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IFH 834: How to Build a Screenwriting Career That Actually Lasts with Bob Saenz · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the ifh podcast Network. For more
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  Speaker 1: amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork dot com.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Indie Film Muscle Podcast, Episode number eight
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: thirty four. Cinema Should Make You Forget You're sitting in
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: a theater, Roman Polanski.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: the film biz.
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Huscle Podcast.
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: I am your humble.
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  Speaker 2: Host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of
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  Speaker 2: the Film Entrepreneur How to turn your independent film into
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• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: On this episode, I have with me a actor and
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: screenwriter who has written Big Budge feature films. He has
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: written indie films, he has pitched a Hallmark and he
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: has also acted in indie films. And he's also active
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: in David Vincher Zodiac, which I didn't even know as
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: we find out about this during this interview. He did
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: the voice of a video game that I loved as
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: a kid, Safe and Filter. Does anybody remember Safe and Filter?
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: He was the voice of the bad guy. I didn't
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: even realize until I saw as IMDb. I played the
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: hell out of that game as a kid growing up,
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: and we talk all about that as well with guest
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: Bob Signs. Hey Bob, thanks a lot for coming on
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: the show. You're welcome. You know again, you're person I've
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: actually wanted to have on here for a while. The
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: you know, the reason being, you're a working screenwriter. You're
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: out there actually doing it. You're always posting great advice.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: So you know, I wanted to ask about your whole career.
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: And there's one thing I have to ask about right
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: off the bat. I see on here on your in
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: your acting credits. Actually, so when I'm gonna talk about writing,
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: you actually did voices for the game Sife and Filter
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: and Safe and Filter three.
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: I did voices really for all the Stipe and Filter games.
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: I was the main bad guy. I was the man
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: in the shadows.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: Oh that's it, Bob. I'm blown away. I think we
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: have to end the whole conversation right now. I don't
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: think we can peek on this.
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: I sat in the Sony studios in Foster City, California
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: with a big gold microphone and did that deep low
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: voice for that guy who was the who ended up
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: being the Senator who was also the man in the shadows.
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: It was really fun. And what was great about it
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: is they actually paid me extra to stay an hour
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: and make death sounds for people who got shot and
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: got lit on fire and fell off twips and stuff.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: You know, it's just funny because I remember playing Siphon
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: Filter in when did that come out two thousand? I think, oh, maybe, yeah,
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: I remember playing that, and I just now it's just
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: it is amazing how small this world has become, because
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: now I remember I can remember everything about that first game,
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: especially that first game, and the fact that I saw
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: on your IMDb that you did voices for it. I
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: was like, I got to talk to Bob about this.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: I just have to.
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: I still get every once in a while the random
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: email from somebody who was a Seifen Filder fan and
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: there's actually some Siphon Filder, you know, group that gets
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: together and plays or something and they have a magazine
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: or something and had me wanted to interview me for it.
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: It was it was really funny. It's it's like the
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: video game that Wouldn't Die.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's just a testament to how popular the
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: game was because again, that first one especially, I always
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: remember that first one was was just phenomenal, and I
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: remember playing that and just being blown away. Actually I
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: remember it coming. You know what, the first time I
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: heard about it, I ordered a pizza from Pizza Hut
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: and they had a free disc glued to the top
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: of the box for the original PlayStation and I actually
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: remember it going, oh, wow, this is pretty cool, and
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: I popped it in and that's how I played for
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: the first time.
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: I've never heard that before. That's pretty cool.
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's actually it was.
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: Wow. Yeah, no, it's It was a fun It was
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: a fun gig, and it was really in The people
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: were so nice, the guys that produced the game, the
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: guy who was the voice director, the whole the whole
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: thing was just first class and it was really fun.
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: So, Bob, just to sort of continue with this, you know,
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: when you moved out to la it was.
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: One of your originals. I don't, well, let's get let's
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: get something really straight. I don't live in La.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: Oh, you don't. Where do you live?
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: I live in San Francisco. I have I have, I
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: have had this career totally out of LA.
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: So so let me ask you, Bob, are the rents
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: is been in San Francisco as bad as they say?
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, my my, They're worse up here than they
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: are in LA. Up Here is like the the worst
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: rents I think in the country except for like Manhattan.
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: The My daughter as a friend who has a two
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: bedroom apartment in Mountain View right in their Google that's
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: like forty two hundred dollars a month.
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: Wow, you know, I mean, I just I have a
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: friend who also lives out there. He was actually on
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: this podcast episode four, I think David Heule, and he
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: lives out in San Francisco, and I mean he and
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: I were talking one day and he was just saying
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: how bad the rents were out there in San Francisco.
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: So more power to you, Bob, More power to you
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: because you're actually, you know, living in you know, in
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: making your career.
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: I'm I'm I'm very fortunate. I have a house. So
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: it's that's part of the reason I don't also go
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: to LA. I also don't go to LA because I'm
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: happy where I am and I'm four hours away, and
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: I've never missed an appointment. And and I can come
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: up here and work out of my house and go
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: down there when I have to.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: So do you just plan like a long drive that day?
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: Do you just take just pull, get in your car
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: and drive there.
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: I leave at five in the morning, I get there
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: about at the latest, about ten thirty in the morning,
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: and I can get a whole lot of work done.
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: And I usually stay for four or five days. This
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: time I stayed for five days. Last sime'snay for five
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: days because I had a bunch of meetings and then
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: we had two days of shooting of pickups and and
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: and VFX and EFX on one of my movies.
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: Oh that's gay. And again it's cool you live so close.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: And because I've always wondered if if you do live
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: semi close to LA like you, do you how do
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: you actually get out there? Because sometimes I've heard people say, listen,
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: I get in with a bunch of other people, we
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: all go down, you know, they or they do something other,
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: some other means of transportation to get there. But you know,
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: it's just good that you live so close and so
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: sort of taking a step back. The reason I was asking,
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: this was when you decided to move out to California,
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: you know, because you were Now you're in San Francisco.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: You know, did you go out there with the original
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: goal of being an actor?
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  Speaker 4: Oh? I was born in California, so I've always been here,
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: but I've always wanted to be an actor from women
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: I was a little kid, and I was from the
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: time I was about sixteen years old. I was doing
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: like professional plays and musicals around San Francisco in the
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: Bay Area and was in the midst of a long
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: run in a show called The Fantastics when I met
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: my wife, and it was one of those things where
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: you say, do I want to spend the rest of
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: my life with this woman or do I want to
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: be a poor actor? And I decided I would spend
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: the rest of my life with my wife. We've been
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: married forty two years. And so when I was about
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: four years old, after I had worked in a real job,
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: but a good job, but a real job, I went
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: to her and said, you know what, we got money
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: in the bank, and it looks like the company I'm
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: working for is not going to be around much longer
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: because they've been bought by somebody else and they're screwing them.
