Latest / GowayPro Travel Tales / Expedition Cruising – What it is?

Transcript

Expedition Cruising – What it is? · GowayPro Travel Tales

• 0:00
  Hey there everyone, I'm Don, Professor Goaay and welcome to the Goaay Pro Travel Tale Podcast.
• 0:05
  Travel far and gravel often.
• 0:08
  uh
• 0:23
  talking about something that GoAE has been doing for many years through many of our partners and that's expedition cruising.
• 0:31
  Now I'll let our guest, Carl Kansata, explain because Carl is expert in this area of travel which is why he's here today.
• 0:40
  um But we have a lot of cruise agents out there which I'm sure you deal with and I'll explain why I say that to Carl when I give him the formal introduction but there is a
• 0:51
  definite difference between
• 0:53
  what most agents and people would consider cruising versus expedition cruising.
• 0:58
  So on that note, Karl Kahnstader.
• 0:59
  ah Now Karl was actually at Go Way, albeit for a short period of time.
• 1:03
  You mentioned in the elevator about eight years ago it was?
• 1:08
  Actually.
• 1:09
  was going to say it seemed more.
• 1:10
  it's more like 12 actually.
• 1:12
  that's what I thinking.
• 1:14
  Fair chunk of time ago, but Kyle moved on from us to quark expeditions or quark, depending on your pronunciation, which is polar expedition cruising.
• 1:26
  And then you move to silver seas, silver sea expeditions, which also does polar.
• 1:31
  Yes, addition to Galapagos and coastal Africa, the northwest coast of Australia.
• 1:38
  So the Kimberley coast, example, Papua New Guinea, anywhere water touches land.
• 1:44
  Okay, so you went from polar focus to world focus, right?
• 1:48
  it's fair, with Silver Sea.
• 1:50
  Silver Sea singular or Silver Sea's plural?
• 1:52
  No, Silver Sea.
• 1:54
  Singular.
• 1:55
  And then you moved from Silver Sea, Expeditions, to Signature, a large consortia based out of the US.
• 2:02
  Right.
• 2:02
  And I did ask Khalil his title and I forgot already because it's a big one.
• 2:05
  VP of Content.
• 2:07
  content strategy exploration.
• 2:11
  Basically, the role is to elevate the profile and raise awareness around exploration travel.
• 2:19
  So expedition crews, safari, and active adventure.
• 2:24
  And to sort of be a liaison between our partners, like Go Away, and our advisors, our members that are members of the network.
• 2:33
  Because sometimes they don't know what they don't know.
• 2:35
  And they may have heard of the preferred partner or they may not.
• 2:39
  And even if they have heard of the preferred partner, they may not know all of the things that that preferred partner has to offer.
• 2:46
  So I try to bridge that knowledge gap.
• 2:49
  So let's take some steps backwards because we have a lot of experienced agents out there, I'm sure, as well as lot of new agents.
• 2:55
  um So with your current role with Signature, who is Signature?
• 3:01
  Signature is a member-owned consortia based, as you said, out of the US, so in LA.
• 3:07
  uh It's member-owned, and that's what's unique, one of the things that's unique about it.
• 3:12
  So we have about 225 agencies.
• 3:15
  Every one of those agencies owns Signature.
• 3:18
  And there are today about 100 employees at Signature, and we are told what the network needs.
• 3:27
  So in terms of the marketing, the technology, because some of our member agencies are small, their mom and pop shops, they want to focus on selling travel, they want to focus
• 3:37
  on what they do well.
• 3:39
  And they may not be as adept at social media or uh marketing and creating a little uh e-flyer that they're going to mail out or email out to their database.
• 3:50
  So that's where we
• 3:52
  create that technology that makes things easier for them and do a lot of training as well.
• 3:58
  Okay, so that, I'm glad you mentioned the word training, because we met about a month ago about training between go away and signature in general.
• 4:05
  um And just to clarify, your role signature from your title though is you are training primarily, is that correct?
• 4:12
  Yes, and in a number of different ways.
• 4:15
  So it might be creating a training that lives on our training center, much like you do a lot of.
• 4:21
  it's streaming, it's accessible by our members whenever they want.
• 4:25
  It might be going into an agency or virtually and creating some training for them specifically for an aspect of exploration travel that I mentioned before, that they think
• 4:37
  their advisors could use help on.
• 4:39
  So if it's an agency that sells a lot of
• 4:42
  Thanks.
• 4:44
  Disney and Universal, for example, and that's what they focused on for long time.
• 4:48
  But they don't want to miss the boat.
• 4:49
  Pardon the pun on on expedition cruising.
• 4:52
  They realize that it's having a moment and a lot of people are talking about the polar regions and a lot of people are talking about Galapagos.
• 4:57
  So I'll go in and either do a one off or we'll put a series of trainings together, sometimes with partners as well.
• 5:06
  So, for example, I did a series last year of 10 trainings for a big agency in the U.S.
• 5:11
  where I went in and spoke about expedition
• 5:14
  cruise in very general terms.
• 5:16
  How is it different from traditional cruising?
• 5:20
  Then I did Galapagos in a very general sense.
• 5:23
  This is why one might go, this is how one gets there, this is the best way or among the best ways to see it.
• 5:29
  And then the third webinar, third training was a partner, preferred partner who came in and spoke to how they do the Galapagos.
• 5:36
  Then I did a general Antarctica and then a part preferred partner came in and talked about how they do Antarctica.
• 5:43
  So I was brand agnostic, talked about the destination and why one might go, what one might see, what a day in the life is like when one is there.
• 5:51
  And then a partner would come in and talk about how they do it.
• 5:54
  So that sort of thing.
• 5:55
  We're also creating resources and tools.
• 5:57
  uh
• 5:58
  white labeled PDFs, example, because let me ask you advisors, what's the first question you get asked when someone walks into the agency and says, I want to, we want to go to the
• 6:12
  Galapagos.
• 6:13
  First question is, what's the best time to go to the Galapagos, right?
• 6:18
  So we've created a PDF, just a simple white label, they can put their name, their logo, their email address, their phone number on it.
• 6:25
  And it speaks to the seasons in the Galapagos.
• 6:27
  air temperature, water temperature.
• 6:29
  ah If you're keen snorkelers, you might want to lean towards this time of year.
• 6:33
  If you're keen birders, you may want to lean to this time of year.
• 6:37
  If there's a specific bird that you want to see, you want to go on this itinerary that includes this island at this time of year.
• 6:43
  So trying to solve those problems.
• 6:45
  Okay.
• 6:46
  So what Carl's talking about there was pretty self explanatory, but he's talking about this service, for want of a term, support, better term, ah to signature members, not the
• 6:56
  general agency public out there.
• 6:57
  But a lot of what Carl's mentioned, GO Way also has through our LMS when it comes to destination training as well as touching on, not the depth we'll probably go into today on
• 7:06
  expedition cruising versus normal cruising, but we have a of the resources that Carl mentioned as well.
• 7:10
  So if you're not a signature member, you can also come to GO Way to get that information from GO Way as well.
• 7:16
  and one thing to clarify as well, uh Signature is one of our biggest partners, we're one of your biggest partners uh and as Carl's mentioned, he'd have a preferred operator in, so
• 7:26
  you know, we're honest here, like GoWay doesn't run ships in the Antarctic or the Arctic or that sort of thing.
• 7:33
  We work with our preferred partners, which are people like Silver Sea, Quark, Limbad, a others like that.
• 7:40
  uh So you may be saying to yourself, why not just go to Signature, if you're a Signature agent, just book.
• 7:45
  with Kahl, to speak, or through their prefers.
• 7:48
  Of course you can.
• 7:49
  But the big difference between, and this is just to differentiate between the prefers that Kahl works with on a broader scale, including Go Way, but Go Way can do it all for you.
• 8:00
  not only can we book the Quark, Lindblad, uh Silver Sea, et cetera.
• 8:05
  Air, insurance, pre-post, private transits, all that type of thing.
• 8:10
  that was just a little sail to go away while you work with us and maybe not go directly to the preferred.
• 8:15
  But again, as always, it's your choice and we're both here to support you in any way that you see fit.
• 8:23
  So your job is training on the expedition stroke adventure side of things within the signature world, which goes back to my point, signature have a lot of preferred partners
• 8:33
  in amongst them from Disney to go away to Quark and Silver Seas.
• 8:38
  Okay then.
• 8:39
  So you mentioned already, particularly through the Silver Sea part of your career, that it's not just polar, they do polar, but they do the world.
• 8:47
  Kimberly, Mediterranean?
• 8:49
  Galapagos, the Med.
• 8:51
  Yeah, the Med doesn't lend itself thus far.
