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573: #573 Guest Host Tiffany Reese with Patrick Brown · Wrongful Conviction Podcasts

• 00:00:00 Speaker 1: A warning for our listeners. This episode contains discussion of child sexual assault and of suicide. Please listen with caution and care. In February of nineteen ninety four, a six year old girl living in New Orleans complained of pain in her abdomen and pelvic region. When she was examined at the hospital, the doctor suspected she had been sexually assaulted, and the police were alerted. The child was questioned by doctors and by the police without apparent present. According to the doctor, when he asked who had harmed her, the child named Patrick Brown, her mother's live in boyfriend. Patrick insisted that he was innocent. He would never hurt a child, let alone someone in his own family. Without any corroborating evidence, the prosecution relied solely on the notes taken by the doctor, and after just a day an hour half of trial, the doctor's word was enough to convince the jury to convict. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Tiffany Reese, host of the podcast Something Was Wrong, sitting in for Jason Flam. I am a documentarian, survivor, and advocate, and on my audio docuseries podcast, I work with survivors of abuse and crime. Today's case tragically impacted the lives of two people, someone who was wrongfully convicted of a heinous crime and the victim of that crime who tried for decades to tell the truth that the wrong person was in prison and was not heard. Thankfully, there are two in this story, and one of them is with us today, Patrick Brown. Patrick, thank you so much for joining us and being willing to share your story and your experience with us today. I'd like to start by just saying how sorry I am for what you've experienced. It was incredibly heartbreaking coming across your story and the story of the survivor. It was clear to me that you're both victims and survivors of so much systemic and legal abuse within this story, and I think it's really brave that you're willing to share with us after everything that you've already experienced and overcome to be here today. So thank you so so much. 00:02:39 Speaker 2: You welcome, you welcome. 00:02:41 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. To your attorney, Kelly Orion's, who's also joining us today. Kelly, could you introduce yourself and give us a little bit about your background before we jump into Patrick's story. 00:02:51 Speaker 3: Sure, sure, thank you so much for having both of us here today. So I am the director of the Decarceration and Commune the re Entry Clinic at the University of Virginia School of Law. That is a mouthful in Charlottesville, Virginia. 00:03:08 Speaker 1: Patrick, I'd love to go back a bit and talk a bit about you and where you were born and a little bit about your background and who you were leading up to this horrific experience. 00:03:20 Speaker 4: I was born in New Orles, Louisiana, raised in a Laura and I. I come from a good family, were a beautiful family. Family was full of love. So it wasn't broken at all. You know, to where my family the open armser whoever welcome and feed them, help them out. 00:03:37 Speaker 2: Well. 00:03:37 Speaker 4: I wasn't no bad person, but I took a turn in my life as I was growing up. That's to become street hung out all night, hung with the fellas, doing this, doing that, to the point to where when I met my kid mama a soldier. 00:03:55 Speaker 2: You know, everybody got to have a soldier. 00:03:57 Speaker 1: How did you meet Kathy? What was your reallyationship like? 00:04:01 Speaker 2: Oh? 00:04:02 Speaker 4: Man, I met Cathy. You know, I was just coming at the club and she was walking up and she was squirting me. So I was stopped and I say, you know, shaw my conscience because she's a nice looking woman. 00:04:15 Speaker 2: And when I talked to her, we had hooked up and we know, we dated having. 00:04:19 Speaker 4: Fun and you know, moved in with her like two weeks. Then the relationships stuff like that, and from there to where it was a beautiful relationship. She had my daughter, and the whole time she was pregnant, I was just so protective of her. I don't want nobody to smoke around her. I don't want nobody doing that. Always pop up at the house, She'll robot stomach, leave, vacuum, the screams, didn't come back home. It was just like like no tea for me. And she was all the way one hundred with me. But what I was one hundred with her. I understand Somewhat I wasn't. Somewhat I wasn't because I stood in the street all night, hustling, try to provide for my family by the streets, and really I didn't have time for my family at home. 00:05:17 Speaker 1: Do you do you think like you did the best you could in the situation you were in at the time. I mean, you were only twenty years old, right. 00:05:26 Speaker 2: Right, nineteen? 00:05:28 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that it's tough when you want to be able to provide for your family and you feel like you have limited options. I think sometimes on how to do that right? 00:05:38 Speaker 4: Well, you know, I really had no guidance on how to raise a family, how to keep up with the bills and make sure that the family had med a care And I ain't know about all that, you know, ain't nobody really hold my hand and showed me how to become a man to provide for family like the man supposed to do. 00:05:58 Speaker 2: Because when I was. 00:05:59 Speaker 4: Really young, my dad had died. I really ain't had no fault to figure in my life. I just went on my own, try to learn from the streets. 