Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Autism, Dolphins & Horses: A Family’s Journey of Healing and Compassion | EP 40 with Monique Timmermans

Transcript

Autism, Dolphins & Horses: A Family’s Journey of Healing and Compassion | EP 40 with Monique Timmermans · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

0:00
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
0:02
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
0:05
author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
0:08
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
0:12
thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
0:15
I have a request.
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If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
0:22
It really helps us get this work done.
0:24
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
0:27
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
0:31
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
0:35
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
0:40
com.
0:41
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
0:44
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
0:47
Those of us who have family skin in the game you know, everyone
0:52
knows my story with my son.
0:54
Some of you maybe have listened to podcasts with the Berko family in Germany
1:00
and with Helena Helma and in New York.
1:02
And so all of us who are autism parents or parents of kids with, you know, fairly
1:07
extreme special needs have a unique perspective on this equine assisted thing.
1:13
Because we live it, we have no choice.
1:17
We're in it beyond the grave.
1:19
We have to turn our lives over to it completely in a way that is perhaps a
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little different to someone who wants to get into it from a purely professional.
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Or vocational point of view.
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And so for that reason I'm always very excited when I have parents
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and families coming on the show who have this experience and also have
1:42
created a practice, an equine assisted practice from that experience because
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I think we can all absolutely agree that these people are the mentors.
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So I've got a couple of these mentors with us today from the Netherlands.
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And their story with their son Stan, has informed a whole practice in
2:02
a way of life which is now helping people in the Netherlands and
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through this podcast, perhaps beyond.
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So without further ado I'm gonna ask them to introduce themselves
2:13
and we'll take it from there.
2:14
So, who are you guys?
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Monique: I am Monique Teman.
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I am the mother of Stan.
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And we also have another son and another daughter.
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So, that's me.
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Husband: Okay.
2:29
I'm Ian.
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I'm the father of Stan and our other son, GU and our daughter.
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And no, Stan is already now 20 years old.
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Almost,
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Rupert Isaacson: almost,
2:39
Husband: almost,
2:40
Rupert Isaacson: sorry.
2:40
Yes.
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Almost 20.
2:42
Okay.
2:43
And you guys run an equine assisted practice, Monique, I know you
2:47
are the main driver of this.
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Yes.
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Can you tell us a little bit about what you do, and then we're
2:52
gonna go to your story with Stan and how it's led to what you do.
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So tell us about your practice.
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Monique: Yes.
3:00
I have a practice where I do session with people all kind of things.
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And that's where I have the, the, the beautiful colleague
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of ever, and that's my horses.
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Horses tell you everything you can lie to them and they will put a mirror on you,
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but they also can put your system on.
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And then, I mean, a system who can relaxing you, who makes you
3:30
zen, who puts on the nervous far.
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We call about it.
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And that's, that's when it's going to happen.
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And especially people with autism who always are standing on, we, we call it
3:45
they're always beware of what is going to happen, what was see, so all the,
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the how do you call it in, in English?
3:53
The, the, the centering.
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They, they will, they will put it in and they, they don't know a way to put
4:00
it out and to, to getting regulated.
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So, when I have someone with autism and he's standing by
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the horse, it's already there.
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The horse takes the, the, the extension away.
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It's, it's, it's beautiful to see.
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And the moment it's, it's happened that's, the kids are, are the
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people who is, who are standing there, there, they, they, they have
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right away another way of standing.
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They are going to relax.
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They feel their body, they are going out of the brain into the body.
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And that's, that's a beautiful thing.
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So that's what I do.
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And also take the old family and holistic look at the family.
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What is, what is happening with you?
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What's happening with the parents when you have a kid with autism?
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What is happening with the other kids?
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How do, how do they go with that?
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They have a lot to, to, to, to learn about yeah, their brother or sister and things
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they don't want to learn because they also have their, their their own space.
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They need their own space.
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So there's a lot to learn.
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Rupert Isaacson: Do you have the other family members come for the sessions with
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you as well as just the autistic client?
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Monique: Yes.
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Yes I have.
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And then when you have the old system, so the old family, you can
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see what is happening and where the extensions begins and, and what is
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happening, what is happening with dad, and what is happening with mom.
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Mm-hmm.
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And what is happening with the little sister, and why is she afraid, and
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why are we going to scream at each other or what we don't understand?
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And the important thing, I think, is to look at your child with autism.
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What is he telling you without words?
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Look at him, look at his eyes, look at his skin.
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That are kind of things.
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Look at his, his, his fingers.
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How is he putting his fingers on?
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That, that tells you a lot of information.
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You can deal with it.
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Rupert Isaacson: I'm intrigued when you say look at his skin.
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Yes.
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What do you mean by that?
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Monique: When the extension is going too high, they, they are how do you call it?
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Spear ness tension.
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The, the muscle extension, the muscle tension.
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You can see it.
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There are
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Husband: he's making fist.
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He is
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Monique: making fist.
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He is he he is
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Husband: looking for pressure.
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He's look,
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Monique: yeah.
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Yeah.
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Things like that.
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He is, he is.
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Sometimes they put also their hands behind their back to, to, to
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look for the how do you call it?
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The, the, the, the vegetarian line, I call it, right?
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Rupert Isaacson: The, like the pressure on the kidneys and the adrenal glands.
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Monique: I think, yes, yes.
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And to feel where, where am I standing?
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Where, where are my feet?
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Where are my feet?
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Because they need to regular.
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And when they are standing to try to ground on the feets, they are getting
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more space in the brain so that can bring them back into where they really are.
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Rupert Isaacson: This is interesting.
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You know, I absolutely agree with you.
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I, obviously with Horse Boy, we try to involve as many family members
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as we can, partly because for the reasons that you just outlined, but
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also frankly, for selfish reasons.
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I will learn more about your child if the brother and the sister are there,
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because I don't know your kid, you know?
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No.
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And your kid doesn't trust me.
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He doesn't know me and the brother and the sister, they know each other better
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even than the parents know the child.
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So often, the brother or the sister will say to me, oh, when he makes that noise,
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it means this, or, yes, when, you know, don't do this, but make sure you do this.
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This is really good information and I, I won't get it unless
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I have some expert there.
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So I also realize that I need to make my place attractive
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to the brother and the sister.
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Maybe they don't like horses, maybe they like football.
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Mm-hmm.
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Maybe they like martial arts.
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Maybe they do like courses.
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So I have to think about how do I design the session?
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We call them play dates, you know?
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Yeah.
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How do I design the play date for those children?
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And then of course the mother and the father can relax a little
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bit because suddenly they see, oh, all of my children's needs
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are being met in this place.
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Yeah.
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And then perhaps the brother who likes football, and I call my friend
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who's a professional soccer coach and say, Hey, I need you on this one.
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And suddenly he's getting amazing soccer coaching.
9:00
Yeah.
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Because of his brother's autism.
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Yeah.
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And this changes the dynamic a little bit, or maybe the sister she's getting
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riding lessons on really good horses.
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You know, our horses are trained through the Grand Prix, some of them in dressage.
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So we can give her these incredible experiences because
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of her brother's autism.
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And it changes the dynamic, you know?
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I so agree.
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And I, I'm always trying to encourage.
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Practitioners to do this, but of course it can make life more difficult and sometimes
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you get parents who are not so helpful.
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I know, and I'm sure you know this and then you have to work with that, but
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I, but I find that whether they are helpful or not, it's still optimal.
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Yeah.
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If they're all there in terms of the change that we can affect, it's, you know,
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I'm very encouraged to hear you say this.
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I'm also interested in what you said about skin because we noticed
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very early with Rowan, with my son.
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Mm-hmm.
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And then with other children, we saw there was a pattern that right
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before the meltdown, before the tantrum, before the negative thing,
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they would often go very pale.
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Yeah.
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The color would go pale and you would see two little dark spots.
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Under the eyes.
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And eventually we realized this was lack of protein.
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This was a blood sugar crash.
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Monique: Mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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Rupert Isaacson: And that if we could get a little bit of protein into
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them, it was a little bit like putting gasoline back in the brain drink.
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Yeah.
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And now we got to the point where we will always tell the parent or the
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caregiver who's bringing the child, make sure that they, and you have had protein
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30 minutes before you come, because cognitively it will make a difference.
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And it was the skin color change.
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That first alerted us to this, and now I see it in everybody.
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Yeah.
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Including myself.
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Like there are sometimes when I'm like, yeah, and I look at myself
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in the mirror, like, oh shit, I
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Monique: something, where is it?
11:28
Yeah.
11:28
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
11:29
Okay.
11:30
So you have a practice, it's called ini.
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Yes.
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So that's incomp compassion.
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Monique: Yes.
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Rupert Isaacson: Why this word?
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Why compassion?
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Monique: Why compassion?
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I'll tell you when I started to on my, on my practice, I,
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I didn't have know name yet.
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And I have searched and searched and in Latin and in English and,
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and French and, and all kind of languages came through my mind.
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But no, no, no.
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It wasn't, it wasn't until, until, I have to go myself to
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the hospital with emergency.
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And after three days I became home and I was lying on the couch and suddenly the
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name came up in compassion because it was time to look at myself in compassion.
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It was time.
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We have given a lot as, as parents, and it doesn't mind.
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I do it right away, but I don't have to tell you what it's meant to have
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a child with autism, what it costs on the energy and so, and that was the
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moment I thought, yeah, in compassion.
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So that's how I became to this name.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
12:46
So let's dial back now.
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Yeah.
12:49
Monique: Speaking
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Rupert Isaacson: of the experience as a parent,
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Monique: yes.
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Rupert Isaacson: I want both of you to speak on this now.
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Tell me about your journey with Stan.
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Let's start at the beginning.
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Husband: Okay.
13:03
Well, when when Stan was born, it was how do you say it?
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A quick delivery.
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When you say quick conflict, the labor went very fast.
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In, in one hour.
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Every the sun was there.
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Okay.
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I mean, and well, we were very happy of course, because it was our second son
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and right away Monique said directly, there's something special about Sam.
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As a parent your child always is special, but now she said
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it in a, in a different way.
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There's something special about Stan.
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The first two years we didn't notice anything different, but after a few
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years we noticed that he didn't develop as as the other children, especially
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with with spoken words, et cetera.
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And there were several times when there were loud noises or, or other
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things or images, something like that.
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He put his, he covered his ears because yeah, he, he, he
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couldn't yeah, reflect him.
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He didn't know what to do with it.
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Then we went to the doctor and the doctor said we, perhaps he is deaf.
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There's something wrong with his ears.
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So, we went over there, they didn't see anything special and but, but he
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still covered his ears and yeah, he did, still didn't develop as the other kids.
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So after that we went to another doctor.
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He did a lot of tests after that because they suspect that there was something
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wrong in, in they suspect the autism.
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They suspected autism.
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Yes, yes.
14:52
Yeah.
14:53
Yeah.
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And from there on okay, yeah, of course.
14:58
Okay.
14:58
First we were very.
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Monique: Upset.
15:01
Husband: Upset.
15:02
Yeah.
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Monique: Otherwise, we already knew something.
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It, it wasn't not that strange.
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She told us no, because deep inside we knew
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Husband: there's something about someone.
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It could be autism.
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Yeah.
15:15
Yes, it could be autism.
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Then we yeah, very quick.
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We accepted the, the knowledge that that son had autism.
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So from there on we, we just, yeah.
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Put our minds, okay, how can we help son to, to get along with
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his life on a, on a pleasant way.
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So, we, we had a, a special case manager, autism, and she learned us by videos
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we made of stem, how stem reacted.
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In all kinds of, of circumstances and especially how we could well predict
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when STEM was started to screen.
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So we can how do you say that?
16:02
Monique: Regulate him.
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Husband: Yeah.
16:04
Monique: Yeah.
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Bye by going
16:07
Husband: get him back in his, his comfort zone.
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Yes.
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In instead of yeah, sensory processing.
