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GUEST HOST Treating Problematic Sexual Behavior in Youth: A Human-First Approach with Jenny Hughes and Dr. Michael Gomez · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the special guest host series of The Trauma
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Therapist Podcast, where I'm going to be handing over the
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: you in all the while keeping the heart of this
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: podcast alive. So sit back and enjoy.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: All Right, here we go.
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: Five four three two one, Hello, and welcome to The
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: Trauma Therapist Podcast with Guy mcpheerson. I am your guest host,
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: Jenny Hughes. I am a licensed clinical psychologist and founder
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: of the Brave Trauma Therapist Collective, and I am here today.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: I'm so honored to be joined by doctor Michael Gomez.
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: He's a child psychologist. He is affiliated with the National
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: Child Traumatic Stress Network. He's a trauma focused CBTTFCBT trainer,
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: he works with secondary traumatic stress. He does all of
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: the things, and you'll be able to read all of
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: that in his bio. And I'm purposely making him very
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: uncomfortable right now. Thanks for being with us, Gomez, which
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: is how I refer to him, so, Gomez, thank you
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: for being here with us.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Jeddy.
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So we have a really cool topic to talk about,
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: And I'm going to kind of let you just start
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: going because I know that once you like get on
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: the track, you are like a runaway train, and I
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: will interrupt you and ask you questions and be nosey
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: as it comes up. So what are we talking about today?
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: The thing we're talking about, Jenny, is a treatment of
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: problematic sexual behavior in youth. So that means eighteen and under,
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: so high schoolers down to preschoolers, you know, and anything
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: in between. That's our topic for today.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, So how are you, like, how did you get
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: into this work?
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah? So that's a very good question. So the my
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: I'm a trauma person, and I also I'm from the
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: perspective of lived experience, as you know from our interpersonal interactions.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: And so the way I got involved in this if
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: you had told me, like when I started my graduate program,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: then not only are you gonna work with and I
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: actually work primarily with adolescent So I in Oklahoma we
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: have a preschool protocol three four or five school age
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  Speaker 2: like first grade through like six, and then a teenager
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: like me, trying to convince you a six year old
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  Speaker 2: is not a pedophile is a very easy cell. Sixteen
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: is a lot harder. So I focus on the adolescence.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: And so if you told me, not only would I
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: work with them, but I'll train people how to work
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  Speaker 2: with these kids, I would have laughed at you. Honestly.
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  Speaker 2: The way I got into this is I was on
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  Speaker 2: internship at Oklahoma. I was in the middle of my internship,
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: and so I started this in January twenty ten. Oh
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: my god, it was January two. That'll give me a second.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: I just realized how old I am. Give me sorry,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: I'm processing. Okay, I'm back. And so I done a
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: parent Child Interaction therapy at my alma moodic CA. You
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: it's a huge pci T stronghold, and I love the model.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: One of the experiences at OU is pc I T.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: But since I had done it before, I was kind
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: of done in the middle and everyone else was still in,
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of in the middle of theirs. And so
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  Speaker 2: the director of our program, also one of the co
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: creators of the Problematic Sexual Behavior Treatment model for adolescents,
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  Speaker 2: doctor Barbara Bonner, who RANDO you at the time is
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: now retired, called me in her office and she said, hey, Michael,
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  Speaker 2: you work with teens a lot and that's kind of
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: your population we have. We're down in therapist in the
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: adolescent boys group, the PSB group Problematic sexual Behavior. And
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: she said, would you like to come in for the
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: rest of your internship basically like the next rotation? And
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  Speaker 2: I have And I cannot believe, Jenny, I said this
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  Speaker 2: to doctor Barbara Bonner, my mentor. I said, I don't
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  Speaker 2: work with PARPs. Barbara, I cannot believe I said that
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  Speaker 2: to this point. But doctor Bonner, if any you know,
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  Speaker 2: if you have never met her, she had a very
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  Speaker 2: Doctor Bonner applies went, oh, well, give it a try.
