Latest / The Sober Creative Podcast / Episode 070 - The Whisper Needs You Awake: Lisa Marie Simmons on Performing, Writing, and Drinking Less

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Episode 070 - The Whisper Needs You Awake: Lisa Marie Simmons on Performing, Writing, and Drinking Less · The Sober Creative Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome everyone to The Sober Creative Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Every guest has done some version of the same hard thing.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: They got honest about what alcohol was costing them.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Some quit, some cut back, some don't use a word for it at all.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: What they share is that they're creating from a space that's actually theirs.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Josh Woll, and I'm excited to bring you today's guest.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Marie Simmons was raised in Boulder, Colorado.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: And came up through several troubled adoptions and foster homes.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: She found her footing singing in a church choir and went on to be featured soloist
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: with the Boulder Youth Choir.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: At 19,
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: she moved to New York to study theater and music and work the Manhattan Club circuit
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: at night.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Music is my savior, she says, and my past has taught me empathy.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Today, she writes and records from Lake Garda in Italy alongside her husband,
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: keyboardist, Marco, Cremaschini?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Cremaschini, the pianist, yeah.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Cremaschini.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Nice, thank you.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Together they lead the neo-folk group Hippie Tendencies,
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: and the two of them dreamed up and write for No Speak,
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: a spoken word jazz band whose work has reached the Venice Biennale,
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: the Japer music stage in India,
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: five-star reviews and downbeat, and a Carnegie Hall debut last year.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Earlier this month,
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: her song,
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Shaping the Yet to Be,
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: won the grand prize for best jazz song in the John Lennon songwriting contest.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: You rock.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: She describes a song beginning as the seed of a whisper,
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: something that arrives in a dream or on a walk or in the middle of a crowded bar
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: and asks who exists.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Her job is to coax it into language,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: hand it to the band who make it bloom, Get on tape and then let it go.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: When I invited her on, she told me right away that she isn't sober.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: She's cut back drastically over the last few years and she was honest that
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: the change is hard to quantify because she has always been a bit of a workaholic.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: And her workday, what she could name was energy.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Her workday goes further now.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's more of her left at the end of it.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Marie, welcome to the show.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Josh, for having me.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: This is a wonderful thing that you're doing,
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: and I believe an important thing that you're doing, having these conversations.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I think too with the business, there's not all one size shape.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's not one size fits all.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everybody has a different relationship.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, with alcohol, and I think people can have a healthy relationship.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so, I mean, I think it's always worth exploring all the different angles and such.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's interesting for me, I mean,
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think for any performers,
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: people who get up on a stage, that's a really frightening, scary thing to do.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And there's this...
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: This old trope,
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: that people,
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: that artists,
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: the tortured artist needs to drink to be able to write or to perform,
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know, that exists.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I was certainly a victim of that, I think, in the beginning of my career.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly used it as a crutch,
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: alcohol as a crutch,
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: to get up on stage,
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: to get over the fear of getting up in front of all those people
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: and bearing my heart, right?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: And trying to find the flow state, right?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And being able to be receptive to that.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: I used alcohol, I think, in the beginning of my career.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, that can make you messy on stage.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's about, like, You've got to try to find the balance.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And if you mess up, then you can be messy.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I find that it's just so much easier to actually...
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And this is also, I'm speaking now from a really long life of experience on stage.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I can handle those nerves a lot more than I could when I was a little girl, right?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: When I was young.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: But nonetheless,
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: I do feel like it's a different experience performing without having drinks
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: before you get up on stage.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: It makes for a difference.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And also in the writing,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: because the other,
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: misconception,
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Is that alcohol or drugs can be conducive to
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: achieving that flow state
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: and writing something very special or miraculous.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not necessary.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the best way to find it.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And as you mentioned,
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely have found that reducing it has given me More energy and more clarity.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I, so, yeah,
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: I have so many questions,
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: but we can like walk back,
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: like walk us back when,
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: like you started early,
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: like when did you start drinking and what did that look like?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, gosh.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I had a really tumultuous childhood, as you sort of touched on in your introduction.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know where to begin because there's so many stories,
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: but it was a painful, like so many people, you know, I'm not an original.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I left Boulder, Colorado, where I grew up for New York City to study music and theater.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I went wild.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: I had been rehomed.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that means when you're adopted and then the family
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: that adopted you sends you back and then adopted a second time and then lived
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: in foster homes and had a...