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: I think I want to be an actor again. And
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: when I picked her up off the floor, she said okay,
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: and I decided. Then people told me you can't do it.
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: You're not You're living San Francisco. You can't be a
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: professional actor at your age. You can't. You know, you
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: can't just change. And I said why not? And I've
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: spent my life saying why not to people.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: So it all worked. I got my SAG card in
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: a movie called Angels in the Outfield with one line
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: try throwing it over the plate. And I just marketed
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: myself and was relentless in my pursuit and ended up
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: with a with a recurring, very very very small recurring
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: role on a TV series. That's TV series that shot
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: up here called Nash Bridges with Don Johnson and Cheech Marin.
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: And I used my time my six years on that
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: TV show to work on my writing and get it
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: out to some of the producers on that show, and
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: it kind of all snowballed from there.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: So when you were reading the script for Nash Bridges,
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: like each week you know, you would get the script
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: for the latest episode, would you sort of analyze it
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: in different ways, Bob, Like, would you sort of put
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: on like a writer's hat and say, you know, I
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: wonder how.
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: I would I said to myself, I can write better
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: than this crab and and and which was funny because
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: guys like Damon Lindwaff were writing for Nash at the time.
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: But but I I wrote an episode in Nash. That's
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: what I did, and they didn't buy it. But I
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: got a lot of encouragements from some people, and that's
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: that's what spurred me on to write my first spec feature,
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: which I optioned. So it's, uh, it's been a weird trip.
• 11:44
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: That kind of reminds me of Mike Beerman when I
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: when I had him on the show a few episodes ago.
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: You know, he actually said when he took his daughter
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: out to those auditions, he actually got the script and said, hell,
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: I can write better than this. And you know, we're
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: both a part of that of that writer's group on Facebook.
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: But it just it's just funny to me because you know, whenever,
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: because I mean, I said the same thing to myself. Honestly, Bob,
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: I said to myself, Hey, I can write or make
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: a movie better than this, and that's sort of what
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: sparked it. And then I got then it was proved
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: to me, was oh no I can't. I just sort
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: of but no, I'm just joking around.
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: But what's funny, what's funny about the whole thing was
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: is I've been a lot of movies and I've I've
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: done a lot of just small parts and things, but
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: I've really enjoyed myself. And there are a lot of
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: movies I've been in that aren't even on the IMDb thing.
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: I don't even I don't add things to IMDb. If
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: if they're on there, it's not because I put them there,
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: it's because somebody else did. But I've been a lot
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: of movies and I've done, you know, some some pretty
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: fun acting jobs. But I found out i started writing
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: that I was a way better writer than I was
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: an actor. I have a very small range right now,
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: I'm holding my hands about three inches apart, and that's
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: you know, that's basically my range as an actor. And
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: so I found out I was much better rider. So
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: I'm enjoying that a lot more.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: So I have to ask when you were on the
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: set of Nash Bridges. Was Don Johnson a cool as
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: cool of a guy as he seems.
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: Don Johnson has a reputation and sometimes I think unfairly
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: of being I'm not great guy. And all I can
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: do is all I can go by is my personal
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: experiences with him. And he was terrific to me, completely
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: terrific to me. And I was there for six years
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: and couldn't have been treated better. I came away from
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: that show with a lot of really good lifelong friends,
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: including you know we don't talk now, but including Don.
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: If I ran into him, I'm sure we would be
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: just fine. It was great experience. I was glad it
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: was over after six years because I wanted to move
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: on and do some writing. But it was a great experience.
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't have traded it for anything. I called it
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: the Don Johnson Film School. I learned everything I could
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: learn on that set. It was great.
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: I like that name, Bob, the Don Johnson Film School.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: I like that a lot. That seems like a hell
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: of a film school.
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: It was. It was great. I went to him, i
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: think in the second season, and I said, look, I
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: want to learn everything I can about how this is
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: all done. So when I'm not working but I'm here,
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: can I hang around on set and watch and see
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: how each department does what they do. And he made
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: a little flann of the cross and said, bless you.
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: Of course you can, and and said that's how I learned.
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: So I did. I at one point, I learned about
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: why they used you know, which lens they use. And
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: I got to carry around the steady cam one afternoon,
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: and I learned from the sound eyes, one of the
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: great sound guys ever. And I learned about lighting and
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: what the grips do, and electrical and you name it.
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: I just and props and everybody. I got to know
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: and learned from them how they did what they did.
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: It was an unbelievably great experience and it's really helped
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: me as a writer.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: And that's something I wanted to actually follow up with Bob,
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: is when you're on set like that and you know
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: you're you're you're, you know, seeing everything through the lens
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: of an actor. How has that helped your writing when
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: you're writing characters?
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: Oh a ton, It helps a ton, because I've I've
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: been on the other side of getting scripts where people
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: don't sound real like you get dialogue but you know
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: was written without anybody ever saying it out loud, and
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: and you you know, it's it's helped me not as
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: much with character, because I'm I really love to develop
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: character and my my scripts, but it's helped me a
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: lot with dialogue, a lot in having dialogue sound as
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: real and natural as it can be. It also helped by,
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: you know, by learning how to do exposition rather than
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: you know, having you know, on the nose dialogue drives
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: me nuts. So it's it's it's really it did. Did
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: you'd answer your question? Yes?
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: That so because you know, I imagine when you're when
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: you're actually sitting down and actually writing a screenplay and
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: you're fleshing out these characters. I you know, we all
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: sort of imagine an actor playing that role. Uh, and
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: I imagine you when you're when you're writing this that
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: you're probably saying, well, what is the actor going to
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: be doing while they're saying this stuff? Should they be
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: sitting there? Hopefully this isn't sort of like what they
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: call a floating head scene, you know what I mean,
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: there's I'm sure because you're, you know, you have that
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: acting background, you could sort of take that a step
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: further and say, well, you know, I I know what
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: actors are going to say in a scene like this.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: They want to be moving around or they want to
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: be doing something.
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: I do it really, it sounds so funny, it's gonna
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: sound really funny. But I don't think about actors all
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: that I write. I think about servicing the story. To me,
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: everything is about story. I've talked to so many producers
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: and worked with so many people. Now, after all the
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: movies that I have been more than fortunate enough to
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: have produced, that the only thing that matters, especially in
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: a spec script, is story. They want to know if
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: they've got a serviceable story that people are going to
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: want to see. And that's when I write It's back.
