Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 23 - Do Near Death Experiences Prove Universalism?

Transcript

Ep. 23 - Do Near Death Experiences Prove Universalism? · Martyr's Row

• 0:00
  The Holy Innocence of Bethlehem In the days of
• 0:04
  Herod the Great's tyrannical reign, the first,
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  though unsuspecting, martyrs of Christ were the
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  tender babes of Bethlehem, whose innocent blood
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  was shed in a desperate attempt to thwart the
• 0:18
  coming of the one true King. Though their lives
• 0:22
  were cut short, their deaths bore witness to
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  the world's hatred of righteousness. These holy
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  innocents, though their narrative questioned,
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  stand as a pillar for those who are martyred
• 0:36
  in the name of Christ. Welcome back to Martyrs
• 0:56
  Row. Martyrs Row. Martyrs Row. Paul, I have a
• 1:01
  surprise for you. Okay. Are you ready? This is
• 1:03
  a surprise. You all ready? You ready for a surprise?
• 1:07
  No. Let's go. Paul doesn't even know this yet.
• 1:09
  I don't. It's a surprise. Our first official
• 1:12
  sponsor of Martyrs Row. Gushers. Martyrs Row.
• 1:19
  Brought to you by Gushers. Doesn't that seem
• 1:24
  a little callous? What do you mean? Because we
• 1:27
  just read. Why is that callous? Like children's
• 1:35
  candy? Is that what you're saying? I don't know
• 1:37
  where I was going with it. Gushers, if you're
• 1:41
  out there, we would love to be sponsored by you.
• 1:44
  Please sponsor us. Aunt Babble. We're already
• 1:48
  sponsored by it. Sponsored by, that's the problem
• 1:52
  with Babbel. I can say it in another language,
• 1:56
  thank you Babbel. I have a problem with gushers.
• 2:02
  You like them? Well my problem with gushers is
• 2:05
  candy is bad for my teeth. Oh yeah. I mean all
• 2:08
  humans. Just yours? But mine like, I can tell
• 2:14
  if I haven't eaten candy for a week, my teeth
• 2:16
  feel different. Like, it's that immediate of
• 2:19
  a response. Really? Yeah. It's just the... Do
• 2:22
  they just get more sensitive when you eat candy?
• 2:24
  Yeah, and just like fall apart. They just like
• 2:27
  come out. You're brushing your teeth and they're
• 2:28
  just like... Yeah, it's not great. But, um, but
• 2:33
  gushers aren't exactly candy. So it's more like
• 2:37
  wax Yeah, it's like like you remember those those
• 2:43
  Coke bottle like wax thing. Oh, those are delicious.
• 2:46
  Yeah But only in my memory. Okay in in real life.
• 2:50
  They're not good No, cuz it's like well, you
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  can't even first of all, you can't you shouldn't
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  eat the wax No, but I did you're supposed to
• 2:57
  just have what's inside. Yeah, that never happened
• 2:59
  But how would you even I can't even imagine it
• 3:02
  wasn't good You're probably only supposed to
• 3:07
  eat one. I think so Or you eat like 20 of them
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  you just but I will say gushers and you know,
• 3:14
  thank you for sponsoring us It's one of those
• 3:17
  Candies where it's like when you actually eat
• 3:20
  it. It's not candy. You're right. It's gushers
• 3:22
  not candy technically But it is one of those
• 3:26
  when you eat it you're like This shouldn't be
• 3:29
  this good, right? But then you're like But I
• 3:32
  want to keep eating them. I know. It has like
• 3:34
  this response where my gums enjoy the process.
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  It's like, yeah, there's like something about
• 3:43
  biting down hard on something like that. Yeah.
• 3:45
  I don't know. But like gushers also, they just
• 3:51
  keep surprising me because there's like, there's
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  like. Well, I remember the last thing you brought
• 3:55
  this up. You said you bought like a, it was like
• 3:58
  a 20 pack of it, right? Oh, no. Okay, so I hadn't
• 4:02
  had gushers in a really long time. Yeah, that's
• 4:04
  right. And then I ordered a hat that was like
• 4:06
  this kind of boutique hat and the guy had just
• 4:12
  decided that he was gonna put a small pack of
• 4:14
  gushers in every package. So cool. So then I
• 4:17
  had one and I was like, well now I have to go
• 4:19
  buy gushers. And then I went to Sam's. or Costco,
• 4:26
  and bought like a 50 pack of Gushers. I love
• 4:30
  it. And I ate like five packs every day. Yeah.
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  For like three months. I think you gifted me
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  like a pack or two. Maybe. And it was amazing.
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  Yeah, they're great. Yeah, they were incredible.
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  Yeah, because the problem is if you do eat too
• 4:44
  much, they like kind of cake up. Yeah. But honestly...
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  It's fine. It's one of those, it's one of those
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  not candies. Yeah. Where you, you eat them one
• 4:54
  at a time and you don't put like four in your
• 4:56
  mouth. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So like, but
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  the thing with gushers though is they, why they
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  keep surprising me is because you don't realize
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  how many flavor options of gushers there are.
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  Oh, really? Yeah. Cause like the classic, like
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  if you just go to like Publix, there's only like
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  a couple options. It's like a tropical, Then
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  like there's another flavor to us. I didn't know
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  there were that many Yeah, but then if you go
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  to like and this is true of most candy if you
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  go to like Yeah, thank you because this is an
• 5:32
  ad for gushers if If you go to gushers not candy
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  not candy if you go to like a gas station Yeah,
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  it's like your gums will love it Not the gas
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  station Gas station, your gums will love it.
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  No one's ever said that. No, no, no. But it's
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  true if you go to, and of course we're in central
• 5:56
  Florida, so if you go to the right gas station,
• 5:59
  you're gonna be like, what are these flavors?
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  I've never seen any of these flavors anywhere
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  in my whole life. And it's just the most random
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  things. But then there's streamlined stuff. This
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  is watermelon and sour apple. Honestly, kind
• 6:14
  of a good combo. It's a very good combo. But
• 6:18
  then at the gas station there's a bunch of weird
• 6:20
  combos. But this is a combo you can actually
• 6:22
  get at Walmart. What's the weirdest combo you've
• 6:24
  seen of Gushers? Oh, I don't know. I would just
• 6:30
  be making it up. Gushers, what will it take for
• 6:35
  us to give you a flavor combination to try? Probably
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  nothing. Probably. Probably just this suggestion.
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  And they'll be like, that's good. I do feel like,
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  like I'm not a huge coconut fan. Yeah. But I
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  feel like a Gusher's coconut flavor mixed with
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  like a pineapple or something might be really
• 6:52
  good. That could be kind of cool. Like, because
• 6:54
  a pineapple, you'd add that sourness. I feel
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  like with coconut, though, I can, even if it
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  doesn't have the texture when I taste it, I feel
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  the texture. Yeah. But if you do like. Coconut
• 7:04
  oil like what if Gushers did like a real coconut
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  oil with pineapple? That could be cool and also
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  like potentially really healthy I want them to
• 7:14
  go weird with it like Sweet potato and carrots
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  because it would like pop in your mouth But it's
• 7:28
  a mystery package yeah, it'd be kind of awesome
• 7:30
  so This episode of Martyrs Row is brought to
• 7:36
  you by Gushers. Hopefully. Gushers, not a candy.
• 7:40
  Your gums will love it. Okay, now that the ad's
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  over. I was really close to ending that segment,
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  but we have to talk about the innocence. I feel
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  like we could have right there. It was just that
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  the whole thing was an ad. But the good thing
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  is it was an ad. Yeah, it was. But we have to
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  talk about the innocence a little bit. Yeah.
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  of a gusher. Yeah, the gusher's innocence. No,
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  no, that's a, we really should talk about that
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  because I think that's a surprise for a lot of
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  people. Yeah, sure. And to be honest, it was
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  for me a little bit when you brought up the idea.
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  Yeah. But then the more we talked about it, I
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  was like, actually, that's a great idea. Well,
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  when we talked last episode about John the Baptist.
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  Yes. As kind of a bridge of like, he's not technically
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  a Christian martyr, even though he's a saint
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  of the Catholic Church. Yeah. But also he is.
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  the last prophet and the first martyr. But technically,
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  according to the, if we add the innocents of
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  Bethlehem in, then they're the first martyr.
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  And John was spared in the process. True. Which
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  is kind of interesting. Yeah, all because his
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  mom fled, along with Jesus and his mom, or parents.
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  So John and Jesus both fled. They were the only
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  ones that survived. Which is crazy to think about.
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  Which, have you thought about the idea of like,
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  imagine growing up in your town. Yeah. Right?
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  And you and your cousin are the only ones who
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  didn't get wiped out. So then you're in first
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  grade. Oh, so we'd be the only two that are that
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  age. You're the only two boys. Yeah, oh true.
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  So in first grade in your hometown. Yeah. It's
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  just you and your cousin. And everybody else
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  is women. And by women I mean small girls that
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  are in first grade. Thank you for clarifying
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  that. We almost lost our sponsorship deal right
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  there. This is not part of the ad. No, we're
• 9:38
  done with that. Although I'm not sure Gushers
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  cares. Maybe not. General Mills might. If they
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  make a carrot and potato flavored Gushers. How
• 9:46
  dare you? Now we just turn on Gushers? I don't
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  think they care. Yeah, that is a weird idea though.
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  Right? And we've talked also about how small
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  Nazareth was, Bethlehem is not a big city as
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  well, and then Jerusalem, it's all just like
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  towns right next to each other. And they're really
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  more like, the best way you can think about it
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  actually is like, we live in a quote unquote
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  small town right now, but there's neighborhoods
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  that are the size of Nazareth. That's how I was
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  thinking about it. So be like it's like a bunch
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  of neighborhoods. Yeah, like Nazareth the neighboring
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  neighborhood got wiped out Yeah, but ours didn't
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  Well, but it was the whole it was like that whole
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  region. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So it's like a significant
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  amount of people Yeah, it's not like that's not
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  like it was just five people Yeah, which would
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  be interesting to look at like then that would
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  must mean that Does that put the disciples of
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  Jesus in a slightly different age bracket? And
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  you would mean that they were either younger
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  or older, right? Yeah, they couldn't be exactly
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  the same age, right? Because they would have
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  been dead true But we also don't know about the
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  ones that didn't die other than John and Jesus
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  Yeah, it's just a weird thing to think about
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  because we don't have a ton of information on
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  that and it's argued that there's not a whole
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  lot of There's not a whole lot of extra historical
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  documentation of that instance in the Book of
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  Matthew. True. Where Herod wipes out basically
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  a generation of males. Can we talk about that
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  for just a second? Yeah. Because I find that
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  interesting with the historical side of it. Because
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  of Egypt? Well, I do laugh, not because of that,
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  really. You shouldn't laugh. No. I think it's
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  a little funny because people will question its
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  historicity. OK. And they're like, well, because
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  there's only one account of it. So like, what
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  are their accounts? Like, well, we have one.
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  Right. Which is the Bible. But because it's the
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  Bible, people don't like it. There's also a lot
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  of other things, to your point, that we only
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  have one account of. Right. And everyone just
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  agrees on it. Yeah. But yeah. Well, Pontius Pilate's
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  one of them. I mean, we have multiple because
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  of the Gospels, but we have like a plate that
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  has his name on it or it might have been like
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  a stone that we found. That's right. And they're
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  like, oh yeah, see, he is real. And it's like,
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  yeah, the Bible has been saying he's real for
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  a long time. Yeah, we all believed it. Yeah.
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  Now it's like, OK, now that we have some actual.
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  Yeah, true. So it's kind of an interesting idea.
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  Yeah. Where we kind of discount it just because
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  the Bible is the only thing that we found that
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  said it so far. Yeah, but. Again, it's like many
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  oral traditions, but then painstakingly, specifically,
• 12:46
  as much as possible, held onto tradition of what
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  is the canon today. It's like the meticulous
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  care that has been taken for it over thousands
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  of years. It's a little bit like, I don't know
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  that... Like in some ways we've talked about
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  this a little bit but like the library of Alexandria
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  or now we know the library of Pergamum as well.
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  Which I never even realized until we talked about
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  it. Until you brought it up, yeah. Which is like
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  basically the Bible is kind of the only ancient
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  text that survived the whole thing. Which is
• 13:22
  interesting because I'm pretty sure the Septuagint,
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  the Greek Old Testament was... written for the
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  Library of Alexandria. That's how we have it.
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  Oh, interesting. That it was commissioned to
• 13:32
  be part of that library. Really? That's what
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  I believe is true. And therefore it is fact.
