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Donald vs. Ronald · Pod Save America

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: I'm Jon Lovett.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:24
  Speaker 4: On today's show, Donald Trump hits the campaign trail and
• 0:27
  Speaker 4: his potential rivals. Democrats revive their calls for police reform
• 0:30
  Speaker 4: after the murder of Tyree Nichols. State Department Counselor Derek
• 0:34
  Speaker 4: Chalet talks to Tommy about the latest in Ukraine. And later,
• 0:38
  Speaker 4: we try to decipher some Fox News rants in a
• 0:40
  Speaker 4: new game called.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: What Are They Mad About?
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: What are they mad about? What are they mad about
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: this time?
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: We're going to find out. We're going to find out.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: All right, let's get to the news.
• 0:49
  Speaker 4: The 2024 Republican primary has begun, and it already feels
• 0:53
  Speaker 4: like 2015 again. Donald Trump, the twice-impeached loser of the
• 0:57
  Speaker 4: 2020 election who's under investigation for multiple crimes that include
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: an attempted coup and a violent insurrection, kicked off his
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: third presidential bid over the weekend with a pair of small,
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: low-energy events in New Hampshire and South Carolina where he
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: announced some endorsements, talked about his potential rivals, and played
• 1:14
  Speaker 4: the hits during his hour-long rambling speeches.
• 1:18
  Speaker 5: And we need a president who is ready to hit
• 1:20
  Speaker 5: the ground running.
• 1:21
  Speaker 6: On day one.
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: And I hear, boy, am I hitting the ground.
• 1:23
  Speaker 5: They said, he's not doing rallies.
• 1:25
  Speaker 7: He's not campaigning.
• 1:26
  Speaker 5: Maybe he's lost that step. We didn't.
• 1:29
  Speaker 7: I'm more angry now and I'm more.
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: Committed now than I ever was.
• 1:32
  Speaker 5: And I have a lot of competition.
• 1:33
  Speaker 7: We had no competition.
• 1:34
  Speaker 5: And I don't think we have competition this time either,
• 1:37
  Speaker 5: to be honest. You know, they're very good fighters, the Taliban,
• 1:39
  Speaker 5: but they never fight at night because they don't have binoculars.
• 1:42
  Speaker 5: They want mandatory stoves. And people that are cooks, I'm
• 1:46
  Speaker 5: not much of a cook, but the cooks are.
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: Saying gas is better. Bing, bing, boom.
• 1:51
  Speaker 5: I wanted to see whether or not I could award
• 1:53
  Speaker 5: myself as president of the Congressional Medal of Honor. I
• 1:56
  Speaker 5: think of the United States every day as April Fool's Day. Investigation, investigation.
• 2:01
  Speaker 5: I've been going through it for seven years.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: What was bing, bing, boom? I don't know.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: I watched that. He's back, guys. He's back.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he is. He is back. Now, in fairness to Mr. Trump,
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: The part where he says he deserved the Congressional Medal
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: of Honor, he was joking.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: He was joking, yeah.
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: He was saying that for being brave when Air Force
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: One landed in Iraq. He was joking that he had
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: been brave.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: Man, not a lot has changed.
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: Could you guys detect any sort of message or strategy
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: in either of these speeches? Or is this just the
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: same shit we've been hearing for the last eight years?
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: I would say it was 90% a Greatest Hits album.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump legend.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: You got to play that. You go to a Donald
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Trump show, you got to hear that.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: You got to hear, yeah, you got to hear all
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: the best. He does incorporate every stupid culture war fight.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: So the gas stove bit, as we heard, new culture
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: war just dropped. He had to get that in there.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: There was a rant about electric vehicles and how everyone's
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: going to run out of power on the highway and
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: get stuck on the freeway.
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: He was very funny. He was like, you're on the highway,
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: you're looking for a plug. Which is like, really is like,
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: he is just sort of tapping into boomer anxiety.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Just, he, for sure.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: He's just a cable news fan.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: And the thing Lovett was talking about, the Congressional Medal
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: of Honor, that story was like 10 minutes long. It
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: was about landing in Iraq or something. And then it
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: ended with some rant about leaving the equipment in Afghanistan.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: So again, back to the hits.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there were, it was mostly greatest hits. The parts
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: where there was, I think, strategy to it. One, he
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: was trying to kind of come onto DeSantis' turf with
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: the school. policy stuff and going after the swimmers and
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: going after critical race theory. Two, there was a kind
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: of like, it's so strange for this to be something
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: Trump is doing. And it is from, I think, a
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: defensive position, like a place of weakness. But he was
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: really trying to prove to Republican elites that he had
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: the backing, a lot of important figures in the state.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: Both of the events were really much more about like,
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: local Republican officials and kind of displaying... Do you think
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: that's why he started with.
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: Because I was wondering why he started with these two
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: very small events as opposed to rallies, which he is
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: known for.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do think that's why. I think these were
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: events very much aimed at signaling to Republicans to either
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: hold off on making endorsements or to jump in and
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: make endorsements of him. Because he really did line both
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: stages with local officials and and talk about how much
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: and how good he was to them and how good
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: they were to him. And then the third point I'd
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: make was actually made by Lindsey Graham about like sort
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: of the message he was trying to convey. And it
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: was the most direct and honest thing anyone said, which
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: is after Trump spoke in South Carolina, Lindsey Graham gets
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: up there and says, now there are a lot of
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: people saying, oh, I really like Trump and I really
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: like Trump policies, but I'd love Trump policies with somebody new.
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: And then Lindsey Graham did a bit a line by
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: line a list of achievements for Trump saying, you couldn't
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: have gotten these Trump policies without Trump. Trump is what
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: makes them possible.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: This is just the world's saddest simp.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: I wrote a note about that. It's like, I don't
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: think that's true.
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: No, of course it's not true. It struck me as
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: like a really shitty argument from Lindsey Graham. Like, You
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: actually can have Trump policies without Trump. You can have some, like,
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: whatever Republican candidate do all the same shit Trump did
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: without being as fucking crazy. But that, I think, is
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: what was... I mean, we would all hate that, obviously.
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: It would be horrible for the country, but you could
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: conceivably do that.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: But I do think that that's, like, the debate. If
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: there's a debate that Trump is trying to make happen,
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: I think, other than the greatest hits and other than
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: trying to kind of crowd DeSantis on some of the
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: issues that DeSantis would run on, this, to me, was, like,
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: the core of what Trump was trying to do in
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: these speeches, which was basically, you know, the... The very
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: long aside about landing in Iraq was part of a
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: larger section about making deals, getting the military to kind
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: of do what the military does best, despite the Washington
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: generals negotiating with the Taliban, negotiating with Mexico, negotiating with China.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: And he was basically telling these ridiculous made up stories
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: of how, you know, I called him up and I said,
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: you're going to give me three billion dollars. And they're like,
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: we're never going to give you three billion dollars. And
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: I got the three billion dollars.
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: I told Mexico they are taking all the immigrants. They said,
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: we're not taking them. I said, oh, yeah, you're going
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: to take them.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: You're going to take them. He kept calling the Taliban
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: leadership Abdul.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: So it is this like sort of fan fiction presidency thing.
• 6:29
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: And I do think that was that was the argument.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: The New Hampshire speech was the state Republican Party's annual meeting. So, like, yes,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: it was a small audience, but that's a good audience
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: to speak to. It's a bunch of activists and elected officials.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: And the outgoing state party chair is now joining his campaign.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: They announced that at the end. I'm sure they could
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: have like, it was in Salem, I think. Not the biggest,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: not the best town in New Hampshire. I guess they
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: could have cruised up to Canterbury Lake Park. Manchester or something.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Rented out a hockey rink. But like, you're
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: not doing a big outdoor rally in New Hampshire in January.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: That's not a good idea. South Carolina was in the
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: state house right next to a statue of John C. Calhoun,
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: an ardent racist and defender of slavery. So that was
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: also not subtle. But again, like elite. opinion. I don't know.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Maybe you could have done a rally in South Carolina,
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: but I don't know. He didn't want to. Yeah.
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: I just think it's, uh, it's, it's weird that this
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: time around he's going for like establishment support, which is
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: also ironic because he is the party establishment at this point.
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: But like Trump in 16 was like the great outsider.
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: Didn't give a shit about Republican elected officials anywhere. And
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: the people that loved him were the base of the
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: party that often didn't even participate in elections and didn't vote.
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: And now it's like he's doing this insider thing, which
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: I thought was interesting. I also thought, to your point, Lovett,
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: he did a lot of reciting his policy accomplishments, because
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: I think, look, if the 2016 campaign was a restoration
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: of a time that never really existed in America, this
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: is sort of remember the days of the Trump presidency
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: and how wonderful they were, right? Like he wants to
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: kind of paint this picture. And it was funny, we
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: played that clip, but We need a president who's ready
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: to hit the ground running on day one. I'm like,
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: is he leaning on experience like he's fucking Hillary Clinton?
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: Is he going to tell us strength plus experience equals change?
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: And look, John, as somebody who's on that campaign, I've
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: always said that strength plus experience equals change. And as
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: I've often always said, obviously also change minus strength equals experience.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the right equation. You got it.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: And then he tried, this was the other one. Biden
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: running makes every day seem like April Fool's Day. Donald,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: come on, buddy. Are we running for class president?
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: There was a whole riff where he would do a
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: line and then he'd say, it's April Fool's Day.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: It's April Fool's Day.
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: It's horrible. It was also like, he clearly thought about
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: it on the golf course and then he kind of
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: tested it out at the buffet and people seemed to
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: like it. And it was just like, hey man, hey man, look,
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: keep that in your pocket. It's late January. You're so close.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Keep that good stuff for April.
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: February's short.
• 8:52
  Speaker 7: Late March.
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: That's a great, you can do that. You can do
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: that in April.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: It's a great joke. He will. He'll come back to it.
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: You mentioned his education stuff. his biggest applause line was
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: his proposal to cut federal funding for any school that
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: teaches critical race theory or gender ideology, which is part
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: of his education policy plan that also includes, quote, opening
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: civil rights investigations into any school that discriminates against Asian
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: American students and promises to, and he also promised to
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: keep men out of women's sports. So it does seem
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: to me like those policies are coming from a place
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: of weakness because he is like following DeSantis and, on
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: this kind of stuff, when back in, I think, 2015,
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: when he was running, you could argue that he was
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: the candidate most in touch with the base's grievances, and
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: he was out front on extreme immigration policies.
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: Well, there's something about that, too, that does also just,
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: it does speak to how much has changed, because you
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: go through each of those, right? Those are obviously things
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: that test really well with Republican voters, but that specific
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: part about Asian Americans, that is a inside Republican sort
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: of conversation about trying to peel off Asian Americans by
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: using affirmative action as a, as a wedge issue. And
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: so it's like, and then there was another part later
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: in the speech where he says something about, I think,
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: I think it's in the sports section and then maybe
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: in the, when we started talking about the wall and
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: he said, you know, these aren't Democrat or Republican. These
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: things are just common sense. It was like the most
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: like rote kind of, but clearly a message tested line.