• 8:54
  Too much to that expedition cruising.
• 8:57
  I suspect there's a way to do it.
• 8:59
  to date, some some expedition cruise operators are calling some of their voyages, expedition cruises in the Med.
• 9:09
  I think Pannon was doing it.
• 9:10
  I think Lindblad are doing a few as well.
• 9:13
  So there must be way to do it.
• 9:14
  Right, okay.
• 9:15
  So my question is going to be, uh expedition cruising is not necessarily the immediate thought of rough-de-tough-de, well was gonna say rough-de-tough-de because it's not at
• 9:25
  all.
• 9:26
  The adventure side of things, Polar, Galapagos, Amazon, it's pretty much a worldwide offering, correct?
• 9:32
  Okay, so let's get to the crux of it.
• 9:34
  What is the difference between a celebrity cruise, a Norwegian cruise, verse, and expedition cruise?
• 9:41
  First and foremost, it's guest capacity, the size of the vessel.
• 9:46
  Because for the most part, when we're talking about expedition crews, we're talking about vessels that are 240 guests, 250 guests.
• 9:56
  That compared to, this is an interesting statistic.
• 10:02
  The average guest capacity of a ship in Alaska is 2,500 guests.
• 10:10
  That's the average.
• 10:12
  There are some that are considerably larger.
• 10:14
  So expedition cruising, think for the advisor community, you there are some, you come across people who say, never going on a cruise.
• 10:24
  Don't want to cruise, never going to go on a cruise.
• 10:26
  That's you.
• 10:27
  Yet you've been to Antarctica.
• 10:30
  And it wasn't cruising.
• 10:31
  Because the mental image you had in your mind, I suspect, was of you and 2000 or 3000 or 4000 of your closest friends, all trying to disembark at the same time.
• 10:46
  two other vessels or three other vessels import at the same time of a similar size or guest capacity.
• 10:52
  So 12,000 or 15,000 people disgorging in this little community in Alaska.
• 10:59
  And now the number of tourists outweighs the number of residents in this town.
• 11:05
  uh And you're all kind of doing the same activity and it's very, very programmed.
• 11:10
  It's hour by hour by hour by hour by hour.
• 11:13
  Whereas when you went to Antarctica,
• 11:16
  and you were probably zodiac cruising and they said we're just going to put around and see what we can do kayaking we're going to see what comes up and then a whale breached nearby
• 11:25
  or there were some leopard seals over there or there were some penguins porpoising around the zodiac as it was driving around so you never know what you're going to get it's wild
• 11:35
  it's nature it's uh you just get what you get and the expedition leader and the captain
• 11:44
  They'll plan everything out ahead of time.
• 11:46
  It's planned well in advance, but on any given day, they're gonna wake up and they're gonna look at the weather and they're gonna look at the wave and the ice conditions and
• 11:54
  the wind and what's happening with the actual temperature and a number of different variables.
• 11:59
  And they may have to pivot to plan B or plan C or plan D.
• 12:02
  That's actually what happened to us.
• 12:04
  We got into the peninsula after the Drake Passage, was not the Drake Shake, but it was pretty rocky.
• 12:11
  It was fun.
• 12:12
  And I think the first, if not day and a half, maybe two days, we couldn't land because the weather was like...
• 12:19
  I've got a bit of video.
• 12:21
  I might throw it up for those people watching video now, the video version of this.
• 12:24
  And it reminded me of a scene from Aliens, the film, when they land on a planet, it's just blowing a hail.
• 12:30
  It was that sort of...
• 12:32
  prehistoric vibe to it.
• 12:35
  But to your point, safety on any cruise comes first.
• 12:40
  So they weren't going do anything where we couldn't get off safely on save that.
• 12:43
  But yeah, took a day and half, two days before we could do it.
• 12:46
  then to the company and the captain's credit, they made up for it too.
• 12:50
  We didn't rush anything.
• 12:51
  But it was a good issue to say.
• 12:53
  It's programmed for obvious reasons.
• 12:56
  who knows what ship was going to happen.
• 12:59
  And it was all good.
• 13:00
  And it was unproductive.
• 13:02
  Right.
• 13:02
  Completely, which is why I love that type of track.
• 13:06
  and I think, you know, the number one thing to keep in mind or to prepare your clients for is flexibility.
• 13:15
  they have to go in knowing that they need to be flexible and that the itinerary.
• 13:20
  Yeah, things may and likely will change.
• 13:23
  Whereas going back to that example of any of the major cruise lines, and this is not a dig against them, they're doing extremely well for good reason.
• 13:31
  There are many, millions of people who go on traditional cruises, whether it's NCLH or Carnival Corp or Royal Caribbean Group.
• 13:40
  or any others for that matter.
• 13:42
  There are literally tens of millions of people a year that do it and they love it and thank goodness that that part of cruising exists because I think without that we wouldn't
• 13:51
  have had Expedition Cruise.
• 13:53
  well, I don't know for sure, but I think we both agree that you wouldn't because it's an extension of the traditional cruises and I can't speak for yourself, but people have heard
• 14:02
  me talk about this.
• 14:03
  I'm not a fan of traditional cruising.
• 14:05
  It's not my thing.
• 14:06
  But as you mentioned, so what?
• 14:08
  uh We have so many agents out there who focus solely on cruises and work with Go Way for their pre and post and shore excursions, which for those who don't know, we can do all
• 14:16
  that for you.
• 14:17
  Back to my thing that Go Way can do it all for you.
• 14:19
  But it's not my style of travel.
• 14:21
  Now, having said that, I did a cruise
• 14:23
  with Norwegian on a brand new ship two years ago, three years ago.
• 14:28
  It was a sales conference with, I can't remember, our consortia partner.
• 14:32
  And again, I enjoyed it.
• 14:34
  Again, I wouldn't be rushing back.
• 14:36
  It's not my style.
• 14:37
  I did a river cruise in the same scenario as a sales conference thing.
• 14:42
  went in, river cruising.
• 14:44
  And I was somewhat impressed, to be perfectly honest with it.
• 14:46
  And that was in Europe, of course.
• 14:49
  But as you say, it's like the industry.
• 14:51
  There's a niche for everyone and everything.
• 14:53
  And what we're trying to do here is, particularly to our cruise agents, is um show you, if you don't know, that there's something beyond the traditional cruising, which is obviously
• 15:02
  expedition cruising.
• 15:03
  So you mentioned capacity.
• 15:06
  I could just jump back there.
• 15:08
  With the flexibility question, which I agree with, is that more for something in the more extreme areas of the polar versus, say, the Kimberley Coast, where it's
• 15:16
  unlikely itinerary changes would be as common as polar regions.
• 15:21
  that?
• 15:21
  Yeah, I think that's fair.
• 15:22
  I'd agree with that because when there are itinerary changes, it's likely going they are likely going to be because of weather or because of wildlife.
• 15:30
  When you're in the Kimberley, when you're in more temperate regions, the Galapagos, the Galapagos is a very good example because things are so highly regulated there by the
• 15:41
  Galapagos National Park Service, by the government of the Galapagos and by the government of Ecuador that you run an expedition cruise line, I run an expedition cruise line.
• 15:50
  You can't decide tomorrow that you're going to offer jet skiing and I can't decide that I'm going to offer parasailing because the government tells us and the National Park
• 16:00
  Service tells us on Mondays at this island between nine and noon, you are allowed to conduct these four activities snorkeling off the beach, deep water snorkeling or
• 16:13
  snorkeling from the Zodiac, ah kayaking and hiking around the island.
• 16:18
  And that's what you're allowed to do, period.
• 16:20
  And if you're in contravention of that, you're not going to be operating there very long.
• 16:24
  uh So because it's temperate and because they are highly regulated, Galapagos cruise runs like clockwork.
• 16:33
  The other, sorry, one quick thing about because we mentioned capacity first and now coming to this, a Galapagos, the guest capacity of a Galapagos cruise ship is limited to 100.
• 16:46
  Which ship is that?
• 16:47
  The Silver Origin is 100.
• 16:50
  I believe one of the National Geographic Lindblad Expeditions vessels is at 90 or 100.
• 16:58
  Metropolitan, believe, are at 90 or 100.
• 17:02
  And the Celebrity Flora is at about 100 or so.
• 17:06
  So I think there are four of them that are in that 90 to 100.
• 17:09
  And 100 is capacity.
• 17:11
  But the average vessel in the Galapagos
• 17:15
  There are a number of smaller.
• 17:17
  Yeah, there are a number of small yachts that are sorry, 12, 16, 24.
• 17:25
  That's probably where the bulk of them are.
• 17:26
  And then you get some that are in that 48, 32, 48 range.
• 17:30
  And then those four or five that are in that 90, 100 range.
