Latest / Under The Fur / When Vet Med Breaks You - Sarah’s Story of Burnout, Self-Trust and Finding Hope

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When Vet Med Breaks You - Sarah’s Story of Burnout, Self-Trust and Finding Hope · Under The Fur

• speaker-0: Hi, I am Dr. Vanessa, a veterinarian, and we are here for the podcast Under the Fur, where we talk about all things in and outside of veterinary. And I'm so happy today to have my lovely guest, Sarah, who is a veterinarian and has gone very different ways in the veterinary industry to me. So we're going to discuss some of that today. Sarah, would you tell us your history, speaker-1: Sure. So I was at vet school with you, ⁓ graduated in 2008, went into small animal clinical practice, and unfortunately, after not very long in practice, only six years, I got to the point where it wasn't sustainable for me because of the stress levels, the overwhelm, mental health challenges. So I left clinical practice completely, went into management consulting for a decade. Curveball. Curveball. Working with pharma companies, banks, NHS England, all sorts of organizations doing transformational change and culture work. And then I ended up training as a coach, had a bit of a light bulb moment of ⁓ this was the help that I needed when I was back in practice. So I then pivoted round and I now have my own training and coaching business. purely focused on veterinary professionals, helping them to support their well being and basically give them the help that I wish I had had but didn't. And yeah. speaker-0: What's the name of your company now? It's Proud of it. I am proud of it. So let's go back because I've recently discovered this about you. speaker-1: Positivity in practice. And it's mine, yes. ⁓ bless you. Thanks for Yeah. speaker-0: or hate. speaker-1: It was a really tough time for me. ⁓ so I loved aspects of it. Yeah. I loved the social part, I loved the friends that I made, all that kind of thing. But the academic part speaker-0: it. speaker-1: It was really tough and it I nearly didn't finish, to be honest. And it by the end of the course, I was even like, I don't even know if I want to be a vet anymore. But I thought, well, you've got this far, so you at least need to give it a go. Yeah. but yeah, in terms of a learning environment, it didn't work for my type of learning. I feel like the level of detail that they went into was completely unnecessary for. What you actually need on day one of being a vet. speaker-0: The Krebs cycle is very useful, do you not think? When I see a cat bite abscess, I think, what about the Krebs cycle? speaker-1: But it just like literally, like the level of detail we l ⁓ the prep cycle and DNA replication, all of that stuff. Yeah. And all the stuff that we learnt about human medicine that was three years speaker-0: pretty much based apart from anatomy, luckily pretty much based on human. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. So we learned all about like how to manage heart attacks and stuff. Yeah. Which yeah. speaker-0: When I tell people that I was that they're astonished. we were nine till five lectures and Saturdays from the second year and Saturday mornings. ⁓ One of the things that saved me in university, cause if I'm honest, I fucking hated it. I didn't get on with Cambridge. I didn't go on with people there. I wasn't accepted. Me and you hated each other. ⁓ I thought your friend group was very mean to me. Really? Yeah. speaker-1: We did. Yeah. Yeah. We did. speaker-0: We should get them on. I think we'd get over it now, but it was awful. I didn't have a friendship group other than sports and sports have as often saved me and we didn't get Wednesday afternoons off. We didn't. And in fact, I kept bunking lectures to go and I was very frowned upon, but I wouldn't have survived if I didn't do the sports. speaker-1: I'm so sorry I didn't We didn't. That's really interesting. And I think, you know, we're now in our forties. Yeah. I think we both have much more self-awareness and much more awareness of people around us and empathy for others. But yeah. At the time I had no idea that you found it difficult. Because I actually thought that you were very competent confident. Yeah. You were very strong academically. You I always would think of you as being in the past merit group, whereas I was always in the Is she g is she gonna pass this? And I didn't always. I did fail quite a few exams. I didn't really ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: about you Maybe because we didn't like each other and we didn't talk about it. Did your friends know? Your friendship group, did they know you were struggling? speaker-1: We didn't I think they always knew that it was kind of touch and go as to whether or not I was going to pass every exam. Yeah. And that wasn't it wasn't just me who was in that category, others were as well. Yeah. But I think it was I don't I don't think I knew how much I was struggling. I think I was just like this it this is really hard. Yeah. But vet school was supposed to be hard and Cambridge is supposed to be hard. So I just need to keep get speaker-0: Six years of hard, that's a long time. Imagine what that did to our brains. I wasn't okay when I left. And you went straight into practice. And I've spoken to some people since we discovered that we both didn't really like Cambridge and it was a struggle. I've spoken to a couple of other people and we're not on our own. speaker-1: Yeah. I wasn't okay. Really? Yeah. But I think we found it difficult for quite different reasons. Yes. Which is interesting. Yeah. and I don't know if it was just Cambridge or if I would have had the same experience at any vet school. But I do remember so like you said, our our days were really jam packed. Yeah, exactly. Exhausting. In the evenings there's this I think it's unique to Cambridge, these supervisions. Yeah. Where you would go in a group of two, three, maybe four, and you would have detailed conversations about a particular subject that you're covering at the moment, like biochemistry. And you would have that at like eight