Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / Genocide in GAZA, the biggest crime of our time. With Mouin Rabbani

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Genocide in GAZA, the biggest crime of our time. With Mouin Rabbani · The Smart Cookies podcast

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Mouin Rabbani is a researcher, analyst, and commentator
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specializing in Palestinian affairs, the Arab
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-Israeli conflict, and the contemporary Middle
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East. He's the author of the upcoming book, Gaza
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Apocalypse. Mr. Rabbani, welcome to the program.
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It's a pleasure to be with you. Thank you. A
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year and a half ago, I interviewed Norman Finkelstein,
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who during our conversation said that we might
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still be at the beginning of this war. And in
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my completely naive self, I was kind of convinced
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that he must be wrong. Surely... the western
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world with its you know usual moral posturing
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isn't simply going to stand by and watch this
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horrific mass slaughter of civilians for much
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longer and yet here we are two years later with
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almost 70 000 people killed the vast majority
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of course being women and children with over
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90 of homes in gaza obliterated masturbation
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being imposed and with every credible authority
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out there proclaiming that what's happening in
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gaza is a clear case of genocide but despite
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a daily dose of horrific atrocities being streamed
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via our phones there has been no change whatsoever
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the carnage goes on why well the moral posturing
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is exactly as you've described it posturing uh
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not uh not morality um and you know there's long
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been a debate about why the West supports Israel.
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And I think we should start by taking Western
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leaders at their words. You may not agree with
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the German Chancellor Friedrich Merz when he
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says Israel is doing the dirty work for all of
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us. You may not agree with what other Western
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leaders say when they see Israel as a bulwark
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for Western interests in the Middle East and
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as a proxy. for their interests, but that's how
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they see it. And ultimately, I think that's the
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most persuasive reason for their continuing support
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for Israel. A second feature of this relationship
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is that Israel is held to an entirely different
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standard than every other country in the world.
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I mean, no, you know, African or Latin American
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or dictator or Asian autocrat. would ever be
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given the type of blanket impunity that the genocidal
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apartheid regime of israel enjoys i mean you
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know the west is now in the process of actively
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dismantling international legal institutions
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the foundations of international law itself for
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the purpose of preserving Israeli impunity. So
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I think you take these two factors together where
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Western governments, of course not all of them
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because there have been significant changes during
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the past two years, but effectively Washington,
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London, and Brussels have essentially given Israel
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blanket impunity to do what it wants because
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they view an Israeli failure. as their own defeat
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and an Israeli success as a success for their
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interests in continuing their domination of the
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region. Israel isn't the only ally of Western
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powers in the region. There's Qatar, there's
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Saudi Arabia. So what kind of interests are we
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really talking about here? And how can it be
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in the Western powers' interest to just have
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this wholesale slaughter of civilian populations?
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Well, I preface, yes, it's a very good question.
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I preface my previous response by saying, put
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aside for a second what you or I or anyone else
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may think about the logic of this relationship,
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and let's focus on what those engaged in this
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relationship believe. And I don't think they're
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making it up. I do believe that they're genuinely
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convinced. that Israel is a very reliable proxy
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for promoting their interests in the Middle East
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and for their ability to continue dominating
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the Middle East. As you've said, the United States
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also has other partners in the region, has other
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client states, not only Israel. They have most
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of the Arab states. Turkey is a member of NATO
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and so on. And those are seen as part of an alliance
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pattern. And what is important here is that many
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of the key states, like Egypt and Jordan, have
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peace treaties with Israel. Other states, such
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as the Emirates and Morocco, have normalized
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relations with Israel, and yet others, such as
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Qatar and a few others, have informal relations
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with Israel, while Saudi Arabia, the main one
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that doesn't have formal relations with Israel,
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not only already has a web of informal relations
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with Israel, but has made clear that it is prepared
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to normalize relations with Israel under the
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right conditions. So, you know, perhaps this
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traditional way of looking at things, of when
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either has to support Israel or the Arabs is
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entirely wrong. You can have an alliance with
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both the Arabs, or at least most of the Arabs,
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and Israel. The issue becomes the views of the
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Arab peoples, because we're talking here about,
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you know, in Israel you have a genocidal apartheid
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regime that enjoys... at least for the fundaments
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of its policy, the overwhelming support of its
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own population. And in the Arab world, you have
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regimes that are basically viewed as fundamentally
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illegitimate, as not representing the will of
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their citizens, but they're sitting quite firmly
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in the saddle. Israel says its aim is to eliminate
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Hamas, which is obviously just vague and impossible
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enough to keep the war going on. indefinitely.
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What's Netanyahu's real aim in Gaza? Well, I
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think there are multiple aims. Of course, he
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would very much like to eradicate Hamas. Of course,
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he would like to be able to retrieve all the
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remaining Israeli captives from the Gaza Strip.
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But fundamentally, I think he sees the crisis
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that erupted on October 7th as a historic opportunity
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to deal with the Gaza Strip once and for all.
