We're in a good mood.
5:39
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah.
5:42
Meredith Oke: All right, so I, I'm really happy to have you
5:45
back. I love how you explain things and your
5:49
energy and your dedication to, like, all this
5:53
craziness that we're all trying to understand.
6:00
So, as I mentioned, I was. I want to start with
6:04
this post that you wrote recently. And I know
6:07
it's part of something bigger which you can tell
6:09
me about, but it was. There's some very. There's
6:13
some sentences in here that I'd love to unpack
6:15
with you. I think they're just like, super
6:18
helpful. So. Okay, so I'm just going to start
6:21
reading. This is what you wrote on LinkedIn.
6:24
There are, there are dozens. There are dozens of
6:28
ways to quantify sunlight. And it matters how we
6:30
present the data because it can mislead, hide, or
6:33
enlighten. The impact of sunlight on the rapid
6:36
increases in metabolic diseases is best
6:39
illustrated using photons per second per area,
6:43
per energy unit.
6:48
Scott Zimmerman: You know.
6:50
Meredith Oke: Tell me, tell the English major what we're
6:54
talking about here.
6:56
Scott Zimmerman: Well, you know, you can, you can put, you have a
7:00
bunch of things and you can put them in different
7:03
bins and depending on how big the bin is, the
7:06
number they'll go in and how. So you, you have
7:09
this way. And so we present data are the solar
7:12
spectrum in a certain way, usually in watts per
7:14
meter squared per degree per nanometer, the
7:19
irradiation as a function of wavelength that
7:23
makes this nice little peak where right in the
7:26
visible. And everybody looks at it. And then you
7:28
see the infrared, it goes way down and it looks
7:32
like it's almost trivial. Now I can take that
7:35
exact same solar spectrum and I can reorient it
7:41
or re bin it into what matters to the body, which
7:47
is how much energy, how many photons are in a
7:51
particular energy band. Okay, Think about it like
7:54
a solar cell. You know, a solar cell. The solar
7:57
cell guys have these. Build these cells that have
8:01
band gaps. So within the band gap, photons that
8:05
have that energy can do generate an electron.
8:09
Okay. Photons that don't have that energy, don't
8:13
generate an electron. Well, a similar type
8:15
thing's going on in the body. We have all these
8:18
enzymes and activations and barrier energy
8:21
barriers that are used to regulate how the body
8:25
works. You know, it's not like you have this.
8:31
Everything's just a wide open wild west and
8:34
everybody's everything. Every chemical reaction
8:36
is happening time. We have very controlled ways
8:39
that we go through various. Whether it be the
8:41
electron transport chain, whether it be immune
8:44
response, all these things are controlled using
8:48
enzymes and various other things and light to
8:53
essentially make us live and be healthy. When we
8:58
start getting things out of whack is when we are
9:01
unhealthy. And so all I was trying to show was is
9:06
that if you put it in terms of electron volt
9:10
energy, which we call electron volt, that's the
9:14
amount of energy it takes to move an electron
9:17
through one volt of potential. And you know, it
9:23
has a certain amount of energy. If we reorient or
9:27
re. Graph. These are, these are not really graph.
9:30
These are hit what they call histograms. Okay.
9:33
And I'm sorry, it's getting a little deep, but
9:36
bottom line is you can put it in the right bins
9:39
that matter to the body, which is in, like I say,
9:43
photons per second. You know, when you talk about
9:45
quantum, we always talk about photons. Well, now
9:50
you need to also talk about electrons. And that's
9:53
in electron volts. So these photons are, if we
9:58
show it in a manner that is more applicable to
10:02
mitochondria, all of a sudden you get this peak
10:06
at 0.75 electron volts, which is about 1600
10:10
nanometers. Now I was talking, I found this from
10:14
the solar cell guys. And I was talking to Bob and
10:17
I said, bob, what's this peak? And Bob says,
10:21
well, everybody knows what that peak is. That's
10:23
the hydrogen minus ion opacity window in the sun.
10:28
And I said, not all of us knew that that was what
10:31
was going on. But it turns out that there is a
10:36
particular energy band coming from the sun that
10:44
in that band there are more photons released by
10:47
the sun because they're allowed to escape from
10:50
deeper in the atmosphere of the Sun. And this is
10:53
well known to astronomers, but not well known to
10:57
me and not well known to any biologist that I
10:59
know of. But it turns out that it is an
11:03
opportunity. And it appears based on how the body
11:07
has adapted over billions of years and life forms
11:10
have adapted, that that's an optimum region that
11:15
where most of the activation energies associated
11:18
with biology actually occur. Is it a coincidence?
11:23
Maybe it's a coincidence, but it looks like it's
11:26
actually intentional. So essentially there's this
11:29
region in the infrared where that aligns very
11:34
well with what is going on on a biological level
11:38
as far as the amount of energy it takes to get
11:40
you to move an electron in the electron transport
11:44
chain or any of these other biological processes.
11:48
And to see that changes your, in my opinion,
11:52
changes your entire perspective as to what's
11:54
important in sunlight. You know, it doesn't mean
11:58
that you don't need sunlight to see, it doesn't
12:01
mean you don't need UV to do, to make vitamin D
12:05
and all the steroids. But in the infrared, and
12:09
this is not the near infrared, this is farther
12:12
out in the infrared, there's a kind of like this
12:15
merger or this coincidence of what sun provides
12:20
and what we need biologically as far as energy
12:24
levels. And when we talk about quantum, then you
12:29
get into this issue of. It's very well understood
12:32
that photosynthesis and electron transport chain
12:37
is a quantum process. Okay. What happens is, is
12:41
the electron, there are a series of barriers in
12:44
the electron transport chain. And either through
12:48
enzymes or just general mobility of the molecules
12:52
or sunlight, that that electron is allowed to
12:56
jump that barrier, generate some protons that
13:00
help that, and goes through a series of these
13:02
steps. Those steps are all in this region as far
13:07
as energy levels. And so it appears that from
13:11
everything we're looking at, that literally
13:14
sunlight doing a process called, and you can look
13:18
it up as photon assisted quantum tunneling is
13:22
essentially allowing us to be more likely for
13:25
that electron to jump and therefore generate a
13:28
little bit more ATP, more efficiently generate
13:30
ATP, which is, agrees with Glenn's data, where
13:34
he's shining some longer wavelength light. And it
13:39
doesn't have to be any particular wavelength, it
13:41
can be a lot of different wavelengths. And all of
13:44
a sudden the ATP production efficiency goes up,
13:48
CO2 levels drop, are increase as well. So we know
13:53
that that is, so we have done something with
13:56
light to enhance the efficiency of, of the
13:58
electron transport chain.
14:01
Meredith Oke: Wow. Okay, so. Oh, so cool. Okay, so cool. So
14:06
I've a couple of things. One, I'm hearing that
14:11
what you're talking about is a framework for
14:13
looking at sunlight as an energy source for
14:17
biology as opposed to the traditional way of
14:20
looking at it.
