Latest / Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge / Legally Brunette: Lindsay Clancy & Caleb Flynn Updates

Transcript

Legally Brunette: Lindsay Clancy & Caleb Flynn Updates · Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Legally Brunette. I will be your host today,
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: Emily Simpson with... Shane. Hi, Shane.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Hi.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: How you doing?
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Good.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: How's life? All right. Okay.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: What crime we got today?
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Well, today was the first hearing since the mistrial in
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: the Lindsay Clancy case. So they had the hearing. We're
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: going to talk about it a little bit. We're going to.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: And the purpose of the hearing is?
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: You remember we talked about this previously, but today was
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: scheduled a status hearing in the Lindsay Clancy trial. I
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: know there were several motions that the defense had put
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: on that were before the court. One was, remember, he
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: wanted the case either he wanted it thrown out or
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: he wanted her acquitted because he was claiming double jeopardy,
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: things like that, which doesn't really apply, but we can
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: talk about that a little bit later. Also, I know
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: there was a motion before the court as far as
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: he wanted the holdout juror investigated, like look into this man.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: The thing is that.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: The whole, the each juror comes up with their own conclusion. Right.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: They all have the same set of facts, but everyone
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: can apply it however they see fit to the law.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: He wanted, and he's now pointing him out as like
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: being wrong.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Well, he wanted his cell phone record seized because I
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: think there was some.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: He said he was looking at his cell phone to
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: see if he was searching the case or something.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I think at this point.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Well, why not seize the other phones and see if
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: they were all crooked?
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: We were also anticipating that the Commonwealth would possibly be
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: able to say whether they were going to try to
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: offer a plea deal, whether they were going to retry her. Okay,
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: so we're going to get into that hearing. So... This
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: was today, September 29th of 2026. This is the first
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: hearing since the mistrial. At Clancy's first trial, her lawyer,
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: Kevin Reddington, never disputed that she caused her children's death.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: I think that's very important because we need to remember that.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: The first trial was never about culpability as far as
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: who caused the children's death. Right.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: Who was responsible.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: They stipulated to that. And really, the only issue at
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: the trial was whether she was acting... in a state
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: of mind where it was premeditated and calculated, or whether
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: she was not criminally responsible because she was going through
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: a state of psychosis. So that was the only issue
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: before the jury, not culpability as far as who did it.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: So he never disputed that she caused her children's deaths.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: This is in the first trial. His defense centered on
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: her mental state, and he argued that she was experiencing
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: postpartum psychosis and therefore could not be held criminally responsible.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: We know that there was a mistrial and that there
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: was a hung jury. Today's hearing marked a shift in tone.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you saw this, but I was
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: at the gym and I was going through.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: I did not see you at the gym.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: No, I know I didn't see you at the gym.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: I was at the gym. And while I was at
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: the gym, I knew that the hearing was today. So
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: I was going through my newsfeed.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Instagram.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Instagram. And now, Ruddington is accusing investigators of deciding Clancy
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: was guilty from the start and failing to do a
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: thorough investigation.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: He points out that she never confessed and questioned what
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: motive could she possibly have had and said Clancy does
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: not remember the killings. She only knows she strangled the
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: children because police told that to her.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's mentioning that now. Yeah. I mean, that seems
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: like if that's an issue from the beginning, it should
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: have been brought up in the beginning.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it makes you wonder. When he had all
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: the discovery and looked at everything and was meeting with
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: his client and all those things, they stipulated to the
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: fact that she had killed the three children. So obviously
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: that was his takeaway from everything that he was seeing.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: So now the question is everything that he's been seeing,
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know, on social media, online, all the people
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: that have been watching the trial and have been saying
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: it looks as if Patrick was more involved and all
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: the theories out there. And all the people claiming that
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: they didn't do a thorough investigation because this doesn't make
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: sense or the blood doesn't make sense or her core
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: body temperature doesn't make sense. Because I saw his argument
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: and he does touch on a lot of those things
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: as far as the blood in her bedroom. He made
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: an argument that when they found her and her core
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: body temperature was 80 degrees that she would have had
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: to have been out there for longer than two hours
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: for her body temperature to be at that point. Reddington
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: also was arguing that she had black socks on that
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: didn't have any blood on the bottoms of them. And
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: that if she had tried to cut her wrists and
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: cut her throat in that bedroom and then jumped out
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: of the window, that she would have slid around in
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: the blood and there would have been blood on her
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: socks and there was no blood. It's actually a good argument.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, it makes you go, well, that's interesting.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: But if it's a good argument, it could have been
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: brought up at a different time.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: I know, but that's what my question is. is that
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: all this new things that were coming out at trial
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: and these new theories and the at-home detectives that are
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: noticing things and pointing out things that made him, because
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: he did go on Good Morning America just recently and
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: said that Patrick Clancy had nothing to do with it.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: And remember? Oh, yeah. No, I didn't know that. He
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: did that? Yeah.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: He did several interviews where he said, like, these theories
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: are wild and they're not true. And Patrick had nothing
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: to do with it.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: So then if he's- Whoa. Well, wait a minute. Well,
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: if that's the case, then he would be backtracking.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but he's just saying.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Well, he's trying to cast doubt on her being the
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: one that committed the murders. Right. But he's not necessarily
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: pointing the finger at anyone else either.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Right. But he did previously in his little media stint
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: that he did after the mistrial say explicitly that Patrick
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: had nothing to do with it. So then now if
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: he's in the status hearing today and he's saying, look,
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: my client didn't even do it. Like, this doesn't make sense.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: Then it's like, well, then... Now you're saying that there's
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: a third party that came into the home or are
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: you making reference to it?
