Latest / UK Column Radio / Weekly UKC Banter: Episode 17

Transcript

Weekly UKC Banter: Episode 17 · UK Column Radio

0:35
None. It's been a while, Charles.
0:41
Mike, I was away in China. Charles, before that, you were
0:45
away. And here we are, finally
0:48
together. After what feels like months.
0:54
Finally we got back. Yeah, it is, isn't it?
0:57
Yeah. I still sound.
0:58
Yeah, I still sound a bit sick. So I'm going to talk as little
1:01
as possible. Yeah, we should probably make it
1:02
clear that's not why you've been away.
1:04
It hasn't been hasn't been an illness that's kept you from the
1:07
airwaves. But I think that chatting about
1:12
the trip to China is a is a very good sort of undercurrent
1:16
because Mike, you and I were chatting a little bit about how
1:19
people perceive not just China, I suppose, but you know,
1:25
countries that tend to get targeted by sort of Western sort
1:29
of Intel interests. MI 6 has had a very big interest
1:32
in in in creating a false narrative, particularly about
1:38
the Xinjiang province. And I'm trying to think where to
1:41
start. But basically my starting point
1:45
is the following. It doesn't matter that that
1:47
you've been to China, Mike. It doesn't matter that I've been
1:49
to China because I still have conversations with people saying
1:52
to me, it doesn't. It doesn't matter.
1:55
They just made you see what what they wanted you to see.
1:58
Yeah. What?
2:00
Right. Well, that's, that's just I'll
2:03
just start with my usual caveat and that was that I went there
2:08
as a tourist. So I'm sure I only saw certain
2:11
things Germ right. So now I'm going to say,
2:15
however, that I did speak to quite a lot of people that were
2:20
that are obviously local to the places that I was at.
2:22
I, I absolutely went out of my way to do that.
2:27
And OK, the cynics might say, well, these guys aren't going to
2:31
speak out because they're scared of their government or whatever
2:33
it is. Perhaps maybe we see a bit of
2:36
that in this country as well. And so maybe we shouldn't be so
2:39
smug about about any of that. I'm going to say that that I
2:44
think there was only one instance where I was really saw
2:50
something which was different, shall we say, to to the way that
2:54
that the average British person or American might behave in the
2:59
presence of the authorities. And that was that that at the
3:05
Shaolin Temple there was AI assume a police helicopter came
3:10
over the top. And I think it was only the
3:13
Western tourists and there were very few of us there that that
3:16
looked up everybody else looked down.
3:18
Now that that might give an indication about people's views
3:22
of of the authorities and so on. But that's on one side of the
3:26
discussion. On the other side of the
3:27
discussion is that everybody was very comfortable to be out and
3:33
about at any time of the day or night.
3:35
There was no St crime. It was absolutely a, a wonderful
3:40
environment to be in and and everybody was immensely friendly
3:46
and, and welcoming as well. So, so, you know, take that,
3:50
take that as it is. It's it, that is my impression
3:53
of the place you, on the other hand, were in, you know, really
3:58
the the Wilds is where you were in Xinjiang.
4:00
And my point about Xinjiang is, and again, having not been
4:03
there, but, but realising what what that situation has been, it
4:12
it does. I do find it ironic that the
4:15
average British person is prepared to accept the narrative
4:20
of the British government about Xinjiang, about the oppression
4:23
of Uyghur Muslims at the same time that they're all from the
4:29
same kind of people that they're all marching with Tommy Robinson
4:31
against the Muslim community in the United Kingdom.
4:34
I find this really ironic to say the least, because, you know,
4:39
the fact of the matter is that Xinjiang has been on the
4:45
receiving end of the same kind of tack.
4:47
Ferry thought that certain parts of the Middle East have been,
4:51
that certain mosques in the United Kingdom have been.
4:55
And this has been a, a very manipulative situation by
4:59
Western powers, by MI 6 and so on and CIA and so on.
5:03
Because because obviously there is the potential to stoke
5:07
contention on the border with neighbouring countries.
5:11
And, and this is, this is typical Western divide and
5:14
conquer tactics. So, so China has reacted to an
5:21
insurgency effectively in that part of the world and they've
5:26
reacted in a particular way. And they would argue that that
5:29
has been about giving people that might be in susceptible to
5:36
radicalization, give them the opportunity to to be part of
5:39
society and the opportunity to, to learn skills and to, to get
5:42
jobs and these kinds of things and actually be productive
5:45
members of society rather than getting involved with
5:48
radicalization and, and insurgency and so on.
5:51
The West portrays that as being concentration camps and re
5:55
education and all this kind of stuff.
5:57
And so, you know, you take your, you take your poison as well.
6:01
You decide which of those two narratives you're going to
6:03
accept. But, but I personally accept
6:06
that I'm more likely to accept the Chinese narrative on this
6:09
because the people that have been radicalised in that region,
6:14
many of them have then turned up, for example, in Syria to
6:18
fight on the side of the of the insurgents there that that
6:22
Britain and the United States has backed so hard since 2011,
6:26
right. So, so you can start to see
6:29
that, that, that there are, there are common features
6:32
between what was going on in Xinjiang and remember the, the,
6:37
the, the radicalised Uyghurs managed to pull off a, a, an act
6:44
of what the Chinese certainly would call terrorism in
6:48
Tiananmen Square. So, so you know, it wasn't that
6:50
this was just being restricted to the Xinjiang province
6:54
province itself. This is something that, that
6:56
they managed to, to spread across China.
6:59
So inevitably the Chinese authorities reacted to that, but
7:05
the people that complain about that then complain that the
7:08
British authorities aren't reacting here.
7:10
So you know which which way do you want it?
7:13
But that's the thing, Mike, people don't quite understand
7:17
historical context. I mean, what you just did now is
7:21
what you would expect the average person to at least know,
7:26
but they don't take the time just to figure out why.
7:30
You know, some of these things have been happening.
7:32
I think it was 2018 where there was an MI 6 backed insurgency in
7:36
the province of Xinjiang. Now listen, I've I've now
7:39
travelled Xinjiang fairly extensively.
7:42
I think I visited I think 7 cities right against the border.
7:46
I think Kashgar is one of the closest cities to, to the
7:51
Pakistan or Afghanistan border. And only when you there, when
7:57
you see the military and when you see how different the
8:02
cultures are and you realise that there's a long history here
8:08
of, of insurgency, of instability, only then do you
8:13
start understanding why the Chinese government is trying to
8:18
protect its sovereignty. And for the last few years, all
8:22
we've been hearing from people, unquote, unquote outsiders.