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Just to go back into history, Gaza City is one
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of the world's most ancient cities, but the Gaza
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Strip didn't exist before 1948. If you would
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have said uh gaza strip in 1947 no one would
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have known what you were talking about you wouldn't
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have been able to find it on any map the gaza
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strip emerged as a result of the nakba the palestinian
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catastrophe the mass dispossession and exile
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of palestinians in 1948 and constitutes that
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minor part of the former gaza district which
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did not come under Israeli control. And as a
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result of the Nakba, the population of the Gaza
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Strip more than tripled from 80 ,000 to over
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250 ,000. And from the very beginning, Israel
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was very uncomfortable with this reality of hundreds
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of thousands of destitute, embittered... refugees
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living essentially within spitting distance of
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their former homes and determined to return to
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them. So from the early 1950s, Israel began making
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all kinds of proposals to achieve what it called
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thinning out the population of the Gaza Strip
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and its refugee population in particular. So
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there were all kinds of schemes to relocate.
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Palestinians to the Sinai Peninsula, to Iraq,
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to Libya, to other places. And after 1967, it
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actually began to implement some of these schemes.
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One saw Palestinians being given incentives to
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leave with a one -way ticket to Paraguay in South
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America. Palestinians were exiled to Egypt's
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Sinai Peninsula. which was also under Israeli
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occupation at the time, to the West Bank. And
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a number of housing projects were started within
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the Gaza Strip, and the purpose of which was
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to reduce the population of its eight refugee
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camps and move them out, because from Israel's
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perspective, it was the refugee camps that were
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the most difficult nut to crack, that were the
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hotbed. of uh palestinian irredentism and insurgency
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and and this whole strategy of course fell apart
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in 1987 with the eruption of the first intifada
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when there was a general palestinian uprising
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encompassing every town every village every refugee
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camp every housing project from the northern
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west bank to the southern gaza strip after october
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7th and with the unconditional support of the
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west certainly initially israel saw a historic
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opportunity to solve what it views as the gaza
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strip problem once and for all essentially to
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make it uninhabitable for palestinian life and
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that's why you've seen not only assassinations
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of of hamas leaders and attempts to take out
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its military capacities but the systematic destruction
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of infrastructure of hospitals schools universities
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and so on the systematic destruction of housing
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stock which again you know we're not talking
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about berlin in 1945 where all these homes and
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apartment buildings are being shelled in the
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context of urban combat we're talking about deliberate
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destruction by bulldozers, by explosives, at
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a time when there is neither combat nor even
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a threat of combat conducted for the sole purpose
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of reducing the entire territory to rubble. And
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apparently, you know, the level of destruction
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exceeds anything we've seen in many decades.
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And it's for this purpose that it's being conducted.
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I listened to a lecture you gave recently during
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which you said Israel sees Hamas as a vehicle
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for Palestinian fragmentation. Could you elaborate
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this a bit further? Well, so in 2005, as you
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know, well, it goes actually back farther. Hamas
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first emerged in 1988, and it emerged from the
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bosom of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood,
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played an important role in resisting Zionism
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and then in fomenting elements of the Palestinian
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national movement during the 1940s and before
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1967. After 1967, the Muslim Brotherhood adopted
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a strategy of passivity and of quiescence in
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which its general strategy was one that they
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need to focus on essentially missionary work,
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if you will, the Islamization of Palestinian
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society as a prerequisite of conducting the struggle
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against Israel. And many people saw this basically
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as a pretext, as an excuse to not confront Israel.
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And this attitude by the Muslim Brotherhood was
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very appealing to the Israelis because, of course,
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at the time you had a very vibrant Palestinian
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national movement composed of various nationalists
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and Marxists and other organizations, you know,
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Fatah, the PFLP, the DFLP, the Communist Party,
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and so on, who, with the exception of the Communist
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Party before 1987, were all grouped under the
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umbrella of the Palestine Liberation Organization,
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the PLO. There's quite a lot of evidence from
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the 70s and 80s where the Israelis were actively
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encouraging the Muslim Brotherhood, primarily
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as a tactic of divide and rule. So Muslim Brotherhood
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organizations could get permits because, you
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know, in those days, permits was required for
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virtually everything aside from breathing. They
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had much more success acquiring permits from
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the Israeli military authorities than others.
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And then you had the intifada that erupted in
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1987. By that time, you already had an Islamist
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movement in Palestine named Islamic Jihad. And
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many of its members were, in fact, former Muslim
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Brotherhood members who no longer tolerated the
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Brotherhood's quiescence. under the influence
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of the radical jihadist movements that emerged
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in Egypt and of the Islamic revolution in Iran,
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began preaching and practicing a much more revolutionary
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form of Islamism. So kind of the joint challenge
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of revolutionary Islamism on the one hand, of
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the Intifada on the other, and of the PLO factions
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on the other. put the Muslim Brotherhood in a
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very difficult situation, that if it didn't begin
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to actively participate in the Intifada, it would
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basically lose a lot of members to either Islamic
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Jihad or the nationalist movements or so on.
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And it was in this context that Hamas was established.
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It dates its establishment from December 1987.
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proclaims that it was founded on the first day
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of the Intifada on the 9th of December, 1987.
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But in reality, it was founded in February of
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1988. And during this period, you know, where
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Hamas, in contrast to Islamic Jihad, did not
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join the unified national leadership of the uprising
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and operated kind of its own. its own schedule
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of general strikes and its own communiques and
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so on, you saw Israel often encouraging Hamas
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or putting Hamas slogans on walls in Christian
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towns and so on, again, as a way of divide and
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rule. Now, by the early 90s, the situation had...
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very much reversed because Hamas was gaining
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in strength, was gaining in popularity, was emerging
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as Israel's most serious adversary in the occupied
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territories, and particularly in the Gaza Strip.