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: Well, you don't have to say who did it. You
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: just have to cast doubt that she did it. Right.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: Prosecutor Shanann Buckingham responded that the defense has never challenged
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: the evidence itself and that the case against Clancy is extensive.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: She dismissed the claim that the evidence doesn't prove Clancy
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: killed her children as laughable. Plymouth County District Attorney Timothy
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Cruz admits his office has not yet decided whether to
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: retry Clancy. The judge set another hearing for November 2nd
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: to deal with more requests, including one to throw out
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: the murder charges. So basically nothing got resolved in the
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: status hearing today. It just seems like there's.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: So the status is it's still a mess.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: It's still a mess. There's more motions before the court.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: The defense is asking for, you know, basically an acquittal
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: and to throw it out. The prosecution is saying... We
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: don't know what we're going to do yet. We need
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: more time. You know, they could offer lesser charges like manslaughter,
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: second degree murder.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: Kind of compromise on the issues. You know, this guy's,
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: you can't, you got to give the attorney credit, man.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: This guy's pulling out all the strings. All right. So
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: let's talk about, is Kevin Reddington legally allowed to claim
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: that there is not sufficient evidence to prove her guilt
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: when that was not his initial defense?
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: The answer is yes, he can.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: Well, you can have defenses that are conflicting. A lot
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: of times they'll have multiple defenses. Like, I didn't shoot him.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: If I shot him, it was in self-defense.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: And you're like, what? Did you or did you not?
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: But you can have... There's a term for that. You
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: can have defenses that overlap and conflict.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I guess... why I was questioning that is because
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: that was never presented in the original trial.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: No, that I get.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: It was just, we concede that she committed these murders.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: The only issue is her state of mind. Now that
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: we have a status hearing after the fact, she didn't
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: do it, Your Honor. How could she have done it?
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: They didn't prove it. There's no evidence. My client didn't
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: do it. So it's interesting that he's done a 180.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: I wonder what it was like when the light bulb
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: went off in his head like, wait a minute, what
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: if I just claim that she never did it?
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: You mean which TikTok it was that somebody sent him?
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's like, oh, that's a good point. Maybe
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: it wasn't her.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: At today's hearing, Reddington asked the judge to find Clancy
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: not guilty without holding a second trial. As part of that,
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: he said the evidence prosecutors presented did not even conclusively
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: prove that she had committed the killings. The prosecutor pushed
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: back hard and pointed out that the defense repeatedly agreed
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: at trial to physical evidence showing that she was responsible.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Reddington did not completely abandon his original argument, though. He
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: also argued the prosecution never proved beyond a reasonable doubt
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: that Clancy wasn't in a state of psychosis. So just
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: to reiterate that, The burden was on the Commonwealth.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: They have to prove all the elements of the case.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: They have to prove that she was acting.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: She does not have to prove anything, really. Right.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: She just has to.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: That's proved that she was sane, that she knew she
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: was committing the crimes.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Right, exactly.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: And fulfilled all the elements of the crime. Right.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: And then the threshold is reasonable doubt. So if the
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: jury has a reasonable doubt that she was acting with
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: clear and concise mental state.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Then that's when they would find her.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: And this is all to decide where she's going to
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: be for the rest of her life. I mean, pretty much.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: In a psychiatric hospital or prison.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Are you going to be in this bed or are
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: you going to be in that bed?