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  Don't quote me on that. Yeah. There was some
• 13:44
  rich guy somewhere that wanted all of the ancient
• 13:47
  knowledge in one library. That's how anything
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  happens. It's true. I mean, even with that, because
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  we're kind of on that vein right now of ancient
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  knowledge. in history, it is always fascinating
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  to me. So, by the way, I love all the comments
• 14:02
  that you guys leave. I know we both really appreciate
• 14:06
  it, and I love getting to go in and reply. For
• 14:09
  those that have received my replies, sometimes
• 14:12
  it can take me a few days. It allows, because
• 14:14
  it's like I have to sit and then write a book,
• 14:17
  so I'm sorry for that, but I don't know how to
• 14:19
  give short replies sometimes. And one of the
• 14:23
  guys I've been commenting back and forth with
• 14:26
  right now, it is that interesting idea where
• 14:30
  he's got this question about the Trinity and
• 14:34
  what's that doctrine, where does it come from?
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  And what's funny about it, and this was part
• 14:38
  of what I wrote in my response to him, was it's
• 14:41
  funny for us to look at it now and say, yeah,
• 14:43
  see, people made it up and here's why. But then
• 14:46
  it's like, well, hold on a second, it had to
• 14:47
  come from somewhere. And so let's just go ahead
• 14:50
  and read the Old Testament and be like, oh, well,
• 14:52
  there it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what
• 14:53
  I mean? So it's funny how we can come up with
• 14:57
  ideas sometimes and be like, oh, see, that's
• 14:59
  where they made it up from, or that's where they
• 15:01
  got it from. But then if we just studied what
• 15:04
  ancients were saying, we realized, oh, there's
• 15:06
  actually more in here than we really give them
• 15:08
  credit for. What's the, it's the hero Israel,
• 15:12
  the Lord your God. Yeah. The Lord is God. The
• 15:15
  Lord is one. Yeah, the Lord is one. Yeah. It
• 15:19
  like the Shema or something. It's there's a Hebrew
• 15:22
  word for it. Yeah, it's like that's like that's
• 15:24
  the passage that they I Mean they would write
• 15:28
  that as you use it. I actually have one at my
• 15:30
  house. Really? Yeah, and yeah, you put it. Thanks
• 15:33
  mom You put it on your doorpost. Yeah, which
• 15:36
  is pretty cool So if you ever are like, hmm,
• 15:39
  you're walking up to a house You're like, I wonder
• 15:41
  if they're Jewish if they have a mezuzah on the
• 15:43
  doorpost. They're either Jewish or me This is
• 15:51
  our new segment Jewish or me Brought to you by
• 16:00
  gushers not candy potato and So so here's the
• 16:10
  thing yeah This week we brought you a new idea
• 16:14
  to study and to look up and I think that's all
• 16:17
  we'll say on it Yeah, so that so the the innocence
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  of Bethlehem mmm Technically the first group
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  of martyrs in our canon they are that never had
• 16:26
  a shot Honestly envy because they never chance
• 16:35
  to mess it up unless you're Augustinian that's
• 16:38
  true and then Then hopefully covered by God's
• 16:44
  grace. We're praying Well Should we write a song?
• 16:50
  We should write a song This first segment brought
• 16:55
  to you by Gushers Specifically watermelon and
• 16:58
  sour apple flavor and the holy innocence of Bethlehem.
• 17:01
  Yes And I won't say the parent company because
• 17:05
  who knows what they're into they might not sponsor
• 17:07
  us Gushers Not candy Your jaws gonna love it
• 17:14
  three two one So we've had journeys here with
• 17:20
  the songs We just had journey here they were
• 17:25
  just here. Yeah, sorry. They're not on the side
• 17:28
  We told them to leave we had work to do yeah,
• 17:31
  and they understood yeah, they're avid listeners
• 17:35
  But I think it's been a little while since we've
• 17:42
  done an actual like martyrs road jingle. It's
• 17:46
  true. I realized that like I was I was writing
• 17:49
  like a song like yeah versus chorus bridge to
• 17:55
  the point where I was like yeah uh that's not
• 17:58
  that wasn't really the original intent and I
• 18:00
  started just leaning into who did we just talk
• 18:03
  about whatever the topic was yeah let's get into
• 18:05
  that which is funny because after this segment
• 18:08
  is when we bring up the question. Yeah. It's
• 18:12
  kind of like a teaser. Sometimes you've gotten
• 18:14
  full songs on the topic we're about to talk about,
• 18:17
  and then we pretend like we didn't know what
• 18:20
  we were going to talk about. That's actually
• 18:22
  my favorite part of the last segment. Same. But
• 18:27
  yeah, it's funny actually, someone asked me recently,
• 18:30
  they're like, oh yeah, I haven't listened to
• 18:31
  like the most recent, did you guys ever land
• 18:33
  on a theme? Or like, you really haven't been
• 18:36
  listening? Oh, you listen to like two episodes.
• 18:40
  We're in the 20s now, guys. Yeah, we don't try.
• 18:44
  Except for today. We've almost graduated college,
• 18:48
  something like that. Yeah. We'll see. I don't
• 18:51
  need no education. Yeah, so I'm gonna try something.
• 18:57
  Okay. I haven't fully done this yet, so it's
• 19:00
  kind of like every time we do these, it's like,
• 19:03
  there's part of it that's like we want it to
• 19:04
  be a little messy. Yeah. Just part of the fun.
• 19:07
  Yeah, because otherwise it would take like, you
• 19:10
  know, like several hours just to do this segment.
• 19:13
  Yes. So this is our way of... Doing it as quick
• 19:17
  as possible. We do it once Oops, maybe we shouldn't
• 19:20
  have said that No, actually I want to say that
• 19:24
  okay for the all the ones they've listened to
• 19:26
  yeah, that's not like you went with that take
• 19:29
  It was the only take so you're welcome, so I'll
• 19:35
  try this and then We'll see what happens Here
• 19:40
  we go It is a long way down martyr's road We
• 19:59
  take the narrow on martyr's road Come join the
• 20:09
  faithful, not all are able We honor those who
• 20:15
  came before, suffered and died old You're the
• 20:21
  life, whoa Some crucified on martyr's row Come
• 20:27
  join the faithful Not all are able We honor those
• 20:33
  who came before Suffered and died, oh Boy, you're
• 20:39
  the life, whoa Some crucified on martyr's row
• 20:45
  It is a long way down We take the narrow on Marder's
• 20:59
  Row It is a long way down Marder's Row We take
• 21:13
  the narrow on Marder's Row On Marder's Row Three,
• 21:27
  two, one. This time we're gonna jump straight
• 21:31
  into the question. That's new for us. It is new
• 21:33
  for us. And I like it. I feel like some of it
• 21:36
  though is what we've, how we started out and
• 21:39
  then we kinda evolved and have shifted back to
• 21:41
  it. Yeah. So let's refine. Okay. So I have a
• 21:44
  question for you tonight. Well, back to basics.
• 21:46
  Back to the basics. So before we pontificate
• 21:49
  more about it. Just cause we will. Yeah, okay.
• 21:51
  Get to it. Yeah, here we go. So straight to the
• 21:53
  question. Dear listener or viewer, I hope you're
• 21:57
  ready for this one. And if you're not, it's okay,
• 22:00
  because you're at the beginning of this part
• 22:01
  of the podcast, and by the end... You'll be at
• 22:04
  the end of it. You'll be at the end of it, and
• 22:06
  you're welcome. Hopefully. I don't know where
• 22:09
  you'll be, but like mentally and spiritually,
• 22:13
  I'm starting to do what you do, blend the words
• 22:15
  together. Isn't that crazy? I still haven't asked
• 22:17
  the question. We're terrible. All right, so here's
• 22:21
  the question. Without further ado, here's the
• 22:24
  question. Paul, do near -death experiences prove
• 22:30
  universalism? It's a big question. Honestly,
• 22:38
  it's the biggest question we've asked. I think
• 22:41
  so. No, honestly. There's so much in it. Yeah.
• 22:45
  And honestly, a lot of things we haven't really
• 22:47
  touched on. Sure. those that see the title of
• 22:52
  the episode and are like, yeah. So some people
• 22:56
  would be like, what are near -death experiences?
• 22:59
  What does that mean? Well hopefully everybody
• 23:01
  right now is just eating gushers. You better
• 23:03
  be. Pause the podcast and go get gushers. Now
• 23:08
  you're ready for the podcast. But near -death
• 23:09
  experiences. Because we have asked questions
• 23:12
  in the past that are intentionally loaded or
• 23:15
  intentionally like, hey, this question is actually
• 23:19
  categorically wrong. So let's fix it in the process.
• 23:23
  But this one, it introduces topics that we've
• 23:27
  kind of walked towards. But like, I mean - We
• 23:31
  haven't officially touched on. Yeah, like what
• 23:34
  is near -death experiences? Well so, I was gonna
• 23:38
  say before I answer that, I wanna ask you, what
• 23:40
  is universalism? I'm gonna turn it back on to
• 23:45
  you, because I'm about to talk for a long time.
• 23:48
  Okay, so you want me to talk first? I want you
• 23:49
  to talk first. Okay, well I did ask you the question.
• 23:52
  That's true, and I'm pulling a Jesus on you.
• 23:56
  I'm pulling a Jesus on you. Where I ask the question,
• 23:59
  ask her a question. Fair enough, I understand.
• 24:03
  I understand how Jesus works, Paul. Just kidding,
• 24:07
  no one does. I mean, not fully. Only in part.
• 24:11
  That's a whole other question. Yeah, true. Yeah.
• 24:14
  Okay. So what is universalism? So there's, well,
• 24:19
  one, it's a historical prominent heresy of the
• 24:23
  Christian church. Simply. So let me just start
• 24:30
  there, mainly because like what I'm about to
• 24:32
  say, like what I was about to say would have
• 24:35
  been potentially problematic without that setup.
• 24:37
  Okay, yeah, because essentially what universal
• 24:40
  Universalism is as a theology or as a worldview,
• 24:45
  which is more true. I I don't know how many Students
• 24:50
  of let me say I don't know how many active Christians
• 24:54
  like daily daily life Christians versus philosophical
• 24:58
  theologians, which are two different categories
• 25:00
  sometimes Because there's a lot of studying there's
• 25:07
  a lot of people that study theology that are
• 25:10
  not Christian. True, yeah, true. Because it's
• 25:15
  a discipline. You know what I mean? Like they
• 25:17
  might be led to Christ in the process, but anyways,
• 25:22
  I think you find more universalism. in the philosophical
• 25:27
  theology camp versus the practical daily life
• 25:31
  Christian, like the single mom with three kids,
• 25:35
  you know what I mean? Like universalism's not
• 25:37
  really part of their life. It's not even something
• 25:39
  they've probably even heard of most of the time.
• 25:41
  Yeah. Yeah. And it's not necessarily like a Sunday
• 25:43
  morning topic. No. Unless your church's name
• 25:47
  is universalism. Then it's probably a core. Right.
• 25:51
  Yeah. Which is essentially like like a all dogs
• 25:55
  go to heaven idea. Yeah, honestly, good callback
• 25:58
  too. It's essentially, yeah, universalism is
• 26:01
  basically the idea that all roads lead to Rome,
• 26:03
  right? All roads lead to heaven. Or as Finding
• 26:06
  Nemo says, all drains lead to the ocean. There
• 26:10
  you go. Yeah. So, yeah, so universalism is the
• 26:13
  idea that God's grace covers all things and that
• 26:17
  any reflection of God in any separate culture
• 26:22
  Is all actually pointing to the same thing. Yeah,
• 26:25
  so it's kind of like a big melting pot where
• 26:28
  we all just kind of see different aspects of
• 26:31
  The one true God and all kind of as a collective
• 26:33
  comes together Yeah, and it's it's one of those
• 26:37
  things where it can philosophically get confusing
• 26:40
  sure and we're probably gonna get in touch on
• 26:42
  that a little bit too Yeah, where because there's
• 26:45
  elements that it takes and bases off of that
• 26:47
  are true but I argue are taken out of context.
• 26:53
  Yeah and I went really broad intentionally because
• 26:56
  the fact is is there is a version of universalism
• 27:01
  that is intentionally disciplined in a way where
• 27:06
  people that are active studyers of theology and
• 27:11
  not just like lay people like just church attenders
• 27:15
  that you know people that are that are maybe
• 27:19
  more academic. There are people that I've known
• 27:23
  that are in this category that it's like they're
• 27:28
  hung up on something. And usually it's a person
• 27:31
  that they know that causes them to then, or an
• 27:35
  experience that they've had that causes them
• 27:38
  to say, well, I feel like my viewpoint ends up
• 27:43
  landing in a universalism eschatology or end
• 27:48
  times view. Because of like I could actually
• 27:53
  pinpoint it like because of this reason this
• 27:56
  person This idea this experience that I had.
• 27:59
  Yeah And I think most of that comes down to a
• 28:03
  situation that you've actually encountered Like
• 28:06
  I think a lot of our core theology is shaped
• 28:09
  by that specifically Yeah, I mean even I remember
• 28:13
  when I was in high school and Some might laugh.
• 28:17
  I remember it too. You remember me being in high
• 28:19
  school? That's crazy. I believe it though. And
• 28:25
  having conversations about Arminianism and Calvinism.