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S
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Rupert Isaacson: So when you got him to his comfort zone?
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Yeah.
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Like bed or so?
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Husband: No,
16:21
Rupert Isaacson: no, no, no.
16:22
What's the comfort zone?
16:25
Husband: No, no, no, no.
16:26
By getting like an, an example out the situation.
16:29
Yeah.
16:29
Out of the situation.
16:30
Okay.
16:31
Change the situation.
16:32
Yeah,
16:33
Monique: yeah, yeah.
16:34
SPR
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Husband: or jump on a trampoline or, or squeeZ.
16:37
Him squeezing him something.
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Something to get into the pressure.
16:40
Yeah.
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Into his body.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
16:42
Okay.
16:43
So change the environment.
16:45
Deep pressure active movement.
16:48
Yes.
16:48
Yes.
16:49
Okay.
16:50
Outside preferably.
16:52
Okay.
16:52
Yeah.
16:52
This was a good, this was a good therapist that you found?
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Yes.
16:57
Unusual.
16:59
She
16:59
Monique: is very good in her job.
17:00
Really?
17:01
Yeah.
17:01
She, she's very good.
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She learns.
17:03
She, she has learned us a
17:05
Rupert Isaacson: lot.
17:06
Do, do you still work with this person?
17:08
Monique: No.
17:09
No.
17:09
She after I think about, she became here three years, I think.
17:15
Three years, yeah.
17:16
After three years.
17:17
And then she really told us.
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You are so good as parents, you don't need me anymore.
17:22
Yeah, you can, you can do it your own.
17:25
And when she was walking through that door, you have something No, don't go.
17:31
I need you.
17:32
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
17:33
But then
17:33
Monique: you are going to do it on your own and you are, and,
17:37
and it's became very well because
17:39
Rupert Isaacson: How old was he during this process this time?
17:42
Monique: It was about four years.
17:44
He was about four years.
17:46
Yeah.
17:46
He was, he was a little, a little one.
17:48
Really?
17:49
Yeah.
17:50
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
17:50
So, so she shows you, the therapist, shows you some good techniques for Yes.
17:56
Yeah.
17:56
Sensory processing for changing the environment, for Yes.
18:00
Giving deep pressure, et cetera, movement.
18:02
Yes.
18:02
What happens next?
18:03
What,
18:05
Monique: What happens next?
18:06
Well,
18:07
Husband: when he was eight, eight years old.
18:10
We heard about yeah, very good results of children who had dolphin therapy in Uraba.
18:18
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
18:19
Husband: Yeah.
18:19
And we knew the man who was well, the arranged everything, yeah, arranged
18:25
Rupert Isaacson: that, that kind of journeys to kids.
18:27
How did you know this man out of interest?
18:32
Monique: He his how do you call it?
18:34
His, his
18:34
Husband: He went to kindergarten and there was a teacher.
18:37
Okay.
18:38
Oh, yes.
18:38
You told us about that.
18:40
That Ah, yeah.
18:41
Yeah.
18:42
And so we made contact and then you, there was they put you on a list.
18:47
You had.
18:48
It's, it's a, it's a foundation where you have to do all, all kinds of things
18:53
to raise money so you can get with yeah.
18:57
With your family.
18:57
With your family to dolphin therapy.
19:00
And
19:00
Rupert Isaacson: they, okay.
19:01
Husband: They pay you the, the, the ticket, eh, to, to fly
19:05
over there and and the therapy.
19:08
They, they, is
19:09
Rupert Isaacson: this, I'm just looking online now.
19:11
Is this the URA Dolphin Therapy and Research Center?
19:15
Yeah.
19:15
Husband: Yes, that's it.
19:16
Say it c say
19:18
Rupert Isaacson: it.
19:18
CDTC.
19:18
CDTC.
19:20
Yeah.
19:20
I've pulled it up on my Google.
19:22
It looks really interesting.
19:24
Okay.
19:24
You raise the money, you go.
19:26
Monique: Yeah.
19:28
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
19:28
And what happens?
19:29
Monique: What happens?
19:30
Well, the first time we went over there, Stan was screaming in front of the plane.
19:37
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
19:38
Monique: Well, my my teeth are rolling.
19:41
And but we went over there and it was, it was amazing what happens over there
19:47
because Stan couldn't still talk.
19:50
We don't have any, the logic with him, he, we, we couldn't, we, we didn't know
19:55
how it, how it, how, how he was feeling when, when he was sad or happy or nothing.
20:00
Right.
20:01
So, over there you have to go two weeks you are over there.
20:06
Yeah.
20:07
And you are swimming with the dolphins five times a week.
20:12
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
20:12
And,
20:12
Monique: Also the other kids, they get a special program to put them
20:17
also in the lights because Yeah, they have to do a lot things.
20:21
They don't want to because they have a brother with autism.
20:25
So then it is also especially for them yeah.
20:29
And for us it was also an eyeopener because you see a lot things happen.
20:35
You, you don't have the time before that because you are always
20:39
busy to, to have your family good and, and get it well done.
20:46
Everything.
20:47
And, and so over there Stan goes to the ducks and they are squeeze them.
20:53
They, they had a lot of send your
20:56
Husband: regulation.
20:56
Regulation.
20:58
Yeah.
20:58
Monique: And then they are going to, practice with him with
21:02
letters from the alphabet and they recognize he was very good while
21:07
Rupert Isaacson: he's with the dolphin.
21:08
Yes.
21:08
Or after he's been with the dolphin?
21:10
No, he was
21:10
Monique: with the dolphin.
21:11
It was on and off.
21:13
He was a little time on the dock.
21:15
Then they are doing a practice with him On the
21:17
Rupert Isaacson: dock.
21:18
Monique: On the dock, yes.
21:19
And then it, it was about a minute or 10, I think.
21:23
And then he gave to swim with the dolphins.
21:27
Yeah.
21:27
And then he swim for 10 minutes and then they are doing a practice again.
21:32
And that was for an hour.
21:34
Rupert Isaacson: So they'd, he'd swim with the dolphin, then they'd
21:36
go onto the dock, work on letters, work on How would they work on
21:41
letters when they were on the dock?
21:47
Monique: Ah,
21:48
Husband: What they, what they did was they showed some a letter.
21:52
Mm.
21:52
They, they pronounced it, how, how do you call that?
21:56
Letter?
21:57
And every time when Stu said it right, the, the dolphin did a trick.
22:04
Oh.
22:04
So they, they stimulated Stu to, to say the right word they,
22:10
and to pronounce it right.
22:12
And he get he got a reward by a trick from the dolphin.
22:17
From Dolphin, dolphin.
22:17
The
22:18
Rupert Isaacson: reward was the dolphin did something cool.
22:20
Yes, yes.
22:22
This is really interesting.
22:22
Always.
22:23
Husband: It almost looked like like, like, like Pavlov.
22:27
If, if you a lot, eh,
22:31
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
22:31
But that's my kind of Pavlov.
22:33
If you're going to, if you're gonna do that with me, then yeah.
22:37
Have a dolphin do something.
22:38
Cool.
22:39
I will probably be motivated.
22:40
Yeah.
22:41
I mean, yeah.
22:42
I've got, can I ask a couple of practical questions?
22:46
I'm, I'm.
22:46
I'm really intrigued.
22:48
So something which I've seen can be tricky when you are working with
22:53
children in the ocean or in water.
22:56
Mm-hmm.
22:57
Is the sensory issue of putting on a wetsuit or putting on a
23:03
flirtation device or something.
23:05
Mm-hmm.
23:05
We used to do autism surf camps in California.
23:10
Mm-hmm.
23:10
We probably would do it again.
23:11
We just got busy with other things and some kids there was no problem at all.
23:17
Other kids, you really, of course, had to work for some time on
23:21
just the wetsuit or something.
23:23
So were there any issues like this with Stan or with other kids that you saw?
23:28
And then of course after that there's the water and then
23:32
there's the big animal itself.
23:34
So can you just talk to me?
23:36
Yeah.
23:36
The sensory issues of.
23:38
Whatever equipment he had to have on his body, the sensory issues
23:43
of the water, and then the sensory slash fear of this big dolphin.
23:49
Like what was, what was, how did it progress for him?
23:55
Monique: Well, the wetsuit there was a little thing because it is, yeah, from,
24:01
from his, his angle till his shoulder.
24:04
It was and but he, he, yeah.
24:07
When he knew I'm going into the water, it seems like it was okay
24:12
because I think that's our lock stand is very good in the water.
24:17
Okay.
24:17
He's a very good swimmer.
24:18
Yeah.
24:19
And he's not afraid of dos.
24:21
He likes it.
24:23
He get a special yeah.
24:25
Vest arm I don't know how you call it, pressure vest.
24:30
The pressure vest that keeps him above the water because otherwise
24:33
he had Oh, a flotation Yeah.
24:35
Device.
24:35
Yeah,
24:36
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
24:36
Monique: yeah, yeah.
24:37
But our son, he would, every time he would like to die with the
24:42
dolphins, when the dolphins, yeah.
24:45
Going to die, he thought okay, I'm going with you.
24:48
But it couldn't because he had that crazy, so,
24:52
Rupert Isaacson: and this, how did he react to that?
24:54
Monique: It, it it goes very well, but he was the lucky man because after a day or
25:01
10 by getting therapy, his therapist told us he may go diving with the dolphins.
25:08
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
25:09
Okay.
25:10
Yeah.
25:10
So the,
25:10
Monique: the thing we said it is okay, but please dive with him because
25:16
he doesn't know anything about.
25:20
How deep the dolphin is going or, yeah.
25:23
So please, and go with him.
25:26
And they have done that, and it was beautiful.
25:30
He was, yeah, he was, he was, yeah.
25:33
Ecstatic.
25:34
It was, it was beautiful.
25:35
Yeah.
25:36
Rupert Isaacson: How long did the sessions with the dolphin last?
25:40
About an hour.
25:42
Husband: Yeah.
25:42
The, the, the whole session was two hours.
25:44
Was two hours, yeah.
25:45
The first hour they were on the docks and doing therapy like, like squeezing
25:51
and, and he had to make puzzles at et cetera that kind of stuff.
25:56
He didn't like that at the first at the first three or four
26:00
times he was screaming a lot.
26:03
But after that he, he well, he recognized that if he did the, the.
26:09
The, the playing and the therapy.
26:11
Right.
26:11
Is reward again, was swimming with the dolphins and that he, he, he liked a lot.
26:18
And the total session was, was two hours, five days a week at the same time.
26:24
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
26:24
Now you told me when we were speaking before I hit record you
26:30
told me that he became really verbal during his time with the Dolphins.
26:36
Can you describe the before, during, and after of that process?
26:45
Husband: Well, I mentioned already he, when when things were difficult
26:50
for Sam, for Sam to understand because it, it, it was well, it, it, yeah,
26:55
just, it was too difficult for him.
26:57
He, he didn't understand what, what they wanted from him or
27:00
what to do or what to see.
27:02
Something like that.
27:04
He can, could only express his, his, his feelings by screaming because
27:10
he, he didn't talk at all after.
27:14
And, and, and my Monique just mentioned how we went to, into
27:18
the plane with a lot of screaming.
27:21
And when we went back, he didn't scream at all because the most important
27:25
thing we've learned over there is when we predict what's going to happen.
27:31
For some it, it, it is, it gives him a lot of rest.
27:36
He feels comfortable, comfortable about knowing what is going to happen.
27:41
That's one of the things we've, we've learned over there.
27:46
We also have learned to, to look at some and go with his with his tempo,
27:52
with his way, his rhythm of living.
27:54
Yeah.
27:56
That, that are the most important things we, we've learned.
27:59
Yes.
27:59
Over there.
28:00
Monique: Yes.
28:00
And, and the, the thing about the, the, the words he, he, he was learning the,
28:06
the, the letters, the words, the we are people who like to talk and we talk a lot,
28:12
but because we think we can, everything arrange with talking, talking, talking.