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I went through a lot of different things.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: And when I got to New York,
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: I just let loose and sort of,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think that a little bit that was my way of dealing with everything that had come
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: before.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, I started performing.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: I started performing.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: The first gig that I had that was a paid gig was I was still in Colorado and on my own.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, of course, I performed with choirs, as you mentioned, stuff like that as a soloist.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: But My actual gig is mine.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was like 15 years old, I guess, and wasn't drinking for that.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then I made it to New York and that's where I just really went
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And this is New York in the 90s.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was a whole different place, the end of the 80s and the beginning of the 90s.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of creativity,
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: and it was really a beautiful time there,
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: despite all the garbage and how dirty the city was and crime-ridden and the rest
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: of it.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was also fecund.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there was so much creativity and beauty there.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah,
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: so that's when I bought into this idea that,
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know, you need to be a real tortured artist, you need drugs and alcohol.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that was when I was in, you know, I went there, I moved there when I was 19.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I was there until I was 24.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd say I was messed up most of that time.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was drinking or doing some drugs.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Cocaine was huge at the time.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I bought all in.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then...
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: I got a job in the south of France performing, singing, and I had to up my game.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: So then I was already sort of finding my way to
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: reining it in.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Although I didn't really,
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: really rein it in until I was in my,
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm 60 now, and I didn't really rein it in until I was in my 40s.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Does that answer your question?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: I lost track of your question.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, no, it was.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: It was, yeah.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: I was just wanting to know a bit of the history of when you started and such.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean,
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think too,
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: especially in New York or really anywhere,
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: especially the music culture of most of the venues and the time that you start
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And often you're in bars that
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: are just, everybody's drinking.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's all part of the culture often, unless you're doing theater work, you know?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, yeah.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so, I mean,
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: especially when you're surrounded by it,
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: and everybody,
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: it's like, Everybody's doing it, so... And it feels like a normal thing to do.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to, like... Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's... Yeah, and it almost feels like...
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: It almost feels like you'd be banished out of, like, a pack by saying no, you know?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's so true.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's so true.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like...
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: You're not a real artist.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're so right.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're so right about that.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that silly?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that ridiculous?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: The same thing with smoking cigarettes, which I don't do anymore.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like,
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: the thing that you do while you're waiting for the gig to start is you have a drink
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: and a cigarette.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Or when you're waiting to break down the stage and put everything away at the end.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Or you're just trying to come down from the high of being on stage.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's always a reason.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the thing with alcohol.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's always a reason to
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: imbibe if you look for one, right?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's not only the struggle, it's the celebration.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's everything.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, whatever, there's always an excuse.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's always an excuse.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: I live in Italy,
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: which is why,
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: as I said,
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sober,
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: because I live in Italy and there's wine,
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know, but it's no longer a daily thing.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead, sorry.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, that's okay.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: I am...
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so you told me that you noticed the difference between...
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: You said that it could get messy on stage and that you notice a difference
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: when you don't drink when you're performing.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Can you elaborate more on what that feeling
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: is like?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think...
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, being on stage is frightening, as I mentioned.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the...