00:06:08 Speaker 1: Did you have any previous run ins with the law? You mentioned, you know the lifestyle, but did you have any like did they know who you were? 00:06:19 Speaker 2: When the system? 00:06:20 Speaker 4: The system, they did know who I was because during the time of arresting, during the time my trial, they really gave me a figure how many times that I had been arrested and the thirty seven times that I've been arrested, was fighting, activated, battery, disturbing the peace, stuff like that. It wasn't have really no major crime. It was like mostly missed themeanor childs. 00:06:46 Speaker 1: Yes, and nothing involving violence against children to be. 00:06:50 Speaker 2: Clear, No, no, nothing involved. 00:06:54 Speaker 1: Thank you, Patrick. We're going to talk about the events that led to your wrongful conviction. Now, I'd like to remind the listeners that we'll be discussing some triggering topics involving a minor child. To protect the privacy of the victim, we are not using her real name. Instead, we'll call her Sarah Kelly. Would you mind walking us through what we know of the case, all. 00:07:15 Speaker 3: Right, So, first, I think it's important to make clear that this is a case where someone was horrifically victimized and survived an awful assault, and then was revictimized for twenty years after while she tried to tell the people around her, including the district Attorney's office, that the wrong person was in prison. I think it's important to acknowledge the two ways that the victim in this case was and the survivor in this case was harmed. So the case starts in February of nineteen ninety four, when Sarah was six years old. It was the day after Marti Gras when she started complaining about discomfort and her abdomen and her pelvic region. So they attempted some home remedies and over the counter treatment, but that didn't work, and so then she was taken in to see doctor Ronald Wilcox. Doctor Wilcox immediately suspected that she had been reaped and asked doctor Maria Menna, a pediatric specialist and child sex abuse to evaluate Sarah. And so they start talking to Sarah about what happened to her. What's really critical to understand about what happens next is what is actually said in the doctor's office versus what then gets put onto paper and given to the police and given then to the district attorney's office. And what the difference is is you have in the doctor's office a lot of what we would call, you know, leading questions because you're dealing with a six year old girl at the time, it was recorded in the doctor's notes that she's said, quote Patrick put his penis in me down there. Sarah maintains that is not what she said, and that at the hospital she was only asked who is Patrick, to which she responded essentially that he was her family member. When NOPD detectives were called in. Sarah was also questioned without a family member present. 00:09:22 Speaker 1: Thank you, Kelly. So now Patrick, could you tell us about what your experience was when you arrived at the hospital that day with Sarah's mother. 00:09:30 Speaker 2: Me and Kaja rive at the hospital to get it. 00:09:33 Speaker 4: And when I got there, I passed the room the examination room, and I seen family members in the room with Sarah to the part to where when the detectives them came out of another room and brought me into it was questioning me about it, and basically it just question me about you know something that happened to the victim. And it was asked me a question by do I know anything about it? And no, I don't know. That's why I'm here at the hospital trying to find out what is the problem. 00:10:09 Speaker 3: At this At this time, mister Brown is completely cooperative with the police and wants to know who hurt this little girl that he loves and takes care of, and so he is not at all thinking like a suspect. He submits to various testing. He waived his rights to an attorney and his right to remain silent, and spoke to detectives without an attorney, where he denied allegations that he had raped. 00:10:36 Speaker 4: Sarah went out to the police station with him and was in a room where Eric coropper with him as to answering a lot of questions to the part to where they asked me, did I actually do the crime? And I think I can just tell her this, lamb, I don't know nothing about it. 00:10:55 Speaker 2: The more I know about it is what y'all telling me right now. And I don't know nothing about it. None of that. 00:11:01 Speaker 3: However, based on the statements that Sarah made, or rather was alleged to have made two doctors that day, mister Brown was arrested on the charge of aggravated rape. 00:11:17 Speaker 4: It was something unspeakable, you know, it's really speakable to well get you off for something that you didn't do, that didn't actually putting this charge on me, but some kind of way that everything parted at me for some reason. I don't know why, because maybe I probably do know why, because the way I was to the type of person I would and that side. 00:11:45 Speaker 2: Of the family didn't really want me to be with their daughter. 00:11:51 Speaker 4: But like I said, she was my soldier, she was my everything. 