28:18
But silence is saying much more.
28:21
And that was also with Stan when when we went over there and they saw
28:27
he was doing it very well with his letters and, and that kind of thing.
28:31
And we came home school picked it up also.
28:35
His teacher said, okay, that's very nice to hear.
28:39
We are going further with that.
28:41
We taken that, that kind of therapy.
28:44
Further with him so he can learn words and we call it in Dutch word build.
28:50
And so he had word,
28:51
Rupert Isaacson: image.
28:51
Word?
28:52
Word image.
28:52
Word picture.
28:53
Yeah.
28:53
Monique: And, and because he, he visual, he's, he's very strong.
28:58
And that was his way to learn words and learn the meaning of
29:03
the words, because that was also what makes him uncomfortable.
29:08
Because when we are talking, there are a lot of words.
29:12
He doesn't say anything to him.
29:14
He, he understand, what are you talking about?
29:16
I hear a lot of noise, but I don't know what you are telling
29:20
me or what are you talking about?
29:22
So that, that makes extension a lot, a lot of more and, and, and, yeah.
29:27
So he became to screaming, et cetera, et cetera.
29:31
And when school, yeah.
29:33
Take it over from there.
29:36
Yeah.
29:36
They, they, he makes, he makes, yeah.
29:41
Husband: The screaming.
29:42
Yeah.
29:43
Went away.
29:43
Went
29:44
Monique: when, after a few, yeah.
29:45
Yeah.
29:46
It
29:46
Husband: stopped.
29:46
Totally.
29:47
Yeah.
29:49
Rupert Isaacson: And he, when he came back from the Dolphins, he was able to talk,
29:53
he was able to express his needs and say,
29:57
Hungry Mommy, I'm thirsty.
29:59
Or was it still in the early stages?
30:02
Monique: No, he still doesn't do that.
30:04
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
30:05
Monique: He still doesn't do that.
30:06
It's never when he came back at home then he will go for his drink and
30:13
his candy, but he will never tell us from himself what he has done.
30:19
Never.
30:20
We always have to ask
30:21
Rupert Isaacson: him.
30:22
Okay.
30:23
Monique: Yeah.
30:23
He will never.
30:24
Rupert Isaacson: When, can you describe how he is verbal now?
30:28
Like how you, how he would talk to you?
30:31
Monique: Well, we recognize that his meaning is, is a lot bigger of words.
30:36
So he can in that way explain what, what you want.
30:40
That is, that is going very well.
30:43
And that's his progress he made.
30:46
Rupert Isaacson: Can you give me an example?
30:49
Husband: Well,
30:50
Monique: yeah.
30:51
Husband: First of all in the beginning when we asked him how was school,
30:55
it was good and nothing more.
30:57
Rupert Isaacson: That sounds like many kids.
30:58
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:01
Husband: It was like, I know.
31:05
But when you asked what have you, what what have you done on
31:08
school have you done at school?
31:11
He didn't say anything, but now he he tells us in in, in a few words,
31:18
i, I have I have swing, I have puzzled, I have been with the animals.
31:23
So yeah, that kind of of words.
31:28
He used to tell us what he what his day was, what his
31:33
day was what his day like was.
31:35
Mm-hmm.
31:35
Yeah.
31:37
Rupert Isaacson: And okay.
31:37
So you, when he came back from URA South the first time, 'cause
31:42
I know you went two times.
31:44
Yes.
31:44
What would you say, how was he speaking after that first trip?
31:52
How was he using words?
31:54
Monique: Very functional.
31:56
Yeah.
31:56
Stan is a boy who was very functional.
31:59
So he get his, his things he needs
32:03
Husband: by drinking, by, yes, by food, by,
32:07
Rupert Isaacson: playing.
32:08
So would he say, would he ask for things or how was he expressing himself?
32:14
Yes.
32:15
Monique: Well, that became so about the years.
32:18
He, he he's going to to do that a lot more.
32:21
When he don't want anything or he don't want to tell us anything more, then he,
32:28
he, he said to ans to us, no, not anymore.
32:34
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
32:34
Monique: So that's, that's something he has learned.
32:37
When I don't want anything anymore, I have to tell them.
32:41
Rupert Isaacson: And this began after Carissa?
32:42
Yes.
32:43
Monique: And yes.
32:43
Yes, yes, yes.
32:45
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
32:45
This is really interesting.
32:47
I often when I'm giving people trainings, I tell them, you must
32:52
value negative communication as highly as positive communication.
32:57
Yeah.
32:58
Because when you're dealing with somebody who's nonverbal, if they tell you what
33:02
they don't like and what they don't want, this is massive progress, you know?
33:07
Yeah.
33:10
Please tell me what else you don't want to do.
33:12
And of course, in normal parenting, this is regarded as you know, a real
33:17
problem when the kids are negative and they, but of course, from our point
33:20
of view, often things happen that way.
33:23
First.
33:25
No, I don't want, and I suppose in a way it is the same with neurotypical IE normal
33:32
kids, they usually actually start with no.
33:37
Yeah.
33:37
At two years old, you know, now and then from, that's the first self-advocacy.
33:45
So you saw that after Issa the first time?
33:49
Yes.
33:49
Yes.
33:49
You went back again, how long between the two, was it the next year, three years?
33:57
Three years.
33:57
Three years?
33:58
Why, why three years?
34:00
And tell me what happened on the second trip.
34:05
Monique: Well, he did it very good at school and you have
34:09
also the time to make that, that money you needed to go out there.
34:14
Okay.
34:14
So, you are when you went out there, you going beneath or do you call it?
34:20
At last on the, on the, on the, on the list?
34:23
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
34:23
Okay.
34:24
You
34:24
Monique: start all over again to
34:26
Rupert Isaacson: get on top.
34:26
To
34:26
Monique: get on top,
34:27
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
34:28
Oh, I see.
34:28
There's a list.
34:29
Monique: Yes, yes, yes.
34:31
There's a list.
34:32
And so you have to do things to, to get your money again, to go over there.
34:37
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
34:38
Monique: So, that's why.
34:39
And then when when it is already there and you can go to Cura South,
34:44
then also has to be there some place
34:49
to go.
34:50
So, that's why the three years.
34:52
Got it.
34:54
Yes.
34:55
Yes.
34:56
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34:58
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35:02
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Okay.
36:40
So tell me what happened on that second trip.
36:43
Monique: Well, we had still a little thing because Stan still
36:47
wearing diapers at that age.
36:50
At that age
36:52
Rupert Isaacson: he would be by then 12.
36:53
Yeah, 11.
36:54
Yeah, 11.
36:55
Monique: Yeah.
36:56
Yeah.
36:56
So that was our next thing.
36:59
We, that
37:00
Husband: that was our main goal.
37:01
Monique: Goal, yeah.
37:03
Yeah.
37:03
And well, it, it also went very well, not directly.
37:08
Because when we went over there, they have done a lot of other things instead
37:16
of wearing the di the, the diaper and, and doing something about that.
37:21
It's actually almost the same when I am working with my horses.
37:26
It's, it's in the moment what, what, what tells the horse what to do.
37:31
So, and it was also with the dolphins.
37:34
So the second time yeah.
37:36
What, what had they do?
37:37
They, they, they make him,
37:39
Husband: especially, they learn how Yeah.
37:41
To, to wait.
37:43
Yeah.
37:43
And to get the patience about things he want or or otherwise
37:49
things we have to do first.
37:51
Before we can help or we can do things with some That's the, the, the, yeah.
37:58
Most important thing.
37:59
They have learned him to wait and they also have, have learned us to because
38:06
we always had the focus on some, but we also have two other children
38:11
and they also need our attention.
38:14
But when we were doing something with the other children and we saw
38:19
that Stu was asking for us, or, or he was was was high in his yeah.
38:27
In extension.
38:28
Yeah, in extension.
38:30
Then we sort automatically went to Stu to help him, and they say that's not, well,
38:39
not quite fair to the other children.
38:41
So we have learned to say Tostan, no stem.
38:46
Monique: Not now what?
38:47
Husband: Not now.
38:48
You have to wait for a moment, but after this we come to you.
38:53
Yeah.
38:54
And that also went with as, as Stum asked for, can I get some candy?
39:00
We said and it also was almost dinner time, something like that.
39:03
Then we said to stone, no stone, you can't have candy, but you can
39:08
get a banana or something like that, something else instead.
39:12
So we learned to, to bend things that weren't quite right for
39:18
stone into group things and Yeah.
39:22
Monique: Yeah.
39:22
And patience.
39:23
And patience.
39:24
Yeah.
39:25
And he learned quite well.
39:28
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
39:28
So, but did the toilet training with the diapers advance during the second trip?
39:36
Monique: No.
39:37
Well, no.
39:38
That's not quite right.
39:40
It became better when we went home.
39:42
And after that he only had it by nights.
39:46
Yeah.
39:47
Okay.
39:47
He was wearing a diaper, so that went very well.
39:50
And I think about when he was, I think 13.
39:54
Yeah, something like that.
39:55
He didn't wear it at all.
39:57
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
39:57
Tell me, finish
39:58
Monique: with it.
39:59
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
40:00
Monique: Yeah.
40:01
Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm interested to know what did they do in Issa
40:06
to target the toilet training, but
40:10
Monique: actually nothing because they have other targets with him.
40:13
Rupert Isaacson: So why do you think it changed to only
40:17
nights after that second trip?
40:19
Monique: Well, we think that because he became to learn better how, how his, how
40:26
his body was working and how his tension.
40:31
He could regular it on better ways he gets space in his mind.
40:36
And so he get also a signal I have to go to the bathroom.
40:40
Yeah.
40:41
And that was and that, that was also what we have learned from, from
40:45
Charles with, with with autism that they don't get a single right away.
40:50
And and that was with, with Stan, he he get a sign, I, I have to sign on
40:56
the, on the single, and I, I, I have, I have to go to the bathroom and yeah.
41:01
From, from from, yeah.
41:03
The, the, yeah.
41:05
Well,
41:06
Husband: the, the most important lesson we've learned, and that's
41:08
with a lot of things with Stu.
41:11
Stu does things when he is ready, ready
41:13
Monique: for it.
41:14
Yeah.
41:14
Husband: You can't push things.
41:17
To, to get it, to get it done.
41:19
Because if he isn't ready in his mind and in his body you don't get resolved.
41:27
So you have to recognize when he's ready to, to learn something, to
41:32
accept something, to do something,
41:34
Rupert Isaacson: you know,
41:37
listening to the story.
41:38
I can also imagine some things happening in his brain during this time
41:45
with the dolphins because you going somewhere very new, very different.
41:49
I very be surprising in a good way.
41:55
Yeah.
41:56
Magical, you know, this time with dolphins and of course what happens
42:00
and a lot of movement involved and a lot of natural sensory stuff.
42:04
You're in water, you're with the big animal, you are, you've got the,
42:09
sensory, comfort of the deep pressure of the person in the water with you.
42:14
All of these things.
42:15
And with this comes a neurological reaction.
42:22
Yeah, accelerated, which we would call neuroplasticity, but specifically
42:28
the production of a protein in the brain, which happens whenever
42:32
you do something new basically.
42:35
Particularly if it's physical moving and problem solving effectively.
42:40
And that's a protein with a, its name is four letters, BDNF, brain
42:48
derived neurotrophic factor.
42:51
When you do something with what one calls novel movement, let's
42:57
say you sit on a horse, let's say you're going in the water.
43:00
Let's say you run across.
43:02
A field.
43:03
Yeah.
43:04
It's very different running across a field to running on a playground
43:09
because on the playground you don't need to think too much.
43:11
Where do my feet go?
43:13
On the field, you must think because if you put your foot in the
43:17
wrong place, you fall over because there's a little hole or something.
43:20
So your mind has to be more active.
43:22
You go with the dolphin, you go with the horse.