• 28:28
  I didn't have those in high school. I was a weird
• 28:31
  kid. I've always had this obsession with theology,
• 28:35
  apparently. That's awesome. Like in church or
• 28:38
  in high school? Both. Well, you were homeschooled.
• 28:41
  Yeah. And then I did like this co -op. like semi
• 28:45
  -private school -ish thing. It's a hard thing
• 28:48
  to explain. But yes, I'd have that with my teachers,
• 28:52
  I'd have that with my friends. It was just a
• 28:54
  conversation that was ongoing for about a year.
• 28:57
  The high school that I went to was a public high
• 29:00
  school, literally named after the city we live
• 29:02
  in. So I went to the most public high school
• 29:06
  possible. That was not even a topic. Like if
• 29:09
  you just name the name of our city, that's where
• 29:11
  I went to high school. That's it. Which is like,
• 29:13
  that's like the most like public high school
• 29:16
  you can get. Yeah. So I went to the most public
• 29:19
  high school. I love that. So no one was talking
• 29:23
  about that. That's fair. Which I mean, I understand,
• 29:26
  it's a unique experience. Even the philosophy
• 29:28
  students weren't there. They were like, no. No,
• 29:31
  yeah, they were more, they would be more, what
• 29:33
  would you call it? Socratic? Yeah. Aristotelian?
• 29:37
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is still an interesting
• 29:40
  place to be. Pescetarian? They don't eat fish,
• 29:43
  or they only eat fish? Both. Both? It depends
• 29:49
  on what day you asked them. Yeah, probably. High
• 29:51
  school kids, I mean. Fickle. Flip -flop. But
• 29:54
  yeah, I remember, because a lot of people that
• 29:56
  I would talk to you about this, and I'm talking
• 29:58
  about adults specifically, they would otherwise
• 30:02
  be a Calvinist, but there is one question that
• 30:05
  they wrestled with. that forced them to be an
• 30:08
  Arminian. Does that make sense? It does, we haven't
• 30:11
  had this discussion. And I don't really mean
• 30:13
  to get into that at all. It's not the point of
• 30:17
  this today. Should we do a Calvin Arminian conversation?
• 30:23
  I guess we could. I'm in a weird place because
• 30:26
  I feel like I've got problems with both of them.
• 30:28
  I think we should all have problems with everything.
• 30:33
  Honestly, I know what you're saying though Like
• 30:37
  there's a there's a middle ground. Yeah, and
• 30:41
  I think that's part of it is like this anytime
• 30:44
  you go This is the doctrine that we believe and
• 30:48
  it's named after a guy There's gonna be some
• 30:51
  problematic stuff pause for a second Yeah, yeah,
• 30:56
  so I think for me it's like yeah anytime that
• 30:59
  happens it's like There's probably some good
• 31:02
  stuff in there, but I think we all probably land
• 31:04
  somewhere in the middle of that. Yeah. Right.
• 31:08
  And yeah, that's like the, like the, so just
• 31:11
  to say it simply, there was the early church
• 31:15
  in Acts that eventually becomes the Catholic
• 31:17
  church that in like 1050 breaks off Eastern Orthodox
• 31:21
  and Catholic church. And then somewhere in the
• 31:26
  1500s, you have the break off of the Catholic
• 31:29
  Church where the Eastern Orthodox is still going.
• 31:32
  There's also like Ethiopian Church over here
• 31:34
  as well. But then like just the generic like
• 31:38
  kind of how probably most people listening to
• 31:41
  this where their tradition would be. Then you
• 31:43
  have like the Catholic Church in the 1500s breaks
• 31:46
  off with Martin Luther into Protestantism, which
• 31:52
  at that time basically becomes the Anglican Church.
• 31:55
  which is a precursor to like the Methodists and
• 31:58
  the Lutherans and the Wesleyan tradition, the
• 32:01
  great awakening in the 18 and 1900s that comes
• 32:04
  over into the U .S. And then most of the U .S.,
• 32:09
  like the Western Church is Protestant, which
• 32:13
  would be that break off of the Catholic Church.
• 32:16
  A lot of them will call themselves Puritans at
• 32:18
  that time. Yeah. Yeah. And so at that, at the
• 32:20
  time of Martin Luther, you also have John Calvin.
• 32:23
  Yeah. And so you have basically after the Protestant
• 32:28
  break off of Catholics, then Protestantism breaks
• 32:32
  off into free will and predestination. Yeah.
• 32:36
  So that's the Calvinist versus Wesleyan view,
• 32:39
  really. But that's kind of like, yeah. So that's
• 32:44
  a little bit of like a really fast church history.
• 32:47
  Quick church history. Crash Course. Yeah, it
• 32:49
  was good. Crash Course. Maybe we should do a
• 32:51
  whole episode on that and break that down. or
• 32:53
  maybe that could be kind of fun or maybe that
• 32:55
  was just that was enough. I feel like that's
• 32:58
  I'm good. I do want to go into like the at some
• 33:00
  point that Eastern Orthodox break off. It's within
• 33:03
  the scope of our podcast to talk about those
• 33:06
  kinds of things though. As far as church history
• 33:09
  go. Just say no please don't do that in the comments.
• 33:11
  Or say yes please do that. Or say nothing and
• 33:14
  we'll keep going. Yeah we will. Yeah, so like
• 33:18
  that's that's kind of where we are church history
• 33:21
  wise so yeah, and I think most people also Again,
• 33:25
  I think we're doing a decent amount of setup
• 33:28
  intentionally. Yeah to kind of go like I think
• 33:30
  for the most part it's like Like pre IKEA well,
• 33:35
  and then even with IKEA It's like you just kind
• 33:37
  of went like a couch is a couch. It just kind
• 33:40
  of exists You don't realize that like somebody
• 33:42
  had to like shape every part of it design every
• 33:45
  piece of it It had to be torn down or put together
• 33:49
  or like it didn't just come as one thing Yeah,
• 33:53
  and I think sometimes we go like well I grew
• 33:55
  up in church or I went to church and I just got
• 33:59
  here and this is what's always been here Yeah,
• 34:01
  it's like no, I mean there's at least 18 to 1900
• 34:05
  years years of Like organization and then separation
• 34:13
  organization and separation. And there's a bunch
• 34:15
  of things happening all at once. So I think we
• 34:17
  just kind of go like now and early church. Everything
• 34:20
  else in the middle is just like didn't happen.
• 34:22
  Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I think
• 34:24
  it's important sometimes to be like, hey, there's
• 34:26
  a bunch of stuff that happened that got us to
• 34:28
  where we are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And acknowledging
• 34:32
  like the age of certain things. And I think with
• 34:34
  a lot of them kind of bring it back into universalism.
• 34:38
  It's A lot of it stems from, there's a question
• 34:42
  people are wrestling with. Sure. And this is
• 34:44
  a conclusion for what they've wrestled with.
• 34:47
  Yeah. Or a conclusion of where they're wrestling
• 34:49
  at. Yeah, which would be like, I mean a good
• 34:53
  example is like, if someone knows somebody who
• 34:56
  they potentially struggle with something outwardly
• 34:59
  that's listed in the Bible as a sin. Yeah. Like
• 35:02
  let's just go straight to that. Yeah. They are
• 35:06
  like, this person is the most loving person that
• 35:09
  I know. They're like, they're great. They still
• 35:11
  like, you know, they still like love Jesus. They
• 35:15
  read their Bible. They do all the, but most of
• 35:18
  the church would say that they're actively in
• 35:20
  sin. And you're like, okay, well, there's still
• 35:23
  something to reconcile there because. that could
• 35:27
  also be true of a bunch of people that maybe
• 35:30
  have something just as big or maybe worse that's
• 35:33
  more hidden than out in public, right? Absolutely.
• 35:36
  And so then because what they're dealing with
• 35:39
  is a public and worldly conversation, and the
• 35:44
  culture is talking about it, then all of a sudden
• 35:47
  you kinda go like, well, I feel like I know them
• 35:49
  pretty well, and I feel like God wouldn't damn
• 35:52
  them to hell. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.
• 35:55
  And that a lot of times can lead you to something
• 35:57
  like universalism. It's true. Where you're like,
• 36:01
  I just can't reconcile that the Lord wouldn't
• 36:03
  save them. Yeah. And then I feel like once you
• 36:07
  get to that point though, like salvation doesn't
• 36:12
  carry as much weight anymore. Like if you're
• 36:15
  truly a universalist and you're, it really would
• 36:18
  be your eschatology. Yeah, yeah. Which is your
• 36:21
  belief on what happens at the end. Yes. So like
• 36:25
  what you believe happens at the end is the like
• 36:28
  the theological terminology would be eschatology.
• 36:31
  Yeah. Or end time study. So it's like that type
• 36:34
  of thing. It's like what you believe happens
• 36:35
  at the end is that grace covers everybody. But
• 36:39
  then you you're kind of like then you have to
• 36:41
  like poke at people with universalism and go
• 36:43
  like so you believe that every single person
• 36:46
  know just the good ones. What qualifies that?
• 36:49
  Yeah. There has to be a qualifier for that. It's
• 36:51
  not just people that you think, because then
• 36:53
  you're the judge. Yeah. So that's kind of a difficult
• 36:57
  thing with. It's difficult. Yeah. Yeah. And I
• 36:59
  mean, I think we and it's one where I think it's
• 37:02
  easy for a lot of people, especially when it
• 37:04
  comes to universalism to kind of tie in to tie
• 37:07
  up this last bit of this is we can get callous
• 37:12
  and look at it as a blanket thing. Be like, oh,
• 37:14
  yeah, you're wrong. This is what it says. Let's
• 37:16
  move on. Right. It's like, well, you can't be
• 37:18
  that callous. Because here's someone who's actually
• 37:21
  wrestling with an idea, so let's go in there
• 37:25
  and let's wrestle with the idea together. I think
• 37:28
  that's the right response. In the same way we
• 37:31
  were talking about with even with the Nicolaitans
• 37:32
  recently, it's not right for us to point and
• 37:36
  be like, oh, you're wrong because of this. It's
• 37:38
  like, no, let's go wrestle with that together.
• 37:40
  That's what the church does. That's discipleship.
• 37:43
  Well, and that's where when Jesus says they'll
• 37:45
  know you by your love for one another, that doesn't
• 37:47
  mean you're... Accepting of everything it's like
• 37:50
  that's not what love is like love means that
• 37:53
  you're working things out together Yeah, and
• 37:55
  you're like working on things together You're
• 37:58
  intentionally trying to grow and get better and
• 38:01
  conform not to your truth, but to the reality
• 38:04
  of the gospel so like that's that is one thing
• 38:08
  where like there is a lot of concessions you
• 38:11
  have to make if you hold a universalist theology
• 38:14
  or eschatology because Yeah, it is things like,
• 38:19
  well, then what are the barriers? It's like,
• 38:22
  well, then there are no barriers. But then once
• 38:25
  you start going down that rabbit trail, it's
• 38:27
  a little bit like, well, at some point you end
• 38:31
  up back at worship no other gods beside me. And
• 38:36
  I feel like if you have an end times theology
• 38:40
  or worldview or belief that Everybody no matter
• 38:46
  what is covered by the grace of God and they're
• 38:49
  just gonna be taken in at some point that at
• 38:52
  some point when you back up Your theology is
• 38:57
  gonna be laced with worship and it's gonna end
• 39:01
  up being accepting of worship to other gods because
• 39:06
  It just is I don't know how else to say that
• 39:10
  does that make sense? No, it does I mean because
• 39:12
  what you're saying is At some point, you've got
• 39:15
  to answer the question, is everything that God
• 39:21
  said really it? Or can I accept anything anybody
• 39:25
  says? Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do.
• 39:29
  Yeah, because, I mean, there are hard lines that
• 39:31
  the Bible draws, and so we've got to ask, like,
• 39:34
  well, how hard are those lines? And if those
• 39:36
  lines are softer, then it's like, well, then
• 39:38
  you can go outside of them. Yeah, and specifically,
• 39:41
  if you've come to a universalist eschatology
• 39:44
  because of someone that you know, that you feel
• 39:49
  like loves Jesus, and well, their sin may potentially
• 39:53
  be the worship, the outward expression of the
• 39:57
  worship of another deity. Yeah. And that's where
• 40:00
  you're like, well, how do you judge that? Yeah.
• 40:02
  It's like, well, against the... Against the word
• 40:05
  like that's what that's that's the whole thing.
• 40:08
  Yeah, like that So like there are things like
• 40:10
  that where it's like you start to get into bigger
• 40:13
  topics and you're like, well What is like where
• 40:16
  does this come from? It's like, yeah, I don't
• 40:19
  know how political we want to get but like there
• 40:22
  are certain things like that that are like Like
• 40:24
  downline you gotta identify it. Yeah, it's like
• 40:27
  you kind of grab it and go like all right. Well
• 40:28
  that downline was done as worship, it was used
• 40:37
  to worship the god Molech. And you're like, well,
• 40:40
  okay, but that's not what they're doing. But
• 40:43
  where did it come from? And if that's the tradition
• 40:46
  of it, then like, you can't redeem a tradition
• 40:50
  of an action that is worshiping another god.