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: There was a lot of message tested pieces of this speech. Yeah.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: Look, it's just bigotry with the slightest of dog whistle,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: but you're right. I mean, DeSantis is out ahead of
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: him banning what AP black history courses. He's putting Christopher Ruffo,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: the guy who created the hysteria around critical race theory
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: in charge of gutting some Florida colleges curriculum. So yes,
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: he's following DeSantis there.
• 10:43
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: I mean, there, it's a, It's going to be a
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: competition if DeSantis gets in of who can be the
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: ultimate culture warrior here. That's what this round is going
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: to be about. So it could get pretty ugly and
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: even more bigoted as we continue to go on because
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: they're going to try to appeal to the most extreme
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: parts of the party.
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do think that the way that Trump's language
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: evolved in this speech and it's something that's going to be,
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: I think, pretty menacing and awful is, you know, these
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: people hate America. The way he waves away the entirety.
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: Of his opposition is the Marxists, the racists, and the perverts.
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: So that's going to be, I think, those are the
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: three horsemen.
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: He also took a direct shot at DeSantis, who the
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: Washington Post reported over the weekend has been holding meetings
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: about 2024 and has already identified multiple potential hires in
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: early primary states. Trump said DeSantis has been trying to
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: rewrite history over his response to the pandemic, accused him
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: of promoting the vaccine as much as anyone. These are criticisms.
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: And criticized him for closing some beaches and businesses in
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: some parts of Florida. Do you guys think this fight
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: over the pandemic will matter to Republican primary voters?
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: I can't tell. I think so. I mean, hating Fauci,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: thinking he's evil, is now like Republican canon. It's a
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: core belief. I think the anti-vax movement is pretty firmly
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: embedded in the Republican base. Trump is right about DeSantis
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: flip-flopping on this. Back in 2021... He was telling people
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: to get vaccinated. He was saying vaccines protect you. A
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: year later, he's hosting anti-vaccine news conferences. He put together
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: a committee and called for an investigation of the wrongdoing
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: in Florida with respect to COVID-19 vaccines. So, yeah, I
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: think DeSantis will argue he fought the woke left and
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: the lockdowns and the vaccine mandates while Trump caved to
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: them and hired Fauci or didn't fire him.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, they both have done a couple of
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: switches on the vaccines. DeSantis' whole point during the vaccine
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: rollout was, look how good I am at rolling this out.
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: I'm the best at rolling this thing out. Trump was
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: like joking on stage about how like, oh my God,
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: this vaccine's a boo. You're booing the vaccine. All right,
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: I guess. I think you should get it. You know,
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: he felt it changing for him in real time. I
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: think as an issue, I don't know how important it
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: will be, but it really is sort of, you know,
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: so much of the fight is going to be like,
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: who's sticking it to the to the fucking squares harder,
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: you know? Which one of us is gonna stick to
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: the nerds and the fucking Jews the hardest, really? It's
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: all in, it's a little bit in there.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: That was Lovett, that was John.
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: Lovett, send your comments to him. Who's gonna stick it
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: to them? Who's gonna really stick it to those New Yorkers?
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Vaccine skepticism has increased, and you're also seeing it among
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: elite opinion makers. There's the, you know, the guy David Sachs,
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: insufferable venture capitalist douchebag who was brought into Twitter by
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: Elon Musk. He has a podcast with the guy who said,
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: I don't care about genocide. They did an episode the
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: other day where they're all bragging about how they're not
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: going to get the booster anymore, right? Like this is
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: a growing thing.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: I figured you might swerve to hit them on that.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: They're insufferable, horrendous people who yap a lot.
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: I think on one hand, I think it is hard
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: to make a primary fight about a two year old
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: issue that has little bearing on the future. On the
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: other hand, primaries are historically about really dumb things.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: Um, and it's, and it's also like unclear what else
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: they're going to fight over because what other policy differences
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: do they have or like differences in like what issue
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: positions they've taken, et cetera. So like, you look for
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: like the tiniest difference between you and your primary opponent
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: and you make it into a big deal. That happens
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: in primaries all the time.
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: I have to say, I'm a little worried it could
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: get personal.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: But I think you're right. It is, it is a
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: stand in for like, who's more establishment and who's the
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: bigger outsider.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 14:33
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: That's, that's going to be the fight between.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Who will tell the, the woke lefts who, you know,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: want to boss you around.
• 14:39
  Speaker 8: No.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: And also like, if you have the audio, like one
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: of the biggest applause lines is was in this part
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: where he kind of ran through all the people he
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: was going to keep taking on. Andy, can you play
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: that clip? We need a.
• 14:49
  Speaker 5: Fighter who can stand up to the left, who can
• 14:52
  Speaker 5: stand up to the swamp, stand up to the media,
• 14:56
  Speaker 5: stand up to the deep state. Am I allowed to
• 14:59
  Speaker 5: say stand up to the rhinos too?
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: It was one of the biggest applause lines he got
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: in both speeches. And I do think that that's like,
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: you know, It's only a matter of time before DeSantis
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: is a rhino.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: And he's like, speaking of rhinos, Lindsey Graham.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: The thing about it, too, is it's like, oh, you're
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: taking on the rhinos? Like, the rhino is extinct. There's
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: like one rhino left in a fucking zoo somewhere.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: It's a moving target.
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: I do think it is a setup for, you know,
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: DeSantis is probably going to have the support of more
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: of the Republican establishment. the Mitch McConnells of the world,
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: even if McConnell doesn't actually endorse. But that type of
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: person who's not a rhino, but Trump would call them
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: a rhino.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: For sure.
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: And so Trump is setting it up so that when
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: DeSantis gets all this Republican support and gets more of
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: these Republican officials, he can say, ah, they're just as
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: bad as the Democrats and I'm the real outsider.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: You know, so that's probably what he's doing there.
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: So when Trump was asked about DeSantis, he said, when
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: I hear that he might run, I think it's very disloyal.
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: I got him elected. I'm the one that chose him.
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: But when he was asked about Nikki Haley and other
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: Trump officials potentially running like Mike Pence, Nikki Haley, Mike Pompeo,
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: like half his cabinet is running against him. He said,
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: my attitude is if they want to do it, they
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: should do it. I have good relationships with all of them.
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: So what do you think? What's with the different answers?
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: So it's so transparent. So great.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: It's like.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: Well, DeSantis could beat me, but not if all these
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: other people run. So I hope they do do it
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: because then they can all be divided as the anti-Trump
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: person and I can do the same thing I did
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: in 2016.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the smart explanation. I think the feral, dumb
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: explanation is that's just very sad for Nikki Haley. It's
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: like in sports rivalries when one team hates the other
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: and the other team just never thinks about them. It's
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: like Chicago Bears fans who hate the Green Bay Packers.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: And Aaron Rodgers is like, I forgot you guys were
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: still in the NFL. You have been beating me in
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: so long, you're so bad that I forgot that you existed.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: And that's kind of how I think of a Nikki
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Haley candidacy.
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's also, Dan and I were talking about
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: this on Thursday, but he had that nice truth about
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: Mike Pence after the Mike Pence classified documents thing.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: You leave Mike Pence alone.
• 17:05
  Speaker 7: Was that sarcastic?
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: No, I think it's the same thing.
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: He's like, he's not threatened by Mike Pence. If he
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: was threatened by Mike Pence, he'd be calling for his
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: hanging again.
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: I think Trump's narcissism can be big enough to envelop
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: humans in the vicinity of it. And so he, like,
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: I think he genuinely thinks it is funny how much
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: of a rule follower Mike Pence is. I think he's
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: appreciated that as a person. He's like, you're thinking Mike
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: Pence broke the rules? He's not like me. I stuffed
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: some documents in my basin of Mar-a-Lago. If it's Pence,
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: you know it's an accident. He wouldn't even make me
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: president again. I tried to fucking hang him and he's
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: still like cool with me.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: This guy's awesome.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Do you guys know, have we talked about what DeSantis'
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: book that's coming out I think in February is called?
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, The Courage to be Free? Courage to be Free.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: You nailed it, both of you.
• 17:47
  Speaker 6: Wow.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Well, because I pre-ordered it, obviously.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: That's a good one.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: The Courage to be Free. course. Well, the free state
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: of Florida.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: So Dan Balls of the Washington Post wrote a piece
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: where he said the best analogy for this Republican primary
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: is the 2008 primary between Obama and Hillary. Republican pollster
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: Frank Luntz also said that DeSantis is so far ahead
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: of where Barack Obama was against Hillary Clinton at this point.
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: Do you guys think that's a good analogy? And what
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: do you think is similar to 2008?
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: And what's different?
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: Time for your answer. I just want to say I
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: do think that Dan Ball's writing a piece saying that
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: Trump is the Hillary of 2024 combined with Pence, Trump
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: and Biden having classified documents in their home is a
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: real strategy to have Hillary Clinton do a kind of
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: full breakdown on like an airplane or something.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: I thought it was absolutely like saying Beetlejuice three times.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: She's really she's going to go. She's going to go
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: full Joker. She's going to absolutely lose. This is ridiculous.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: This is ridiculous.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's mean to her. I mean, I don't know.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: I've said it before.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: I'll say it again.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Frank Luntz nailed this one.
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: All right, I got the climate change clip that was
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: up there.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: I RT'd that hard. I see Elijah taking notes. DeSantis
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: is in a way better position than Obama was at
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: this point. With the caveat that it's probably harder to
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: run against a former president, we don't really know. DeSantis
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: is up by 12 points in a New Hampshire poll.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: There was an Iowa poll that had DeSantis beating Trump
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: with Iowa caucus goers. He raised like $ 100 million for
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: his governor's race. Obviously, you fundraise differently for a federal
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: race than a state race. But like, I don't know,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: if Trump wasn't Trump, DeSantis would be the clear front runner.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: I think you're right.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: It's interesting. It's sort of like, really what the analogy
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: says is that it depends on who wins. Because you
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: could just as easily make it the other, you may
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: go the other way and say DeSantis is the other
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: than the fact that Trump, I think, I think probably
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: defensively in a way that he'll end up having to
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: run away from is sort of doing this establishment campaign
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: early on. DeSantis is going to have the establishment support.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: DeSantis is in the lead. He is a sitting governor.
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: Trump does his absolute. uh, uh, well, he's the best,
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: most fiendish work as an outsider.
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: He's not necessarily in the, it's, it's similar to the
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: Obama Hillary thing where DeSantis is not necessarily in the
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: lead nationally. I think if you took an average of
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: all the polls, Trump's still winning, but you're right. And
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: like in New Hampshire and Iowa, uh, he is ahead
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: in some of these early polls in the South Carolina poll.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: He is not, which is interesting.