43:24
This effect is amplified.
43:27
And so you get incredible amounts of neuroplasticity, of brain development
43:33
in these types of situation.
43:35
And then of course, this could be very scary, which would shut
43:41
down the brain development.
43:42
But of course he's there with the family.
43:44
He's there with all this love.
43:46
He's there.
43:47
There's I'm sure all kinds of.
43:51
Heart resonance coming from the dolphin, which has a very big heart
43:56
throwing off an electromagnetic field.
43:58
Yeah.
43:59
Yes, indeed.
44:00
It's very big.
44:01
And of course the dolphin being this hyper intelligent com, you know,
44:06
social compassionate animal is doing all kinds of work with him on a level
44:12
that we can't even probably see.
44:14
You put all this together, I can see how he could come back from
44:20
that experience, able to regulate his toileting, for example, because
44:27
of the, the brain development.
44:29
Okay, so we've talked about dolphins and this is wonderful, and actually I'm
44:32
going to have these guys on the show.
44:34
I'm going to reach out to them, even though it's not equine, it's still,
44:39
you know, large animals and nature.
44:42
Yeah.
44:42
We need to talk to these people.
44:43
Clearly they will have things that we can learn from, but let's go to horses now.
44:49
So, Monique, you are a horse woman?
44:51
Yes.
44:51
Were you always a horse woman?
44:53
Yes.
44:54
Monique: Grew up with
44:55
Rupert Isaacson: it.
44:55
I'm nearly
44:56
Monique: born in the unstable.
44:58
Okay, okay.
44:59
Yeah.
45:00
Rupert Isaacson: So since you were a kid, horses.
45:02
Horses, right?
45:03
Yes.
45:04
And were you having horses, owning horses while Stan was in
45:11
his early years of development?
45:14
Yes.
45:14
And what was Stan's involvement or interaction with these horses?
45:20
Monique: Yes.
45:20
We've always had horses and when we get this, this house where we are living now
45:26
I have my horses standing by our house.
45:29
They were first standing with my parents, but then they moved to us.
45:35
Okay.
45:35
And yeah.
45:35
Stu and animals are just one.
45:39
That's okay.
45:40
If it is a prock a dog, a cat, a horse, never.
45:44
Mines where animals are there is stem and with a horse.
45:49
We had a pony called Oscar, and Oscar is a lovely horse.
45:55
And what he did, he had a very big buckets and he put it behind
46:00
the top there, you call it.
46:01
Yeah.
46:02
And he was standing on.
46:04
And he was for an hour busy with a horse to go on the back of the horse.
46:10
Rupert Isaacson: So he used the bucket to climb on top?
46:12
Monique: Yes, yes.
46:13
But the horse fought then.
46:15
Oh no.
46:16
Oh no.
46:16
Ride it there.
46:17
That's, that's, that's better food.
46:19
So I'm going to walk over there.
46:21
And Stan was then taking the bucket with him, put it on
46:24
the ground again, stand on it.
46:26
And so he was for an hour busy with this horse.
46:29
It was lovely to see.
46:31
And when he sat on his back, he was enjoying it.
46:34
He was just sitting there, just look over what, what, what kind of birds
46:39
was were, were, were flying in the air.
46:42
What he saw, what he was feeling like what, and he Yeah, he was, he
46:47
was really zen when he was with the
46:49
Rupert Isaacson: horse.
46:50
And how long this, and, sorry.
46:53
Okay.
46:54
At this point, you are not running in capacity.
46:57
You don't have a practice?
46:58
No.
46:59
No.
47:00
What do you do you doing for a living?
47:01
Are you just busy being a mom because you have three kids and a special needs kid?
47:05
Are you Yes.
47:06
Trying to do a job.
47:08
Monique: Yes.
47:08
I had a job.
47:09
I had a job.
47:11
But when we knew it was a very busy Trix, we call it, I think.
47:17
Yeah.
47:17
Therapy with our family, yeah.
47:19
It was very stressful.
47:22
Also for us.
47:23
My husband just became his own office and our daughter was very little.
47:29
And I thought, no, no.
47:31
Working by job elsewhere, it's, it's not gonna bring us that, that we need it.
47:37
Yeah.
47:37
So, I stopped my job.
47:40
I was working also on the office and I was full-time mom.
47:45
I liked it, but most of all, I think our family became in,
47:50
in another, another dimension.
47:53
We, we get spaces.
47:55
We, we, yeah, there was, there was, yeah, we, we, it was
47:58
Rupert Isaacson: time.
47:59
Yeah, time.
47:59
Yeah.
47:59
Yeah.
48:00
We
48:00
Monique: get another energy in our house.
48:02
So, and that was very, very nice.
48:05
And I did some other college because I don't want to sit, just sit being a mom.
48:12
I also want to develop so, I did how do you call it?
48:16
Yeah.
48:17
Yeah, I did some developing college skills, champion, develop and, and,
48:22
so, and then I thought, yeah, yeah, but I have horses and I have the
48:28
experience of our son, and when I put it in a big bucket and I'm going
48:35
to do something about that, maybe something beautiful is going to happen.
48:40
And so, my practice in Compe came and I thought there is when I see my
48:47
own experience, what my bosses bring me in times that weren't that nice.
48:54
I thought, yeah, yeah, I would like to give other ones also this.
48:58
I, I, I think, I really think with all the experience I have, we have, we can
49:06
learn other parents how you can deal with a child like Stu who has autism.
49:13
There is.
49:15
Such a lot to learn in our for example, temple Grandin, you know,
49:20
where it was, it was our inspiration.
49:23
And I've put it also in, in our blog from Ura Sao, what she brings us.
49:30
And always she is, she is coming in my mind when I, when I have it
49:37
a little bit difficult for myself, then I think of Temple Grandin.
49:41
When you are throwing the other door open, then go for it because
49:46
there are other things you can see.
49:50
And, and yeah, it brings us a lot.
49:52
And also in my practice with the horses, because that's the other door, the,
49:59
the, the horses they are just there.
50:02
And when you are in the neighborhoods of horses, it'll just started.
50:08
It starts to brings you yeah.
50:10
Such, such more, I don't, I don't know.
50:14
I, how can I, yeah.
50:15
I always, yeah,
50:16
Rupert Isaacson: sure.
50:16
I mean, you're preaching to the converted here because we all
50:19
Monique: Yeah, yeah.
50:20
Everyone
50:20
Rupert Isaacson: listening to this show, we, we know the
50:22
value of the horse in Yeah.
50:24
Various ways.
50:24
And what they bring a question though.
50:27
How old was Stan when you started your income capacity practice?
50:32
Monique: Well, I have now my practice for only three years.
50:36
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
50:37
Yeah.
50:37
So you had to develop a lot of time for him.
50:40
Yes.
50:40
So by the time he was sort of in his late teens Yeah.
50:44
Yes.
50:44
You, to turn your attention Yes.
50:46
To saying, how do I help other families?
50:49
Yes.
50:49
Got it.
50:50
Okay.
50:51
So I'd like to talk a little bit about how you run your practice,
50:55
but before that, everyone will want to know how is Stan doing now?
50:58
Where is he at?
50:59
You know, and, and just for, the listeners and viewers,
51:03
Stan does not just have autism.
51:05
He also does have an inter a diagnosed intellectual disability
51:10
in parallel with the autism.
51:12
Yeah.
51:12
So, one's expectations and so on must be to some degree directed by this,
51:19
but just so that people understand the this neurological geography of, of Yes.
51:26
So, so, so tell us, you know, where is Stan now?
51:28
What's his life?
51:29
What's his day?
51:31
What's, yeah.
51:32
And then let's get to encompassing.
51:35
Monique: Yes.
51:36
Well, he is going for now for five days a week to how do you, how do we call that
51:41
earlier special daycare, special daycare.
51:44
Yeah, something like that.
51:45
Their
51:46
Rupert Isaacson: services sort of thing.
51:47
Yeah,
51:47
Monique: yeah, yeah.
51:47
Where he can also go to animals.
51:51
Yeah.
51:51
And he is a very he's in a, in a very active group with the other
51:55
Husband: yeah, they're working a lot.
51:57
Yeah.
51:57
Monique: They're,
51:58
Husband: they're, they're swinging.
51:59
They're, they're, they, they're constantly busy with him.
52:05
You
52:06
Rupert Isaacson: told before in a certain way.
52:07
He's in, they're in nature a lot.
52:08
What do they do in nature?
52:11
Monique: Yes, they are going riding with car and horses.
52:14
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
52:14
So he's 49
52:15
Monique: and then they go into the forest.
52:17
Yeah.
52:18
He likes that a lot.
52:19
He also goes to they have a donkey.
52:22
They have chicken they have
52:24
Rupert Isaacson: at the daycare.
52:25
Is it like a castle?
52:27
Is it what you would call a care farm?
52:29
Monique: Kind of that, kind of that, but they also have
52:32
a lot of sports they can do.
52:34
Okay.
52:34
All they light.
52:35
Yeah.
52:35
So, there are, who goes to the gym?
52:38
There are they, they going swimming?
52:40
They are, they go for a long walk.
52:42
Some they are going to, to do some shopping in the village.
52:46
They also, so they have to go for a walk.
52:49
And when he is busy with his buddy.
52:52
Buddy, yeah.
52:53
Yeah.
52:53
Then, then his mind's getting, getting the opportunity to, to learn to develop.
52:58
So that's very beautiful to see.
53:00
And
53:00
Rupert Isaacson: what is he learning?
53:02
Monique: Well, we are we are recognized that, that he is giving much more meaning
53:07
to words and he can explain things better.
53:12
And he is happier on his way.
53:15
It, it, it doesn't.
53:18
Custom.
53:18
Yeah.
53:20
Husband: And he takes initiative to, to tell something.
53:23
Yeah.
53:24
What, what has happened that day?
53:26
What he has seen.
53:27
He wants to tell us things.
53:30
Yeah.
53:30
He wants to tell us.
53:31
Yeah.
53:31
But he
53:31
Monique: also we had a couple of weeks ago it was a holiday
53:37
and we should went to the sea.
53:40
To the beach.
53:41
Yeah.
53:41
To the beach.
53:41
Yeah.
53:41
And the big beach he call it.
53:45
And so I told him, okay, and, and what do we need?
53:49
And he begin to talk.
53:51
I, I thought, no, no, you can write.
53:55
I told him, here, take a pen.
53:57
Take a pencil and a paper and put it on the paper.
54:01
And so he did.
54:02
And so he began to write it down what we had to need for that day.
54:07
Mm-hmm.
54:07
Husband: Yeah.
54:07
Wow.
54:08
Wonderful.
54:08
He made a, he made a list of about six or seven things he, he went
54:12
to get with him to the beach.
54:14
Yes.
54:14
But
54:14
Monique: in a way that he was also happy.
54:18
It wasn't, it, it, he was happy to do it.
54:22
And that's what we recognize what he is doing now.
54:26
It doesn't, it doesn't take that much energy of him.
54:29
He likes to do it because he can, and a couple of years ago it, he can't.
54:36
Yeah, because, because he couldn't do it.
54:37
No, because he, he did, he,
54:39
Husband: it always looked like he was under pressure to do, to do it something.
54:43
Rupert Isaacson: Right, right.
54:44
Not spontaneous.
54:45
Yeah.
54:45
Quite understand.
54:46
Husband: Yeah.
54:48
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
54:48
Yes.
54:49
Wonderful.
54:50
Okay.
54:50
And he's still obviously involved in animals in nature.
54:53
And then when he's at home with you, while there's horses around, there's Yes.
54:59
Yes.
54:59
We have
54:59
Monique: two dogs.
55:00
We have two cats.
55:02
Yeah.
55:02
So he's always always into dogs.
55:04
Yeah.
55:04
Rupert Isaacson: Tell me about his interaction with the dogs.
55:08
Monique: Well, he has one particularly that's it's, it's a Labrador
55:13
and that's really his buddy.