• 17:34
  Yeah, and that extends to the Amazon from a capacity point of view.
• 17:38
  They're smaller capacity numbers, which one bringing that up is expedition cruising to us or what it is.
• 17:43
  It's anything from 16 up to the 250 ish in the polar.
• 17:48
  Yeah, there are exceptions.
• 17:51
  So both Viking and HX Viking operate the Octantis and the Polaris at 382.
• 18:00
  Yeah, and HX operate the rolled Amundsen and the Friedhof Nansen, I think at 500 they rarely get that many but about 400.
• 18:12
  Sorry, just on that, because you mentioned, and I agreed wholeheartedly, that on the traditional big white ships when you dock, you're 2,500, maybe plus a boat or two extra.
• 18:23
  My experience in Antarctica, I think our capacity was 150, and we weren't at full capacity.
• 18:34
  Again, it's very, very structured down in the polar regions as well for, again.
• 18:38
  of safety first, but two, not to overexpose the wildlife and do any damage, type of thing.
• 18:44
  But I found at times with, I think we might've been 120, I wouldn't say landings were crowded.
• 18:51
  Again, we kayaked, so we got away from all that.
• 18:52
  That's one reason we chose kayaking.
• 18:54
  We'd go off and get away from the crowds and come back to the landings.
• 18:58
  I wouldn't say crowded, but that ship's there, and it's generally only one ship in the polar regions per landing, per day.
• 19:07
  You've a lot more experience than I am with this.
• 19:09
  Like a ship of 300 or 500, to use your term, disgorging in Antarctica, doesn't that start to defeat the purpose of expedition definition?
• 19:19
  Smaller groups, comparatively speaking.
• 19:20
  Yeah, it's done differently though as as the ships increase in capacity.
• 19:25
  So because Antarctica doesn't belong to one nation, using the example of the Galapagos, Ecuador, the government of the Galapagos, the National Park Service of the Galapagos can
• 19:36
  dictate exactly what happens in the Galapagos who, what, where, when, why and for how long.
• 19:42
  When expedition cruising started in Antarctica or I think it was in 91, 92.
• 19:49
  some of the operators that were down there and there were probably only a handful of them at the time.
• 19:53
  They got together and said, there's no one governing us.
• 19:56
  So we should govern ourselves before somebody comes along and governs us and tells us what we can and can't do.
• 20:03
  And they were very conservative in the regulations that they came up with.
• 20:10
  And they really did govern themselves because you would think that a group of companies, they're in the business of making money.
• 20:17
  Yeah.
• 20:17
  would say, nah, let's let 300 people at a time go ashore.
• 20:22
  They didn't, because they were made up of conservationists.
• 20:26
  They were made up of researchers and scientists and entrepreneurs and people that wanted to make money.
• 20:32
  But at the same time, their fascination with, let's use Antarctica as an example, uh came from a really pure place, you know, and let's preserve this because they felt and still
• 20:45
  do.
• 20:45
  very strongly about bringing the world to see it and to experiencing it.
• 20:50
  Having that philosophy, which I'm aware of, that's why I'm sort of raising my eyebrows for those aren't watching the video thing about the 300 to 500 capacity.
• 20:59
  so here's the if it wasn't the first regulation, I would argue it's one of the most important regulations that they came up with.
• 21:08
  First of all, they created an organization called IAATO, I A A T O, the International Association of Antarctic Tour operators, self governing, because there's no single
• 21:19
  government that owns or operates Antarctica.
• 21:22
  So we're going to govern ourselves, we're going to call it IAATO, and we're going to watch each other.
• 21:26
  We're going to keep each other in check.
• 21:28
  And one of those first regulations was no more than a hundred guests ashore at a time So regardless of the size of the vessel, okay, whether it's there's there's one operating
• 21:38
  there that is a seven guest sailboat And you go up to a checks at the other end at 500, right?
• 21:47
  You've got larger ones.
• 21:48
  You've got celebrity in Holland and some of those doing us doing a cruise by
• 21:52
  Cruise by, yeah, just look, I don't wanna go off the subject, but that's the other thing too, that some of the big white ships as we turn them cruise by Antarctica.
• 22:01
  They don't do the landings, and this is a good example of, think another.
• 22:06
  differential between traditional cruising and expedition cruising.
• 22:10
  They're a lot more active and participatory.
• 22:13
  That's the right word.
• 22:14
  Whereas, and again, we're talking polar at this stage, the bigger ships will cruise by and you sort of wave an antarctic in the distance where the ships we're talking about is shore
• 22:22
  landings, kayaking, some ships off diving.
• 22:26
  Camping.
• 22:26
  Camping, helicopter flights over.
• 22:30
  all this type of stuff.
• 22:31
  we won't get into those details because that's more of a polar conversation.
• 22:34
  Sorry, I just wanted to point that out.
• 22:36
  going back to...
• 22:37
  it out.
• 22:37
  So the regulations were uh yachts under 12 or sailboats or vessels with 12 or fewer guests.
• 22:48
  sorry.
• 22:57
  So, uh 12.
• 22:59
  So the regulations are in a couple different categories.
• 23:03
  Vessels with 12 or fewer guests, they can land wherever they want because it was recognized that 12 people making a landing, new landing, landing at a stretch of pebble
• 23:17
  beach that no one's ever landed at before, 12 people probably aren't going to wear a path down.
• 23:24
  and disturb a penguin colony or a small rookery of 12 or 15 birds.
• 23:33
  therefore, 12 vessels of 12 or fewer can land wherever they want on the pen...
• 23:37
  I think anywhere on the continent, frankly.
• 23:40
  Then there's category one vessels, so up to 200 guests.
• 23:46
  There are, I believe, upwards of 130 landing sites where they can go.
• 23:54
  and these are category one ships.
• 23:57
  So 200 or fewer guests, they still can only take 100 guests ashore at a time.
• 24:03
  So the example you gave of a vessel that was has a capacity of 150, you were sailing with fewer than that, you probably split up into three groups.
• 24:13
  Group one, group two, and the kayakers.
• 24:16
  right.
• 24:16
  So group one went to shore, while group two did zodiac cruising to go and look for whales and go look for seals and
• 24:23
  uh cruise along the coast in the zodiacs.
• 24:26
  Zodiacs in case you don't know are a rigid inflatable boat.
• 24:29
  It's a brand name.
• 24:30
  They're out of France called zodiac and everyone just calls them zodiac like Kleenex.
• 24:36
  Yeah, it's a brand name.
• 24:38
  But it's technically it's a rigid inflatable boat.
• 24:40
  It's a big black rubber boat with a hard bottom.
• 24:44
  And you sit on the pontoons and they're super capable of getting into uh
• 24:51
  tiny little spots, they're very, very maneuverable and they're incredibly tough.
• 24:57
  So the regulation of a hundred guests ashore at a time stands, even if you're a category one ship.
• 25:04
  So category one, usually one group ashore, one group zodiac cruising, and then after an hour and a half, two hours, they switch places.
• 25:13
  So that everyone who was zodiac cruising gets an opportunity to go to land and everyone who was on land gets an opportunity to go zodiac cruising.
• 25:21
  Then you have category two ships, 201 guests up to 500 guests.
• 25:28
  Still limited to 100 guests on shore at a time, but there are fewer IATO designated landing sites that they are allowed to go to because they're going to take more people
• 25:42
  there over the course of a day.
• 25:45
  So it has to be a little bit bigger, the colony has to be a little bit more robust or spread out.
• 25:50
  So that even though we're only taking 100 people at a time, when those 100 are done, we're going to take the second group of 100.
• 25:56
  And when they're done, we're going to take the third group of 100, etc.
• 26:00
  So that colony may get visited or those colonies, that landing site may get visited by 500 people that day.
• 26:07
  Five groups of 100.
• 26:10
  And it's been designated that those sites are probably robust enough, big enough, spread out enough to handle it.
• 26:17
  Yeah, that we're not going to do too much.
• 26:19
  harm by visiting.
• 26:22
  What those guys tend to do, the Vikings and the HXs that I mentioned because Viking operated 382 and HX up to 500.
• 26:32
  They usually won't do what you probably experienced, which is we're going to go visit ABC Bay today.
• 26:41
  And we're going to have a landing and we're going to have a Zodiac cruise.
• 26:43
  And then we're going to go back to the ship for lunch and the ship is going to navigate around to XYZ Bay.
• 26:48
  And when we get there, we're going to do the same thing.
• 26:51
  The larger the guys with the greater uh guest capacity recognize that we can't do that.
• 26:57
  We can't get 500 people off this ship for 30 minutes at a time and rush them back to get them at lunch and then go find another spot and do it again.