14:21
Scott Zimmerman: Excellent assessment. Yeah, better than I do. I
14:24
appreciate that.
14:25
Meredith Oke: And then second of all, if we lack, if our
14:29
biology lacks exposure to this specific bandwidth
14:35
that you're talking about, we, we can't live.
14:40
Scott Zimmerman: Well, I wouldn't say you can't live. I mean,
14:42
that's what's so beautiful about how you got
14:45
energy from the sun coming in from this
14:47
direction. Higher energy, lower energy, you've
14:50
got our basic surroundings. Our body is sitting
14:54
here at a temperature and our surroundings are at
14:57
a temperature that's enough to where it kind of
15:00
gets into the same region. But it appears based
15:05
on looking at it now from this different
15:08
perspective, that there is a huge advantage
15:12
associated with bringing in these lower energy
15:17
photons. Because bear in mind, you know, if
15:19
you're looking at the electron transfer chain,
15:23
it's a less than a volt or electron volt or the
15:27
energy level is fairly low and they do a series
15:30
of hopping in order to get from, from one
15:34
potential level down to another potential level
15:36
and generate the protons. So and those protons
15:40
then drive the ATP production. But it is pretty
15:44
clear from what we're looking at is that there is
15:48
a role that sunlight plays in enhancing the
15:52
efficiency of which you make ATP and therefore
15:58
taking that away and only putting us in these
16:01
dark environments. The modern cave that we have
16:05
where it's all high energy photons in
16:10
perspective, we're talking about 0.75 electron
16:13
volts in down here where we're talking about
16:16
going on with the electron transfer chain. We're
16:19
talking about, when we look visually it's three
16:21
to two, two to three electron volts. So much
16:23
higher energy. So if they come in and they get
16:27
involved in the process they generate, they, they
16:31
can definitely kick the electron up over the
16:33
barrier. But they also, the excess generates a
16:36
lot of reactive oxygen species. So.
16:39
Meredith Oke: Okay, and when that is happening, when we, our,
16:45
our light sources are mostly artificial and
16:47
inside and we're not outside enough or is that.
16:51
Scott Zimmerman: Well, no, it's happening when you're outside. But
16:53
what it, what it appears to be happening is, is
16:56
that the higher energy photons are being used for
17:00
important features. You need the, the uv, which
17:04
is about three to four electron volts to generate
17:09
the things we need for vitamin D, for steroids,
17:12
for cortisol, all these things. So we need that
17:15
to happen. But that process is very energetic and
17:19
damaging. You can get sunburned, you can get all
17:23
this kind of stuff, then you drop down into the
17:26
visible and we need that to be able to see. But
17:30
again it has enough energy to break bonds and do
17:33
things that are negative. And then you get into
17:35
the near infrared and you start to see beneficial
17:38
versus harmful. Still need these functions to go
17:42
on up here, but they're in. The farther we get
17:46
down, closer we get to the energy levels that are
17:50
being used in things like the electron transport
17:54
chain, the more, the less reactive oxygen species
17:57
being generated and the more efficient we are at
18:01
generating ATP and other things.
18:05
Meredith Oke: Okay, so how does that translate into what we
18:12
should do like optimally so to expose ourselves
18:19
to this window that all the astronomers knew
18:23
about with the peak and the energy cell, the
18:27
solar cell guys know about with the peak, but the
18:29
biologists have no idea, even though what you're
18:32
saying is that it's of crucial for optimal
18:34
functioning of biology. So when is that?
18:40
Scott Zimmerman: Well, I guess what I'd say is when we're at the
18:42
body is obviously designed under the assumption
18:46
that we're exposed to a broadband emitter. Okay,
18:49
okay.
18:50
Meredith Oke: What do you mean by broadband emitter?
18:52
Scott Zimmerman: Broadband sunlight, moonlight fire,
18:56
incandescents, things like our light bulbs, you
18:59
know, those type of things. Even the thermal
19:02
vents down in the bottom of the ocean are
19:04
broadband thermal emitters. And they follow more
19:07
like a Planckian type response. Okay. Which
19:10
means, not to be fancy, it just means that it's a
19:13
large number of wavelengths. Everything from UV
19:16
all the way down into the far infrared. Okay,
19:19
okay.
19:20
Meredith Oke: So we're getting across the spectrum.
19:23
Scott Zimmerman: Across the spectrum.
19:24
Meredith Oke: All right. And that's what we need.
19:27
Scott Zimmerman: And that's what we need. That's what the bodies
19:28
are developed for. When you start parceling it up
19:33
and you start. There is no place in nature other
19:36
than, as Bob would say, well, the auroras are
19:39
narrow band. Well, yeah, they're pretty, but
19:42
they're not the main thing that bother us all.
19:45
But every other light source that we are exposed
19:50
to has emitter is broadband. I mean, when I say
19:55
broadband, it goes from UV all the way out to the
19:58
far infrared. And so what appears, based on the
20:03
stuff we're seeing, is that, you know, we need
20:06
these higher energies to do things like crack the
20:09
cholesterol down to where we can make the stuff
20:12
we need for vitamin D. Have to have that. But
20:16
it's a process that is very energetic. And as you
20:19
know, you can get a sunburn fairly easily,
20:22
especially you and me. So the point is, is that
20:27
the other part, the longer wavelengths are there
20:31
to deal with the fact that we have these, have to
20:34
have these other higher energy photons involved
20:38
in the process, you know, and if you don't, then
20:43
you get more like what we're seeing now, the
20:45
astronauts, the submariners. I mean, if you look
20:48
at some of the hostages that were held down in
20:50
tunnels for a year without any sunlight, you see
20:54
what's happening. It's degrades you know, we need
20:57
the spectrum, the characteristics of sunlight to
21:01
be healthy. And unfortunately, that's becoming
21:04
less and less a part of our lives. You know,
21:08
people will sit in, in dark rooms with the TV
21:11
blaring away. That's just providing them with
21:13
visible light, the incandescent lighting, the
21:16
window, blocking all the things we're doing for
21:19
blocking energy, then the air, infrared from
21:21
coming into houses are all degrading the balance
21:26
that nature provides. And it's very clear, you
21:31
know, I'm still totally on the near infrared, but
21:35
I'm saying that what we're. Every time we move
21:37
out a little further in the spectrum to longer
21:41
and longer wavelengths, we're finding out that
21:42
the body has a lot of stuff that it's doing with
21:46
it that we don't even understand. And one of the
21:49
problems, the fundamental problem to start the
21:51
whole process is we keep on showing the solar
21:55
spectrum in terms, in the wrong terms, units of
21:59
measure. And as soon as you do that, and I don't
22:02
know if, you know, I don't think you have the
22:05
graph to put up, but what Bob did is he showed it
22:09
and showed the relationship between when you
22:13
start putting in an electron volts and how that
22:16
kind of just perfectly marries up with what we
22:19
see as the average activation energy of
22:22
biological processes. And so to me, it's the most
22:28
fundamental, amazing thing I've ever seen. As far
22:31
as, you know, it's clear that over billions of
22:36
years our biology was moving closer and closer to
22:42
this peak that had a little extra energy. And it
22:47
provides, it provides that extra energy in the
22:50
form that we feel alive during the day, we get
22:54
sleepy at night when it goes away. You know, it's
22:57
not that complicated. I don't think. It's just,
23:00
you know, convincing everybody that they need to
23:03
get outside a little bit and go to bed when it's
23:06
dark, you know?