8:26
We've got to fight for sovereignty.
8:27
Well, this is precisely what the Chinese government has been
8:29
doing. Yeah, Look, I, I, I understand
8:36
that from you basically because I, I have no familiarity with
8:40
the region at all that, that it is quite a militarised place to
8:45
be. I of course grew up in a
8:47
militarised place. So, so, you know, it was normal
8:52
for for me to be mixing with people in black uniforms or in
8:57
green uniforms with machine guns.
8:58
This was just, this was just normal.
9:01
And so maybe, maybe it's had a bigger impact on, on use than it
9:06
might have had on, on me if, if I'd been there.
9:08
But the, you know, I think again, people, I mean, you're
9:17
right, people are not, well, let's let's deal with the issue
9:21
of people understanding the historical context.
9:24
Of course, the vast majority of people are only receiving any
9:28
information about this, any of these regions from the BBC or
9:33
other mainstream media. And most people aren't
9:36
interested enough to actually try to find out for themselves.
9:41
So, so that's part of the problem.
9:43
But but it's, it's for me, the, the real thing that I find
9:46
difficult about the whole situation is that is it whenever
9:50
there's a sort of a predisposition against a
9:54
pertinent particular ethnic group or national nationality or
9:58
whatever, there's a willingness to accept government narratives
10:03
without, without criticism or without any kind of scepticism.
10:09
And yet on so many other narratives, when it suits
10:11
people, they are completely sceptical.
10:13
And I think, I think this is this is the real thing that that
10:17
needs to be addressed amongst Westerners.
10:20
And the fact that Westerners don't ever assume or consider
10:26
that that anybody in the East or in the Middle East or in South
10:29
America or in Africa may have a completely different perspective
10:33
on the world than they do. And so they're always looking at
10:36
these three things through a Western lens.
10:39
And that, that, I think is really problematic and in fact
10:42
even a little bit arrogant perhaps.
10:46
Charles, I know that you've not been to China, but I mean, the
10:49
principle is the same, right? Like if you go to different
10:54
countries, people like to say things like, well, you should go
10:59
there. And then you say, OK, fine, I'm
11:00
going to do that. I'm going to go there.
11:02
Then you go there and they say no, no, no.
11:03
But you can't go there as a tourist.
11:05
It's not long enough. You've got to live there for one
11:06
year. OK, well, I can't live there for
11:08
one year. So the best I can do is talk to
11:10
somebody who lives there. No, but you can't talk to
11:11
somebody who lives there because because they're scared of the
11:14
government. And So what happens is you, you
11:16
have this perpetual loop of never actually doing anything
11:22
other than kicking the can down the road and and basically
11:25
maintaining the status quo. Well, if we just put China to
11:31
one side for a second, I would I would suggest that the majority
11:34
of people who live in the United Kingdom have absolutely no idea
11:37
what's going on in the United Kingdom.
11:39
So it can't really be such a great surprise that there's a
11:42
little bit of discrepancy as to what exactly is always been
11:44
going on in China. And let's not forget, as you've
11:46
pointed out that China is absolutely vast.
11:48
And so to imagine that you could rub up along alongside one
11:53
person in China and they would give you chapter and verse and
11:56
on what's really happening is frankly ludicrous history.
12:00
Again, there are multiple versions of absolutely every
12:05
single event, action and movement in history.
12:07
So how do we really draw much of A conclusion from that?
12:11
I don't mean to just cast doubt on on absolutely everything.
12:17
I mean, in fact, I have been to China, but but Benny very
12:20
briefly and only to Beijing. And I wouldn't at all imagine
12:25
that that would be a place that I would get to know over a
12:28
period of time. I think the other thing the the
12:29
words that come come to mind were written in fact about
12:33
Africa, but by Isaac Denison writing is Karen Blixen in Out
12:38
of Africa. OK.
12:38
She wrote it quite a lot, quite a lot of years after the event.
12:42
But I read it at a time when I was working in the very country
12:47
that she had been writing about, in fact, at exactly the place
12:50
where she was living. And she made a very interesting
12:52
remark about how as a OK, she was making the distinction
12:56
between Europeans and Africans. Nothing to do with the, the, you
13:01
know, there's no sort of racial connotation here.
13:04
But, but quite simply, people who inhabited a particular area
13:09
and did things in a particular way would never, ever yield the
13:13
absolute truth of everything to, in this instance, the European.
13:18
So and I, and I absolutely identified with this.
13:21
I remember I I worked in a headquarters where I was the
13:26
only non African and we all worked very well together and
13:33
stuff happened or didn't happen. And often I could never ever get
13:39
to the bottom of why something had happened or had not
13:43
happened. And there was, when I say the
13:45
truth, I don't mean there was any dishonesty.
13:47
I mean that there was a, there's a sort of shielding mechanism
13:51
and whether it's intentional, whether it's cultural, whatever
13:54
it is to come into somewhere, somewhere else in the world that
13:59
you're not familiar with that does have, you know, let's face
14:02
it, geography alone, I think does account for quite
14:06
substantial changes. I'm, I'm not really able to back
14:10
this up with anything other than anecdotal evidence, but I mean,
14:13
generally speaking, as you progress further away from a
14:16
place, the culture becomes more different roughly.
14:19
So I mean, bearing in mind China is quite far from the United
14:21
Kingdom, It's, it's an easy, you know, it's an easy one to use as
14:25
an example of, gosh, well, how different and how different
14:28
because. And I think really the main
14:31
point that that comes out of this is not really so much
14:34
whether whether you have been to China, whether you haven't,
14:36
whether you've been there as a tourist, whether you've been
14:38
there as you know, to work or to really explore.
14:40
Whatever it is, the fact of it is that it is used by the media,
14:46
by the politicians, by the security services, intelligence
14:50
agencies, all the rest of it as a tool with which to either
14:57
suggest this is good or this is bad or we don't want to do that
15:01
or we do want to do this. And it just, you know, exactly
15:04
like Mike says it is. It is funny the the terrific
15:08
inconsistencies that that that does bring in.