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So even though Reddington didn't completely abandon his original argument,
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: he's really making two arguments at once. He's saying, you
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: didn't prove she did it. And even if she did,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: you didn't prove she knew what she was doing, which
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: is what you were talking about with the self-defense, where
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: you were saying, I didn't shoot him. But if I
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: did shoot him, it was self-defense. So he's saying it's
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: the same cycle of argument.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: And if it wasn't self-defense, he deserved it. That would
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: be my third. And I acted accordingly.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: All right. So why is this okay to do? In
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: a critical... case, the prosecution has to prove everything. We
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: just talked about that. The burden to prove all the
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: elements is on the prosecution. The defendant doesn't have to
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: admit anything or prove anything. So a defense lawyer can
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: always ask the prosecution to prove any part of the case,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: even parts they hadn't argued before. The ethics rules for
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: lawyers specifically allow criminal defense attorneys to do this. On
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: this kind of motion, the judge views the evidence in
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: the light most favorable to the prosecution. And since the
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: defense already agreed to key evidence during the first trial,
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: it will be hard to convince the judge now that
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: there wasn't enough proof that she did it. You know,
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: I was thinking when Patrick Clancy did the interview on
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: 60 Minutes.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The 12-minute interview on 60 Minutes.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: The 12 or 14-minute interview on 60 Minutes, which, by
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: the way, apparently they do like four segments of. Usually, like,
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: I don't think there's ever a full 60 minute. I
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: just learned that because people told me that.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: It's just a program that's on for 60 minutes.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Was there ever a concise and precise moment when she said, yes,
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: I did this? Because I know the interviewer asked Patrick Clancy, like,
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: I think he asked something to the effect of, did
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: she ever apologize for it? Or did she ever tell
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: you about what happened? And all he said was, she
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: said it was like a dream. Remember that? It was
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: like a dream state that she was in. Because then
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: you told some story about how your dad told you
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: to write in journals whenever you had a dream.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: Write your dreams when you wake up. I don't know
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: if that's considered an admission thing.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Of guilt to say that.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: No, you're right. Cause that's like, if someone says, well,
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: you said that you did it and then it's like, no,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: I said it was like a dream. Right. Like, I
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: don't know if I did it or not.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: Right. So my question is, was there ever a clear
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: and concise statement that she make where she explicitly said
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: that she had done it? Because I believe he's saying
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: that she's never actually admitted to doing it. And that
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: is a very good answer. If that is the true
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: answer that she gave Patrick when he asked her about it,
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: if she said it was like a dream, that's a.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: That immediately to me says she was in and out, right?
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know anything legally. I don't know anything psychologically.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: But as a layperson, it's like she was in and out.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Like maybe she didn't really know what she was doing.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: Maybe she kind of did. I don't know.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: But I guess my point is, even if there is
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: a retrial... and that statement is brought in, it's not
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: a clear and concise statement or admission of guilt. You
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: can always make the argument that you were just, that
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: you didn't do it because it was like a dreamlike state.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. So if there is a second trial,
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: the defense may not have to agree to the same
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: evidence again, but changing their story in front of a
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: new jury could hurt their credibility. So that's the question too.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: If there is, if the prosecution does decide to retry her,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: then what is the defense strategy again? Does he go
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: with the original one?
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Probably a bench trial.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: A bench trial?
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: Probably, because when they go and do jury selection, it's
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: going to be like, okay, sir, do you have TikTok?
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, you do?
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, no. They're going to strike that juror. Then the
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: next one is like, do you have social media? Okay,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: never mind. I mean, everyone's seen this case.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know how you could find an impartial jury.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Everyone's seen all the craziness of it, too.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: All the misinformation, all the real information, all the inaccurate stuff.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. There's no way you can get an impartial jury
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: in this case at this point.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: I don't really think you got an impartial jury the
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: first time.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: Probably not. So this is one of several ways Reddington
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: is trying to stop a second trial from happening. He
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: has also argued that a retrial would violate double jeopardy
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: and asked the judge to look into the one holdout juror.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: You know, when you talk about double jeopardy, that's when
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: someone has been acquitted or convicted, right? And this has
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: not happened in this case. She was not acquitted and
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: she was not convicted. It's basically like the trial never happened.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: That's what a mistrial is. It's like, we went through
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: all of this.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: They do it all the time. Then they retry the case.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: Every time jury, they retry the case.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: So I don't really understand his double jeopardy argument because
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: there's no.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: He's just pulling out all the stops.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: All right. Um, so the holdout juror, he released a video.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Did you watch it? He actually gave
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: a video. He made it with his attorney. He made
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: a statement.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: Like a TikTok video? Was it edited really well?
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: 11 jurors were prepared to find Lindsay Clancy not guilty
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: by reason of insanity, but Michael P. Desronville disagreed. That's
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: the name of the holdout juror. In a video that
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: aired on Fox News Hannity on September 28th, Desronville asked
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: the public to shift its attention away from him and
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: toward the children, saying the focus belongs on those three angels.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: He also thanked his supporters and credited his Catholic faith
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: for helping him through the ordeal. He is reportedly staying
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: at an undisclosed location. It's sad that this man has
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: to stay.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: He's got to be on the run now.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Jury duty is a civic duty. And now we're getting
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: to the point where people aren't going to want to
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: be jurors. Why would you want to be on a
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: jury if afterwards, especially a huge case like this that
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: has a lot of notoriety, and then afterwards someone disagrees
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: with Or.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: How many jurors now are going to be like, okay,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: it's 1101. Fine. You can have my vote. I'll just
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: go with it. I don't want to be like that guy. Right.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: I don't want to get doxxed and harassed.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: And followed and stalked and my whole life put on
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: the news. Right.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't- You have to get an attorney.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: I don't understand why there isn't more protection for these jurors.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: No, it's not protection. It shouldn't be a need for
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: such protection. It's like, why aren't there people respecting it?