00:11:55 Speaker 2: You know. I would protect car. I would lose my life to give her and the kids. 00:12:20 Speaker 4: So I never talked to nobody while I was in jail about it, but I was going back and forth to court with it and doing a pre trial investigation and all that is really really kind of hurtful because it was like, this is really actually happened. You know, you're taking me to the trial behind something I did not do. And where is the evidence because I ain't seen evidence at all, because I know they're supposed to do a rape kit and all that, and ain didn't no rape kit and didn't no joining the blood and that ain't did nothing to take down evidence DNA and did not that. 00:12:56 Speaker 3: After he was arrested, he was given a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars bond. His family could not afford the roughly thirty thousand dollars that it would have cost him to pay a bail bondsman, so mister Brown spent more than nine months in jail waiting to go to trial. His family also could not afford an attorney, so Robert Jenkins, an attorney from the Orleans Parish Indigent Defender Panel, was appointed to represent mister Brown. 00:13:24 Speaker 1: Can you give us a rundown of the details of the trial December thirteenth, nineteen ninety four. Who was the judge, the name of the prosecutor absolutely so. 00:13:35 Speaker 3: Mister Brown went to trial in Section A of Orleans Parish Criminal District Court in front of Judge Morris Reid. The prosecutor on the case was David Wolfe. 00:13:45 Speaker 1: And the District Attorney at the time was the notorious Harry Connick Senior, who headed up the Orleans Parish DA's office from nineteen seventy three to two thousand and three. Jason's covered some of the many wrongful convictions that occurred under Connick's watch on this podcast. His office was known for withholding and suppressing evidence. In fact, the Innocence Project of New Orleans estimates that during his tenure, favorable evidence was withheld in the trials of one in four men sent to death row. 00:14:19 Speaker 3: The trial started that evening with opening statements and it concluded the next day. We don't actually know the full extent of what happened during the trial, because, as mister Brown learned over the nearly thirty years that he fought his conviction. Since his direct appeal, no trial's transcript has actually been made available. When the case was reopened by the District Attorney's office in twenty twenty three. We still could not find a transcript despite many, many, many efforts. However, what we do know is that the whole trial lasted about a day and a half from the time of jury selection to the time a verdict was delivered, which, when you think about it, is deeply concerning considering the mandatory sentence for aggravated rape at the time and still today, is life without the possibility of parole. 00:15:11 Speaker 1: Kelly who testified in the trial and whose behalf did they testify on. 00:15:18 Speaker 3: Zarah was twice brought into the court to testify, and twice her nose started to bleed as soon as she took the stand and questions began, which was something that was really common for her at the time whenever she was in a very stressful situation, and so she was dismissed. No accommodations were made for her to testify in private, and instead the state called doctor Wilcox to testify in her place, and recalled doctor Wilcox was the first physician to examine her. 00:15:51 Speaker 1: The child being questioned in front of the whole court instead of the judge's chambers. Like what is your opinion on that. I mean, it's obviously so traumatic and stressful to the child that they're having this physical reaction after being raped. It just seems that the victim wasn't being thought of. 00:16:12 Speaker 3: I completely agree. I think, you know, cases like this are really tough because we keep courtrooms public for really important reasons, to make sure that crucial decisions in our justice system that carry serious consequences that compromise people's liberty interests do not happen in private. And when witnesses testify juries are empowered to make a decision about that witness's credibility. So, to answer your question, I think there's a tension because we want to make sure that people are safe. We want to make sure that children who have been harmed are not re traumatized, but we also have to ensure that the Constitution is followed, that liberty interests are not compromised in private. That being said, I do believe that accommodations could have been made to make Sarah more comfortable and less stressed, and that is crucial here because as we know, as Sarah has told us in the decades since this happened, she did not say what doctor Wilcox alleged that she said, and so had she had the opportunity to testify, she would have been able to say the truth. She would have been able to testify that she did not accuse Patrick of rape, and that was a very crucial fact for the jury to have. Instead, adults testified for her. 00:17:43 Speaker 1: And instead, what did the jury hear from doctor Wilcox. 00:17:48 Speaker 3: Doctor Wilcox testified to what was in what was recorded in his notes that Sarah had told him that Patrick put his penis in me down there, a statement that we now know and knew at the time had the police disclosed it, that was not was what was actually said in the doctor's office. So they were able to introduce the doctor's report with no scrutindy with this statement that never got to be cross examined. So what happened then is she never got a chance to tell her story. So the jury convicts mister Brown of aggravated rape in Louisiana. Age of the victim as an aggravating factor, and she was six years old at the time that she was raped. So he was sentenced to Manna Story life without the possibility of parole and was sent to the Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola. 00:19:07 Speaker 4: The hardest part being inculcerated is that you lose a family member while you're in now and I lost several family members. 