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And there you see Israel signing an agreement
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with the PLO, the Oslo agreement, in which the
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two parties had a joint interest in seeing Hamas
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weakened. and cut down to size. Now, after the
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second intifada, Israel once again began to prioritize
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Palestinian division and fragmentation. Of course,
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it had never left, but it became a priority once
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more. So in 2005, you had the Israeli so -called
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disengagement from the Gaza Strip. And this was
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something that Israel refused to negotiate. with
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the Palestinian Authority in the full knowledge
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that in conducting the disengagement in the way
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they did, that it would only be a matter of time
16:54
before Hamas would emerge as a dominant power
16:57
in the Gaza Strip, while the Palestinian Authority
17:00
would be the dominant power in those areas under
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its control, basically the cities in the West
17:08
Bank. Now, there's no love lost between Israel
17:12
and Hamas. And the Palestinian Authority, particularly
17:16
after Mahmoud Abbas replaced Yasser Arafat in
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2004, was very keen to cooperate and collaborate
17:26
with Israel. But nevertheless, from Israel's
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perspective, keeping the occupied territories
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divided, a political geographical schism between
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the West Bank and the Gaza Strip was... more
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in line with its strategic objectives than unification
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of these territories under the leadership of
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a Palestinian authority that was much more attuned
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to Israeli interests. You know, politics makes
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for strange bedfellows. I suppose Hamas knew
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they're being sort of instrumentalized by Netanyahu
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to a certain degree. So why do you think they
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initiated the attack on October 7th? I don't
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think... Hamas's motivations on October 7th were
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significantly related to the issue we've just
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been discussing. Now, having said that, in response
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to your question, the problem with giving a clear
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answer is that Hamas's own statements have not
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really put forward a clear strategic objective
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beyond... conducting the attack itself. In my
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own view, Hamas on the 7th of October 2023 sought
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to irrevocably shatter the status quo to ensure
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that the situation could not return to the unsustainable
18:55
reality that existed not only in the Gaza Strip,
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not only in the occupied territories, but for
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the question of Palestine. as a whole on October
19:07
6. In other words, I think, you know, you can
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look at it as something akin to the joint Egyptian
19:15
-Syrian offensive on the 6th of October, 1973.
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They wanted to basically jolt the region and
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the international system into concluding that
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something has to change and that... Palestinian
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rights, the question of Palestine can no longer
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be ignored and that those who do ignore it do
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so at their peril. Israel is going to be stained
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with these crimes, with genocide forever. Every
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single person I know is absolutely horrified
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at what they're doing. And it's not like we're
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just suddenly going to forget what happened at
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some point in the future. This is one of the
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biggest, if not the biggest, crimes of our times
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um and i'm saying that as somebody who was born
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in yugoslavia a story which didn't end very well
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now i understand that the israeli environment
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and its media landscape it must be a bit of an
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echo chamber i get that but they are connected
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to the internet and pretty much everyone over
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there speaks english this isn't north korea with
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with like one state -sponsored channel and no
20:25
other signal coming in They know what the world
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thinks about this war. So do they just not care
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that the people outside of their borders, including
20:35
most Americans who they rely on, are absolutely
20:38
disgusted by their actions? I mean, how can a
20:42
tiny, objectively insignificant country really
20:45
afford this? I don't get it. Well, there are
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multiple dimensions to that issue. First of all,
20:53
I completely agree with you that Israel will
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never be able to. outlive the Gaza genocide.
20:59
It's kind of like, could you have the retention
21:05
of the white minority regime in South Africa
21:08
without apartheid? After Sharpeville, after Soweto,
21:12
they became organically, intimately connected.
21:16
And the only way to remove this stain was by
21:20
removing the regime. Now, you were asking a question
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specifically, I think, about Israeli public opinion
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rather than about Israeli government policy.
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Well, this operates on multiple levels. I think
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one of the key issues that's often neglected
21:38
is there's an organic relationship between international
21:43
indulgence for Israel and Israeli impunity. So
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at one level, many Israelis, you know, from the
21:52
moment they're born, They know that Israel can
21:56
do whatever it wants and there are never any
21:59
consequences for what it does, least of all for
22:02
what it does towards the Palestinians. I mean,
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you know, for younger people, you have several
22:09
previous onslaughts on the Gaza Strip, zero consequences.
22:14
For somewhat older people, you had the Oslo Accords
22:17
where Israel was expanding settlements around
22:21
the clock. zero consequences, you know, the second
22:26
intifada and so on. So Israelis have by their
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Western sponsors and allies been conditioned
22:36
to believe that they can do whatever they want
22:40
and they will never be confronted with consequences.
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As I was saying earlier, the difference here
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is that Israel is held to an entirely different
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standard than any other uh western proxy in any
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other part of the world no one else would be
22:56
able to get away with um what israel does so
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that's part of that's i think a fundamental part
23:03
of it that people often overlook um uh the organic
23:07
relationship between the impunity extended by
23:11
the west and the ever more extreme policies of
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uh israel which as you know have now reached
23:17
the level of genocide. A second one is this ingrained
23:21
attitude among Israel's Jewish population, constantly
23:25
fed to them by their leadership, that the whole
23:29
world is against us. The world has always been
23:33
anti -Semitic. Everyone hates the Jews. And therefore,
23:38
no matter what we do, They're going to be against
23:41
us, so we should just ignore what they think.