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Well, the problem is after the mistrial, several jurors went
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: out and just blabbed about everything. I don't understand why
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: there isn't some kind of gag order on these jurors
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: that they shouldn't be allowed to go and publicly discuss
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: what happened during jury deliberations, who said what. I know.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: And also, their interpretation of him is.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: I would say, Judgmental?
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it's based upon.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: They made it like he was difficult and wrong. Yeah.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: And that's based upon their frustration of whatever happened during
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: those deliberations that we're not privy to. So then all
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: you hear from them is how difficult he was, or
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: he wouldn't agree with them, or he admitted to reasonable doubt,
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: but then he didn't apply it. And again, I always
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: go back to, you can discuss... You can discuss reasonable doubt.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: You can talk about it. You can go through it
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: in your mind. You can have discussions about it. But
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, if he comes to,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: if he has all these discussions and talks about reasonable doubt,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: but then he comes to the conclusion that, hey, I
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: just can't go along with it. I don't agree. That's
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: what a jury is for. That's the point of a jury.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, the kids are dead.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, they are.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: She did say she did it.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: I guess. I don't know.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just saying it's not... I'm not holding
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: her as guilty. I'm just saying it's not far-fetched for
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: someone to come to that conclusion given the fact that
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: there are three victims. There's a lot of evidence supporting
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: the fact that she did it. And now it's just
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: a matter of whether she was sane or not when
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: she did it. And he's wrong for having... Come to
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: a different conclusion?
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: It's not black and white.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: It's not black and white. And that's why I always
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: think when you have a jury trial based upon someone's
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: mental state, there's no way to ever know that you've
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: come to the correct conclusion. We're basically trying to get
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: inside her mind and figure out what she was thinking
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: at the time.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: At that time. At that time only, too. Right.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: About a week earlier in a statement to News Nation,
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Desronville said his fellow jurors misunderstood his position. He claims,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: I did not have any doubts, adding that when he
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: tried to walk through other possible theories during deliberations, he
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: was repeatedly interrupted. In his view, the evidence showed Clancy
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: knew exactly what she was doing and had planned it.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: All right. So that's where he's at. I read there's
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: a GoFundMe for him that has around $ 375, 000, I think.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: For his hotel expenses. Yeah. Well, yeah, to pay for.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: And security.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Security. Yeah. Yeah. So, all right. We will continue to
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: follow the Lindsay Clancy case because obviously there's going to
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: be another status hearing. We will figure out what happened
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: with those motions that Reddington has before the court. We
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: will see eventually whether the Commonwealth decides to retry her.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: If they do decide to retry her, it will be
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: interesting to see what Reddington decides to do as far
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: as a defense... Will there be a plea deal? Will
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: they lessen the charges?
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: I predict at the next status hearing that it will
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: be continued to another status hearing.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: That's probably very true. Let's move on to Caleb Flynn. Okay,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Caleb Flynn, we talked about this before. He is on trial.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: He is the man in tip city, Ohio, who allegedly
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: claims that an intruder out of nowhere decided to come
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: into his home in the middle of the night and
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: shoot his wife in the head twice while she was sleeping.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: He happened to be sleeping in his children's bedroom. He claims.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Caleb Flynn's fate now rests in the hands of the jury.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you saw this, but there was
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: his defense. His defense didn't call any witnesses.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: His defense was like, seriously, I didn't do it. His defense.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's like, we're just not gonna.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: So he he what he couldn't poke holes in anything
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: right i mean. His defense was to play the quiet game.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: Just sit there and be polite.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: At the table.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Uh-huh.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: And mind your manners. Yes. And hope it all go away.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: And then when the prosecution was done with their case
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: in chief, and then it was the defense's turn to
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: put on their witnesses, they were like, we don't have
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: anything to say.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: He should have at least had like, he didn't do anything,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: did he?
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: No.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Did he question a witness? Did he put himself on
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: the stand? Did he advise himself not to testify?
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: He's not representing himself. He has attorneys.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: I thought he was representing himself.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: No, I knew that you were talking like this because
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: you thought he was representing himself. Oh my God.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Why is he?
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: This is not Tomas Kazowski.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that guy is an idiot.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: That is the plastic surgeon who represented himself. This is
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: Caleb Flynn. He has a whole defense team representing him.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: And he still doesn't have a defense?