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: Um, I think that the similarity is he's taking on
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: an establishment front runner who's leading in the national polls, uh,
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: likely with a message that's more about generational change than
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: policy change. I think what's different is he's not going
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: to have the problem Obama did with, uh, lack of
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: experience because he's the governor of Florida who just won
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: a second term by.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: A member of Congress for that. Right.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: A member of Congress for that.
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: But we also don't know, it doesn't seem like he
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: quite has a Barack Obama's, um, oratorical talent.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: I don't think he's an inspirational figure.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: But maybe to them he is. Maybe to the Republican
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: base he's like that.
• 20:56
  Speaker 7: I don't know.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, come on.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: I mean, like, everyone kind of always just sort of
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: jumps over the once-in-a-generation political talent part of it that
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: Barack Obama brought to that campaign. And like, you know,
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: this is something I think Dan said a couple weeks ago.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: It's like, no one's heard Ron DeSantis' fucking voice. You know,
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: it's just like, you barely see him, you barely hear
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: from him.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: He's not like, He doesn't have his 2004 convention speech.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the full Klieg lights of Trump's evil charisma has
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: not been directed at him on a stage. Things change quickly.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: That's because the Courage to be Free rollout tour has
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: yet to begin.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: It's coming out in February.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: Make sure you pre-order. They're going to go and they're
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: going to do their little.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: Have the courage to pre-order, everyone.
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: The pandemic fight could be like Iraq for 2008.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Um, our brains are just stuck in there. It hurts.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: That's like the one position. It becomes a judgment thing,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: you know, that the, one of them had the judgment,
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: one of them didn't.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: So it's a, it's a, what are like, like, like
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: just the two of them just arguing, like who did
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: a better job of fucking killing the elderly for a
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: year and a half.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's why it's the complete mirror image.
• 21:59
  Speaker 7: Unbelievable.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: It's debated the villages.
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: So the other big difference is just the difference between
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: the democratic primaries and the Republican primaries. And we've talked
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: about this before, but it's winner take all versus winner
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: take some. I also think Obama developed a base of
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: voters that was closely matched to Hillary's. So he had
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: college-educated whites and black voters, and she had non-college-educated whites
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: and Latino voters. I think DeSantis, he could get a
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: lot of these college-educated Republicans and Republican-leaning independents who dislike
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: Trump and are more concerned with electability who pay closer
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: attention to politics.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: I just don't know if.
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: They're enough of the Republican electorate, right? So much of
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: the Republican electorate is non-college whites. And those are such
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: Trump people. Like, Trump voters were not people attending the
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: New Hampshire event, the South Carolina event. They probably don't
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: know as much about DeSantis. They're low information voters. Those
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: are the people that surprise you at the polls.
• 22:49
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: I also do think one thing that Democratic primary voters
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: and Republican primary voters have in common is the first
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: question is electability. And who do they think can win?
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: Who do they think is the best person to send
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: up against the Democrat? And there hasn't been that electability
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: conversation yet. I think I think that there's this assumption.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: I think that the Republicans, I think, have internalized the
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: idea that Joe Biden is very weak. But I wonder
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: what happens when, you know, there's one, you know, Dan
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: Balls makes this point when he compares Donald Trump to
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton in a way that, I don't know if
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: you've seen this, but most of Chappaqua is gone. It's
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: just a big crater now. She saw the post and
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: that was that sad. A lot of good people there,
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: but it's gone. They'll have to reroute the fucking Metro
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: North now.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: But they'll fix it.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: They'll fix it.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: There's money in the infrastructure, but I'll stop now. But
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: the point that the fucking Donald Trump saying, oh. you're
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: going to go with this guy. I will destroy every
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: person on this stage, whether I win or lose.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: I will never stop. That's his electability argument. It's coming.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: He's got to start signaling it.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, I think it's coming.
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: I didn't think that you could use that as sort
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: of an electability argument. Because I think Donald Trump has
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: a very shitty electability argument.
• 24:01
  Speaker 9: Of course.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: It's implicit. I'll run as a third party. That was
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: his don't impeach me argument.
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: I think it starts to get more, the more under
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: fire he gets, the more explicit.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: It was interesting, though, that DeSantis, although he has been
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: very quiet, he did decide to weigh in on the
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Republican National Committee race and come out finally and say
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: that Ronna McDaniel shouldn't get the job again, which obviously
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: she's terrible. And they've had a horrible couple of election
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: cycles in a row. It didn't matter. She won. But
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: it was just interesting that he picked a side in that. Yeah.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: Even with the Kevin McCarthy stuff, it's like he dips
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: his toe in, he puts out a kind of lukewarm endorsement.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: Then when it starts going his way, he chimes in
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: and says he's the orchestrator of it. He's always afraid
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: to kind of put himself too far out there.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: Look, I go back and forth, like gut instinct on this.
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: I'm like, is Trump going to do it again? Could
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: DeSantis do it?
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: I just don't know. I don't know. It's too early.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: It's too early.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: Time will tell.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Time will tell. Time will tell. There you go. There's
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: our analysis.
• 24:54
  Speaker 10: All right.
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: The other big story this week is the fallout from
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: the tragic and infuriating murder of Tyree Nichols by five
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: Memphis police officers who beat the unarmed 29-year-old so severely
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: during a traffic stop that he died in the hospital
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: three days later. In the police body camera footage, which
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: was released on Friday, Nichols could be heard crying out
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: for his mother and didn't appear to ever strike back,
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: despite what the police officers had said. The officers have
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: been fired and charged with multiple crimes, including second-degree murder.
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: And the Memphis Police Department has disbanded the undercover unit
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: they were part of, which had been criticized for aggressive policing.
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: So there were protests in Memphis and other cities over
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: the weekend. The big question now is whether Tyree's murder
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: will revive the national push for policing reform and actually
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: lead to action this time. Cory Booker is expected to
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: reintroduce the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act sometime this week.
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: which died last year after his negotiations with Republican Senator
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: Tim Scott fell apart. Maybe we should start by walking
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: people through why those negotiations fell apart and what the
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: sticking points were. Tommy?
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the sticking point was an issue called
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: qualified immunity, which shields police officers from civil lawsuits. The
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Democrats wanted to get rid of qualified immunity, that protection
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: for police. Republicans wanted to preserve it. I think you
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: have to get rid of qualified immunity as part of
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: any reform because it's so thoroughly tilts the scales in
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: favor of the police and protects them from accountability, that
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: it was criticized by both Justices Sonia Sotomayor and Clarence Thomas.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: So if those people can agree on something, I think
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: Congress should be able to. But police unions are very
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: against getting rid of qualified immunity protections and have lobbied
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: hard to preserve them federally and in a whole bunch
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: of states. Yeah.
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: And I think that the bill didn't even fully eliminate it.
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: It reformed it. It got rid of a lot of it.
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: And then there were compromises floated back then. At some point,
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: Tim Scott, during an interview, had said he was open
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: to the idea that you would reform qualifying immunity so
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: that you could sue police departments or municipalities, but not
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: necessarily individual officers. Lindsey Graham, by the way, just over
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: the weekend floated that as potential compromise as well. But
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: that never really went anywhere, that potential compromise, I think
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: because Tim Scott just walked it back. Or just decided
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: that he wasn't going to embrace it or couldn't find
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: enough Republicans to embrace it.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: Well, they were so far apart. They were part on
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: that issue. But also the George Floyd Justice of Policing
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: Act was much broader in a few other ways than
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: the Republican bill. So they were always very far apart.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: They remain far apart. But it does seem like this.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, will this conversation be revived? It has been revived, right?
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: We have Scott talking about it. We have Cory Booker
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: talking about it. We have Lindsey Graham talking about it.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: Jim Jordan saying it's not necessary. tells you where a
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: lot of Republicans in the House will be. But I don't,
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: you know, this happens to be, I think, an issue
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: where the fact that we went from a narrow Democratic
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: majority to a narrow Republican majority in the House, I
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: don't think makes, it may make it harder and it
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: may make the bill more of a compromise, but I
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: don't think it's less likely.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: You think it's possible?
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: I think it's possible. I think it remains as possible
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: because I think the same problem, like, if it can
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: pass in a bipartisan way in the Senate, I think
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: it is possible for someone like Kevin McCarthy to bring.
• 28:06
  Speaker 6: It to the floor.
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: I think the challenge was, so qualified immunity becomes the
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: sticking point that all the pieces in the aftermath of
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: the negotiations talk about as one of the big sticking points.
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: But Scott's statement and what he said in interviews afterwards was,
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: he started making these claims that, you know, the Democrats,
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: I couldn't reach a compromise with them because Democrats wanted
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: to defund the police.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: Right, which he said that if you tied grant money
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: to reforms, that was defunding the police, which is nonsense.
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: Well, it's especially nonsense because that provision, right, which would,
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: it would give law enforcement agencies grants only after they
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: met these certain standards and bias training, no-knock warrants, use
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: of force, et cetera. This was codifying an executive order
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: from Donald Trump In July of 2020. Heard of him.
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: And that's what that provision was doing. So, I mean, Scott,
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: at the very least, was being somewhat dishonest in how
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: he describes that provision. But if he's not going to
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: go there and embrace that, I think that tells you that, like, yeah,
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: there were never 10 Republicans in the Senate who were
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: going to embrace even a compromised version of the George
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: Floyd Justice in Policing Act.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: So I think the only hope then becomes that The
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: debate has shifted. First of all, we are just outside
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: of an election where we went through kind of a
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: huge period of debate and conversation about this in 2020
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: that led to Republicans using it as a cudgel and
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: using defund in a big way as a cudgel that
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: led to months and months of inflamed coverage of crime
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: on Fox News. Like that is all kind of fated.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: which I think makes it a little bit more possible
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: that you could have some kind of a compromise that
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: would obviously not go nearly far enough and not go
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: nearly as far enough as what Democrats would want to do.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: But that to me is why You see all the
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: reasons why it's gotten harder, but there are a couple
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: of ways in which it's gotten easier.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: I also just would worry a little bit about what
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Trump will do or say about this. It's not the
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: same issue. Sort of a related issue was the passage
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: of the First Step Act, which was a criminal justice
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: reform that was very narrow that Trump passed and initially
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: sort of celebrated that Jared Kushner pushed really hard. And
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: a couple of years later, Trump talked about it like
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: he was embarrassed that it happened and regretted it. And
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: so I bring that up just to say like, where
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Trump is looking for ways to outflank other Republicans by
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: being more, you know, pro-cop, pro-law and order, whatever you
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: want to call it. I could imagine him being incredibly
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: chaotic and unhelpful here.
