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MTM - Interview with Dr. Cloer - What is Political Idolatry? · More Than Medicine

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome to More Than Medicine, where Jesus is more than enough for the ills that plague our culture and our country.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Hosted by author and physician, dr Robert Jackson, and his wife Carlotta and daughter Hannah Miller.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: So listen up, because the doctor is in.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Welcome to More Than Medicine.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Dr Robert Jackson, bringing to you biblical insights and stories from the country doctor's rusty, dusty scrapbook.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: I'm privileged today to have once again one of my favorite guests, Dr Michael Clore.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Dr Clore, welcome to More Than Medicine.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Thank you for allowing me to be here.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Welcome to More Than Medicine.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Thank you for allowing me to be here.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm delighted to have you as my guest.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: So first of all, let's begin, Michael Dr Clore, by telling my guest a little bit about who you are and where you're from, and what you do.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: I'm just a pastor.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: I've been a pastor 50 years, pastoring five different churches in 50 years, and then in the past three and a half years I have been a pastor of pastors.
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: I'm called a mission strategist in a local association here on the East Coast of North Carolina.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: So I'm still a pastor and I love it.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Well, good, good, good, all right.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Now let me say this In the last two weeks I have been in my medical practice, I've had patients coming in and I mean they're almost literally doing the Trump dance in my office because the majority of them have been so delighted and happy about the results of the election.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: And, of course, most of them pretty much know where I stand on the issues, and so they have been rejoicing in the results of the election.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: And you know, before the election they were all a little hesitant, a little tentative and fearful.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: And I have to tell you about one patient.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: She came in and told me that before the election she had bought five firearms, pistols and a couple of rifles.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: And she told me that she was so afraid of how the election might turn out that she had gone out and bought five brand new firearms.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: And this is a 70 plus year old woman.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: Well, now she told me that she was so delighted in the results of the election that she didn't think she needed the firearms and won't know if I needed to buy any.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: So her outlook had just totally flipped because of the results of the election.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: So you know, the demeanor and the atmosphere, not just in my patient population but literally around the nation, has changed dramatically.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: But here's the question that I want to ask you, dr Clore can Christian America find spiritual relief in a Trump presidency?
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: It's according to what we describe as spiritual relief.
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: I do think we can find some spiritual relief in social matters.
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: I do think we can find spiritual relief in issues that are very relevant and precious to those who are Christ followers.
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: We can find positive spiritual traction on these issues that are important.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: Just for example, the pro-life issue.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: It seems like for the first time in my lifetime, the pro-death people chose death to be the center subject for their campaign.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: Here in North Carolina.
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: It was the subject of our gubernatorial and lieutenant governor, chief of the justices on our court system, even our local elections.
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: The number one issue that they always said in every commercial was whether or not they were for abortion.
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: Now, of course, they never said they were for abortion.
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: They were for they just changed the name of it, what they call it reproductive health, woman's health, women's health.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: They are the ones, let me tell you, the pro-death people are the ones that made it the central issue.
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: I think that's very encouraging to those of us who are saved, to those of us who do follow Christ, that we can find spiritual relief in this Trump presidency, in the matters of pro-life issues, in the matter of school choice, in the matter of securing borders and the very important matter of stopping this council culture, this woke mentality that seems to be invading every area of our life.
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: So those issues, I think we can find some kind of a spiritual relief in them.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Now, I don't define Donald Trump as a righteous man, but so many of the policies that he advocates fall in the category of righteousness and the Bible says that when the righteous rule, the people rejoice.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: And you see people rejoicing all over this country because of the righteous, good and right policies that he advocates, and I feel like that Christian America can find some kind of spiritual relief in a Trump presidency.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Although I don't see him necessarily as a Christian man, he advocates biblical principles, would you?
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: agree with that.
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: I agree with that, yeah.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: I do too.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: All right, let me ask you another question then.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Does trusting in a political figure equate to idolatry?
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: If we put our confidence in them, if we put our hope in them, I think it would.
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: Let's settle the issue about does the presidency of Donald Trump enable or help the Christian cause of America?
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: I say it could.
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: One of the ways it can, of course, is as many cabinet picks.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: Israel was a former Baptist pastor before he became governor of Arkansas.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: Who ever heard of a Baptist pastor being in a president's cabinet?
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: Of course, matt Goetz, who's been the number one issue.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: It tickles me, because they didn't have any issue with homosexuals and lesbians being in cabinet or cross-dressers.
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: But man, these Doug Collins, who would have thought that Colonel Doug Collins, who became general, would be the secretary of the Veterans Affairs?
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: That's right, he was a pastor before he became a chaplain.
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: He got his MDiv degree from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: Secretary of the Veterans Affairs.
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: That's right, he was a pastor, that's right Before he became a chaplain.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he got his MDiv degree from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, yeah, yeah.
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: And then, of course, matt Goetz, who he selected as Attorney General.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: They'll really hate him because he's a member of the First Baptist Church, fort Walton Beach, florida.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: Yep that's right.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: That's right, and Pete, Pete.