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: No. All right.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Well, he might as well represent himself, save the money.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Might as well.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: So is this a trial for murder?
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Yes. We have done an episode on this.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: I don't understand. We do lots of murders. I don't
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: keep up.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: He's the guy from Dayton that was on American Idol
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: back in 2013.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: He was married to Ashley for a long time. They
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: live in tip city, Ohio. He claims back in February
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: that a man broke into his house in the middle
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: of the night and shot his wife in the head
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: twice while she was sleeping. And then he claims that
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: he was in the, he has two daughters. He claims
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: he was in their bedroom and then he found her
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: in the bed shot. She was dead. He calls nine
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: one one. And then remember he had a nine millimeter
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: revolver that he kept in his truck, but it's missing
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: out of his truck. And then there were some markings
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: on the side garage door that, Oh, yeah.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: But it wasn't consistent with the breaking. It was just
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: like he scratched the door jams.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: See, this is good. The viewers now are caught up.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: I'm not the only one that didn't know who Caleb is. Flynn.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure you're the only one who doesn't know.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: His story is a dime a dozen. There are so
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: many guys out there that killed their wives and claim
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: they didn't do anything or claim their wives just disappeared
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: and they didn't do anything. And their wife just wants
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: a new life and left everything, including their keys and
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: wallet and everything. And it's gone. All right.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about some of the crazy revelations that came
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: out in this trial. So the mistress, her name is
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Aaliyah Botner. She took the stand. The most dramatic testimony
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: came from Aaliyah Botner, who is 24 years old, and
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: she had been having an affair with Flynn for about
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: a year and a half.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: How old's Flynn?
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: He's in his 40s, I believe, like early 40s. She
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: testified that she believes he committed the murder. Also, they
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: met in church. He's like a pastor, and they're in this.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: See, again, dime a dozen. It reminds me very.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Much of the J.P. Miller and Micah Miller.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Very much so.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Reading from over 100,000 texts, she and Caleb Flynn repeatedly
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: talked about how much they hated his wife. You know,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: the prosecution had her... Oh, yeah.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: This is the guy that constantly just incriminated himself, like,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: nonstop before committing the murder. Yes.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: And then talk about trial by public humiliation.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: She was on the stand testifying for the prosecution and
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: they made her read the text.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: What were the texts saying?
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Well, they used a derogatory nickname for his wife. They
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: called her douche. And Caleb fantasized about killing her.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: That's their code name for her? Douche?
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: Douche.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Like the douche is home?
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: I gotta go?
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Like douche is here. Yeah. I can't stand douche. I
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: hope douche dies. Yeah. Caleb fantasized about killing her with
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Aaliyah also saying she wanted to kill her in this
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: text message. She wrote in a text message, I want
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: to kill her, Caleb. Caleb replied, that makes two of us.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: And she had to read this. Like she's reading these
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: texts on the stand.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Did she have any charges against her? No.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Later, Aaliyah would say, I'm not asking that you take
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: her life, obviously, because that's not what you should do. Wink, wink.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: And I know you actually wouldn't, but to make the
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: divorce happen, it would change everything. The text that got
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: the most attention was from August of 2025. Flynn allegedly
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: wrote that he had stayed up until 4 a.m. crying,
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: literally thinking of ways to kill her and not go
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: to jail.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: So a lot of the text messages have to do
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: with like, I want her dead. I wish she was dead.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: How much he hates her.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: I'm going to kill her. Yeah.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: He sent a text to his mistress, Aaliyah, saying that
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: he stayed up until 4 a.m. crying, literally thinking of
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: ways to kill her and not go to jail. Just
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: hours before.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: That's a stressful situation I'll never be in.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: Well, I would hope not.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Like, I'm stressed that I might go to jail because
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: I plan to kill my wife.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Don't kill your wife. You won't have the stress of
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: murder charges.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: You know, we always talk about why divorce isn't an option.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: It is an option. But why people on these cases
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: that we talk about, why they skip divorce. When you
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: have a plan, right? You write out a plan. Like, first,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: let's work on the marriage. Plan one. Plan two. Okay,
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: we worked on the marriage, but it's not working. So divorce.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Three, murder.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: I don't understand why everybody goes, they skip the divorce
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: part and they just go straight to murder. But all
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: I can think is, I know there was a lot
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: of things that came out as far as her family
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: And I guess he worked for her family and made
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: about $ 250, 000 a year working for her family.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: He didn't want to lose his job.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: And then received some kind of... You know, they had said...