55:15
Yeah.
55:15
When he's coming home he is taking some time after the computer.
55:20
Then we are going for a eat, and then he is going to take the dog for a walk.
55:25
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
55:25
Monique: And also with the horses when they are going somewhere,
55:30
they are one, they are really one where the darkest is Stu.
55:33
And where Stu is, is the dark and everyone in the neighborhood knows it.
55:37
And yeah, he's doing very well with it.
55:41
Husband: Completely on his own.
55:42
On his own for about an hour or an hour and a half.
55:46
He's, he's gone with the dogs in, in nature and then Yes.
55:50
And he
55:50
Monique: has he gets a GPS on it
55:54
Rupert Isaacson: so we know
55:55
Monique: Yeah.
55:55
A tracker.
55:55
So we know where he is.
55:58
Rupert Isaacson: And also the dog always knows the way home, presumably.
56:01
Yes,
56:02
Monique: yes.
56:02
Yeah, yeah.
56:03
With ice closed.
56:04
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
56:05
Monique: Yeah.
56:06
Rupert Isaacson: I remember when with my son Ron, when he was first
56:08
coming to visit us in Germany.
56:10
He loves to be given challenges, so I would give him challenge.
56:14
Okay.
56:14
I I'm gonna drop you there in the car.
56:17
On the top of that mountain with the dog, and you are gonna find your way home.
56:21
You can GPS it, but the dog is gonna say it.
56:25
None of it.
56:27
Yeah.
56:27
You, you, you can just, yeah.
56:29
Yeah.
56:30
Wonderful.
56:30
Yeah.
56:31
And it really worked.
56:32
It, it's, it's very beautiful to see how each type of animal really does bring
56:37
out a different aspect of the human.
56:41
And it's, it's something which I'm often encouraging our equine
56:46
practitioners to think beyond the horse.
56:50
You know, horses, they're fantastic.
56:52
They do all these amazing things, but don't limit yourself because what if this
57:00
person is not so motivated by the horse?
57:03
Or maybe they were motivated by the horse, but for some reason now they
57:07
lose that enthusiasm a little bit.
57:09
My own son, for example, he's gone in and out of horses.
57:13
Over his life, and sometimes he's really into the horse and sometimes, ah, it's
57:17
not so much, and I must go with this.
57:21
Monique: Yeah.
57:21
Mm-hmm.
57:22
Yeah, I need
57:22
Rupert Isaacson: more than that.
57:25
Monique: Yeah.
57:25
Rupert Isaacson: So as you know, we work with all kinds of animals and
57:29
nature but sometimes horse people can be a little bit autistic themselves
57:34
and it's just very horse, you know.
57:36
I am similar, you know, if you leave me to myself, I'm just horse, horse,
57:42
horse, horse, horse, horse, horse.
57:43
But I, I realize that there are some limitations.
57:47
No thanks.
57:49
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
57:54
you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system.
58:00
of dressage training.
58:01
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
58:10
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
58:16
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
58:23
well being of the horse and the rider.
58:26
Intrigued?
58:27
Like to know more?
58:28
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
58:33
Check out the free introduction course.
58:35
Take it from there.
58:36
Okay, so Stan is doing really well, and now you are in a, in a position to
58:42
give your experience to other families.
58:47
Talk us through okay.
58:49
Let's say I am an autism dad and I find my way to.
58:54
Your website.
58:56
Monique: Yeah.
58:56
Rupert Isaacson: I make contact with you.
58:59
I'm new.
59:00
Monique: Yeah.
59:01
Rupert Isaacson: Tell me how it will go.
59:03
Monique: Yeah.
59:04
Well, first of all, I'm going to invite you of course, and the first thing I, I
59:09
do when I get someone here who is Alre, where I already knew he is autistic I
59:15
look at his body, what is he telling me?
59:20
And that's very important because we have talked it earlier.
59:25
The body is telling me everything.
59:27
And I quite often see that when I have a session with a mom or dad
59:33
or who are also autistic or the kid they are going to look for something.
59:42
Diarying the sissy to regulate themselves.
59:45
So it's about a bracelet a earing their hair.
59:51
They find stuff.
59:52
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we all stem
59:54
Monique: Yes, all of us
59:55
Rupert Isaacson: to Yes.
59:57
Regulate ourselves.
59:57
Yes, yes.
59:58
Monique: Especially when it's going to be difficult, then Yeah.
1:00:01
Then oh, oh, oh my gosh, I have so regulate because
1:00:04
this, this is very difficult.
1:00:05
This.
1:00:06
Yeah.
1:00:06
And that's what triggers me.
1:00:10
And when I throw it back at them then I get the answers.
1:00:16
Yeah.
1:00:17
It is difficult.
1:00:18
Yeah.
1:00:18
Emotions are difficult for me.
1:00:20
Yeah.
1:00:20
This is a big part for of me.
1:00:23
So.
1:00:24
That's my comm communication.
1:00:28
And are you always
1:00:28
Rupert Isaacson: asking the whole family to come, or as
1:00:32
many family members as possible?
1:00:34
Or do you start with just the kid, or how do you, how do you go?
1:00:38
Monique: Yeah.
1:00:38
Just what they want, because I always have the respect of them.
1:00:42
What is what you need and what is it, what you want?
1:00:46
I want to give a lot.
1:00:48
Mm-hmm.
1:00:48
But it also, it I want to know what do you want and what do you need
1:00:54
and how does it go all the way?
1:00:57
So, sometimes I began with the parents.
1:01:02
They said, said also, well, first us fine.
1:01:07
Fine.
1:01:08
Okay.
1:01:08
So sometimes
1:01:08
Rupert Isaacson: you'll do your first consultation with just the parents.
1:01:11
Yes.
1:01:12
And sometimes I know that's a good idea.
1:01:13
Monique: Yeah.
1:01:13
Yeah.
1:01:13
And sometimes they told me well, here we are.
1:01:17
And then therefore they old family.
1:01:19
Okay.
1:01:20
Also good.
1:01:21
So it's really yeah, I, I, I feel it.
1:01:25
Like, what is my intuition tells me what to do.
1:01:30
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:01:31
So how do your horses enter the picture?
1:01:35
Monique: What do you mean by that?
1:01:36
Rupert Isaacson: How do you, okay, now the parents have come or the family has come.
1:01:40
You're observing their bodies.
1:01:42
You're, you are finding out what they need to regulate themselves and so on.
1:01:47
Now you're going to add a horse.
1:01:49
Monique: Yes.
1:01:50
Yes.
1:01:50
How,
1:01:50
Rupert Isaacson: how does this happen?
1:01:52
Monique: Yes.
1:01:53
I'm going to look for the horses.
1:01:55
What he's telling me, is he standing by the stomach?
1:01:59
Is he breathing out?
1:02:00
Is he walking the horse?
1:02:04
Yes, the horse, that kind of thing.
1:02:05
Rupert Isaacson: So is the horse coming into a space with the person now?
1:02:10
Yes.
1:02:10
Okay.
1:02:10
Yes,
1:02:12
Monique: yes, yes.
1:02:13
And, I also, when the knees are there I have also a little boy who
1:02:18
I have put on the pony because he came from the hospital and he was
1:02:23
sent from a specialist over there.
1:02:26
He had some problem to go to the bathroom just like our son.
1:02:30
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:02:31
Monique: And that mother calls me and tells me that, oh, and he can't
1:02:34
go to the, and he has medicine and I don't want that medicine anymore.
1:02:38
I want to go in for himself to go to the bathroom.
1:02:40
Can you please help me?
1:02:43
Of course.
1:02:44
Come over here and we gonna have a look.
1:02:46
And that boy became two times here and he go to the bathroom.
1:02:50
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:02:51
Riding on the back,
1:02:51
Monique: riding on the deck of the horse and he go to the bathroom.
1:02:54
He
1:02:54
Rupert Isaacson: took a poo on the horse.
1:02:56
Monique: Yeah.
1:02:56
Yeah.
1:02:57
Wonderful.
1:02:58
Wonderful.
1:02:59
And that's exactly what we are doing.
1:03:01
And that's also what you are doing with the kids who on the horse
1:03:05
and your story with, with Rowan.
1:03:08
So I had to think about you when it, when it happens.
1:03:11
I thought, yeah, this, this kind of story.
1:03:14
And now I have it myself, my own.
1:03:17
So the mother is very glad about that, but now, okay.
1:03:21
The new school year has became and, and become, and, and she's calling
1:03:26
me again because the kid has a lot of tension and new again, he doesn't go
1:03:31
to the toilet, so we have to go again.
1:03:35
It's, it is, yeah.
1:03:36
I don't mind 'cause I know it's gonna be all right and I know where
1:03:39
it's from that get a lot of tension.
1:03:42
So it will be, be going all right after a few times.
1:03:47
Rupert Isaacson: So you do work with people riding as
1:03:50
well as people on the ground?
1:03:51
Yes.
1:03:51
Yes.
1:03:51
How do you decide
1:03:55
how to proceed?
1:03:57
Monique: What the question of the parents is I only put children on the podium.
1:04:02
Mm-hmm.
1:04:02
Rupert Isaacson: Not parents.
1:04:04
Okay.
1:04:04
Monique: No, the parents are always standing besides the horse.
1:04:08
Mm-hmm.
1:04:08
Yes.
1:04:09
So the children, I put them on the horses and I also learned them.
1:04:14
Other things, also school things.
1:04:17
We have special therapy we call it different learning by horses.
1:04:22
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:04:23
And
1:04:23
Monique: that's for child.
1:04:25
The who, who doesn't come
1:04:27
Husband: come along with, come along with, yeah, with, with
1:04:30
words and, and mathematics.
1:04:32
Yeah.
1:04:32
Something like that.
1:04:34
Rupert Isaacson: And is that something you've developed yourself or is that No.
1:04:38
No.
1:04:39
So that program that you use, that's an outside program?
1:04:41
Monique: Yes, yes.
1:04:42
I've learned that
1:04:43
Rupert Isaacson: learning with horses, it's called,
1:04:44
Monique: Yes, it's, yes.
1:04:45
Rupert Isaacson: And is that a, a, a Dutch thing or is that a yes?
1:04:48
Yeah.
1:04:48
Okay.
1:04:49
So tell me how that works.
1:04:51
Monique: Yes, it is.
1:04:52
Well, finally, you are going back in time how we learned on school.
1:04:57
Mm-hmm.
1:04:57
That's the part they, they don't give it on that way anymore on school.
1:05:02
So, what
1:05:03
Rupert Isaacson: do you mean?
1:05:04
Monique: What do I mean?
1:05:05
Rupert Isaacson: Learning through repetition.
1:05:06
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
1:05:09
Monique: yeah, yeah.
1:05:10
Yeah.
1:05:10
And it is, it is the same as the mother with, with her boy
1:05:15
who doesn't go to the toilet.
1:05:17
Mm-hmm.
1:05:17
Now the horse is the biggest friend of that child
1:05:20
Rupert Isaacson: who,
1:05:21
Monique: who, who counts read or, or writes or, or something like that.
1:05:26
And when the horse is with him, it goes on.
1:05:29
It goes because the, the tension is gone and there's another, so
1:05:35
Rupert Isaacson: when, when you are working with the academic stuff
1:05:37
on the horses, the learning with horses, are you using the horse's
1:05:41
movement as a rhythm to then create repe repetition of saying things and
1:05:47
giving information into the brain?
1:05:49
Yes.
1:05:49
Sometimes.
1:05:50
Is it working like that?
1:05:52
Monique: Sometimes.
1:05:53
And we also do some, some how do you call it, to bags?
1:05:57
Yeah.
1:05:58
Bags.
1:05:58
Bags right.
1:05:59
And, and left mm-hmm.
1:06:01
On the child when they are on the horses.
1:06:04
Mm-hmm.
1:06:04
And then we tell them to take something out of the left, back with the right hand.