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: Pete.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Hegseth is.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: He goes to a very conservative church and his I've heard that he's in a homeschool family.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: I don't, I don't know that for definite.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: I've just heard it.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: I've tried to document it.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: But you know his.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: You know they go hate him.
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: Oh yes, Just like they do JD Vance and Marco Rubio and any of those who claim the name of Christ.
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: Yes, you know that.
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: Now is it the same for me to say I really love my president?
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: Is that idolatry?
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: No, I think I should love my president, even if I didn't vote for them.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know I've been praying for Donald Trump and his family for years.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, and you know I don't know about his spiritual life.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: But you know, like I said, he advocates for policies that are very biblical and just and fair and I pray that he will have a spiritual revival in his life and in the life of his family.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: But I don't put my trust in him in the same way that I put my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: If I did that would be idolatry.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: That would be idolatry, that would be.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: You're exactly right, Dr Jackson.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: You know I don't put my trust in any man that you know.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: To put trust in anybody above the lord jesus christ is idolatry.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: So let me ask you this how does, how does scripture define idolatry?
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: pastor, most people dr jackson would think of idolatry.
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: That's, uh, the second commandment.
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: You don't make it to him any graven image, you don't have any idols, uh, and they think of.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: That's where idolatry begins.
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: No, it begins with the first commandment, when he says you shall not have any other god or gods before him.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: Now, what is idolatry, biblically speaking?
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: It's not just having a love for something greater than your love for him.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: That's right, Of course that's easily defined as idolatry.
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: But when he says you can't have anything before him, that word before him means instead of in place of that's right, in other words, anything that we would ascribe to a person, whether it's a pastor or a son or a daughter or a mom or a dad or a president.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: When we ascribe to anything or any person that which belongs to God and God alone, that's idolatry.
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: If I hear someone say and I did hear, in fact I heard someone say in a pulpit Donald Trump is the only hope for America, and I cringed with that I know.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: I've heard people say that I have.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: No, it is not true.
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: I bought a big sticker to put on the back glass of my truck that says Jesus Christ 24.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: He is the only hope for America.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: I want that sticker, please Send it to me.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: And, by the way, it's still good, it's still in effect.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for example, I've heard people say I've lost my son, passed away and he was my life, my husband.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: I miss my husband.
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: He passed away and he was my life, my husband.
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: I miss my husband.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: He passed away and he was really my life.
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: Well then, he was your idol.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: That's right Because Colossians 3, verse 4 says when Christ, who is our life, that's right.
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: He's our life, he's our peace, our hope.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: He's our stability.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: He's my.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: All in all, I don't put my hope in the United States.
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: I sure don't put my hope in social security.
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: No, hey, what are you depending upon in your future?
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: Where's your confidence?
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: Where's your security?
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: Your retirement plan 401k, that's an idol.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Right, all right.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: Next question Does political reform equal spiritual revival?
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: Well, of course not.
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: You can have political reform and not have anything spiritual about it.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: But history I don't know of any historical example when there was a spiritual reform that did not result in a political reform.
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Exactly, it's putting them in that order.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: Well now, do you think that the political reform that we're seeing now is a consequence of some kind of spiritual reform happening in our country?
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: It could be, or it could be judgment.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: What do you mean?
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: I mean, the greatest outpouring of spiritual revival has usually come in the darkest of times.
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: It was true in Israel.
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: It was true in Judah when they became divided nations.
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: It was true in China.
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: It was true in Judah when they became divided nations.
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: It was true in China.
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: It was true in Cuba.
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: You see, far beyond our geographical boundaries is the kingdom of God.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: There is one kingdom that's going to far outlast, outlive all other government entities and political entities, and that's the kingdom of God.
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: And that's what we, when we give our loyalty to.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: I can be a loyal American, I pledge allegiance, I cry when we sing our national anthem, but my eternal loyalty is to the kingdom of Jesus Christ, because it's the kingdom that will never end.
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: And whatever it takes to further the kingdom of God, I'm for it, even if it means losing a political election.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: Sometimes.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: Well, no, I'm trying to think of a great spiritual move that didn't take place opposite of political reform.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: I mean the great awakenings in this country.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: What happened after this great revolutionary war?
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: Another great awakening in this nation happened during the Civil War.
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember that.
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: The most divided time in this country's history.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you find it in China again.
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: Hey, the fastest growing church in the world in 2024, right now, the greatest spiritual revival churches are just multiplying radically.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: Exponentially is in Iran.
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: Wow, how about that?
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: There's no political reform taking place in Iran.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: No, no, it's not.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: That's amazing.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: That is amazing, though it doesn't equate to the same.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: Well, what's the prerequisite for spiritual revival?
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: Preacher, it's if my people, who are called by my name, will exalt themselves.
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: No, no, no no, just the opposite just the opposite will humble themselves and don't seek their face, seek my face.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: Now I can't try to save my face and seek his.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: Humble themselves.