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the drinking is supposed to also help you to ignore the mistake or whatever.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because we do.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's really,
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: really hard to have a perfect performance every single time you go on stage,
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: especially if you perform as often as we do.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's so many things happening.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: But messy, when I was talking about messy, there's lots of things that can happen.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: You can be less precise with your notes, with your intonation.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: You can stumble over words.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Your tongue gets thick, and maybe you're not as precise with your words.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And again,
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think, I mean,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a professional,
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: and as I said,
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: I've been doing this for a long time,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: so I don't think that these are necessarily,
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: in my case, things that you're going to see.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm going to feel them,
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: and that's going to be one of those mistakes that could derail my performance.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so I do notice that drinking less, there's less of that.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's like one more thing that you have to think about.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's one more error that you have to avoid that you can just easily avoid by not drinking.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Why torture yourself like that?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's more about like,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: so now I think a lot of people before they go on stage,
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: we all have a sort of routine.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe, I guess, talismanic sort
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: of routine that you do to feel good.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so replace that alcohol with meditation.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's just something that I always do before I go on to state.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I breathe, get into a space, find that flow state that you're looking for.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because you do,
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: you want to be as open as you possibly can so that you can give As much as you can
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: to your audience.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so to do that, I guess some of the best ways are that, to meditate.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: I have my tea, which feels good on my throat when I'm going to go on and sing.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm well hydrated.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: I try to sleep well the night before.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: If I can't get enough sleep, then have a nap.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing wrong with a good nap.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God, naps all day.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so those kinds of things.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then also this seems silly,
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: but also what you're wearing,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: to have clothing on that feels good,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: have the jewelry that makes you feel protected and safe.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: All of these things are such a great replacement for alcohol.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing that alcohol can do for a singer is dry out your vocal cords.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: So then you're fighting against that as well.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Unless you're Yeah.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Are going to find it harder to reach certain notes.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about the quality of the voice.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's about your ability to perform properly.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing this with my hands.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: This represents my vocal cords.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: They're in my throat like this.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: When you sing, what they do is they vibrate against each other.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Then they open up a little bit and air comes through.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So if they're dry, they have problems when they close and open.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: They stick, and you don't have as
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: much control.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you're probably going to get stuck by,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you said fumbling with the words and such, right?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's going to be like you hit the wall because it's not opening up.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Properly.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then, I think stumbling over words is more like just the thickness of your tongue.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you drink too much,
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: people are slurring and that kind of sign.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm thinking about that kind of thick tongue, which...
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: You want to be precise when you're singing.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: You want to have an excellent producer.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, everybody's different.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm talking about my style personally, about how I sing.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: I tend to enunciate a lot, try to enunciate well.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's not everybody's style,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: but my particular style is I like it when the audience can hear what I'm talking
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: about, what I'm saying.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to pop over here to the chat that says,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: EG says,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: do you think that alcohol ads are using propaganda
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: against accurate medical information about the toxicity of alcohol?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Does that contribute to people not knowing about how alcohol damages the human body
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: and normalizing it?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's an interesting question.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: It is an interesting question.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't trust.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: I would say probably, but I don't know.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: in regards to advertising and such,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think businesses are always going to advertise towards the positive,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know, and make it seem normal, you know, because their bottom line is...