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  Speaker 2: And I still remember the first day. By the way,
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  Speaker 2: I did this program for six years ago. I still
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: work a lot with this population, but it's burned into
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  Speaker 2: my gray matter because I did it for so many years.
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  Speaker 2: Staffing in Prep three to four, group four to five
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  Speaker 2: thirty notes updates five thirty to seven. And we're done.
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  Speaker 2: And so the way it's set up again, we have
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  Speaker 2: a preschool, school age, and adolescent. The preschool and school
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  Speaker 2: age are done at our Child Study Center, and adolescent
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  Speaker 2: you have to walk across the street to a place
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  Speaker 2: called Nicholson Towers. Everyone assumes it's a safety issue because
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  Speaker 2: they're teenagers, they're sex offenders. Actually isn't a safety issue.
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  Speaker 2: It's a space issue because with the preschool it maxes
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  Speaker 2: out at maybe like eight families max school age, maybe ten.
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  Speaker 2: For adolescent we can have up to sometimes up to
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  Speaker 2: like twelve to fourteen boys and two separate boys groups
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  Speaker 2: plus a combined part, so that can be eighty bodies.
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  Speaker 2: So we just can't fit that in our child study center.
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  Speaker 2: It's not safety. The way you get there, you cross
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  Speaker 2: the street, you go through the garage, take the elevator
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  Speaker 2: up to the fifth floor, very long, like one hundred
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  Speaker 2: meters hallway, and I still remember that walk, which is
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: walking out of that hall. And here's what I'm thinking.
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  Speaker 2: I'm gonna go be here for a rotation, make Barbera happy,
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  Speaker 2: and then I'm gone because I don't work with purpse.
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  Speaker 2: I'm a child trauma therapist. I have my own sexual
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  Speaker 2: trauma abuse. I have. This is I'm just gonna make
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  Speaker 2: my mentor happy at the box and we're done. And
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  Speaker 2: I was adamant about that. And I still don't remember
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  Speaker 2: what we talked about that first group, Jenny. It was
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  Speaker 2: the youngest guy was thirteen, the oldest was seventeen and
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  Speaker 2: a half. For about ninety minutes. All I could think
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  Speaker 2: about what went through my head was oh my god,
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  Speaker 2: these are kids. These are freaking kids.
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  Speaker 1: Yep.
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  Speaker 2: And now I'm anyone who's listening to this. If you
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  Speaker 2: had the previous reaction that I had, you're not a
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  Speaker 2: bad person. I don't think. I'm not judging you in
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: any way. I had that reaction, I had that for years.
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  Speaker 2: But for me, on my drive home, I felt horrible.
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  Speaker 2: I basically wrote off an entire demographic of children, right,
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  Speaker 2: and he knows how fast I did it. I didn't
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  Speaker 2: even blink. RT exactly, box and throw the box in
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  Speaker 2: the ocean. Who had these are rapists? These are child pedophiles?
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: F a man? Yeah, yep. So I saw them as
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: like monsters, not as children. And what all of our
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: data showing is for thirty years, our data, the National
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Center for Sexual Behavior, you shows that these kids are
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: as different from pedophiles as you are.
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  Speaker 3: Well, And I'm so glad that you're normalizing that reaction too,
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  Speaker 3: because whether we have our own history of sexual trauma
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  Speaker 3: or not, we are socialized in this way to view
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  Speaker 3: anyone who commits something like that as a criminal, as
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: a purp as a bad person, and we remove their humanity.
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  Speaker 3: And then when we have our own human reactions and
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: we judge ourselves, we take away our humanness.
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  Speaker 2: Correct. Yeah, And so I decided to dedicate a chunk
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: of my career to that population. I found it extremely rewarding.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not saying anyone has to do that. That was
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  Speaker 2: my decision. The first question usually get for this population is, well,
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: like these must be like you know, was it like
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: twenty percent recovery which you might see in the adult world.