o'clock at night. Yeah. And you would have essays to do for each of those supervisions. And I And there's Yeah. Yeah. And and I the way I learn speaker-0: well four week wasn't there. speaker-1: I need to focus on the one thing and really absorb it. So I didn't get anything from any of the lectures because you would have the lecturer speaking. There'd be something on the slide that wasn't exactly what they were saying, and then there'd be something in the handout, which was a third thing to reference. And so my brain just couldn't I couldn't absorb the information in lectures, but I felt like I should be at the lectures because otherwise I'd be missing something out. speaker-0: I've had the same thing. don't learn from lectures. can't listen. pick up a things if they're really fascinating. But otherwise, who does that work for? Does that work for anybody? speaker-1: No, I can I don't know. I don't know. But then I went to my first supervision expecting it to be okay, let's go through the lecture in a small group and make sure that you understand. But no, it was let's take it to the next level. Let's quiz you on what was in the lectures. My very first supervision, I was in tears before I was even out of the staircase. And I thought I thought it was me. speaker-0: The should have been there to support you. You shouldn't be leaving NTAs. You should have gone and received help. speaker-1: But that's not that wasn't the vibe. That wasn't the I don't think I really had the relationship with any of my supervisors where I could maybe a couple actually. Yeah. ⁓ more in the in the clinical space. But there wasn't that There wasn't that kind of relationship with them. Right. And besides they were then Yeah. That doesn't surprise me. speaker-0: I remember I was banned from histology. Histology? Yeah. I'm not sure how me and Jenny got managed to get ourselves banned from the practical session. Yes. And I had to write a letter begging to let me back in so I could pass my course. speaker-1: In Preclin. See, I didn't know that. And you say you you say that you felt you didn't have a friendship group. I've got this memory of you having that really solid core friendship group and you would always in clinical years, I remember like you guys would always be the last in, even though you live the closest to set school. And I don't know, it just seemed like you were this solid little gang. So I think I'm sorry. ⁓ speaker-0: I felt very alone. I did have friends, but I felt alone most of the time. Yeah. For six years. This is difficult, isn't it? Yeah. So what I've realized, I just think we were all struggling. And maybe it was our age. We didn't recognize it. Yeah. It was just, it's an archaic system, isn't it? Cambridge. Maybe it does need to be burnt down and rebuilt. speaker-1: Is Think I think evolution needs to happen. And I think we need to be clear, like I've not had any contact with Cambridge in the last I mean it's nearly twenty years since we graduated. So stuff may have changed. things may be different. Certainly the lectures now, the fact that they're all now recorded and online, that would have been amazing for me because you could pause it, you could speaker-0: I did one visit. speaker-1: go back, you could watch it again. Yeah. You could just read the transcript. Yeah. You could just get the transcript, whack it into AI, say, What's the important stuff that I need to know? speaker-0: They give me the bullet points. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I should get someone from Cambridge here. So I feel like you weren't set up to survive. If you came out to vet school with that level of self doubt, it sounds like your confidence took a massive hit already. And probably not in the happiest place. Doubting if you wanted to be a vet or not. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: and then you're thrown straight back in, straight into clinical practice. And I remember when we qualified, they didn't have the new grad schemes that we have now. The new graduates didn't have support. I, my first was with a corporate, goods and bads about it, but I was supposed to have three weeks of shadowing and then out on my own. think I had three minutes. and they were busy and I was in a consult not having a clue what I was doing. ⁓ And the whole saying common things are common. That's what they say to us. And a common things are common. If it's a lump on a cat's tail, it's probably a cat by the abscess. Did we see a single cat by abscess when we were in Cambridge University? speaker-1: Well this is the this is the other issue with that model of teaching. Yeah. is it I don't feel like it did necessarily prepare us that well for day one. We did do the RSPCA clinic, so we did do some first opinion stuff and we obviously did do our our no, it was more than that. speaker-0: Was that two days? Maybe I bunked, was it on a Wednesday? I did take a brain tumour out though with the neurology team. speaker-1: I did a total hip replacement with the orthopedic team. speaker-0: You'd love that dream. You'd have to dream. but I'll make it. didn't see any cat by the abscesses. see them daily now. speaker-1: We did in we did in RSPCA. But this was one of the other things that I struggled with is the level of detail that they went into in each discipline, whether it was neurology or pathology or yeah or parasitology. ⁓ god Do you remember the dozens of lectures on parasitology? There was but there was this there was this kind of thing of of but you just pick out the bits that that speaker-0: how unnecessary. speaker-1: Just learn the important stuff. Just learn what's re and I felt like, but I don't know. I can't prioritize this. I don't know what the important stuff is. So I'm just gonna desperately try and learn it all. And so that's what I did. And I I read very slowly. Like I read at the speed at which I speak because I say it aloud in my head. And ⁓ as a result, if there is an hour-long lecture, it takes me an hour to read it. And Mutual friend Ben he very kindly worked out that if I continued at this pace of revision, I would have read all the