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: So in addition to Booker reintroducing the bill, Biden will
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: be meeting with the Congressional Black Caucus this week to
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: talk about reform. They've also invited Tyree Nichols' parents to
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: the State of the Union, which means reform. President Biden
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: will be, presumably will be talking about this in the
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: State of the Union. I do, to your point about
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: how the politics have changed a lot, but I think
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: that obviously there was this sort of political debate around defund,
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: especially in Washington and for people paying close attention. And
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: then there were like, you know, crime rates didn't necessarily rise,
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: but violent crime rates in a lot of cities did.
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: And I think you have this dynamic in the country
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: where an overwhelming majority of Americans, including black Americans, like
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: want police to protect them from violent crime. And they
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: also want to be protected from violent police. And I
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: think that like, there's not a simple set of policy
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: solutions to do both, right? Like it's not just about
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: like more funding or less funding. You can't just like
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: throw money at the problem or take money away and
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: fix the problem, right? There's like a lot of solutions
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: that have been tried in cities and states that improve
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: this on the margins. But I do think there's, it
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: sort of starts with the way our political leaders address it.
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: Like last time Biden gave a State of the Union,
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: you know, he said, We shouldn't defund police. We should fund, fund,
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: fund police.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: And like, I get why he said that. But I
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: do think there is a more nuanced way to talk
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: about it that I hope he talks about in the
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: State of the Union, which is like people want to
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: be protected from violent crime. They also deserve to be
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: protected from violent police. And we shouldn't have violent police.
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: Not only should we have them on the force, but
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: like we shouldn't hire them in the first place.
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: But this is why I think on the politics, there
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: was this incredible national focus and a shift in public
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: opinion on this issue that was very dramatic. and opened
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: up a lot of new avenues for reform, made a
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: lot of changes possible that hadn't led to a lot
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: of local bills being passed, led to this national debate.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: But then the conversation around defund was exploited by Republicans,
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: even though it was a position held by activists, which
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: activists are always going to push for the most progressive
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: policies they can, but used as a cudgel against Democrats,
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: which then I think in order to get to a
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: place where I think that is why you see someone
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: like Joe Biden feeling the need to say that, because
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: they need to kind of make a break from that
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: debate about the fund, which I think ultimately makes more
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: reforms possible. Yeah.
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: I would suggest that everyone read Radley Balko's New York
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: Times piece about this. It just sort of proves the
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: point of how difficult this is. In Memphis, the police
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: department says, like, we've done de-escalation. training and other reforms.
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: They had body cameras, obviously. But these elite police teams,
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: this unit, this elite police unit.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Scorpion unit, as they're called.
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: So, yeah, and they have these in cities all across
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: the country. They operate in high crime areas with less
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: oversight than other police units. And in Memphis, the reporting
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: says that they tended to hire younger and more inexperienced
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: officers with a propensity for aggression. The training for this
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: unit consisted of three days of PowerPoint presentations and one
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: day at a firing range.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: And like these these units are they're like militarized. They
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: treat civilians like enemies. And we and for years, the
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Department of Defense has been giving local police departments like
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: leftover gear from Iraq, like basically tanks and things. Right.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: It's a completely back ass word way to think about
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: how you keep people safe.
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: In Detroit, this kind of unit was disbanded after they
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: raided an apartment with sheriff's deputies in it and killed one.
• 34:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Cops killing other cops.
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: So I've seen this debate about these sort of elite
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: units and I hope like people see it, like this
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: conversation about like sort of this, the way it was
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: sort of like concentrates some of the most like dangerous
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: issues in policing, right? They give them these sort of
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: video game names. They give them these identities. They give
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: them this power. They remove this oversight. I do think
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: it's important. Like if it's worth disbanding these things, it's
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: so clear that they're dangerous. It is so clear that
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: it sort of engenders like the worst instincts of people.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: But you can see it as a stand-in for some
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: of the cultural issues that have been exposed because of
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: body cam footage, that have been exposed because of this
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: push to attention on the issue of police violence, but
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: clearly has been there for decades and decades and decades,
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: if not forever. And body cams may be the reason,
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: and cameras may be the reason that these guys are
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: all indicted. But even with body cam, the culture... that
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: led these guys to be so callous, to be so violent,
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: that led them to sit this kid up and then
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: sit there and then have the medical help come and
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: not address him. That culture that dehumanizes the people they
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: are meant to protect, that is such deep rot that
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: has been there for such a long time and it's
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: going to take such a long time to untangle and
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: get rid of it. But how we focus on that,
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: the way in which the people that go into the
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: police and once into the police are trained to kind
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: of lose that connection with the community is so bad,
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: and it is the core of so much of this,
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: that all of these reforms are about trying to protect against,
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: like all of these forms, body cams, qualified immunity, all
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: of it is about trying to figure out how to
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: make up for the way in which becoming part of
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: this police force dehumanizes people and leads them to dehumanize
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: the people they're meant to serve.
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: But it's also like why these units are created in
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: the first place is part of why this is such
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: a difficult issue, right? Because these units are created in
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: the first place because they're like, all right, we're going
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: to send This special unit into this high crime area.
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: And we're going to give them more leeway and we're
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: going to give them less oversight than other police units
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: because we feel like the violent crime is the important
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: crime to stop. And so if we just send a
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: bunch of police in there and just let them do
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: their thing and have let them do pretextual stops on this,
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: it's going to work.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: And guess what? In some of these units, they do
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: take away more guns, right? They do make more arrests.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: But they're also killing a lot more people, and they're
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: killing a lot more innocent people.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: And that's the key point there is this is a
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: unit that's supposed to deal with violent crime, and they
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: pulled someone over allegedly for erratic driving, even though there's
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: no evidence that he was driving erratically.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: We still have no idea what was going on there.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: And they gave him 71 commands in 13 minutes to
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: do various different things that were all contradictory while pepper
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: spraying him. And for the, you know, sometimes you'll see
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: people apply to stories like this. Like, well, if you
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: don't resist, you're not going to get in trouble. The
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: getting pepper sprayed in the face or beaten up, like
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: you're going to run away. You know, like it's a
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: human instinct. So that's a ridiculous straw man. I do think, though,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: the good news is like I have I am less
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: hopeful than you are about what a Kevin McCarthy led
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: House of Representatives means for the fate of police reform.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: But a lot of good has happened in states. There
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: have been some some like 300 policing bills passed in
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: 45 states over the last couple of years. Some of
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: them govern use of force. Some have created programs to
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: send civilian teams to respond to mental health crises instead
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: of cops who are armed because that leads to bad outcomes.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Some cities have banned these kinds of police stops for
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: low level traffic offenses because, as we just saw, they
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: lead to violence and police shootings. A number of states
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: have tried to get rid of qualified immunity. Those efforts
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: are mostly killed by unions. And again, I do think
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: that's critical. And then other cities and states have banned
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: no-knock warrants, chokeholds, including Memphis. So there's been a lot
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: of progress at the state level. I'm not saying there's
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: anywhere close to enough, and I think it'll take some
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: time to really measure the efficacy of what's been done. But,
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: you know, it just means that Washington isn't the only
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: answer here. Yeah.
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: And I do think that the best hope nationally is,
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: you know, work on another bill again, work on another compromise.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: And I agree with you, Tommy. I don't think the
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Republican House will ever take it up at all. But
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: should we get, get to get.
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: It to a point where if we take the house
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: back and, and reelect democratic president in 2024, then hopefully
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: we can, uh, we can pass the argument.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Like we, we, let's be honest, Democrats gave up making
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: the argument because, uh, they felt like the politics changed
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: because the violent crime statistics went up because it seemed
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: politically disadvantageous. So I think you lose every argument you
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: don't make. So start doing that.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Well, and I think that now I think what happened
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: is Democrats overcorrected.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: And so, um, there was a genuine concern about violent
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: crime that wasn't just made up by the news or
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: by Republicans that were happening in cities. And instead of saying, well,
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: we can have reform where people are protected from crime,
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: but also protected from violent cops, it went too far
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: in the direction of like, no, we're funding the police,
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: more police, great police.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: We love the police.
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: You know, there is a message somewhere That's between those
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: two polls that someone that I think could be affected. Yeah.
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: And to be clear, obviously, I think it is very
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: unlikely that something gets to a Republican led house. But
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: in the same way, when we were talking with Hakeem
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: Jeffries about the importance of putting Kevin McCarthy on on
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: the spot to get him to try and introduce a
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: clean debt limit bill, even though obviously nobody expects him
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: to do the right thing. I think when we just
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: start by saying, oh, that's. Republican House will never do anything,
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: I think we should be pushing them and act as
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: if we can get some kind of a negotiation to
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: the point where he'll have to bring something to the floor.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: Just one other point about all this too, which is
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: I do think that there is a parallel between the
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: way in which the national attention focuses on police brutality
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: and then reform in the wake of like just these
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: sort of monstrous unequivocal kind of sort of conscience shocking
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: events uh in the same way that the kind of
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: national attention focuses after mass shootings um but there's this
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: i i do think that like the fact that it
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: takes events like this to focus the national attention on
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: problems with policing in the same way that national attention
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: on gun violence takes mass shooting tells us about just
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: how much we've already given up and how much we've
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: already lost and how much sort of daily mayhem and
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: sort of abuse and injustice we sort of tolerate and
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: expect and like kind of that we're all generally inured to.
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: And like, there's no real great answer for that, but
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: we live in a violent country and one consequence of
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: having a violent country is looking the other way for
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: a lot of police violence and police brutality. And I
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: think we do that on a sort of constant basis
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: and figuring out a way to not just wait for
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: shocks of the conscience to get a national debate on
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: these issues is really important. And one way to do
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: that is to, I think, making sure that we don't
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: sort of lose sight of these topics in between the
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: most heinous and despicable examples.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: When we come back, Tommy talks to State Department Counselor
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: Derek Chollet about the latest in Ukraine.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: I am very excited to welcome to the podcast my
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: friend Derek Chalet. He is the counselor at the U.S.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: State Department. He serves at the rank of undersecretary. That's
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: a big deal for those not familiar with State Department protocol.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: He's a senior policy advisor to the Secretary of State,
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Tony Blinken. Derek, it's great to see you.
• 41:38
  Speaker 7: Great to see you, Tommy.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: It's so fun to bring a little World of content
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: to the Pots of America audience here. And I think
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: it's really well-timed because it's about to have been Year
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: since Russia invaded Ukraine. Yeah, and I was hoping we
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: could start there a horrible year by the way Yeah,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: and just get a you know an over sort of
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: overview from you of what the United States has done
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: to date to support Ukraine and their efforts to defend
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: their country and then your sort of sense of I
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: don't know the state of the war itself like where
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: we are.
• 42:10
  Speaker 7: Yeah, it really is a Mind-blowing.