23:44
Of course, if there was even a grain of truth
23:47
to that, Israel wouldn't be receiving the total
23:53
unconditional support of Washington, London,
23:57
and Brussels, and for that matter, particularly
24:01
Berlin, while it is perpetrating this genocide.
24:05
So this whole kind of idea of regardless of what
24:09
we do, the world is going to be against us also
24:12
helps uh helps kind of how should i put it insulate
24:17
them uh from uh from having to deal with reality
24:21
and then there is this idea you know this constant
24:25
narrative of victimhood you know that actually
24:28
it's not the children in gaza but it's the soldiers
24:32
killing them who are the real victims here And
24:36
Israelis are really specialized in whatever you
24:39
confront them with. It's not something they do
24:43
to others. It's something that's done against
24:45
them. They're always the victims. You know, they
24:48
slaughter a family. Well, think of the pain that
24:52
those killing them are forced to endure and so
24:55
on. You know, the Israelis during the first intifada
24:59
used to have this phrase, shooting and crying.
25:04
And now it's more like perpetrating genocide
25:07
and screaming. So they have these kind of psychological
25:13
self -defense mechanisms. But I think you touched
25:18
on a key point is that some people have liked
25:21
to suggest, well, the problem with Israeli public
25:24
opinion is it lives inside a bubble and an echo
25:28
chamber and hasn't properly been exposed to the
25:31
reality. of what their government and what their
25:34
military is doing, whether in the Gaza Strip,
25:37
the West Bank, Lebanon, Syria, or anyone else.
25:40
That's total nonsense, as you rightly point out.
25:44
Every Israeli has an internet connection. You
25:47
don't even need to speak English to be able to
25:49
understand the images. They either see these
25:54
images and respond to them with approval. Or
25:58
they prefer to go to commentators and so on that
26:05
explain to them why this is a good and just and
26:08
righteous thing. Yeah, just before the interview,
26:12
I checked some of the comments in the main Israeli
26:15
news sites like Jerusalem Post and Israeli Times.
26:18
And the most liked comments on the top were always
26:21
somebody saying, oh, we're losing the propaganda
26:24
war. You know, it's not about the conduct in
26:29
the war. It's about losing some sort of a propaganda.
26:32
Because, you know, the message is fundamentally
26:35
correct. We just need to disseminate it in a
26:38
more professional way. By the way, we've already
26:41
talked about the moral impotence of the West
26:43
during this crisis. But why are the Arab countries
26:46
in the region being so... sort of comatose why
26:49
are they tolerating israel's rampage not only
26:51
in palestine but also in syria in lebanon in
26:54
qatar i mean some of these states are not just
26:56
regional powers they're also staunch allies of
26:59
the u .s like you've already said so i'm sure
27:01
they could exert some pressure in washington
27:04
right and yet despite all of that they seem to
27:06
be content to issue like a sternly worded statement
27:10
here or there yes no that's that's a fundamental
27:15
key issue in understanding this genocide. We've
27:18
spoken about the unconditional support extended
27:23
to Israel by the West. The flip side of that
27:26
coin is the limitless tolerance that has been
27:31
shown to Israel by Arab governments. And I think
27:38
there are multiple reasons for this. One is they're
27:42
very close relations. with the United States.
27:46
They're basically U .S. client states. Many believe
27:49
that they depend on Washington for their security
27:55
and even their very survival. There is a whole
27:58
web of relationships now that tie them to Israel
28:03
directly or indirectly. And so they feel unable
28:08
to confront Israel essentially without... um
28:11
hurting themselves but then there are a number
28:14
of other uh factors as well you know many of
28:19
them initially saw this as a conflict between
28:25
Israel and Hamas, just as they saw Israel's invasion
28:30
of Lebanon in 2006 as a conflict between Israel
28:33
and Hezbollah. And in that context, we're quite
28:38
pleased to see Israel administer a drubbing to
28:44
Hamas. And an additional factor is, of course,
28:49
Arab public opinion. views a situation radically
28:53
differently than do their leaders. And in previous
28:58
instances, we have seen Arab leaderships express
29:02
more tolerance, at least for the expression of
29:05
pro -Palestinian sentiment by their own population.
29:09
But I think the past decade of upheaval, what's
29:13
often termed the Arab Spring, although I don't
29:16
like that term, has fundamentally changed things.
29:20
From the view of Arab leaders, you know, they've
29:21
seen a number of their peers literally overthrown
29:25
by massive street demonstrations. And they feel
29:30
that what they need to do is repress any popular
29:36
protest from the moment it emerges to nip it
29:39
in the bud, lest it expand into something that
29:43
goes beyond just expressing solidarity with people.
29:48
in a different territory and turns against the
29:51
leaders themselves. So those, I think, are important
29:56
factors in understanding the reaction of Arab
30:01
leaderships. Now, the other question, of course,
30:04
is, well, OK, that's the leaders. These are autocratic
30:07
states and so on. But why haven't the Arab publics?
30:13
become done more? And there, I think it's a more
30:16
difficult question to answer. You know, many
30:18
of them have, if you look, for example, at Libya,
30:22
at Syria, and so on, many of them are emerging
30:26
from years of brutal and violent conflict that
30:31
has caused mass death and destruction. But then
30:34
you look at Yemen. which has probably suffered
30:37
more than any other Arab territory and people.