• 27:05
  So they park themselves for it.
• 27:07
  And it's really interesting because their model is, hey, this is our base camp.
• 27:12
  We've chosen this spot because of how beautiful it is.
• 27:16
  And
• 27:17
  If you want to go kayaking at some point today, we're here all day.
• 27:20
  Take your time.
• 27:21
  Okay, so again, I know we're focusing on Polar, we will expand for that in a minute, but it's something we both know and at least from my experience at GoA, most of our expedition
• 27:31
  cruising, well, for us, expedition cruising is primarily Polar, Galapagos, and the Amazon.
• 27:37
  It's not all, but that's the bulk of what we would term expedition cruising.
• 27:41
  So you're saying that...
• 27:45
  If I'm an agent presenting Antarctic to a client, I assume this extends to the Arctic, similar, maybe not letter for letter, but similar.
• 27:53
  That for a more complete experience, more landings, um less people naturally, you want to stick with the lower berth ship because you get the options to couple landings a day,
• 28:07
  potentially more activities involve camping, that type of thing, because the numbers are lower.
• 28:12
  and usually a little more time.
• 28:13
  little more time.
• 28:14
  And so the larger ships, your experiences are still fantastic at Antarctica or the Arctic, but your options for landings, et cetera, are less different, but less.
• 28:27
  Yeah, usually a little bit less time.
• 28:28
  That's fair.
• 28:29
  That's not the compromise.
• 28:30
  Yeah, because there's an upside and a downside to everything.
• 28:32
  Yeah, these little vessels, the smaller ones with a smaller guest capacity.
• 28:37
  They're not large ships.
• 28:40
  And therefore the number of common areas or the actual common space where footage Yeah, you get into a larger vessel and they likely have multiple dining rooms to choose from
• 28:52
  multiple bars and lounges, a science lab.
• 28:57
  a show room or in this case, it would be for the lectures and that sort of thing.
• 29:01
  They all have a lecture theater.
• 29:04
  But the larger the vessel, they've got more square footage to work with.
• 29:08
  And so they'll add more comments, common areas.
• 29:11
  Okay, so a very general term that I've used historically and trained people here about when it comes to expedition versus cruise ships, again, broad strokes here, similar to
• 29:21
  what you mentioned there.
• 29:21
  On an expedition ship, it's generally the nuts and bolts of meat and potatoes.
• 29:25
  Like you have a dining area, now based on your comments, a larger ship, maybe one or two.
• 29:30
  ah There is a lecture room, in my instance, was at the front of the vessel.
• 29:35
  ah A gift store, doctor was always on board.
• 29:40
  Medical facilities are always fantastic on any level of vessel anywhere in the world ah But it's not what
• 29:47
  a big white ship is.
• 29:48
  It's not like you have shows like the Price is Right and there are seven different dinings or 20 different dining rooms, food court and a swimming pool and a go-kart track and a
• 29:59
  casino, right?
• 30:00
  So expedition cruising, polar or not, is not that.
• 30:05
  Larger ships may have a few more amenities, but it's not, I hate to use it, but it's the way I can compare it.
• 30:11
  It's not like a Disneyland on water.
• 30:14
  with all the rides and attractions.
• 30:15
  It's more of a adventure science based environment.
• 30:20
  Probably a lot more social, particularly on the smaller vessels.
• 30:25
  You don't see as many faces, therefore, bond with everyone, or my son did at the bar.
• 30:32
  But you might, like, you get, in my experience, the river cruise.
• 30:36
  the big white ship cruise and the Antarctica cruise, I found that, I'm not the most sociable person, believe it or not, I found that I sort of got to know people more on the
• 30:45
  smaller environment, which sort of makes sense in itself.
• 30:48
  Yeah.
• 30:48
  Yeah, you share a zodiac ride with somebody and then you see an orca taking a seal or a penguin.
• 30:58
  And you've shared that experience with the other eight people on your zodiac.
• 31:02
  And now you end up sitting beside each other because you've had this common experience and you decide that you're going to have lunch together that day.
• 31:09
  And you look at each other's photos.
• 31:11
  Hey, did you get the food like from again?
• 31:14
  know we're talking polar but let me ask this question so we don't put people off so to speak these experiences are somewhat the same regardless of location on an expedition
• 31:25
  absolutely because I think I was just gonna jump in on there was yet on our trip right now it's common that you photos will be Broadcast like on the big screen if you want to submit
• 31:35
  your photos and we'll show them this type of thing So it's that real small village vibe.
• 31:40
  I guess yeah way putting it
• 31:41
  think that's a really good way to put it.
• 31:43
  The other thing I wanted to mention is that in terms of trying to keep it straight, or if you want to explain it to your clients, very often the large ships, the ship is the
• 31:53
  destination.
• 31:54
  Yeah.
• 31:55
  Because the likes of Royal Caribbean, and CLH, Carnival Corp, they put a lot of time and effort, they have entire divisions.
• 32:06
  that design these ships and design the things that are going to go on the ships.
• 32:10
  And so the promenade or the wave pool or the water slide or whatever it might be the go kart track.
• 32:19
  You take a couple of teenagers or preteens on something like that or younger kids.
• 32:24
  Disney are probably the best example of this.
• 32:27
  The ship is the destination.
• 32:30
  They're varying from that a little bit now because they have their private islands.
• 32:34
  But it's kind of an extension of the ship.
• 32:36
  It's still us and it's going to be all of our branding and it's going to be all here.
• 32:40
  And now you get to be on the beach for a day.
• 32:42
  We give the crew on the ship a little bit of a break for a couple of hours because a lot of guests went to the beach.
• 32:47
  But it means they're going to track a lot of sand back onto the ship.
• 32:51
  But the ship is the destination where the ship goes is almost incidental compared to expedition cruising.
• 32:59
  the destination is the draw.
• 33:01
  The ship is almost incidental because going back to Galapagos as an example, and we were talking about how everything is so regulated in the Galapagos where, when, how, regardless
• 33:14
  of who's operating there, somebody at a higher uh price point and that luxury level, like a silver sea with butler service and uh two dining rooms to choose from in the Galapagos
• 33:25
  uh to a more
• 33:28
  uh modest like a Metropolitan or G Adventures operate a ship in the Galapagos as well.
• 33:34
  So something a little more modest, everyone's off ship experience is going to be the same.
• 33:40
  Yeah, you're basically grabbing my tagline from training is that um it doesn't, and this is more the Galapagos, well, by extension the Amazon as well.
• 33:50
  It doesn't matter what vessel you're on, five star, four star, three star, terminology one of the years.
• 33:57
  And this is the onshore or off-boat, because sometimes you're on the water, the off-boat experiences will be not identical, but almost similar.
• 34:06
  It's pretty level playing field.
• 34:08
  So once you're off the vessel, your three star or your five star, you'll hopefully all see the same manta rays or penguins on the beach in the Galapagos or even Antarctica.
• 34:17
  Now, with some clarification based on your, you mentioned before, sizes of ships will limit certain landing points.
• 34:24
  But still, yeah, and that's key.
• 34:26
  I think what you said before, uh perfect way of summing it up.
• 34:29
  And again, it's not a diss on the big white ships like.
• 34:32
  There are so many agents out there who sell it and they keep putting these ships on the open waters.
• 34:36
  There's obviously demand for it.
• 34:38
  And it's just not what GOA specializes in.
• 34:40
  We're on the expedition side of things for the reasons you just mentioned.
• 34:44
  We're not selling the ship as a destination, we're selling the destination.
• 34:47
  as the destination.
• 34:49
  Now, on that note, one thing I've noticed over many years in the industry is when I started, and Blattin was my focus, therefore, by extension, the polar regions, is back in
• 35:00
  the day, I remember selling with Quark, the Russian research vessels, the Ivanov, I can't remember.
• 35:10
  And that's what it was back in the day.
• 35:13
  That's the one, Iofian, that type of thing.
• 35:17
  I think it still runs in the Arctic, the 50 years of victory, I think.
• 35:20
  That's the nuclear powered ice breaker.
• 35:23
  Icebreaker.
• 35:24
  So like they were industrial vessels.
• 35:26
  Working vessels.
• 35:27
  And that was the way you went to Antarctica in the day.
• 35:31
  And as it's matured and progressed, I remember uh Antarctica 21 came out with a boat, a new vessel recently, think.
• 35:41
  memory is not very good.
• 35:42
  My point is, though, a lot of the operators who go into Antarctica, and by extension,
• 35:48
  The Kimberleys, Galapagos is another prime example.
• 35:51
  The Amazons is another prime example.
• 35:53
  uh The Norwegian fjords is another prime example.
• 35:58
  They've gone from old ferries, old research vessels, to purpose-built luxury.