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Dependent upon us consuming.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, look at cigarettes and the history of Of how advertising was for that
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: and how long we were deceived about whether that,
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know, told that they weren't going to do the harm that they do.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a good example.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so interesting you say that,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: too, because it's like you don't see commercials with people like smoking.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: They used to.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Used to be really common.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: And in the 40s, the 30s and the 40s, it was advertised as something cool.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Also, all the movie stars were doing it.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's some statistics somewhere of people in the film industry and movie stars of
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: that epic that there's a crazy amount who died from cancer
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: because they were just smoking all the time.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: I remember like being in restaurants and being like, which section do you prefer to sit in?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Even on the plane, on the airplane.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: In bars.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you what,
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: when they finally,
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: and it was later here in Italy,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: but when they finally banned smoking in bars where all the singers were like,
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: hallelujah.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're on stage
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: and you're like,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: every time you take a big breath,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: All you do is an inhaling smoke and your eyes are burning and yeah.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, it's not, it's, it's, it's worse too, right?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Cause it's the second hand that's supposedly worse than, than if you're doing it yourself.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Wild.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's crazy.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: For the better.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: At least sometimes things have changed for the better,
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: but since we do have that, that, The propensity for the bottom line, like you said.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think there could be studies that are out there about
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: the toxicity of alcohol,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: of which we're unaware.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's possible.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean,
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've guessed recently that Neuroscientist,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: she was talking about how inflammation happens in the body.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: It happens in the brain as well.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And two,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: it was so interesting listening to her in that
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: alcohol will affect how your brain
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: and your body receives it based off of the type of mood that you're in as well.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so it goes deep.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: It really does.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: It really affects so many different things.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the inflammation that it causes in the brain can last a very long time.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's even just from a few drinks.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: No, go ahead.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're going somewhere.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was, but I want to go with your question.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Go, go, go.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: I just find it all really interesting.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, we could talk about so many different things.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so, okay, so, yeah,
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: there's the, the, the,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: the alcohol,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: the alcoholic that,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know, is creative and needs, needs alcohol or drugs in order to be creative.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, too, it, um, You're tapping into something different.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Read my mind.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly where I was going with this.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: I know that you said you meditate and such.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're going inward to tap into... Something else.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so feel free to let us know what that's like for you.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: So meditation, I mean...
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't need to describe that.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of people who do it,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: but it's certainly, it's about quieting
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: the voices, the imposter.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like sometimes,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: somebody, you sit down at the keyboard, or you sit down to write and think,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: What am I doing?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: What could I possibly have to say that somebody else,
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: why am I, it seems kind of arrogant, right?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: To think that you could be the author of something like this.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: So meditation for me is a way of just quieting that voice
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: and searching for
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: The nugget of truth that you want to share.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's something that I said in an interview years ago that I repeat all the time,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: but I feel like it's,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: I repeat it because I feel like it's really true and something that is a bit of
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: an essence of why I do this.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it feels like this.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: It is about capturing the ephemeral and gifting it.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: You're trying to find something that is inexpressible.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: And speaking about that inexpressible and trying to express your inner landscape,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: this old adage that every man is an island, every woman is an island.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's true.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody can ever crawl inside your brain and know exactly who you are and what you're thinking.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: But the closest you can come to that, I think, is art.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: In all of its forms of expressing that sort of inner landscape.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I'm looking to do.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking for the thing that's the most honest.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm also reflecting what I see.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: And each of each of us.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: All of the intersections of,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: a Black American woman who was adopted,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: who grew up in a predominantly white town,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: who's traveled,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: all the things that are me make for a very unique viewpoint,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: as each of ours does, right?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we are all Writing about love and sex and children and peace and war and all
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: of these big themes, but they are all individual through our own experiences.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: So the more that we can...
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Really go into the inside of ourselves and be open to whatever comes up, the better it is.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where meditation for me is useful.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Also, I think that there's so many aspects to songwriting,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: but one thing that I think the songs that resonate for people and that are the songs
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: that I'm most proud of are the ones that
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Have just a huge, not huge necessarily, but that have truth.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: That have truth in whatever that,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to explain that to you,
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: but something that resonates that there's no hiding from.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think alcohol confuses that process.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: How do you hear it?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: How does that truth resonate if you've got this thing and this fog in front of it?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact,
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: I've never been,
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: I've never subscribed to the fact that to write is when you need,
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: maybe when I was really young,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: when I was like 18 or 19,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: I was like,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, I'm going to write and I'm going to have a drink, whiskey while I'm doing it.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: But other than that age,
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: when I got serious about writing,
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was never somebody who wanted to drink when I was writing.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I was, when I'd be going on stage, I did want to drink before I went on stage for years.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I mean, like you...