23:08
Meredith Oke: Yeah, no, the practical application is incredibly
23:12
simple. Yeah, go outside in the day, open a
23:16
window, have lighting that's as close to
23:19
broadband emitter as possible, and sleep in the
23:23
dark when it gets dark.
23:24
Scott Zimmerman: I mean, it used to be that was the norm. And
23:28
people, you know, would go off to sanitariums to
23:31
get more light and get more fresh air and get
23:33
more, you know, good food. And now we've kind of
23:38
created this about the opposite environment where
23:42
you can't have this. You're not providing the
23:46
full spectrum to the. And I would argue that,
23:49
that it's, it's even worse than that because
23:53
we're talking about two very different balancing
23:56
act that's going on in the body. It needs these
23:59
to counter the other when you introduce just one.
24:03
I did some bio sweat sensor measurements and we
24:09
were looking at cortisol and it was amazing that
24:16
you could sit in a dark room with a TV on 10 lux,
24:20
just a basic sitting in front of TV and the
24:24
cortisol was spiking all through that time.
24:28
Melatonin was kind of suppressed all through that
24:31
time. So I think that, you know, there's an
24:35
argument to be made that it's not just that we
24:40
should do this because it's more healthy, we
24:43
should get rid of what we're doing or at least
24:46
try and add some, some infrared back in to
24:50
everything, because not having it is creating
24:54
harm. And that's my biggest concern. With all the
24:58
metabolic diseases. One of the reasons that we're
25:01
doing what we're doing is that metabolic diseases
25:05
are all linked into the electron transport chain
25:08
and the ATP production. And it's very clear that
25:13
the longer wavelengths are a positive
25:16
reinforcement of that, making it more efficient.
25:18
More efficient. The ATP is the healthier you
25:21
basically are. And you know, so. So I think that
25:27
getting it in the right terms and looking at how
25:32
biology and sunlight are mixing together, we're.
25:38
I guess one of the analogies that's used is that
25:40
we're kind of like this battery system and we
25:43
charge up and that gets the, you know, as Glenn
25:48
shown with his experiments, you know, just as
25:51
short exposures can have a beneficial effect over
25:55
a longer time frame because you're essentially
25:58
making the ATP, the electron transport chain,
26:03
more efficient and maybe even adding in more
26:06
units into the, into it to where it's just
26:09
operating at a better level, taking it away.
26:12
Meredith Oke: With that in that infrared exposure.
26:16
Scott Zimmerman: Right. Okay.
26:17
Meredith Oke: And just to touch what you were saying earlier
26:21
about how UV is, on the one hand, extremely UV
26:26
exposure is necessary and important. On the other
26:29
hand, it does cause damage. So on a sort of like
26:34
a practical basis, you know, what I notice
26:36
personally is if it's. I'm outside on a hot
26:39
summer day, direct sunlight on my body feels
26:44
really good for, I don't know, let's say 20, 25
26:48
minutes, and then I kind of get, I get the
26:51
inclination to go in the shade.
26:53
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah.
26:54
Meredith Oke: And that's. Is that sort of what we're talking
26:56
about, like just keeping that balance and even
26:59
the shade and being outside is still having all
27:05
those positive effects you described, especially
27:07
on the body's optimization of ATP production.
27:12
That's still happening.
27:14
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah, I mean, I think that. And we're going to
27:16
find more and more of these biological processes
27:20
that affect the immune system, that affect
27:23
neurological. I mean, you feel, you said, I feel.
27:28
Well, yeah, because your brain is basically
27:31
having some response to making you feel a
27:34
particular way. I mean, and, you know, we started
27:39
this out just doing the optics of looking at
27:42
where light goes in the body. But now what we're
27:46
finding is, is that, you know, it's not just
27:49
where it goes, it's also what it, you know, a
27:53
number of the wavelengths have very localized,
27:58
are absorbed very strongly. There's a picture I
28:00
put in the link at Lincoln Post here at least
28:03
recently, where, you know, we all have black skin
28:07
and white hair in the longer wavelengths. And
28:12
that means that the body is trying to absorb
28:15
those photons preferentially and using them for
28:20
something in particular. It looks like immune as
28:24
a pathogen barrier is one possibility, but, you
28:28
know, in general, you need all the different
28:31
components working together in unison rather
28:35
than. We have this tendency as a scientist to do
28:40
reductionist experiments even. Glenn's experiment
28:44
was done at 670 nanometers. Another one's at
28:47
1064. That's not what's happening in the body.
28:52
When we're outdoors, we're getting all those
28:54
wavelengths together. Some are going deeper in
28:57
the body, some are localized on the surface. And
29:01
as we move into shade, then it shifts it to more
29:05
into the infrared, then the visible and the UV
29:08
gets absorbed more strongly by the leaves and our
29:11
surroundings. So there's a shift in that general
29:16
balance, but there's always something to counter
29:20
the other. Unfortunately, that's not what we do
29:24
now. I mean, we have said, okay, we only need
29:27
from 400 to 650nm to see, to read, therefore.
29:33
Meredith Oke: So that's. Oh, that's what our light bulbs were
29:36
like. Just that?
29:37
Scott Zimmerman: Just that.
29:39
Meredith Oke: But our biology was designed for, as you said,
29:42
the broadband emissions, all of.
29:44
Scott Zimmerman: It, 250 out to 6,000 nanometers. I mean, we are
29:49
talking less than 10% of the spectral content of.
29:55
Is what we expose our children to every day. And
30:00
they don't get out getting what the wire. You
30:04
know, especially in urban areas, it's very
30:07
difficult. I understand it is. I mean, if you're
30:10
in prison, you got. They got real problems. And
30:13
you know, and hospitals are terrible. I mean,
30:16
they're probably about the worst place you could
30:18
go as far as this aspect of life. But we know
30:23
very strongly that ATP efficiency and ATP
30:27
production is a very good marker of health. I
30:30
mean, if you have, if you're operating at a high
30:33
level of ATP production and health or and
30:37
efficiency, then it's a beneficial condition as
30:42
far as our health is concerned. And all I'm
30:45
saying is is that we started out, you know, just
30:48
to give you a framework. UV starts here around
30:51
280 nanometers, goes down to about 400 some odd
30:55
nanometers for when we start to see. 650 is what
30:59
we mostly cut off for the LEDs. Near infrared
31:03
runs from 650 out to about 1100 or 1000
31:07
nanometers. This other infrared, the shortwave
31:10
infrared and minute infrared runs out to 6,000
31:14
nanometers. And while the energy level of the
31:19
photons may be less, less at the longer
31:24
wavelengths, they appear to be more appropriate
31:29
to do things with biology because those are the
31:33
energy levels that we, that the body is using to
31:38
regulate all our processes. You know, other than
31:43
seeing and generating, like I say, the uv, the
31:46
majority of our bodily processes, the entire
31:49
electron transport chain has a series of barriers
31:52
that are less than an electron volt, are pretty
31:55
close to electron volt, which is, you know, very
31:58
small amount of energy. You can come in with a
32:00
big, heavy, big high energy boost and you'll have
32:05
an effect, but you're going to also generate some
32:09
level of damage associated with it. So, you know,
32:14
like I say, and we've only gone to six that we
32:18
still don't quite understand, even the longer
32:20
wavelengths than that. And really, it's almost
32:23
like a fundamental problem with science. If you
32:25
can't measure it, it's hard to understand it, you
32:29
know, and.