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: That's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for something that
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: services the story. Yes, I I if the character in
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: that story needs to move around during a scene rather
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: than just sit. Yes, And I think about those things. Absolutely.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: What would the character be doing in this situation? They're
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: not going to be ye floating hints? Absolutely, But I'm
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: I'm a really really story guy and and I never
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: think of I never imagine any actor playing a role
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: I want to write roles that actors want to play
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: and that that to me is more important.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: So so, Bob, when you actually started to write your
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: own screenplays, did you grab any sort of books or
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: anything that to sort of use as like a sort
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: of a guide or anything when you when you when
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: you started writing?
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: No, I didn't. I've never read a screenwriting book. I
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: know it's an announcement of most people, and they think, wow.
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: I read lots of scripts, and I looked for scripts
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: for for films that I loved and thought, how did
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: they do it? I read anybody's friends and neighbors or
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: whoever had a script, and read scripts to look at
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: and and most of them are bad. And looked at
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: bad scripts and thought, how can I keep from doing
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: some of these things? And I I just wrote. The
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: only thing I did was get myself a copy of
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: final drafts and to so that the so that the
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: formatting was correct. But otherwise no, I didn't. I didn't
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: read any screenwriting books.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: Well that's amazing, because usually, you know, you do you
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: do something like you go out, maybe you buy uh,
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: you know, you know the big three that people usually buy.
• 19:26
  Speaker 6: You know, well, yes, Sidfield and and the the the
• 19:32
  Speaker 6: awful Save the Cad and and whatever else you know,
• 19:37
  Speaker 6: the Hero's Journey I guess, and and no I didn't, but.
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: I've seen Save the Cat writ more scripts than you
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: can imagine.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, So so actually you know that that it's
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: actually interesting because you know, whenever I'm in a screenwriters
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: group and somebody brings up at the Hero's Journey or
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: Saved the Cat or what have you, I usually tell
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: them just to sort of put that aside, because I,
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: just like you said, it usually wrecks a lot more scripts.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: The reason being is they're always trying to force these
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: things to happen that aren't organically there. If you know
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: what I mean.
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: Well, like I said before about story, when you do that,
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: you can't service your story. You cannot you can't make
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: a story fit into a preconceived box, especially a good story.
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: We can talk about, you know some later on some
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: of the things later that where I've completely ignored story stories,
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: story rules, suppose it's story rules, and written some scripts
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: that I just wanted to write even though they broke,
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: you know, a ton of the story rules and those
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: you know, the one of those scripts is the script
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: that got me noticed and only I broke almost every
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: single supposed story rule going. And I didn't do it
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: on purpose. I just wrote a script that I wanted
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: to see.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: So, so let's talk about that, Bob. You know, you
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: broke every rule. You know, what was the script? And
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: what were a lot of these rules that you broke?
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: Oh, it's called extracurricular activity. It just we just finished
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: filming the effects sequences this last weekend. It should be
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: out in the fall, maybe, I think. And and it
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: was a dream come true for me because it was
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: one of my favorite scripts I ever wrote. And the
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: director and I, well not it didn't matter what I thought,
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: but the director pretty much saw it for what I
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: saw it for and wanted to have it be basically
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: what I had originally written, you know, eighteen years ago.
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: So it it's been kind of like one of those
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: dream come true deals. So, and how did I break rules? Okay,
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: the inciting incident happens, you know, forty pages before the
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: movie starts. The main character, the protagonist, well, you don't
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: even know who the protagonist is most of the movie.
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: It could be one guy. It could be another guy,
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: but they both could be the antagonist you don't know,
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: and and the the main character who you don't know
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: if is the antagonist or the protagonist has no arc.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I could see that definitely breaking seeing what
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: rules that broke. You know, it reminds me to Bob.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: You know, it's kind of like what what Tarantino did
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: with reservoir dogs, what Sewan Shane Black did with lethal weapon.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: It was almost like, you know, I by the way,
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: I loved I actually loved to read the script, not
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: only see them.
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: Are no whet when we get done, give me your
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: email alsocate.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: Oh cool, thank you. I'm always interested in seeing you again.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: Like you were just mentioning, it sort of broke all
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: the rules, but you use it as sort of you
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: use the break in, which I always think is great
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: because I think what happens is a lot of these
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: screenwriters write with all these rules and maybe to certain ways,
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: and they don't make the script theirs. So what happens
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: is they keep It's almost like imagine if ninety nine
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: screenwriters all were writing almost the same thing with the
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: same description, and that one other person actually follows their
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: own voice and maybe it's a little off the wall,
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: and it doesn't adhere to these formatting you know what
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, like this whole description thing, and all of
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: a sudden it's like, wow, look at this and it's
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: so different from the pack all because they just you know,
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: didn't go too crazy, but they they were able to
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: differentiate different entry eate themselves.
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: Well I went pretty crazy. But but the thing about
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: it was is that I never let anybody tell me
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: you have to do something some way. My answer is again,
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: always want why not? And I wanted to write something
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: that was you know, that was me, that was different,
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: that was something that I thought might get the interest
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: of some people. And it did. It's it's literally even
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: though it is what I would consider to be and well,
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: well not what I would consider to be as much.
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: I had somebody who was one of the Hallmark producer
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: read it and tell me it was the anti Hallmark film,
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: and which I felt pretty good about. But she liked
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: so much that she hired me to write a Hallmark film.
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: So you know, you just never know where where something
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: you know one of your samples is going to lead you.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's very true. And speaking of writing for Hallmark,
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: you know you've actually had written a few movies for them.
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: Oh, yes, I have, I have, I have up to
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: right now, I have three Christmas movies for them. I
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: probably will have a fourth this year, we'll see. I've
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: got a couple of other films for them, and I'm
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: writing one right now. So they've been great that They've
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: been terrific to me. And the Hallmark doesn't produce any films.
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: There are a bunch of feeder production companies that that
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: feed Hallmarks gigantic appetite for films, and I've worked for
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: a few of them and it's been it's been really
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: a joy to work with some of these wonderful production
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: companies and wonderful people, and work with the Hallmark people
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: who are terrifically nice. And it's you know, they have
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: a brand, and within that brand and within the rules
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: for those brands, you know you have to color between
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: the lines. And if you learn how to do that
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: and still tell a good story, you know they want
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: to work with you.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: So that's actually my next question was, when when you're
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: writing for Hallmark, do do they let you come in
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: and pitch your own ideas or do they maybe have
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: something they want you to work on already.
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: Now they let you pitch your own idea, well they don't.