• 42:14
  Speaker 9: It's been less than a year still, a little over
• 42:18
  Speaker 9: 11 months since Russia invaded Ukraine. A year ago, if
• 42:21
  Speaker 9: we were sitting here talking, I'd of course be talking
• 42:25
  Speaker 9: about the intelligence we were seeing build up of Russia's intent,
• 42:29
  Speaker 9: but there are a lot of people who just couldn't
• 42:30
  Speaker 9: believe it just because it seemed so outrageous, self-defeating, and terrible.
• 42:36
  Speaker 9: And of course, everything we've seen transpired has just confirmed
• 42:39
  Speaker 9: Russia's kind of everything we knew about Putin, but it's
• 42:42
  Speaker 9: also confirmed everything we knew about the Ukrainians. And I think,
• 42:44
  Speaker 9: first of all, all credit goes to them for their
• 42:48
  Speaker 9: incredible courage, resilience, toughness, and they've been really taking the
• 42:53
  Speaker 9: fight to the Russians. And, you know, our policy hasn't
• 42:57
  Speaker 9: changed really much at all, Tommy, since the beginning, which was,
• 43:01
  Speaker 9: you know, the kind of North Stars were punish and
• 43:04
  Speaker 9: isolate Russia, working with our allies and partners, and working
• 43:07
  Speaker 9: with our allies and partners, doing everything we can To
• 43:10
  Speaker 9: support Ukraine. What we've seen do politically, economically, but probably
• 43:16
  Speaker 9: most importantly in terms of security assistance, providing Ukraine with
• 43:20
  Speaker 9: weapons over the last year, it's remarkable. We've really not
• 43:24
  Speaker 9: seen anything like it since the early 1940s and the
• 43:27
  Speaker 9: way the U.S. came to the U.K. 's support in
• 43:31
  Speaker 9: the early days of World War II. It's really remarkable.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: It's rare to see Europe disunited as well. So speaking
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: of that, so last week, President Biden and German Chancellor
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Olaf Scholz decided to send these heavy tanks to Ukraine.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: They've been sending armed infantry vehicles and lighter tanks have
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: gone before that, but not heavy tanks. So initially, the
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Defense Department had said, frankly, it was just sort of
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: impractical to send these modern U.S. tanks there. The Abrams tank,
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: the heavy duty latest US model, it requires tons of
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: training to use. It uses, I think, hard to acquire
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: jet fuel and a lot of it.
• 44:07
  Speaker 7: Hard to maintain.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, hard to maintain. Can you help us understand what
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: changed and what you might say to critics who say, hey,
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: the US, you get to the right place with decisions
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: like the tanks or the HIMARS, but it takes too long?
• 44:21
  Speaker 9: Well, look, again, it's important to keep perspective here. We're
• 44:24
  Speaker 9: not even a year into this war.
• 44:25
  Speaker 7: The U.S.
• 44:27
  Speaker 9: Has provided itself nearly $ 30 billion in security assistance. And
• 44:32
  Speaker 9: just to put that in perspective for folks, Ukraine's defense budget,
• 44:35
  Speaker 9: its entire defense budget in 2021 was.
• 44:38
  Speaker 7: About $ 6 billion. So just what the U.S.
• 44:42
  Speaker 9: Has done is given them about five times the equivalent
• 44:44
  Speaker 9: of their defense budget from before the war.
• 44:47
  Speaker 7: And that's just what the U.S. is doing.
• 44:48
  Speaker 9: We've got around 50 countries that are contributing in some
• 44:51
  Speaker 9: way to Ukraine's defense. And What we've been providing Ukraine
• 44:56
  Speaker 9: has evolved as the conflict has evolved. In the early
• 44:59
  Speaker 9: days of the war, it was all about Stinger missiles,
• 45:01
  Speaker 9: the shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles. Then it became Javelin anti-tank missiles,
• 45:06
  Speaker 9: special missiles that the US makes, which are great at
• 45:09
  Speaker 9: killing tanks. Then it became howitzers and air defense and
• 45:14
  Speaker 9: Bradley fighting vehicles, which is an armored vehicle that looks
• 45:17
  Speaker 9: a lot like a tank, but it's not a tank.
• 45:19
  Speaker 9: And now we're talking about tanks. And look, A lot
• 45:23
  Speaker 9: of our allies in Europe have the kinds of tanks
• 45:26
  Speaker 9: that can be used more quickly by the Ukrainians because
• 45:29
  Speaker 9: they're easier to use. They're not quite as sophisticated. They're
• 45:33
  Speaker 9: still very effective, but quite as sophisticated.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: The Leopard tanks.
• 45:35
  Speaker 9: The Leopard tanks. The Challenger tanks, which is what.
• 45:38
  Speaker 7: The UK is giving.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Brits, yeah.
• 45:40
  Speaker 9: So we can get those to them or they can
• 45:42
  Speaker 9: get those to the Ukrainians sooner. The M1A1, the Abrams tank, is...
• 45:48
  Speaker 9: very sophisticated tank, and we're going to start training the
• 45:51
  Speaker 9: Ukrainians on them, and then they're going to start getting them,
• 45:53
  Speaker 9: but it's going to take a while. So look, as
• 45:55
  Speaker 9: the conflict has evolved, and as the Ukrainian asks have evolved,
• 45:59
  Speaker 9: because they're in a war, and every day they're learning
• 46:01
  Speaker 9: new things about what they need, and we're trying to
• 46:03
  Speaker 9: do our best to give them advice of what they need,
• 46:05
  Speaker 9: but then also to try to meet their needs. And
• 46:08
  Speaker 9: so this has been an ongoing conversation about the tanks
• 46:10
  Speaker 9: for the last several months, really, and we came to
• 46:13
  Speaker 9: a really important decision last week, and they're not just
• 46:15
  Speaker 9: getting one tank, they're getting 31 M1A1 Abrams tanks, but
• 46:18
  Speaker 9: then they're getting hopefully up to anywhere 60 to 90
• 46:22
  Speaker 9: of these other kinds of tanks, the Challengers or the
• 46:25
  Speaker 9: Leopards that are made by others. And again, I think
• 46:27
  Speaker 9: that's just really important for listeners of the pod to
• 46:30
  Speaker 9: keep in mind is that obviously we focus a lot
• 46:33
  Speaker 9: on what the US is doing and the US is
• 46:34
  Speaker 9: doing more than anyone else, but this really truly is
• 46:37
  Speaker 9: a collective effort.
• 46:38
  Speaker 7: And you have.
• 46:38
  Speaker 9: Countries that are spending a large chunk of their defense
• 46:43
  Speaker 9: budget on helping Ukraine. For the US, we've spent roughly
• 46:47
  Speaker 9: 4% of our defense budget total, I mean, equal to
• 46:50
  Speaker 9: our defense budget on supporting Ukraine. Given what Ukraine's doing
• 46:54
  Speaker 9: to the Russian military, it's a pretty good investment in
• 46:56
  Speaker 9: terms of our security interests. But some other countries are
• 47:00
  Speaker 9: doing much more as a percentage of their budget. And
• 47:01
  Speaker 9: we just need to acknowledge that contribution that they're making.
• 47:05
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: I think those 31 M1A1 tanks will basically make up
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: a Ukrainian battalion, right? So they'll have a full-fledged U.S.-equipped battalion.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: Significant capability.
• 47:13
  Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: So, you know, Derek, as I know well, as you know,
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: the fun part of working in government is you get
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: attacked from both sides of every issue. So let's do
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: that to you now.
• 47:23
  Speaker 7: And that's usually a sign.
• 47:25
  Speaker 9: When I'm doing something right is when both sides are
• 47:27
  Speaker 9: attacking me.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Potentially, yes, potentially. Well, we'll see what you think after
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: I ask the question. So the Ukrainian government is now
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: asking for modern F-16s. There's reports that President Biden is
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: considering that ask as well. Curious what the latest is there.
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: And then what do you say, again, to people, myself included, frankly,
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: who hear about these announcements, the M1A1s, the HIMARS, and
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: now maybe F-16s, who feel like there is this sort
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: of inexorable push towards escalation, more weapons from the West?
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: Russia's drafting more men into service, et cetera, et cetera.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: And that just kind of, I don't know, makes you nervous.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:59
  Speaker 9: Look, and we're very focused on escalation as well. And look,
• 48:04
  Speaker 9: I don't have anything specific to say on the F-16s
• 48:06
  Speaker 9: other than as the Ukrainians requests continue and as their
• 48:11
  Speaker 9: needs evolve, our ability to provide them certain kinds of
• 48:18
  Speaker 9: equipment are going to evolve. And it's an ongoing conversation
• 48:21
  Speaker 9: we're having with them. I mean, this is something That
• 48:23
  Speaker 9: wasn't in place a year ago, but now, say the
• 48:25
  Speaker 9: last year, we put in place a really robust, it's
• 48:28
  Speaker 9: a great government word, robust.
• 48:30
  Speaker 7: Robust.
• 48:33
  Speaker 9: Set of system to sort through what they need and
• 48:36
  Speaker 9: how we can best get stuff through them and what
• 48:38
  Speaker 9: they can use most quickly. Look, they're in a war,
• 48:40
  Speaker 9: so I fully understand from their perspective, this is existential
• 48:44
  Speaker 9: for them. Their country's survival is at stake. So I
• 48:47
  Speaker 9: understand that every time they get something, it's thank you
• 48:50
  Speaker 9: and we need more. Thank you and we need more. Now,
• 48:52
  Speaker 9: our job is to, A, try to make sure we're
• 48:55
  Speaker 9: being as effective as we can as partners, getting them
• 48:58
  Speaker 9: what they need.
• 48:59
  Speaker 7: But then also, and this is kind.
• 49:01
  Speaker 9: Of our overall objective here, like what we're trying to
• 49:03
  Speaker 9: achieve is a Ukraine that is independent, that is sovereign,
• 49:08
  Speaker 9: that is democratic, that can defend its territory, that's clean,
• 49:12
  Speaker 9: meaning a Ukraine that is freer from corruption, that has
• 49:16
  Speaker 9: plagued that country for too long. And I believe President
• 49:20
  Speaker 9: Zelensky and his team are very committed to fighting corruption.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: By the way. Fired like five people or five top
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: officials resigned.
• 49:27
  Speaker 7: They are well.
• 49:27
  Speaker 9: Aware and they're well aware that that the world is
• 49:30
  Speaker 9: being generous with them. And they have to they have
• 49:34
  Speaker 9: to be good stewards of all of this assistance they're getting.
• 49:37
  Speaker 9: And look, my view is we don't want Ukraine just
• 49:40
  Speaker 9: to survive. We want it to come out of this stronger,
• 49:44
  Speaker 9: more democratic, closer to Europe, closer.
• 49:46
  Speaker 7: To the United States.