15:10
I mean, most notably the, the sort of Muslims are bad, except
15:15
when they're good contradiction. And and also this is now, you
15:23
know, China in some quarters is being presented as the well, we
15:29
don't want to do that with digital ID because look what's
15:32
happening in China without actually citing any evidence of
15:36
what is happening in China. So I again, I think we need to
15:41
be extremely careful of being presented with anywhere as being
15:46
either good or bad in, you know, and, and I find that as a, as a
15:50
Brit, you know, I mean, how ridiculous to, to on, let's say
15:53
digital ID. Oh, well, look, Estonia has done
15:57
it, made a real successful, Yeah, but fine, we're not
15:59
Estonian. And why do we need to or want to
16:02
be like Estonia? Can't we just be like ourselves
16:06
and decide and going back to the point about sovereignty, why
16:08
don't we decide what we want to do?
16:10
And we can still, we can look at other places, of course, but,
16:14
but to suggest that we should do it because somebody else's, or
16:18
in China's case, we shouldn't do it because China's doing it,
16:23
That's the, I think that's the, that's the trap.
16:26
And, and so, you know, the more, the more confusion and
16:34
contradiction that exists surrounding China in a way, the
16:38
better because it, it, it plays into the hands of those who are
16:41
trying to manipulate the, the, the stories about the country to
16:45
their advantage and, and critically to our disadvantage.
16:49
Yeah. But I mean, that's the point
16:51
though. It's, it's, it's about thinking
16:55
critically about all of these countries, particularly
16:59
countries that get targeted constantly like China, Russia,
17:03
Iran. I mean, they they are a list of
17:06
countries that that we could name that that are most likely
17:10
not what we think they are. And, and something as simple as
17:14
visiting, as Mike pointed out, is not going to give you a full,
17:20
a full spectrum, you know, of, of analysis, but it's going to
17:24
give you a keyhole and it's going to give you a keyhole that
17:27
you previously didn't have. It's something like, yeah,
17:31
sorry, Mike. Sorry, Joe, I was just going to,
17:32
I was just going to say there, you know, that's true.
17:36
But but what it can do if you're, if you're honest, is it
17:40
can at least present people with some semblance of the truth or
17:46
getting closer to the truth. I mean, just one example, in
17:50
Poland, the Polish people are being told at the moment that
17:53
the sanctions on Russia are unbelievably successful, that
17:57
people are starving on the streets and so on.
18:00
And, and a particular Polish Blogger, can't remember his name
18:03
off the top of my head, said I'm, I'm not buying this at all.
18:08
And so he took himself off to Moscow and he had to fly through
18:13
Istanbul because there's no direct flight, of course,
18:15
because of sanctions. And he arrived in Moscow and he
18:19
discovered a city that is absolutely cosmopolitan, that
18:24
has a, an underground system that functions, it runs on time
18:27
that people that he thought, my goodness, what kind of reception
18:31
am I going to get as a Polish man in, in Moscow?
18:35
And he, he just was treated unbelievably welcome,
18:40
unbelievable welcome. He any help he needed, he got,
18:43
he even got people. I mean, people were even paying
18:47
for stuff for him, for, you know, for something to eat at
18:51
one point. But just because they were,
18:53
they, they didn't want him. You know, they wouldn't accept
18:56
his payment for, because they invited him to, to come for, for
18:59
a meal. It was, he had a fantastic time.
19:01
And he, he started presenting this information on Polish
19:05
alternative media and he got absolutely lambasted for it by
19:09
all kinds of people for, for pursuing a Russian narrative and
19:13
so on. And, and so, you know, this,
19:15
this is the type of thing we've got such, we're so propagandised
19:21
that, that when anybody that's in any way independent says to
19:25
themselves, right, let's go and find out exactly what's going
19:28
on. They go to the country, they go
19:29
to the place, they talk to the people, they experience what
19:32
it's like and they come back and they bring that story back.
19:35
Even then, when the evidence is presented, you, you know, large
19:39
numbers of, of people on social media are prepared to accept
19:43
what they're being shown and, and you know, the attacks begin
19:47
and whether. Those are.
19:48
That is though, Mike. I think because of course people
19:55
are are can't be very ideological and they they can
20:00
they can have sucked in narratives from from.
20:06
Well funded sources. And so whether whether it's a
20:13
whether it's the, the, the just Poland is as divided as as other
20:17
countries are. I'm quite sure it it is that's I
20:20
haven't been there in many, many years now.
20:22
And so I don't know exactly what the lie of the land is there.
20:27
I certainly remember back in well, early 2000s, two, 1005 or
20:31
whatever it was, whenever they were planning to, to get into
20:36
the European Union and there was the the whole discussion about
20:39
whether they should join or not. There was some division, but it
20:43
was very much majority pro EU. And I suspect that's still the
20:47
case to some degree. I mean, I think the farming
20:49
industry in particular has become a bit more anti but but I
20:52
think in general Polish people are still quite pro the West and
20:58
pro EU. And so I think that's probably
21:01
the main reason. When I was in China, I had a
21:08
similar conversation, but in reverse where I asked this one
21:13
Chinese, we are you going to visit South Africa at some
21:16
point? You know, we've got beautiful
21:17
safaris and wildlife and all that kind of thing.
21:20
And the response was, well, I don't know, it looks a bit
21:24
scary, you know, Will I be safe now?
21:26
That's the same thing. It's precisely the same thing in
21:30
reverse because yes, there is a crime problem here, but when you
21:37
land, are there people just shooting guns like it's a Wild
21:40
West? No, of course not.
21:43
And, and, and you can only figure that out if you just take
21:47
the time to come and visit. I've not been to the UK, so my
21:51
entire perception of the UK is based on everything that I've
21:56
ever been told and read. And I do intend to change that.
22:01
But I'm pretty certain that a lot of what I think is also
22:06
false and, and as you, you know, agreed earlier, Mike, just going
22:12
somewhere is certainly superior to not going somewhere.
22:15
It's a good it's a start and and more people should do it rather
22:18
than simply watching videos on YouTube.
22:24
I would absolutely encourage everybody to go as as many
22:26
places they as they can, because that's the only way to to to get
22:30
a feel for the place. But it, but, you know, it's
22:32
still, it still sort of comes back to the, to the issue of, of
22:37
is, is what you're seeing real? And, and I think that if, if all
22:41
we ever do is, is the sort of tourist centres that then
22:47
probably it's, it's probably a Hollywood or a, a Disney version
22:51
of, of, of reality. Certainly living there for a
22:55
little while will give a better impression, but.
22:57
So what you're saying? But I think, I think what you
23:00
did, I think what what I'm saying is I think what you did
23:02
was, was a cut above what most people get the opportunity to
23:07
do. Because because you were really,
23:09
you know, you were really in the, in the, the real
23:12
Backcountry, as it were. And, and, and getting to see a
23:15
bit of the real, certainly more of the real China than than, or
23:19
at least that part of China than most people get to see.