lectures once three weeks after our our exams had finished. And I was just ⁓ Were you aware, Sarah, that at this pace you're gonna be finished I was like How is that a helpful comment, Ben? No, of course not. speaker-0: Yeah. He worked that out for you! ⁓ no. Did you have a solution? Oh, did you AI? speaker-1: I we did. But it was just that kind of I had that feeling of I've got all this knowledge in my head. I just need to get into practice. So I was in practice within six weeks of graduating because I was so scared I was gonna forget it all. Like you said, we didn't have the new grad schemes. I think I had a week of shadowing and then a week of my boss being in with me. Yep. ⁓ speaker-0: just to make sure you're pricing it upright. speaker-1: wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. And then I think I had maybe a week of double consults, like duration of consults. And then was that twenty. Twenty. And then so yeah, normal consult was ten. Yeah. And then then that was it. And I was and I was then the vet in the rotor. And this is like, you know, no specific speaker-0: 30 minutes then, or 20. speaker-1: disrespect to that practice because this was a while ago now. That that was just what happened. And obviously the profession has learned from that, which is why there are now the grad schemes. But yeah, so week four of being in practice was my first weekend working and and ⁓ the my practice, we had two branches. I was based at one particular branch, ⁓ which meant weekends you covered both branches, you were solech and then I was solech when I was doing my evening shifts and then think one or two afternoons a week as well. So that kind of made me think, well, I should know everything. I'm doing this on my own. So I shouldn't be asking for help. I shouldn't be struggling. And I would go back to my flat in the evenings and I would have all my university books and I would be swatting up and trying to prepare and and that that practice there I had challenges there with the leadership and the leadership changed and but by that point I'd kind of got to the point where I was like, This isn't the right practice. So I I moved on. But I went into locoming. So then eighteen months out so this speaker-0: This was pretty, it sounds very isolating. speaker-1: Very isolating. Yeah. speaker-0: think you'd be more or less isolated as a locum. speaker-1: But I thought that was normal. Right. So I didn't I didn't know at that point what I was missing. Okay. Because I didn't know that practices other practices were more supportive, other practices had more experienced nursing teams, for example. Yeah. ⁓ because a lot of our nurses were pretty early in their careers or still training. speaker-0: your how many vets were at your practice? speaker-1: Think there was four across the two sites, but we usually had at least one long term locum. Okay. That were kind of swap. ⁓ crikey. ⁓ maybe six, seven? speaker-0: nurses. Any experienced ones? Or all young? Not young, but you know, less experienced. speaker-1: There was one who was experienced and then there were a couple who I think everybody was in their twenties or late teens. speaker-0: Cause really you want that nurse that's going to save your butt, don't you? When you're starting out. Yeah. You're that nurse that's seen it all and will stop you from doing stupid shit. speaker-1: Yeah. But I also felt like I shouldn't need them to do that. Yeah. So I think I had this this expectation very high expectations on myself. Yeah. And when you've got very high expectations on yourself, then there's the scope to have a lot of doubt on yourself as well. ⁓ so yeah, I just expected myself to know everything, do everything. Did that speaker-0: stop you from asking for help. speaker-1: think what stopped me asking for help was the the kind of dynamic with the more senior vets. speaker-0: Are they mean? Judgmental? speaker-1: This is kind of a hard question to answer, given that individual may see. speaker-0: not naming them. ⁓ speaker-1: No. It it I don't think that they were just the best mentor. Like like I said, there were some days when I would be in afternoons when I'd be in the branch on my own, or I would it would be me and another vet kind of a peer, and we would look forward to those days. So we would look forward to the I would look forward to the days when I didn't have that senior figure there. Yeah. So Yeah, it wasn't I didn't f I didn't feel comfortable it felt like for me to ask to ask for help it needed to be a big enough thing in order to warrant the potential n negativity that would come back my way. Yeah. So I just thought that being a vet, I should be able to do everything. So I then asked speaker-0: help you would have been punished in some way for it. speaker-1: Not not specifically punished, but like maybe it was just that I was sensitive. Maybe speaker-0: Was it more like a, well, this is the answer. don't you bother me? Why are asking me questions? Yeah. Get on with it. Why don't you know it? speaker-1: Dismiss it. Yeah. Yeah. That extreme, but I had to put it this way I was bitten one weekend over my thumb on my right hand by a dog, and I had the scar. I mean the scar's still there, so it was it was reasonably deep. I went and had it flushed out and dressed at minor injuries. Yep. And when speaker-0: This experience certainly happened to me. speaker-1: the clinical director saw the bandage on Monday, he was like That's not one of our bat you've got did you go to hospital for that? ⁓ And it's like, well speaker-0: Yes, it's a dirty dog bite. speaker-1: It's like, well, yeah. Yeah. So i it I felt like I had to grow a thick skin there. speaker-0: Now I do talk to some people like that in a savage way, but you've got to know who you're talking to. is what I know. They know my sense of humor and I can let that out. I'm not going to say that to my new grads. speaker-1: And I wish good friends. But I wonder if that was part of the problem. I wonder if I maybe portrayed more confidence and more self esteem than I had. but I wasn't the only person. I don't think that's on you though. I wasn't