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: Seek his face.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: Repent of our sin and pray.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: Those are the four prerequisites to spiritual awakening.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: None of that is a pride or a haughtiness.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: It's certainly not putting our trust in anything or anyone else but Him.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: So if people say I really believe this election can lead us now to a great spiritual awakening in our country, I ask two questions.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: I ask do you pray as much now as you did before November 5th?
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: for revival.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: And do you pray with as much urgency now as you did on November 4th?
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: And, man, I had to ask myself those questions and I apologized and I repented before the Lord because I found myself thinking this might be it, man, this is it.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: This is the gateway to the great spiritual revival.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: God needed our help.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: No, he did not need our help.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: No, he did not need our help.
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: He's waiting till we humble ourselves and get rid of our pride and seek his face.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: I know that.
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: How can I support the political reform that's taking place right now in America and, at the same time, seek God for revival?
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: I've got to put all my hope in him, that's right.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: Not in politics, that's revival.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: I've got to put all my hope in him.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: Not in politics, that's right.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: I've got to keep my focus on the kingdom of God and not on the kingdoms of this world.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Well, there's so much hesitant hopefulness amongst Christian people right now.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: Hesitant because you really don't know what a political figure like Donald Trump's going to do, and there's a lot of celebration going on.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: So how do we avoid political idolatry in the midst of that hesitant hopefulness?
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: Boy Dr.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: Jackson.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: All of these are very important questions and I think there's two ways we can avoid this political idolatry.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: I think number one instead of putting any of our leaders political or spiritual leaders instead of putting them on a pedestal, put them on a prayer list.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: That's good.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: That's good.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: The easiest place to fall off of is a pedestal.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: They have feet of clay, like all of us.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: They're all sinners, like all of us are.
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: None of us have any hope outside of Jesus Christ, amen.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: So put them on a prayer list.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: That's why he really emphasizes in Scripture to pray for those in spiritual authority and in political authority.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: Pray for those.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: And then one other thing that we do keep our focus on the greatest problem in this world.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: And the greatest problem in this world is not politics, or pandemic, or famine, or health care or disease.
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: The greatest problem on earth is lostness.
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because all other human problems will stop at death.
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: If they don't have the right food or enough food, when a person dies, that won't be a problem anymore.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: If they don't have the right food or enough food, when a person dies, that won't be a problem anymore.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: If they don't have the right education, if they don't have good shelter, clean water, if they don't have sufficient clothing.
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: All of those problems are serious problems.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: I'm not negating them, they're serious problems.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: But I'm saying when a person dies, that problem won't be around any longer.
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: But if a person dies without Jesus Christ, oh, that problem is only beginning.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: It's going to continue forever and ever.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: I think, as children of God, in the midst of rejoicing that we can do some great things now, at the same time, there's never been a greater time to humble ourselves and pray and seek his face and keep focused on the greatest problem on earth.
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: And we've got the solution to that problem.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: It's salvation in Jesus Christ amen, hallelujah, that is so true.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: That is so true, all right.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Well, let me ask you one last question then what part do we play, pastor, in, in bringing real revival in our churches and in our communities?
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: I think this will give us a great opportunity, dr Jackson, to remind our people where our hope really is and what our emphasis should really be about.
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: Let's take advantage of this season, because we may never ever have this season again as far as speaking up for those who cannot speak for themselves and protecting the lives of those who are innocently being taken to the slaughter.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: Let's take advantage of the situation right now and let's use this opportunity to call our people to put their focus on Jesus Christ.
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: Here's a wonderful opportunity for us to humble ourselves.
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: We have to choose to do that.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: He won't do that for us.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: He says humble yourself in the sight of God.
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: So I think this is a wonderful opportunity for us to do that.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: You're so right, brother.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: You're so right and see, I understand, because before the election, I met so many people who were praying and fasting and praying and they were so concerned about the future of our nation.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: And now people are rejoicing and celebrating and they're putting their hope and their trust in a political figure, they're putting all their hopes on a political party and on political policies and they're failing to put their trust in the true king, the king of the universe, the king of all the ages, the king of all the nations, our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the king of all kings, and he alone is worthy to be worshipped.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: He alone is worthy of all praise and adoration.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: And you know, I pondered all of this for the last couple of weeks and that's why I wanted to invite you to have this discussion, because it disturbs me when I see people making an idol out of a political figure or a political party and not worshiping the true King, our Lord Jesus Christ.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Well, Dr Clore, I appreciate your insights.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: I always appreciate the way you your perspective on the issues and I thank you for your time and I hope you'll come back and be with us on More Than Medicine on another occasion.
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Dr Jackson.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: All right, you're listening to More Than Medicine.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Dr Robert Jackson.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: I trust that you'll have a good week.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: We'll be back again next week, same time and same place.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: May the Lord bless you real good.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to this edition of More Than Medicine.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: For more information about the Jackson Family Ministry, dr Jackson's books, or to schedule a speaking engagement, go to their Facebook page, instagram or their webpage at jacksonfamilyministrycom.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: This podcast is produced by Bob Sloan Audio Production at bobsloancom.