• 49:49
  Speaker 9: But Ukraine has to survive first. I mean, again, it's
• 49:52
  Speaker 9: important for people to remember this was not a war
• 49:54
  Speaker 9: that was provoked by anybody. This was a country that
• 49:57
  Speaker 9: violated the most basic principle of international politics, crossing a
• 50:01
  Speaker 9: border to gobble up parts of another country. And that's
• 50:05
  Speaker 9: what Ukraine's dealing with. So it seems to me that
• 50:10
  Speaker 9: it's important for Ukraine's future. It's important for our broader
• 50:13
  Speaker 9: interests that Russia not succeed. I don't think Russia is succeeding.
• 50:18
  Speaker 9: I think they've already suffered a profound defeat strategically, given
• 50:23
  Speaker 9: the assistance we've been giving Ukraine, given the humbling that
• 50:28
  Speaker 9: its military is taking on the battlefield, given the fact
• 50:31
  Speaker 9: we have Finland and Sweden coming into NATO. That was
• 50:33
  Speaker 9: not something, again, if we were talking here a year ago,
• 50:35
  Speaker 9: I would say that's not on our to-do list. for
• 50:38
  Speaker 9: 2022 is to have Finland and Sweden come into NATO.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: Are you worried that Turkey is going to block Sweden's
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: entry into NATO? It seems like Erdogan's really making some
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: noise about that.
• 50:48
  Speaker 7: This has been tough.
• 50:49
  Speaker 9: A lot of tough discussions with the Swedes and the
• 50:52
  Speaker 9: Finns with the Turks. I'm optimistic we're going to get
• 50:55
  Speaker 9: across the finish line. We've got a Turkish election coming
• 50:57
  Speaker 9: up in May. That's going to be a factor here, clearly.
• 51:01
  Speaker 9: But I think we're going to get there. And what's important, again,
• 51:03
  Speaker 9: not the first time NATO's enlarged in its history. This
• 51:06
  Speaker 9: has been record-setting time already, even with this delay.
• 51:09
  Speaker 7: So it's just important to keep that in mind as well.
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: And some capable militaries that would be added to the.
• 51:13
  Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely.
• 51:14
  Speaker 9: And the thing, again, viewers and listeners- Both. Both.
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: Both.
• 51:19
  Speaker 9: May not be aware, but Finland and Sweden have already
• 51:21
  Speaker 9: been great NATO partners. I mean, they've been very capable militaries.
• 51:26
  Speaker 9: They're very strong democracies. They're the kinds of countries we
• 51:28
  Speaker 9: already do a lot with. And so- having them in
• 51:30
  Speaker 9: the alliance will make us all stronger.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: There's been a lot of pressure, understandably, from parts of Washington,
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: more from progressives, to push President Biden to sit down
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: for talks with President Putin. Just curious if there's any U.S.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: diplomatic contacts at any level with the Russian government and
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: whether you guys feel like Putin is willing or able
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: to have real talks, you know, not just sort of
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: like sit down as a way to stall for time.
• 52:00
  Speaker 9: Yeah. I mean, look, I'm sitting here in the State Department.
• 52:03
  Speaker 9: Diplomacies are how we make a living. So we never
• 52:08
  Speaker 9: rule out talks. And of course, again, a year ago,
• 52:11
  Speaker 9: we were engaged. Secretary Blinken was engaged with an intensive
• 52:15
  Speaker 9: set of conversations with the Russians to try to find,
• 52:17
  Speaker 9: is there a way we can prevent this war from happening?
• 52:20
  Speaker 9: It was pretty clear in those conversations. And frankly, I
• 52:22
  Speaker 9: have not seen anything in the last year to suggest
• 52:26
  Speaker 9: that Putin is willing to contemplate anything other than his
• 52:31
  Speaker 9: own maximalist objectives.
• 52:33
  Speaker 7: Which is he wants to own Ukraine.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: Right, right.
• 52:36
  Speaker 7: We'll stop.
• 52:37
  Speaker 9: And look, Zelensky has said he's open to diplomacy.
• 52:41
  Speaker 7: You know, let's talk.
• 52:42
  Speaker 9: But, you know, Putin's made certain terms for preconditions, as
• 52:46
  Speaker 9: they call them, for talking, which are impossible for Zelensky
• 52:49
  Speaker 9: to accept, including the fact that Zelensky would have to
• 52:52
  Speaker 9: acknowledge and recognize that the territory that Russia's gained by force.
• 52:57
  Speaker 9: I mean, that's just a non-starter. So I haven't seen
• 52:59
  Speaker 9: any evidence that Putin is serious at all about negotiations.
• 53:03
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: Unless anyone think that the, your, your point there just
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: about territory. I mean, we know that there have been
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: Russian war crimes committed against civilians in those occupied territories.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: You know, it's, it's untenable.
• 53:12
  Speaker 7: Hundreds, if not thousands. Yeah, absolutely.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: It could be that what you're lacking is some strategic
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: creative genius. Here's an idea. Former President Trump says that
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: if he's reelected, he will build, quote, an impenetrable dome
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: over the United States to protect us from Russian nuclear
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: missile attacks. I know you don't do politics, but you
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: did work at the Defense Department in a previous life.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: What do you make of the feasibility of building said
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: impenetrable missile defense dome over the U.S. a la the
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: Israeli Iron Dome system?
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 53:48
  Speaker 9: Technically, probably not feasible. Kind of back to the future.
• 53:51
  Speaker 9: Reminiscent of early 1980s and Star Wars.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: What if we call it Star Wars? Space lasers?
• 53:56
  Speaker 7: We've been there. We've been there.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: This is an old idea?
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: It's too bad. Okay. Moving forward. Speaking of Israel. So,
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: you know, there were reports over the weekend that Israel
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: struck some military sites in Iran over the weekend.
• 54:08
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: I know Tony Blinken is over in Israel now for meetings.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: There were some suggestions on Twitter. So consider the source.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: that the Israeli government might have done this to help Ukraine. Maybe,
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: you know, the Israelis have refused to offer Ukraine weapons
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: or assistance, but Iran has been a key source of
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: drones for Russia, for example, that they've used against the
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: Ukrainian military or the Ukrainian targets, I should say. The
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: New York Times later reported that the strike was unconnected
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: to Iran's support for Russia. I'm just curious if you
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: know anything about this strike in Iran or anything we
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: can talk about publicly.
• 54:41
  Speaker 9: Yeah, nothing I can talk about publicly. You wouldn't be
• 54:43
  Speaker 9: surprised to hear that. As you said, Secretary Blinken is
• 54:47
  Speaker 9: in Israel right now, today. He'll be there tomorrow as well.
• 54:53
  Speaker 9: Intensive talks with the new government there, a new old
• 54:57
  Speaker 9: government in many ways. Prime Minister Netanyahu is well known
• 55:00
  Speaker 9: to all of us here, as well as members of
• 55:03
  Speaker 9: his senior team. Iran was first and foremost on the
• 55:06
  Speaker 9: issues they discussed, and we share with the Israelis our
• 55:09
  Speaker 9: determination to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon, but
• 55:12
  Speaker 9: also to take steps to try to address the Iran's
• 55:17
  Speaker 9: behavior that the nuclear talks have nothing to do with,
• 55:21
  Speaker 9: like Iran's proliferation of drones.
• 55:25
  Speaker 7: To places like Russia.
• 55:26
  Speaker 9: And I think that's a dimension, frankly, going back to Ukraine,
• 55:28
  Speaker 9: of the Ukraine war, that is quite concerning, which is
• 55:33
  Speaker 9: the deepening of the cooperation between Russia and Iran, the
• 55:37
  Speaker 9: willingness of Iran to provide Russia with sophisticated drones that
• 55:40
  Speaker 9: are being used to kill civilians in Ukraine. It's something
• 55:44
  Speaker 9: we should all take notice of. And it's important, you know,
• 55:47
  Speaker 9: you're kind of defined by your friends and you look
• 55:48
  Speaker 9: where Russia turns for support. It's turning to the likes
• 55:52
  Speaker 9: of North Korea and Iran. And that's a big problem.
• 55:56
  Speaker 9: That's a big problem for us. Big problem for Ukraine.
• 55:58
  Speaker 9: It's a big problem for Israel as well.
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, understandable. I think calling the Israeli coalition old but
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: new is perfect. I mean, it's Bibi Ninjahu, who we've
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: all had the great pleasure of getting to observe and
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: work with at times. But his new coalition is this hyper-nationalist,
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: ultra-orthodox group of individuals that includes former ex-convicts, open racists
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: in ministerial positions. And there is concern from people like
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: Ehud Barak, the former Israeli prime minister, that Netanyahu is
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: pushing forward policy proposals that he said, Barak said would, quote,
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: collapse Israeli democracy. I'm wondering if that kind of is
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: on the conversation? Do there's any concern from the State
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: Department about the trajectory of this new governing coalition and
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: some of the things they're pushing for?
• 56:49
  Speaker 7: Yeah, well, obviously, it's something we're watching closely.
• 56:53
  Speaker 9: Secretary Blinken has been very clear that we're going to
• 56:56
  Speaker 9: be focused on policies, not personalities. And he was in
• 57:00
  Speaker 9: Israel today. The reason why he wanted to go so
• 57:03
  Speaker 9: early since this new government has taken office was to
• 57:07
  Speaker 9: talk about some of the policies. And Look, and this
• 57:11
  Speaker 9: is not just about this moment. It's kind of taking
• 57:12
  Speaker 9: a step back, which brought the U.S. and Israel so
• 57:17
  Speaker 9: close over the last 75 years is the fact that
• 57:19
  Speaker 9: we have shared values.
• 57:21
  Speaker 7: We're thriving democracies.
• 57:23
  Speaker 9: We've seen the vibrant Israeli civil society in action over
• 57:28
  Speaker 9: the last several weeks. And, you know, we want to
• 57:31
  Speaker 9: always try to stay true to those principles and remember
• 57:34
  Speaker 9: that's what fundamentally what brings us together.
• 57:37
  Speaker 7: And the other point we've made is.
• 57:39
  Speaker 9: That, look, we believe that Israel's normalizing of relations with
• 57:45
  Speaker 9: some of its Arab neighbors, that's happened over the last
• 57:47
  Speaker 9: few years. And there was a big step taken in
• 57:49
  Speaker 9: the previous administration. And I give credit to the previous
• 57:51
  Speaker 9: administration for that because I think it was the most
• 57:54
  Speaker 9: positive thing to happen in the Middle.
• 57:55
  Speaker 7: East in quite some time.