the only person. There were there were people. speaker-0: are the leading, the responsibility is on them to make sure that they are not upsetting members of their staff. speaker-1: Yeah. And there were other people in that practice who also didn't have the best time. Yeah. But equally there were people who had a fantastic time. So so yeah, I went into locoming. That involved a lot of soul charge, but I just kind of assumed, well, this is what being a vet is. And then I got a job running a soul charge branch for another group. This is I was running a soul charge branch at th three years. speaker-0: Is less than two years qualified? three years qualified, okay. Which is okay to do at that stage, but lonely. speaker-1: Yeah. Lonely. And I was really far from the hospital. So I never saw any other bets. Yeah. And this was back in the day when speaker-0: soul charged practices because no one wants to do it. And rightfully so, you're just going to have staff turnover. Fun. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. It's not So I was there three years nearly. speaker-0: Three years as a locum? ⁓ okay, so you locum'd and then you... speaker-1: No no, it's a permanent. ⁓ So I locumed in various different places. Yeah. And then I And then you then I went there. And and I just remember standing in the prep room and just thinking, Is is this it? Is this is this my life? Is this what I'm gonna be doing for the next So I was twenty nine at this point. Yeah. Is this what I'm gonna be doing for the next forty years of my life? speaker-0: Isn't six years the average time now for a vet and then they leave the breast? I'm sure. speaker-1: ⁓ I don't say that 'cause that makes me average. I don't want to be average. ⁓ speaker-0: Especially what you're doing now. You're not average. Don't you worry girl. ⁓ but I've heard I probably should check these facts on the grapevine. speaker-1: You can put some text on the screen. speaker-0: Most vets now leave by six years after ⁓ graduating. They're done with it and they're out the door. speaker-1: Surely it it can't be most. It can't be the majority. speaker-0: amount. There are barely any experienced vets left in practice. When I was trying to recruit, it was a nightmare to get ⁓ an experienced vet. I actually really needed an experienced vet to come and have my back. I ended up getting a new grad instead because I couldn't fill the role. My new grad is amazing. I'm so happy with the decision now, but at that time for my workload and my stress, I really needed an experienced vet, but they're gold dust. speaker-1: The practice where I take my puppy, they've recruited a new they've expanded their team and have recruited a a new vet and they said it was really tough to find an experience with as well. Yeah. Have you noticed a difference with the new grads based on where they graduate from? Or would you say you've worked with too few to be able to identify? speaker-0: I I need more. ⁓ I don't have enough. I have a vet that came from Surrey. She's amazing. She's my newest one. So I'm thinking of that because that's a new vet school as well. ⁓ And what I thought was, I don't know how they're going to come out of Surrey and if they're going to be better or worse, but she's day one competency is very good. More practical, more used to the common things that I wasn't used to. whatever they're doing there, I think they're doing a good job. speaker-1: Hm. I mean, to some extent, you know, I came out being able to do all the routine neuterings. I was perfectly comfortable doing all of those on my own, lumpectomies, like all that sort of thing. So in that respect I surgically strong. Surgically I felt I felt strong. Yeah. speaker-0: came out. ⁓ I don't think they're coming out surgically strong now. None of them will jump in and take some balls off by themselves. I would have happily done that day one. you? Yeah, me too. was spaced by myself day one actually. Yeah, I was. Absolutely not. Not now. But they're better in the consult room. speaker-1: I wonder if Which arguably is harder to teach. So Yeah. You know. Yeah. It's easier to upskill the surgical stuff in practice, I think. Hope f if there's the the right kind of stuff being there. How did you find it? 'Cause you you didn't go straight into practice like I did. speaker-0: Hopefully. No, I went to India, ⁓ which might have been a moment of madness. speaker-1: India's amazing, so that's a fabulous experience to have it speaker-0: Great experience. And I went out then I somehow made a friend who had a friend who was setting up a charity, some charity stuff in India. And I just said, okay, I'm going to qualify in July. Can you, if you fly me out, I'll come and help. With stray dogs. ⁓ and now actually it's a huge thing. It's straight donkeys and like all kinds, any species can go there. ⁓ so I said, yeah, I'll go out and help. problem. This sounds great. So. speaker-1: Like animal charity. Yeah. speaker-0: me and my rucksack off we went and I was the only vet there. I didn't have a nurse. ⁓ We were sterilizing in a pressure cooker in the back of a factory and I just started neutering the stray dogs and yeah, just dogs at that place. ⁓ And it was great. So we were doing that. Then I went from, that was central India. Then I went from there to Calcutta where they were setting up the project, but the project wasn't ready yet. speaker-1: The only vet speaker-0: ⁓ where I just got to put some input in and to see some things and, it was an amazing experience. And maybe that set me up because if you can go as a new grad and go to the back of a factory and operate on dogs and is all fine, you can come back pretty confident. And then, yeah, only when I came back in maybe September time, September, something like that, I took a job. speaker-1: Yeah. And that was a was that in a big practice or speaker-0: It was a what they call a floating position. speaker-1: ⁓ that's tough for a new grad. Which speaker-0: Which is what they start, they did start what all of their new grads doing. They didn't place them in hospitals or the big clinics, which is absolutely where you should