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Transcript

Caught Cheating? Don’t Start With Marriage Counseling. Do This Instead. · Sex & Porn Addiction Recovery with Russell Beebe

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you got caught cheating and your marriage is in trouble, marriage counseling probably feels like the obvious next step, but for a lot of couples, it does more damage than healing.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Russell Beebe, I'm a licensed mental health counselor and certified sex addiction therapist, and I've worked with hundreds of men whose marriages were on the line because of cheating and compulsive sexual behavior.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to save your marriage, there's something else that has to happen before marriage counseling.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: And if you skip this, you can spend months trying to save a marriage while making it harder to repair.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Let me show you why that is and what to do instead if you really want to get things right.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to talk a little bit about what my story was with my marriage and when I got into recovery around cheating and sex addiction, because it's going to demonstrate what I'm really talking about here.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: So when I first got into recovery, um I was in a unique circumstance where I wasn't actually living with my wife.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I had gotten into treatment for substance use and I went to a treatment center, and then afterwards they sent me to a sober living program.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the whole time that I was at the treatment center for substance use, I wasn't sexually sober.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Essentially, I kept acting out in various ways.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And when I got to sober living, I was doing good with my substance use, but I wasn't doing good with my sex addiction.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the sex addiction actually triggered me to relapse on the substances twice.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so I remember going to the sober house, living there, doing well, but not sexually sober, relapsing on the sex addiction, then relapsing on the substances, going back to the sober house.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I did that two times.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: The second time that I went back, my family had been super upset about what had happened leading up to me going to treatment even before I went to sober living.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: When I got back to the sober living program for the second time, I was just completely wrecked.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know what to do.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I was trying to prioritize my own sexual sobriety.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I remember my wife at that point, she had had it at that point.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: She basically said, I don't want to talk to you until you get your you know what together.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so she said, just go to the sober house, work on your recovery.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what your problem is, but I can't be around you and I can't talk to you right now.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so there was this forced separation.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm not saying that that has to happen with every couple, but sometimes in treatment for sex addiction and infidelity, we do find it helpful to do what's called a therapeutic separation.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the couple, there's they stay together, they're not getting a divorce, but they physically separate so that each person can work on their recovery and then they can decide when is the best time that we start to work on the relationship.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't know it at the time, but that's essentially what we were doing.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I was living in a sober house.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Luckily, I had gotten around good recovery for the sex addiction, and I started to get sexually sober.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: So my wife and I were separated and I didn't want that.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: I my wife had to actually, things were so bad that my wife had to move in with my parents.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I had my youngest son, my who is now 18 years old.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: He was an infant at the time, and she just couldn't handle it because I was out acting out all the time, doing drugs and doing all these things.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: And she had to move in with my parents just to get help with the baby.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm living in the sober house.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what I wanted.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be home helping out with the baby and being in the in the lives of my family and supporting my wife, but I just couldn't stay sexually sober.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't stay sober from the substances long enough to actually be able to be around my family and for them to feel safe having me around.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I look back at that sort of as a blessing in disguise.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: On one hand, I was really upset.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was uncertain what was going to happen with my marriage.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: My wife didn't want to talk to me.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: My a lot of my family members didn't want to talk to me.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: And luckily, I was around other people in recovery.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, Russell, there's nothing you can do about this.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: All you can do right now is focus on your recovery, work on that, get better.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then to the extent that your family and your wife want to talk to you again, they will let you know when the timing of that is right.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not what I wanted.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to get back in their lives, make things right, do it right.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And to be honest with you, if I look back at that, that probably would have overwhelmed me to the point where it would have been difficult for me to stay sexually sober.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: So luckily I had good help from people telling me, just focus on your recovery one day at a time.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I did that.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: I lived in Derry, New Hampshire in a sober living program.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I did, it was very simple.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: I would get up in the morning, I worked in a diner as a dishwasher, I'd walk there, I'd work in the diner, I'd come home, I'd spend time with people in the house, was other men that were in recovery.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I just worked on my recovery.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: I went to meetings at nighttime.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I did some some 12-step work.