32:30
Meredith Oke: Yeah, well, it's almost like if you can't measure
32:33
it, it doesn't exist.
32:35
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah, well, I mean, kind of what.
32:37
Meredith Oke: The sense I get from, from the measures. Yeah,
32:41
the people who measure.
32:42
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah, that, that, that is what the, the problem
32:45
we ran into. When you look at light, sunlight,
32:50
the solar spectrum in terms of watts, then it
32:54
looks like there's nothing useful going on down
32:57
at the bottom. And so what do we do? We use that
33:01
as, okay, that doesn't matter. It's just heat.
33:04
We're going to only make 400 to 650 nanometers.
33:11
Now what's happening? Everybody's getting these
33:12
little spectrometers and they're, they're silicon
33:15
spectrometers. Well, they only measure out to
33:17
about 900. And yet people look at and say, oh,
33:21
look at this, I got some, some, some power out
33:24
here at the 900 nanometers. Yeah, well, what
33:28
about 2000? What about 6000? What? And, and, but
33:34
people have their meter and they read their meter
33:37
and you say, okay, put it up to an incandescent
33:40
light bulb. Well, it does. This goes down. No, it
33:44
didn't. Incandescents go up all the way out to
33:47
about 2 to 2000 nanometers. But, you know, but
33:53
their meter, but.
33:54
Meredith Oke: The instrument of measurement has no capacity. So
33:58
it just looks like it goes down.
34:00
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah, I mean, look. And so. So people make a
34:04
judgment. Oh, we added near infrared. No, you
34:07
really didn't add that much near infrared. You
34:10
know, if you're outside and you're in the shade,
34:14
for every watt of optical watt of visible,
34:19
there's three or four times that in the infrared,
34:24
and that's the balance. So, you know, in our
34:28
light sources, we design them to have three to
34:30
one because of some of the work I did. But that's
34:35
in.
34:35
Meredith Oke: In the light bulbs that you make.
34:37
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah, because, you know, the point was, is that
34:40
people who have very dark skin in particular,
34:43
need more near infrared content. In my opinion,
34:46
children need more near infrared content because
34:49
that's kind of the good stuff. And we got rid of
34:53
the good stuff and put it in with the bad stuff.
34:55
And then we're surprised that all of a sudden
34:57
there's some issue. And how bad is it? You know,
35:01
10, 20 years from now? You'll figure that all
35:03
out, unfortunately. But we do know that, I think
35:07
we have been going through a grand experiment
35:11
where we have taken away all the incandescents,
35:15
blocked all the near infrared from coming in, and
35:17
we have these metabolic diseases. I know they
35:20
want to talk about processed food, they want to
35:22
talk about a lot of other things, but sunlight
35:25
has always been the largest energy input into the
35:28
body forever. And, you know, the fact that we
35:32
have now filtered that down to such a narrow
35:36
portion that it's not causing a problem, I think
35:40
is absurd. I mean, you know, I would say that the
35:44
high, though, there's a much higher likelihood
35:46
that the effect of our lighting systems and our
35:51
architecture is bigger than any food, processed
35:53
food. There's tons of different diets out there.
35:56
You know, people eat all kinds of things and
35:58
survive just fine. But this is almost like on a
36:01
global basis, we're having this huge shift, and
36:05
it's so the antithesis of what we really know
36:09
from a logic standpoint. You know, 1800s, people
36:13
were going into sanitariums and places like that
36:16
to get over TB and other diseases, because what
36:20
they do, they got in more sunlight, got in more
36:23
fresh air, got in higher altitude, breathing
36:26
better. You know, the idea that sunlight isn't a
36:30
primary factor in what we're seeing for all these
36:35
Modern society, diseases. I mean, all we're doing
36:39
is, is going and showing. Hey, there's a
36:41
mechanism. Yes. You know, here's a mechanism and
36:46
that makes. I love your cat, by the way.
36:50
Meredith Oke: That's Puck.
36:51
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah.
36:52
Meredith Oke: We call it the infidel. Yes. So the mechanism.
36:55
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah, yeah. I mean that's, that's really the,
36:58
the. If you can show a mechanism, then people can
37:02
start to quantify it. And you know, I'm hopeful
37:05
that what's going to happen is once we get some
37:08
more of these biosensors out there, that people
37:11
are going to start looking for themselves and
37:13
finding out whether or not, you know, how much in
37:16
the sun they need to be in order to really feel
37:18
good about themselves.
37:20
Meredith Oke: Right. Which is where measuring is very helpful
37:23
because when people see that data like, oh, I'm
37:26
in front of my TV and my blood sugar plummets and
37:28
oh, I go outside and things stabilize. I just one
37:32
quick thing on the, on the processed food. Yeah,
37:37
what I, what I, here's my. I, here's my ideal
37:43
near future vision. Is that the, the way that we
37:48
are understanding processed food right now and
37:51
the huge push, especially in the United States,
37:53
it's been going on other place in Europe for
37:55
longer to really get the general population to
37:59
understand how bad it is to eat ultra processed
38:03
food as the mainstay of your diet. If we can then
38:07
translate that understanding into a paradigm
38:12
shift that sees light as an equal input into our
38:16
body on like on par with food, maybe we have a
38:20
chance of reframing. And as, as you were talking
38:24
about earlier, we need to reframe the way we
38:26
think about the sun with the way we measure the
38:29
outputs of the sun. If we can reframe the way we
38:32
think about light from just something that we
38:35
need to see to an essential life source, food
38:42
source for our body, just in a different form.
38:46
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah, I mean, I think that that's a good way to
38:49
do it. I mean, essentially, you know, the
38:53
ability, our ability to operate optimally is
38:57
under attack at the present time. You know, and
39:02
I, we, it's not just the emitters that we've
39:09
done. It's also a lifestyle shift that we've made
39:12
where, you know, kids don't go outside and play.
39:16
Meredith Oke: Yeah.