• 40:55
  I don't think there's redemption in that. Do
• 40:59
  you know what I mean? I do know what you mean,
• 41:00
  yeah. Like I understand like, I understand if
• 41:06
  you believe that, let's say, R &B music came
• 41:10
  specifically from an African tribe that was using
• 41:15
  that specific sound of music to worship a demonic
• 41:21
  deity, right, which that's a very loaded statement.
• 41:25
  But if you believe that, which most people do,
• 41:29
  like that's... kind of historically the origin
• 41:31
  of where it came from. But then you jump all
• 41:34
  the way to now and you go like, okay, well that
• 41:37
  was like 50, 60 years ago. And you go, but now
• 41:40
  some kid just in his room is just has a 808 pad
• 41:44
  and it's just like making a beat and then singing
• 41:48
  lyrical worship to God is like, do I believe
• 41:50
  that that is worshiping that deity? To be honest,
• 41:55
  I don't really know. Yeah. But what I'm saying
• 41:58
  is that's a little bit different than killing
• 42:03
  a baby. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely.
• 42:06
  So at no point does where killing a baby was
• 42:10
  a sacrifice to a false god, killing a baby today,
• 42:18
  that's not eventually going to be a sacrifice
• 42:22
  to Yahweh. The other thing we can compare that
• 42:27
  to is like, what's the framework that God outlines
• 42:31
  for us? And I remember I've said this on a previous
• 42:34
  episode, but I think it's worth saying again,
• 42:37
  where when we look through the, I'll say the
• 42:41
  Hebrew Bible, we look through the Old Testament,
• 42:44
  there's a huge distinction between how the Hebrew
• 42:48
  mind thought and how the Greek mind thinks or
• 42:51
  thought, and how we think. our thoughts are why
• 42:55
  and what, but the Hebrew mind was how. And so
• 43:00
  when we see like, well, what does God do in the
• 43:03
  Old Testament? He never says, this is what I'm
• 43:06
  doing, this is why I'm doing it. Those things
• 43:08
  are in there, but he demonstrates it by showing
• 43:10
  you how he does it. So it's like, oh, well, God
• 43:13
  doesn't just say, I'm faithful. He is, but he
• 43:16
  shows that he's faithful. He doesn't just say,
• 43:19
  I enact justice. or judgment. It's like he shows
• 43:22
  you that he does. Right. And he shows you why
• 43:25
  he does that. But it's all the question of asking
• 43:27
  how. Yeah. And so when we think about that, let's
• 43:30
  just say like the killing of a baby. And it's
• 43:33
  like, well, does that fit within the framework
• 43:35
  of how God has demonstrated who he is? Right.
• 43:38
  Well, it doesn't. Right. And there's a lot of
• 43:40
  specific examples of that. Yeah, absolutely.
• 43:43
  I mean, going back to Abraham and Isaac. Yeah.
• 43:45
  Yeah. And that's a lot of a lot of people use
• 43:48
  that passage as like See, what kind of God would
• 43:52
  tell Abraham to sacrifice his baby? Molech. All
• 43:56
  of them. Yeah. Actually. Yeah. All of the other
• 44:00
  gods. You know which god stopped him and said,
• 44:03
  hey, by the way, I'm different. I don't actually
• 44:05
  want you to do that. Only Yahweh. Yeah. He's
• 44:07
  the only one. Yeah. So actually what you're saying
• 44:10
  as a... How would you worship Yahweh? What's
• 44:13
  funny on top of that, it's like, this is the
• 44:15
  funny thing that's within the framework of who
• 44:17
  Yahweh is, is he didn't just say, no, stop, I
• 44:20
  actually don't want that. He said, no, here's
• 44:23
  the sacrifice that I do want. Yeah. So not only
• 44:26
  he says like, hey, that's what everyone else
• 44:27
  is telling you. I'm saying, no, that's not it.
• 44:29
  Right. I'm saying this is what I want instead.
• 44:32
  Yeah. Yeah. And as a precursor to like, eventually
• 44:36
  there won't be sacrifices. Right. But this is
• 44:40
  step one. Yeah. So all the other gods, they're
• 44:43
  telling you, sacrifice the most precious thing
• 44:45
  to you. I just told you to do that, and that
• 44:48
  was super normal to you. The problem is, is nobody
• 44:51
  knows the history of that. So they just go, how
• 44:54
  could you worship a god who would tell the guy
• 44:58
  to sacrifice his own son? Okay, so you don't
• 45:01
  know anything about history. Because that wasn't
• 45:03
  weird for Abraham to hear that. It wasn't weird
• 45:05
  for Abraham to do that. Also, what you're saying...
• 45:08
  is who He is. He's the God who doesn't ask you
• 45:13
  to do that. That's actually the whole point of
• 45:16
  the story. So you don't know the history of the
• 45:19
  context of the world they lived in and what was
• 45:22
  going on culturally, which is not much different
• 45:26
  today, and what Yahweh was doing as a how in
• 45:31
  the middle of that. Here's how you worship Me.
• 45:34
  You think it's like this because that's what
• 45:36
  everybody does. But it's not that. It's this.
• 45:41
  So yeah. Yeah. So it's a beautiful concept and
• 45:44
  that's what I love. But I think it's important
• 45:47
  for us to approach Scripture that way. Right.
• 45:49
  Because we have to think how it was written.
• 45:52
  Sure. Who was it written to? That's how they're
• 45:54
  thinking. That's how we're supposed to think
• 45:56
  about it. Yeah. And there's a lot more I could
• 45:59
  say on that. But yeah. Let me answer the other
• 46:02
  side of this. Okay. NDEs. Near -death experiences.
• 46:06
  Yeah. So there's an important thing in this,
• 46:09
  and so I'm gonna explain what it is, but I'm
• 46:12
  also gonna explain two other things and what
• 46:14
  those are. Okay. Within that, only to help us
• 46:17
  identify and narrow in like, what do I mean when
• 46:19
  I say near -death experience? And then after
• 46:21
  two other things, four other things followed
• 46:22
  by six other things. You're not wrong. So get
• 46:29
  your notebooks out. Because I've got mine out.
• 46:33
  I used up the rest of this notepad writing all
• 46:37
  my notes for this. I'm here for it. So yeah.
• 46:41
  So what I want to start with before I describe
• 46:43
  or define what an NDE is, I'm just going to call
• 46:46
  it that because it's much easier. First, I want
• 46:50
  to explain. We have acronyms for a reason. We
• 46:51
  do. Easier. Oftentimes these things get confused
• 46:57
  and that's why I'm like, let's let's define them
• 46:58
  now do it So the first one is an OBE or an out
• 47:02
  -of -body experience out -of -body experience.
• 47:05
  Yeah in Let me say this as well. There's a lot
• 47:09
  of setup for this since we haven't talked about
• 47:11
  this before true This is gonna sound weird good
• 47:16
  to the people that don't already look into this
• 47:18
  stuff. Yeah, absolutely to most people listening.
• 47:21
  This is all like That's weird. Yeah. Why would
• 47:23
  you even be talking about this? Yeah. Yeah. And
• 47:25
  so I think it's important. And actually, it's
• 47:27
  funny. I slipped it into one of our one of our
• 47:29
  songs several episodes ago. OK. And I was I was
• 47:33
  curious to see how it would. I mean, at this
• 47:36
  point when we're recording, no one's heard it
• 47:37
  yet. They don't know that. They don't know. You
• 47:40
  have heard it. But so the the or this is your
• 47:44
  first episode and you've heard nothing we've
• 47:45
  done. So welcome. Yeah. Glad you're here. Glad
• 47:48
  you're here. Grab your notebooks. Are you still
• 47:49
  here? And your gushers. And your gushers. Not
• 47:53
  candy. Your jaws will thank you later. Your gums
• 47:55
  will love it. Your gums will love it. Did we
• 47:57
  say gums or jaw? I don't know. It's all the same
• 47:59
  thing. One of them. No, they're different. OBE,
• 48:03
  out of body experience. Well first, I wanted
• 48:06
  to say that the line that I slipped in was soul
• 48:10
  colliding with the body. Oh yeah. Was that also
• 48:15
  like the death cab feel? Yeah. Okay. Absolutely.
• 48:17
  So I don't know if I caught, I think I did catch
• 48:20
  it a little bit, but I was also like, this is
• 48:21
  very like soul meets body. Yes. Death count.
• 48:24
  Which was kind of a, it was kind of an ode to
• 48:26
  that. But in a very biblical way. And so the
• 48:33
  Bible teaches that we're soul, mind and spirit.
• 48:37
  Sorry, body and spirit. I said three things.
• 48:42
  And so when we look at that, it's like, okay,
• 48:44
  so we are, there is, I'm going to use more worldly
• 48:50
  language here and say there's a consciousness.
• 48:53
  Or we Christians would say there's a soul or
• 48:56
  spirit. And then the other side is our body,
• 48:59
  our physical body that we operate every day.
• 49:04
  Yeah. And some would call it a meat suit. A meat
• 49:06
  suit. And so there is a distinction between those
• 49:13
  two things. Yes. And so what is being described
• 49:18
  in these experiences is a separation between
• 49:21
  those two things. Yeah. And we often think of
• 49:24
  that as like three or four things. but it can
• 49:27
  kind of be brought all down to two things. Yeah,
• 49:32
  some would argue with that and say there's actually
• 49:33
  three, which that's a whole other conversation.
• 49:36
  Right, and one we're not really having. Right
• 49:37
  now we're just focusing on two. Yes. Let's pretend
• 49:39
  tonight that it's two things. Yeah, for the sake
• 49:42
  of this conversation. So there's our body, our
• 49:45
  meat suit that we're controlling, and then there's
• 49:49
  our soul, our consciousness, that exists apart
• 49:52
  from our body, but is possessing our body. Right.
• 49:56
  And so an out of body experience is a self or
• 50:01
  consciousness separating from the physical body
• 50:03
  and it may occur spontaneously or be induced.
• 50:07
  So those are experiences that can just kind of
• 50:12
  happen. Yeah. Or we can force them to happen.
• 50:17
  We can force ourself out of our body. Sure. And
• 50:22
  I know that a lot of people like Mm, I hear that.
• 50:26
  And so I do want to say I'm going to jump a little
• 50:28
  bit. It's scary to say you could be forced out
• 50:31
  of your body. It is scary. Versus you can...
• 50:35
  You can choose it. Choose to, yeah. Yeah. And
• 50:38
  even with that, there are important factors in
• 50:41
  that that we will talk about. Yeah. But first,
• 50:44
  I always want to base this against our anchor,
• 50:47
  which is the Bible. Yes. And so, okay, do we
• 50:49
  see examples of an OBE? in the Bible. An out
• 50:53
  -of -body experience. Yeah. And we do. Yeah.
• 50:56
  And so the one that I specifically have, we see
• 50:59
  it in Isaiah, we see it in Daniel, but specifically
• 51:01
  the one that I have is Ezekiel 8 .3, and it says,
• 51:05
  the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven,
• 51:09
  and in visions of God, he took me to Jerusalem.
• 51:12
  He took me to Jerusalem. That's the end of that.
• 51:14
  And so we see it's like, he says he's taken up.
• 51:17
  He's lifted up. Between earth and heaven so he's
• 51:21
  in this weird middle place. Yeah So he's out
• 51:24
  of his body which in some ways and we can get
• 51:27
  to this later Yeah, we we could also categorize
• 51:30
  that as the second heaven. Yes So if you ever
• 51:34
  thought about first heaven second heaven third
• 51:37
  heaven no seventh heaven Just three heavens the
• 51:43
  second heaven would be that Present and spirit
• 51:48
  only body disconnected. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
• 51:52
  Yeah, so yeah, and so the Yeah, I'll get into
• 51:55
  that later. Actually. I want to save that So
• 51:58
  the other one that I'm gonna describe before
• 52:01
  I get to near -death experiences deathbed experiences
• 52:04
  deathbed Experiences and so those are reported
• 52:07
  by dying individuals shortly before death off
• 52:12
  before death often It often involves visions
• 52:16
  of deceased loved ones or spiritual beings most
• 52:19
  common in hospice or end -of -life settings.
• 52:22
  Sometimes, witnesses are partially shared by
• 52:25
  others, which they call shared death experiences.
• 52:29
  And so, I think the most shining example we see
• 52:33
  of this, and I chose that word for a little bit
• 52:35
  of fun, is the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7.