30:40
And they're, you know, in Yemen, really the only
30:43
people who continue to actively mobilize and
30:47
act on behalf of the Palestinian people. Having
30:53
said that, all of that, I do think we are beginning
30:57
to see a change of some sort. You know, and I
31:02
think the key turning point was... excuse me,
31:06
first of all, the Israeli -U .S. attack on Iran,
31:09
and particularly more recently, the Israeli bombing
31:12
of Doha. Initially, or all along, Arab governments
31:19
have been quite content to play the role of inert
31:23
spectator while Israel slaughters Palestinians
31:26
within their homeland. You know, it's something
31:29
happening behind... borders and so on. And, you
31:35
know, they may not have liked it. They weren't
31:37
going to do anything about it. And particularly
31:40
under Biden, while I accept your point that Arab
31:47
leaders do have significant leverage in Washington
31:50
if they choose to mobilize it, I think that leverage
31:54
is significantly greater under Trump than it
31:58
was under Biden. I mean, Biden was an ideological
32:01
fanatic who was completely devoted to Israel.
32:06
Trump couldn't care less for Israelis, Palestinians,
32:09
Arabs, or anyone else, and has a much narrower
32:13
perspective and acts primarily out of self -interest
32:19
at the end of the day. But the point I wanted
32:22
to make is, when Trump, in February of this year,
32:27
first put forward his Gaza -Riviera plan, you
32:30
know, Mass expulsion of Palestinians from the
32:32
Gaza Strip, the U .S. takeover of beachfront
32:35
property, building Hotel Kushner, and so on.
32:39
That sent the fear of death into the Arab government,
32:44
because if this had happened, it would have formed
32:49
a direct threat to Arab national security. the
32:55
expulsion of palestinians in 1948 and then subsequently
32:59
taking up arms against israel from jordan from
33:02
syria from lebanon created conflict on the territories
33:07
of those states they understood the exact same
33:11
thing was going to happen they also viewed the
33:15
implementation of this plan as putting a dagger
33:19
in the heart of what remains of their legitimacy
33:22
and therefore creating problems for their domestic
33:26
security and stability and if you saw at the
33:28
time they very publicly and very vocally and
33:33
very categorically rejected this plan you know
33:36
usually we think of these leaders as kind of
33:40
cowards who dare not confront or contradict Trump
33:46
in public. Well, that's true. You know, when
33:48
it came to their core interests, you know, they're
33:50
not going to commit political suicide in the
33:54
service of Jared Kushner's bank balance. So we
33:59
saw that. And then when Israel attacked Iran,
34:05
you know, there's no love lost between the conservative
34:07
Arab monarchies and Iran. But During the first
34:12
Trump administration, when Iran attacked the
34:15
Aramco oil facilities in eastern Saudi Arabia,
34:18
and when the Houthis were sending drones and
34:21
missiles into Saudi Arabia, even the United Arab
34:23
Emirates, the United States did nothing to protect
34:26
them. Whether it was unable, unwilling, or both
34:30
is a different matter, but it didn't defend them.
34:34
And what we saw as a result during the Biden
34:36
years, these governments... began normalizing
34:41
relations, not with Israel, but with Iran. And
34:44
in the case of Saudi Arabia, even normalized
34:46
relations with Iran as a result of Chinese mediation.
34:51
And then after October 2023, they increasingly
34:57
began to see Israel less as a valued security
35:02
and economic partner and more as a regional partner.
35:06
arsonist you know pyromaniac running around the
35:09
region setting the entire region ablaze and the
35:13
attack on doha the israeli bombing of doha in
35:17
which they unsuccessfully sought to assassinate
35:21
the hamas leadership which had been called to
35:23
a meeting to discuss a proposal for a ceasefire
35:30
that had been put forward by the Americans, that
35:33
sent shockwaves through the region because it
35:36
was very clearly understood this could only have
35:40
happened with the U .S. green light. So you effectively
35:44
had the strategic ally of these states authorizing
35:49
another ally to bomb their own territory. Well,
35:53
the deal they have with the U .S. is not that
35:55
the U .S. will defend them from Iran. It is that
35:59
it will defend them from foreign aggression,
36:02
including Israel. And in the case of Israel,
36:04
again, held to an entirely different standard
36:07
than any other state, Israel is given a green
36:12
light by Washington to bomb U .S. client states
36:16
in the Middle East. And it's in that broad context,
36:19
I think, that we need to see the developments
36:22
of the past week. Let's turn our attention to
36:25
Donald Trump for a second. Throughout this war,
36:28
there's been consistent reports of his supposed
36:31
screaming matches with Netanyahu. And I've also
36:34
read that apparently Trump was upset when he
36:36
was being shown pictures of kids starving in
36:38
Gaza. And yet Israel keeps defying and embarrassing
36:41
him on every turn, like you mentioned, with its
36:44
recent strike on Qatar, its ally, which apparently
36:47
they did without even notifying the U .S. That's
36:50
impossible. Okay. Sorry, if I can interrupt.
36:53
No, no, please, please. You know, the largest
36:56
U .S. airbase in the Middle East, if not outside.