• 36:05
  Now, it doesn't mean casinos and water slides, but can you speak to how there are still the budget options, but most expedition vessels are still small, but they're now very
• 36:17
  luxurious in offerings.
• 36:18
  Is that?
• 36:19
  Yeah, that's right.
• 36:20
  the trend?
• 36:20
  Yeah.
• 36:20
  Absolutely true.
• 36:21
  My first trip to Antarctica was in 2002 on a Russian icebreaker called the Kapitan Dronitsyn.
• 36:29
  Her home port was Vladivostok.
• 36:31
  eh And so she had to traverse the Pacific to get to Ushuaia, which is at the southern tip of Argentina.
• 36:40
  That's where we boarded the vessel.
• 36:41
  And icebreakers are not built with stabilizers.
• 36:44
  They were not built to go across rough water necessarily.
• 36:47
  Or if they were, was with hearty Russian sailors.
• 36:51
  who don't give a damn about seasickness because they don't have it.
• 36:54
  Whatever they do.
• 36:55
  ah And we went across some pretty rough seas and we had bunks in our cabins and a shared bathroom, know, three or four cabins to share a bathroom, which was down the hall kind of
• 37:09
  thing.
• 37:10
  It was very, very uh Spartan.
• 37:13
  It was very uh simple.
• 37:18
  Let's put it.
• 37:19
  Yeah.
• 37:21
  but the vessel was incredibly capable in terms of what she could do.
• 37:25
  But at the time, it wasn't about the vessel, it wasn't about the food, it wasn't about the lounge or the bar or anything like that.
• 37:33
  It was about the destination and what can we do when we get to the destination and we had the most incredible experience.
• 37:40
  But you're absolutely right.
• 37:41
  And the timing of it all, uh
• 37:45
  80s 90s, the Soviet Union was breaking apart, they needed hard currency.
• 37:50
  There was these there were these Russian research vessels and working icebreakers that weren't working, because they didn't have the hard currency to buy the fuel to do anything
• 38:00
  with.
• 38:01
  And these clever entrepreneurs in Europe and in North America said, how much are you going to charge us to rent that thing or to charter that thing for four months?
• 38:10
  And they would charter these vessels for four months.
• 38:14
  fill them up with fuel, advertise, hey, we're going to Antarctica.
• 38:17
  And it's for this many days and find a bunch of people that were willing to be crew and drive the zodiacs around.
• 38:23
  And maybe this one is a marine biologist, and that one's an ornithologist, and that one's a glaciologist who can speak to everybody about it.
• 38:30
  But you're right.
• 38:31
  And that's that changed with silver sea, probably in around 2000 or the early 2000s when
• 38:42
  Silversea had sort of pioneered this idea of small ship luxury cruising and small ship in those days meant 600 versus the 2000s and the 3000s.
• 38:51
  ah And they said, why don't we take the same idea of luxury on a small vessel, but go into the likes of Galapagos and the Arctic and Antarctic and some of those more remote regions,
• 39:04
  we can still deliver this product.
• 39:06
  It still wasn't on purpose built vessels.
• 39:10
  They were cruise ships.
• 39:11
  that were modified to be expedition vessels.
• 39:14
  Then came the third iteration, which is a bunch of vessels that have been built, a number of them during the pandemic, uh purpose-built expedition ships.
• 39:24
  We want it to have this ice class, so it needs this amount of steel in the hull.
• 39:29
  We want it to carry this many zodiacs of this size, and we need to be able to launch.
• 39:34
  and retrieve the zodiacs in an easy way.
• 39:36
  So some of them open a little garage door at water level and slide the zodiacs out.
• 39:41
  Other of others have them on the top deck and they have some cranes, which them down and winch them back up when they're done.
• 39:48
  So there are a number of different ways to do it.
• 39:49
  But to your point, yeah, a number of these companies have now built purpose built expedition ships.
• 39:56
  And they've upped the game.
• 39:57
  They've upped the ante because if you don't have a spa on board now, it's
• 40:02
  recognized, it's noticed that you don't have a spa.
• 40:05
  So they all have a spa.
• 40:06
  It might just be a sauna and a plunge pool, or a couple of hot tubs or something like that.
• 40:12
  But others go to the extreme like Viking has an incredible, incredible spa on their vessels.
• 40:17
  Yeah.
• 40:18
  Yeah.
• 40:19
  So yeah, it's just interesting.
• 40:21
  And this is the industry in general, not just expedition cruising, that people are still looking for those authentic experiences, be it wildlife, be it cultural.
• 40:29
  But as certain groups get older, like myself,
• 40:33
  I to be, or still am an adventure lover, still go back country camping, but a lot of the times I want to do all the rough-de-tough-de-as-I-term-it-during-the-day or over a couple
• 40:40
  of days, but I want come back to not necessarily five, six-star, but a comfortable environment at end of the day, which goes back to your point of the land experiences from
• 40:49
  an expedition cruising point of view anywhere in the world ah will be similar in experiences.
• 40:57
  It's what you want to come back to at night Which is the difference and the market has shown that on an expedition cruising level people want to come back they don't want to
• 41:06
  come back the Russian research vessel they want to come back and have a spa or a treatment or Come back to their captain's cabin, which is expansive with king beds and this type of
• 41:16
  thing right does it make a difference to what you just saw that that day verse the The yacht the 12 person you know, but if that's your choice, that's your choice
• 41:25
  Adventure by day, comfort by night.
• 41:28
  And you know, just quickly touching back on how it was, dinner was a buffet.
• 41:35
  Yeah, the culinary offerings.
• 41:37
  Even if there's only one or if there are two dining rooms on some of these purpose-built vessels, lunch and dinner are typically a la carte.
• 41:47
  So you've got a menu, you've got choices.
• 41:49
  it's not necessarily gonna be a buffet, whereas it was.
• 41:53
  So the culinary offerings, uh I would say the caliber of the lecturers and the enrichment program.
• 41:59
  Unbelievable.
• 42:00
  like the level again, I know we're focusing on polar but and Kyle back me up on this this extends to any expedition crew absolutely we're in the world like the level of expertise
• 42:11
  like we had PhDs Marine biologists where this French Canadian woman who was that kayak instructor who I can't remember her professional designations, but they're impressive but
• 42:23
  she'd go from the Antarctica waters to Greenland in the Antarctic
• 42:29
  season and her expertise on the water, her knowledge of wildlife and the lectures, have lectures, really lectures, but they were fantastic.
• 42:38
  They're incredible.
• 42:38
  Engaging and from a family point of view, like we had kids with us, well we had one son with us, but we've experienced this on the Galapagos as well with the family.
• 42:47
  The education that you can get from an expedition cruise is awesome.
• 42:51
  Taking nothing away from your water slides and wave pools.
• 42:55
  But personally, I'd rather my kids learn about the wildlife of the Galapagos, the Amazon, et cetera, over that.
• 43:01
  And to your point about the lectures and getting away from the polar regions, because I know we focused on that a lot.
• 43:06
  I took my son, who was 10 at the time on a National Geographic Lindblad Expeditions ship uh voyage to the Kimberley Coast.
• 43:16
  He loved every single lecture.
• 43:20
  We're going to be late for the lecture.
• 43:21
  Come on, we got to go.
• 43:22
  have three minutes until the lecture starts.
• 43:24
  Yeah.
• 43:25
  Boom.
• 43:25
  We were there and he's front row listening to these marine biologists ornithologists, historians talking about the aboriginal history of that part of Australia.
• 43:34
  uh Last February, so February of 25, we were with Panao on their icebreaker in the St.
• 43:41
  Lawrence, sailing from Quebec City to Gaspé and Seteal and up the Saguenay Fjord all the way to Saguenay.
• 43:48
  We got off the ship and we were...
• 43:50
  dog sledding, snowshoeing, we slept in a chapatuan, which is like a teepee almost one night, and then back to the ships.
• 43:58
  The lecturers were incredible.
• 44:00
  There was one guy who was a specialist, and I've forgotten now how many owls, hawks, falcons, and other birds of prey that he has.
• 44:12
  He was, and we looked this up afterwards to make sure, he was...
• 44:19
  you would call it an expert that lent his expertise to the folks that made the Harry Potter films.
• 44:25
  Right.
• 44:25
  Because there are scenes there with all the owls.
• 44:28
  Right.
• 44:28
  he lent his owl to them for filming.
• 44:32
  But he talked to us about owls because we were in a part of northern, well, southern Quebec, but in a part of Quebec where there would have been a lot of owls and I think
• 44:40
  there was a snowy owl sighting.
• 44:42
  So he took the lecture, took the stage and talked to us about owls.
• 44:46
  ah I was in Indonesia.