23:22
What was what you're saying is if I go to the UKI must go and
23:25
stay with Charles because he's more in the countryside and he's
23:28
outside of the of the of the city centre, no.
23:32
But Charles, Charles and or in fact anybody in the UK column is
23:37
probably going to give you a better, a more accurate
23:40
impression of the UK than than than if you go and get to the
23:44
average tour guide. Let's put that.
23:45
One. Yes, yes.
23:47
Yeah, could be a one way trip coming here, Jeremy, You never
23:49
know. Yeah, I mean, I think what I was
23:52
going to say, OK, it might sound a bit bit trite, but you know,
23:56
if you're pushed for time, just a tour of the world's airports
23:58
because I think they give you an incredible insight into how a
24:04
country projects compared with how it is.
24:07
And the say the three obvious examples would be the UK, the
24:12
United States and Hong Kong. OK, actually I extend that a
24:19
little bit. The the airport and its
24:20
surrounding area, the United Kingdom and the United States
24:23
project that they are countries where every little detail is
24:29
taken care of and progress is is core to, to everything.
24:33
We are very civilised. We are very technologically
24:37
sound, organised, welcoming, whatever.
24:40
Right. Well, see what you think after
24:44
spending 10 minutes inside Heathrow Airport.
24:46
I know I've talked about this before and, and, and people who
24:49
have travelled through the airport, my apologies because
24:52
you will be bored of hearing it again.
24:53
But Heathrow is held together with string.
24:55
It is, it is a dreadful, dreadful experience.
24:59
So I mean, Germ, I forewarn you for when you do come here, be,
25:02
be prepared. But but what I mean is, is that
25:06
it's absolutely contrary to the way in which this country
25:09
projects itself. But also it is very, very
25:13
concerned with what they describe as security, which is
25:16
in actual fact not anything to do with security.
25:20
Because if they really did legitimately think that people
25:22
were trying to anyway, we wouldn't get distracted by that.
25:26
But I mean, the, the sort of security architecture in
25:29
Heathrow Airport is, is extraordinary, but it is also
25:33
terribly inefficient. They are very, very impersonal.
25:35
The people that are working in those jobs, it's not a pleasant
25:38
experience. the United States, I would say it is the same, but
25:42
sort of on steroids. You know, you are, you are
25:45
treated or at least I haven't been there for a few years, but
25:48
but last time I went, I was delighted to find that I was
25:52
also treated like a terrorist again.
25:55
And you know, that persists and then you go outside the airport
25:58
and and the whole place is is a ruin.
26:01
I mean, going in. So this might exist elsewhere,
26:04
but certainly travelling in on the on the train into New York
26:09
is an extraordinary experience. The the the level of vagrancy
26:14
of, you know, looking out from the train when you're on the
26:17
sort of elevated bit down into the the residential areas there.
26:21
It is amazing. It is not in any way like the
26:24
image that America projects to the rest of the world going to
26:28
Hong Kong, where we are told that, you know, now under
26:32
Chinese control. It's a sort of autocratic
26:35
surveillance state. Everything works.
26:39
You are treated with a great deal of respect and humility.
26:42
You are welcomed. You whistle straight through the
26:45
airport. The doesn't matter what you
26:47
choose to do next in terms of on the journey, it all works.
26:51
So I think there is, you know, there, there is absolutely like,
26:57
I mean, like Mike says, I would, I would always encourage people
27:00
to go and and this is not an area.
27:02
Let's let's look at what UK column does, for example, it may
27:07
not be feasible for us as a small team to go to the place
27:09
that we are reporting about. But the point is we will go to
27:13
the source document for whatever, whatever it is that
27:16
people are talking about, that's in the ether, that's being
27:18
discussed, We will go and look at it.
27:20
We will not simply regurgitate what other people have told us.
27:24
And I think that should what you know, one should apply that to
27:26
absolutely everything in life. I mean, why would you, if
27:28
somebody tells you such and such a bicycle is great, Well, why
27:32
would you accept that you surely you would want to go and try it
27:35
out for yourself. And I think other parts of the
27:37
world are no different. But I mean, you know, I just go
27:39
back to what I was saying earlier, which is that there is,
27:42
you know, there's an obvious way in which narratives about other
27:46
countries can yield particular effects on the people that are
27:51
being told that. But no, that I mean, the, the,
27:54
the story about, you know, the chap going to Moscow and
27:58
reporting on it and not being believed that that's in effect,
28:02
that's a daily experience probably for anyone who's
28:05
listening to this particular podcast.
28:08
This is what happens when you try to talk to people about
28:11
things that are not being reinforced by the mainstream
28:15
paradigm. That's the reaction you get.
28:17
You know, even if you've actually been there and you've
28:19
actually done it on AI, don't think that can be right because
28:22
that's not what it says in the Telegraph or on the on the BBC.
28:26
So I don't think I'm going to believe you.
28:28
I mean, it is. It is perfectly astonishing.
28:30
But I think this is psychology that fascinates me, an
28:34
underlying psychology. And that is, and I think you
28:38
kind of alluded to it earlier, Mike, is some, some talking
28:43
points or ideas people are susceptible to rethinking, to
28:48
challenging, you know, themselves to hold up a mirror
28:51
and others are just completely impossible.
28:56
So I've noticed over the last few years, people have generally
29:01
been actually a very open to the idea of discussing vaccination,
29:06
right? And whether or not growing up
29:09
thinking that vaccines were great, whether or not they were
29:13
great. And you know, and so people are
29:15
I've, I've had a number of conversations over the last few
29:18
years about vaccines. Then you bring a talking point
29:22
like China, since I was just there, or perhaps the Muslims or
29:27
whatever it might be. And suddenly there's a, there's
29:30
a different kind of psychology that, that, that gets played
29:34
out. And I don't really know what I'm
29:38
asking. I think what I'm, what I'm
29:39
getting at is, is, is why perhaps some of these talking
29:44
points seem to get this, this brick wall around them and
29:47
others, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're,
29:51
they're more susceptible to being, you know, to being broken
29:53
down and, and, and rethinking. It's just so strange to me how
29:57
people get so caught up in particular talking points that
30:02
it becomes impossible to to to to crack that nut.
30:06
I'm going to say none of us is, is immune from this.
30:10
I'm I'm not, you know, there are things, there are things that
30:14
that people will say that people have said to me in the past
30:17
where where it absolutely puts a brick wall up.