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: The production companies let you pitch your own ideas. Yeah,
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: and then they pitch your ideas to Hallmark. And if Hallmark,
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: you know, goes for one, then you know they come
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: back and and and you write it or you will
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: you write write us back for them. And I've also
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: gotten jobs where they came production companies came to me
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: and said, here's our idea, we want to hire you
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: to write it. So they've come all different ways.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: And again that that's the power of networking, and it's
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: you know, obviously, you know you've been able to use
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: all these scripts as calling cards and again you have
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: such a great reputation you're able to sort of parlay
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: that in other work. Which is something that we usually
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: talked about on this podcast is how your network is
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: your net worth and basically how you're able to sort
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: of use your network by doing good work is really
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: critical of your success.
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: Networking is a really really interesting thing. And I do
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: it because I like people and I like to I
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: like you know, it's it's fun to it's fun to
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: network and find new friends. But networking isn't about finding
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: somebody in the industry and saying, now, what can you
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: do for me? Networking is all about building relationships that
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: are true. That you meet people and you and you
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: get to know people and you and you build relationships
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: where you actually like each other. I have a lot
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: of great friends that I also work with that that
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: if they you know that, we can be honest with
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: each other and work together and with great relationships. And
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: it's easier to be nice than it is to be
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: not nice. Not being not nice takes a lot of work.
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: And I like people, and I like to work with people.
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: And the best writers, you'll always notice that work over
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: and over again, are the ones that know how to cooperate,
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: understand the business, understand that everything they write is going
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: to get rewritten no matter what, and and work with
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: the people and learn from the people that they're dealing with.
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: It's so easy to get jaded, and it's so easy
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: to get upset about all the rejections that you get
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: when you're in this, because I've had millions of them.
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: But you get to a point where you also realize
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: that the rejection is isn't personal, that they don't they're
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: not doing it because they want to get back at you.
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: They're doing it for a million other reasons that you
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: have no control over. So you have to you have
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: to set yourself up in a business where that business
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: the business is you and your scripts are like your inventory,
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: and you have to sell you And the only way
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: you can do that is being nice and cooperative and
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: a good person. And it makes it makes a huge difference.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: So that that sort of you know, mythos so to
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: speak of the screenwriter who is it's almost like a
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: rambling alcoholic or something and going into meetings and and
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: just sort of making demands. Those days are far over, right, Bob.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show, oh ably or the idea.
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: There's there's a million scripts out there, and I'm not kidding.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: I mean there's a million scripts out there, and there
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: are thousands and thousands of screenwriters who want to be
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: who want to do this. And yes, if somebody is
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: like uber talented, you know, they may put up with
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: them for a while while they are successful, but you know,
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: they stop being successful and their phone stop ringing because
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: they're not easy to work with. Nobody wants to work
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: with with with people who aren't easy to work with,
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: and and you just you just learn to you know,
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: learn to it. You just be the you treat people
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: the way you want to be treated, and it makes
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: a huge difference.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I can curve Bob. And you know, there was
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: a friend of mine when he does a lot of
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: a film work, both as like a producer and director,
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: and something he instituted finally when he was doing a
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: lot of like indie film and by indie film, you know,
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: i'll just classify that. I'm gonna throw a number out there,
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: one hundred thousand and under. Now obviously I'm just throwing
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: a number out there, but it's basically he would always
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: be astonished when like first time actors or first time
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: writers would show up and they'd have an ego and
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: he never got it because they haven't done anything. How
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: do you even know what if you're good or not?
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: He basically you know, And so what you do is
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: he actually made a rule no egos, and he would
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: send them a message.
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry, Bob, that's a great rule.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: And well I can I agree completely because one of
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: the things I said to him was that is such
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: a great idea because what he says is in a
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: very nice way. He tells everybody, Look, we all have
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: had various successes and failures in this industry. Some of
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: us have worked in this industry for ten fifteen years.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: Some people have just started working in this industry last week.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: So just all sort of, you know, leave all that
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: at the door, and just focus on this project right now,
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: for better or worse.
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: Oh and it's yes. And what's so interesting about it
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: is I had really early success with my writing. I
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: optioned the first script I ever wrote to a studio,
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: and boy, my ego went out of bounds. It was
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: out of control, and it was I regret it like
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: crazy because I think I really alienated some people who
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: were my friends at the time because I was just
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: such a jerk. And then the movie didn't get made, okay,
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: And which is you know, now that I find out
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: that ninety nine percent of all options films don't get made,
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: it makes sense that it didn't get made because it's
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: you know, your If you're that lucky one percent, that's great.
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: But but at the time, it was just like this
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: huge slap in the face and an unbelievable lesson to
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: me that to never do anything like that again. And
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: I'm kind of grateful now that it didn't happen at
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: the time, because I could have been a real jerk,
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: and I just it was a really really sobering experience,
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: But I can imagine though, you know, Bob, when you
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: when you have such success so quickly, it was almost intoxicating,
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean, It's almost like almost a validation.
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: Oh it was a validation. I mean, it still was
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: a validation that I could write, but it was you know,
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: I hate to say this, it was like too soon.
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: It was like three months after I wrote my first
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: BAC script. It ended up at PolyGram, the PolyGram Studios
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: to get made. And only because Universal and MCA bought
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: PolyGram Corporation for their music catalog and then canceled their
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: movie business and dumped all their projects that I got
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: it back. It wasn't honest way to getting made, and
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: and it was just this unbelievable shock of this happening
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: that that kind of jolded me back to reality and
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: out of the the jerkiness stupor I was in.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, because again I was just imagining, you know,
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: especially when when you get success that quickly. You know,
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: have you ever seen the movie Overnight, that's a documentary
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: about Troy Duffy.
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: Yes, I have. I did, and it's it's painful to watch.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: Yes, especially with everything that you hear about the Weinsteins.
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: But they in that film looked like the good guys
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: because they gave that guy everything and he just pissed
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: it all away.
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: Yep, yeah, I did it, and it was it was.
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: It was the Yeah, I didn't quite get that bad.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: I didn't. I didn't get to that point. But but yeah,
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: it's a you know, it's a it's a movie that that.
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: There's a couple of movies about making movies that everyone
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: should watch. One of them is that one. The other
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: one is a movie that I absolutely love called American Movie.
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: Have you seen that?
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: You know, a couple of listeners keep telling me to
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: watch it.
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: I have not seen it yet, that you need to
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: watch that. It's about a guy making an ultra low
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: budget film. It's a terrific film. You know.
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: I'm going to make sure to rent that right now
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: after we're off the phone, Bob, I'm going to make
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: sure to go either rent that or bite off Amazon.
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: It's a great documentary just this. I actually it's one
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: of the few documentaries that I own, so it's it's
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: well worth it.
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm definitely gonna check that out. And I've you know,
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: and overnight as we were talking about, that's it. That's
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: another great one. And there's always that that joke about
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: making a movie because it for those of the for
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: those who've actually done it, actually going through this stake
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: of making a movie, they there's a whole nother level
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: of enjoyment because you're like I've been at that. There's
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: production meetings where tempers are flaring or I've been at
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: that point where you're so frustrated you go, why the
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: hell did I start this in the first place.