• 44:49
  in Raja Ampat on a 40 guest little expedition yacht in the furthest eastern extreme of Indonesia and we were diving and snorkeling and kayaking and stand up paddleboarding.
• 45:00
  The lecturers were these young Indonesian guys telling us about life in Indonesia and uh this part of Indonesia we had a cooking class with the chef.
• 45:10
  So all of all of that to say that
• 45:14
  these companies to be viable these days to make sure that they're at the top of their game and competing with the big boys.
• 45:23
  They all have to have first class, world class uh lectures and the food, know, the culinary offering.
• 45:34
  So it's not the way it was 30 years ago.
• 45:38
  it's not.
• 45:39
  And I'm glad you mentioned the Indonesian experience with local Indonesian guides.
• 45:43
  Not so much for poll because there's Western European guides, knowledge, exceptions.
• 45:49
  We had a similar thing with there was an author.
• 45:53
  What's the bird?
• 45:56
  Or just on board.
• 45:56
  Yeah.
• 45:57
  Who'd published books and it was incredible.
• 45:59
  But more importantly, when you get to areas like Amazon, Galapagos.
• 46:05
  I can't speak to the Kimberley but I'm going to assume on the shore excursions particularly the local guides, particularly Galapagos and Amazon because a lot of your
• 46:13
  guides will be Peruvian, Brazilian, etc.
• 46:18
  Ecuadorian and their knowledge is exceptional and they all have to be educated or are higher school, higher level educators and then they're marine biologists, etc.
• 46:28
  well.
• 46:29
  been really quickly about Galapagos.
• 46:31
  To be a guide in the Galapagos, you must be a permanent resident of the Galapagos.
• 46:37
  Yeah.
• 46:38
  And then take a mandatory, I believe it's a four month training program.
• 46:42
  Most of them have an undergrad degree and then come back and do the four month training.
• 46:46
  this is Ecuador and the Galapagos and the National Park Service, making sure that all of this money that's being spent by these tourists going into the Galapagos
• 46:56
  A lot of it is staying there because every crew member from the captain to the folks in the the galley have to be Ecuadorian and every guide has to be a permanent resident of the
• 47:09
  Galapagos.
• 47:10
  Correct, sorry.
• 47:11
  I'm glad you brought that up because again, the Galapagos is an extreme example of that um red tape, positive red tape, I say that.
• 47:20
  But by extension, excluding probably the polar regions, because there are no locals, unless you've got a penguin bouncing around who can speak English all of a sudden.
• 47:28
  Most of these other cruises, Amazon, Galapagos, uh Kimberley, not so much the Norwegian Fords, or the Norwegian would be the most part, but...
• 47:36
  They're highly concentrated on the local economies, local guides, all cruises, be it, you know, be white ship cruise to Mexico or into the Amazon and putting money back into local
• 47:47
  economies.
• 47:47
  But to your point, I think the cultural immersion you get from expedition cruising um is more prominent than it would be on a traditional cruise.
• 47:59
  Yeah.
• 47:59
  Yeah.
• 47:59
  Yeah.
• 48:00
  Think about an expedition river cruise on the Mekong.
• 48:03
  In Egypt.
• 48:04
  go.
• 48:05
  It's a place we haven't mentioned.
• 48:06
  actually, let's just hit some areas because we highly focus polar Amazon, Ecuador, because we both have a passion for Latin.
• 48:15
  But you've done the world of expedition cruising.
• 48:17
  So you mentioned Kimberley.
• 48:18
  You've been to this ah cruising on the Nile.
• 48:22
  Yeah.
• 48:23
  Where do you also mention the Mekong, the Mekong as well?
• 48:27
  There are expedition river cruises now in Colombia.
• 48:31
  So, Amawaterways is operating one and there will be two.
• 48:37
  On the Magdalena River in Colombia.
• 48:42
  The Brahmaputra River in India.
• 48:44
  The Nile in Egypt obviously.
• 48:47
  The Mekong, uh Vietnam and Cambodia.
• 48:50
  I think they go into both areas.
• 48:52
  That's just expedition river cruising.
• 48:55
  cruising then you've got I guess the Whitsundays, Barrier Reef Australia, on the outside the Kimberley.
• 49:00
  the Kimberley Coast on the northwest side.
• 49:01
  Papua New Guinea, for sure.
• 49:07
  A lot of people still going into there.
• 49:08
  ah Maybe not a lot, but there are operators still going into Papua New Guinea, and that's fascinating.
• 49:17
  There are...
• 49:19
  along the African coast, the West African coast, the East African coast.
• 49:23
  Aqua expeditions have just launched and I think we'll start sailing this year in the Seychelles on a small 30 something or 40 guest expedition ship.
• 49:33
  Yeah, French Polynesia.
• 49:35
  uh You know, we used to say at Silver Sea, anywhere water touches land and sometimes it moves around.
• 49:41
  uh
• 49:42
  the West Coast of Africa.
• 49:44
  So from Cape Town going up along the Namibian coast and going as far as Senegal and then from Senegal all the way to Portugal having taken in the Cape Verde Islands and some of
• 49:55
  the coast.
• 49:56
  Again, you've said this a number of times and you're not wrong.
• 50:00
  Safety is the number one priority of the company, the operator and the captain and the expedition staff.
• 50:07
  So they're cautious about where they go.
• 50:09
  They have to be and things can change.
• 50:10
  em
• 50:12
  you know, at a moment's notice because of changing conditions.
• 50:16
  some people might hear, oh, the West Coast of Africa, obviously only if it's safe.
• 50:20
  Yeah.
• 50:20
  But yeah, around the Horn of Africa and coast, there's expedition cruising being done bottom around the bottom of India.
• 50:30
  You have to look for it.
• 50:32
  Yeah, and again we're talking expedition cruising anywhere from budget to high end.
• 50:38
  So let's broach the subject which would be one of the biggest barriers I think for an agent out there dealing with...
• 50:47
  I want to go to the Caribbean or Mexico on a five-day cruise or even a longer one, 10 or 12.
• 50:55
  And I'll just use Norwegian because we work with Norwegian.
• 50:58
  You get the brochure and it's like, okay, you free wifi, you get a free drinks package, you get this, this, this, and we'll throw in your airfare and it's 1500 bucks or 2000 a
• 51:07
  person upgrades if you want.
• 51:09
  Okay, so it's affordable, which is one of the biggest attractions of big white ship cruising.
• 51:16
  It won't surprise anyone, but particularly Polar is comparatively is expensive compared to that.
• 51:24
  Nile cruising is more affordable, but it's still probably higher than a big white ship cruise or a Mediterranean traditional cruise.
• 51:32
  So what's your counter argument or training tips on that?
• 51:40
  First and foremost, it's all inclusive.
• 51:44
  I got it.
• 51:45
  Because I think on the big ships, there are always opportunities for you to spend more money.
• 51:50
  Upgrade the drinks package or go to this upgrade this upgrade that or yes, but it doesn't include that.
• 51:57
  So you have to go, you know, purchase that or the or the shore excursions included.
• 52:01
  Do you want to go on an Alaska cruise when you do stop in in Ketchikan or Sitka or one of those smaller Alaskan towns?
• 52:10
  Is the dog sledding included?
• 52:12
  Is the glacier trip included?
• 52:13
  It may or may not be.
• 52:14
  So you've got to kick in.
• 52:15
  And by virtue of where you're going on an expedition cruise, there are no concessionaires.
• 52:23
  The operator is the operator.
• 52:25
  So they're the ones taking you kayaking.
• 52:26
  They're the ones taking you stand up paddle boarding.
• 52:28
  They're the ones taking you on a walk around uh the island that you're visiting and going visiting the giant tortoises on those little islands in the Seychelles.
• 52:37
  So there are no concessionaires to pay.
• 52:41
  the operator that you're working with that you're sailing with, they do everything.
• 52:44
  So it's all inclusive.
• 52:46
  There's nothing, there are no up charges for anything.
• 52:48
  Some of them will charge for a kayak package, most of them will throw in the kayaking.
• 52:52
  uh So that's one element of it.
• 52:55
  The other is, frankly, it's justified because it takes specialized equipment.
• 53:01
  We talked a little bit about the ships, but there's a lot we could go into about the ships.
• 53:06
  These are highly specialized ships, particularly in the polar regions in the Amazon, I suspect as well.
• 53:12
  They have to be, uh you know, shallow draft and all sorts of things that come along with that.
• 53:18
  So and the seasonality, right, the seasonality of some of these areas, they're operating for four months in one polar region.
• 53:27
  Then they've got to get from the south to the north.
• 53:30
  Those repositioning vessels or those repositioning cruises don't have the draw of Antarctica.