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: I think they were... I don't think they were super wealthy,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: but I think that they had probably built up a nice.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Upper middle class.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, retirement. And they had said... This is Ashley's father
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: said on the stand that... They wanted to start distributing
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: and helping their kids while they were alive. They didn't
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: want to wait until they were dead, but they inherited something.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: So they were kind of distributing money to them monthly.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: So you probably didn't want to disrupt that by divorcing her.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Just hours before Ashley was killed, Caleb wrote to Aaliyah, quote,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: I choose you. I'm free. Actions will come tomorrow, February 16th,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: a day I'll never forget. Caleb's 911 call came in
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: about 2.30 a.m., These texts had been deleted from Flynn's
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: phone and Botner, this is the mistress, admitted that she
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: initially lied to the FBI about the affair. She also
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: said she took his plans as a plan to divorce
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: and not a plan to kill his wife. I don't
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: know if you saw this part, but Caleb also generated
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: love songs for Aaliyah using AI. They played two of
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: the songs in the courtroom. Here's just a glimpse of
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: the lyrics. First of all, did you see this? The
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: prosecution plays these love songs that he made for his mistress.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: They don't just play like a few verses. They play
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: the entire song.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: But it's all digital. Like he didn't sing it. He
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: just created a song?
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he created it. It's probably his words, right?
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: What he wants to say to her and then AI
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: generates some kind of song.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: But we're not watching like a karaoke video of him.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: No.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: We're just watching audio that was created through some app.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, but can you imagine? I watched this. I had
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: the most severe secondhand embarrassment.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: Well, what's it like?
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Because they're just sitting in court, and they play this
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: song that he wrote for his mistress, and he's just
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: sitting there. It's so cringy.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: Well, what's it like? What kind of song is it like?
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to read some of the lyrics. You
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: can tell me what you think. But the camera pans
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: the audience to make sure they get all of their reactions.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: And everyone sitting there is just trying not to laugh,
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: not looking up. I mean, it's just, I cannot imagine.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: Talk about embarrassment.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, not only does this woman- So all these
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: texts they have to read.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Right. She has to read these texts on the stand.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, she's publicly humiliated. Then she has to sit
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: in court while they play this song and everybody's like snickering.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: So this is like a new version of a mixtape?
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, now you make AI songs.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Okay, here's some of the lyrics. The first time I
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: saw you, the room disappeared. Love at first sight, even
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: though I was scared. But age never mattered when it
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: was you and me. Obviously, he's a lot older than
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: she is.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: It didn't matter to him. It mattered to him. He
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: wanted her. She was younger.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: She was younger. We were proof that forever was something
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: you feel, not see. You were my meaning, my love,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: my best friend.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: We just need to kill that douche.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Douche. Life has no meaning. It's come to an end.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: If love only comes once, then I know it was you.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: Life has no meaning?
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: What? I don't know. Life has no meaning. It's come
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: to an end.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: What has come to an end?
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Life. I don't know. I don't know.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: It's a song.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know. What's going on here?
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: What are they trying to demonstrate? Just that he's his
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: motive and bears her and motive and stuff like that.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: You know, I always wonder that too. I mean, the prosecution,
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: I think there's just.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Where the jury out like this guy's a douchebag himself.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: They're just going to throw out. The prosecution is going
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: to throw out as much as they possibly can on
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: on their case in chief to make this guy just
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: look like the worst human ever, right? And for the
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: jury to have to sit there and listen to this
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: horrific AI.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: That's a crime right there.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: That's a crime, right?
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: Like 10 years for these AI songs.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: All right. There were also apps that were deleted right
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: before the killing. So a state crime analyst testified about
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: what Flynn's phone showed in the window right before the crime.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: She said one app was deleted at 1.01 a.m. on
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: February 16th and Instagram was deleted at 1.02 a.m.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: What's his intent in deleting apps?
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: Well, I understand why he would have deleted Instagram, because
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: I bet they DMed. They had many methods of communication.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: I think they talked on WhatsApp.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, he just removed it from his phone. It's
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: still an Instagram space somewhere. Do you think this guy
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: is clever enough? He also texted 107,000 texts. Oh, it
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: makes 250 a year. That's pretty good.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: So his Instagram was deleted at 1.02 a.m., She also
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: found signs of a secret account. She analyzed Instagram data
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: for Caleb Ashley Aaliyah and an account Aaliyah says was
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: a fake one Caleb made and testified that Caleb had
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: Ashley blocked on Instagram. He must have made a fake
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: account on Instagram then blocked his wife from the fake
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: account and then used that fake account to talk to Aaliyah. Anyway,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: he's deleting these apps right before the murder. There was
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: also a garage door with no signs of force. We
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: talked about this before. Flynn's story was that an intruder
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: came through the garage, took the handgun out of his
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: truck and shot Ashley. The garage side door itself was
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: brought into court for the jury. It's handled. No, it's
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: handle had been broken off, but a sheriff's Lieutenant testified.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: It had no pry or force marks consistent with a
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: break in. It looks like one of those after the
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: fact kind of things where you're like running around, you know,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: and you're like, I must make it look like an
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: intruder came through this door. I'll just make some marks
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: and break the handle off.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: It wasn't a true break in. Because see, they'd be
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: smart if they actually just broke in.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: After he killed her, can't find any killer. So she's
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: out of the way. And then you go and you
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: break the door down.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: You go out the front door.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: You go around to the side.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: And you break it open.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: And you break in through the side garage door. Yeah.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: Flynn said he was lying next to his youngest daughter
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: when he heard the shots. Photos showed the lower bunk
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: was so crowded with stuffed animals that a state agent
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: said there was no room for anyone except maybe a
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: small child. Aaliyah also testified that Flynn told her he
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: had been on the couch when he heard the gunshot.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: So there we've got conflicting stories already.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: How old is this daughter that he says he's with?