1:06:11
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:06:12
Okay.
1:06:13
Also crossing the midline, you want them to Yes.
1:06:16
Yes.
1:06:16
That's also for the BDNF in the brain, right?
1:06:19
Monique: Exactly.
1:06:19
Exactly.
1:06:21
Rupert Isaacson: But when you are dealing with an academic concept, like
1:06:24
say numbers and you are doing this on the horse, tell me how it works.
1:06:28
How, how are you doing it?
1:06:30
Monique: We have a couple of things, how we do it.
1:06:33
Sometimes first we do it when they take the horse beside them.
1:06:37
So they walk with the horse.
1:06:40
Yeah.
1:06:40
And then just simply from one till 10 or we put how do you call it?
1:06:46
Yeah, many of further mm-hmm.
1:06:51
But, but yeah.
1:06:52
Let's keep it easy.
1:06:54
My English is not that good.
1:06:56
How can I explain it?
1:06:57
The,
1:06:57
Husband: the practice from the numbers from 0, 10, 20, 30, 45.
1:07:02
Rupert Isaacson: Counting.
1:07:03
Yes.
1:07:03
Yes.
1:07:03
Counting.
1:07:04
Yeah.
1:07:04
Okay.
1:07:05
So you could count steps.
1:07:06
You could count, yes.
1:07:08
Yes.
1:07:08
But okay.
1:07:09
But let's say you want to do arithmetic.
1:07:11
Let's say you want to do division.
1:07:14
How would you do that?
1:07:17
Monique: What do you mean exactly?
1:07:18
Rupert Isaacson: Well, for example, when I was teaching my son numbers and letters
1:07:23
on the horse, initially what happened was I would, I followed his interests, right?
1:07:29
So he loved the Lion King.
1:07:31
Mm-hmm.
1:07:32
So I would be singing the Lion King songs.
1:07:35
Don't worry, I'm not going to sing now.
1:07:37
And then I would take the ca a character like say.
1:07:43
Zu and I would put the letters of Zazu on these different trees.
1:07:51
Yes, we would ride, but you know, at least 30 seconds of
1:07:56
riding in between each letter.
1:07:59
Mm-hmm.
1:07:59
So the trees are at a distance.
1:08:01
We can also learn what is this tree, et cetera.
1:08:04
And then at the end there'd be a little toy of azi and he learned
1:08:09
to put the letters together.
1:08:11
And then from there, very quickly it went out to reading.
1:08:15
Similarly with numbers I would start with counting, counting
1:08:20
the steps of the horse and so on.
1:08:22
And then counting things from the horse.
1:08:26
Yeah.
1:08:26
But then I could get friends and family members to stand together.
1:08:33
One of them wears a silly hat that one has to go.
1:08:36
So push that one away, making farts.
1:08:41
Because it's funny.
1:08:42
And then we see how many are left and then this person starts to
1:08:46
cry because they're by themselves.
1:08:48
So we have to put them back.
1:08:50
And how many have we got?
1:08:52
And then say that's adding and subtracting.
1:08:55
But then with division let's say I had six people in a line, I would say
1:09:01
to Rowan, do you think they can run?
1:09:03
Let's see if they can run.
1:09:05
And then we'd go behind.
1:09:07
And of course I've told the people what we're gonna do,
1:09:10
and then we come really fast.
1:09:13
In the Gallup?
1:09:15
Yeah.
1:09:15
In the middle going.
1:09:16
And the two groups of three go and they run away to each side.
1:09:21
And then we have, oh, look, we've got two groups of three, so you know,
1:09:24
six divided by two is three, blah.
1:09:26
And then we round them up.
1:09:29
With farts, multiply six times two, like a cowboy, a farting cowboy,
1:09:34
you know, and suddenly we have multiplication and we found that
1:09:37
this kind of thing worked very well.
1:09:39
Are you doing something similar, or is it, does it happen differently with you?
1:09:44
Monique: Yeah, it, it is, it is only with a child.
1:09:47
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:09:48
Monique: So there are no other people, people
1:09:50
Rupert Isaacson: around,
1:09:50
Monique: around?
1:09:51
No.
1:09:51
Okay.
1:09:52
No.
1:09:54
Rupert Isaacson: And how, let's, so let's say it was something
1:09:57
like the using of the numbers.
1:10:00
Monique: Mm-hmm.
1:10:01
Rupert Isaacson: Can you give us an example?
1:10:03
Monique: Yeah.
1:10:05
I can sometimes I put a clock, um mm-hmm.
1:10:09
On the ground.
1:10:10
And I will ask them how, how late it is when they are already doing that.
1:10:16
So, so it's, it's, eh, also what you also told put numbers around in the certain
1:10:23
world or I let them search for it.
1:10:27
It's also something Yes.
1:10:28
Sometimes I let 'em search for it.
1:10:31
And I put a number on and I thought, well go for, look for the same numbers,
1:10:37
and then they have to pronounce it also.
1:10:40
Mm-hmm.
1:10:40
What kind of number do you have?
1:10:42
Sometimes I put also the words under the number so they have it both.
1:10:47
So they have, and the number and the words.
1:10:50
So, for example two, then they also have, have the word two.
1:10:55
Mm-hmm.
1:10:55
Mm-hmm.
1:10:55
Under the number.
1:10:58
So there are a couple of ways.
1:11:01
I can yeah, teach them.
1:11:04
Rupert Isaacson: And is this generally with younger kids or is it all ages?
1:11:07
Monique: Most of our till 12 years.
1:11:11
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:11:12
Yes.
1:11:12
And what is, would you say the most complex mathematical thing that you would
1:11:20
Monique: do?
1:11:21
Mm, that's a difficult question because every child has his own difficulty,
1:11:29
so, yeah, that's a difficult question.
1:11:32
I cannot really say this, this thing is really on top of it or something.
1:11:39
No, no.
1:11:42
I'm
1:11:42
Rupert Isaacson: just thinking, for example, when, when I was finishing
1:11:46
the extent of my abilities with maths, which are not very big, the process
1:11:52
that I just described with Rowan was about as much as I could really
1:11:57
do because I'm not a mathematician.
1:11:59
So I then made contact with a really good mathematician.
1:12:04
Mm-hmm.
1:12:05
Who understood what we were doing with movement.
1:12:08
Yeah.
1:12:08
With the horse and with not, and he's this guy called Dr.
1:12:11
Alfred Siegler.
1:12:12
He's German, and he was a physics professor at the University of Abrook and
1:12:18
an old family friend of my wife's family.
1:12:21
He understood the need for movement, so we asked him to come up with.
1:12:29
Modules, teaching modules that we could do for children who were
1:12:33
needing to go to more advanced levels.
1:12:36
Mm-hmm.
1:12:36
And we found it was extraordinary that we could teach things like how
1:12:40
to calculate the area of a circle or how to calculate pie or how to
1:12:46
do complex geometry using the horse, using the forest, using the dog.
1:12:52
Yeah.
1:12:53
And on our website, we have all of these modules now for people to use.
1:12:57
Mm-hmm.
1:12:58
Because we became frustrated with our own limitations.
1:13:03
Yeah.
1:13:03
So we began to reach out to other people for maths and science.
1:13:09
And we found that through these collaborations we
1:13:11
could do things like this.
1:13:12
Are you, are some of the kids coming to you needing to learn
1:13:17
some of the higher skills?
1:13:19
And if so.
1:13:22
Are there, are you finding ways to address that?
1:13:24
No.
1:13:24
No.
1:13:24
Or you just doing fairly much at the basics?
1:13:28
Monique: Yeah.
1:13:28
Yeah.
1:13:29
Okay.
1:13:29
Yeah.
1:13:29
Most of all the basics.
1:13:31
And it is most of all that school is too quick.
1:13:35
They, they, they are pushing the it Yeah,
1:13:38
Rupert Isaacson: sure.
1:13:39
Monique: They, they, they want to learn it very quick, but they don't
1:13:42
understand what they are learning.
1:13:44
So that's the thing.
1:13:46
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes.
1:13:48
I agree.
1:13:48
It's, it's so difficult in school.
1:13:51
Yeah.
1:13:52
'cause the, the sensory environment is wrong.
1:13:55
The kid can't move.
1:13:57
Yeah.
1:13:57
The school smells bad.
1:13:59
Yes.
1:13:59
They're afraid of the other kids.
1:14:01
They're afraid of the teacher.
1:14:02
Yeah.
1:14:02
Everything is going to push the learning backwards.
1:14:06
Yeah.
1:14:06
Yeah.
1:14:07
And they come out to a place like yours, suddenly they're with somebody.
1:14:12
Nice.
1:14:14
And there were two nice people.
1:14:15
One of them has four legs.
1:14:16
One of them has two legs.
1:14:18
Has two legs.
1:14:19
Yeah.
1:14:19
They're in a nice environment, as you say.
1:14:22
There's time they can relax and they're moving.
1:14:26
Yes.
1:14:26
Again, neuroplasticity.
1:14:29
Do you then get reports back from the school, from the teachers
1:14:34
saying, oh, or from the parent?
1:14:37
This child, yeah.
1:14:38
Made a jump.
1:14:40
Monique: Yeah.
1:14:40
But I also recognize that school is a little bit.
1:14:44
Yeah,
1:14:46
Rupert Isaacson: sure.
1:14:46
But
1:14:46
Monique: I'm a teacher, so how is this possible?
1:14:49
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
1:14:49
Monique: yeah.
1:14:50
No, it, no.
1:14:51
Yes.
1:14:52
It's,
1:14:52
Rupert Isaacson: they, they, they hate admitting it, don't they?
1:14:54
It's like, yeah.
1:14:55
So it couldn't possibly be the lady with the horse.
1:14:57
Yeah.
1:14:58
Monique: Yeah.
1:14:59
But, but you are only a coach.
1:15:01
You are not a teacher.
1:15:03
How so?
1:15:04
That's a little bit yeah.
1:15:05
Sometimes fights.
1:15:07
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:15:07
Fiction.
1:15:08
Monique: Fiction, yeah.
1:15:09
Fiction between the teacher and me as a coach.
1:15:13
And, and how, how is it possible?
1:15:16
Parents are happy.
1:15:18
They see a kid with a smile and learning,
1:15:21
Rupert Isaacson: I tell you, it really does help.
1:15:24
When we, we, when we do our trainings for horse boy movement method,
1:15:27
one of the things that we, we teach people is the neuroscience.
1:15:33
Yeah.
1:15:33
And when you, you understand you why the brain is responding in this way.
1:15:40
And you can say to that teacher, well, it's because blah, blah, blah, and blah.
1:15:46
First you create oxytocin, then that gets rid of cortisol.
1:15:49
Then this creates BDNF.
1:15:51
BDNF does this in the brain and then in the BDNF you get these other cells
1:15:56
in the cerebellum that govern Yeah.
1:15:59
Social skills and most skills, and so on and so on.
1:16:02
And this way we can feed in the information like this.
1:16:04
That's why it works.
1:16:05
And here are 10 university studies that prove it.
1:16:10
Yeah.
1:16:11
Yeah.
1:16:11
What what really helped us last year to 20 40,024 was a PhD was published
1:16:18
into one of our programs, which is called Movement Method, which
1:16:22
is the one we do without horses.
1:16:25
That's now in schools.
1:16:26
And but it's based on everything that we do with horses.
1:16:29
It's just we realized that people needed, you know, something
1:16:33
to do, you know, at home.
1:16:35
And we never thought that it would end up in schools, but it did.
1:16:39
And then a PhD was done on Movement Method in schools in Germany.
1:16:45
What were called UNK schools was burning Point Schools where they had
1:16:50
an overwhelming number of of refugees.
1:16:53
And there were Ukrainian children with Russian children fighting.
1:16:56
There were Syrian children fighting with Iraqi children and so on.
1:17:00
And Movement method came in and didn't just create better academic
1:17:07
and better behavior outcomes.