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: If alcohol is one of those things where it quiets the imposter,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: it's like, well,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: if you didn't drink and you got curious about where that imposter is coming from,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: what happens when you sit and you ask those questions?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a whole
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: different conversation.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: and then you unpack things that maybe there's a voice that's trying to be heard,
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: and then you open up.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Into something more deeper within that.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's so true.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's so true, Josh.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's another interesting thing.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Before internet,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of songwriters know this to be true,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: that there'd be people writing songs on different parts of the planet, right?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: And speaking about the same themes, not necessarily topical, or finding a similar melody, right?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: So there is this idea that there is like this highway of creativity that you can tap into.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like the stuff that comes to me in dreams, right?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like it comes from someplace outside of myself.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: The very best song, well,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: not the very best,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: but some of the songs that I love are the songs that come from Almost entirely,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: it feels like it's not me.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like I'm a vessel for that thing.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: And again, how do you hear that?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: How can you be receptive to that if you are drinking?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because you don't know what you, you don't have your antenna in the same way.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: to you?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're altering your state of being.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly as a regular thing, I think it can only worsen.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: It totally makes it worse because it's whatever you're feeling in
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: that emotional state when you're drinking is just going to amplify it later.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: But then it's too, it's like you're building this, I don't know, This need for it.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so you keep reading it.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Mike here says,
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: when I drink,
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: my emotions seem a lot closer to the surface, especially while listening to music.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Not always negative or bad emotions, but they always seem to take you too far.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: They're easier.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: They're sort of easier to get to.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's why it's such a dangerous thing, right?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than doing the work of just settling and opening yourself up to it.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes so much sense.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I mean, I'm a big advocate of meditation.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Are you?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Doing it for, yeah, for...
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: Over 10 years, I have some tracks on Insight Timer as well and some guided practices.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to have to look those up.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'll send you links.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, please do.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: And people have access to,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: it's a paid subscription, but I have multiple guided practices and such.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's not something that I've ever published, but I've done it for years.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Students,
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: when I have my mentees who are looking for a creative path,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: I will guide them on meditation.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm interrupting you.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you had a thought.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: No, go for it.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I've written a piece here on Substack about this mentor I had.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Her name was Rita Cotter.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember the name of the piece, but it's easy to find on my Substack.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: And in it, I talk about, that's when I discovered meditation.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: I was 15 years old and it was in my drama, high school drama class.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: And as I mentioned previously,
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was the only, or one of the very few black people in my high school.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a very artistic high school.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: And this woman created...
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I had the distinct sensation of leaving my body and looking down.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: I know it sounds woo-woo, but I'm telling you it happened.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And looking down on all of the other students in the room and on my own body.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: sense of peace was just enormous.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I have not stopped meditating since that day.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's so cool.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean,
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: one of the things I started offering with The Sober Creative is once
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: a month we do this.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: I just started it last month.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's called The Clear Hour.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's basically where anybody can join.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we come together and just make something, you know, and just create it.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter what it is, it'll be good.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I open up the practice with a guided, like, creative meditation.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so it- That's so great.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it grounds you in this space.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like, okay, now go ahead and make something and just be present for it.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Creating something.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Before this thing did not exist and now it is in the world.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I love about creation, right?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: If I had not done this thing, it wouldn't be here.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great practice that you're doing.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's wonderful.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean it.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: We're born out of creation,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: and I think a lot of people probably think that they're not creative and such,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: and so I just think that that's another imposter syndrome that's playing.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, agreed.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: And agreed also that meditation is such a great way to tap into and find that creativity.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a great fan of it.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also a great fan of, and you probably know about this, about just subconscious writing.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's the idea of the morning pages, which is just, yeah, you get up, you write three pages.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you can see behind me.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: These are all notebooks of words.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, there we go.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: They're all songs and they can't possibly be, they're not all published.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: But just the practice of,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: and I think also we're so attached to our screens now,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: the idea of getting up and
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: getting your notebook and just writing.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you can see this.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: This writing, these are all just scribblings.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: They're not things that I'm going to publish.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: They're just my random letting myself go.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's another great way of getting rid of the imposter because
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: as you do this writing, you don't allow yourself to criticize.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: You don't think about punctuation.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: You don't think about which voice you're using,
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: what pronouns you're using, what person you're using.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Is it first?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Is it third?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Who's speaking?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: You just...