• 52:38
  Yeah, there you go. Where it's like, okay, he
• 52:41
  sees Heaven opening up and he sees the he sees
• 52:45
  divine beings in front of him. So it's like that's
• 52:47
  that's the deathbed experience That's what he's
• 52:49
  seeing we see that in Scripture. Yeah, he's not
• 52:52
  the only one. He's just the I think the best
• 52:53
  example Yeah, yeah, I also think of the shepherds
• 52:56
  on the hillside Which that's a whole different
• 52:58
  thing, which is kind of interesting. Yeah, that
• 53:00
  is right. It's like they're Like they're the
• 53:05
  veil is being pulled back for them. Yeah, they're
• 53:07
  not necessarily Entering into it, right? You
• 53:11
  know what I mean? So it's almost on both ends.
• 53:13
  It's kind of like slightly different. It is.
• 53:16
  But there is that idea of like you're being opened
• 53:20
  up, the veil is being thin or torn. Yeah. So
• 53:24
  you can see into that other world. But you know,
• 53:26
  as we've like gone through these different martyrs
• 53:29
  and things like that, if you look at old paintings
• 53:32
  and imagery of martyrdom, a lot of times you'll
• 53:35
  see not just with Stephen, but you'll see with
• 53:39
  other paintings and just depiction that as a
• 53:43
  saint is being killed, that a lot of times it's
• 53:46
  depicted that they, it's almost like there's
• 53:48
  a heavenly thing that they only can see. So it's
• 53:52
  almost like there's this alluding to the idea
• 53:56
  that when you die for Christ, then you see heaven
• 54:02
  and you're at peace as you're dying. That's almost
• 54:08
  like the door opens. Yeah, and a lot of the martyrs,
• 54:11
  right? And it's also common for a lot of people
• 54:14
  that die and go to heaven. Yeah Yeah, yeah, which
• 54:18
  is kind of a loaded statement. But yeah, it is
• 54:20
  it is Yeah, I and go to heaven is a very there's
• 54:23
  a lot to do. There's a lot to that Yeah, it's
• 54:25
  a very 2d description that we use often. It's
• 54:28
  true There's a lot of things that we say for
• 54:31
  simplicity, but isn't theologically, correct?
• 54:33
  Yeah, and it's much more complex than that. Yeah
• 54:36
  We're trying to keep it easier as we can while
• 54:38
  also diving into it, right? But so okay, so that
• 54:41
  brings us to nd So how are these different than
• 54:43
  those other two near -death experiences near
• 54:46
  -death? Yeah So these are experienced by people
• 54:48
  who have come close to clinical death, but survived
• 54:51
  usually triggered by cardiac arrest trauma drowning
• 54:55
  severe illness or surgical complications So essentially
• 55:00
  they almost died, but they didn't right? Yeah,
• 55:05
  and The this which Yeah, the biggest one that
• 55:11
  I want to bring up with that is we see with Paul
• 55:14
  and acts 14 at his stoning Okay, which I don't
• 55:17
  know if you want to talk about that at all. But
• 55:19
  are we here? We're kind of there without actually
• 55:22
  fully being there, but it's kind of like okay,
• 55:24
  that's our That's our biblical anchor in, this
• 55:27
  isn't just something people are talking about
• 55:29
  today. I think it's important to be like, this
• 55:31
  is happening because people are talking about
• 55:33
  it. And there's a lot of reports on it. But for
• 55:38
  us Christians out there, it's also anchored in
• 55:41
  the Bible because the Bible talks about it. It
• 55:43
  doesn't use those words, obviously, but these
• 55:46
  concepts and ideas are shared with people today
• 55:49
  and people then. Yeah, and that's like, Yeah,
• 55:55
  do you have anything else you wanna define before
• 55:58
  we, because when we're talking about this, I'm
• 56:00
  like, yeah, I do wanna talk about access. Okay,
• 56:03
  I can keep going a little bit when we come back
• 56:05
  to it. Yeah, let's give more of the setup. Just
• 56:10
  because the Paul conversation is, it's maybe
• 56:14
  something that people didn't realize was happening
• 56:17
  or realized was a viewpoint of what did happen.
• 56:21
  Yeah. You know? Maybe let's continue to set it
• 56:25
  up and then we can get into Paul. Okay, that's
• 56:27
  good. Because there's actually a precursor to
• 56:29
  this that is a little bit more biblically overarching.
• 56:35
  Yeah, I think so. I think so. Do you know? I
• 56:39
  don't, I have an idea, but I don't know exactly
• 56:41
  where you're going. Okay, continue with the setup.
• 56:43
  That's part of the fun with this. Continue the
• 56:46
  setup. So kind of jump into our question is do
• 56:49
  near -death experiences prove universalism. So
• 56:53
  let me kind of bring up where does that question
• 56:55
  come from. Sure. Because it obviously comes from
• 56:58
  somewhere. Yeah, yeah. Like many things. Right.
• 57:00
  And so when we talk about these cases of near
• 57:05
  -death experiences, percentage -wise, there are
• 57:09
  things that people see and experience that are
• 57:12
  most common, and then some things that are uncommon,
• 57:15
  and then some things that we would call anomalous.
• 57:18
  And so With that, the vast majority, I would
• 57:23
  say, of those that are reported, the percentage
• 57:26
  I often see is around 80%. Of what? Of people
• 57:31
  that have near -death experiences. Okay. They
• 57:33
  report feeling this overwhelming sense of love,
• 57:39
  peace, and comfort. Okay. Whereas around 20%.
• 57:43
  Yeah. report feeling this hellish experience.
• 57:49
  So that right there is actually, in some ways,
• 57:52
  challenges the question of universalism. But
• 57:56
  it's like, okay, so that's where that idea comes
• 57:58
  from. And if we focus on that 80 % first, around
• 58:02
  80%, it's like, okay, so they're experiencing
• 58:05
  something, and it's overwhelmingly positive.
• 58:09
  So it's like, okay. Let's look at that. Like
• 58:11
  what are they what are they experiencing? Yeah
• 58:14
  before we get into their side Yeah, so we're
• 58:16
  saying 80 % of people who have near -death experiences
• 58:19
  report back that they had an overwhelming sense
• 58:22
  of love and the place that they were in was Better
• 58:27
  than the place that they had come from. Yeah.
• 58:30
  Yeah. Yeah. So what are their experiences like?
• 58:34
  Good question. Yeah, so Think for me, it's like
• 58:39
  so that's the feeling that they get sure so me
• 58:42
  being me. I'm like, okay. So what did they see?
• 58:45
  Okay. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, and so
• 58:48
  about 75 % Report seeing a being or beings. Okay,
• 58:54
  and about 25 % don't report seeing a being Okay,
• 58:58
  so here's what what I want to make very clear
• 59:01
  in this right now and this is kind of like this
• 59:05
  weird like Going back to Aristotelian logic a
• 59:08
  little bit is like, okay, what's a contradiction?
• 59:11
  Sure. So because it isn't reported. Yeah doesn't
• 59:14
  mean it wasn't there. It just means it wasn't
• 59:17
  reported Yeah, of course now there is a distinction
• 59:20
  if they're like, oh there wasn't anyone there,
• 59:22
  right? But then there's also difference say Like
• 59:26
  I didn't see anything or they just don't bring
• 59:27
  it up. Yeah, so it's like, okay, let's keep that
• 59:30
  in mind Yeah, but even then it's like, okay,
• 59:32
  so an overwhelming majority again say they see
• 59:35
  something. So what do they see? So these are
• 59:41
  approximate percentages based on these cases.
• 59:45
  And some of these percentages will overlap because
• 59:48
  people see multiple beings sometimes. So about
• 59:51
  60 % see a being of light, a non -specific being
• 59:55
  of light. 30 % report seeing deceased loved ones,
• 1:00:01
  around 20 % report seeing Jesus specifically,
• 1:00:05
  10 % angels, 20 % spirit guides, about 10 % scribes,
• 1:00:11
  and 5 % dark beings, or malicious or malintent
• 1:00:15
  beings. Even within the 80 %? Yeah. Okay. Which
• 1:00:18
  is interesting. It is interesting. Yeah, that
• 1:00:24
  is interesting. Yeah. So here's where it gets
• 1:00:29
  a little bit interesting. More interesting. It
• 1:00:33
  just keeps getting more interesting. I'm gonna
• 1:00:35
  say that a lot because I think it just gets more
• 1:00:38
  and more interesting. Keep going. So I should
• 1:00:40
  probably stop saying that. No, because right
• 1:00:42
  now what we're talking about is essentially modern
• 1:00:45
  people having these experiences and them clinically
• 1:00:49
  being reported. Yes, yeah correct. So what's
• 1:00:56
  more interesting they're going on that? Yeah.
• 1:00:58
  Okay, so there's a hypothesis that people put
• 1:01:01
  forward a lot of researchers put forward Okay,
• 1:01:03
  and I will say at the front here. I guess we're
• 1:01:06
  not totally at the front anymore. We're kind
• 1:01:08
  of in it. Yeah That this is something that it
• 1:01:13
  isn't there's not a lot of research really done
• 1:01:14
  on this specifically because it's a fringe topic
• 1:01:17
  sure Infringe doesn't mean it's not true. It
• 1:01:20
  just means that it's not accepted by the mainstream
• 1:01:23
  Yeah, there's not a lot of money put into it.
• 1:01:26
  Correct. Yeah. So it's a lot of independent research.
• 1:01:29
  Right. And not a lot of funded research in this.
• 1:01:32
  Or it's funded research that the public doesn't
• 1:01:36
  know about. That's true. Until 50 years later.
• 1:01:40
  Yeah. Very true. That happens a lot. Yeah. It's
• 1:01:43
  like, yeah, like there's a bunch of CIA documents
• 1:01:46
  of different things like this where it's like,
• 1:01:50
  yeah, OK, they are studying it. They're just
• 1:01:52
  studying it for their own potentially really
• 1:01:54
  weird reasons yeah we'll find out about it in
• 1:01:57
  about 50 to 60 years yeah and then at that point
• 1:01:59
  somehow we won't care about it yeah because they'll
• 1:02:02
  be doing something weirder but the fact is is
• 1:02:04
  it's because we don't really understand it that's
• 1:02:07
  true it's hard to care about something you don't
• 1:02:09
  understand that's very true so yeah yeah so what's
• 1:02:14
  more interesting so what's The next thing that's
• 1:02:16
  more interesting. Well, the hypothesis that a
• 1:02:19
  lot of these researchers put forward, and some
• 1:02:22
  of it is biased. I'll say it's like the majority
• 1:02:28
  of these people that have done this research
• 1:02:29
  have a bias that they're trying to promote. OK,
• 1:02:33
  that makes sense. And so for me, it's like when
• 1:02:34
  I look at this, it's like, yeah, it's like, who's
• 1:02:37
  going to help? Try to eliminate their bias the
• 1:02:40
  best that they can. Yeah, and there's very few
• 1:02:41
  that do that. Yeah, sure Even the people that
• 1:02:44
  write their experiences like even they have a
• 1:02:47
  bias in what they're trying to say and so with
• 1:02:49
  that What I mean by that is that there's an argument
• 1:02:52
  that your near -death experience your NDE is
• 1:02:55
  shaped by your worldview or religion So if you're
• 1:02:59
  a Muslim, then you're gonna see Allah if you're
• 1:03:01
  a Buddhist, you're gonna see Krishna or Vishnu
• 1:03:06
  And if you're Christian, you're gonna see God
• 1:03:07
  or Jesus. Do you have an interesting example?
• 1:03:10
  Of that? The opposite. Oh, the opposite. I do
• 1:03:13
  actually. We're about to get into a lot of that.
• 1:03:16
  Okay. How much? Just tell me one. Well, let me
• 1:03:20
  get into there. Okay. Let me build up to that.
• 1:03:22
  Let me build up to that. And so, because I actually
• 1:03:25
  have an argument based on what I've seen in this.
• 1:03:30
  And there's a lot to look into. There's only
• 1:03:33
  so much time in a day. And so I disagree with
• 1:03:37
  that argument. And I think that our interpretation
• 1:03:41
  or their interpretations of their NDEs are shaped
• 1:03:43
  by the worldview. So I'm actually saying the
• 1:03:48
  reverse. Oh, the clinical explanation of the
• 1:03:52
  data that they're taking down from the individuals
• 1:03:54
  is shaped by the data tracker's worldview. Well,
• 1:03:59
  it's by the person giving the story. which is
• 1:04:02
  potentially not the NDE? The person who had the
• 1:04:06
  NDE. You're saying like in the form of a parable?
• 1:04:12
  Like they're just trying to express it? They're
• 1:04:13
  trying to tell you what they saw, and they're
• 1:04:15
  gonna use the language that they know. Got it.
• 1:04:17
  So it's shaped by the language they have. Yes.
• 1:04:20
  In the same way, let's take Revelation. John
• 1:04:23
  is describing what he's seeing in his vision,
• 1:04:28
  his OBE, his out of body experience. He's telling
• 1:04:31
  you what he's seeing based on what he knows.