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't know. I don't know if they've
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: ever released information about the minor children. Ashley's father, Todd Smith,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: testified that the family's golden doodles always barked when anyone
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: approached the house. He told the jury he couldn't understand
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: how an intruder could get in, shoot his daughter, and
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: leave without those dogs going bananas. Separately, a police dog
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: handler testified that he saw no footprints leaving the area
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: in the wet ground, and when his dog was told
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: to follow human scent from the garage door, it went
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: straight back into the house. I like the dog. He's like,
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: follow the scent. And the dog's like, I'm going to
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: go back in the house.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: It's late.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: Um, Flynn's police interview and the flag salesman. So jurors
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: watch Flynn's recorded police interviews. I watched some of them too.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: It's he's hard to watch where he pointed investigators toward
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: a stranger. He described a man with long hair who
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: acted awkwardly, wore no company logo and gave Ashley what
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: Flynn called a weird sales pitch about an American flag
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: the day before she was killed. So I guess during
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: this police interview, Caleb Flynn describes the shooting as But
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: then when he was interviewed by the detective, the detective
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: then testified that Flynn said that he froze for four
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: to six seconds before running to the master bedroom. But
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: then I believe there was also another like four minutes
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: before he ends up calling 911. The question is, and
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: I wonder this, did he change his clothes? Because when
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: you get blowback splatter on you and what happened to
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: those clothes? Because if you shot someone in the back
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: of the head.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Did he put a pillow over her?
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: You know, was it through the sheets? I don't know. So.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: And also, I guess.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: It was a nine millimeter, you said?
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: Nine millimeter. Also, they should have tested his hands for
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: gunshot residue just as a precaution.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know what their practice is, though.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sure. They should always. Right. Right. You have a
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: dead body in a house.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: And someone reports it. Yeah. They should certainly.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Automatically, even if it's to rule them out. Right. Right.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Check for gunshot residue.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Exactly. So I don't know if that was, that should
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: be protocol.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: Maybe they did.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: Ashley's sister testified that Flynn worked for his father-in-law's flooring
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: and furnishing business and earned about $ 200, 000 a year. His
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: text also showed he was worried about losing full custody
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: of his two daughters. Prosecutors argued that a divorce would
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: put his job, his kids, and his reputation at risk,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: but an intruder story would not. I love how when
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: you weigh the benefits, the risk and benefit factor, and
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: you're like, well, if we get divorced, my job's on
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: the line. The custody of the kids is on the line.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: Don't know exactly what the custody share would be. My
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: 401k in retirement, I'm going to have to give that
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: stuff up.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: So then you're like, but if I get away with.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: Murder, I get to keep all my money. I get
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: full custody of the kids. I don't have to pay
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: child support. And my reputation.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: And I can sleep at night.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: Is still intact. Right. I'm going to go with murder. Yeah.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: It makes, I don't understand that type of human, but
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: there are many of them because we just keep talking
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: about them. All right. So the defense rests without calling
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: a single witness. The prosecution called 40 witnesses over seven
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: days of testimony while the defense called none. The defense's
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: strategy has been to attack gaps in the state's case.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: The gun Flynn said he kept in his truck center
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: console has never been found and There was no eyewitness
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: to the shooting, and testimony showed.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: That's why they couldn't call any witnesses. What are they
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: going to say?
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And testimony showed no gunshot residue was found on Flynn.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: There we go.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I wonder if they tested it that night or later.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know. He had gloves on. He washed his hands.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: I don't know. He got rid of the gun somehow.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: So, you know, and here's the thing. That's pretty savvy.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: Whatever he did to get rid of the weapon, because
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: they've never been able to find the weapon. So he
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: had to have gotten rid of that weapon... Which.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: You're going to say soon after?
