Latest / The Bridges and Beacons Podcast / The Last Act of Love: Rethinking How We Grieve with Kelly Daugherty

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The Last Act of Love: Rethinking How We Grieve with Kelly Daugherty · The Bridges and Beacons Podcast

• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Bridges and Beacons Podcast.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Kelly Meyerson.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: And on this episode, I'm really happy to have someone super special with us today.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Kelly Dharty is a fellow in Thanatology.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: She's a grief specialist trainer and author.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: She helps individuals and professionals navigate grief after the death of a loved one through innovative programs, workshops, and groups.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Kelly is passionate about fostering resilience, connection, and practical coping skills rooted in genuine understanding of grief.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Kelly, thank you so much for joining me today.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to be here.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I love this conversation because I think until a few years ago, I don't feel like a lot of people were really talking about grief.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think my own personal experience with grief was people can kind of their tolerance for your grieving is short term.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's understandable as somebody's life is coming to an end.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's understandable as they've just passed and through the service.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then it starts to dwindle, and people have a little less tolerance for you not bouncing back and being who you were prior to losing someone.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Is that you're shaking your head?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like is that something that you've heard a lot from people?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I've actually experienced it even myself.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm coming up on the one-year anniversary of my dad's death.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: So going through this grief experience has been quite interesting as a grief counselor.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And to see, you know, I've always I've always heard all these stories, and obviously I experienced it even as a teenager after my mom died.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: But like I've always clients clients will come in if they're like very recent grief and they're like, oh, everybody's great.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I hate to say, but I'm always like, oh, just give it six months.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and sometimes I know I don't say that out loud, but I sometimes I do, and I'm like, I hate to say that, but that's the reality.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll come back and they're like, You were right.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Yeah, I know.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: I hate to, I hate that I am right about that, but there is.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I remember one of my clients talked about she had a best friend and she was great in the beginning.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then at one point, like a few months into her grief experience, her best friend said to her, She said, Okay, I've been there long enough.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's time to get over this.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And she was heartbroken because this was her best friend.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, wait a minute, how why is there, first of all, a timeline on grief?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we do as a society, you know.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look at what we have for time off from work, right?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: You get your three days off of bereavement leave and you're expected to come back to work right away and be okay.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not the reality of what grief looks like.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's so true.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think until you've had a substantial loss like that of a parent, I think you don't really understand what that feels like and what the experience is like.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And if if you're super in tune with yourself, which I I noticed going through the loss of my mom almost four years ago now, like you realize like I'm not, I'm not feeling like I'm ready to exit the the sort of very raw emotions and unexpected emotional waves that happen when you've lost someone.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like it's almost like abandoning the grief means abandoning them.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something that people will say?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and so I I'm glad you bring this up because I literally have a picture over here next to me.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I've kind of wanted to take it down, and I'm gonna read it to you, and then we can chat about it because it's really kind of goes a line.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: It says, Grief is the last act of love we have to give to those we loved, which I like that.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with that.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: But then the next part says, where there is deep grief, there was great love.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think unfortunately, we have this like we have to grieve with pain.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: We have to have this deep grief in order to prove that we loved this person.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, we can grieve, and we talk about it on my podcast with Karen and I, we talk about like grieving with love instead.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like you don't have to have this deep pain all the time.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think we have moved to the society almost like it's okay that you're not okay always.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also okay if you have moments where you are okay.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think grief shifts and evolves and it's not linear, it's not predictable.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And there's gonna be some days where you're feeling okay.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that's you're allowed to feel okay.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: You're allowed to enjoy have love and joy.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean that it takes away from your grief or takes away from your connection to your loved one.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what I, my goal really is with my clients.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: We get so stuck on the death, especially on the ending, especially if it's traumatic.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: But even if it wasn't traumatic, we still are focused on the ending and that we can't focus on our loved ones' life.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: We can't focus on the love that we had with them, the connection we shared with them, the joy they brought into our lives.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And like for me, it was a big turning point in my grief experience with my mom is when I made that shift to like focusing more on the gratitude.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: The gratitude that I, you know what?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I had her for 14 years of my life.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm grateful that I got to have her for those 14 years.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I learned so much from her in those 14 years, but I've also learned so much from her in her death and in my own grief.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I continue to learn from my mom, I feel like, and I'm gonna continue to be grateful for she made me who I am today in so many ways.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's so insightful.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: I really love that.