• 53:36
  Yeah, or the Arctic, where we might see polar bears.
• 53:40
  And so those don't sell as well.
• 53:43
  They're a bit tricky to sell.
• 53:45
  Not that there's anything wrong with the regions.
• 53:47
  They just don't have that appeal.
• 53:50
  The smaller guest capacity, the economies of scale.
• 53:53
  Yeah.
• 53:55
  4000 people on a vessel versus 40 people.
• 53:59
  I mentioned the one in in Indonesia or even 200.
• 54:03
  Yeah, that's a big difference.
• 54:06
  And you would, some people would argue, well, yeah, the operating costs are significantly different.
• 54:10
  They are, but again, there's a lot of specialized equipment and a lot of specialized people involved as well.
• 54:16
  So all inclusive, just the sheer guest capacity um of what you're working with and the specialty nature of the vessels and all of the equipment.
• 54:27
  We talked briefly about the zodiacs.
• 54:30
  So.
• 54:31
  The guides get into the zodiacs and then they've got radios and they've got range finders and these radios have to be able to work in Antarctica and work in all conditions.
• 54:38
  uh Range finders and compasses when you're that close to one of the poles don't really work very well.
• 54:46
  You can imagine trying to hold a traditional compass.
• 54:48
  So all of that just to say that they need highly highly specialized gear, all of which costs a lot of money.
• 54:54
  And then there's supply and demand.
• 54:56
  When you do get, when you talk about the big white ships as you put it.
• 55:00
  In the Caribbean, how many births during the Caribbean season are there?
• 55:07
  I would argue 40,000 births maybe when you add up all the Royal Caribbean ships and all the Holland America ships and all the NCLH ships and the Carnival ships when you add them
• 55:19
  all up.
• 55:20
  How many births are there?
• 55:22
  There are probably 50,000, tens of thousands also.
• 55:25
  of tens, yeah.
• 55:27
  If you add up all the Antarctica births or all the Galapagos births, and I remember this because when I was at Silver Sea, ah it was still privately owned and Royal Caribbean
• 55:39
  Group was courting them to buy them.
• 55:41
  And apparently the story goes that when the CEO at the time was asking about, you know,
• 55:48
  we're doing a SWOT analysis, know, strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats.
• 55:53
  And some of the brainiacs and the bean counters said, well, sir, you know, these vessels are expensive and and the price point is this much and da da da da da.
• 56:01
  And a number of these vessels are being built right now.
• 56:04
  This was just before the pandemic.
• 56:05
  And I think on the order book, there were 35 expedition ships in 2019 to be built over the course of the next five or six years.
• 56:14
  No, no, no, sorry.
• 56:15
  Expedition.
• 56:16
  across the board, 35 of them being built.
• 56:19
  And he said, Well, what's the guest capacity when you add up all those 35 ships together?
• 56:23
  And they said, but 6000.
• 56:24
  And he said, so one of our ships?
• 56:28
  Because one Royal Caribbean ship, I think is 5200 guests or something like that.
• 56:33
  So you got to put it in perspective.
• 56:34
  Yeah, so just on the point of the guiding, I'm not saying any of the guides or the staff on the big white ships are any less because they're very good.
• 56:43
  know, dealing with people is a skill and there are professional designations that go behind a lot of the staffing.
• 56:50
  But when I came back from quacks, I used to be a travel guy.
• 56:53
  just made I wasn't looking at doing it.
• 56:56
  I just sort of made some inquiries about what do I have to do to become a guide or staff member on a polar again, back to polar.
• 57:03
  all a thing and it was my god like understandably I wasn't like you don't have to do that it was like all these courses you had to do like handling zodiacs flipping boats crowd
• 57:17
  uh There's another one that's that they all demand that you have now and there are only so many places that teach it.
• 57:25
  You have to go to the location that teaches is put put yourself up for a week or 10 days and take that course and it's about fire suppression on board and crowd control.
• 57:36
  Then they do they'll go down early season or late season and stick around and they'll do crevasse rescue.
• 57:45
  So
• 57:46
  Really cool skills.
• 57:47
  full skills and it's expensive and it takes a lot of time and you want your team prepared for these things so you're paying them to be there and you're not generating any revenue.
• 57:57
  And then on top of that, so I'm just Joe Blow, lots of experience in travel, no sort of formal designations behind me.
• 58:04
  So I go and get all those skills and I'm competing with people who've got those skills, who are PhDs or marine biologists.
• 58:10
  like, holy crap.
• 58:13
  and again, this is again, polar from a price point of view is an extreme example.
• 58:19
  staffing, polo is an extreme example because of the location you have to have skills.
• 58:24
  But by extension, this extends to all expedition cruising.
• 58:28
  ah again, the Nile isn't as expensive as polo, but it's probably more expensive than the big white ship.
• 58:35
  And you've given all the reasons.
• 58:36
  But I think the key reason, not that you've forgotten because I know you haven't, is the experience on a big white ship.
• 58:43
  It's fun, it's party time.
• 58:46
  your quote, well, I agree that ship is a destination we've discussed before expedition is the destination.
• 58:53
  And we are talking in a lot of instances, extreme locations, polar heart of the Amazon, the Galapagos was very, very popular and well regulated and quite formulated.
• 59:06
  Again, I don't mean that the experience is regular, the same yet regulates a very better time.
• 59:10
  It's still in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.
• 59:12
  Like it's
• 59:13
  700 miles off the coast.
• 59:14
  Exactly.
• 59:16
  that and then so I think most agents out there would have understood that the value is in the destination where these vessels can get you.
• 59:27
  And that's the biggest to me selling point is where you can go to and all the places you mentioned and then the experiences that you can have because Mexico, I did the Mexican
• 59:38
  thing.
• 59:38
  It was fun, but it was ship life and beach, ship life and beach.
• 59:44
  Whereas, you know, by many times to the Galapagos, it's like diving with whale sharks.
• 59:50
  It's seeing blue footed boobies like a foot from you who don't care you're there.
• 59:55
  You've been there.
• 59:56
  So you know what I'm talking about?
• 59:57
  because they see so yeah, and no one has hurt them.
• 1:00:02
  No one's hunted that they have no fear of humans.
• 1:00:04
  That's the Galapagos.
• 1:00:05
  Right.
• 1:00:05
  The Falklands is another one.
• 1:00:06
  Yeah, we haven't discussed right.
• 1:00:08
  Very
• 1:00:08
  California we haven't discussed.
• 1:00:10
  I'm heading there next month.
• 1:00:11
  the Gulf of California.
• 1:00:14
  Swimming with gray sharks, swimming with whale sharks, as you said, all of those sorts of experiences because the vessels in there are very small and there aren't tens of thousands
• 1:00:21
  of people a year.
• 1:00:22
  There are a few thousand.
• 1:00:24
  Okay, so to wrap this up, um and I know you've probably got this well versed, talk to our audience about either the differences between, or why expedition cruising?
• 1:00:36
  Like why should an agent be pushing that style of travel to a client versus a client who comes and saying I want to go to Mexico on a Norwegian or celebrity.
• 1:00:45
  think it's one of things you just mentioned recently.
• 1:00:48
  So first of all, the experience.
• 1:00:49
  I think more and more people are looking for experiences.
• 1:00:55
  I met a couple in the Galapagos, two grandparents from the UK, and they had three granddaughters with them, each from a different set of parents.
• 1:01:05
  And these girls ranged from 12 to 14, I would say.
• 1:01:08
  And I spoke to this English couple afterwards, and I said, this is amazing what you're doing.
• 1:01:13
  And they said, yeah, we thought, rather than give them a Fitbit or an iPad or a video game or something like that, we'd bring them here to have this experience.
• 1:01:23
  Hopefully some conservation gets pumped into their brains.
• 1:01:28
  And long after we're gone, when these girls are in their 70s, they're going to talk about the trip that they took to the Galapagos with their grandparents when they were 10 and and
• 1:01:38
  14 years old.
• 1:01:39
  ah So I think there's that.
• 1:01:42
  the experience to this remote location, this incredible part of the world that's not necessarily difficult to access, but you need to want to get there.
• 1:01:53
  Yeah.
• 1:01:55
  Not inexpensive for all the reasons we talked about, but good value when you when you consider it.
• 1:02:02
  So the experience getting there.
• 1:02:05
  uh And frankly, from an advisor's perspective, it's lucrative.
• 1:02:12
  Because of the price point that we're talking about, would say a Galapagos at an entry level is probably $4,000 $5,000 per person.
• 1:02:20
  Easy.
• 1:02:21
  You can go way up from there.
• 1:02:23
  you got a family of four to the Galapagos.
• 1:02:25
  It's maybe a $20,000 trip.