• 57:57
  Speaker 9: And what I'm talking about is Israel's normalization with the
• 57:59
  Speaker 9: United Arab Emirates and Morocco and Bahrain. And that's a
• 58:04
  Speaker 9: bottom-up piece. That's not just governments doing it. It's businesses,
• 58:07
  Speaker 9: private sector, tourism, people to people, education, sports, all that. Well, look,
• 58:13
  Speaker 9: it's hard to see that circle getting wider if Israel's
• 58:20
  Speaker 9: backyard's on fire, right? And so that's something that to
• 58:23
  Speaker 9: me is self-evident. We want to do big things with
• 58:25
  Speaker 9: the Israelis. Prime Minister Netanyahu's got big ambitions for Israel
• 58:29
  Speaker 9: and the region. We share those ambitions and We want
• 58:32
  Speaker 9: to work together to try to achieve those, but it
• 58:34
  Speaker 9: is hard to see how that happens if Israel's mired
• 58:37
  Speaker 9: in a major crisis right.
• 58:40
  Speaker 7: In its backyard.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, is there any concern that potentially U.S.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: military aid or funding for systems like the Iron Dome
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: system might be supporting, I don't know, IDF military units
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: that appear to be providing cover for settler violence? Or
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know if there's potential annexation of the West Bank.
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: Is that the kind of thing that's getting talked about?
• 58:59
  Speaker 9: I mean, we've... It's been very clear with the Israelis
• 59:02
  Speaker 9: that President Biden, for his entire career, supports the two-state solution.
• 59:07
  Speaker 9: We want to continue to uphold.
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: That.
• 59:10
  Speaker 9: We're also continuing to urge both sides to take steps
• 59:13
  Speaker 9: to achieve that. An important part of Blinken's trip to Israel, well,
• 59:18
  Speaker 9: he'll be going to the West Bank. And so he'll
• 59:19
  Speaker 9: be in the West Bank on Tuesday of this week
• 59:22
  Speaker 9: for talks with the Palestinian leadership, which is under tremendous
• 59:25
  Speaker 9: stress right now as well. So look, as always, the
• 59:28
  Speaker 9: Middle East puts a lot on your plate. And that's
• 59:33
  Speaker 9: why it was important for Blinken as the nation's chief
• 59:36
  Speaker 9: diplomat to get out there sooner rather than later to
• 59:37
  Speaker 9: begin getting to work with these guys.
• 59:39
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad Tony's there. I mean, there's a really
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: scary cycle of violence. There's this horrible attack on people
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: in a synagogue over the weekend.
• 59:47
  Speaker 7: Terrible weekend.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: There's been replicable attacks on Palestinians, civilians that are once
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: being harmed. Last question for you, just to turn to China,
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: just to grab bag of the hardest issues I could
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: think to ask you.
• 59:56
  Speaker 7: Exactly.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: A four-star Air Force general named Michael Minahan sent a
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: memo to his command warning that he believes the U.S.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: will go to war with China in 2025. The House
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: Foreign Affairs Committee Chair Michael McCaul agreed with that assessment
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: on one of the many Sunday shows this weekend. I'm
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: sure that you and Biden's national security team were thrilled
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: to read about an Air Force general kind of riffing
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: on war with China. That's always a It's always a
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: fun day.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 7: Always a fun, fun Saturday morning reading the newspaper.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: On that one. In the press office.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: But, you know, Derek, this talk is like we can,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: you know, suggest that he shouldn't have put that in
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: a memo or that McCaul's statements are irresponsible. But this
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: is kind of the talk you always hear about China, right?
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: It's this Thucydides trap. Great powers are always going to
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: get into a conflict talk like war is treated as inevitable.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: What do you say to listeners who hear that all
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: the time out of Washington and think, boy, that doesn't
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: sound good. I would prefer to avoid a war with China.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: And can you tell us about anything that the diplomats
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: at the State Department are doing to try to relieve
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: some steam here?
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 7: No, no, absolutely.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 9: I mean, we want to avoid a war as well.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 9: I mean, China is the most complex and consequential relationship
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 9: that we have right now. And I'm sure the United
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 9: States is not alone in feeling that way. Many countries
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 9: around the world feel that way. And, you know, in
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 9: foreign policy, there's often a desire or drive, particularly among
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 9: the chattering class, is to come up with a bumper sticker,
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 9: like what is a containment or what do.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 7: You call it?
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 9: Well, if you wanted to try to sum up our
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 9: China policy, you would need a really long bumper because
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 9: it's hard to boil down into one word because there's
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 9: elements of the relationship that are competitive and we're not
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 9: afraid of competing with China as long as we're playing
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 9: by the same rules. There's an element of the relationship,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 9: and I concede it's a small element right now that's cooperative.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 9: I mean, we've got to cooperate with China on an
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 9: issue like climate change.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 7: I mean, the U.S.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 9: Is responsible for 15% of global emissions. We've got to
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 9: work with others to get the 85% under control, and
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 9: China's a big chunk of that. So there are elements
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 9: we hope to be cooperative, and there are elements of
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 9: the relationship that are conflictual. It doesn't mean it's a conflict,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 9: but we have fundamental differences, and we need to push
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 9: back hard where necessary and try to change China's mind
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 9: and working with our allies and partners.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 7: Alongside us here in this.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 9: So look, we have an intensive amount of diplomacy with China.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 9: President Biden and President Xi have had multiple conversations, including
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 9: one in person late last year on the margins of
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 9: a meeting in Indonesia. Secretary Blinken, in short order, will
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 9: be visiting China to follow up on President Biden's meetings
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 9: with President Xi and and find a way that we
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 9: can put a floor on things. Like we do not,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 9: we believe that this relationship matters greatly to U.S. interests
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 9: in both positively, but negatively as well. And we need
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 9: to work with them to prevent things from spiraling out
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 9: of control and becoming into a conflict that I think
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 9: we and they would want to avoid.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And Secretary Yellen, I think was just there, the
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: treasury secretary. That's a big deal, right? Because I mean,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: with COVID, with China's COVID restrictions, I believe only John Huntsman,
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: the U.S. ambassador to China, was maybe the only person
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: having meetings with Chinese officials at a senior level for
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: like– Sorry, Nick Burns.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 7: Nick, yeah.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: John Huntsman was Obama's ambassador in 2009. Jesus Christ, man.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: My brain is– Yeah, that's all right. We're leaving it in.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: Nick Burns was the only one who had meetings with
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: Chinese officials for like a couple of years, right?
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 7: Well, in China.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: In China.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 9: We would meet with Chinese officials outside of China. Secretary
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 9: Blinken's had multiple interactions with his counterpart and now he's
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 9: got a new, they just had a shakeup.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 7: So he's got a new counterpart as well. But yeah, right.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 9: Burns was the only one meeting with them in China.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 9: So now China's, I mean, it's interesting also to think about,
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 9: I mean, we We had a huge challenge with COVID.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 9: China's even had a bigger challenge with COVID. As you know,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 9: in the last few weeks, they've been hit with waves
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 9: of COVID that we dealt with a year ago or more.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 9: So now, I mean, this will be Secretary Blinken's first
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 9: trip to China as Secretary of State. So over two
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 9: years in the job, he's finally getting there.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's remarkable. Derek, thank you for this tour of
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: the region. I really appreciate your time and all the
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: good work you're doing.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 7: Thanks, Tommy. Appreciate it.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: All right, we're back.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 4: Before we go, the great Hallie Kiefer is here.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 10: Thank you for having me back.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 3: Of course. I work here, I guess.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 10: What would the other option be? I just wouldn't come.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 10: It would be insane.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: You can know, Joe.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: Anyway, you've got a game for us.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 10: I do. Gentlemen, we have a new game.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 6: It's called What's He Bad At? We've got, basically, the
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 6: premise of it, we play you a clip from Fox News.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 6: A few selected words will be bleeped out, but you'll
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 6: notice the screen as sort of a familiar cant, if
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 6: you will, because all Fox rants follow sort of the
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 6: same formula, sort of a deranged mad lib, if you will.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 6: This is, of course, what we call propaganda, so we're
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 6: having fun, but we're also examining how the right manipulates
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 6: its listeners by tapping into their fear and rage on
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 6: an emotional level.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't need the subtext. No, no, no.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 6: Let's see the dweebs over on Jeopardy do all that, okay? Anywho,
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 6: so we'll be bleeping out the specific thing each particular
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 6: he is mad about, and you'll need to rely on
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 6: context clues to guess what the topic is about.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 10: It is multiple choice, don't worry, because a lot of
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 10: these sound pretty similar. Also, I was kidding earlier. I
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 10: love Jeopardy. I'm kidding again.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: I think it's fine.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: Louis Vertel is going to be upset.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 10: I will fight him. Are you all ready?
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: Now we're ready.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 10: Let us play the first clip.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: This is bigger than any of us. This is about freedom.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: It's about America.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: It's about the right to have. It's what we do.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 8: And now to take that away because a particular company
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 8: or a particular political party has so much power.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 9: I mean, this is what happens in authoritarian regimes.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 7: It doesn't happen in America. So we've got to fight this.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: It could be anything.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: Exactly. The particular company. That makes me think it's about
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: a social media ban. That makes me think it's about
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: a social media ban.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 10: What's he mad about? Here are your options.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 6: We got some options. A, the rumor that the Biden
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 6: administration is going to get rid of gas stoves.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 10: How his beloved Newsmax is losing its contract with DirecTV.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: Ooh.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 6: The release of the so-called Twitter files, or the time
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 6: an Olive Garden waitress refused to say Merry Christmas back
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 6: to him. Sure, it was the middle of January, but
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 6: that's how this works. First, liberals limit Christmas to a
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 6: single month, and then we, I mean they, abolish it entirely. Gentlemen,
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 6: what's he mad about?
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: I think it's Newsmax. That's what I think it's Newsmax.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: I thought it was going.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: To be like Closing Splash Mountain or something Disney related.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: I think it's Newsmax, too.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: What was the first one again?