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think the the quote that you have is is so true.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and unfortunately, there's really no way to like adequately measure that and and layer it on each person.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: So the reality for most people is going to be you you have those few days off and that time, and then it's like reintegrating your life without that person in it.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: That can be hard.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's like all of the all the gaps that all of a sudden show up.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what's interesting, like as I think about the last year with my grief with my dad, the mo the times where it's like Father's Day sucked, my birthday sucked.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: And just the past few weeks, obviously, leading up to the anniversary has been really hard.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's been a lot of ups and downs with that.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's really interesting when I kind of look back for the last year, like the waves that I've had and the times that like I've been really irritable and like annoyed.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's because my grief has like been bubbling a lot during those times.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely resonate with that.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure so many people do that we start to to mark those moments and anniversaries.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I think it's just maybe some of it feels like it might be our brains trying to process and make sense of it because uh I think that's our that's like our our our nervous system or our body's way of protecting us.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like if something makes sense and I can, you know, now create a little bit of predictability about it, it's not gonna be so bad the next time.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't work.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, it doesn't.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's so true.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's just like with anticipatory grief, right?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: People think, oh, I'm doing all this grief work now, and that when they die, I'm gonna be okay.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, you have no clue.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like it doesn't, it doesn't just erase your and you know, your grief.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's just different.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'd love to go back a little bit in your story, and how did working with grief become something that you were so focused on professionally?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: So when, like I mentioned, my mom died of breast cancer when I was 14, and I really struggled after it.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: And my dad recognized that I was struggling, and and thankfully recognized like we need to get her some support and help.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's interesting.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: My husband and I had this conversation the other day, and I've really never thought about it.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've always thought about it.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I'm in this field because of my mom, right?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: But my husband brought up, he's like, You're really in this field because of your dad.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh, he is like really, he's spot on because it was my dad who was the one who was instrumental in getting me into that hospice grief group.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, it was my mom's death, and that's why I was there, but he is the one that basically forced me to go there.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: I always share, like, I went to an all-girls Catholic high school.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was 15 years old.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: I was boy crazy.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, wasn't around boys.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so my dad was like, they'll be boys at the grief group.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, sign me up.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds good.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I obviously there were no boys at the group because getting teen grief groups off the ground is hard, you know, and especially teen boys to get to come to groups like that.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I walked into that room and my life changed.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: I finally didn't feel alone in my grief and I met an amazing social worker, Rene.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: And after some time of doing my own groups and doing family therapy with my dad, she asked me to start volunteering with the children's programs.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember when I used to go every week for those and and volunteer at those, like feeling the connection I made with those little kids and the difference I was making.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and she'll, you know, Rini will say, Some of those boys wouldn't even come in the room if you weren't there.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew that this is what I wanted to do.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I went to school, became a social worker, and you know, worked at a couple of different hospices in my career.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and now in private practice, I only I only work with grieving clients.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's really my passion, and it's it's why I became a social worker.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Cause I think a lot of times people get into a field and then they're just kind of drawn to one area, but you really like you were ready.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: You were locked in mood, you're like, this is what I'm doing, and it's what you're doing, and that's amazing.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think what makes that so special is that because you're so in alignment with what you feel like your purpose is, that you're really able to be in the position to meet people where they are and invite them into the journey with you.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just I'm so I'm so honored to be able to do the work that I do and to be able to, you know, watch the transitions in people's grief journeys and to see the progress.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, two weeks ago I was I did a grief retreat, and a woman came and she decided the the loss that she wanted to work on was her mom's.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was 54 years before.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And to see the progress and the transformation that happened in this week weekend long retreat for this woman as as she walked away, I was like, This is somebody who's been holding on to this for 54 years.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's a long time.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And to see that that transformation and that change that she made and the her change in perspective of her grief and her relationship with this person, it's just amazing.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so like I can get really emotional thinking about it and like what an honor and what a gift I am that I get to experience that.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not just about what they're experiencing.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one of a colleague of mine, she talks a lot about vicarious resilience, and it is like it's like how I feel because of like what I'm witnessing in my clients, and to see that growth and change in them and how much that fills me up too.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I love that term, vicarious resilience.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm gonna have to take that and run with it because as you're talking, you know, you're working with a lot of children, and you know, I work with children, I work with children with multiple disabilities.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing that people will say to me so frequently is, oh, that must be really hard or must be really sad.