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: Well, everybody's got to live through a first movie. And
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: that's the truth. I mean, if you're a director or
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: a producer or something, you have to live through that
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: first movie and see all those mistakes that you make.
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: First movies are like you know, in the most part,
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: first scripts there they're mostly to teach you a lesson
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: and not you know, go much further than that.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and uh, you know that that's that's you know.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: Another thing I always talk about too, is how you
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: make a movie. And always, you know, I don't mean
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: this way it sounds, but always tell people to aim
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: low for their first movie, because they you know, you
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: tell somebody may go make a movie, and suddenly they
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: want a movie with ten million dollars of stunts and explosions.
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: You're like, no, no, no, they think, think smaller so
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: you can actually get it accomplished.
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: Well. Yeah. There's the thing about movies nowadays, and it's
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: really sad, I think, is the mid budget movie has disappeared.
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: There are movies that that that the studios make that
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: are one hundred and two hundred million dollars, and then
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: there's the five million dollar movie and lower, and there's
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: not a whole heck of a lot in between. And
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: there's about six six entities that can make the two
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: hundred million dollar movies, and and there's tons of producers
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: that can make the five million dollar movie movies. And
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: yet people, the new writers insist on writing these great,
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: big budget things that that there's no market for. There's
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: zero market for. Last year, somebody was telling me this.
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: I'm not sure that this is completely true, but last
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: year they said, in twenty sixteen, Disney didn't buy one
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: spec script.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I could definitely see that.
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's that's the way it is right now. So
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: if you're going to write a first movie, write it
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: five million dollars or less.
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I concur you know. And as we talked about
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: Disney and buying all these specs scripts, you know, I've
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: seen that before too, where you know it's uh. I
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: was listening to a interview actually with the Weinstein brothers
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: and they actually said the best way to make money
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: in the movie business is just have a whole library
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: of films, not make another one, but you're just selling
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: the licenses and the content rights for you know, temporarily
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: selling them, just renting them out. And that's how they
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: they they would make a lot of money in the
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: film industry. So when I hear stuff about like Disney
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: like that, you know, I imagine either they're pulling back
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: from already established properties and I think Beauty and the Beast.
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: Oh they're all they're making. Yeah, all they're making is
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: things that are in there. They're from their back catalog
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: or the Marble which they own, or Star Wars which
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: they own, or Lucas which they own, and then they're
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: using you know, whatever else you know, they made Peach
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: they remade Peach Dragon last year. They I mean, it's
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: just there. They have their they're going to do their
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: their ride movies like Parates of the Caribbean, and they're
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: going to and they're going to stay away from trying
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: to do anything that doesn't have an already established audience.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word for our sponsor
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's why again, like guys like us, you know,
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: we like you're just saying, you know, the under five
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: million dollar budget. There's a lot more producers there. And
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: you know also as we talk about you know, Netflix
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: and Hulu and all these other you know, distribution channels,
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: there's a lot more ways to get your stuff out there.
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: But still Netflix and Hulu and Amazon, if they're doing
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: things with you know, buying films or making films, they're
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: all on that five million dollars or less category. I'm
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: not talking I'm not talking about the TV the series
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: that they that they end up buying, but those kinds
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: of things. But Netflix and Hulu and Amazon are also
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: buying ninety nine percent of what they buy from established writers, producers, directors,
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: and production companies and people like that. When they all
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: start started, they were going to be open to, you know,
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: all kinds of new people. And found out that most
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: new scripts, you know, are from unknown writers are pretty bad.
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: And I had to regroup and decide to do it
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: the way the studios do it through agents and production
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: companies in that way, so it's it's not as open
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: as some people think it is.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an extremely good point, Bob, because I think,
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: you know, you're absolutely right, you know, because what happens
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: is when they do go out there and see all
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: these unknown writers, you know, maybe they're unknown for a reason,
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: maybe their scripts have never gotten better. For instance, I actually,
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: you know, have known writers and they they've written like ten, eleven,
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: twelve screenplays, and every single one of them, Bob, is
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: exactly the same as the one before it. And what
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: I mean by that is is literally it's the same
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: type of characters in the same type of situation, in
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: the same time, type of genre, and it's just the
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: same old The kids go in a house that's supposedly
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: haunted to prove it's not haunted, but it turns out
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: it is haunted, and they also dying one by one,
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: and that is that pretty much sums up all like
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: ten eleven of those scripts.
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: When Amazon first got started, they had that let's be
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: open to everyone and let's find I think their idea
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: behind it was let's try and get all the great
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: scripts that the studios miss. So they opened up to
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: everyone and they had they said, please send us your
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: stuff and we'll read it all and we'll be buying
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: from unknowns. And they lost a million dollars on that
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: that deal and pretty much decided, Okay, this isn't the
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: way it works. We need to go to established producers
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: and production companies and writers and stuff. And they realized
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: that the having a an open submission policy left them
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: open to getting hundreds of thousands, hundreds of thousands of
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: scripts that they had to hire people to read.
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: And most of those scripts probably were read before through
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: various you know, gatekeepers or maybe uh screen script consultants,
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: packages and script consultants and stuff like that. And they
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: all got passes.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: You know, so everybody, they all did. They all did.
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: I can't There may have been one or two that
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: the Amazon looked at and did something with, but out
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: of the couple of hundred thousand that they got, that's
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: not a You know, that's not a very good percentage.
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's probably what less than one percent?
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: Oh, it's it's probably less than a tenth of a percent.
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: You know. The the problem is is that is that
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: that there are when you set up an open submission
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: like that, is you also set yourself up for people
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: who have unrealistic expectations that they figure once they are
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: able to openly submit that, you know, they can sit
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: back and wait for the movie to get made. And
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: this is a This is an industry, especially for writers,
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: This is an industry of unbelievable patients. You have to
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: be so patient to try and be a screenwriter. It's
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: it's unbelievable that the average time between the time you
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: write a script and the time that it gets made,
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: if it does get made, is about eight years. Well
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: in the case of extracurricular activity, it was eighteen years.
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: So you know, it's there is no instant gratification in
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: this business. None. There are no shortcuts to get something done,
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: and there's no instant gratification. It is a long haul,
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: nose to the grindstone, thick skin business.
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: And you know, actually I wanted to ask you too
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: about that. You mentioned nose to the grindstone. I want
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: to ask about your process, Bob, and how you know
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: you write screenplays. So when you know you wake up
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: in the morning or if you have a morning routine,
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: what are some of the most important things that you
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: do before you start a screenplay? I mean, do you
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: just start with a treatment, do you just go right
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: into it? Do you outline it all?