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  Speaker 2: The program we have at Oklahoma is ninety eight percent effective. Wow,
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: and people, what does.
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  Speaker 3: What does that mean? What does the recovery then look like?
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  Speaker 2: Good question? So we define recidivism so like you go
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  Speaker 2: through our program, you reoffend again sexually. I'm not going
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  Speaker 2: to take a six year old because that's low hanging
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  Speaker 2: for let's take a sixteen year It's take a high
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  Speaker 2: school who is raped somebody. That one seems to me
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  Speaker 2: a little like that's not a straw man. So if
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  Speaker 2: we liberally define a sexual offense, the most liberal definition
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  Speaker 2: we have, like you sex, did you drop your pants
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  Speaker 2: on the bus? The recidivism rate once you finish our
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  Speaker 2: program the preschool is about a twelve week, the school
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  Speaker 2: age is about a twenty and the adolescent is a
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  Speaker 2: year or it's a six month protocol. We want to
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  Speaker 2: give them two doses to be safe. So the recidivism
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  Speaker 2: for the most liberal definition like sexteen is five percent.
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  Speaker 1: Wow.
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  Speaker 2: If we define it only as contact defenses you have
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  Speaker 2: to touch somebody, it's two percent wow. And people usually say, well,
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  Speaker 2: that's extremely drum Now, how does that? How do you
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  Speaker 2: do that? Right?
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  Speaker 3: Exactly?
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: Not being as you know, I'm a very sarcastic person, Jenny,
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: but this next part is not sarcasm, it's not facetiousness.
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you and your audience in less
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: than sixty seconds, how you address problematic sexual behavior in
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  Speaker 2: you eighteen or younger. And I'm not joking. Ready, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: I'm ready. You never treat a problematic sexual behavior. You
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  Speaker 2: treat a problematic sexual behavior. All thirty years of data
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  Speaker 2: we have shows it's not a paraphilia. If you want
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  Speaker 2: to be dsm about it. What it is. It's a
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  Speaker 2: behavior problem. Right, So this this probably applies to you,
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  Speaker 2: but the whoever's listening, I want you to think of
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  Speaker 2: the last kid you saw with this type of problem
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  Speaker 2: that just wants you to think real quick, give you
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: a second. You got them? Was that really the only
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: thing going on?
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  Speaker 1: Right?
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Not at all? Not at all. They had autism, they
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: were like in foster care, they had a dad who
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: was an alcoholic.
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  Speaker 3: They were I mean you literally this is we I
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: just was supervising interns right before this, and we were
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: staffing an intake and it was a nine year old
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: black boy who has autism and was caught in school
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: watching porn on YouTube, which whatever that means, like why
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: can he even access anything like that on a school computer.
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: But yeah, you literally just described him and then his background.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. So it's a behavioral problem. Yeah, and
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: we should treat it, not.
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: A contextual environmental problem exactly.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And you're so so the audience who's listening, and
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: I know this applies to you. Jenny wants you to
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: tick the box. If you have ever worked with caregivers,
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  Speaker 2: you take the box. If you've ever done any type
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: of behavior therapy, However, you don't have to be like
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: a PCI tach or just anything behavioral. And if you
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: know some CBT and if you know just basic child development,
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: you don't have to know like like Kohlberg or anything
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: like that, or Ericson, just like you can't treat a
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: ten year old different like the same as a two.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: If you have all four of those, congratulations, you are
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: now a ps B therapist. So an on a spots
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: shift for the a spiritist out of that feels right
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: right now.
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  Speaker 3: But so what is it like with the parents?