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, wow, no, actually, every day is so much fun, and I'm discovering, you know, what these children are capable of and they always blow me away.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: I now I just expect miracles because they always find a way and it's amazing.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think that vicarious resilience is is like it's almost like a drug in the very like best possible way.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: But when you see them accomplish and you see them overcome barriers that you think they couldn't, it really is so good for the soul.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: It really makes me feel excited and motivated to keep doing it.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Do you do you relate to that?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like I can think back to some of the retreats that I've done and the grief camps, and like it just like I can feel so emotional about it because it was so amazing and magical.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and I know people are thinking like grief, like that can't be, but it is, and to see the changes and to just even see these kiddos.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I do grief camp, I volunteer at a local grief camp and I've been there forever.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: But they like to see them on the playground, right?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: They're on the playground, they're like hanging upside down, and they look down at the other one and they're like, Hey, how'd your dad die?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then they have this conversation, and it's like this is what it's about.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: They feel so safe and open and know that they're not alone, to be able to have these connections and to be able to ask each other these things.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is amazing.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it it does, it fills me up.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: I can get very emotional thinking about it because it's just it's amazing there's no other way to describe it, but it is an amazing feeling to be able to be able to allow that space for these kids and adults, and that I'm able to create some really amazing programs to see the transformations.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it's not about me, but it really does it fills me up too.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I feel you on that so much.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's totally not about you, but but in order to sustain your own resilience to continue to do the work and to it, I mean, it's not always easy work.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's it's very hard, and sometimes it is stressful, traumatic, sad.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a whole range of emotions that occur, but like you're saying, the the creation of that safe space where healing is afforded because the kids are not alone.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: They they feel it's okay to open up and to share, and that it's not a taboo subject, which I think is is part of what can be so challenging to reintegrate into your life and to struggle with other people in your life not wanting to continue to be on your grief journey with you.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh last year, I hate to say that I had so many clients on my caseload with this type of loss, but I had several who had had teenage boys die from suicide.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so I decided to do a group very, you know, niche specific, right?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you really can't get any more niche than that.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And what these moms talked about, like there wasn't the stigma, right?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: They knew that they were in a group with other people who got it, they were able to be supported, they formed connections and relationships, and a couple of them still are are quite close.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: And to know that like they didn't have to hold back.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: They just walked into that room and they knew everybody in that room knew what they were going through.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: And just to have that connection, because in our society, there's so much stigma around you know, suicide loss and overdose loss, and people don't always feel comfortable sharing about these types of losses.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then people like, you know, minimize their grief.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a bit of a disenfranchised grief in a lot of ways because they're like, oh, well, you know, they chose their child chose it doesn't like how uh sad and awful that their child thought that that was their only solution.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: But also these are grieving moms and they're heartbroken.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's amazing how our society minimizes their grief.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't feel safe to be able to talk about it, and some of them don't even feel safe in like general grief groups because even in groups, people compare to compare their losses as much as we say not to, people do.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, why do we do that?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Why is that a reflex?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Is it is it to help people feel a little bit better about their own journey?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, well, at least it's not that bad.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think I think we compare because we are in it ourselves and we feel so strong about how we're feeling that how can anybody else's grief be worse than what we're feeling?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: And your worst grief is your own grief, right?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody feels their grief at a hundred percent.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we can't judge, like, you know, we can't minimize what who what the type of loss is, who it was, you know, any of that because we feel it at a hundred percent.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: What I like though is in some of my groups where I'll have someone come to me and they'll they'll they have a really sad story, a really awful one.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then they go to group and they hear someone else's and they come back in and they have so much empathy for the other people in the group, and they're like, I couldn't believe her story.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then that person comes in and says the same thing about that other client.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like the fact that they're able to step outside of their own grief and be able to look and have empathy for others, like it's that's that's amazing and beautiful because we don't always do that, right?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're always focused on what what's going wrong with us and where we're at because our our brains are like velcro to the bad, right?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we want to focus on and think about, but to be able to sometimes have that change in perspective, I think can be really helpful.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that makes absolute sense, and I I love that for the listener who has not heard of grief camps and and counseling and some of the things that you're doing, and they're going through their own grief journey and feeling like they don't have the support that they need.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: What would be some of the first steps to find something like what you're doing where they live?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I mean, uh it's as simple as doing some Google searches.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: You can start with your local hospice.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Most all hospices have to have a bereavement program, varies what they offer, but throughout our country, there's a lot of amazing bereavement programs through hospices.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes uh younger adults don't always feel like they can connect.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so trying to find more of a young adult group could be helpful for the younger listeners.