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: I come up with a concept, and the concepts can
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: come from anywhere. I've gotten concepts for my scripts from
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: something my kids said to me. I've gotten concepts from
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: my scripts with conversations with friends. I've gotten concepts by
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: reading an article in a newspaper or or you know,
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: just thinking about what ifs and or seeing something when
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: I'm out somewhere and thinking, you know, what if and
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: and and coming up with concepts for for for whatever
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: I'm going to write next and and once I do that,
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: if it's a subject matter that I don't know anything about,
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: one of the first things I do is hands on research.
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: I actually go out and find people that do what
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: I'm going to be writing about, and I ask them
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: about how they do it and what they do. I
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: don't go on with you know, on h on Wikipedia
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: and on the Internet or look at you know on
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: the Internet. I actually go out and find people. I've
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: been I've been on write alongs with cops. I've interviewed
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: police chiefs. I've interviewed doctors. I've gone into hospitals, I've
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: I've gone I've done all kinds of things to get
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: a good idea about how things are done in the
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: area I'm going to write about, so that when I
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: write it, it has its basis in reality, even if
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: I'm going to write something that you know is completely
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: out in left field.
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: So, Bob, how do you approach like people like you know,
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: the police and the chief of police, how do you
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: actually approach them about maybe being able to sort of
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: to get.
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: Them to open up. I call them and they say, Hi,
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: I'm writing a script about this and this and this,
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: and I want to get it right. And everybody says, finally,
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: somebody who wants to get what we do right, and
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: they open up and talk to you. I was supposed
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: to talk to a police chief and a small town
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: police chief because I wrote something that had a small
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: town police chief police chiefent and I wanted to get
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: stories from him and ideas from him. And how it
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: all works. And I was supposed to have twenty minutes
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: with him and I ended up with almost two hours
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: because we were having such a good time and it
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: was it was unbelievably helpful in getting me to get
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: a realistic idea of all kinds of different things that
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: ended up in the script. So yeah, people, you'd be
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: surprised that people really want you to get what they
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: do right, so they will open up and talk to you. Yes,
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: I've had people say no, no, I'm too busy, or no,
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: that's ridiculous, but you know, you can always find somebody.
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: So you know, that's actually something that I've done too.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: Actually one of the things that I did, Bob, I
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: went a courier at one time and I actually just asked, Hey,
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: is there any police officers that would want to talk
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: to me? And this is the reason why, and this
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: is what I'm doing. And I got like four or
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: five responses and I was able to talk to them,
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: and you know, it was it was amazing and just
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: you know, and that's that's right I did. I didn't
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: actually call up anybody in particular. I just put that
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: on courier.
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: I think that's great. And you just do what you
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: have to do. You do, you know, you do, and
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: you might know somebody that knows somebody that does what
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: you're looking for. And it's just it's a matter of
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: just again networking and finding out about things. And then
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: if you have you know, if you're doing your your
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: your you know, and if I come up against something
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: that in the script that I that I don't know about,
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: I'll make an effort to find out about it, not
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: just make it up. I read a script one time,
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: unfortunately from another writer that took place in a hospital,
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: and when I finished reading it, I called him and
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: I said, have you ever been in a hospital? Because
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: nothing in this script would ever happen in a hospital ever.
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: And he said to me, but it's a movie. And
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: that was the end of our conversation.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: I just imagine the the hospital fight from Machete, where
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: where you know, all the stuff's happening in the hospital.
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: But then again, it's a movie, right yeah, but but
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: but you know, but that's of a movie and Machete
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: I I went in expecting, you know, you know, so
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: over the top, you know. So, I mean, I you
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: probably can't go into deep but was it just like
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: things like, was it a shootout?
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: Was it just uh No, it was just it was
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: it was they were commandeering an operating room when nobody
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: was in there, which you couldn't possibly ever do. It
• 50:37
  Speaker 4: was it was a lot of things like that. It
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: was just it was just ridiculous and and there was
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: It was just you know, you could have a shootout
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: in an operating room if you wanted to, that would
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: be fine, you know, but you have to portray the
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: operating room correctly and how they how they work. That's
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: not and is great. I mean, that's that's Rodriguez, and
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: that's Danny Trejo. And by the way, Danny Treo is
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: a great guy. But that's that's a whole nother thing.
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: That's you suspend your belief something like that.
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: So have you actually worked with with with Danny Treo? Bob.
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: I was on a TV series for six years called
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: Nash Bridges, where I again like I had a really really,
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: really small part, but they had so many great guest stars.
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: I sat down with Robert Rodriguez one day and and
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: picked his brain for about twenty thirty minutes, Trey Hoo
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: was on and he was great. What a nice guy,
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: just a terrific guy. And I got to meet some
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: you know, I got to meet some some really really
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: fabulous people and some people that to me were like icons.
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: One of my favorite movies in the entire world is
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: The Producers, and the guy that played Han Fleeken, Kenneth Mars,
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: guested on nash once and I got to sit down
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: with him and it was it was unbelievable. And James
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: Hong from who played you know, Low Pan in Big
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: Trouble Little China guest start and I tell him, you know,
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: I'm not worthy, but it was. It was really, it
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: was really an amazing experience. Beyond that show. It was
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: kind of Forrest Gumpy. I got to you know, be
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: there and and and meet and see all this wonderful stuff.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: You can't see this, Bob, because it's a podcast. But
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: to my right on the on my right side wall,
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: here is a signed James hung headshot of him as
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: low Pan that I actually got a few years ago
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: at this event that he actually did here in Philadelphia Chinatown.
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: It was at this meet and greet thing and he
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: was one of the he was the honored guest, and
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: I got to meet him and it was in he's
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: absolutely phenomenal.
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just great. He's really funny and he's really
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: you know, I said. I walked up to him and
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: I said, hey, I got to tell you something, and
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: he looked at me and went low pan huh.
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: And so it was you're right, yeah, you're you're Cassandra's
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: father in Wayne's world too.
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: And he goes, oh, yeah, uh no, you never came
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: never came out. No, No. All I can think about
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: is is is Jack Burton going with fire coming out
• 53:34
  Speaker 4: of his mouth? And that was it. That was it
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: for me.
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: Uh. And see, that's such a great story, Bob, because
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: I mean I I've met him actually twice, and uh,
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: you know, everyone who's always met him has always been like, wow,
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: he's just he is phenomenal. And when I met him,
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: he was right before Kung Fu Panda two or three,
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: I can't remember which one. But he actually showed a
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: little clip and he goes, he goes, listen, everybody, he goes,
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: you can't video this, or or I'm going to get
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: beat up by pixelar. He's the picture is going to
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: come to my house and have ducked to me. He goes,
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: so don't you can't, you can't actually show this, And
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: it was just it was just funny because you know
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: the James Hung delivery of that line. So picture what
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: I just said as James Hang, and now it's funny.