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  Speaker 2: Good question? So when I work with the parents, this
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: is one of the biggest shifts. When my mentor, doctor Bonner,
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: would say, if you work child trauma, you're working with
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: child welfare and sometimes law enforcement. You work with PSB
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  Speaker 2: Problematic Sexual Behavior TREAM, and you're working with law enforcement
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: and sometimes child welfare, So it's kind of so you're
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: in a more legal les kind of and the just
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: like with child trauma, working with any behavioral work, caregiver
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: involvement not only parent but caregiver like foster parent, school
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: staff is mandatory. Now you will get in child trauma world,
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: doctor hughes, why do I got to be here? You'll
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: get that, and it's navigable. But in our world, in
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: PSB world, Doctor's I didn't rape anyone. Why do I
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: have to be in your office? Which is kind of
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: a legitimate question. And to give you an illustration, we
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: had the group we had it for the adolescents was open,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: meaning people are starting and in the different times school
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: and school ags you are closed. They starts the same an.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: So whenever we have a new person in the I
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: did three years boys group, three years parents, we give introductions.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: So like we this guy I did this in take
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: call him Monday Wednesday. He's in our first group ever,
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: and so we're going through, like, all right, start us off.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: My name is Janie. My son is Sebastian. He's a
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: group one. He's here for Ludax. My name is Okay.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: We get to the man and this is the exact
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: words of what he says. I say, all right, so
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: mister Smith, please introduce yourself. Here's what he does.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: Ready.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: My name's John. My son is Billy. He rapes somebody
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: moving on it. So yeah. Second, the last guy he
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: was in month eleven, he was about to do and
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: so he gets he goes, Hi, my name's Craig. My
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: son is Alexander. He's group leader of group two. And
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: he pauses, he looks right at this man. He goes John, Brother,
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: I want to say something to you. I was in
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: the exact same seat you were day one. I said,
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: literally that same seat, And I hated everyone. I hated
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: the state, I hated the courts. I hated doctor Gomez.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: I'm sitting right here like I were cool, But I
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: hated you. I hated that there, He's like. But you
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: know who I hated most. I hated myself because I thought,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: I feel my family is a man and is a
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: father and almost wrong. These people can help you. These
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: people just give me and to me, that's just a
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: well run group. But if you think it's isolating to
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: have a traumatized child, it's isolating to have a sexually
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: acting out child, especially one who's sexually acting out on
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: your child.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: And so it's not a punitive thing that we have
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: caregiver involvement. It's like supportive, just like it would be
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: in the trauma world, but it's on steroids. Yeah. A
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: mentor told me this many years ago when I was
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: a grad student, and to be honest, did not believe
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: it until I was an license psychologist, Jenny, But what
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: she said was caregivers are not the problem, They're the solution.
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: Hmm.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And it applies in trauma, but it applies I
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: think ten times more in this world when you deal
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: with problematic sexual behaviors.
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, healing no matter what a perch you're taking,
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: is happening in relationship. That's also typically where trauma happens, right, Yeah,
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: And so even if it is a car crash and
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: you're all by yourself, there's still are interpersonal things that happen,
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: And especially when it comes to something like sexual trauma,
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: even the kid who is perpetrating that it's an interpersonal
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: trauma for them likely too.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And often what I get asked is like, well,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: since you're do working with PSB, you must work with
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: sexual trauma, which I do, but that's actually not the majority. Statistically,
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: out of one hundred percent of kids who sexually act
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: out six and up, only forty percent have a trauma history.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Most of it's not sexual, by the way. At the
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: same time, if all you did was spend your entire
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: career working with sexual abuse kids who then sexually act out,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: you would be doing an amazing service. Thank you Child
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: advocacy centers, by the way. But another example neglect Actually
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: your kid is a good example. You type in unicorn
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: on this phone. The third HIDS is pornography. Yep, exactly,
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Mom is a drug addict, iPads, a babysitter. They're just
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: social modeling. One that doesn't come up normally, but it
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: makes sense in hindsight is IPv. So doctor Benjamin Siegel
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: over at Arkansas, one of our other PSB trainers and