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Write whatever comes to mind.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a great way of cleaning your mind,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: doing those three pages in the morning to then open yourself up to be creative.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, especially like starting out your day too.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess you could do it at any point.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you could do it anytime.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: I do it usually when I wake up,
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: but you can also do it before you write,
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: before you decide,
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: I want to create something, I want to do something, even if it's not writing.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: You can sit down and do that first before you begin whatever it is
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: that you're trying to produce.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's another way of getting rid of that imposter syndrome or that critic
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: without having to drink to do it.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because I mean, I would almost see it being beneficial too of like later on in the day.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because I mean, it's like typical, like five o'clock comes around.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like that craving kind of comes up.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really good day to calm the system, the nervous system.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's true.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great idea.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I mean,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: like with meditation, it's, you know, the breathing is the parasympathetic.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: You're calming,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: even though it's like you're learning to be with those thoughts
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: that are uncomfortable and you just let them classify them.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because life is paradox.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're so afraid to be uncomfortable and to sit with that.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's so difficult.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: We aren't made to.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, life is not just...
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: It would be lovely if it were, but it's not just sunshine and flowers.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also a part of our growth process.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like all the hard times that we go through, when we come in on the other side, we've grown.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: We are different people.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: If we allow ourselves to feel it and live it.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: And if we don't, then we're stifled and stymied and small.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: you can't,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, a cliche term, you can't have the light without the darkness, you know?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's true.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's a universal experience that we're all going to go through.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it does, like, I think, though, it's really interesting in that
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: It feels so much harder when you're struggling through a thought or an experience.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's like when you're in a good mood and everything seems flowing, it's much easier.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like shit hits the fan and it's like I don't know what I'm doing with my life.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: It feels much more intense and a bit lonely versus like,
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: but like in that moment thinking Like I'm not the only one that's experiencing this.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like everybody, everybody experiences this.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's comfort.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's comfort in that.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Without,
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: without though not acknowledging your own,
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: like you're allowed to have your pain as well.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like you don't, we don't need to externalize it.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, this is, this is difficult.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is hard.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and though,
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: and other people have gone through it and that is,
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: there is comfort in that,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: but there's also,
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's also important just to,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: just to sit with it and, and, and acknowledge it and realize it.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's, it's so hard to do.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's, it sounds easy to the way we're talking about it.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but, and there's so many things, I mean, there's illness, right.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: Which is not, that's such a hard, a hard thing to deal with.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, There's all the past traumas that we've all had.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's so funny because where is this perfect childhood?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think everybody that I know has some sort of traumatic thing that happened to them
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: in their childhood.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's no hierarchy of pain, right?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that we all, at some point or another, have to deal with.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, finding tools, ways that we can do that.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the other thing that is helpful to me in that kind of a state,
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: and it's not just because I'm a musician or maybe this is why I'm a musician,
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: but is music.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's another great comfort that can take me,
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: that can help me to think about the thing, whatever the thing is.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: In a way that is more bearable.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do find that,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: especially if I'm working out, if I put on a track, it's going to push me harder.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think Jeff mentioned in our conversation that
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: I guess there's certain types
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: of music, though, that you can listen to that kind of feeds...