00:19:18 Speaker 2: My mom, she went to three. 00:19:20 Speaker 4: Open house surgeries who I was incarcerated, and some people that really loved me, like my grandmother, my aunt's cousins, they passed away while I was incarcerated. And that's the hardest part to where they didn't want let you go out, to go to any funerals. 00:19:37 Speaker 2: Or none of that. 00:19:40 Speaker 4: And with the type of charge that they placed me on, you know, kind of restrict me from everything to where at a certain age I had to see my daughter once she get older, and any one of my family members they can't come in as a child. Those certain things I couldn't do. I couldn't go around certain people, certain jobs I can't have because of the charge. 00:20:05 Speaker 1: I'm incredibly sorry that you experienced that. That must have been so hard to be stigmatized like that and for something you did not do. 00:20:18 Speaker 4: From the time my clceration. You know, I had to try to make it work for me. 00:20:23 Speaker 2: I had to. 00:20:25 Speaker 4: Due to times didn't let the time do me. So at the time I was in there, you know, I educated myself. I become a better person, becomes a mentor, and I'm becoming helping a lot of people out there at a goaler, even down to from the ofenity security staff. 00:20:44 Speaker 2: To where I got. 00:20:45 Speaker 4: To know them and they got to know me, and they see that I'm not a really bad person, you know, from that part from being that goal being, it's separate criticism from a lot of dudes that's around there. Really nothing really case hurt me no more because I'm all crowd out from that and anything that's not positive, I just don't want to be around it. But on my coasure that you know, they had those there and they were going through a lot of things that they need mentor that they talked to, and especially that's what I did. At one point in time in my life. I did lost hope. I did lost I hope to where I wouldn't come home. I wasn't gonna be with my family again. And I had looted in my mind to not be a commodity to the system to where you just holding me there and collecting money off of me. And I'm doing this and doing that to keep a prison function to where dang, I ain't had the more hope because you know it ain't goal inside of prison. Contraband comes and goes in there, and the most dealy contraband that they had in there was that fit now and that fit now into the person to where I did wanted to take that just the end this life because I didn't want that type of life inside of a system behind something I. 00:22:13 Speaker 2: Did not do. 00:22:13 Speaker 4: And then you know when I got there, dude, say life, I mean lock in forever. Man, ain't no going home. The next place I would be was a party lookout, mister penitentious cemetery. That's why I was gonna be and I was still going to be incocerated. 00:22:32 Speaker 1: What kept you going, Patrick? What gave you hope? 00:22:35 Speaker 4: My family kept coming and fishing me talk to my daughter every day on the phone. My daughter was a month and eight days old when I got arrested. From that time that she would just obaby she don't know nothing about the charge. And she fought for me too. She fought to keep me well, I keep hope going. She wanted her daddy. That kept me going down with my heart. She kept me going, She kept me fight, ca me find this to be with them, so she could have a fault in our life. 00:23:11 Speaker 1: So if you could, Kelly speak to uh, if you recall when you first heard about mister Brown's case, what stood out to you like as a human and what drew you to essentially work on the case and kind of like how your relationship started those early days. 00:23:28 Speaker 3: So I got a call on March twenty fourth of twenty twenty three from the District Attorney's office, Jason William's office. It was specifically from Assistant District Attorney Emily maw who is the head of the civil rights division in the office. And I was asked if I was available to come in immediately, and I was told that a young woman had just come into their office and had essentially said that the wrong person was in prison for raping her. That's a pretty extraordinary call to get. You don't often say no when a district attorney's office calls you as a defense attorney and says, we think we have someone in prison who shouldn't be there. I didn't need much more information than that. 00:24:12 Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, So what did they tell you when you got to their office. 00:24:17 Speaker 3: On that day? What we knew is that in two thousand and two, when Sarah was fourteen years old, was when she first attempted to get the District Attorney's office to listen to her about the fact that the wrong man was in prison for raping her. She explained that she estimated that she had written at least one hundred letters to the District Attorney's office. 00:24:41 Speaker 1: And the DA at that time was still Harry Conic Senior. 