30:20
I and I feel it going up and it and that's that actually for me,
30:24
that raises alarm bells because I'm saying that I'm then saying
30:27
to myself, why is that happened? And I want to actually then look
30:31
into that issue a bit more. I think the problem is that that
30:34
most people when the brick wall goes up, they're not interested
30:37
in trying to smash through it and see what's on the other
30:39
side. And I think that's where the
30:41
problem is. And I'm going to say actually
30:43
that that the truth, the so called truth movement or
30:46
whatever you want to call it, is absolutely as bad, if not worse
30:51
than just about every other section of society in this area.
30:55
There is, there is, there are some very, very strong
30:59
ideologies that run through the truth movement.
31:02
And I find it very difficult. And I've heard this, I've heard
31:05
this many, many Times Now where people since COVID have said we
31:10
are the future of humanity. And I'm thinking, no, you're not
31:14
sorry because you are even more, in some cases even more
31:20
ideologically driven than than than the worst of the, of what
31:26
they would perceive to be the other side of the argument.
31:29
And you know that. So there, there is no, there are
31:32
no solutions in on either path. If that's the way you've got to
31:36
think, if that's the way you think about it.
31:37
So as far as I'm concerned, if somebody says something to me or
31:43
I read something, or there's a piece of information comes in
31:46
front of me, which which causes that feeling of, of the brick
31:49
wall going up that that is, that is alarm bells.
31:53
And you've got to, you've got to start challenging your own
31:57
perceptions and your own precepts at that at that point.
32:00
And, and the result of that challenge may be that you, you
32:04
end up actually agreeing with your original position.
32:07
But the point is you've at least made the effort and you've,
32:10
you've, you've, you've dug into to, to the topic a little bit
32:14
more and, and hopefully made a bit more progress on on, but
32:18
you've got a bit. But we've always got to be
32:20
careful about our confirmation bias because it does exist.
32:23
It is there and we've got to absolutely be challenging it
32:26
every, every time. That's what Nick Hudson
32:30
constantly refers to as as complex systems, which I think
32:33
is very similar to things that you've said in the past about
32:37
trying not to buy into the idea of absolutes, because that's
32:40
the, that's the sort of false dichotomy that so many people
32:44
fall into. It's that, that fake binary,
32:46
it's either one or zero. That's it.
32:48
There's nothing in between. There's no nuance, there's no
32:51
complexity. But the moment you accept that
32:54
there is complexity, that there is nuance, perhaps your own
32:58
position becomes weaker. Yes, I think that's true.
33:04
I think the other thing I was going to add is that I think we
33:09
have been pushed very, very deliberately into failing to
33:15
examine things philosophically and considering them personally.
33:20
And that has been the the way in which all of these matters have
33:26
been. Therefore, weaponized vaccines
33:30
are a very, very good example. I think they are.
33:34
But you know, any debate about vaccines is, I think almost
33:41
immediately not at all objective.
33:44
It's it's not dealt with in an academic sense.
33:47
There is a there is a personal investment in it.
33:51
Either you believe that you know, you are doing the right
33:56
thing because you're protecting yourself and your family or
33:58
whatever and you're and you're and you're protecting those
34:01
around you. I mean, that was the sort of the
34:03
way in which the the COVID thing was sold, but that's actually
34:07
been in the in the sales package for a long time or you do it the
34:12
other way around where you again, for sort of similar
34:15
reasons, you think that you're protecting yourself by not doing
34:19
whatever it is. So the yeah, I mean, like I say,
34:25
I think think the the issue itself and, and what it is
34:29
actually about is taken away. But people have already so
34:34
conditioned and so prejudice to take A to take a personal view
34:38
of it rather than an objective one.
34:41
It it's absolutely hopeless. And that, and you know, that we
34:43
go back to this whole idea that that is entirely because it will
34:47
create sufficient division and antagonism for anybody to
34:52
consider that you've both been lied to.
34:55
And that should be the bit that drops out of any of these sorts
34:59
of discussions. I mean, you know, the fact that
35:01
if you do enter into a dialogue with somebody, it should really,
35:05
if you're dealing with the matter correctly, I think it
35:07
should, it should come out that there's a, there's a discrepancy
35:12
between what you each think, you know, and there's only really
35:16
one way that, that can have come about, which is that some lies
35:20
have been told. Because otherwise, how, how do
35:23
you, you know, how, how are you forming that opinion?
35:25
Why would you look what's being done with climate change?
35:28
Look what's being done with, you know, to children.
35:31
This is all, absolutely all being presented as something
35:37
that is a, a really, really deeply personal part of your
35:42
life. It is not abstract anymore.
35:45
And, and, and all of this should be, it should be abstract.
35:48
We should be able to talk about it without there being any sense
35:51
that there's a sort of personal investment in it.
35:53
But I think that's what's that's what's being done.
35:56
And look at, you know, look at where we are with other
36:00
nationalities and and migration. I mean, it's done with, it's
36:03
done with absolutely everything. And I think people have are
36:08
terribly susceptible to that. Of course they are because it is
36:10
personal. It's become personal.
36:13
But I think also it's about security.
36:19
I mean, my mother said to me the other day, you know, I can't
36:22
believe that this is going on. And my whole life I thought
36:26
something else, you know, what can we believe anymore?
36:29
And it's it's that that I do understand because when you ask
36:33
that question, well, what can we believe anymore?
36:36
It feels like the rug has been pulled out from under you and
36:38
you don't have any stability. And I think that.
36:43
What you've, you've absolutely hit the nail on the head.
36:45
This has, this is something which has been done to people,
36:48
right? And people that this is
36:50
something that is, is absolutely destabilising.
36:55
And of course, the way the reason it has been done is
36:59
because if people are looking at the world with what can I
37:03
possibly believe anymore, they either completely switch off
37:07
from everything. And we, we are absolutely seeing
37:09
that at the moment, people are switching off from everything.
37:12
They're not watching the news, they're not watching alternative
37:15
media, they're not watching anything.
37:17
And, and the point then is that they're completely disengaged
37:21
from events and therefore in no position to resist what's going
37:25
on so that they they can be put in a box over there because
37:28
they're safe. Now, as far as the government's
37:30
concerned, they've been demobilised or you've got the
37:35
people who are then totally susceptible to the lies because,
37:40
because they don't have anything to, to, to as a foundation for
37:44
what they, for what they understand.
37:46
And so they can, they will believe anything.