37:00
Is in Qatar, yeah. Is in Qatar, in Udeid. And
37:03
it's on constant high alert for the possibility
37:08
of an attack emanating from Iran. coming from
37:12
across the Persian Gulf. And the idea that they
37:15
somehow had all their radars turned off and had
37:18
no idea, you know, if the U .S. had not authorized
37:22
this, Israeli planes would have been shot out
37:25
of the sky like pigeons. There is no way that
37:31
the U .S. did not know about this and as a result
37:36
did not mistake them. for hostile forces and
37:39
allow them to proceed. And any American official
37:44
who tells you otherwise is lying through their
37:48
teeth. It's entirely possible, you know, given
37:51
the chaos of the current administration, I wouldn't
37:54
categorically exclude the possibility that Hegsef
37:59
and Rubio and who else authorized Israel to do
38:03
so without fully informing Trump. Or even that
38:07
together with Israel, they managed to convince
38:11
Trump that this would change the equation in
38:15
the Middle East. But the idea that U .S. forces
38:17
in the Middle East did not know about this and
38:21
also did nothing against it, it defies imagination.
38:26
Okay, fair point. However, this dynamic between
38:29
Trump and Netanyahu is strange, especially...
38:33
in the eyes of the general public, which is important
38:37
to Trump. For somebody as thin -skinned and petty
38:40
as Trump, this forgiving stance is extremely
38:44
unusual, to put it lightly. Furthermore, we all
38:47
know how much the man wants to be praised for
38:50
his so -called peace efforts all the time, which
38:53
makes this entanglement somewhat illogical. Max
38:57
Blumenthal from the Gray Zone has said that that
38:59
his sources close to the White House claim that
39:01
Trump is absolutely terrified of Netanyahu in
39:04
Israel, which would explain a lot. Do you find
39:08
this explanation plausible? You know, I'm not
39:11
going to try to understand Trump's psychology.
39:14
I think that is beyond the capacity of even the
39:21
most dedicated psychological specialist. But
39:27
I would remind you that during the Biden years,
39:31
we also had this pantomime of Biden being outraged
39:36
by Netanyahu yelling and screaming at him and
39:39
then doing nothing. So part of it is pure performance
39:43
and political theater meant to mollify opponents
39:47
of Israeli policy. Sorry to interrupt, but you
39:51
did say that. You did say that Biden was a pro
39:56
-Israeli fanatic, which you also said Trump isn't.
40:00
Yes, yes. But I was making the point about how
40:04
seriously we should take reports of the great
40:07
white father in the White House being very upset
40:11
with the errant son in Tel Aviv and calling him
40:15
to admonish him. You know, we will know it's
40:18
serious when we see change. Let me put it that
40:21
way. I think the more pertinent issue here is
40:24
that Trump, okay, you know, this government is
40:28
a personality cult and Trump sits at its apex.
40:32
That's all true. But it's also a coalition. It's
40:35
a coalition that includes neocons, Christian
40:41
evangelicals, business elites and billionaires,
40:45
but also... a sizable constituency of non -interventionists,
40:51
people who signed on to the MAGA movement in
40:56
significant part because Trump promised them
40:59
no more foreign wars, no more forever wars in
41:03
the Middle East. And not only that, that he would
41:06
be, you know, like Jesus, the great peacemaker.
41:09
And of course, he has achieved none of that since
41:13
assuming office, except, of course, the peace
41:17
treaty between Cambodia and Armenia that he bragged
41:22
about. But that notwithstanding, I think that
41:28
for this element of his constituency, yes, they're
41:31
now increasingly speaking out about Palestine
41:34
and Gaza and so on. But the key turning point
41:37
for them, in my view, was Iran. Because it was
41:40
in Iran that you began to see direct US military
41:45
involvement. in the Middle East in the sense
41:48
of US planes overflying territory and dropping
41:52
bombs and so on. And for many of these people,
41:56
they have this theory that this is not an issue
42:02
of the US using Israel as a proxy, but rather
42:06
that Israel has manipulated the United States
42:09
into fighting Israel's wars in the Middle East.
42:13
And that's why you're now seeing this growing
42:16
debate about Israel, which would have been inconceivable
42:21
previously, even within the MAGA movement. I
42:25
mean, you look at some of these characters like
42:30
Tucker Carlson and so on. They've never uttered
42:34
a critical word about Israel until recently.
42:38
And it's because from their point of view, MAGA
42:42
is America first, not Israel first. So I'm trying
42:47
to remember what your question was so I can actually
42:50
answer it. Yeah, no, I was asking if, like Max
42:54
Blumenthal from the Grey Zone reported that Trump
42:57
is actually kind of scared of Netanyahu, of Mossad
43:01
and so forth. There's a lot of rumors about this.
43:03
Yeah, I'm not in a position to answer that question.
43:07
My sense is that... Trump is also a white supremacist.
43:12
Israel is viewed as part of the West, and Trump's
43:16
instincts are pro -Israeli. Again, not an ideologue
43:22
in the sense that Biden was and so on. But Trump
43:26
is also, US foreign policy is auctioned to the
43:31
highest bidder. And that's why you saw, for example,
43:37
when Trump went to the Gulf on his victory tour
43:40
a few months ago and states he visited announced,
43:45
I think, 75 trillion, billion, whatever investments
43:49
in the U .S. The key thing they wanted from him
43:52
was for the U .S. to lift its sanctions on Syria.
43:57
And they got that. Now, why has Trump flip -flopped
44:05
on Israel? Is it possible that they have something
44:09
on him and so on? I'm not going to categorically
44:12
exclude that. I don't know. But from what I've
44:16
seen of this man, you know, he tends to be easily
44:20
susceptible to the last conversation he's had.