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: I eventually did some counseling and things like that as well.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: And an amazing thing happened.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: It allowed me to really focus on my recovery.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then for the first time in my life, oh my God, I got I was a month sexually sober, and then I was two months sexually sober, and then I was three months sexually sober, and I was in this, still living in the sober house.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I would, and what happened was miraculous because I was not only prioritizing my sexual sobriety, I was working on my life issue, I was working on my inner reaction to life through the step work that I was doing, through the peer supports that I was doing, and I was gaining this deep self-awareness, and something happened that restless, irritable, and discontent that was inside of me, the thing that I would use, drugs over, the things that I would act out over, the real problem, what I've come to know as RID, restless, irritable, and discontent.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Also, I refer to it as the sober problem or the life problem because the behavior is just a symptom of a deeper issue.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: What happened is I started looking at all that stuff.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: I started processing, I started healing without the acting out and without the drug use.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: And an amazing thing happened.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: I started to feel comfortable in my own skin for the first time in my life.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: The underlying issue started to heal.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: The anxiety went away, the depression went away.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: I started to feel good.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: And nothing had changed in my outside life.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: My wife still didn't want to talk to me.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: My family still, you know, didn't want to be around me as much.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And but I was in and I'm living in this sober house with a bunch of younger guys that kind of annoyed me at times, right?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I just started to feel good inwardly for the first time in my life.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I, and I was just like, no matter what happens on the outside world world, no matter what happens with my marriage, no matter what happens with my family, I think I'm gonna be okay because I was living the way that I was living was so terrible.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt so bad.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: I would act out, I would use drugs, I would act out, and then I'd feel all this shame and guilt and promise myself I'm not gonna do it again.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'd get the mental obsession, and then I'd act out and I'd go through that cycle again.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just like when I was sober sexually, I felt terrible.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: When I was acting out, that helped me medicate that pain a little bit.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: But then afterwards I'd feel terrible again.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just this terrible cycle.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: So for the first time in my life, without using substances and sex to make myself feel better, I finally felt okay.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that that has continued through sexual sobriety over the years.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm now 17 years sexually sober and I feel that way.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: I wake up, I don't have this inner turmoil, this restless, irritable, and discontent, the thing that I would always draw me back to doing the behaviors that would help me numb out from that inner condition.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't have that anymore.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it was great.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm living in the sober house and I'm starting to feel good and I'm showing up every day.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm waking up in the morning.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: I used to have trouble getting out of bed in the morning because of depression.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have that anymore.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: I wake up when the alarm went off and I'd be able to get up and I'd go through my day and I'd stay sexually sober.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'd stay away from the substances, and I felt good inside for the first time in my life.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then what happened is over time, my wife started to see that I would talk to her every now and then.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, typically what I was doing was I was just checking in with my family so that they knew that I was still at the sober house and they knew that I was okay.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I would call every day and leave a message.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody wanted to talk to me, but I would just leave a message and say, I'm doing good, I'm doing the things that I'm supposed to be doing.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then over time, I started talking with my wife again.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: And luckily, my mom would bring my son up, who was a baby at the time.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: She'd bring him up once a week, which was really great.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: But my wife and I started talking again, and we weren't quite together.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And like there was a lot of talk about should we get a divorce, should we separate?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: She was really upset, obviously, with with betrayal trauma.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of questions there about things that I had done.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I would, you know, I would, when we did talk, this is you, this thing is about five or six months after I got sexually sober.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when we did talk, she would ask me questions.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: I would be as honest as I possibly could.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I, and it was really good.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we started talking.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And but the relationship was still kind of up in the air.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: And what happened with with us is we were, we had actually decided that it might be best to actually separate and and you know, get a divorce, basically.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: That I had just basically done too much damage to repair this.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, we were about ready to walk away from it.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then we both had this moment in a conversation where we were like, why don't we just go do some couples counseling and work on this and see if we can see if we can save this marriage?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: But here's the thing I was in a really good place in my recovery, and that was the reason that my wife was talking with me.