1:17:10
But also, this was interesting, the teachers.
1:17:14
Wanted to stay in the job.
1:17:16
There was better teacher satisfaction and fewer teachers leaving the job
1:17:20
because we did the study over some years.
1:17:22
Yeah.
1:17:23
It's really handy when you can point to these things with schools and
1:17:27
teachers and say, well look, why are these schools in Germany doing it?
1:17:31
Then, you know, why are these schools in the USA doing it?
1:17:34
Why in Ireland does the government now sponsor horse boy movement
1:17:39
method programs again since 2024?
1:17:42
Well, 'cause it works.
1:17:43
Why does it work?
1:17:45
Okay, blah, blah, blah.
1:17:46
So maybe when we're done with this core, I can connect you with some people
1:17:51
in the Netherlands who are working in this way and have access to that data.
1:17:57
Yes.
1:17:58
And then when you approach a school or you're talking with a school, it's
1:18:02
not just you, Monique Timmermans, you know the lady with the horses?
1:18:07
No, no.
1:18:07
We're attached to this large scientific community.
1:18:12
Admittedly, we didn't start as scientist it.
1:18:16
And therefore, if you don't believe me, then show me your
1:18:23
doctorate in neuroscience, please.
1:18:27
Where did you get your doctorate?
1:18:28
Yeah.
1:18:29
And then of course I say, well, I haven't got one.
1:18:31
And you say, well, then why are we arguing?
1:18:32
You know?
1:18:33
Yeah.
1:18:35
And it, I, I think I, I, I'm optimistic.
1:18:37
I have a feeling that there's a shift coming in education because most schools
1:18:42
know that essentially they're failing.
1:18:45
And I think many parents are voting with their feet and removing their
1:18:51
children from the school system.
1:18:52
Yeah.
1:18:53
Yeah.
1:18:53
More than ever, you know?
1:18:55
Yeah.
1:18:55
And I, I, so one can go from, from this and then.
1:19:00
I, I would bet that two years from this conversation, those same schools will
1:19:06
be using you as an outside classroom, which is what often happens to a lot of
1:19:13
the people that we do trainings with.
1:19:14
Yeah, yeah.
1:19:15
Yeah.
1:19:16
And suddenly they're saying, oh, Monique, could you take these five children?
1:19:19
Yeah, yeah, of course.
1:19:22
Monique: Yeah,
1:19:23
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.
1:19:24
Monique: Nice.
1:19:26
Okay,
1:19:26
Rupert Isaacson: so where do you, where's it going for you?
1:19:28
How do you want to develop your program?
1:19:30
Where do you see it?
1:19:32
You know.
1:19:32
And are, are you, are you attached to any larger groups within the Netherlands?
1:19:37
Are you very much a one man show?
1:19:39
You know, what's your desire for the future as an autism man?
1:19:44
Yeah.
1:19:45
Where are we going?
1:19:46
Monique: Where are we going?
1:19:47
I don't know.
1:19:48
I don't know where we going, but I would like to help other people, other families.
1:19:55
I think I can give them a lot of experience and I
1:20:00
want to have a holistic way.
1:20:03
Hmm.
1:20:03
I like that because there are a lot of things in a family that are important.
1:20:09
And yeah, learning by the job.
1:20:12
I, I don't know where, where I'm going to I'll take it from the moment and yeah.
1:20:17
Rupert Isaacson: Well, listening to you in this conversation, what I hear from
1:20:21
both of you very much is the word family.
1:20:24
Family, family.
1:20:25
Like, so you have had this experience because you have three children.
1:20:28
Monique: Yeah.
1:20:29
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:20:30
We have not had the time in this conversation to talk much about the
1:20:34
experience of your other two children.
1:20:36
However, I'm sure that you have had, and you still have to live a life in which
1:20:46
making sure you meet the needs of the other two kids
1:20:51
presents constant challenges.
1:20:54
And these challenges change, right?
1:20:56
Yeah.
1:20:57
From, you know, year to year, month to month.
1:21:00
And then there's also your marriage, right?
1:21:02
Yeah.
1:21:02
So you are lucky.
1:21:03
You guys have stayed, you know, strong.
1:21:07
You've stayed together.
1:21:09
You know, and I know this is not the experience of the majority
1:21:13
of special needs families.
1:21:15
It's about 80% divorce.
1:21:18
Now it's 50% anyway, divorce rate, but 80%, that's high.
1:21:23
You must have had challenges, obviously, like anyone, any marriage staying
1:21:28
together through the difficult times.
1:21:31
What would you say is both of you?
1:21:34
Let, let's, let's hear from you a little bit.
1:21:36
So
1:21:39
as an autism dad in this situation also, you've got it on your shoulders.
1:21:44
You've got say, shit, I've gotta keep earning the money.
1:21:47
I've got to, but I, at the same time, I can't separate myself.
1:21:50
Too much from the family and just say, I'm earning the money.
1:21:53
You, Monique, go there.
1:21:55
Sort out the kids.
1:21:56
We know this doesn't work.
1:21:57
You know?
1:21:59
What were the biggest challenges for you as a dad and how did, how has
1:22:04
Monique's work helped shape you as a dad?
1:22:09
Or has, how has you as a dad helped shape, money shape?
1:22:14
Wow.
1:22:14
That's difficult to say.
1:22:15
Husband: Yeah, of course it is both ways.
1:22:17
Mm-hmm.
1:22:17
The most important thing we've learned together is that you give
1:22:24
each one the time and the space to accept the situation we are in.
1:22:31
Okay.
1:22:32
Yeah.
1:22:32
Especially with well, you have, you have a special child with
1:22:37
Monique: special
1:22:38
Husband: care, special care, special attention.
1:22:40
Yeah.
1:22:41
But your other two kids are also special in another way.
1:22:45
So they need the same attention.
1:22:49
Yeah.
1:22:50
You, that's why I we earlier told that we are very thankful that we learned in
1:22:57
at the dolphin therapy to, to well, to park some for a moment because we were,
1:23:04
we are busy at that moment with the other two or one or the other two kids.
1:23:09
Yeah.
1:23:10
But the most important thing is I'm a man.
1:23:13
I look differently at some things especially about emotions or something
1:23:18
like that to, to certain situations.
1:23:22
Yeah.
1:23:23
About sound, about, no, a number of things.
1:23:27
But Monique respects my point of view at those emotions and otherwise.
1:23:35
I respect Monique with her emotions and, and some, some, at some points she, she
1:23:42
needs more time and in other occasions I need more time to accept things.
1:23:48
It's also very important that you, that you have things that are only for you.
1:23:54
Yeah.
1:23:55
I, I like to run and, and, and, and to go on a bicycle for a few
1:23:59
hours or, or something like that.
1:24:01
Yeah.
1:24:01
Sport is very important for me.
1:24:03
So she gave me the opportunity to, to, to, to do my sports.
1:24:09
Yeah.
1:24:09
The other thing is Nick is not, she already told Yeah.
1:24:12
Horses are everything.
1:24:14
Yeah.
1:24:15
So she needs her space and her time with the horses.
1:24:18
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:24:19
Husband: So you, that's, that's that's the balance you are looking for constantly.
1:24:24
Yes.
1:24:24
Yes.
1:24:25
And, and after a, after a while, you, you, you don't have to think
1:24:30
anymore how to, to get that balance.
1:24:34
You recognize when you, oh, okay.
1:24:35
Now we're a little off balance.
1:24:37
What do we need to, to, to balance again,
1:24:41
Rupert Isaacson: again?
1:24:41
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:24:43
No, absolutely.
1:24:44
This type of, of communication, it's so interesting because what
1:24:48
we're trying to do, I think with all of our equine assisted practice
1:24:52
is get communication, right?
1:24:53
You're dealing with an a nonverbal kid or you're trying to get communication.
1:24:57
You're dealing with somebody who has depression is a little shut down,
1:25:01
or it's all about communication.
1:25:04
Of course, marriage is, you know, yes.
1:25:06
We know that when we stop communicating, things get funky very fast.
1:25:10
Yes.
1:25:10
But fortunately I think in our practice we do, well, we have a
1:25:17
practice of trying to communicate.
1:25:20
So perhaps it comes a little more naturally to us to say
1:25:23
maybe we don't want to be here.
1:25:24
Maybe.
1:25:26
We have some tools to get out of here let's use them.
1:25:30
Do you guys help other couples with this?
1:25:35
Do you advise the parents not just in their parenting, but also in their
1:25:42
communication within the marriage at all?
1:25:44
Has this come into the practice?
1:25:47
Monique: Not especially but sometimes I have some kind of
1:25:51
couples in my practice, yeah.
1:25:55
Who has this problem.
1:25:56
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:25:57
Monique: So yeah, on that way it is.
1:26:00
And the only thing I have done two years ago was it maybe, yeah,
1:26:07
Husband: she had, she had a, a lecture
1:26:09
Monique: Yeah.
1:26:10
Husband: For a number of people.
1:26:11
Yeah.
1:26:12
Yeah.
1:26:12
Another
1:26:12
Monique: parents yeah.
1:26:13
A lot of different
1:26:14
Husband: people who are connected with autism.
1:26:17
So parents with autism, but also people from the, the community, from government
1:26:23
social workers, et cetera like that.
1:26:25
And there she she gave a lecture about her, about our experience.
1:26:31
Yeah.
1:26:32
How to deal with yeah.
1:26:34
A child who has autism.
1:26:36
Monique: What to do with, with when it is eastern and you have all the
1:26:40
family on your table standing nice and, and your, your son or daughter
1:26:45
is, is going to the kitchen alone.
1:26:47
No, you have to come over here because No.
1:26:51
Just let them, no,
1:26:53
Rupert Isaacson: let
1:26:54
Monique: them thing.
1:26:55
Well, many eyes opened over there and they told me, really?
1:27:01
Are you doing that this way?
1:27:03
Yeah.
1:27:03
How nice.
1:27:04
And I really thought, huh, you don't know.
1:27:08
It's, it's, it's, yeah, it
1:27:09
Rupert Isaacson: is interesting, isn't it?
1:27:11
Yeah.
1:27:11
I, I think one of the things which is the key here, whether we're talking
1:27:17
about with the child or whether we're talking about with each other,
1:27:21
it's about letting off the pressure.
1:27:25
Yes.
1:27:25
Yeah.
1:27:26
I, I think that so often there is this tendency to think.
1:27:33
We are in a crisis situation here or something we just put more pressure on.
1:27:37
Yeah.
1:27:38
Yeah.
1:27:38
And whether we do this, I do this to my wife, or I do this to my kid,
1:27:42
or my kid does it to me or, and it's often at that, and I think this
1:27:47
is where horses are really good.
1:27:49
Yeah.
1:27:50
We know that when things get challenging with horses, if you put more pressure
1:27:56
on in that moment, you could die.
1:27:59
Yeah.
1:27:59
Like you really could.
1:28:00
Yeah.
1:28:01
You've gotta be very angry like that, you know?
1:28:04
So why don't we apply the same logic to our human situations?
1:28:09
And it's so interesting that whenever we do, whenever we say, you know,
1:28:12
just let him go to the kitchen and let the Easter unfold for everybody else,
1:28:18
and we will work on being able to be together at table over five years.
1:28:24
It's fine.
1:28:25
Suddenly you feel that sense of, oh.
1:28:28
Like a relief or, yeah, in a marriage.
1:28:30
Oh, you mean I don't have to fix all your problems and you don't
1:28:33
have to fix all my problems.
1:28:35
Whew.
1:28:36
Thank God I can't.
1:28:38
I know I can't.
1:28:40
Here is something which I think you know, we're approaching now towards, you know,
1:28:45
the hour and a half, two hour mark and, you know, we can pick this conversation
1:28:50
up again later, but something I'm seeing more and more, I think with the parents
1:28:56
that I work with who are more than 10 years into this adventure, that what
1:29:04
is not addressed is the cumulative trauma that special needs parents go
1:29:13
through in the course of their lives.