44:23
I think he has been repeatedly promised by the
44:27
Israelis of, you know, one more push and it's
44:31
over if you only support us with this. It'll
44:34
be finished. And then you can bask in our glory
44:37
and so on. And I think with someone, you know,
44:40
as venal, as vain, as narcissistic, as stupefyingly
44:46
ignorant as Trump, it is work time and again.
44:51
In the last couple of weeks, a bunch of countries
44:54
have recognized the Palestinian state, including
44:56
the UK, France, Canada and Australia. Is that
44:59
just a meaningless diplomatic gesture or do you
45:02
think it carries? any actual weight, because
45:04
it doesn't seem to be giving the Israelis any
45:07
pause. Well, I think for those governments, it
45:11
was intended as a meaningless diplomatic gesture,
45:15
but I don't, but it may well turn out to be different.
45:20
Now, a lot of people have said this is a game
45:22
changer. A lot of people have said this is meaningless
45:25
political theater. I disagree with both, and
45:27
I'll tell you why. This isn't the first time
45:31
that Western governments have taken decisions
45:32
that Israel doesn't like. The difference is in
45:35
the past, they have done so in order to strengthen
45:39
relations with Arab states out of exasperation
45:42
with Israeli policy or, you know, other reasons,
45:46
commercial interests, whatever. This is really
45:50
the first time since the Zionist movement emerged
45:54
in the late 19th century that Western governments.
45:58
have taken a position in support of palestinian
46:01
rights primarily because of pressure from their
46:05
own citizens and that i think is a game changer
46:08
because it demonstrates to these people that
46:12
all their campaigning all their activism all
46:15
their speaking out all their organizing is producing
46:20
results and the key question now is what are
46:24
they going to do next Is the dam going to burst?
46:28
Well, if you look at the phenomenal response
46:32
in Europe to Israel's abduction of these hundreds
46:35
of activists on the solidarity, you know, things
46:42
are changing. Things are changing rapidly. Things
46:46
are changing in a way that, frankly, I never
46:50
expected to see in my lifetime. It's really incredible,
46:57
especially in Europe, where if you go back 20,
47:01
30, 40 years, the governments were actually ahead
47:05
of their people in terms of their positions on
47:09
these issues. Now, it's the exact opposite. And
47:13
it's a historic, and as we were discussing earlier,
47:17
I think, irreversible sea change. The big question,
47:21
of course, is... will it achieve results in time
47:25
to save what urgently needs to be saved? So again,
47:32
the test of these recognitions is, will governments
47:38
be able to use this as camouflage to kind of...
47:43
keep people satisfied, continue with business
47:46
as usual, which will ensure there never is an
47:48
end to the occupation or the two -state settlement
47:51
they claim to support? Or is this like holding
47:55
out red meat and is going to lead to even more
48:02
activism that will force these governments to
48:04
take concrete measures? And if that happens,
48:09
I think it will be seen as a significant issue.
48:15
By the way, this just in, but apparently Hamas
48:18
said today that they are ready to negotiate a
48:20
ceasefire based on Trump's so -called 21, I believe,
48:24
points. And did you see Trump's response? I think
48:27
he said that, sorry, if I'm correct, he said
48:29
that Israel should stop any sort of military
48:32
engagement in Gaza. Is that what it was? Yes.
48:37
Should I give the background to what's happened?
48:40
Yes. Okay. So we were discussing earlier the
48:43
Arab states and so on, and their increasing apprehension
48:47
about where the region is headed. And as you
48:53
know, last week on the sidelines of the General
48:56
Assembly, Trump conducted a meeting with a number
49:00
of Arab leaders and leaders of Muslim states,
49:03
Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia, and I think a few
49:07
others. And at this meeting, they basically told
49:11
him, you know, this needs to end. It's causing
49:14
problems for us domestically. It's causing instability
49:16
and so on. And they worked out a 21 -point plan.
49:22
And it was a plan that I think Hamas would not
49:27
have had difficulty accepting, particularly if
49:31
it came under the unified pressure of all these
49:34
governments, on the one hand, and pressure from
49:37
within its domestic constituency, who were understandably
49:40
desperate for anything to end this genocide.
49:47
you know, the good ship Netanyahu sails to the
49:51
United States. Netanyahu meets with Trump, meets
49:55
with Witkoff and Kushner and so on. And the plan
50:00
is substantially revised. It's now a 20 -point
50:03
plan. Any reference to the West Bank is removed.
50:06
It calls for disarmament. all kinds of things
50:12
that Hamas cannot accept without committing suicide.