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think the dinner party is a great resource online for younger adults, for children.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: We know that one in 11 children will have a parent or sibling die by the time they're 18 years old.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of grieving kids out there.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of amazing grief programs out there.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you go to the National Alliance for Grieving Children or the or Dougie Center, Dougie.org, you can locate some children's programs.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: There is children's grief camps everywhere.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Some you might just have to drive a little bit, but usually they're weekend long ones or weeklong ones.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: There are some specific type of losses as well for children's grief camps.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of hospices have amazing children's programs as well for adults.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you're looking for a counselor, find somebody who's grief informed.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Not all therapists have grief education.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: 60% of therapists didn't have education and grief and loss in undergraduate or graduate schools.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: So there are a lot of therapists out there still talking about the five stages of grief and not grief informed.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so my recommendation is if you find a therapist, ask them questions like what is your experience with grief and loss?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: What's your philosophy on grief and loss?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: They bring up the five stages.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Find someone else.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, find ask, you know, go on psychology today.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can find grief counselors there.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a specific, like a traumatic loss, you might want to ask about their experience with trauma work because there's a lot of great grief counselors out there, but maybe don't also have the trauma lens.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: And when we're dealing with traumatic grief, we really have to deal with the trauma first before we can even deal with the grief.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: So if they don't Have that trauma training, you're gonna kind of get you're gonna hit some roadblocks and be stuck a little bit.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: There's also amazing books out there.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: You can go to my website, Center for Informed Grief, and find some resources there.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I also obviously have a podcast that Kelly will be on very soon.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's called The Grief Ladies, and it's a guide to what comes next.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And because Karen and I started this, because we do believe there are actionable steps that you can take on your grief journey.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, while everybody grieves differently, there are things that we've been doing this for a long time.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: We know there are things that help.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we've built a grief framework.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so the podcast does offer different resources and tools that can actually help you on your grief journey.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a big believer in grief groups.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think they're amazing.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think we as a society don't grieve together anymore as a community.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: And community is important.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: We do need to come together with other people.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's in a safe space to be able to come together.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so really looking into, I would, like I said, start with your local hospice.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: If that doesn't feel right, look, you know, on psychology today, reach out to me.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm more than happy to try to help you find some resources in your area.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, Karen that does my podcast with, she owns Grief in Common.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that is all a virtual platform online for anyone throughout the world.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's a lot of options for people, which I think is great because not everything is going to resonate with everyone.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I I love that you brought in the piece of being grief informed, potentially trauma informed if if there was some trauma involved.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then of course, the the podcast is another great resource.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: I love that you've created a framework because I think that gives people a place to go and a and a step-by-step way to move through things.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that's what we need.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: We need somebody to tell us, do one, two, three, ABC.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then, like once they get into it, they can figure out, okay, this needs to be different here or different there, but it kind of gets you at least started and not stuck in the contemplation or I don't, I don't even know where to go.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm frozen.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, I love that.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: So what else can you share with us today?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe if you could give us some thoughts on how the grief world, those that are working with people who are grieving or those in communities where people are experiencing grief, what does it look like for us in the future?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: How are we going to take this to a better place and start to really shift and change not just individuals, but like all of humanity?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: I know that's a big ask.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what can you project into the future for us?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: It'd be lovely if that happens.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think the more grief-informed we become as a society, the more we're going to be able to better support grieving individuals.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll move away from the cliched responses that don't help, that actually hurt.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think we struggle with what to say to somebody grieving, right?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we want to have the answers.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: We want to know what to say.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is, as Brene Brown says, rarely does an empathetic response make a difference.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's connection that counts, right?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so it is about connecting with people.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to have the magical words.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody is going to tell me something that's going to take away my grief.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's just not possible.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: For somebody to sit with me and ask me about my loved one and use their name and to be present and be available and remember dates like anniversaries and birthdays and things like that, that's where the difference happens, right?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the more that people can become grief-informed as a whole, the better we're going to be able to support each other.