• 1:04:34
  And what does he know? He knows the Old Testament.
• 1:04:36
  And so that's why we see all these parallels
• 1:04:38
  with Daniel and Isaiah and Ezekiel in other parts
• 1:04:41
  of scripture. It's like, well, because he's just
• 1:04:43
  telling you what he can compare it to. And so
• 1:04:47
  that's what he knows best to describe what he's
• 1:04:50
  seeing. Does that mean that's what he saw? Maybe.
• 1:04:55
  I mean, it makes the most sense that that is
• 1:04:59
  what he saw, or it's the lens that he's, not
• 1:05:03
  the lens, but it potentially is what he saw because
• 1:05:06
  of the true nature of all of that information.
• 1:05:11
  Possibly. But when we take into account the symbolic
• 1:05:15
  nature of it. Sure. As you were saying. Well,
• 1:05:17
  if I see something and it's like, I really don't
• 1:05:19
  know what that is, but let me give you the closest
• 1:05:22
  thing that would symbolize what I'm talking about.
• 1:05:24
  Yeah. So if I see something that's bright light,
• 1:05:27
  and actually we'll talk about this. There's an
• 1:05:28
  interesting verse about that. Okay. It's like,
• 1:05:30
  well, I'm going to say it's white. Sure. Was
• 1:05:33
  it white? No, but that's the best I can do. Yeah.
• 1:05:37
  Yeah. And so I think that when... Well, and white,
• 1:05:41
  to be fair, is the reflection of all colors.
• 1:05:46
  Yes. Yeah. So it's kind of the most complete
• 1:05:49
  idea. Yeah. Like if there is a white light, What
• 1:05:53
  you're experiencing is the non -absorption of
• 1:05:56
  color. Right. Which is... Yeah. But even that,
• 1:06:00
  it's interesting because it's like, well, is
• 1:06:01
  it that? Well, that's how we best understand
• 1:06:05
  it. But that's not really what it is. Yeah, but
• 1:06:07
  it's... You know what I mean? In the way that
• 1:06:09
  it's more true to say, it's not white. It's not
• 1:06:14
  absorbing any color. It's reflecting all colors.
• 1:06:16
  Yeah. So it's reflecting all things. Yeah. versus
• 1:06:23
  being the color white. Sure, yeah, sure. So it's
• 1:06:28
  like, that's kind of where I'm going with this,
• 1:06:29
  where it's like, so if someone is a Muslim and
• 1:06:31
  that's their background, when they see a being
• 1:06:35
  of light, they're gonna assume that it's Allah.
• 1:06:38
  Sure. Does that mean that's who that was? No,
• 1:06:42
  but that's how they'll best describe it, because
• 1:06:44
  that's what they know. That's the lens that they're
• 1:06:47
  viewing this experience from. I see what you're
• 1:06:49
  saying. So I think that's what we're... we see
• 1:06:51
  often times. And so with this, so there's a website
• 1:06:56
  called NDERF, or NDERF some people say. Basically
• 1:07:03
  it's Near Death Experience Research Foundation.
• 1:07:05
  And there are close to 6 ,000 cases or reports
• 1:07:11
  on there of near death experiences, out of body
• 1:07:15
  experiences, and other forms that are similar.
• 1:07:19
  and some deathbed experiences that people share.
• 1:07:22
  And the problem with that, because that's where
• 1:07:25
  we get a lot of these reports from people, even
• 1:07:28
  outside of that research, is it's just people
• 1:07:31
  posting. So it's like, okay, do we really know
• 1:07:34
  if these people are credible? Yeah, I get that.
• 1:07:36
  Not really, but... What can we do? Well, we can
• 1:07:40
  look at the core of what are most people saying.
• 1:07:43
  And so that's where I think some of the best
• 1:07:45
  research is done, is let's not take everyone
• 1:07:48
  at face value. Let's look at all of them, or
• 1:07:51
  the most that we can and stand, and let's compare
• 1:07:55
  them against each other. Which ones are actually,
• 1:07:58
  what are the commonalities between them? And
• 1:08:00
  what are the anomalies in those? Because for
• 1:08:04
  example, you'll have someone say one thing and
• 1:08:07
  then the person say the very opposite of that
• 1:08:09
  But there's only one of each right? It's like
• 1:08:11
  well, what do you do with that? Right? It's like
• 1:08:13
  well most time you just kind of throw it out
• 1:08:16
  sure or you question it at the very least Yeah,
• 1:08:18
  that makes sense. Yeah Yeah, but like so the
• 1:08:22
  interesting thing I think with these examples
• 1:08:24
  is There's a lot of There's a lot of speculation
• 1:08:28
  and what it could be And I heard recently this
• 1:08:33
  one guy who specifically goes and researches
• 1:08:38
  and analyzes and has conversations with people
• 1:08:41
  that have had NDEs and he documents them directly.
• 1:08:46
  Yeah, I love that. So that's a little bit different
• 1:08:48
  than like an anonymous post. Yeah. I mean, a
• 1:08:53
  lot of people do write their names to it, which
• 1:08:54
  is nice. But again, it's like, we're not diving
• 1:08:56
  into like, okay, who exactly is this person?
• 1:08:58
  But he tells a story of a guy who did grow up
• 1:09:04
  Muslim that the experience that he had was he
• 1:09:08
  was like, basically he was on the edge of this
• 1:09:12
  cliff, but it wasn't necessarily a cliff. And
• 1:09:15
  when he looked down to one side, what he saw
• 1:09:18
  was essentially a never -ending hole that it
• 1:09:23
  was best categorized as an abyss. And he was
• 1:09:28
  on this platform and he looked down to one side
• 1:09:30
  and saw that. But then when he looked up at what
• 1:09:33
  was ahead of him, he described the four -walled
• 1:09:38
  city where the walls were built out of bricks
• 1:09:43
  that were made of love. which categorically is
• 1:09:46
  difficult to explain. And he started describing
• 1:09:50
  the fact that this four -walled city had 12 gates.
• 1:09:57
  So what he's describing is the New Jerusalem
• 1:10:00
  from Revelation. But he grew up Muslim. So he's
• 1:10:06
  describing something that's in the book of Revelation
• 1:10:08
  in the Christian Bible. That he wouldn't have
• 1:10:12
  a reference to. He would have no reference to.
• 1:10:15
  And that was what he experienced in this near
• 1:10:19
  -death experience. And so what happens with him
• 1:10:25
  is he starts trying to find that feeling again.
• 1:10:32
  And he ends up going to like, his daughter has
• 1:10:35
  this play or this production or something that
• 1:10:38
  happens to be at a church. And when he goes to
• 1:10:41
  that church, he walks in and all of a sudden
• 1:10:42
  he feels that feeling. of what he experienced
• 1:10:46
  in his near -death experience. And he looks around
• 1:10:49
  and he realizes that what's going on in there
• 1:10:53
  is an earthly version of what he experienced
• 1:10:57
  in the heavenly experience. And so then he comes
• 1:11:01
  to know Christ. That's cool. That's cool. Yeah,
• 1:11:06
  that's one of those things where it's like this
• 1:11:07
  is a near -death experience of somebody who didn't
• 1:11:10
  have that worldview, who had an experience of
• 1:11:14
  something that's literally written down in a
• 1:11:16
  text that he could have had but never had. He
• 1:11:19
  sees it and then finds it on the earth and finds
• 1:11:24
  Jesus through it. That's cool. Crazy. Yeah, and
• 1:11:27
  so I do want to say for the people that have
• 1:11:31
  Opposing views to Christianity that may be listening
• 1:11:33
  to this. Yeah, hopefully you're listening to
• 1:11:34
  this still And so it's like I like those stories
• 1:11:38
  are amazing, but it's like, okay Let's not make
• 1:11:40
  sure let's make sure we're not cherry -picking
• 1:11:41
  sure and I want to be very clear that I'm in
• 1:11:44
  my best possible approach I'm not cherry -picking
• 1:11:46
  anything. Yeah And it doesn't diminish that story
• 1:11:50
  at all cuz it's a beautiful story Yeah, and so
• 1:11:53
  it's like, okay. How common is that? I think
• 1:11:54
  that's one of the questions sure and so I think
• 1:11:57
  it's interesting where we see 20 % of people
• 1:12:01
  that have an NDE see Jesus specifically. I think
• 1:12:05
  that's a very important thing to recognize. It
• 1:12:07
  is. Because it's like no one is reporting that
• 1:12:10
  they're seeing Krishna or no one's reporting
• 1:12:13
  they're seeing Muhammad. Yeah. So here's Jesus.
• 1:12:17
  In NDE's. Yes, in NDE's. Sometimes they do on
• 1:12:21
  hallucinogens. Yes, which are separate. That's
• 1:12:24
  more out of body. Right. So this is a separate,
• 1:12:27
  that's where I was like, let's make sure we have
• 1:12:28
  these distinctions and it'll become more appropriate
• 1:12:32
  later. Right. Toward the end of this. But it's
• 1:12:35
  like, okay, so I think that's important though,
• 1:12:38
  because if we take the worldly perspective that
• 1:12:41
  Jesus is just a prophet. Okay. How come no one
• 1:12:45
  reports seeing these other prophets from these
• 1:12:47
  other religions? Right. but they see Jesus specifically.
• 1:12:50
  And I say specifically because there are key
• 1:12:54
  identifiers, like people will report seeing nail
• 1:12:56
  -scarred hands, or they'll say, I'm Jesus. It's
• 1:13:00
  like, oh, okay. And now to be fair, a lot of
• 1:13:06
  times these are found from, these reports are
• 1:13:08
  from Christians more commonly, but not just from
• 1:13:12
  Christians that see specific Jesus. And these
• 1:13:17
  stories and reports that I've been looking at
• 1:13:19
  and these researchers are doing are from all
• 1:13:22
  parts of the world, all backgrounds and all religions.
• 1:13:25
  And still one out of five people. That's significant.
• 1:13:31
  So I think as Christians first, I think what
• 1:13:36
  we need to do when we approach this conversation
• 1:13:39
  is what we've attempted to do in this podcast
• 1:13:42
  is let's set the framework. So as we approach
• 1:13:45
  this conversation, continue to approach this
• 1:13:49
  conversation. It's like, let's look at, okay,
• 1:13:51
  what's the framework of who God is and how God
• 1:13:54
  operates? You know, the question of how again.
• 1:13:58
  Because, and this is why I say that first, because
• 1:14:02
  a lot of times, this is very common that we see
• 1:14:05
  from NDE experiencers, which is kind of saying
• 1:14:08
  the same thing twice, is they'll say, Oh, religion
• 1:14:14
  doesn't matter. Or, you know, that's not like,
• 1:14:18
  forget religion. Right. Or we're all one. Oh,
• 1:14:21
  I see. Or they'll say things like this. Yeah.
• 1:14:24
  Or everyone is going to heaven. Sometimes we'll
• 1:14:25
  even see that. Now, some of those statements
• 1:14:28
  aren't consistent with the data, which we'll
• 1:14:31
  go into later. Those are kind of sometimes more
• 1:14:34
  anomalous. Yeah. But the sad part is a lot of
• 1:14:37
  people don't say, what do you mean by that? Because
• 1:14:40
  we're just getting these reports and no one's
• 1:14:42
  like, define what you mean. Sure. Yeah. Except
• 1:14:45
  there is a study that was done, I think it was
• 1:14:46
  in the seventies. Okay. By a professor at Emory.
• 1:14:50
  Okay. So pretty, pretty well known guy. Sounds
• 1:14:53
  right. A pretty reliable person. Sounds like
• 1:14:56
  a study they do in the seventies. Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:14:59
  They did some weird stuff in the seventies. Well,
• 1:15:01
  they had to figure out what happened in the sixties.
• 1:15:04
  That's true. I love that. The 60s was experimentation
• 1:15:10
  and the 70s was research. So there were several
• 1:15:16
  people that did a similar study. Yeah. But they
• 1:15:19
  asked the question, what is the outcome? Okay.
• 1:15:23
  And I think that's important for, okay, these
• 1:15:26
  people that are going through this and having
• 1:15:28
  these experiences and saying these things, what's
• 1:15:31
  the long -term outcome of what they've experienced?
• 1:15:33
  Right. regardless if they had a distressing experience
• 1:15:41
  or a positive experience, most of them will turn
• 1:15:46
  to Christianity into more traditional belief
• 1:15:49
  in God. As a result. As a result. Yeah, long
• 1:15:53
  -term down the road, which I think is very interesting.
• 1:15:55
  Yeah. It's very telling to what's happening here.
• 1:15:59
  And so... So you're saying over half? Yeah. Yeah,
• 1:16:05
  majority. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Which yeah,
• 1:16:08
  that's a very interesting thing, right? So yeah,
• 1:16:10
  because that's like, even in the story that I
• 1:16:12
  mentioned, it was more of like, he was searching
• 1:16:14
  for a feeling because he couldn't really, he
• 1:16:17
  couldn't really describe everything. Yeah. And
• 1:16:19
  so that is one of those things. It's like, if
• 1:16:21
  over half of these people are eventually turning
• 1:16:24
  to Christianity, they're doing a similar thing,
• 1:16:28
  which is I had this very specific experience.