be as a new grad. ⁓ But I did it and I was okay because I was ballsy as fuck. I had all of the confidence and so I was fine. I didn't like the environment. I thought they were a big bunch of bullies running that company. They were mean. They sucked the life out of you. My hours were horrendous. I was exhausted, but I learned a lot and my clinical work I was happy with. I learned at a rapid speed. built surgical skills really, really rapidly. Then I was lucky to be placed in one of the main hospitals with this fantastic surgeon that taught me how to do orthopedic surgery. speaker-1: Is this where your love of orthopedics came from? Yes. Did you was that your jam that was speaker-0: I knew I was surgical. Yeah. I'm very much surgery. didn't know I loved orthopedics until someone put a drill in my hand. And I just thought, is amazing. This is what I want to do. Yeah. So that's, that is where I came from. So I didn't like the company. I still don't like the company, but they gave me a lot. Yeah. And when I left that company, speaker-1: Yeah, I was always Right. speaker-0: I actually went through a period of what I would call exhaustion and potentially depression. then I suddenly sort of, just two weeks was in bed. couldn't get out of bed. It was bizarre. Nothing I'd ever experienced before. Thankfully I took a month between that and starting a new job. And I then suddenly started to see the sunshine again, you know? And I was like, I'm going to come out. And I started being myself again and I started wanting to go and see friends and hadn't been. And I started, you know, I play a lot of sports. I was dragging myself to basketball training. Whereas now I was skipping there instead and I was excited to go and train and I didn't feel dead on my feet anymore. I'm glad I left. was hard. I was scared to leave. This is the other thing. Something inside me knew I needed to leave that job and go and find a better job and a better life. ⁓ but I was scared. thought no one's going to employ me. Who's going to want me? Where am I going to find a job? I didn't know where to go looking for jobs. I don't have that many vet friends. I didn't know who to ask about it for advice. ⁓ but I did find a job and it was all fine. And it was absolutely the right thing to do, but a very, very scary thing to do. then went into night work, which I thought of as my career break. How bizarre that is bizarre. How bizarre, but, ⁓ very fun. Turns out I love emergency work. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: I don't love not sleeping at night because as I told you earlier, I'm very good at sleeping. have a solid eight to 10 hours every night. being woken up constantly through your sleep cycle is really tough, but I did love the emergency work. And it was a better life balance, work life balance, because ⁓ the shifts I was on, I usually managed to get a bit of sleep. And so then the next day I would just nap and get up and get on with my day, go to the gym. ⁓ see my partner, see friends, that kind of thing. It did take away my weekends, which in your twenties is not great. Yeah. So I do feel like I missed that a little. ⁓ I was paid better. So I had money to do stuff ⁓ and it was good. And I lasted about two years. And then I decided I'm ready to go back into general practice. speaker-1: Right. Interesting. What you were saying there about your your experience of the level of exhaustion and potentially depression and and how you you you realize that you'd been dragging yourself to basketball rather than skipping to basketball. I think that's really I think that's really interesting because I don't think as veterinary professionals we fully understand how much of an impact th the the training, then the working and everything has on us from a neurological and physiological basis because it is so consuming. Yeah. And our expectations on ourselves are so high, the external expectations are are so high. So when I left clinical practice, as I mentioned, I I left veterinary completely and went into a completely different world. And I thought that would be the solution. I thought I'm not going to be stressed because it's veterinary that's making me stressed. But I was still stressed. I was still a perfectionist. I still doubted myself. I would still check things a million times before sending the document or the email. I would rather than replaying consults in my head once I got home, I'd be replaying meetings that I'd been having with people in my head when I got home. And so that's when I learned ⁓ it's not it's not just veterinary. It's how I have learned to deal with stress. And so then when I ⁓ did my coaching training, I then started to explore more about the neuroscience of what we actually experience and the psychology and all of that sort of thing. and I think that has such a big impact on how we function as people and as professionals. I really wish that I knew all of that when I was back in vet school because I think I'd have then been much better at self-regulating. I would have then been leading a much more balanced, healthy life because I would have understood what was going on. Yeah. Whereas we don't really know that. And so the people who I work with now, I've got people from who some people are reasonably new in their veterinary careers, then I've got some people who are. practice owners and they're doubting themselves and they're replaying the consults in their head in the evening and they've got all of this stuff going on and nobody's ever explained to them how to challenge that voice in their head or how to actually relax or how to get their nervous system out of sympathetic fight or flight and back into rest and digest. Parasympathetic. Yeah. And if what you were saying, what you were saying about when you had that gap between your roles, like you couldn't get out of bed. That was your body pr like I shouldn't be making a diagnosis here, but I suspect that was your body that's probably been in fight or flight, sympathetic for so long, months, years, that it just went like I've got I've got Shut down. Shut down. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. speaker-0: Yeah. It's happened to me twice. It happened after another job as well. same, almost exactly the same pattern. And that job was stressful and long hours. I was constantly being watched. I watch your every move and they weigh you down and they say, you know, they make you do things that you would put a hard line in sand. I must leave on a Thursday. It is my half day. I must go at two. I'm going to go and I'm going to do this and I'm to do that. And this is why I need for my life. They'd slowly weigh you down and suddenly you were leaving at five instead and it was expected of you and that kind of thing. So they almost took away my coping mechanisms, which you know me for me it is sport. Yeah. But that's removed from you or it's added on top of it. So you're just more exhausted. speaker-1: It's interesting because when you apply to vet school, you it's competitive. Yes. Your application needs to demonstrate that you are not just a science geek, but that you are a well rounded individual who has other activities or other passions in their life. Yes. And those are the things that actually kept us healthy. Yes. But then through vet school. People manage to keep those kind of interests going to d varying degrees. But I didn't I just boxing butt those things. But then in clinical practice, like you say, those the rotors and things don't make that very easy, if at all. And so you've then got the fact that you don't have speaker-0: taken away. No. speaker-1: your usual mechanisms of keeping you healthy, which is in your case with sport, you don't have the opportunity to connect with other people as much because you're working weekends or evenings or whatever. Yes. And that's hugely important. speaker-0: Standing up your friends. I've lost friends because you stand them up. Don't you? You say, I'm working till six. I'll come and meet you afterwards. Something comes in at five. We're vets. We care. We're going to stay and we're going to sort it out. And then next thing you know, it's nine o'clock and you, know, your friends have enough of speaker-1: Yeah. And then you've got literally the the physical challenge of those long shifts being on your feet all day. You've got the cognitive challenge because you're dealing with a million and one different things at once. You've got the emotional challenge. So you know your emotions are up and down, and there are there are many occasions where you're not even able to express your emotions because it's not appropriate in that situation, or you're on to the next client and you know. They don't want to see that emotion because it's not relevant for their animal. And so that is a lot. Like if you actually think what veterinary professionals, and we've been talking here purely about vets, really, because that's obviously our context, but it's not just vets, it's the whole veterinary team. Yeah. If you put all of those different layers of challenge and think about what they are doing to us on a physiological emotional, psychological level, it is zero surprise that there are so many people struggling in this profession and so many people leaving it. Yeah. speaker-0: And if we're lucky, they're leaving alive. Yeah. It's a tough one, isn't it? I had a conversation with my daughter. Well, actually my husband did. And he said, maybe you should go on mommy's podcast and tell people what it's like to have a mama's event. And I thought she was going to say, sometimes she doesn't make it to my basketball game. She just started playing. She's 11. speaker-1: ⁓ wow, so she's old enough to fully get what's going on. Yeah. speaker-0: I'm so proud. And she said, ⁓ moody grumpy tired. It's just like, So that's the first things that come to your mind when you want to tell someone what your mum is as a vet. speaker-1: If she expressed an interest in going into the veterinary world, how would you feel? Really? speaker-0: Absolutely not. They asked me this on the Panorama interview. speaker-1: Did they cut it out? They cut it out. speaker-0: ⁓ I think I actually cried and they said what, and they were shocked and they'd been investigating the veterinary industry. And I thought, must see what we're dealing with. I feel like we're on our knees at the moment. You know, and there's a few of us like, we're trying to change things, aren't we? And we're trying to get this better. We're still fighting when our alone, but we are on our knees. It's tough. So I thought they must know this. They're investigating the veterinary industry. and they said, what? Would you like your children to be vets? And I cried and I said, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I don't want them to deal with this. I want them to have a happy life. And I have never thought that I've disliked my job and I don't. do love being a vet. I've been doing it for a long time and I love it. speaker-1: But you've created your your little niche, your your own little haven where you can be you and you can practice in the way that you want to practice and you can protect yourself and your team from the external pressures that that others aren't protected from. Yeah. ⁓ so I can understand that you enjoy your job, but because you've seen the the profession outside of that little haven't possible. speaker-0: I've seen what happened to people and it, yeah, it's risky. Isn't it? You don't want your children exposed to this. They might be tough. They might survive, but I don't want them to be tough. want them to speaker-1: Yeah. You don't want them to have to survive. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: I don't want them to have to be tough. ⁓ she was fine though. She wants to be a basketball player, a professional player. She's going to be John six foot. She's going to be tall. No doubt about it. speaker-1: Is she telling me tall. ⁓ six. ⁓ okay. Yeah. Yeah. But I think with the Panorama team, they probably because they were very much investigating the profession from the clients viewpoint, weren't they? So they probably hadn't really got under the skin of actually what it's like for the people working in the veterinary sector, which is why when you when you came out with that, they were a bit thrown by it. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. So what are you going to do? This is the fun bit for me. Tell me what you're doing. Cause Sarah, you said you were going to single-handedly change the vet industry. Yeah. And I'm here for it. What we're to do? I'm going to help you. So it's a, it's a thing now. speaker-1: Excellent. So right now at the moment what I'm focusing on is supporting individuals who have lost their self-trust and lost their passion for clinical practice. And we do that through a kind of explain what's going on with their neuroscience and with their psychology so they understand what they're experiencing from a science perspective because then it stops them from feeling so weak. broken and pathetic and like they're not cut out for being in clinical practice. so once there's that reassurance, then we bring in, okay, so this is the way that we we basically I basically help them rewire their brains because their brains and I say their brains, you know, this was what I was experiencing as well. Their brains have got to a place where they're very reactive. There there's a lot of Lot of time spent in that sympathetic fight or flight state, very negative self-talk, only able to see the negatives, not able to see the positives, and by targeted exercises and practices with a lot of repetition, which basically prompts neuroplasticity, yeah, in order to wire in more positive, more encouraging, more supportive ways of thinking and talking to themselves. being able to recognise and see the positives that are going on around them. And it has a real impact. Like I was talking to somebody who'd just finished the programme earlier this week and she was saying, I don't get stressed in consults anymore. You know, if if if a client is throwing something at me, I'm able to now detach from it and I'm able to now think confidently about what I'm doing rather than just going into this negative spiral of doubting myself. Yeah. so that's what I'm doing first of all, focusing on the individuals to rebuild that self-trust and rebuild that confidence and that passion for working in practice. After that, my next step is going to be moving on to working with leaders and managers because they're humans. Yep. We sometimes forget that, but they are humans. And so they experience a lot of the same challenges, the same self-doubts and the same ⁓ reactivity of snapping at people, which is coming from a place of because we're in fight and flight, you know, rather than it being because they're nasty people. so I'm I'm then going to adapt the course to help them whilst also bringing in the leadership and the the management stuff that I've learned in my consulting work. And also because I'm ⁓ an accreditor for the BBA's Great Veterinary Workplaces accreditation scheme. So I've got that background as to kind of What the BBA is saying needs to be in a what they're expecting from leaders and managers. ⁓ but then the final piece of the puzzle is what I was doing for 10 years outside the veterinary world was working with massive organizations and taking them through transformational changes, taking them through culture change. So getting their organization to work differently in a more kind of purposeful, like We want to work in this way, therefore we're gonna move the organization to work in this way rather than it just kind of evolving over time, which is I think what a lot of organizations do. Do speaker-0: organizations want to change. speaker-1: Well, this is why that's on the back burner. Yeah. and I kind of need what I feel like I need to do is build my credibility, build my brand, build people's trust in me understanding what I'm doing. Yeah. And then hopefully I'll be able to get to the point where I can influence the organizations kind of from the top and get it to trickle down. because I was working with organizations like four and a half thousand people across thirty countries. I'm used to working with big complex beasts and I have the veterinary knowledge and I have the understanding of what it feels like for the people in the teams. Yeah. So I feel like I've got all the pieces of the puzzle and can have a real impact. But like you say, they're not I don't feel like the the big organizations are yet at the point where they recognize there is something that needs to change. So I need to keep chipping away at them. speaker-0: But we have the evidence, have the rate of people leaving the profession. We have their recruitment costs. That's almost where you're going to have to hit them, isn't it? You're going to have to show them financial gain. speaker-1: Mm. But that's not new. Yeah. speaker-0: But if you can reduce... speaker-1: Loss? Yeah. Improved retention. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. It's going to save them a lot of money. I feel like they're okay about that more. speaker-1: Yeah. I This is what I don't understand though, because that has been a challenge for a number of years now. speaker-0: ⁓ ever since I can remember. speaker-1: So why isn't there more of a or may I think part of the challenge might be that they do think they're focusing they do think they're tackling it. They do think they're working on it. speaker-0: they send pizza at lunchtime. That will fix it. speaker-1: But there's there's speaker-0: Snow. speaker-1: Just in case ⁓ that got picked up on the microphone, that funny noise was my puppy at my feet snoring. Not anything else. Georgia She is, isn't she? ⁓ camera. No. speaker-0: She's flat out. She didn't want to be on camera. She hasn't done her hair. speaker-1: I've lost my train of thought now. Where was I? speaker-0: I mean, I was criticizing, you were being very polite. I was criticizing the industries that are controlling veterinary that are not interested in the change. speaker-1: The thing is, is I think that they I don't I don't think there is anybody sat in the corporates thinking saying well we don't care about the people on the ground. Like they're disposable to us, they should be able to work harder, you know. There there isn't. I genuinely think the corporates want people to be happy, healthy, enjoy coming to work. I just think that. they don't quite know how to make that happen. And they're trying. But they think they're missing the mark. Yes. But I think they think they do. speaker-0: What I've seen is they've come in and they have given things that we do need that as independent practices, we struggle better maternity, health insurance, gym memberships, all things like that. ⁓ That's what they're doing. And the pizza, it was a bitchy comment, but it is. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: They send you some food when you've worked overtime. Could just pay you, but they send you a pizza, those kinds of things. And they're putting incentives in, one coffee a week, that kind of thing. But it's not taking away the stress, it? speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. But let's be clear, it's not just a corporate independent thing. There are independents out there that are not great places to be working and people are really struggling and people are under a lot of stress. potentially. Yeah. you know, there I know there's a there's a lady who I know who used to be a vir she's now a business consultant. She's working she works with practices in order to help them speaker-0: unless. speaker-1: She works she supports them on various different things. But she's she's highlighted to me that there are it's not unheard of in some independent practices for people to not have employment contracts. Because they they they've never had them. And they and they think they think that we don't need an employment contract because Because because you know, we like we trust each other, so we don't need it. And so, you know, we just kind of go with what people need and but, you know, therefore neither side has protection. There's lack of continuity between team members. But that still happens. So speaker-0: ⁓ and me just fell off the chair. speaker-1: It's not black and white that independent is good, corporate is bad. Equally there are some corporates where the teams are phenomenally happy and have really positive well being. speaker-0: I've heard from, since I've been more vocal about the vet industry, I've heard a lot of people coming to me that are working in corporates and are very happy. And they've said to me, I worked for an independent and I didn't like it and I wasn't supported and whatever various reasons. Now I'm in a corporate, I feel better. Is there hope? speaker-1: There's hope. There has to be hope. There has to be hope. There is hope because the challenges, all of the challenges are within the control of humans. Yeah. Humans can learn, can change, can do things differently. Therefore, there is no fundamental reason why things can't be different, why veterinary medicine can't be the dream career that we all expected it to be. Yeah. So yeah, definitely hope. speaker-0: So how can people reach out to you? speaker-1: ⁓ so I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram, ⁓ my website is positivityinpractice dot com. You can get me through there. speaker-0: people can go to their employees and say please hire Sarah. speaker-1: They can, yeah, very happy to do that. ⁓ I do work directly with some practices who have asked to have coaching for their teams. Yeah. ⁓ or they can come to me individually and we can we can support them on that level. But the ideal thing would be the corporates, senior people in the corporates, them coming and getting some help with the with their culture doing transformational change work because top down, that will have the biggest impact. speaker-0: Amazing. We always seem to do bottom up and then he's come top down. speaker-1: We c it bottom up is is the easiest kind of access route. And also it it is necessary as well because top down takes a takes a long time. Like with a big culture change programme for an organization, you're looking at multiple years of getting the change actually embedded. speaker-0: huge level of patience. speaker-1: Exactly. And people who are in practices, they need to feel less stressed and more in control and more self-confident now. So I think it needs to be both. and also let's not forget that the challenges that people experience in practice aren't entirely because of the organizations they work in. You know, I came out of vet school with these confidence challenges. Yeah. So you could argue if I'd gone into a different practice, maybe my confidence would have been built through being in that practice. But equally having the support to work on my own kind of mindset and confidence personally, that would have been hugely helpful as well. So it's not a one or the other. I think I think we need both. Yeah. speaker-0: amazing. Thank you so much for your time. speaker-1: Thank you, thank you for having me. This is a fun way to spend a morning. speaker-0: to tell you that I'm super proud of you. And I'm so happy that we have someone like you leading this change. ⁓ speaker-1: ⁓ bless you. thank you. Well I have to say that in you I think because we've both been in London our entire careers, I've over the years I've kind of ⁓ been aware as to what you've been up to and that sort of thing. And when I was in practice I did used to think like like 'cause you were doing your orthopedic stuff. Yeah. Like pretty pretty new, pretty fresh out of vet school. speaker-0: two years after. speaker-1: And I I was aware you were doing all of this and I was like, Vanessa's killing it. Absolutely, absolutely nailing it. And it's just been so heartwarming to see you just go from yeah, you have had your challenges along the way, but you've overcome them and you've got through them and you've continued to build your skill set, build your business, be an advocate for the profession, be a voice of energy and positivity and Yeah, I'm th speaker-0: Thank I would like to set up the next generation for it and give them a path. speaker-1: Yeah. As long as they're not your children. speaker-0: Not my children. Amazing. speaker-1: Thanks, Nessa. We're up.