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: Soon after.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Because he waits four minutes, he calls 911, then they come.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: So there's a very small gap of time that he
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: has to be able to get rid of that weapon.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: He could have hit it and then hit it later.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: You know, hit it somewhere.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: It always surprises me when someone is really smart in
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: one area.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Oh, I see.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Like where he's able to get.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: He was so savvy in hiding the gun and succeeding
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: in that.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: Yet he blabs all over the internet.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: And 107,000 text messages with him and a mistress. Because....
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: Criminals feel that their phone is a safe space and
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: there's an expectation of privacy that should be respected on
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: their phone.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: I wonder if anyone's ever made that argument that your
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: phone should have an expectation of privacy because there isn't.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: They confiscate your phone immediately when you're.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty quickly done now.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: They just take it. They take it from you. They
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: do a forensic analysis on it.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: So there is no expectation of privacy, but you know,
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: really the argument.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Well, there's no expectation of privacy on your phone when
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: you're being investigated for first degree murder. I mean, then
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: they're going to yank it from you. Yeah. You can't
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: do it for fishing expeditions, but you can do it
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: if you believe it will reasonably lead to evidence. Yeah.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: But then even if you weren't a person of interest,
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: but they wanted to get your phone, and then you said, no,
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: you can't have my phone, then you just create... a
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: scenario where why do you not want to give up
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: your phone? So then they're going to figure out a
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: way to get your phone anyway.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: We were talking about the other day. It's like, you
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: can search everywhere, but this trunk, it's like, now I
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: want to search the trunk. I don't want to search
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: anywhere else.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: So on cross-examination, the crime analysts agreed that she picked
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: out texts using keywords about wanting Ashley dead or hating
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: her and that the selected messages didn't include the full conversations.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: So that was when the defense, so basically the defense
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: puts no witnesses on, but they did try to poke
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: holes in the prosecution's theory, basically by pointing out that
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: they never found the weapon. So, you know, maybe it
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: was somebody else that took the weapon with them. That
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: would be a good book.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: You could do a, could you do a book of
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: text messages from murders? Yeah.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: You want to do like a coffee table book? Right.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: So you're like, you're like, holy crap, they really just
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: said all this in a text. And then it could
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: also be web search histories.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: No, I was going to say.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: So then you could have a chapter of like, hey,
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: they search this and they text this. Yeah.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: I was going to say the web searches is interesting.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: You could do a coffee table book of just cases
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: and their web searches. Right. That would be good. Yeah.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: You just put a little intro at the top about
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: the case.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: And maybe like the different murder kits that people put together.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: I do like the murder kits. Yeah.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: You have your standard Walmart murder kit. They're a little
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: more sophisticated now with Amazon.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Amazon murder wish list.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: It's like, can you imagine you create one?
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: Probably going off on a tangent. And it's like, your
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: wish list, and it's like, rope, duct tape, knife. Blindfold.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: What are those zip ties?
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Cable ties.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: Cable ties, zip ties. Bleach.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Bleach.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: The defense's core pitch, and attorney Emily Smith's words, was
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: that a man can fail as a husband without being
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: a murderer. That's the last thing she wants to leave
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: the jury with, right? He can be a piece of crap,
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: but it doesn't mean.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: He could say he wanted to murder his wife 100,000 times,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: but don't you dare think that means he did it. Right.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Just because he's cheating on her with a mistress doesn't
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: mean that he's a murderer. Right. You know, his defense attorney,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: so they did closing arguments, and he was basically trying
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: to put it back on Aaliyah, saying like, she's the
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: one that has the motive. She's the one that lied
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: to the FBI. She's the one... I mean, she hasn't
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: been charged with anything, but obviously he's trying to at
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: least put some.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: Deflect from his own client.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Deflect from his client and put some reasonable doubt into
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: the jury's minds that it possibly could have been her
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: in some way. And so do we really know where
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: she was that night? Did they really investigate her? I
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: don't know. I don't think that she did it.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: Any predictions on.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: Oh, that jury's not... They're just gonna sit there and
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: be like, oh.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: They're just gonna try to hold out till like an
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: extra lunch.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: They're gonna be like, should we... Well, let's just order lunch.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: And then everybody look at your Instagram accounts and then...
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: they're gonna go back in i mean they didn't even
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: put on in defense yeah what are you gonna deliberate
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: i don't know All right, thanks guys for listening till
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: death do us part and listening to our Lindsay Clancy updates.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: As always, please follow Legally Brunette wherever you listen to podcasts.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: If you have any case recommendations, please find me on Instagram.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: I love the feedback and I love the case recommendations.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: I've actually, I screenshot when people send me case recommendations,
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: I screenshot it, keep it on my phone. And a
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: lot of times I'll go back and look and Google
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: the case. And a lot, they give, the audience out
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: there gives a lot of really good recommendations sometimes. So
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: thank you guys for that. Thank you for listening. Be
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  Speaker 2: sure to tell your friends and family about Legally Brunette.