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the reason why we started talking about the relationship.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: If I had been acting out and there would be no conversation, she would continue to be like, I don't want you in your in my life if that's what you're gonna be doing.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: But because my recovery was good, she started to see that.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And not just seeing that I wasn't acting out, but also seeing that I was a changed person.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: When I did talk to her, I was unselfish.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was interested in her.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: I would, you know, I was demonstrating the changes in my life, not just around the sexual behavior, but just as a person, as a husband, as a father.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so what that did is it created a lot of healing for her because the things that she was worried about, she started to intuitively believe, okay, maybe Russell can stay sexually sober, maybe he can be a changed person, maybe we can work this out.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: And she had done some of her own recovery as well, did some meetings and things like that, and you know, got some supports on her side.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: So she had an opportunity to work on it.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And part of the work that she did was to let go the results of what I was doing.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: So she realized no matter what happens with Russell, he may get sexually sober and stay that way and be a changed person, he may not, but I need to decide for myself what is it that I want in my life.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what she wanted was to be a mother and to take care of our kid, regardless of what happened to me.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a determination on her side to do well despite what was going on with me.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: So then it became the right time for us to do couples counseling.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: And we had an in of an interesting experience with that.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: We decided we were going to work on the relationship, we were gonna stay in the relationship, and we started going to couples counseling.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we only did maybe like three or four or five sessions.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: You would think we probably would need, you know, years and years of couples counseling, but there was just something about one me doing well in my recovery, her doing her recovery, and then us deciding to be in it, and then having the difficult conversations that we were having and my willingness to be honest with her and not gaslight her and not minimize and do all the stuff that I used to do.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: There was just something about us deciding to be in the relationship that all of a sudden the relationship got better and we decided to stay together.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that was, you know, at this point, seven, I think maybe like 16, 16 and a half years ago, and we're still together and we're doing great.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Our marriage is not perfect, but we're doing really great.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so we went to couples counseling.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: We sat down with the couples counselor and she was like, Well, what are you doing in your recovery?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I was doing well in my recovery.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And Kathy had a had a good take on her own recovery.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: And we were just, you know, basically saying, Well, we we want to stay together, we want to work on this relationship.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And like at that point, because I had done so much work on myself and she had done work on herself, and then also we had done a lot of conversations, like part of healing in a relationship from betrayal trauma is to have those conversations.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's the self-healing, it's the co-regulation.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's us not yelling at each other, not me blaming her, her blaming me, and all this stuff, but us coming together and having those tough conversations and me being 100% empathetic and remorseful for the things that I've done and demonstrating in my recovery that I can be a changed person.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so those conversations went over much easier.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so we started to self-heal in the relationship.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: But then we were like, I don't think, I don't know if we need this couple's counseling.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: We've continued to do that.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And now in my relationship and in my recovery, she's actually one of the most important people I utilize when I have something going on, like if something's bothering me, a fear or some stress or something like that.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: She's somebody that I feel safe talking to.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: She feels safe talking to me.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now, none of that would be possible if I wasn't sexually sober.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: So here's my whole point of this video, which is it's kind of like a three-legged stool.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard this before in recovery from betrayal trauma, some with sex addiction, infidelity, cheating, betrayal trauma.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the partner is is experiencing betrayal trauma, the addicted partner is experiencing sex addiction.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a three-legged stool.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: He has to work on his individual recovery, she needs to work on her individual recovery.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then at some point, when it makes sense, they work on the relationship together, which could be couples counseling, there's workshops and different things like that.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's like a three-legged stool.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel very strongly, based on my experience and based on what I see with my clients, is if if natural.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say somebody comes in, they've cheated, they have sex addiction, there's betrayal trauma there, the natural conclusion is if they're going to try to stay together, we need to get into couples counseling because it's a relationship issue.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's kind of a normal reaction.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes what people do is they do that first.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And what happens is there's the betrayal trauma there.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: He's not sexually sober, he's doing bad.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's betrayal trauma on the partner side, and then they come into the session and they just yell at each other for the whole time.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: He's blaming her, he's gaslighting all the crap that sex addicts do.