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's, you know, it's, I wish I could say that it's going to happen quickly, but I think so in some ways we've gone backwards with grief.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think in olden days we used to have more traditions.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: We used to have, you know, at-home funerals, we used to, you know, have these rituals in place and we've moved away from them a lot.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, a lot of people don't even have services anymore.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and I don't think that's always helpful.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think we need these rituals.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: We need to come together as a community and grieve.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you are, you know, know somebody that is in your life that's grieving, reach out to them.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, even if they don't respond, just keep reaching out, you know, maybe send them a book on grief.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've been in some grief books, I've been in some grief books.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, give them resources, support, use their loved one's name.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Put it in your phone on the calendar when their loved one's anniversary is and their loved one's birthday is, and check in with them when it's their birthday too, because I don't think we always remember that, but my birthday this year was rough.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: I was surprised at how much grief came up around my birthday this year.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, just keep checking in, be a friend, listen, and stop with the cliched responses.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Don't tell someone what they should or shouldn't be feeling.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, time heals all wounds.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: No, grief isn't something we get over.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's something we learn to live with and integrate into our life.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: We don't get over it.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, uh just kind of, you know, if you want to be more grief informed, do a little bit of research.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's plenty out there of things what to say and what not to say.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I was thinking.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the things that that people say.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and I wonder sometimes if it's not so much that they aren't able to have space for you, it's that sometimes it feels uncomfortable for them and they're trying to manage their own emotional response and their their nervous system.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: And as they feel uncomfortable, they're like, okay, gotta get out of this, you know, and so they're like, let me say something to just like make this stop.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: What what is like the like one like go-to phrase that you can never get wrong for someone?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I love like saying their name and remembering the like what is a go-to phrase that people can practice in the mirror and I feel like well, you know, I mean, it's this is my go-to phrase in sympathy cards.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very picky about sympathy cards, to be completely honest.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like saying I'm sorry because I just I never found that helpful.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, you didn't do anything.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you apologizing to me?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I do I try to focus on the memories.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I my go-to thing that I'll say is that I hope the positive memories of whoever it is, and I try to use their name will help you during your rough moments of your grief.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: And because you know what, that is, I think, my overall goal with my clients is to help them shift their focus from focusing on the death to focusing on their loved ones' life, to remember that love, to remember that connection.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: And when we are able to make that shift, we can grieve with love rather than grieve with pain.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think that that's such a beautiful way to reframe it.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe for some people listening, even to consider that as a possibility that that the experience could be more about the higher states of emotion and love and less about being stuck in the pain.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe when there is all that pain, is that a good indicator of maybe it would be helpful for you to seek somebody to help you process through some of that?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: The counseling or I think pain is is part of grief, right?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Especially, you know, we're going to experience pain.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: We need to lean into grief, we need to feel that grief, right?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: It is a normal natural response to loss.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: I and I don't like timetables.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: I really hate timelines.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: I hate that we even have now a diagnosis that puts a timeline on grief.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, if this is if this is ongoing and this is your ways out and you're still really strong, yes, seek out some help.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Not everybody that's grieving needs grief counseling.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I have people contact me like the day after their loved one dies, and I'm like, okay, you need to breathe a minute.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: You need to feel this a little bit.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay to feel it.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like one of the techniques I'm trained in is called induced after death communication.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't even recommend that you utilize it for at least a year because they want you to feel the sadness.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: They want you to go through all the firsts, you know.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that second year is worse than the first year, and people don't realize that.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like they think they're gonna get through that first year and they're gonna be okay.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then the second year comes and reality sets in that this is your new reality, and it sucks without their without that person.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I think it, I think if there's trauma involved, yes, absolutely seek out counseling.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: You need to process through that trauma.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's if you're only focusing on the ending, if you're having flashbacks or reliving that death scene, even if you didn't witness it, you've created an image in your mind, what you think happened.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Seek out counseling.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I do believe everybody could benefit from a grief group, though, but especially individual counseling.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, it it varies.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's really it's dependent on so many different things.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's super helpful.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you you mentioned induced after death communication.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: I've never heard this.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us a little bit about that?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it is, it was based off of EMDR, which is eye movement, desensitation, and reprocessing.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of the gold standard of trauma treatment.