37:48
And then you've got the people who will only therefore or they
37:51
even become more radicalised towards the, the mainstream
37:56
official narrative. And because, because everything
38:00
else that's going on is, is a pack of Russian disinformation
38:03
or whatever, not, you know, category you want to put it in.
38:06
OK, so, So what that what that does very systematically is
38:12
remove people's ability to make a rational objective assessment
38:17
or analysis of what's going on around them and it takes away
38:21
any ability to resist. And this is, This is why it, it,
38:25
this absolutely has to be fought.
38:27
We have to fight it within ourselves.
38:28
We and we do that by, you know, being absolutely careful about
38:32
what conclusions we reach. That is not something which is
38:36
effort free. But unfortunately, that's not
38:38
that amount of effort is not something that most people are
38:41
prepared to to make. And you know, what's coming is
38:44
coming. Whether we you know, whether we
38:47
hide from it or or pretend that it isn't or not.
38:49
So you know it, it's the usual thing.
38:52
It's always better to the prevention is always better than
38:54
cure. And it's better to be trying to
38:56
get involved in resisting what's going on earlier and trying to
39:00
see if we can slow it down or stop it completely or diverted
39:03
in a different direction is much more likely outcome if if we win
39:06
this. Well, no, I mean, it's, it's a
39:15
very good question, but I was just going to bring back the the
39:18
point about things being binary. I think the, you know, in terms
39:21
of what what one may or may not believe.
39:27
It does then present the trap, which can of course create
39:32
further division, which is to to let's say it is on new sources
39:35
to draw a distinction and say, well, all of may everything that
39:40
mainstream puts out is corrupted and untrue and driven by some
39:46
sort of agenda. And conversely, that anything
39:50
that comes out in the alternative media is true.
39:53
I mean that that again is a gigantic mistake.
39:55
So I'm not, I'm not suggesting that that simplifies things, but
39:59
it but it is just a sort of it's one of those things that people
40:04
do need to be very aware of. But I think that that is a.
40:07
An absolutely identifiable sort of knee jerk reaction to when
40:11
the when the scales do fall from people's eyes and they and they
40:13
realise that on what you know, whether it's one particular
40:17
issue that then unlocks a number of other things, it doesn't
40:21
really matter. But the point is, once people
40:23
realise that there have been some absolutely extraordinary
40:27
lies or untruths told, it's easy to see how a reaction against
40:33
that is to think right. Well, in which case absolutely
40:35
everything I've been told is, is not true.
40:37
And that again, is, you know, is a problem.
40:40
So it's, it's really difficult to be, to, to continue to be
40:44
able to keep a, a sort of critical mind and to be able to
40:48
discern. But I think that the most
40:51
important thing with all of this is to keep talking to people.
40:54
And yet the, the, the great push, of course, is not for
40:59
people to talk to each other. It is instead for them to get
41:02
completely absorbed into in particular, mobile telephones
41:06
and, and, and for younger people.
41:09
I think I quoted this the other day.
41:10
I mean, OK, it's a statistic and notwithstanding what I just
41:15
said, it came from the BBC, but but it was about use of mobile
41:20
telephones in schools. And the premise for this was a
41:26
survey that had established how much time teenagers do use their
41:31
telephones. And even during the school term
41:36
time, the, the average figure in some schools was, was up to 40
41:41
hours a week. And that's, you know, a working
41:43
week spent on a mobile telephone.
41:46
I, I might sound old fashioned, but I really did wonder how they
41:49
found the time. I, I don't understand it, but
41:52
the point is, but OK, I'm not sure that it was necessary.
41:56
We've added up to 40 hours but but to think, you know, as a
41:58
teenager you're missing out on 40 hours worth of talking to
42:02
other people is quite astonishing and very damaging.
42:10
Yeah, but that's the problem. People don't want to talk.
42:16
I didn't. I couldn't hear you.
42:18
Oh, can you hear me now? I was just, I was just saying
42:21
that the problem with people don't want to talk.
42:25
It's easier to do scroll. And that's the thing actually,
42:28
that is part of the psychology is there.
42:34
There does seem to be a desire to doom scroll.
42:37
There does seem to be a desire to always look for the worst.
42:40
This is why I think nuance and complexity are beautiful things
42:45
because they do reduce the, the hysterical nature of what you
42:50
might think to be true. Digital idea is not a good
42:55
thing. Obviously not.
42:58
But you know, I was chatting to somebody, I think yesterday they
43:02
were going on about this is the end of the world.
43:04
No, can't have any more kids. And this is just, it's the end.
43:07
It's this is the end. And it's just too dramatic for
43:12
me to accept that. I think that it makes me want to
43:16
go hold on, hold on, hold on. Let's let's unpack this a little
43:20
bit. Is it as, is it as binary as
43:24
what you're making it out to be? And I think the truth always is,
43:29
no, it's not as binary. It's a little bit more nuanced.
43:32
Does that make sense? I think, I think that, OK,
43:42
let's, let's, I'm going to try not to be pessimistic here, but
43:46
it is difficult. I, I think, I actually think it
43:49
is, I think we're pretty close to, to the end of this, if you
43:54
want to call it a civilization. And, and the reason I say that
43:59
is because we have, if we just take the United Kingdom, let's
44:05
just say United Kingdom was sixty 70 million people,
44:08
whatever it is, none of those people has any kind of sense of
44:17
community or nationality really anymore.
44:22
There's no agreement about what being British is.
44:26
There's no agreement on what kind of country they want to
44:29
see. There's no agreement on whether
44:31
they want to have children or not.
44:33
There's there's no agreement on anything actually.
44:37
And so we are in a reality of collapse.
44:41
We've got collapsing infrastructure, we've got
44:43
collapsing services, we've got collapsing economy.
44:46
Everything is instead of collapse.
44:49
There's nobody qualified to reverse that or change that.
44:54
That is the direction that we're heading in and we're heading in
44:57
the direction of technocracy, as as you've pointed out.
45:03
And so as a result of all these things that which are physical
45:08
realities and the fact that as we've already discussed, the,
45:12
the fact that that it's impossible to without massive
45:16
effort get to any kind of sense of the truth, then I think that
45:21
people are becoming, as you've just expressed, absolutely
45:26
pessimistic about the future and they're making bad decisions.
45:32
And once we start seeing that kind of ever escalating
45:39
negativity and collapse, then there is no way back for, I
45:42
mean, just to just to take something really, really simple
45:45
there in any city in the UK at the moment, there is no side
45:50
street or even Main Street which is not full of potholes.