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: She's experiencing betrayal trauma.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: She's checking his phone, she's doing all, and there's all this disarray in the relationship.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the couple's counselor doesn't really kind of know what to do with that.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so what we recommend in my program is like, look, if you guys want to do couples counseling, do it.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying don't do it.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: But what I do tell them is like sometimes it's good to wait a little bit to do that counseling to one, allow him to get into recovery, actually get sexually sober, get the supports that he needs.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is all stuff we do inside the program.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Start looking at himself, actually be able to be honest with himself.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like I struggled with being honest with myself.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't be honest with my wife because I couldn't even be honest with myself.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: I was lying about everything in my life.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: So allowing him to get sexually sober, to demonstrate that, to start to become a change person, to get honest with himself so they can even have the ability to be honest with her, to learn empathy.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: We do a lot of work with this, with the guys in my program, where we're teaching them how do you heal in the relationship?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And part of that is to like put yourself in her shoes.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: If she had done the same thing than you, how would you feel?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then from that empathy, then you can communicate to better in that way.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: My point here is that he has to have some solid degree of recovery.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then also betrayed partners experience PTSD.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: They basically, that's what it is, betrayal trauma is it's a trauma reaction.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really hard sometimes if she's experiencing a high degree of betrayal trauma and triggered all the time and he's not sexually sober and not doing the right thing, they're they're just kind of at each other all the time.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really important also for her to have a degree of recovery where some of the symptoms of the betrayal trauma have come down.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that that helps, you know, if you go see a trauma therapist or a betrayal trauma-informed therapist or coach, they can start teaching the partner some coping mechanisms so that they can kind of calm down when when they are triggered, uh, which is really terribly so PTSD symptoms.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so both sides need to stabilize a bit in their recovery, I believe, before they come together and start doing couples counseling so that they can sit in that room.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And here's the thing: what I find is in the program is we have a gentleman who's doing well in his recovery and a partner who's maybe doing well in her recovery as well, but they're still having trouble in the relationship.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, what's left over to do here?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: He's doing well, she's doing well, but when they come together, it's it's just like a firestorm.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so what what couples really start to think is like, oh, he starts thinking maybe we shouldn't be together, she starts thinking maybe we shouldn't be together.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the point, the real underlying issue with that is that they haven't practiced being in the relationship.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: He's got his recovery, she's got her recovery, but they haven't practiced and learned the relational techniques.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then that's the perfect time.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I say to the guys, like, hey, if you're still having trouble in the relationship, even though both of you are both kind of still are doing good, that's the time to do couples counseling.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I'm your individual therapist or your coach, I hear your side.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Her individual therapist or coach hears her side, the truth usually falls in the middle.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: So what a couples counselor do is it gets both parties in the same room.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then they can see that dynamic and they can work on the relationship and start teaching you skills to heal in the relationship.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I don't know how long that takes, but both parties will know.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have a good coach and good therapist, they'll be able to tell you like now's a good time to start the couples counseling.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: So when the relationship needs that healing, that's a good time for couples counseling.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I highly recommend if you do couples counseling, that time comes that you get somebody that's betrayal trauma informed, sex addiction, both sex addiction and betrayal trauma informed, just because it's just important to know the addiction.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes if you get the wrong couples counselor, if they're like a sex therapist, they might be like, oh, well, you guys should look at porn together and they'll start telling you things that are bad for the betrayal trauma and bad for the sex addiction.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: So make sure that that couples counselor or couples coach is uh sex addiction and betrayal trauma informed.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And hey, if all this is making sense to you and you're listening to this and you're a man with that's struggling with infidelity, cheating, and sex addiction, we do have a program, we bring you through.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's not traditional therapy in the traditional sense is a recovery coaching program, a 12-week program, we bring you in, bring you through a recovery curriculum.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: We teach you the skills, how to start the healing in the relationship.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: We start to heal the underlying issues that are going on, the thing that fuels the addiction and the supportive community of other men with groups and one-to-one coaching.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we just really wrap around you.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you're interested in talking to us about that because you're struggling with this, somewhere around this video is an opportunity to reach out to us, click a link, schedule a call with us.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see what's going on with you, see if it's a good fit.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: If it is, we'll talk about what it would look like working together.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: If it's not, we'll point you in the right direction.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: So check it out and we'll talk soon.