39:16
Scott Zimmerman: Kids don't go to. Everything is a more of a
39:23
organized indoors under artificial lighting, you
39:27
know, and the kids last thing the kid sees is
39:30
before he goes to bed is a screen that has no
39:33
infrared content. So over time, like I say, all
39:40
we're trying to do is highlight the different
39:42
mechanisms and it's been this progression of, we
39:45
started out invisible, added some near infrared.
39:48
Then we got to the point we figured out that
39:50
there's now this longer wavelength stuff going on
39:53
and we still have half the solar spectrum to go.
39:56
Basically we're really seeing stuff at, you know,
39:59
we got out to 3,000 nanometers, we gotta get out
40:02
to six before we actually include all the stuff
40:05
that's going on from sunlight. And the idea that
40:08
nature hasn't optimized to take advantage of of
40:11
all those different energy sources is just
40:14
counterintuitive. You know, that's what nature
40:17
does because that's called survival. The entity
40:22
that can actually take advantage of something and
40:25
get an advantage over another one is going to win
40:29
the battle. And you know, and I just find it
40:33
really fascinating that it's not something that
40:36
we have the biologists over here, as you were
40:39
talking about silos, it's an enzyme, it's a
40:42
chemical reaction, it's all this other stuff. The
40:44
optics guys are over here saying, oh, we're
40:47
changing, you know, this, that and the other, you
40:51
know, biology thing. They're not talking to each
40:53
other hardly at all. You know, and the more we
40:58
find out. All I was trying to show is that, you
41:01
know, we've got this huge amount of energy
41:03
associated with sunlight that can be good or bad
41:07
for biological processes. And then you've got the
41:12
normal biology guys coming together and they're
41:15
meeting at this, just happened to be meeting at
41:18
this point. 75 EV. That is a unique situation
41:24
associated with the sun itself. And I just think
41:27
it's fascinating and fundamental in what's going
41:31
on and, but you need both sides of the parties to
41:37
give a little so that we can get, to get to the
41:41
truth, I guess is what I'd say.
41:44
Meredith Oke: Yeah, you know, it's such a, like, it's just so
41:47
fascinating from a civilizational perspective
41:51
that, you know, we can have these incredible
41:55
human intelligences hyper focused in a certain
41:58
area and be so incredibly well versed and deeply
42:06
understand that little area, but be still
42:08
completely missing the bigger picture. And we
42:12
seem to lack any kind of society level framework
42:18
for pulling out and linking all these things
42:22
together. Even recently the magazine Scientific
42:28
American had a cover, the Sunlight Cure. It was
42:32
all about how sunlight is good for us and UV
42:35
light is good for us. And then they'd have this
42:39
one paragraph where the scientists were like,
42:45
yeah, but we don't understand the mechanisms yet.
42:48
And I'm like, you guys gotta go talk to Scott.
42:55
There are people who understand the mechanisms.
42:57
Go talk to Dr. Frederick Guy. But they hadn't
43:03
looked yet. So as far as they were concerned, the
43:05
mechanism is not understood.
43:07
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah, and it's a shame because we do know a lot.
43:11
We know an awful lot. And it's such a perfect
43:15
opportunity. This is like the watershed moment,
43:19
in my opinion, from the standpoint of the
43:20
biologists and the quantum biologists to get
43:23
together, because this is coming down to quantum
43:28
levels and it is. And people get scared by that.
43:32
But I mean, a simple thing is to go back to the
43:35
unit measure rather than talking about Watts,
43:37
talk about photons per second. It's now a
43:41
quantized event. And it matters how many of those
43:45
photons, what energy level they are and what the
43:50
density of them in the body is being absorbed and
43:53
how that is coupling into our biological
43:56
processes. It doesn't have to be coherence and
43:59
all this other stuff. In my opinion, it will
44:02
start out with something simple. I got a chunk of
44:05
energy, it goes here in the body, and it helps
44:09
this process work better or doesn't help this
44:12
process work better. And you know that those
44:16
mechanisms we can do, we can model them, we can
44:19
put them together. And what I put in that, the
44:22
equation, the one, the simple little equation in
44:25
there on photon assisted quantum or quantum
44:28
tunneling, you know, it sounds really spooky, but
44:32
at some level there is a probability that small
44:36
little things like electrons, and this is what I
44:41
think is just so cool, is that the mass of the
44:45
particle determines and the barrier and the width
44:49
of the barrier all determine the probability of
44:51
an electron moving through a barrier. Now, we use
44:56
barriers in our biology to time when things
45:01
happen and how big of an event they are. Now, the
45:06
fact that we can provide a photon to that region
45:11
and add in a little bit more energy so that the
45:14
electron can jump that barrier and a little bit
45:18
more efficiently, efficiently generate a proton,
45:23
which then makes the turbine spin, you know, is
45:28
all occurring on these scales that you have to
45:31
start talking about quantum effects. And they're
45:34
not that great. It doesn't have to be that
45:36
complicated. You know, literally, there's a great
45:40
paper done out of the Guy Foundation. Nathan, I
45:45
forget his last. I think Booth, I'm not sure.
45:47
Anyway, showing water molecules, and he's
45:50
modeling what happens when an electron hits that
45:54
water molecule. And what it show was able to show
45:58
is that he could actually it affected the
46:01
molecule beside, it made it a little bit more
46:06
excited. It then made this one over here a little
46:08
bit more excited. And before long, the electron
46:11
popped out on the other side, you know, and so we
46:15
know that water is doing all these amazing things
46:18
in the body. We keep it, you know, we came out of
46:21
the ocean and we carried our water with us,
46:23
essentially. And in this region that we're now
46:28
looking at, Bob and I are now looking at, water
46:32
is the main absorber. It is the chromophore. It
46:35
is actually what's doing, absorbing the photon
46:38
and moving it around, making things work. And
46:42
it's. You think about like a. A whole big, you
46:47
know, one of those plague again gyms where they
46:49
got all the balls in them, you know.
46:51
Meredith Oke: Yeah.
46:52
Scott Zimmerman: And the kid jumps into the, into the thing and,
46:54
and the balls move, but they. Some of them move
46:58
quite a ways away from them because it depends on
47:01
how they all interact. So, I mean, what sunlight
47:05
is really doing, in my opinion, is taking and
47:09
charging up the battery a little bit, but really
47:12
generating an environment where electron
47:15
generated by the food we eat, whatever is more
47:19
likely to jump the barrier and get a proton
47:23
generated to generate a little bit more ATP and
47:27
do that with the least amount of the most
47:33
efficient way, I guess I'd say so that, that's
47:36
kind of what I think of it. But I guess I also
47:39
like play gyms, so. And trampoline.
47:43
Meredith Oke: The ball pits are always. Yeah, I love it. And
47:47
yes, I think, you know, when you explain it like
47:50
that, it, it just makes it so obvious that we
47:54
need to be talking about biology on that level,
47:57
on that, that quantum biologic level and not just
48:01
the biochemical level or what. Whatever else
48:03
we've been doing. It gets just so clear. It.