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: TFCBT trainers, did a study where you looked at sexual
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: modeling and cohersive modeling is predictive of psb's and I
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: hope we can agree never to show kids pornography. If
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: we can, I have to make a call. But if
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: you put them to to toe and again, cohersion modeling
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: in sexual modeling, sexual modeling would be kid walks in
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: on you and your spouse having sex. Sexual cohersive modeling
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: would be kid walks in on your spouse being the
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: piss out of you. And so we put them toe
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: to toe. Cohersive modeling way better predicts problematic sexual behavior
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: than sexual modeling, which I would not have thought of,
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: but it makes sense because rape is not sex. Rape
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: is cohercion, the humanization, and so.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: I kind of have a sense of control in your
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: life and in an experience.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and when I work with like DV shelters. I say,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: you know, you need to screen for this, and they're confused,
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: and I tell them doctor Siegal study and then they
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: say we're gonna do this yesterday. The other group is
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: IDD and we had a kid who was chronologically seventeen.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: He looked thirty. I was like six', one like two
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: point fifty on a good. Day cognitively is about. Seven
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: and take one at his victim's age it was seven.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Ye and then my third group that we see is
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: my favorite, Favorites, jenny my. Favorites it's my, delinquents like your.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Favorites he popped you for THE psb you were. Dealing
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: you were boosting cars. Ritual another effective therapy for, this
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: the one who we have A u is CALLED PSB
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: cbt and IT'S abd like preschool school Age. Adolescent Multi
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: systemic therapy is another very especially for that third. Group
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: it's very effective for, this but they have the same.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: Ethos it's a behavioral. Problem it's a family systems, issue
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: right supervision. Issue it's none none of the effective treatments
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: out there look at these like, paraphilias like pedophilia or
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: things like. That it's just not what we're. Seeing the
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: data's contraindicating.
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: That it's hard, though because especially things like multi systemic,
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: therapy it's so resource, heavy and we are lack the,
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: resources NOT i mean not only just the actual, therapists
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: because therapists are burning the fuck out and they're scared
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: to enter the field because they're not going to be
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: compensated for all of their school and all of their.
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: Education but then there's no there's no wrap around services
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: for the, providers and that's the.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Families, yeah and so so we that's one of the
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: challenges why We, oh you were kind of a cheap,
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: date BECAUSE MSc is really. Priced it's an amazingly good.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Model it's just, yeah it's like the price of a
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: like good sedan essentially per. Kid but it's very. Effective,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: right we work a. Lot if if you know people
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: are wondering, care you're, Saying oklahoma a. Lot how do
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: you get this stuff passed In, Crimson? Oklahoma it's our fearless.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Leader Doctor bonner went to the to the courts and
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: the legislature and, said you can keep sending them to.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: Incarceration you can sit into. Enmpatient, first do you have
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: any open beds in your. STATE i don't think anyone
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: listening to this has any open beds in their. State
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: so or you can send it to an out patient
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: program and if they crap, out you just send them
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: to jail, anyway like you were going. To but this
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: is gonna save you hundreds of thousands of registered voters
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: dollars every. Year and that's HOW i got it rolled
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: out in places like AND i think Like North. Carolina
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: that's an, initiative so this Like california has One washington
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: state and so they're able to roll these out because
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: it's just. Cheaper, yeah it really.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: Is and once people can get past that initial price
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: tag and are able to actually see more of the long,
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: view it makes such, clear perfect. Sense but people get
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: so just like shell shocked by the sticker price that
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: they'll just like dig their heels in and not even go.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: Anywhere, yeah and AGAIN i think that the ANY i
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: Think Scott, handler who developed, them as he has even
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: said The fundamental, movie you can just see it as
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: a behavioral, problem as a family systems, issue and not
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: trying to treat them like they're you, know just born
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: criminals or their psychopaths or their pedophile then then you
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: just changed the Gay just that one, move you, know
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: price tight or not will change the way you interact
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: and the way you're able to get these kids better
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: and the families.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: Reunified so what's the one thing that you want anyone
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: listening to this to take?