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: The negative aspect.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, sure.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's, I guess, hard to pick up on that.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Make those choices.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's true.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, again, this is about practice and being mindful about how you live your life.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a part of it, too.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: And being cognizant and trustful of your body's intuitions.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: You can feel it when things are good,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: when it's something that's going to be helpful if we listen to it.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Something happened to me recently where I hadn't listened to my intuition.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was so mad at myself because I was like,
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: gosh darn it, I knew this was not a good idea and I did it anyway.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think it's really essential for us.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think meditation, again, is helpful in that direction as well.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because if we are meditating,
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: we are attuning ourselves to this idea of trusting what we're feeling and entering
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: into that.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's all part and parcel of the same thing.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, well, let's see.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think, I wish we could go for like another hour.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: I know, because I wanted to talk to you more about your own experiences.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: To dive into what's happening with your life.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we'll do it again another time.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, no, no.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we can come on yours if you have one or something.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've never...
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't done it, but you could be my first.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'd love that.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so ridiculously busy right now.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's insane.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: It just gets worse every year.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's one more learning curve, one more thing to do.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: I did have a podcast with...
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: A woman called Dion Draper that's out,
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: you can still hear it,
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: called DATA, which is D-A-W-T-A, which was about the transracial adoptee experience.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: So transracial adoptee means a person who was adopted by somebody from a different race, right?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, exploring that.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I did do a podcast with that, which was really fun and I enjoyed it.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I've got enough writing my albums,
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: performing my albums,
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: looking for gigs,
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: marketing the things,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: writing on Substack,
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: recording the stuff because I like to have my own voice on the thing.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's never, never ending.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it's fun to come on other people's Substack's.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm so glad that you did.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it was such a great conversation.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate your time.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate the invitation.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, really kind of you.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was nice that Jeff sent me a nudge to reach out to you.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate it, Jeff.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you've got wonderful, wonderful, calming, wonderful energy.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: I really, really enjoyed talking to you.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: I could keep talking to you for another hour easily, easily.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to let everybody know what's next?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned before that I performed at Carnegie Hall.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: I did that in July.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going back.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be there on November 13th and tickets are already on sale.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: I am a guest of my wonderful friend who's also here on Substack.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: Her name is Charu Suri.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: So if you look for Charu Suri in Carnegie Hall,
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: you'll find And I will be doing that on November 13th.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to New York also on the 1st of October, and I will be there for six days.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going for the launching of a book and to support my friend Phoebe Boswell.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I will also be going into the Recording Academy because I have a...
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: An album that is up for recording members consideration.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: So if anybody out there is a Recording Academy member,
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: I've got an album that's up there for you to consider.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you can find that on my website.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: I guess that's enough.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: Is your music on Substack?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Spotify?
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: My music is anywhere you listen.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's on Spotify.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: The best place to support me would be Bandcamp.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: Bandcamp, okay.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's where you actually, if you buy music there, we actually get something from it.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: We used to have the model of make an album,
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: sell the album at concerts, and then with those proceeds, make a new album.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: That business model is defunct.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: It does not, because nobody buys it.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: People aren't buying while you're there.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: So if there's an artist that you like and you really want to support them,
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: the way you can do that is through...
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of great, great music on there.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, you can stream my music anywhere.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: Under my name, Lisa Marie Simmons.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: Super easy to find.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Lisa, thanks so much.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you again, Josh.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate it.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: I really, really appreciate it.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks, everyone.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now I have to go through all of your stuff.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's questions I want for you too.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: When I have free time, go and dig through some more on your work.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: But what I have seen and read,
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: like I said at the top of the show,
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: really important work and really beautiful.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you so much.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'll continue to say it because every guest,
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're my 70th now, and every single guest has just provided...
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: So much gold.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and it's, yeah, I mean, every person's story is so unique in their journey.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just so interesting to hear their perspective and to be able to share that with others.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's how we learn the most is when we listen and hear other people's stories.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm all about storytelling.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's how we learn empathy.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's how we grow.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: Storytelling is everything.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so sharing these experiences is that.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard for us to say goodbye.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: You'll just fly over here from Italy and hit my end button.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining us, everyone.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: And wishing y'all a good weekend.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa, you too.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll see you next week.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, everybody, so much for being here.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll see you around.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's a tiny world.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.