• 1:02:28
  So those are commission checks with commas in them.
• 1:02:31
  Yeah, and that's one of the things we used to push here, or still do, that if you can land a polar booking from a go away point of view, like the salespeople, that can be close to a
• 1:02:42
  target for a month.
• 1:02:43
  They are substantial bookings.
• 1:02:46
  again, polar one extreme, but as you say, any expedition cruise can be financially rewarding for the agent.
• 1:02:53
  And I know the counter argument to that is it's easier to find 10 people who are going to spend $1,500 on the big white ship example that you gave versus one person who's going to
• 1:03:04
  spend $15,000 on an Antarctica or high-end Galapagos.
• 1:03:08
  That's true.
• 1:03:10
  But they're out there.
• 1:03:11
  I promise you they're out there.
• 1:03:13
  I saw it at Cork.
• 1:03:14
  I saw it at Silver Sea and I see it now at Signature because it's booming.
• 1:03:19
  They're all building new ships.
• 1:03:21
  Viking just announced that they're building two new expedition ships to accompany the two they already have.
• 1:03:27
  So they're filling 382 guest ships in the Great Lakes, another region we've...
• 1:03:33
  Expedition cruising in the Great Lakes.
• 1:03:36
  it's...
• 1:03:36
  People...
• 1:03:37
  want smaller.
• 1:03:38
  There's a certain segment of the population who have the means, who have the time, who want smaller, who want slower, who want intimate and back to nature, back to learning and
• 1:03:54
  experience, as we said.
• 1:03:56
  Okay, so I'm gonna wrap this up with this question for you.
• 1:03:59
  I'm not sure if you have stats about this or you just may have uh personal experience through your jobs with Silver Sea and Clark.
• 1:04:08
  Do smaller vessels equate a smaller footprint sustainability wise?
• 1:04:14
  depends on the vessel.
• 1:04:15
  um
• 1:04:18
  guess what I'm getting at is by choosing an expedition cruise, if this is something that drives your booking decision or of selling tip for one of our agents out there, is booking
• 1:04:30
  expedition cruising a smaller footprint on the environment than a big white ship?
• 1:04:38
  OK.
• 1:04:39
  I'm no expert, but I would argue that yes, quickly touching on the polar regions again, I know that we've done a lot, but both IATO, that governing body that I mentioned, and IACO,
• 1:04:51
  which is its counterpart in the north, which is the Association of Expedition Cruise, excuse me, the Association of Arctic Expedition Cruise Operators, ah and the International
• 1:05:01
  Maritime Organization, the IMO,
• 1:05:04
  have dictated that to operate in the Arctic and to operate in the Antarctic, you must use low sulfur fuel.
• 1:05:10
  There's much cheaper bunker fuel that you can burn on these ships.
• 1:05:15
  And they would love to burn it because it's super cheap.
• 1:05:18
  But they have to so it's like getting regular gas, or the ultra premium gas.
• 1:05:24
  But you're being told you have to use the ultra premium gas, because its emissions are less harmful than the cheapy one.
• 1:05:33
  So there's there's that and there's more of that coming in.
• 1:05:36
  And back to the operators themselves.
• 1:05:39
  And I said early on some of the pioneers were lovers of these parts of the world and were conservationists at heart.
• 1:05:47
  Many of them still are.
• 1:05:48
  uh And the new vessels that are coming out are using all sorts of interesting new technology for propulsion.
• 1:05:57
  HX are one of the pioneers and using LNG, liquid natural gas.
• 1:06:02
  I didn't read into it but Aurora Expeditions, which is an Australian based company, they came out, I wouldn't say recently, but to me it was recently, their new ship, which is
• 1:06:10
  named after their founder and owner, Greg Mortimer.
• 1:06:13
  And I believe when I read that release that there was a whole lot of new technology to lessen the footprint again.
• 1:06:22
  There's a new company that's, I can't remember the name of them.
• 1:06:26
  No one's heard of them because they're brand new and they're not part of anybody else.
• 1:06:30
  But they are building a vessel, an expedition cruise vessel.
• 1:06:34
  I think it's in the 240 guest range that uh will be propelled by wind power.
• 1:06:43
  But it's not traditional sails.
• 1:06:44
  It's these newfangled sails that are sort of long and cylindrical.
• 1:06:49
  possibly metal or some sort of hybrid material.
• 1:06:52
  uh So all of that to say that they're looking into reducing their their ecological
• 1:06:59
  It's interesting how I'm a bit of a fan of the age of sail and discovery, know, Miguel and cook, all that type of thing.
• 1:07:05
  And we've gone from sail to to nuclear at one.
• 1:07:10
  And we're heading back.
• 1:07:12
  Yeah.
• 1:07:13
  OK, so again, we both believe, I guess also by the nature for the general, the size of the vessels, if not the vessel itself.
• 1:07:22
  Again, we're not saying they are all less.
• 1:07:27
  less footprint than the bigger white ships, we believe they would be.
• 1:07:30
  But just by the fact they have less people on board in itself is a smaller impact on where they're visiting.
• 1:07:36
  And many of them have initiatives of no plastic.
• 1:07:40
  Yeah, no straws, no plastic cutlery, no single use plastic in the bathrooms and in the showers with the little squeeze tubes of shampoo and conditioner that you then chuck away.
• 1:07:52
  Yeah.
• 1:07:53
  won't say all because I don't know for a fact, but many, many, many of them have moved away from that.
• 1:07:58
  We talked about propulsion systems, whether it's LNG, whether it's a hybrid electric, whether it's wind.
• 1:08:04
  And the other thing is Herdegutten last year won an award for uh their food waste because you can imagine, like a restaurant, a cruise ship has a bunch of food waste, especially
• 1:08:18
  when it's
• 1:08:19
  part of the package.
• 1:08:20
  It's prepaid and people aren't thinking about it they go to the buffet, imagine the big white chips and they load up their plate and how much of that actually gets eaten.
• 1:08:29
  Or maybe when they go back for seconds, how much of the second plate gets eaten.
• 1:08:32
  There's a fair amount of food waste.
• 1:08:34
  Herdegarten published something last year that they were down to, I forget how many grams per passenger per day of food waste.
• 1:08:50
  Some of them are taking the food waste and putting it in these digester, I don't want to call it a machine, but sort of a big bin and biogas off of that.
• 1:09:04
  So I know we've gone, we're trying to wrap it up, I've gone backwards to what we're talking about in terms of sustainability.
• 1:09:11
  But if there are any cruise operators that are gonna look at this and are gonna be at the forefront,
• 1:09:17
  of sustainability and reducing their overall footprint, not just in terms of emissions, but food waste, water consumption, freshwater production, all of that sort of thing, it's
• 1:09:29
  going to be Expedition Cruises.
• 1:09:30
  was going to be my question.
• 1:09:31
  So most expedition cruises will build their itineraries, their procedures, their philosophy with sustainability at the forefront of their thinking.
• 1:09:41
  OK, so on that note, think it's a nice positive way to finish it off.
• 1:09:45
  I'd to thank Carl for coming all the way up from downtown Toronto.
• 1:09:48
  It's the day we're recording this.
• 1:09:50
  It's gone from snow to what was sleet and ice pellets and it has been fun here in Toronto lately.
• 1:09:57
  oh
• 1:09:58
  they to say on the radio.
• 1:09:59
  think we'd both like to be on the ocean somewhere in warmer climes even down in Antarctica where we're in March at the end of the season down there So maybe might be better than
• 1:10:08
  here at the moment So like as always uh sorry, thank you Carl for your time really really appreciate it For our signature agents who may be listening in uh if you do want any
• 1:10:19
  training On the expedition adventure side of the signature product line.
• 1:10:24
  You can reach out to Carl.
• 1:10:25
  What's your email?
• 1:10:26
  Just call it signature
• 1:10:27
  Carl at sigtn.com.
• 1:10:32
  Okay, for our video watchers, I'll throw that up on the screen.
• 1:10:35
  Again, if you're not part of Signature, please don't reach out to Carl, because he can't really help you.
• 1:10:40
  He'd get into trouble for that.
• 1:10:42
  But you can reach out to GoA anytime for training.
• 1:10:44
  Our account managers are out there.
• 1:10:46
  They're all well-versed on expedition cruising as well, not as well as Carl, but they can definitely train you, guide you, advise you, and as always, thank you everyone out there
• 1:10:56
  for your time today.
• 1:10:57
  We really appreciate you giving us an hour or, I'm looking at my screen, an hour and 10 minutes of your time today.
• 1:11:02
  um Thank you, everyone out there.
• 1:11:05
  Until next time.
• 1:11:06
  you uh
• 1:11:22
  I'm