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And Alan Botkin was a psychologist who got trained by Francine Shapiro in EMDR in the 90s, and he was working at the VA, and he started trying to play around with EMDR, make it kind of a little his own.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: And he was doing core-focused EMDR, he was calling it in the beginning, staying with a feeling.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so he found that by staying with the feeling of sadness, these veterans were having after death communications from their loved ones.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so it is a two-session protocol.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: It is research-based, and they're continuing to do really great research on it.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Tom Neme just did some amazing research down in Australia on it.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Someone in Italy did it.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's some really good research to support that this is actually a really great therapeutic technique that works.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: But what happens is it's a two-session protocol, 90 minutes each session.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: First session, you're focusing on the core sadness of the feelings while using bilateral eye movements.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Client is staying with that sadness, not trying to manage it like we usually do, right?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Really feeling it.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Kelly, these are some, these are can be really intense sessions.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're, I mean, even probably some of the most intense sessions that I've facilitated in my career is IDC sessions.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: But what happens is that sadness peaks, and then people come down to feel more at peace, feel more calm, which then makes them more open to having an after-death communication with their loved one.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we know after death communications are naturally occurring.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing we do to force them.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: We're not induced is not a great word.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: I really hate the name of it, to be honest, but we're not forcing it.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: We're allowing it and opening up opportunity.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so about 75% of people will have an ADC during this treatment.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: But even those that don't have tremendous benefit from this protocol from working through that sadness and really feeling it.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the ADC is kind of icing on the cake if it happens.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome and it's amazing.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you some really fun, awesome stories that have happened to my clients and in my office that I've experienced.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: But it's the process of working through the sadness that's so beneficial.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and sometimes it's it causes a bit of a change of perspective too, which can be really beneficial.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: So ADC after death communication.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Just making sure.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've sorry.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: In a profession with so many acronyms.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I totally understand.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: And people are like, wait, what was wait, dial back?
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: What was that acronym?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh my gosh, we have so many.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's uh, I think it's just a feature of the medical and healthcare and education fields.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: We we love an acronym.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I love that.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's so incredible.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder, you know, for somebody who's listening who's who's very attuned spiritually and has sought a psychic to speak to their loved one.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Funny enough, not even in preparation for this podcast, but I just happen to need like some like TV to just kind of sit and veg out a little bit.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I was watching Teresa Caputo.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I love her because she's just like such a personality, but I think she's she's got so much heart.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: And she was shopping in a gardening center in this episode, and she was like, you know, having some like something with her throat and connected with the mother of somebody who worked there and wasn't even an intentional thing, but just kind of tapped into it somehow.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: And for the woman who she spoke to, the the advice that she gave her that was coming through from her mom was like so tremendously healing in that moment for her and exactly what she had been waiting to hear.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I just wonder, is there a link that can be made between, you know, what's happening in these sessions and and what somebody who has, you know, psychic abilities or medium abilities is doing?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think after you go through one of these sessions, you realize you don't have to have ever have to go to a medium again because you can do it yourself.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a we have two mediums in my office.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: I love going to mediums.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: I love, but you know, I love what our medium here says in our office is like my job is to help people realize that they can do this on their own.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to put myself out of business.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that thought, you know, and that belief because the reality is we can connect with our loved ones and we just have to be open.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's that sadness or that anger, that guilt that kind of blocks us from being able to make that connection the way we want.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds like it's not even just the block of being, you know, stuck in the sadness, but it's also the avoidance of actually allowing yourself to be in that emotion and get past the point of like just discomfort and avoidance and settle into it and allow yourself to experience it.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, not manage it.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that I can completely relate to because when you go through a grief journey, there are times where you're like, it is it's kind of inconvenient right now to have like something that triggers, and you're like, oh no, I'm in the middle of this moment and I'm going to experience grief and I don't I don't want to necessarily do that right now.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so like we we kind of I don't know, I have kind of a radical thought about that.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: That when we can be brave and courageous and vulnerable and say to somebody, oh my gosh, right now I'm just like this just hit me all of a sudden.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think more people can relate to that than not, and that pushing down of emotions.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I I've had a lot of conversations with people on my podcast about that and how we kind of lock those emotions in our bodies, and it can be really helpful to release them.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just it's funny to me.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: The last episode that I had, my guest Tammy has a practice that she uses with people called silent counseling, and it really I was listening to that.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, good, is I she first of all, she's amazing.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: I was just like obsessed just to be in her aura, but I was just so fascinated by that because it it did not require the the cognitive function and the replaying and the imagery and stuff, and really sort of takes that healing process out of the mind and into the body.