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 6: We have the rumored gas stoves. Newsmax losing contact with DirecTV.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 6: Twitter Files, I'm not saying Merry Christmas in January.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: I'm going to zag where they zig and go Twitter Files.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 10: Okay, again, Tommy couldn't be more wrong. It's actually me.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 6: It is Newsmax getting dumped by the satellite provider DirecTV.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 6: And then just to give you a little context at home,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 6: in case you, again, there's so much going on. Congressman
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 6: Van Drew and other Republicans feared the loss of Newsmax
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 6: would rob Americans of the right-wing viewpoint.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 10: But don't worry.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 6: DirecTV immediately replaced Newsmax with a new right-wing cable news
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 6: channel called The First. which, of course, has given Bill
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 6: O'Reilly a television show yet again.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: I haven't heard this.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: I didn't even know that. Wow.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: Thanks for educating us about that. I'm going to tune in.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 10: It's like when my local poison store closed.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 6: And I was worried, but luckily a big, beautiful, gigantic
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 6: poison emporium opened right down the street across from the Target.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 10: Saved by the bell.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: To get your poison.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 10: Absolutely.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: You thought you might not be.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: Able to get your poison, but now you can.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 7: Get more poison than ever.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: More poison than ever.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: Pick your poison.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 10: Poison now featuring Bill O'Reilly. Let's play the second clip.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 8: Compassion, which is at the core of the American spirit.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 8: The care for other people. It takes that care and
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 8: it twists it to dark ends. You're seeing some of
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 8: the nicest people in Washington make some of the dumbest
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 8: statements because they've been infected by this brain virus. So
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 8: members of Congress are now trying to spend your money
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 8: on a.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: This is crazy. Let's hope we pull back. Wow, again.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: This is so good.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: Could be anything. That's basically how Tucker... That is Tucker
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: Madlib right there.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 6: It's incredible. Also, the bleep-it makes it sound way cooler.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 6: They're actually talking about something filthy.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 10: It's like, I wish.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: That'd be more fun.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're not crazy. The world is crazy.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: It's something to do with Congress.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 6: Okay, let's hear the options. A, more federal funding for
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 6: the Ukrainian army. Okay. B, more federal funding for refugees
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 6: at the border. C, a monument at the Capitol for
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 6: Ukrainian President Zelensky. D, a new laptop for Hunter Biden,
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 6: because you.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 10: Know that guy's going to lose it.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 3: Okay, he's going to.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 10: Put it on a... park bench in Delaware.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 6: Interestingly, were you all aware that Delaware's state bird is
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 6: Hunter Biden's laptop?
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 10: Actually, it's not, but what if it was? Your thoughts?
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: No, it'd be cool if it was.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: It'd be cool if it was.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: Dan was here. He would love this Delaware contest.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: He's going to run on that platform when he runs
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: for Senate.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: He takes on Chris Coons.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: Changing the state bird.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 3: Takes on establishment figure Chris Coons.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: Giving him the bird.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 6: Wait, what were the options again? A, more federal funding
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 6: for the Ukrainian army. B, more federal funding for refugees
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 6: at the border. C, a monument.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 10: At the capital for the Ukrainian president, Zelensky.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: It's Airbnb.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 10: And a new laptop for Hunter Biden. That's what you
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 10: should run on.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 6: You get a free laptop if Hunter Biden is elected president,
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 6: but you got to find it somewhere.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 10: It's just loose in Delaware.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: I think it's A. I think it's Ukraine.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: I think it's A too.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 5: Levin?
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: Are you going to zig?
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: Are you going to zag?
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: Or zig, whatever it is.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: I think the fact that there were two Ukrainian options
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: is why I think it's A.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 10: So you're all going A?
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: I also don't think we've done any more border funding. Anyway,
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: go ahead.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 6: It is C, actually, a bronze statue of President Zelensky.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 6: Republican Congressman Joe Wilson asked the House Fine Arts Board
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 6: to obtain a bust of the Ukrainian president and find, quote,
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 6: a suitable permanent location for it at the U.S.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 10: Capitol.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 6: Tucker's not having it, but I personally, I will fund
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 6: it entirely myself and will fund anything that specifically makes
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 6: Tucker Carlson enraged. As this segment implies, that's good for
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 6: my pocketbook because he's mad at a lot of stuff.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 10: What do you guys think about that?
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: Tucker's right. We do not need a bust of President
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: Zelensky in the Capitol. What are we doing here, people?
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: We're going to put a bust of a comedian in
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: the Capitol.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: It's going to be you.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: Bill Maher.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: Can we just get like a bobblehead or a votive candle?
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: What about a picture? What about a big nice framed picture?
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: Printed on an AP photo.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: I'll get a bobblehead right next to my Mueller bobblehead.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: If you get the high resolution, what is it?
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: Right next to my Fauci one.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 3: It's for commercial use.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: The three wise men.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: Fauci. It might be like a thousand bucks.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: The three wise men of the resistance. Fauci.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: Mueller.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: Zelensky.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: Listen, I got some scar tissue from a poorly located
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: Prime Minister bus.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: It's a bad idea.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: Listen, I don't think your district is out of problems.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: I think you should focus on those. Joe Wilson said
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 3: you lie. He's the guy that shouted you lie.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 10: If we could play the next clip.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 8: First gas stoves, then your coffee, now you're gunning for
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 8: my a * *.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 3: Isn't it crazy, though?
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 8: Like, when we were kids, you were a rebel if
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 8: you had, like, a leather jacket and a pack of cigarettes.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 8: I mean, it's crazy what they're doing, but we understand
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 8: what this is.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: They're trying to recruit your kids.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: Into * * * * * * at an earlier age.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I didn't think of that.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 10: You're right.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 8: They're going after the children.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: Of course they are.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 4: I know.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: I have a vague memory of this.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to say a word. I just.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: I'm going to get it with the multiple choice.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 6: Gentlemen, America's children are being lured into wokeism again.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 10: What is the culprit this time?
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 6: A woke Pop-Tarts... This is inspired actually by a Pride
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 6: Month product, the neon pink block party lemonade flavor. Okay. B,
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 6: woke video game console, specifically the Xbox. C, woke Disney
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 6: for closing Splash Mountain. And then finally, woke Easy Bake
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 6: Ovens inspired by a recent ad that threatens the masculinity
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 6: of Americans used by depicting a little boy making brownies.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 6: That little brownie loving boy is clearly gay. You could
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 6: just tell. Kids shouldn't be exposed to that. What do
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 6: you think the answer is?
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: In all of the above?
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: It's going to be the Xbox.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: I do think, though, in fairness to the Republicans, I
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: think it is weird that the Pride Pop-Tart is cum-flavored.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 7: Wow.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 10: And I didn't notice when I had one. I'll be honest.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 10: I'm like, I guess that's what Pink Lemonade never had it.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: What show is this? Positive America.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 10: I'd say America After Dark.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: So John said Xbox.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: Xbox.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 10: Are we all going Xbox?
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: I know that it is Xbox.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 6: It is Xbox, of course, in case you missed it,
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 6: listener in the deluge of shit that is every week
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 6: in the news. Xbox has released a software update that
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 6: allows its devices to save electricity by going into sleep
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 6: mode when it's not being used. Fox saying the new
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 6: woke Xbox is both ruining the fun of video games
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 6: and making kids think about the environment much too early.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 6: And we can all agree the best time for children
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 6: to think about climate change is when the salt water
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 6: from the rising sea levels just destroys their Xbox entirely.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 3: And not a moment before. That is so stupid. It's
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: stupid on such another level because the actual Xbox update
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 3: is they just changed how the power saving mode works
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 3: to save a little more power.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, that's it. It's very simple.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 3: All it is is just like, hey, guys, it's called
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 3: power saving mode. We're not doing sleep mode anymore.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: It takes nothing away from you.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: It's nothing from anyone.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: Even the little bit of inconvenience.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 3: It's nothing.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: It's nothing.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 3: It's nothing.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: Wow. Wow.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 10: And finally, we got one more.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 8: Oh.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 10: And we got one for the ladies.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 10: Let's play the clip.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 8: Were the dads here? I mean, why doesn't anyone put
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 8: a stop to this? Again, just to be completely clear,
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 8: is a crime, and it's certainly a moral crime, and
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 8: I'm just amazed that people sit back and let it happen.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned the dads, Tucker.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 9: Yes. A lot of the people that are single mothers,
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 9: I don't know if there's a pattern there or what.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 8: What?
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 6: Now, I think this is important because he said it's
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 6: a crime, and then has to correct himself and say
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 6: it's a moral crime, because it is, of course, not
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 6: actually a crime, what he's talking about.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 10: He's just throwing out the word crime.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 3: But he is trying to incite his viewers to hurt people. Absolutely.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 3: So that's great.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 10: Yeah.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 6: Are these single mothers taking their children to, A, a
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 6: Christmas-themed drag show, B, helping their young daughters seek abortions
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 6: out of state, C, bringing their kids to, quote-unquote, Antifa protests,
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 6: or D, forcing their children to beat each other up
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 6: in an underground toddler fight club while onlookers watch and
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 6: place tiny bets.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: Gentlemen.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: Cute little tiny bets. Toddler-sized bets.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: I think D was in the Game of Thrones spinoff.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: Wasn't it in this last season?
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 10: Toddler fight club?
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: It was like a little kid fight club in a
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: show I watched recently.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: I think you dreamt it.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: The House of Dragon, yeah.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 3: I think it would be cool if we gaslit Tommy
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: to thinking that he never saw that. Wait, what were
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 3: the first? What were A, B, and C again?
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 6: Taking their kids to a Christmas-themed all-ages drag show. Helping
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 6: their young daughters seek abortions out of state. Bringing their
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 6: kids to, quote-unquote, Antifa protests. And, of course, Toddler Fight Club.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, A feels the most likely. It does.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: It does.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: But I feel like they're trying to get.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: Us with this.
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 3: I remember him saying this thing about basically how are
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 3: people just letting this happen. And I do remember, I
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 3: feel like it was about drags. I actually thought it
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 3: was about, yeah, I think it's about Drag Story Hour.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: That's what I think. I think it's A. Yeah, me too.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 10: Tommy, how are you feeling?
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling an A too.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 10: All right. You are correct.
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 3: It is A.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 10: Taking their kids to drag shows.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 6: Tucker was interviewing right-wing troll and self-described drag phobe, Tyler Henson,
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 6: who recorded an all-ages Christmas drag show in San Antonio, Texas,
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 6: which he claimed was inappropriate and... The venue then had
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 6: to cancel all of its drag shows for the rest
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 6: of the years out of safety concerns. This is just
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 6: one of the many examples of drag performers being targeted
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 6: by the right wing. According to the ACLU, Republican state
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 6: houses introduced 315 anti-LGBTQ bills in 2022. Thankfully, only 29
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 6: passed the law, but that's 29 too many. But Tucker's
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 6: not entirely wrong, because as a woman who doesn't have
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 6: a man to physically control me, I do go to
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 6: drag shows a lot. And if anyone needs me to
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 6: record one, I'm happy to do so. But I can
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 6: tell you right now what you're going to see. Me
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 6: having the goddamn time of my life. Gentlemen, that's our game.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 10: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me back.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 10: I work here. I have to be here.
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 4: Thank you for hosting another fantastic game. Thank you to
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 4: State Department Counselor Derek Chalet for joining us today. And
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 4: we'll talk to you later this week.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: Bye, guys.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 4: The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 4: Andy Gardner Bernstein. Our producers are Haley Muse and Olivia Martinez.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 4: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin and
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 4: Charlotte Landis sound engineered the show. Thanks to Hallie Kiefer,
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 4: Ari Schwartz, Sandy Gerard, Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 4: production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford,
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 4: Milo Kim, and Amelia Montu. Our episodes are uploaded as
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 4: videos at youtube.com slash podsaveamerica.