• 1:16:31
  of what happens after all this, or what is going
• 1:16:35
  on after all this, or what's going on right now
• 1:16:38
  during this. And as they do that, the conclusion
• 1:16:42
  that they come to in a majority is that Christianity
• 1:16:47
  has the feeling of what is going on. You know
• 1:16:54
  what I mean? Which I feel like is an important
• 1:16:56
  distinction. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's
• 1:17:00
  where there's one story in particular that I
• 1:17:04
  want to bring up. And that actually will lead
• 1:17:08
  into where I'm coming to here. It was a story
• 1:17:13
  I read from Ender. It was one of the credible
• 1:17:16
  ones they have listed there. And so this guy,
• 1:17:20
  he was an atheist. I believe his NDU was back
• 1:17:23
  in like the 70s or the 80s. I want to say it
• 1:17:25
  was the 80s. Gotcha. And so this guy's an atheist.
• 1:17:30
  He would report like, oh, I have these like coughing
• 1:17:33
  fits at night. And he's like, and oftentimes,
• 1:17:35
  like when I start doing that, it would wake me
• 1:17:37
  up and I'd just sit up and then like within a
• 1:17:39
  few minutes it would go away and I'd go back
• 1:17:40
  to sleep. He said this one night, it started
• 1:17:42
  happening and it just kept happening. And he's
• 1:17:45
  like, I didn't want to wake up my wife because
• 1:17:47
  she has trouble sleeping anyway, so I'm like,
• 1:17:49
  I don't want to mess her sleep schedule up for
• 1:17:50
  this. And then he's like, and then out of nowhere,
• 1:17:53
  he started to panic. He's like, oh, this one's
• 1:17:55
  like, this is a real one. Well, when that happened,
• 1:18:00
  he was about to wake his wife up and he heard
• 1:18:01
  a voice, a female voice, he said, that was like,
• 1:18:04
  oh, don't do that. Like, let go. Whoa. And so
• 1:18:09
  instantly he was like, I was looking at my own
• 1:18:11
  body. Yeah. And I saw these two beings in the
• 1:18:14
  room that were like this blue, glowing blue figures.
• 1:18:19
  OK. He said not really human form. Yeah. But
• 1:18:22
  then there was also this weird like blue shape
• 1:18:24
  that he said would look like a portal. Gotcha.
• 1:18:28
  And then he was like, um, the creature was like,
• 1:18:31
  okay, are you ready? He's like, uh, yeah. He's
• 1:18:34
  like, I don't know where we're going, but you
• 1:18:37
  ready? So he said he was then taken to a place
• 1:18:42
  that he's like, uh, there was no sun. Okay. But
• 1:18:45
  everything was lit. Wow. Um, and we'll get into
• 1:18:48
  that here in a minute too. Um, and so he's like,
• 1:18:52
  and then, um, I was looking around, I was like,
• 1:18:55
  He's like, I asked the creature, the guide that
• 1:18:57
  was with me, I asked him like, am I in heaven?
• 1:19:01
  And he said, yeah, this is part of what you would
• 1:19:03
  call heaven. Wow. And he's like, oh, he's like,
• 1:19:07
  well, does that mean God's real? That's crazy.
• 1:19:12
  And the creature is like, yeah, yeah, God's real,
• 1:19:17
  basically. But then the interesting statement
• 1:19:20
  was like, but it's not really the religion that
• 1:19:22
  you teach. It's a different kind of thing. He
• 1:19:26
  didn't exactly say it. I'm trying to remember
• 1:19:28
  exactly the words. But essentially he's like,
• 1:19:30
  wait, so if God's real and heaven's real, does
• 1:19:34
  that mean Jesus is real? And he said instantly
• 1:19:37
  he was taken to this wooden cabin. He was inside
• 1:19:39
  this cabin. And he's like, so I was there. He's
• 1:19:42
  like, and I looked at the wood and he's like,
• 1:19:44
  I'm a carpenter. the wood looked cool. He's like,
• 1:19:47
  so in his head, he was like, huh, I wanna get
• 1:19:50
  closer to that wood. And he's like, instantly
• 1:19:51
  I was like right up on the wood looking at it.
• 1:19:53
  And he said it was weird because it started to
• 1:19:56
  separate the fibers and they were like strings
• 1:19:58
  of light. He's like, but then I heard someone
• 1:20:02
  come into the cabin and I turned to look and
• 1:20:06
  it was this human, like this man type figure
• 1:20:09
  that walked in. He's like, who are you? And he
• 1:20:14
  said, oh, I'm Jesus. I heard you were asking
• 1:20:16
  about me. That's crazy. I wish he would have
• 1:20:21
  said, I'm the carpenter you seek. Yeah. But it's
• 1:20:27
  like, that's one of those interesting things
• 1:20:28
  with, so here's an atheist. Yeah. Who's having
• 1:20:31
  this whole experience and he's describing things
• 1:20:33
  that we see in the Bible. Yeah. And he's like,
• 1:20:37
  is Jesus real? And Jesus is like, heard you were
• 1:20:38
  asking about me? And then boom, I'm at his cabin.
• 1:20:42
  Boom. here's the thing that can be kind of frustrating,
• 1:20:45
  I think, for maybe the more reformed Christians
• 1:20:48
  out of us. And it's like, well, why don't these
• 1:20:52
  people get a straight answer? Why doesn't God
• 1:20:53
  just tell them? Here's your systematic theology.
• 1:20:58
  And that's why a lot of times when people experience
• 1:21:01
  this, a lot of the religions, especially Eastern
• 1:21:04
  religions, where you would expect to see a more
• 1:21:08
  distant God, which is what they teach, something
• 1:21:11
  that's a little bit more distant. In this process
• 1:21:13
  of reincarnation. It's like we actually don't
• 1:21:15
  see that through these stories. It's not it's
• 1:21:18
  an anomalous experience Yeah, and it's an unreliable
• 1:21:21
  experience where a lot of times these people
• 1:21:23
  are trying to like sell a book or sell a course
• 1:21:25
  sure But through the core of these of these stories
• 1:21:30
  like they experience a very personal God who
• 1:21:34
  cares about them and they feel that care Yeah,
• 1:21:37
  that's one of the like most common things that
• 1:21:38
  they'll say when they when they feel whether
• 1:21:40
  they see a being or not Right, they say that
• 1:21:43
  they feel this overwhelming love and care for
• 1:21:45
  them. Yeah, like something is actually caring
• 1:21:47
  about them That makes sense and some of them
• 1:21:49
  even gone as far as saying like like they were
• 1:21:51
  the only one Yeah, it's like that's very consistent
• 1:21:55
  with who God is sure Yeah, yeah, and so um What's
• 1:22:01
  interesting though because I brought up and this
• 1:22:03
  is why I think this story I believe the guy's
• 1:22:04
  name is lewis. Um And hopefully it doesn't mind
• 1:22:08
  me saying that, but I don't know him either.
• 1:22:09
  I just read a story. The other thing that is
• 1:22:13
  talked about is there's like this guide creature
• 1:22:15
  with him, and there's also another creature who's
• 1:22:18
  like writing stuff down. And these are, again,
• 1:22:22
  like I'll go into these verses here, but it's
• 1:22:24
  like, these are the things that we see in scripture
• 1:22:26
  where, I didn't say this at the front, so I'll
• 1:22:30
  say it now. When we look at out of body experiences,
• 1:22:35
  people do often say they experience something
• 1:22:37
  that's very comforting. But it's not something
• 1:22:41
  that we should seek in our own strength. And
• 1:22:45
  the reason for that is because we aren't supposed
• 1:22:47
  to be disembodied. And that's not a teaching
• 1:22:50
  of scripture. And that's where it's like we simplify
• 1:22:53
  things for theology, even though it's not really
• 1:22:56
  good theology. And one of them is saying that
• 1:22:59
  we're gonna go to heaven as a disembodied spirit.
• 1:23:01
  It's like, well, that's not true. Where are we
• 1:23:03
  gonna, we're gonna get a new body. that we're
• 1:23:05
  gonna go to a new earth. Like, that's where we're
• 1:23:08
  supposed to be. Yeah, and Jesus clearly, again,
• 1:23:12
  back to the Hebrew understanding, He shows us
• 1:23:14
  how. He shows us how we're gonna do that, which
• 1:23:18
  is wild. Absolutely. And so what's cool about
• 1:23:23
  that is when we see these NDE's, the people that...
• 1:23:28
  But real quick, by the way, it's not a problem
• 1:23:30
  to me that... the angelic beings in this story,
• 1:23:36
  Louis' story, whoever Louis is. CS. It's not
• 1:23:41
  a problem to me that the beings say, yeah, not
• 1:23:44
  exactly like the religions that you have, or
• 1:23:47
  when he talks to Jesus as well. Oh, I remember
• 1:23:51
  what he said. He was saying that religion is
• 1:23:52
  man -made. That's the word, that's the words
• 1:23:54
  he used. And that's a very important distinction.
• 1:23:56
  It is. And it's also not a problem to me because
• 1:23:58
  it's not at all like how you shouldn't be how
• 1:24:00
  you said it was like, it's like, you know, that's
• 1:24:02
  the reform camp or, or whoever, whatever camp
• 1:24:05
  it's like, we need systematics for that and different
• 1:24:07
  things like that. It's like, not really, because
• 1:24:10
  technically the systematics is how we organize
• 1:24:13
  the unseen realm, which is what we've talked
• 1:24:16
  about. It's like, we're just trying to make sure
• 1:24:19
  we have everything in order. So like, there's
• 1:24:21
  no problem with doing that. That's the whole
• 1:24:24
  point of theology is like, we're just trying
• 1:24:26
  to figure out, like, we need to make sure our
• 1:24:29
  calendar's in place. Like, we need to make sure
• 1:24:31
  we know when we're supposed to be where for what
• 1:24:33
  event. It's like, you know what I mean? And so
• 1:24:35
  like, to me, that's actually what Systematics
• 1:24:37
  is. Is let me organize my life around the gospel.
• 1:24:43
  But in the new heavens and the new earth, in
• 1:24:46
  the reality, in new... in the new heavens and
• 1:24:50
  the new earth. And even in how we see Eden laid
• 1:24:55
  out in Genesis, there isn't systematics. It's
• 1:25:00
  an ever -present reality. So theology is existence.
• 1:25:07
  It's not study of God, it's communion with God.
• 1:25:11
  So communion with God needs no theology. And
• 1:25:14
  that's why there's also the fallacy of like,
• 1:25:19
  It's not religion, it's a relationship. It's
• 1:25:22
  like, okay, both things are true. That could
• 1:25:26
  just be an excuse for you not to organize your
• 1:25:29
  life. And an excuse for you to maybe not be legalistic,
• 1:25:35
  which you may have a tendency towards. And so
• 1:25:38
  you throw it out altogether. And then you have
• 1:25:40
  this... then you start to have this theology
• 1:25:43
  and this faith that is actually closer to new
• 1:25:47
  age because you're trying to get, you're trying
• 1:25:49
  to actively have out of body experiences, which
• 1:25:52
  you're not supposed to do. It's in contrast to
• 1:25:54
  what we were created to be. Yeah, exactly. That's
• 1:25:56
  why extremes and hyper versions of different
• 1:26:02
  theologies and practices and in prayer and in
• 1:26:06
  worship and different things like that, any time
• 1:26:08
  you're trying to exit your body, to be present
• 1:26:13
  with the Lord the way that many people through
• 1:26:17
  the Bible were, if you're doing it on your own,
• 1:26:22
  what you're doing is inherently demonic. Yes,
• 1:26:25
  absolutely. And yeah, and so I think that's why
• 1:26:29
  it's important for these, when we look at these
• 1:26:31
  stories, especially the people that report a
• 1:26:33
  guide or like a loved one who's there, it's like
• 1:26:36
  they're there to protect you. Right. When the
• 1:26:39
  angels are there, when you're in the presence
• 1:26:41
  of this light being, who oftentimes identifies
• 1:26:44
  himself as I am he who is, or I am that I am.
• 1:26:49
  It's like, well, that's, that's Yahweh. It's
• 1:26:51
  like, well, why is that important that they see
• 1:26:54
  they have these experiences? Because you're in
• 1:26:56
  a space you're not supposed to be in. And so
• 1:26:59
  you need to be protected in that space. But the
• 1:27:01
  people that oftentimes have a more distressing
• 1:27:04
  experience, there's no one there to protect them.
• 1:27:07
  And that makes sense. They're left in a space
• 1:27:09
  where they're on their own. So it's less of what
• 1:27:14
  they see and more of the comfort of a guide.
• 1:27:19
  Yes. Which is super interesting. It's very interesting.