50:17
And Trump then announced the Netanyahu version
50:21
of the plan. And if you would have listened to
50:24
the press conference, the Netanyahu -Trump press
50:27
conference at which this proposal was announced,
50:31
you would have been very challenged, if you didn't
50:34
know better, to identify... which of the two
50:38
was the Israeli and which is the American, because
50:41
they spoke in exactly the same language, making
50:44
exactly the same points. And I think Netanyahu's
50:49
objective was to craft a proposal that Hamas
50:55
could not accept, and its rejection would then
50:59
basically serve as a justification. by or as
51:05
a pretext by israel to continue and even intensify
51:09
the genocide while maintaining full and unconditional
51:12
u .s and more broadly western support so hamas
51:19
was faced with this proposal that it could neither
51:23
accept nor reject it couldn't accept it because
51:27
it couldn't be accepted without basically committing
51:33
organizational and political suicide. And it
51:37
couldn't reject it because if it did so, you
51:41
know, it would be doing so against the unified
51:44
position of the Arab and Muslim leaders. And
51:49
it would be seen to be callously disregarding
51:53
the desperation of its own constituents who who
51:57
understandably, even if they were very cynical
52:00
about this agreement, were saying, well, even
52:02
if it's only a temporary pause, that's better
52:06
than nothing. So the problem for Hamas was that
52:09
when Netanyahu was allowed by Trump to rewrite
52:13
this agreement, the Arabs who were supposedly,
52:16
speaking of getting very angry, were supposedly
52:18
furious about this, didn't publicly reject it,
52:22
and so left Hamas holding the bag of it being
52:25
the one. who needed to take the decision. So
52:29
its response today was, I thought, very interesting.
52:34
It focused on the issues that mattered most to
52:37
Trump. It said it accepted that element of the
52:41
proposal that called for a comprehensive release
52:44
of all the captives and corpses it holds and
52:48
for an end to the war. And then playing to Trump's
52:51
narcissistic vanity, It also thanked him personally
52:55
for having issued this proposal. And then it
53:01
said, as far as the other elements are concerned,
53:03
those need to be negotiated and clarified. And
53:08
there are other elements that are not within
53:10
Hamas's competence. to judge because they need
53:15
to be governed by either a Palestinian national
53:18
consensus or international law. And for good
53:22
measure, you know, even though Trump was demanding
53:25
an answer by Sunday, they provided their response
53:28
during the Jewish Sabbath to make it more difficult
53:31
for the Israelis to come out with an immediate
53:34
propaganda campaign. So they gave this response.
53:40
did everything but nominate Trump for a Nobel
53:42
Peace Prize to appeal to his vanity. And then
53:49
you saw this contest by Israel on the one hand
53:52
saying, ah, Hamas has rejected the agreement,
53:55
which is, of course, what they dearly wanted.
53:57
And the Arab and Islamic leaders saying, no,
54:01
Hamas has provided enough of a basis. to continue
54:05
negotiations on clarification so that we have
54:08
a proper agreement. And Trump, perhaps in part
54:13
because he's failed in Ukraine, he's now experiencing
54:18
a domestic crisis with the government shutdown,
54:21
and he's a master of diversion and deflection.
54:24
first posted the Hamas response on his social
54:27
media, and then posted a statement of his own
54:30
saying that Hamas has accepted the agreement
54:34
and that he's ordering Israel to immediately
54:37
halt its bombings of the Gaza Strip, and that
54:41
now we have a path towards lasting peace, not
54:44
only in Gaza, but in the Middle East, and in
54:47
fact, the entire universe. You know, typical
54:49
Trump. You know, I'm old and wise enough to know
54:54
that you take anything this man says with a grain
54:58
of salt. And you don't take anything he says
55:02
seriously until you see actual concrete results
55:06
on the ground. And even then, you have to bear
55:09
in mind they can be reversed at any point. I
55:12
mean, we saw this with the Iran nuclear negotiations.
55:15
But so now the question becomes, You know, I
55:21
think Hamas quite intelligently extracted itself
55:25
from a real dilemma. You know, it was between
55:28
a very large rock and a very hard place because
55:31
it was an agreement it could neither accept nor
55:34
reject. It was under tremendous pressure. And
55:37
it has now at least temporarily managed to shift
55:41
the burden to Israel. It's now Israel's move.
55:44
Will Israel defy Trump? They're certainly still
55:47
bombing Gaza. But if Israel continues to defy
55:54
its American master, will Trump, as in the past,
55:58
go along with it? Or will he actually do something
56:03
about it? And that's a question that's going
56:05
to be answered in the coming hours and days.
56:08
Last question. How do you think this... this
56:11
really ends and what happens to palestinian people
56:13
not just in gaza but in in the west bank as well
56:16
like we said on one hand there's rising opposition
56:19
in the west against what israel is doing but
56:23
on the other this regime is as genocidal as ever
56:28
well i mean does it end in the sense that you
56:32
know okay we may see the guns largely fall silent
56:37
and the gaza strip But if we get a Lebanese -style
56:41
ceasefire where, you know, the other side has
56:45
to scrupulously observe it and Israel is free
56:48
to violate it at will, if we see the continuation
56:51
of settlement expansion in the West Bank, if
56:55
we see continued Israeli bombings of Lebanon,
56:59
of Syria, of Yemen, you know, potentially again
57:03
of Iran, as many people are expecting and so
57:06
on, has it ended? Or are we just experiencing
57:12
a constant crisis that is not genocide, but that
57:19
is being caused by a regime that has made war
57:25
its profession, that can no longer exist without
57:29
constant conflict and the expansion? uh of conflict
57:33
um and and ultimately you know that's that's
57:37
the question we have to answer will impunity
57:41
make way for accountability will this unprecedented
57:49
determination across the globe to hold israel
57:54
to the same standard as every other country on
57:58
earth, bear results or not. And once those questions
58:02
are answered, then I'll have an answer for you.
58:05
Thank you so much. I hope we get to do this again
58:08
in much better times once this nightmare is over.
58:12
By the way, when does the book come out? It'll
58:16
be out early next year. All right, perfect. Thanks
58:20
again. Thank you very much. Thank you very much
58:22
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