48:07
Yeah, we just need you. We need all you guys to
48:09
have like, megaphones.
48:13
Scott Zimmerman: No, you know, it's why, it's why, why, you know,
48:17
it's like Glenn, he's started out and he was
48:21
doing the. All the experiments on the bees and
48:24
the insects. And, you know, that's the other
48:26
thing that I wish people would really understand.
48:29
Get rid of your LED lights. Outdoors, we are
48:31
doing a number on insects in particular, because
48:35
if you look at optically, all the energy going
48:39
into the insects are so small that they are
48:44
essentially exposed to all the wavelengths at
48:46
once. You know, we got kind of, we're big enough
48:49
to where some of the near infrared gets down in
48:53
deeper, but we kind of have this outer shell type
48:56
thing going on where most of the energy is
48:58
absorbed on the outer surface skin. Why our skin
49:01
replaces every 21 days, blah, blah, blah. But
49:06
insects are so much the canary in the coal mine
49:10
on this whole thing. And I think that we're
49:14
totally underestimating the impact we're having
49:17
on our health by the standpoint of what we're
49:21
doing to the insect population. I grew up in
49:24
Kansas. You know, when I was growing up, you
49:28
drove. Drive down the road, you got grasshopper
49:30
all, you know, clean the windshields. All that
49:33
hardly ever happens anymore around here, it seems
49:35
like, you know, I was watching fireflies last
49:39
night out there, and there's not near as many as
49:41
I remember some of the other places. So I. You
49:45
know, it's just. I think that we need to get a
49:49
little bit more serious about what we're doing to
49:51
the environment. But in general, what Glenn's
49:55
been doing is he started out with the insects,
49:59
then he went into looking at cells, and then he's
50:04
moved his way up into mice. And now he's doing
50:07
basically all his experiments on humans and
50:10
exposing them to various things and seeing, you
50:13
know, his latest. Some of his latest stuff is
50:16
that, you know, he took and replaced the LED with
50:19
an incandescent. And then he also did an 850
50:24
nanometer type exposure. And he was looking at
50:29
color contrast in the eye. And this was just.
50:31
There's still LEDs up here on the ceiling.
50:33
There's just an incandescent desk lamp there
50:36
where people are working and all that other
50:38
stuff. And in less than a week, he was able to
50:41
Show a significant 20% degradation in their color
50:45
contrast, ability to differentiate colors, which
50:49
is. Glenn's. One of the world's experts on these
50:51
things.
50:51
Meredith Oke: Okay, sorry, walk me through this again. So this
50:53
is Glenn Jeffries. So he started. He. He looked
50:57
at the impact of narrow. The narrow spectrum on
51:02
insects. Now he's moved to humans. And so he
51:06
found that people's ability to differentiate
51:09
color was degraded by working under LEDs in a
51:13
matter of weeks. Maybe in a matter of weeks now
51:17
doesn't mean.
51:17
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah, I mean, all we're doing here is generating
51:21
all these different biomarkers. You know, it's.
51:24
You know, the body is dealing with thousands and
51:28
thousands of different reactions at the same time
51:31
simultaneously. So what do we do? We run an
51:34
experiment. Glenn's running an experiment. What
51:37
he showed is that there is a huge difference,
51:39
even the 850, while it helped a little bit on
51:43
some of the color contrast, it was really the
51:45
incandescent that he saw, the big change. And I
51:49
would argue if he could actually do a controlled
51:52
experiment with sunlight, you would actually see
51:55
improvement even further.
51:57
Meredith Oke: So when an incandescent bulb was added, even
52:00
though the led, the ceiling lights were still on,
52:04
there was an improvement?
52:06
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah, the biggest improvement that he measured.
52:09
Meredith Oke: Wow. So LEDS alone. People's eyesight got worse.
52:17
Scott Zimmerman: Yep.
52:17
Meredith Oke: Almost immediately you add in an incandescent
52:21
bulb and it got better.
52:22
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah. And you know, like I say, crazy.
52:28
Meredith Oke: Yeah, this is crazy. No one knows this and that.
52:30
Scott Zimmerman: The thing is, is that's one experiment with one
52:33
biomarker.
52:35
Meredith Oke: Yeah.
52:35
Scott Zimmerman: We could, if we could pull up. I mean I'm sitting
52:37
here and I'm showing that cortisol levels are,
52:41
are spiking on a couple minute intervals. I mean
52:45
one of the things I'm going to be another,
52:46
another thing that's coming out in this, what I'm
52:49
doing is I'm doing a series of four part session
52:52
on Bob's work and some of my work that we're
52:55
going to be posting that I posted two of them on
52:57
so far LinkedIn, there's been some more. But
53:03
literally everybody thinks of circadian and the
53:07
effect of light on their health as being this
53:09
kind of gradual. You know, in the morning you
53:13
have high cortisol, low melatonin, then you go
53:17
down, in the evening you should have low
53:19
cortisol, high melatonin and that's. It does that
53:23
in general. But again it's another measurement
53:27
thing. The sensor I have measures every three
53:30
minutes. Okay. Everybody else is measuring every
53:34
four hours or a day or whatever. Just picking a
53:37
pot. When you start doing, looking at it, at it
53:41
at a high sampling frequency in minutes, what you
53:47
find is that cortisol spikes when we eat, when we
53:51
do vacation, when we do exercise, when we watch
53:54
tv, you have this huge spike. Well, melatonin
53:59
actually has a spike too in response. If the
54:02
cortisol gets too high, all of a sudden out of
54:05
nowhere you see this huge spike in melatonin and
54:09
a drop in TNF alpha, which is a cancer marker. So
54:17
you know, because the melatonin is essentially
54:19
suppressing that cancer marker. So there's so
54:23
many different mechanisms that are being affected
54:28
by our exposure to light, what we eat. I mean
54:32
it's all coming together. You know I, we were, my
54:36
wife and I went out to a Mexican restaurant and
54:40
using and I had the sensor on and you know, you
54:44
don't see it at the time. That's one of the
54:46
intentions is you don't want to actually in got
54:49
to trick the data or whatever. But literally you
54:53
could see the appetizer, then you could see the
54:55
main course, then you can see it going up and I
54:59
had a time.
55:00
Meredith Oke: I don't know if I want that level.
55:02
Scott Zimmerman: What.
55:04
Meredith Oke: Did you have dessert?
55:06
Scott Zimmerman: No, I didn't, I didn't show up either. But you
55:10
Know, but then all of a sudden you get this very
55:12
narrow 10 minute window of melatonin spiking up
55:15
and the cortisol drops because melatonin
55:18
suppresses cortisol. So we've got.
55:20
Meredith Oke: So what's, what's triggering the melatonin?
55:24
Scott Zimmerman: Good question. I have no idea. It's, it's part of
55:28
our control system. There are, there's.
55:30
Meredith Oke: So it just is like, I got it. The melatonin's
55:33
like, I gotta pop up and compensate for this
55:35
cortisol situation. Okay.