• 1:27:23
  Because that makes sense here on earth as well.
• 1:27:26
  It's like if you have the Holy Spirit guiding
• 1:27:29
  you through the world, then the result is peace.
• 1:27:35
  Yeah. But if you don't have the Holy Spirit guiding
• 1:27:38
  you through the world, then the result is chaos
• 1:27:41
  and anguish. And so the same is true on the other
• 1:27:44
  side of the veil. Yeah. Yeah. Which... Well,
• 1:27:48
  I think it's interesting, and this is actually
• 1:27:49
  this is how I'm gonna attempt to explain this
• 1:27:53
  part, because I think the other interesting part
• 1:27:54
  about that was what you... brought up and are
• 1:27:57
  emphasizing is this idea of religion and relationship.
• 1:28:01
  Because I actually do, I cringe every time I
• 1:28:02
  hear it. It's relationship, not religion. It's
• 1:28:04
  like, okay, hold on, let's pause. So that's the
• 1:28:09
  follow -up to a lot of these people that say,
• 1:28:11
  oh, religion doesn't matter. What do you mean
• 1:28:13
  by that? And because we see, as we've said from
• 1:28:17
  those studies, what's the outcome? The outcome
• 1:28:19
  is they end up in a religion. And it's oftentimes
• 1:28:22
  Christianity. So it's like, okay, well, what
• 1:28:25
  happened there? Well, what they're saying is,
• 1:28:27
  yeah, religion isn't what saves you. It's a relationship
• 1:28:32
  with the Lord. That's the important thing. And
• 1:28:35
  so religion is a tool that we use to help us
• 1:28:37
  in that. It helps us also get to know more. It's
• 1:28:41
  kind of like, I have conversations with you,
• 1:28:45
  we have a relationship, and I get to know you
• 1:28:47
  through that relationship. And people watching
• 1:28:50
  this podcast know about us because they hear
• 1:28:53
  from us. getting our material, but they don't
• 1:28:57
  know us. Sure. You know what I mean? So it's
• 1:28:59
  like religion helps us get to know about God,
• 1:29:03
  but it doesn't help us know God. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:29:06
  that's true. I like that. Yeah, thanks. So I
• 1:29:10
  think we should... I want to anchor this in some
• 1:29:12
  verses. Well, I was going to say I think we should
• 1:29:14
  wrap up this introduction to this idea. Yeah,
• 1:29:17
  which I knew it would be. Yeah, yeah. And then
• 1:29:19
  because I feel like all the way through this
• 1:29:21
  episode, we've just been saying... So this is
• 1:29:24
  to what we're gonna say later, to what we're
• 1:29:25
  gonna say later, which will have to just be next
• 1:29:27
  episode. It probably will. Yeah, because there
• 1:29:31
  are like two key stories, I feel like, that I
• 1:29:37
  wanna go through. Yeah, and I definitely have
• 1:29:40
  a lot more that I'd love to spend time on. But
• 1:29:43
  I do wanna say this, kinda put like a little
• 1:29:45
  bit of a bow on this, and this is the through
• 1:29:47
  line that... of the message that I want to come
• 1:29:49
  across in this is, so what does this teach us
• 1:29:52
  about God? That's the question. Because it's
• 1:29:56
  like, okay, so I'm arguing, and I think both
• 1:29:58
  of us are arguing, it's like, these are real
• 1:30:00
  experiences that fit in the framework of Christianity.
• 1:30:03
  They teach a biblical truth. So what is that
• 1:30:08
  truth? Well, I think it's important and it's
• 1:30:11
  interesting that these people experience love
• 1:30:16
  and comfort. but these people aren't dying. I
• 1:30:19
  mean, they are dying, but they're not dead. They
• 1:30:22
  end up surviving. They're experiencing death
• 1:30:24
  without dying. Yeah, and I think that is a key
• 1:30:27
  factor of who God is, in that he knows they're
• 1:30:32
  not going to die. I see what you're saying, yeah.
• 1:30:34
  And so, well, what is he leaving these people
• 1:30:36
  with? And actually, we didn't even get into the
• 1:30:38
  life review side, which we will get into that
• 1:30:41
  probably in another episode. I want to bring
• 1:30:46
  up 2 Peter 3, 9, because I always got to anchor
• 1:30:48
  it in the Bible. We always have to do that. Yes,
• 1:30:50
  yes we do. It says that the Lord is not slow
• 1:30:53
  to fulfill His promise, as some count as slowness,
• 1:30:56
  but is patient toward you, not wishing that any
• 1:30:59
  should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
• 1:31:03
  So what do we see in these positive stories?
• 1:31:06
  It's like, well, we see that God acts in kindness
• 1:31:08
  toward us. Yeah. You know, He... Actually, yeah,
• 1:31:15
  there's plenty more to kind of go into some of
• 1:31:17
  these details of what people are seeing, but
• 1:31:19
  I'll save that for another time. Because there's
• 1:31:21
  plenty of scripture to back up what these people
• 1:31:23
  are saying and seeing that are very biblical,
• 1:31:26
  and they're describing these biblical scenes.
• 1:31:28
  But the most important thing in this, and as
• 1:31:30
  we continue this conversation, is God is saying,
• 1:31:34
  I want you to seek me, and so let me show you
• 1:31:38
  who I am. And I'm a personal God who loves you
• 1:31:43
  and cares about you. And I'm not gonna just give
• 1:31:45
  you this systematic theology and say, yeah, I'm
• 1:31:47
  real and worship me. Cool, done. Because if he
• 1:31:51
  wanted that, we wouldn't have free will. Right,
• 1:31:53
  yeah, exactly. It's like, well, what does he
• 1:31:55
  want? He's one of the same thing from the beginning.
• 1:31:57
  He wants a family, he wants a relationship with
• 1:31:59
  us. And so, you don't get that by forcing people
• 1:32:03
  to just do these things for you. But instead,
• 1:32:05
  he shows... how He loves us, He shows how He's
• 1:32:09
  faithful and how He's merciful, but also how
• 1:32:11
  He's just. And so when people leave and they
• 1:32:17
  say, oh, religion's not important, well, they're
• 1:32:20
  right. Because what did they learn? Well, they
• 1:32:23
  learned that I need to seek this relationship
• 1:32:25
  with this God. Right. Yeah. And then religion
• 1:32:29
  on the earth is a framework in order to help
• 1:32:32
  you continue to do that. Absolutely and in some
• 1:32:34
  ways like in some ways community like the the
• 1:32:38
  idea of the gathering of the Saints Which Ephesians
• 1:32:42
  Paul talks about to the Church of Ephesus? That
• 1:32:45
  idea is like well, then I don't need to go to
• 1:32:47
  church. That's actually not true like unfortunately
• 1:32:50
  not all church is Set up for the gathering of
• 1:32:55
  the Saints a lot of some churches set up to put
• 1:32:58
  on a show But the reality is if a church is set
• 1:33:02
  up, which I just saw this the other day, I saw
• 1:33:04
  a church that's in South Florida that over the
• 1:33:08
  door as you walk into their sanctuary, it says
• 1:33:12
  for the equipping of the saints for the work
• 1:33:14
  of the ministry. And it's like, man, that's awesome.
• 1:33:17
  I love that. Because that's literally what the
• 1:33:19
  church gathering is. The church gathering is
• 1:33:22
  to go like, all right, listen, when you get married
• 1:33:25
  or when you're in a relationship, or when you
• 1:33:28
  start something new, or whatever it is, at the
• 1:33:33
  beginning, there's all these things to be interested
• 1:33:35
  in. But then there comes a threshold where those
• 1:33:40
  things aren't sustaining you anymore, and you
• 1:33:43
  need... other people to help you give deeper
• 1:33:46
  meaning and value to what is going on in the
• 1:33:49
  decisions that you've made. Yeah. So like if
• 1:33:51
  you choose a relationship with a spouse, then
• 1:33:55
  you need people around you to encourage you to
• 1:33:58
  keep going when there are there are things in
• 1:34:01
  that relationship that when you get to a certain
• 1:34:04
  point, you're like the harder things are outweighing
• 1:34:08
  the good things right now. And it's like, so
• 1:34:10
  do I bail? No, you don't. You persevere. And
• 1:34:13
  that's why Paul uses that language of perseverance
• 1:34:17
  and the gathering of the saints and to gather
• 1:34:21
  all the more as the day approaches so that we
• 1:34:25
  can stir each other up in our faith, remind each
• 1:34:28
  other of the faithfulness of God. That is in
• 1:34:32
  the... the overarching framework of religion
• 1:34:36
  is things like liturgical practices or going
• 1:34:40
  to church is basically what I'm saying. So like
• 1:34:43
  going to church is important, not because church
• 1:34:46
  is what saves you, but church is what encourages
• 1:34:51
  you in your salvation. Yeah. So let me even think
• 1:34:54
  about it in a more like in a practical sense
• 1:34:56
  of relationships with each other exactly is well
• 1:35:01
  okay so if I'm if I'm talking to to to someone
• 1:35:05
  and we have an argument right I'm like I'm wrestling
• 1:35:10
  with this idea about this person yeah because
• 1:35:12
  of this thing that I'm seeing sure well Should
• 1:35:15
  I be like, all right, I'm out, this relationship's
• 1:35:17
  over? I could do that. Or I could be like, let
• 1:35:19
  me go to someone who knows them a little bit
• 1:35:20
  better, or just know them longer, and be like,
• 1:35:22
  hey, this is what I'm seeing, can you help me
• 1:35:24
  understand this? And be like, oh yeah, actually,
• 1:35:27
  I can explain that for you. And he's like, oh,
• 1:35:29
  okay, that's what I needed. That's the communion
• 1:35:32
  of the saints, that's the church. Is, hey, you
• 1:35:35
  know him a little bit longer than I do. You have
• 1:35:37
  a relationship with him a lot longer, so help
• 1:35:40
  me with these questions. And maybe I've seen
• 1:35:42
  a side of them that you haven't seen. Right.
• 1:35:44
  So let me explain that to you. Yeah. And let's
• 1:35:46
  build each other up in this relationship that
• 1:35:48
  we're having. Yeah. And in that, it's like, yeah,
• 1:35:50
  we create these frameworks that help us, one,
• 1:35:53
  to remember, because our memory sucks. Right.
• 1:35:55
  Yeah, for sure. We're terrible at remembering
• 1:35:57
  things. For sure. And that's why God often always
• 1:36:01
  says, do this and remember to me, because you're
• 1:36:02
  going to forget. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's the
• 1:36:05
  beauty of religion. It helps us remember, and
• 1:36:07
  it helps us keep track of things. But the relationship,
• 1:36:11
  is the actual most important core piece. And
• 1:36:17
  religion is a tool that helps us in that. Yeah,
• 1:36:20
  yeah, I mean, it's, yeah. It's the whole thing
• 1:36:23
  that the framework is built around. Yes, yeah.
• 1:36:26
  So, and if you take the heart out of it, then
• 1:36:28
  the framework is, there's no purpose for it.
• 1:36:31
  Right, right. Yeah, it's almost like if you build
• 1:36:34
  a building that's supposed to house a business,
• 1:36:37
  but then the business goes away. and the building
• 1:36:40
  is still there, what's the purpose of the building?
• 1:36:43
  Then that's the whole thing with like, if you
• 1:36:45
  build a religion around a purpose, but then the
• 1:36:49
  purpose goes away, then all you have is an empty
• 1:36:52
  building of a religion that's pointless. So like
• 1:36:57
  that is kind of the tough thing. But maybe we
• 1:37:00
  should, we need to do a follow -up episode of
• 1:37:06
  this one. And what I'd like to do, is I'd like
• 1:37:09
  to go through and hit major biblical stories
• 1:37:13
  that are potential NDE experiences. I'd love
• 1:37:17
  that. So this is a setup to the next episode,
• 1:37:22
  which is basically like, let's look at all the
• 1:37:24
  potential near -death experiences in the Bible
• 1:37:28
  and if they were or weren't and what those resulted
• 1:37:34
  in in the process. Yeah, I love that. And maybe
• 1:37:36
  a way that we don't we potentially haven't thought
• 1:37:40
  about these stories in the past. Yeah, I think
• 1:37:44
  that's great. So the question is, do NDEs prove
• 1:37:53
  universalism? And the short of it is what they
• 1:38:02
  often prove and what they often show is that
• 1:38:05
  there is a personal God who does care about you.
• 1:38:08
  And he wants you to seek him. And he wants you
• 1:38:10
  to wrestle with these questions, just as we see
• 1:38:12
  with Job. And so that's what we need to do. Yeah.
• 1:38:18
  And the majority of them point specifically to
• 1:38:24
  the God of Christianity. Yeah. And so it's important
• 1:38:28
  for us then is, if that's true, what does he
• 1:38:30
  say? Right. Three, two, one. Just go like this.
• 1:38:50
  No! Stop editing! Stop! Stop editing.