00:24:45 Speaker 3: In twenty fifteen, she submitted an affidavit to the District Attorney's office at this time led by Leon Canazero, declaring that mister Brown was not the person who raped her and identifying by name the man who did. She remembers going to the DA's office at least four times, but it wasn't until the fourth time, on March twenty fourth, twenty twenty three, that someone in that office actually decided to listen to her. 00:25:11 Speaker 1: And that was, of course, after Leon Connazaro had been succeeded as a District attorney by Jason Williams, who was elected in twenty twenty. 00:25:21 Speaker 3: And they immediately began reinvestigating her case. And I think what was most important to the investigators and to myself was Sarah's incredible credibility, her ability to recall in detail the efforts that she had made over more than two decades to undo this injustice and for the truth to be accepted by the DA's office. And part of what also bolstered her credibility was how deeply deeply harmed she was by having this truth ignored. 00:26:03 Speaker 1: What drew me to this story or this you know, hearing about mister Brown's experiences and Sarah's experience is that it really highlights how important it is to listen to survivors and for their voices to be heard. And you know, on the other side of that, the detriment that can happen to us when we're not heard. Two and a half perpetrators out of one hundred that rape actually end up in prison. That's the current statistics. And I mean, working with survivors every day, I know that, like the trust just isn't there, that the effort will be meaningful and it won't just do more harm. And I think that's a really sad reality and a place to be, but it's one that we need to sit with because it's so important that we address it because it's absolutely not okay. 00:26:57 Speaker 3: It's absolutely not okay. 00:26:59 Speaker 1: And it's just a very heartbreaking, very heartbreaking example of the many cracks within the system. Kelly, What was the post conviction process like that led you from taking this case on to ultimately mister Brown's release. 00:27:20 Speaker 3: One thing that I think is very important, and I want to throw it in there, is that mister Brown litigated his case himself for two decades. In fact, the petition that was granted on May eighth was actually the one that mister Brown filed himself pro see over a year before this hearing. In it, he argued factual innocence under a very new law in Louisiana that allows you to plead factual innocence. So the DA's office actually filed their response to mister Brown's pro sae petition, and before they did this, they reviewed all of the available records. They reinterviewed witnesses, consulted with law enforcement, and spent a considerable amount of time listening to Sarah and assessing her credibility as well as verifying the details in the story that she told them. After reviewing all available records, they found clear and convincing evidence that mister Brown was factually innocent, and based on their filing their response to mister Brown's p say petition. They found a few things. Most compelling those were the fact that Sarah stated unequivocally and on multiple occasions that mister Brown was not the man who raped her. Also that in twenty fifteen, she submitted a sworn affidavit to the DA's office, in it stating that mister Brown was not the person who raped her and naming the person that did. They also considered testimony and statements from the time the case was pre trial that indicated that during a fight with the victim's mother, a man gloated about raping Sarah and about the fact that mister Brown was doing time for the crime. 00:29:01 Speaker 1: That sounds like it would have been a pretty major incident for the defense to explore, but somehow the jury never heard about it. Can you tell us more about that exchange and why it was not brought up a trial. 00:29:13 Speaker 3: So this fight occurred well before the trial, near the time that mister Brown was indicted on the charge of aggravated rape. The prosecution was aware of this fight, it is not entirely clear how accurately that evidence was provided to the defense. We know definitively that the fact that there were witnesses to this fight and witnesses to this admission that was not disclosed to the defense. 00:29:42 Speaker 1: And what was said during the fight that was significant. 00:29:46 Speaker 4: He stated, I know that your daughter has got rape and I ain't gonna be the one to do the time. 00:29:53 Speaker 3: For and I believe he also said, you know that mister Brown is doing time for somebody else's crime. And it's just it's almost irrefutable, right, Like that's a very relevant fact for a jury to hear and understand. This is the same man that Sarah stated raped her in the affidavit that she gave to the DA's office in twenty fifteen. They submitted this information to the court and on May eighth, an evidentiary hearing was held. And so when Sarah took the stand to testify, she was able to look at mister Brown, who was sitting at the table next to me, and she told the court about her twenty year effort to be able to sit where she was that day and tell the truth of what happened to her. At the end of that hearing, Judge Calvin Johnson delivered his ruling, and before he did, he addressed Sarah and mister Brown directly, and I'll never forget what he said, and I want to repeat it verbatim. He said the state was complicit in the harm and horror that Sarah endured. He then vacated mister Brown's conviction and granted mister Brown a new trial, and Emily maw the Chief of the Civil Rights Division, immediately revised the bill of information that was filed against him in nineteen ninety four and immediately dismissed the charges. That day, he was able to hug Sarah, he was able to hug his family, and he was able to walk out of the front steps and not have to go back to Angola. 