45:57
And this, this is a road infrastructure which has
46:00
developed over decades. And suddenly that entire Rd
46:06
network needs to be resurfaced. There is no possibility of that
46:12
being done because there's no possibility of unless we
46:15
completely restructure how we do things, there's no possibility
46:19
of there being ever the money to do that And to, to restore those
46:23
roads back to, to back to the state where they, where they
46:26
actually function properly. And, and so I, I don't see a, a,
46:34
a, a good way out of this that that is going to be pleasant for
46:43
people. I think that we're going to,
46:44
we're going to have a fairly unpleasant time of adjustment
46:50
until we, until we discover some new way forward or else we're
46:54
going to end up inevitably in this, in this really restrictive
47:00
technocracy that we all imagine. But the problem is we are
47:03
imagining it and therefore we're effectively making it reality.
47:05
We're, we're, we're doing the things which are, which are
47:10
bringing it on as it were. And, and so, you know, this
47:14
comes back to the conversation we've had actually several times
47:16
on this, on this the, in the programmes that we've recorded
47:20
so far, this, the future that we, that we bring about is, is
47:26
something that we have to first of all, imagine in our own
47:28
minds, we've got to absolutely resist the future that, that
47:32
other people are talking about. But, but the problem is that
47:36
there, that, that we aren't imagining a future that we want
47:40
to see. And therefore we're not taking
47:41
the actions that we, that we need to take in order to make
47:44
that a reality. And so, so yeah, I'm, I'm have
47:47
to admit I am slightly pessimistic about about where
47:51
this is going to end. I think, I think we absolutely
47:54
have the opportunity to, to, to make, to, to, to have a
47:58
different outcome. But that requires people to
48:00
actually, you know, as we said before, take a step back and
48:03
consider. Do something.
48:04
Well, no, it's not, it's, it's not do something.
48:07
It's, it begins with with ourselves and, and, and
48:11
imagining where we actually want to get to and considering what
48:14
actions we, we we need to take as individuals to get to that
48:17
point and, and actually taking them.
48:19
And that that's, you know, whether that's a lack of
48:23
leadership or whether that's just just a lack of, of moral
48:28
compass. I, I'm not sure.
48:30
I'd be interested to see what Charles reaction to that is what
48:32
I've just said. I think I can see exactly why
48:38
you, you, you would say what you say and, and in general terms,
48:44
of course, I can't disagree with you, but it's slightly going
48:48
back to the beginning with where we started in China and whatnot.
48:51
You know, if you, if you went to one place, you'd come away with
48:54
a different view from if you went to another and all that
48:58
sort of thing. I don't mean to be a pedant, but
49:03
I think it's an important point to make that certainly I don't
49:07
regard the United Kingdom or indeed, well, I mean, obviously
49:12
not the British ass because there are separate sort of
49:14
political entities involved. But but, but it's not one
49:19
homogeneous landscape or area. And I think that the way
49:30
societies work best is when the connections are the the, the
49:38
connections, the sort of change of connections, logistic chains,
49:40
all the rest of it are shorter and not longer.
49:43
And therefore society where I would say it has it has a better
49:50
chance of thriving when things are done on a smaller scale.
49:56
So let's say potholes, a really good example, they there could
50:04
be, you know, a national programme to deal with potholes
50:07
or could be done individually and locally.
50:10
And I'm just, I'll tell you why saying it like this because I
50:15
think I mentioned it the other day.
50:16
I went to the Groundswell Agricultural event back in July,
50:23
which is interesting actually, as a side note, because of
50:25
course Groundswell is a perfect example of people being
50:30
presented with something that sounds great.
50:35
Obviously, you know Angus McIntosh well and you know what
50:38
he's doing, and he describes what he's doing as being
50:40
regenerative. Regenerative therefore becomes a
50:43
buzzword and a marketing word and something with which you can
50:47
convince and then corrupt people.
50:49
And what's happened here is that there's now a big event that
50:53
describes itself as being for regenerative farming, which of
50:56
course should have virtually no inputs because it's all about
51:00
harnessing nature. And yet lo and behold, there are
51:04
umpteen machines, soil additives, programmes,
51:09
technological solutions that apparently are to the benefit of
51:13
regenerative farm. Basically the whole thing has
51:15
been captured. Very obviously going to happen.
51:18
It's happened with everything else.
51:19
Why would this be any different? And I'm not in any way
51:21
suggesting that people who are calling themselves regenerative
51:24
and are doing it properly are captured.
51:26
They're not. But the the point is that the
51:28
language has been stolen and that's a danger.
51:31
So that was one thing that just the other side of the motorway
51:35
is the what's described as the Garden City of Letchworth.
51:40
And this was this goes back to the early 1900s where there were
51:46
well, sort of series of new towns built from scratch.
51:50
I think something existed there already.
51:51
But but anyway, Letchworth today, I must say.
51:56
And yes, OK, going back to the China thing, I only spent a bit
52:00
of the day there. I haven't lived there all the
52:02
rest of it. But it has a feel to it that is
52:05
completely and utterly different, I would say from any
52:07
other town of its size. It has, it is beautifully
52:11
designed, has lovely sort of, you know, traditional red brick
52:16
arts and crafts buildings, really wide streets, a lot of
52:20
very well kept vegetation. To my memory, there are no
52:24
potholes there whatsoever. Now, I can't explain exactly why
52:28
this is the case, but the point is that it, it looks and feels
52:32
totally different. And walking around that place
52:35
and seeing the people that were there, you know, going about
52:40
their sort of daily business, it, it had a different feel to
52:42
it. And whatever it is that has made
52:46
that happen can easily happen in other places.
52:50
And OK, yes, I take the point that was made, which was about
52:54
finances and OK, that is not sort of an immediate thing to
53:00
be, to be solved. But the point I'm trying to make
53:04
is that it doesn't take much for a situation to be changed, even
53:10
at the, the lowest level. I mean, the one the, the, the
53:12
obvious 1 is, is food. And you know, if you're like, I
53:17
am surrounded by farmland and you know that the minute
53:21
everything is going off to supermarkets, to big food
53:24
corporations, therefore it's being sprayed to death.
53:27
And you know, any livestock is being injected with what all the
53:32
time. But, but to begin to change that
53:36
and to take some of that land out of that method of production
53:40
and just start with a small local market to do, to do the
53:45
direct sales farm shop, whatever it is that the, the, the effect
53:49
that that in fact has is really, really significant.