55:38
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah. And, you know, maybe it's coming out of the
55:40
gut, maybe it's coming out of. Who knows? Same
55:42
similar thing happens with exercise. You do, you
55:47
know, everybody's measuring at all these hormones
55:50
at such long time spells. It's kind of like, take
55:53
a tennis ball, take a picture, throw it up in the
55:56
air, catch the tennis ball, take another picture,
55:59
ball didn't move. That's what's going on. And now
56:03
with the higher frequency sampling capability
56:06
we're getting, and same was true as Glenn. Glenn
56:09
was monitoring every five to 10 minutes. So he
56:12
could see the change. If he waited two hours,
56:15
there'd been no change. You know, but that's not
56:19
what's going on. There is a clearly a long
56:24
diurnal time constant, but there's also all these
56:29
transient response and you think about just makes
56:31
sense, you know, we go do something, you go, you.
56:34
All of a sudden I'm going to run around the
56:35
block. Number one, I'd have a heart attack. But
56:37
number two, you know, essentially all my all
56:40
everything's going to come up and something has
56:45
to respond on a timescale of minutes that's not
56:50
circadian, it's something else. And it
56:54
contributes to circadian and probably is much
56:58
more important in a lot of ways than these
57:02
diurnal things. That's just kind of like a
57:04
baseline type thing.
57:05
Meredith Oke: Yeah. That's like the overview. But then minute
57:08
to minute, there's all of these other things
57:10
happening.
57:10
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah. And to my knowledge, I don't think
57:13
anybody's ever really shown that. I mean, they've
57:16
known that cortisol was kind of a pulse, but I
57:19
think this is the first time we've shown
57:20
melatonin is actually doing the same thing on a,
57:23
on a time scale of minutes.
57:25
Meredith Oke: Wow. And so how are you measuring this? Is this a
57:29
new technology that's enabling these measurements?
57:34
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah, it's a sweat sensor that's under
57:36
development by a company called Cordy.
57:38
Meredith Oke: Okay.
57:39
Scott Zimmerman: Are in license, I guess is what it got.
57:41
Meredith Oke: So everyone's going to Email me, like, being
57:43
like, where do I get one?
57:45
Scott Zimmerman: Can they get one available right yet?
57:47
Meredith Oke: Okay.
57:48
Scott Zimmerman: But no, I mean, it comes back to this whole
57:53
question of what units we measure, how we
57:57
measure, and we've been kind of. What we're
58:02
finding is that the deeper, the quicker or the
58:06
more accurately you measure things in the body,
58:10
the more complex the whole process is. And you
58:15
think about it has to be, you know, if you let
58:18
cortisol run rampant in your body, then you're
58:24
essentially going to be in a constant state of
58:26
agitation. So what is melatonin doing? Melatonin
58:30
doing is squashing it. But melatonin only is.
58:34
It's. It's got its own set of controls on it, you
58:38
know?
58:38
Meredith Oke: Yeah. And would you need to have enough melatonin
58:43
produced in your body to be able to do this? So
58:45
if you were in a. If I'm just thinking through,
58:49
like, if I am living an indoor lifestyle and
58:52
looking at screens before bed and there's
58:55
streetlight coming through my room, would I even
58:59
have enough melatonin to. For these processes to
59:03
work properly?
59:03
Scott Zimmerman: I would argue no, because I think that you have
59:06
to look at melatonin as a consumable, you know,
59:10
it is used. What does it mainly do? It mainly
59:15
suppresses reactive oxygen species and its
59:18
metabolite, after it gets oxidized does the same
59:22
thing. There's about 10 different metabolites
59:25
below. This is what you started with. So that's
59:28
why it's such an effective scavenger of a
59:31
reactive oxygen species. So every time you do
59:35
something you are depleting, you are using
59:39
melatonin or you're depleting the melatonin
59:41
reserve. When we're outdoors, I would argue that,
59:45
you know, you're essentially pumping it up and
59:48
that that's giving you a storage of it. And these
59:51
are during the day type things. This is not, you
59:55
know, this is not from the pineal gland.
1:00:00
Meredith Oke: Unless this is not the sleeping melatonin.
1:00:03
Scott Zimmerman: This is, this is, this is a. I got. I gotta deal
1:00:07
with the fact that I'm generating tons of
1:00:10
reactive oxygen species in my muscles when I'm
1:00:13
going exercise. And those cells themselves are
1:00:18
generating melatonin. There's no doubt in my mind
1:00:21
about that, you know, but the quantity consumed
1:00:26
is huge when you think about it. You know, it has
1:00:30
to be. So we are generating melatonin throughout
1:00:34
the day and during the night, when there's low
1:00:38
cellular activity and less likely to generate
1:00:41
melatonin, then you still have the brain
1:00:45
operating at a high capacity. Pineal gland dumps
1:00:49
A bunch of melatonin in to help protect the brain
1:00:53
and any cells that are kind of damaged. At least
1:00:57
that's the mentality that I propose. So. And, and
1:01:01
it seems the data is backing me up. I mean,
1:01:04
that's what I think is really cool.
1:01:07
Meredith Oke: I would also add that the actual experience of
1:01:10
people is backing you up. We work, you know, we
1:01:15
deal with, you know, I work with health
1:01:17
practitioners and health coaches, and when they
1:01:21
have clients who are compliant with going
1:01:24
outside, they feel better. You know, I'm not
1:01:27
saying it's like a cure all for everything, but
1:01:29
it. Like there has not. There are very few people
1:01:33
who don't feel better from sleeping in the dark
1:01:36
and going outside more during the day. That's
1:01:39
just what happens.
1:01:41
Scott Zimmerman: Well, and you think about it, I mean, in this
1:01:43
scenario, if the melatonin is being generated in
1:01:46
all our cells. The what? The exercise data that
1:01:51
we have shows that the melatonin within 10 to 20
1:01:56
minutes goes up and plateaus at some level. If
1:02:00
you're doing a certain level of exercise
1:02:02
continuously, the cortisol does exactly the same
1:02:05
thing. But then what happens? Cortisol starts to
1:02:09
fall off after a few 10, 20 minutes of exercise,
1:02:14
but the melatonin doesn't. So it appears that the
1:02:18
body is always trying to generate an excess of
1:02:20
melatonin. So what happens? You go to the beach.
1:02:24
How many people say, I went to the beach and I
1:02:25
just feel tired afterwards?
1:02:27
Meredith Oke: Yeah, I got sleepy.
1:02:28
Scott Zimmerman: I did a really great run and I feel a little
1:02:31
tired afterwards. I did a cold water immersion. I
1:02:34
feel a little tired afterwards. I think those are
1:02:36
all indications that you brought your melatonin
1:02:39
levels up and, you know, they're part of this.
1:02:44
It's eventually getting back down to baseline.
1:02:47
But the transient on transient response, you're
1:02:49
getting a jump in your melatonin levels. And like
1:02:55
I say, I mean, when I saw the data for the TNF
1:02:59
alpha, how it felt, how much it was affected, I
1:03:02
mean, we're talking about spike downward.