00:31:26 Speaker 1: Patrick, I can't imagine what it must have felt like to be in that courtroom with Sarah and to hear her testimony, and for both of you, after almost thirty years, to finally be heard. 00:31:41 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was. 00:31:46 Speaker 4: Unbelievable. It was beautiful. I know that this person came out and being hurried you it will kind. 00:31:55 Speaker 2: Of helped heal me. Heal me a whole lot so well. 00:32:00 Speaker 4: Once she gave a testa moment she finished gaving a testiment, she came up and she hugged me. And once she hugged me in the court room. I felt her pain, she felt mine. She told me that she was sorry that I have to go through it. I told her that I was sorry too, that I wouldn't death for I got supposed. 00:32:23 Speaker 2: To say that she loved me. 00:32:31 Speaker 5: I told her that I love her back say say you never go back there. I know you never go back. I told her that I'll never leave him again. Only way that I leave this. 00:32:48 Speaker 1: Please, thank you so much, Oh my goodness, thank you so so much for your time and your willingness. It is incredibly brave to be this vulnerable in such a public way, and I just want to hold space and acknowledge that what you did today is an incredibly big thing, and I wish you and your family all of the best in the future. And yeah, thank you so so much. We also want to let our listeners know that there's a GoFundMe page to help you get back on your feet. So listeners, if you want to show your support for Patrick as he starts this new chapter in his life, please look for Patrick Brown on GoFundMe dot com or go to the link in our episode bio. Now, this is the part of the show that we call closing arguments. We'd like to hear your final thoughts, anything at all that you want to share with listeners or that you hope listeners will take away from hearing this story. Kelly, can we hear you're closing arguments first, and then we'll hear from Patrick. 00:34:03 Speaker 3: This is the first exoneration that I have ever been involved in, and I am horrified by what I've learned through this process. I also think it's really important to remember that what happened to mister Brown is a symptom of a diseased system that puts not only people who are factually innocent in prison, but puts people in prison who should not be there in the first place, people who have caused harm, but who also have a larger story, who have a story that is often rarely ever heard, usually until decades later. And so I hope that mister Brown's story will inspire us not just to look at the cases of people who are actually innocent, but the cases of all people who are in prison, to question and continue questioning is prison really an answer and an effective answer to the harm that's occurring in our community. It has been, in my experience a one hundred and fifty year experiment that has failed. It has not served people that have been harmed, It has not brought justice to victims and survivors. I know that we can do better. I believe that we can do better, and I hope that all of us will be inspired to take a second look at this system that we have become so dependent on and taken for granted, and challenge ourselves to radically reimagine what justice and safety and health look like in our communities and try to do so much better than we have done. 00:35:50 Speaker 4: To all the listeners, adele, be mindful what you do, because it just ain't gonna hurt that person they hurt. 00:35:58 Speaker 2: Out of people's. 00:36:00 Speaker 4: Be truthful to yourself and others to the point to where we need to stop all the nonsense and be straightforward with ourselves. That's not putting an instant person in jail. Let's stop the follows. Let's just stop all that because this ain't worth it. We all just come together, no matter and I we love no color race. 00:36:25 Speaker 2: Get along. 00:36:26 Speaker 4: It's time for us people to get along and enjoy life in charge is beautiful world that God gave us. Because if we don't have nothing, you know who else we can depend on. We basically depend on the people that's around us. You know, we don't know nobody until we open our mouth and start communicate. Want to start communicating, we start learning people, and we. 00:36:49 Speaker 2: Have a better world. 00:36:51 Speaker 4: And I really appreciate you all listening and have a good heart from your heart to life itself. Hope y'all have a good heart. 00:37:10 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this and all Lava for Good podcasts one week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'd like to thank executive producers Jason Flamm, Jeff Kempler, and Kevin Wardis for inviting me to sit in today, and thanks to our production team Connor Hall, Annie Chelsea, Lela Robinson, and Kathleen Fink. The music in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can follow me Tiffany Reese at Looky Boo and listen to my podcast Something Was Wrong wherever you get your podcasts. Wrongful Conviction is a pre production of Lava for Good podcasts in association with signal company Number one