53:52
And it's those sorts of things, those sorts of changes that are
53:56
driven not by central government, not by local
53:59
government Even. So, you know, even if it came to
54:02
it potholes that there is, there is actually no reason that there
54:08
couldn't be some way in which a community could go about fixing
54:12
a road. I mean, it's not that flipping
54:13
difficult. It's not like the council
54:15
themselves are actually doing the work.
54:17
So all of these things are achievable.
54:19
I think we just need to look at them in in a different way and
54:22
and get out of this, you know, talking about sovereignty.
54:24
I mean, yeah, OK. But but at at what level?
54:28
At what? At what degree?
54:29
You know, why on earth would I be looking to Keir Starmer of
54:33
all people to make any sort of a positive difference or indeed to
54:36
affect any influence over my life?
54:39
He he, he's, he should be, to me a complete irrelevance.
54:43
And if it were not for the fact that working for UK column
54:47
involves reporting on the sorts of things that he is doing or
54:50
supposed to be doing, he would be a complete irrelevance.
54:51
I mean, he is. Let's face it, even Donald Trump
54:54
couldn't remember who he was. But.
54:57
But Charles, do you think, sorry, Charles, do you think
55:00
the, the, the time that you were talking about, do you think
55:03
that, that the, the size of the community counts here?
55:07
Yes, I do. Yeah, yeah, absolutely I do.
55:09
So, so I'm not, I'm not suggesting that there is a, a
55:12
sort of one size fits all And I, I have no idea what the
55:17
population of Lexworth is. It's not very big.
55:18
So yes, I, I, I do think there is a, a scale beyond which a lot
55:23
of this, it is problematic, but but not impossible.
55:26
I mean, if, if we consider in, in the United Kingdom, London or
55:30
Birmingham, OK, I'll just put the Rose tinted spectacles on.
55:33
But I mean that both of those places have been made to work in
55:36
terms of the transport, logistics, communications,
55:40
water, sewage, every, everything else there.
55:43
There was a point in time where, as far as I understand it,
55:45
everything really, really did work.
55:47
So whether it's just that they've got too big or there are
55:51
a host of other reasons, it's, it's, you know, that that's sort
55:54
of open to debate. I think it's because they've
55:56
become too authoritarian. I mean, you know, the number of
56:00
cases in cities that we hear of of and we do hear these stories
56:04
from time to time of people who've tried to, to take some
56:07
kind of local Community Action and make a, a piece piece of
56:10
waste ground look, look pleasant and turn it into a flower garden
56:14
or even a vegetable patch. And they end up in the court,
56:17
being brought into the courts by the, the local authority and so
56:20
on. I, I think that's, that's
56:22
absolutely part of the problem and needs to be, that type of
56:25
behaviour needs to be fought, absolutely.
56:27
But yes, I take your, I take your point it, it, but it does
56:30
worry me that, that so much of the population is, is based in
56:35
cities and that where there is first of all, there is no sense
56:39
of community at all. And, and so it becomes difficult
56:43
to, to organise on a community basis, but also just the, the,
56:47
the, the draconian hand of the, of the local authority and even
56:54
even at the, at the very local level in cities is, is also
56:58
problematic. So, so, you know, there's lots,
57:00
I absolutely take your point and there's lots that people could
57:03
do, but but for people to do those things, they've got to
57:06
start with with, you know, building community again, and
57:11
that's not easy these days. No, I, I totally agree.
57:14
But I think I and I think we are between, I think we have, you
57:20
know, it's been a sort of steady decline, but the post war period
57:23
has seen the collapse of almost every sort of meaningful and
57:26
positive and productive, you know, fraternisation,
57:30
organisation, community, whatever.
57:31
And, and I think although the results might not yet be sort of
57:38
visible or tangible, I think there are enough people out
57:40
there who have realised. And, and I think this is an
57:43
interesting one actually, because I think there are, you
57:45
know, it doesn't matter, for example, what you think about
57:47
climate change or vaccines, a pothole is still a pothole.
57:50
And no one wants to have to, you know, bump up and down in
57:54
potholes. And I think, I think it'll be
57:56
the I'm hoping it will be these sorts of things that that do
58:01
allow people to, you know, for, for minds to meet and for there
58:05
just to be a practical delivery rather than an ideological one
58:08
or practical, you know, drive for this rather than
58:12
ideological. But but yeah, there's a heck of
58:14
a lot of ground to be made up. I was just going to, I was just
58:16
going to bring in an anecdote because I know we're we're
58:19
nearly on the stops, but just thinking, you know, going back
58:24
to China, it just, it made me laugh so much.
58:28
For anyone who does think, you know, China is this rigidly
58:32
controlled country where there's, you know, people
58:35
absolutely gone dance to the government's tune.
58:37
They're surveilled and and this, that and the other and no one
58:40
sort of steps out of line even for a second.
58:43
The very first thing that I suppose quite a lot of people do
58:47
when they arrive, coming out of the airport, Beijing, hail a
58:50
taxi, drive down the sort of airport concourse and then out
58:55
into, as far as I recall, what should be I guess the equivalent
59:00
of a of a motorway in the Uki think it was it had three sort
59:03
of painted lanes. But immediately it was obvious
59:07
that in the direction we were trying to go, there were already
59:09
5 lanes of traffic because the what would be the sort of hard
59:12
shoulder and the central reservation people had squeezed
59:14
out round the thing. It was absolute gridlock.
59:17
So our taxi driver thought, OK, well, I don't think we'll do it
59:21
this way. And we just went through the gap
59:23
in the barrier into the oncoming traffic and we drove into
59:28
Beijing on the wrong side of the road with with four lanes of
59:31
traffic coming the other way. That I don't see people doing
59:35
that in the United Kingdom. I'm not advocating for it
59:37
either, but the point is, if people were controlled within an
59:42
inch of their lives, that would not and could not happen.
59:45
So just it made me laugh and it's silly and it's an anecdote,
59:48
but it is indicative. And I think those are the sorts
59:50
of things that we have to bear in mind.
59:52
How realistic is it that a society that behaves like that
59:54
is actually under the thumb to the degree to which Richard
59:57
Dearlove and so forth are are presenting it?
1:00:01
All right. I know that your schedule is
1:00:03
quite tight today, Mike, so let's come in for the landing.
1:00:07
Gentlemen, thank you so much. It's great to be back ready.
1:00:11
Really enjoyed chatting. Looking forward to catching up
1:00:13
with you next week.