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Away so, again that it's a behavior, problem not a sexual.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Problem and the other would be that these kids are
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: very responsive to. Treatment these families are very responsive to,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: treatment even just standard out PATIENT cbt treatment behavior. THERAPY
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: i usually tell people these, Kids i'm not that great a,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: therapist let's be, Honest i'm, okay but these kids may
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: me look. Good they may look amazingly, good LIKE i
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: look like an amazing. Therapy like how'd you fix?
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: It LIKE i.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Didn't they just made sure that the parent didn't give
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: them unlimited internet. Access that's the only THING i. Did
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: and like their pornography, problem like your kid pornography bo
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: mun Solve, like uh, yeah because you didn't give them
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: on limited internet? Access like why did that kid have
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: it pornography? Access how the hell they get? THAT i?
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Know and so, yeah just something that.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: SIMPLE i, also you are an amazing clinician because because
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: you are human in your. Work you are yourself and your,
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: work AND i don't think we get enough permission to do.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: That.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah i've been told by especially my work without the
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: lessons and, transitionings THAT i don't have a therapist. Voice.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah my last kid because he saw. ME i THINK
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: i was doing something with like a, console but he
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: saw me in different areas and he, said you don't
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: have a therapist, Voice AND i, said what do you?
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Mean he, Goes You're they're like, oh and SO i
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: still have this. Kid just to upset. Him every now and,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Then i'll, Say, billy what we're going to do? Today
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: what do you want me to shut?
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Up?
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Billy how are you? Feeling would make you? Feel? Billy and,
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: like just to mess with, THEM i just use that
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: voice because he hates it, though, like, yeah this is
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: just HOW i talk no matter. Where but, yeah BUT
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: i you, KNOW i would say that that humanity is,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: necessary like they need a human being in front of. Them.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: Yep exactly where can people learn more if they have,
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: questions if they want to reach?
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Out SO i will send you a list of some.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Information the first one Is National center For Sexual behavior Of.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Youth the Information i'm talking, about we have FREE pdf
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: copies At safersociety dot. Org the books are Called Taking,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Action one is A, Preteen one is A. Team i'll
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: send you link. There if you want a paper, copy
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: you can pay like four or five, bucks but the
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: PDFs are free. DOWNLOADS. Atsa The socia Shore Or treatment
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: Of Sexual users is very. Good but, honestly the one
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: Thing i'd recommend is if you have any opportunity to
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: GET tfcbt, training because right now it's the only therapy
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: that's evidence based in the ParaView lit for working. With
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: we're working on the teen version right, now AND i
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: work with some studies specifically on, that but the pre
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: teen preteens who have trauma and who sexually act, out
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: it's all we got right, now at least in the.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Literature and so AND i think it gives. You the
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: way we TRAIN psb therapist is we like to train
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: them IN tfcbt first and then DO psb because there's
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of overlap and it's more of a software
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: update than the just a jarring set of information they're.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Getting and what's the best way for people if they
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: want to learn about getting trained IN tfcb.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: TEAM i usually recommend to do the online training for
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: to see if you like. It it's LIKE i think
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: it's like thirty bucks to do, that but then you
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: have access to it forever the band through M usc or,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: no that's, it, OKAY i the link to and if
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: people hate it then then probably don't want to do
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: the rest of. This i'll also send You Brian allen
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: over At Penn state Mom Man brian put we had
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: like literally thirty articles about this and he put them in.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: One so it's like a unified article with here's our,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: algorithm here's what we. Do it's a one stop. Shop
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: thank You brian for doing. That And i'd Say i'd
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: read that article, too because it's VERY psb specific for,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: this but that would be my, advice and it's it's
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: a it's an to me an intuitive. Model it's not
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: not a lot of bells and. Whistles we like to
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: keep it super. Simple.
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: YEP i. Agree, well thank you so much for joining,
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: us for sharing, yourself your humanity and about this topic
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: that we don't no one is really talking. About no
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: one is even if they're doing the, work they're not
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: like broadcasting it far and, wide and So i'm just
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: so grateful for this.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Conversation thank you for having giving me the. Opportunity, jenny
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: it's always a pleasure to talk to.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: You