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I I thought that was such a nice and and healing option for so many people to go through that.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think where I'm going with this is that so many people have those stuck emotions.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and and I and not feeling through the feelings can often be why that happens.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and grief is so physical.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a great, really great book called The Grieving Body, and it just talks about what happens in our body when we're grieving.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I think all of my clients have TMJ, you know, jaw issues, and so many, you know, increased vulnerability to illness.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I can't believe how many times I got a cold last winter.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't usually get them, and I had, and I I know it was grief.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was like my inflammation levels were higher.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was I was grieving and it was in my body, a lot of it.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so, but we do have to let it out.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was talking with one of my best friends the other day, and her dad died a few years before mine.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, the number of times I've cried in the grocery store.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Oh yeah.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I have cried in Walmart more times than I can count this past year.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like I see sunflower seeds and I burst into tears, like, my dad loves sunflower seeds, you know, like we don't know when it's gonna hit us, but it's okay to also let it out when it does.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I just did I do a running program.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's uh called Healing Strides.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: The first hour is a grief group, and the second hour we train for a 5K race.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the seven weeks, we all run a 5K together.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: And last Saturday was our goal race, and it was a veterans run.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so my dad was a veteran.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so I got to the start line, was there with all everybody.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's an always an exciting and emotional day, but like a good emotion.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like I always feel really excited about, you know, it's just amazing.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: Race day.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I just burst into tears.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't like a little sob.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: It was like a it was like it was a full sob.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was oh, like, and thankfully, my my coach, you know, running coach was standing next to me, and her mom died not only a few months before my dad, and she just came over and hugged me.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like I was met with that connection, right?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what's important is to that she was able to be there for me.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then obviously I had to get my my stuff back in so I could be there for my participants to help her cross the finish line.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you know.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it comes out and it and it's okay to let it out, and we have to let it out.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: We do, and I think that's what's so amazing about the induced after death communication is because we're allowing that space, we're allowing them to truly let the feelings out and the sadness out.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, some of these sessions have been so like I'm like, oh my gosh, are we ever gonna get to that other side?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: But we do.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: And to see the progress and to hear what these people say following these sessions, it's unbelievable it's life-changing, truly.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I want to just thank you so much because I feel that you've touched on so many facets of grief and you've offered a myriad of ways people can help someone who's grieving support themselves or a family member.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that you brought in some amazing research and and things that are out there.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because as a as a science nerd, I love a research study.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for bringing those up as well.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to just give you a moment to just let people know where they can find you, how they can connect with you.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, we'll have lots in the in the show notes so that they can also check out the podcast, which I think is such a great resource as well.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, my probably the easiest way to find me is Kellydorerty.com, and that will link you to both my private practice website as well as my Center for Informed Grief website.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: And check out the Grief Ladies, a guide to what comes next.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's on available on all major podcast platforms and YouTube and thegriefladies.com.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: We do have some events coming up and some different workshops, so check it out.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um, just to know that you're not alone in this grief journey.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we also have a free Facebook community.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's a private community, the grief ladies community.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: It is open to men and women.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're just the grief ladies, but um but that can be a nice added resource if you're looking for some extra support to join.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for being here, Kelly.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I appreciate your your courage and vulnerability and sharing your own grief journey.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I I appreciate what you're doing because this work is so meaningful and really leading to people having so much more joy and resiliency and connection in their lives.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think the word of the podcast is connection.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think for the listener, if you're somebody experiencing a grief journey, where can you find that connection for yourself?
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're someone who knows people or someone in your life, how can you, you know, connect with them a little bit more and be available for their support?
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: As always, everything will be in the show notes.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if there was something that spoke to you, absolutely connect with Kelly.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure you check out the podcast.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to thank you again for being here.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Any last words of wisdom?
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, I just want to thank you, Kelly.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: I the I'm so glad that we're able to have this discussion and just want to let all the listeners know that your grief is valid and you don't have to grieve alone.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: There are supports out there, and you know, reach out if there's anything I can do to help support you on your grief journey.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: And thanks everyone for listening.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll see you next time.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: Bye for now.