1:03:04
Meredith Oke: Okay. And the TNF alpha is the bad stuff?
1:03:08
Scott Zimmerman: No, it's not really. It's a, it's a, it's a
1:03:11
marker associated with cancers.
1:03:14
Meredith Oke: So I call that that stuff.
1:03:16
Scott Zimmerman: Well, I mean, I'm sure that there are people that
1:03:20
know it much better than I, that can explain it.
1:03:22
All I'm showing is the data. Yeah, the data shows
1:03:25
that when that melatonin spikes.
1:03:27
Meredith Oke: So the marker for cancer goes down when the
1:03:30
melatonin goes up.
1:03:31
Scott Zimmerman: Yeah, and that's, that's supported by a number of
1:03:34
different studies that showed that Melatonin
1:03:37
suppresses tumor growth, things of that nature.
1:03:41
So I mean, at the end of the day, what I guess
1:03:44
I'm saying is we're now moving from these, oh, go
1:03:48
do something and a day or two later, test it for
1:03:52
this to into a timescale of minutes. And once you
1:03:57
start doing that, you see that there's all these
1:04:00
different processes going on responding. And you
1:04:03
think about it, you have to, I mean, I, I chopped
1:04:07
off my arm or something, you know, some major
1:04:10
event type thing or even a small event, you got a
1:04:14
burn or whatever, the body can't wait four hours
1:04:18
to respond, you know, and how's it going to do
1:04:22
that? And what the sweat monitoring is really
1:04:26
showing, I think is that there's an entirely
1:04:29
different control system that is operating on
1:04:33
minute time scales that are pumping, they're
1:04:37
responding to a variety of different processes
1:04:40
are stressors that we're exposing ourselves to.
1:04:45
Meredith Oke: Right. And the more daytime exposure to broadband
1:04:50
emitters, the better.
1:04:52
Scott Zimmerman: I think so, yeah. I mean, I keep on saying be,
1:04:56
you know, optical, you know, wear a hat. I mean,
1:05:00
don't slather yourself up with a bunch of
1:05:02
sunscreen, you know, you know, wear a hat, stay,
1:05:08
enjoy the shade. There's a reason you like the
1:05:11
shade. You know, it's got a lot more good stuff
1:05:14
than bad stuff. And you know, that, that, that
1:05:19
guesses my point about the whole thing.
1:05:24
Meredith Oke: Well, Scott, thank you so much for coming back.
1:05:27
You really are gifted at talking about this and I
1:05:32
think playing a really crucial role as a bridge
1:05:38
from the scientists doing their lab work to the
1:05:42
rest of us who really want to know and understand
1:05:44
this as well as creating a product that is
1:05:49
helpful. So just for people to know, they can get
1:05:52
your lights. It's Silas.
1:05:55
Scott Zimmerman: It's nairalighting.com nairalighting.com okay,
1:05:58
yeah.
1:05:59
Meredith Oke: N I R A and if I lighting all1word.com.
1:06:04
Scott Zimmerman: If I could convince anybody to do anything, we
1:06:07
have a DC version that's just a little plugs in,
1:06:11
has a lamp or you can buy a conversion kit that
1:06:14
if you got a lamp that takes a screw in bulb, we
1:06:18
can send you those a conversion kit. It's going
1:06:22
to last you. Basically we give a lifetime
1:06:24
warranty on the bulb because it's designed to
1:06:27
last basically forever. It's set to have two
1:06:30
positions a day and a night. And you know, so
1:06:34
make it very simple and you know, I think it's
1:06:38
the right way to go. If I could just convince
1:06:39
people to put these kind of desk lamps on by
1:06:43
their laptop or Workstation and just get the full
1:06:47
spectrum. It's not going to hurt you, you know,
1:06:50
and it's designed to be as close as match to. To
1:06:54
sunlight as we could. Even more than an
1:06:56
incandescent, because it's got the. Some of the.
1:07:00
During the day, it gives you some of the blue and
1:07:01
greens that you don't get from incandescent that
1:07:04
are in sunlight. So I'm a big guy on ratios and
1:07:09
balance, and that's what I like. If I could sell
1:07:12
everybody on those, I'd be a very happy camper.
1:07:18
Meredith Oke: Yeah. And it is so simple. At the end of the day,
1:07:23
as you were saying, the complexity of the science
1:07:27
is basically infinite, but the actual practical
1:07:33
application, it's like go outside more and adds
1:07:39
some light bulbs like yours that balance out
1:07:43
that. Understand that we need more of a spectrum
1:07:45
than just the tiny little portion coming out.
1:07:47
Scott Zimmerman: Well, especially with children, because a higher
1:07:50
percentage of their cells are absorbing, are
1:07:53
getting exposed to sunlight, you know, especially
1:07:58
in the near infrared and other areas. But, you
1:08:03
know, I guess what I would like is that you don't
1:08:09
need. I mean, I guess I'll put it this way. I
1:08:13
believe at this point that we have shown there's
1:08:16
enough mechanisms and information out there that
1:08:18
what we're doing now with LEDs is wrong and
1:08:22
harmful. And, you know, is it going to make your
1:08:27
kid die tomorrow or whatever? No, but why spend
1:08:31
all this money on all these other things, but for
1:08:33
some reason, getting a good exposure to your
1:08:37
child outside? You know, I had a really
1:08:40
interesting conversation, just briefly, about a
1:08:43
gentleman who was trying to help battered women
1:08:46
in Chicago, I think it was. And, you know, he
1:08:50
said, you know, women in those conditions are
1:08:54
afraid to go outside, and we need to find ways to
1:08:58
get that kind of. Those are the people in
1:09:02
particular, because it's, you know, that need to
1:09:07
be exposed to sunlight on a regular basis, both
1:09:11
for their physical health and for their
1:09:13
neurological health. So, you know, we were
1:09:16
talking about maybe putting conservatories up on
1:09:18
top of buildings in some of the urban areas or
1:09:20
whatever, planting more trees, things of that
1:09:23
nature, having safe areas where people can just
1:09:26
go and, you know, get a little bit. And from
1:09:30
Glenn's work, you don't have to do it every day.
1:09:34
You can do it on just. It needs to be consistent.
1:09:38
And, you know, like I say, children are the most
1:09:41
susceptible to it. And I think we have a
1:09:44
responsibility to do something about that. I
1:09:47
would ban street lighting the way they've got it
1:09:51
now, but how are you going to convince the
1:09:53
government to do that? I don't know. Anyway,
1:09:56
thank you.
1:09:58
Meredith Oke: Thank you. The streetlights, that would be a
1:10:02
fantastic project. Well, Scott, we'll have to do
1:10:06
this again soon. It's really fun, and you bring
1:10:09
such a helpful perspective and the science and
1:10:13
all of the things. Thank you so much for coming
1:10:16
back. I look forward to our next chat.
1:10:19
Scott Zimmerman: All right. Thank you, Meredith.