1:29:16
And that there is never any time to address this.
1:29:22
And I'm not saying that we can create this time.
1:29:26
Because life is life.
1:29:27
Yeah.
1:29:28
But I think it would be useful to begin to put together some sort of methodology
1:29:35
for looking at this, acknowledging this saying, well, what do we do?
1:29:42
Given that this is not an ideal situation when people need 30, 40 years of 50
1:29:50
years of energy to keep this going.
1:29:55
And, you know, you're, you're a financial advisor, so, you know, so
1:30:00
I know from this financial side too, with special needs, you really have to
1:30:05
think, okay, what happens after I die?
1:30:07
You know, and.
1:30:10
Not j There's the, the financial side, and then there's also the family side.
1:30:14
Will the family come together around my child, or will my child
1:30:19
be somewhat alone after I die?
1:30:21
Yeah.
1:30:22
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
1:30:23
These worries that we keep us up at night.
1:30:26
Plus just the cumulative, the accumulated exhaustion and worry and yeah.
1:30:36
Flat out trauma.
1:30:37
Yeah.
1:30:37
So this business of being a special needs parent and a special
1:30:41
needs couple obviously we've seen that it can split people apart
1:30:45
or it can weld people together.
1:30:49
Do you see your practice evolving over the next few years towards helping couples?
1:30:55
Monique: Yeah, of course.
1:30:56
Yeah, for sure.
1:30:58
I can bring a lot.
1:31:00
I have a lot of experience and I know the way you have to go through
1:31:05
it, it's not always easy, but
1:31:08
Rupert Isaacson: never is.
1:31:09
Monique: Never is.
1:31:10
It never is.
1:31:11
But but also there when you listen to each other that it's gonna be okay.
1:31:19
You, you have to know it's always with the, with the best ways you are doing it.
1:31:26
Rupert Isaacson: That everyone is actually trying their best.
1:31:28
Monique: Yeah.
1:31:28
It's not, it's not because you don't like your partner or No, it's just because
1:31:34
probably you love your husband or your wife and you want the best for it,
1:31:38
but that's sometimes it, it's, it, it struggles it be because you, you want,
1:31:44
well, I think, I think too with stress,
1:31:46
Rupert Isaacson: the stress hormone, cortisol.
1:31:48
It makes us not rational, right?
1:31:51
So we know this, when, when cortisol gets going in the brain, the stress hormone,
1:31:56
we become aggressive, we become defensive.
1:31:59
We,
1:31:59
Monique: yeah,
1:32:00
Rupert Isaacson: we become three years old again.
1:32:03
And if we are in situations where this is happening constantly, then
1:32:07
we're constantly three years old.
1:32:09
And this is not helpful.
1:32:12
Monique: No, no.
1:32:15
Rupert Isaacson: So I would be very interested in the next, I, I think
1:32:19
this is where it has to go in our work.
1:32:22
I think most of us have been concentrating for the last 20 years or so on the
1:32:29
child perhaps, or, or the individual with the condition, perhaps the family
1:32:35
as well, but not really the couple.
1:32:39
Not really the primary engine that keeps Yeah.
1:32:43
The whole thing going.
1:32:44
Yeah.
1:32:44
And I'm realizing more and more that this is where we have to collaborate.
1:32:48
You know, all of us who have been, I want to throw this out there
1:32:53
for the listeners and the viewers.
1:32:54
If you've been in this journey for more than 10 years, you have a lot to share.
1:33:00
And do we all need to get together now and create a practice that does
1:33:06
address the exhaustion, the trauma, the,
1:33:12
the deep unhappiness and sadness
1:33:14
Monique: Exactly.
1:33:15
That,
1:33:15
Rupert Isaacson: you know, can grow over time despite, yes, it's beautiful and
1:33:21
yes, we can see success, but it, you know,
1:33:27
sometimes having to, to speak so positively all the time
1:33:31
can also take its toll that.
1:33:33
You know, what do we do with the sadness?
1:33:35
You know, what, what, what do you feel?
1:33:38
You two, what, what, what do we do?
1:33:40
Monique: Yeah.
1:33:42
Yeah.
1:33:42
Well,
1:33:44
Husband: the point is when your child is born, you have several expectations
1:33:49
about they go to university, they, they make friends, they, they get
1:33:55
married, get children et cetera.
1:33:57
All that kind of life events Yeah.
1:34:01
That you are expecting.
1:34:03
And when they are diagnosed autism a lot of these expectations you have
1:34:09
to change because, you know, some won't get married or get children or
1:34:15
graduate at, at, at high school or university or something like that.
1:34:19
Monique: It's a kind of grief.
1:34:21
Husband: It's, it's a kind of breed indeed.
1:34:23
And, and, you have to find a way to see the, the positive things of, of Stan,
1:34:31
you, you, you, you are much easier, happy about the little steps he makes
1:34:39
in comparing with the other children who does graduate or do the things
1:34:45
do the yeah, do the things are yeah.
1:34:48
Similar with their age.
1:34:51
You know what I mean?
1:34:52
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I do.
1:34:52
I do.
1:34:53
I'm just thinking while you were talking about Rowan.
1:34:55
And so although Rowan is, you know, he's very independent.
1:35:00
He has his own house and car now he travels independently.
1:35:04
He has a couple of different jobs.
1:35:06
Yeah.
1:35:06
And in some ways though, he's also still completely autistic.
1:35:09
It, it's in parallel.
1:35:11
This, this yeah.
1:35:12
Extreme functionality with this extreme, you know, autism.
1:35:15
But what, what, what I really.
1:35:18
Have come to see is that he has this role as a peacemaker.
1:35:23
He resolves conflict.
1:35:26
He does it within my family.
1:35:29
When we are all pissed off with each other Rowan only has to enter the
1:35:34
conversation and suddenly we are all a little bit back on our game.
1:35:40
It makes us focus on what's important.
1:35:43
And then I find too that when he is physically present, people behave better.
1:35:50
People are, and I bet it's the same with Stan, right?
1:35:53
That's right.
1:35:54
Yeah.
1:35:54
That's, yeah.
1:35:54
Yeah.
1:35:56
You, you were talking about like when he's out with the dog in the neighborhood
1:36:00
and everyone is, oh, they're, look, now they're looking out for Stan.
1:36:03
And if they, they either see the dog and if they see the dog, they know he's there.
1:36:06
Or if they see he's there, they know the dog is there.
1:36:09
The, this is a cohesive.
1:36:12
Thing for the, for the community.
1:36:14
And so when you're talking about adjusting expectations, I think what's often not
1:36:22
presented is there are actually some really high and good expectations.
1:36:27
Like, for example, are children taking on these conflict resolving roles?
1:36:32
Yeah.
1:36:32
Yeah.
1:36:33
Which are very, very valuable.
1:36:35
Yeah.
1:36:36
Do you know what I mean?
1:36:37
But this is not something which is presented to us culturally.
1:36:42
So maybe people like you, people like me, need to be going out there with this Yeah.
1:36:51
And say, okay, you've resolved, you know, you're abandoning, there's a
1:36:55
grief over this set of expectations and dreams, but here are the other ones.
1:37:01
Yes.
1:37:02
Monique: Yes.
1:37:02
Sometimes I, I, I tell someone else when everyone was like, stump.
1:37:10
It would be a beautiful world
1:37:11
Rupert Isaacson: would be 'cause he
1:37:12
Monique: learns us to enjoy the little things, the times he is
1:37:17
walking with his frock on his finger.
1:37:20
Look, I have a frock.
1:37:22
Well, I'm glad I'm, I'm laughing.
1:37:25
I'm, I'm, yeah, it's lovely because I don't even catch a frog and
1:37:30
he is just walking with a frog
1:37:33
Rupert Isaacson: and so something is going on in the consciousness
1:37:36
field between him and the frog.
1:37:38
Yeah.
1:37:38
Something is going and, and that reminds us, ah, there are these
1:37:41
different fields of consciousness.
1:37:43
Yeah.
1:37:44
And I can't walk around with a frog on my finger.
1:37:47
You can't walk around with a frog on your feet.
1:37:49
No.
1:37:50
No.
1:37:50
He can.
1:37:51
Yeah.
1:37:52
What else can he do?
1:37:53
He can resolve conflict by walking through the community.
1:37:57
Monique: Yeah.
1:37:57
Rupert Isaacson: Perhaps the person who sees him has just had a big
1:38:00
argument with their wife or kid, and then they see Stan and the dog
1:38:05
come through and they're like, whew.
1:38:08
Yeah.
1:38:09
I bet you that's going on.
1:38:11
Monique: Yeah.
1:38:11
Yeah,
1:38:12
Husband: yeah.
1:38:13
That's now because Stu has no expectations to anyone, to no one at all.
1:38:20
Monique: I just want to tell.
1:38:24
Husband: Okay.
1:38:25
And, and we always had expectation.
1:38:28
We always already imagination, imagination things.
1:38:33
How, what's going to ha what's going to happen, how it should
1:38:36
be perhaps would be happen.
1:38:37
Yeah.
1:38:37
How it should be.
1:38:39
And, and Stu doesn't do that because not because, so he
1:38:45
is, he's living the life yeah.
1:38:47
Right at the moment.
1:38:48
Right at the moment.
1:38:49
Monique: Just moment by moment and not what it's about next week.
1:38:53
No.
1:38:53
This just like horses.
1:38:54
Husband: Yes.
1:38:55
Now this, this is it, and not what may this moment happen.
1:38:58
Monique: Yeah.
1:38:58
Rupert Isaacson: Unconditional love.
1:38:59
Monique: Yeah.
1:39:00
Yes.
1:39:00
Unconditional love.
1:39:02
Yeah.
1:39:03
Yeah.
1:39:05
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that's a great, that's a great note to end on.
1:39:09
I look forward to continuing this conversation.
1:39:11
You know, I, I think mon you, you and I should try to
1:39:14
collaborate a little bit nice.
1:39:15
And obviously there's a fair horse boy community in the Netherlands.
1:39:18
But particularly over this business of the parent, the parental experience,
1:39:23
and perhaps both of you, you know, we could continue this conversation.
1:39:28
I'd be, I, I, I think it, it, it has to happen.
1:39:32
Um mm-hmm.
1:39:34
But thank you so much for coming on the show and having this conversation.
1:39:38
I really appreciate it.
1:39:40
I know our listeners Thank you.
1:39:42
We liked it last.
1:39:43
Yeah.
1:39:43
Monique: We're to very last.
1:39:44
Yeah.
1:39:44
Rupert Isaacson: Tell yes.
1:39:46
Yeah.
1:39:47
Spread the word.
1:39:47
Spread the word.
1:39:49
And, you know, next time I'm coming through the Netherlands I'd love
1:39:52
to come and, and check out ini.
1:39:54
So I see for those people who want to check out.
1:39:57
Monique's work.
1:39:58
It's in Compi nl, right?
1:40:03
Yes.
1:40:03
Right.
1:40:04
And if you're an English speaker, the Compi bit is spelled with a K.
1:40:07
With a K?
1:40:08
Monique: Yes.
1:40:09
In
1:40:09
Rupert Isaacson: Compi, IE.
1:40:12
So it's like compassion.
1:40:13
But with a K, not a C.
1:40:14
And IE, not I, in Compi nl for the Netherlands.
1:40:19
Monique: Yes.
1:40:20
Rupert Isaacson: Check out her stuff.
1:40:22
Monique: Thank you.
1:40:23
Rupert Isaacson: We will.
1:40:23
All right.
1:40:24
All right.
1:40:25
Okay, my friends.
1:40:26
Until the next time.
1:40:27
Thank you again
1:40:28
Monique: next time.
1:40:29
Thank you.
1:40:29
See
1:40:29
Rupert Isaacson: you.
1:40:29
Bye-bye.
1:40:30
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