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: Yes I can, I can completely picture. But anyway, he
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: was great and he was fun on the show, and
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: it was really wonderful to, you know, sit down and
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: talk to him. So I've had it's been it's been
• 54:30
  Speaker 4: a really kind of fun, you know, experience to be
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: an actor in doing these things. I've worked with some
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: unbelievable directors I've worked with. I've been lucky enough to
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: work with Coppola twice and he as an actor, and
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: Ron Howard once, and Clint Eastwood twice and David Fincher
• 54:54
  Speaker 4: once in an amazing experience and I just it's just
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: been like Kismet and thank you God, you know, having
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: me be able to have these experiences, because I came
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: away from them a happy and amazingly educated about what
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: I saw and took in.
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: So what was that project that you worked on with Fincher?
• 55:16
  Speaker 4: I'm in Zodiac really, yeah, in the uh I got
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: it's great. I got a letter from Warner Bros. Right
• 55:26
  Speaker 4: after I did it, and it said, you're in the movie.
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: Come down to the premiere. We can't wait to see you.
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: Looking forward to it. We'll give you the information when
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: we get it. And then a couple of weeks later,
• 55:39
  Speaker 4: I got a letter saying they cut eighteen minutes out
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: of the movie and your three minutes are in those
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: eighteen minutes, and thank you very much, and please don't
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: come to the premiere. So I thought, okay, well, I've
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: been cut out of you know, worst movies, and I
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: you know, it was one of those things you can't
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: take the experience away. But I was hoping. And then
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: I got a check, a residual check, and if you're
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: not in a movie, you shouldn't get a residual check.
• 56:08
  Speaker 4: So I called my agent and I said, I got
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: a residual check, but I don't supposed to get it.
• 56:14
  Speaker 4: I don't want to cash it. And she said hold on,
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: and she checked, and she came back and said, you're
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: in the director's cut, and you do get a residual check,
• 56:23
  Speaker 4: so go ahead and cash it. Then please send me
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: my ten percent. So I'm in the director's cut, So
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: I'm watching you. I put now it's now, don't watch
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: that two and a half three hour movie in the
• 56:39
  Speaker 4: director's cut again to look for two minutes of me.
• 56:43
  Speaker 4: But it was fun and and Fincher is just he
• 56:47
  Speaker 4: is the greatest. He was so much fun and so
• 56:52
  Speaker 4: just a terrific guy. I really enjoyed it.
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: So so what does what does he do? Bob? That
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: is that is different? That that sort of made him
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: Fincher if you know what I mean? Is it just
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: by directing act.
• 57:04
  Speaker 4: I've told, I've told, I've told the story before on
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: another podcast, so I'm not going to tell the entire story.
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: He cast me and then brought me in as an extra,
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: not telling me he cast me because the character was nervous,
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: and and then sprung it on me the day of
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: the shoot.
• 57:26
  Speaker 5: And then and then uh had me, had me look
• 57:32
  Speaker 5: at the script, and then once I felt halfway comfortable,
• 57:36
  Speaker 5: said okay, we're not using the script.
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: We're going to do this all and we're going to
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: add lib everything. And then he said, oh, by the way,
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: the real guy who you're portraying was a chainsmoker. Do
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: you smoke? I said no? And he said you do now,
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: and it just went to really help my performance. He
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: was great. I mean, he was, he was, he was.
• 58:01
  Speaker 4: Couldn't have been, couldn't have been a better experience as
• 58:06
  Speaker 4: an actor, couldn't have been. It's it was one for
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: the books. It's it's you know, it's one of those
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: great memories that no one could ever take away from you.
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: So jus a quick follow up, Bob. One last Fincher question,
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: how many takes did you do of the scenes? Because
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: I've heard stories about Fincher where he does a lot
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: of takes of the same thing. Did you have to
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: do a lot of Did you do a lot of
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: takes that day? I?
• 58:32
  Speaker 4: Yes, many, multiple, multiple multiples. But the greatest story was
• 58:37
  Speaker 4: I play a cab driver and then one of the scenes,
• 58:40
  Speaker 4: I was actually driving the cab and Jake Jillenhall runs
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: across Mission Street to the Chronicle building and all he
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: does to run across and he hits my cab with
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: the palm of his hand as he's running because I'm
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: to get the stop as he's trying to run across
• 58:55
  Speaker 4: the streets, and I stopped and about take seventy four,
• 59:01
  Speaker 4: Jill and Hall walked up to the window of the
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: cab and looked at me and said, do you want
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: to do that again? And I said, hey, he goes,
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: I don't And he walked over to Fincher and said,
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: I'm done. I'm through with running across the street. And yeah,
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: seveny takes so about running across the street.
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: So so I just want to just sort of reiterate
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: that because we kind of lost the connection there for
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: a second, so Jake, but Jake went back to Fincher
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: and just said I'm done.
• 59:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm done with this.
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: Uh see, stories like that, Bob. That that that stories.
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: I like that. Why I like filmmaking. It's just stories
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: like that. And again, like you said, in an experience
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: you're going to take away for the rest of your life.
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we'll be right back after a word from
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: our sponsor. And now back to the show.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: And uh, Bob, we had a few questions come in,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: uh okay, and we've answered a lot of them as
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: just in the course of conversation, as it naturally happens.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: But there is there is one question that I thought
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: I would ask, and I'm sorry I didn't. I don't
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: know who actually asked this. I will find out in
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: a second but uh, just about marketing yourself over the
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: years and promotion.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 6: Uh.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: This came in through this screenwriters who can actually write
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: a Facebook for him. I wanted to ask about that.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: What so, what are some of the things that you've
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: done and advice for for writers for marketing and promotion
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: over the years, for for for people who want to
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: promote their own work.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: Anything you can do that's not illegal or stupid. That's
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 4: that's my That's that's pretty much my whole you know,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 4: my whole outlook on marketing yourself. I did it a
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 4: lot through networking because I was lucky enough to be
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 4: an actor and beyond sets and network with people and
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 4: get to know people first before I said, oh, by
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: the way, I'm writing something. I didn't walk up to
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 4: you know, people I met right away and say, oh,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 4: you know, by the way, I'm I'm you know, I'm
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 4: a writer. Where you read my script and make me
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 4: you know, and buy it and make me a millionaire,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 4: which I've seen people do. I again, I establish relationships
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: with people. Networking is incredibly important. It takes a long time,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 4: but it's really the best way. Querying producers going on
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 4: IMDb pro you have to if you're going to be
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 4: in business for yourself. Like I said before, in your
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 4: marketing yourself, you have to invest in your business. You
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 4: can't be cheap about it. So you have to buy
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: things like IMDb pro and you've got to go on
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 4: there and you've got to look at the producers who
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: produce the kind of scripts that you're writing and querry them.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 4: You know, in ninety nine percent of the time you're
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 4: going to get no answer or a pass. But the
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 4: thing about it is is that all it takes is
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 4: one person to believe in you and believe in what
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 4: you do, one person to begin with. That's all it
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: took for me, one person. And I think that that
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 4: the problem is is that people don't want to do
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 4: the hard work that it takes to find that one person.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: So your query producers and you keep querying them, query managers. Agents.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 4: Agents aren't going to want to talk to you. Don't
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: query agents. They don't want you, they don't need you there,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: they've got what they want. If you're when you get established,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 4: then they'll talk to you. But managers, managers will talk
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: to you. There's lists of managers on douneal pro. There's
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 4: lists of managers that you can find on the internet,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 4: find the ones that are specializing in the kind of
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 4: things that you're writing, and query them and then you know,
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: do it again, and then do it again, not to
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: not too quickly, but you know, and and keep it
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 4: up and and keep I used to keep a big
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: chart of who I sent stuff to and when I
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 4: sent stuff to them and what the response was, so
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: so I was educated and knew, you know, who I'd
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: sent stuff to before, so I wasn't an idiot and
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 4: sent the same thing out to him again.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: So it's like they're like, man, this this guy sent
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: me the same thing again. I didn't like it the
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: first time.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 4: Yet, Yeah, you don't want to do that because actually,
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 4: surprisingly enough, some of these places do actually keep track
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: and and and you don't want to be one of
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 4: the people that they see something from and just delete.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 4: So you want to be you have to be smart
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 4: and business like about it. It's uh and and and
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 4: corying and networking and and some of the contests are
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 4: good too. I've had a friend who I've got had
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 4: a couple of friends who did really well in the
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 4: nickel and they got managers out of it, and they
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: got some writing assignments out of it. So the Nickel's
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: a great contest to do well in. Austin is another
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 4: great contest to do well in and after that it
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: kind of falls off precipitously that you know that there
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 4: are so many screenwrine contests now that producers really don't
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 4: care if it's Austin or or the Nickel. They care
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 4: if it is anything else. There's not a whole lot
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: of interest. And then the Blacklist. Every once in a
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: while can do something on the Blacklist, not very often,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 4: because it's like anything else. It's you have the same
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 4: chance as you do with a query or anything else.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 4: If you do well, that doesn't mean that somebody's gonna
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 4: option your thing. And then you can do well and
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 4: sometimes somebody will option something, but then again a lot
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 4: of most options still can may So it's it's it's
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 4: a it's trial and error, it's being organized, and it's
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 4: u figuring out how to network. You can network on Twitter,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 4: you can network on Facebook. I've met a lot of
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 4: really wonderful people on the Writing and the Writing group
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 4: on Facebook, and I've met some incredible people who are
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 4: going to be my lifelong friends on Twitter, who are
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 4: who are really some fine, fine writers that I really respect,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 4: so you just never know.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's very true, Bob. I mean, hey, look we're friends,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: and you know, we were friends for a while and
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: you know, now we're being able to chat like.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 4: This, which is great. I like your Like I said before,
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: I really like your podcast. You ask good questions and
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 4: you listen and you ask good follow up questions, and
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 4: you have interesting people on. They can't ask for more
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 4: than that.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: Well, thank you. Well, I really appreciate that. And it's
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: always good having you know, amazing guests like you on.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 3: And no, I mean seriously, I mean.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: I met I. I had a young writer who wanted
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 4: to come and have and have a drink with me
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: last time I was in La and I it was
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 4: late at night, and I said, yes, I'd be happy
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 4: to And he comes in and he says, look, I'm
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 4: just so in awe and all this stuff, and I said,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 4: stop stop, I don't. I don't handle that. Well, I don't.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: That doesn't work for me. Let's just sit like a
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 4: couple of guys and talk about writing. And and that's
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 4: thank you for saying. I'm amazing. I just I just
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 4: I am, I am who I am. And it doesn't
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 4: change from you know, from person to person, and and
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 4: and I love what I do. And I had so
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 4: much incredible help when I was first getting started by
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 4: some phenomenally talded, wonderfully influential people that at the least
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 4: that I can do, as far as I'm concerned, is
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 4: to give some of it back.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: And we're all very appreciative of that, Bob, because you know,
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: I'm always fortunate again to find guests like that, who
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: who are very interested in sort of doing you know,
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: podcasts like like mine and and you know, trying to
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: give back and and sharing the knowledge and the wisdom
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: from from climbing those mountaintops, so to speak. And I've
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: been very fortunate. I've had a lot of great guests on. Yeah.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: So it's it's it's been it's been a long journey.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 4: It's great. We'll keep it up. I will continue to
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 4: listen and and thanks for having me on. I really
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: I really appreciate it. It's it's uh, yeah, I enjoy
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 4: doing things like this. It's it's always fun, Bob.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: Where can you aple find you? Right online?
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 4: You can find me online at at b O B
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 4: s n Z at on Twitter. I have a blog
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: that I am not really good about keeping up with
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 4: all the time. But some some buddy that rates screenwriting
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 4: blog somewhere rated me in the top ten, which I
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 4: was amazed at. And uh it's called it's Bob Science
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 4: b O B S A E n z dot com
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 4: slash blog. And I'm on Facebook. But and uh at
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 4: Bob Science b O B S A E n Z.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 4: And I'm not And I'm not the Bob Science. Whose
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 4: the insurance salesman at Texas.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 3: Oh that's what I thought I was talking to. Yeah, damn.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: I I will link to all that in the show
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: notes everyone, by the way, so everyone who wants to
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: to talk to Bob, I'm gonna link to all that.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and and uh and and you can. Actually I
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 4: have a I have a business email which is which
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 4: is on my website. So it's not anything that is
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 4: isn't out there. It's Bob at Bob Signs dot com.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: Again, Bob Signs. I want to say thank you so
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 3: much for coming on and this has been an absolute blast.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 4: My pleasure. Thank you for having me take care Bob.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 6: Thank you Bye.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: a great job on this episode. If you want to
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: head over to the show notes at Indie film huscle
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: dot com.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: Forward slash eight thirty four.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: And if you have it already, please head over to
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: filmmaking podcast dot com. Subscribe and leave a good review
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: for the show. It really helps us out a lot, guys.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: Thank you again so much for listening.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: Guys, As always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast at
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: Indie film Hustle dot com. That's I N D I
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: E F I L M h U S T l
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: E dot com.