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Who Took William Lilly’s Fish? · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
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Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
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Speaker 1: much for tuning in. That's our super producer, Max the
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Speaker 1: big Fish Williams. We've got something really exciting today, Noel Brown,
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Speaker 1: I'm Ben Bolin. We are Yes, Yes, we are introducing
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Speaker 1: our brand new research associate, Ames Doyle. Ah.
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Speaker 2: Yes, welcome Ames, if only in spirit. And indeed we
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Speaker 2: have talked to Ames about possibly jumping on as a
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Speaker 2: guest for a future topic. But yeah, this is their
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Speaker 2: inaugural research brief for Ridiculous History, and it's quite a doozy.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a story that you and I had never
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Speaker 1: heard of before. This is very much a tale involving astrology.
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Speaker 1: It's very much a tale involving a little bit of
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Speaker 1: mystery and intrigue and solving of aforementioned mysteries. As Ames
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Speaker 1: tells us, before there were TikTok astrologers and apps to
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Speaker 1: warn you of an impending mercury retrograde, there was a
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Speaker 1: guy named William Lily, not to be confused with Eli Lily.
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Speaker 1: William is a seventeenth century English astrologer and no, I
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Speaker 1: gotta tell you in the interest in transparency. I'm not
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Speaker 1: on TikTok. I know it's similar to Reddit or other
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Speaker 1: social media in that there are all these niche communities,
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Speaker 1: but it makes sense to me that there would be
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Speaker 1: TikTok astrologers.
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Speaker 2: It sure does.
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Speaker 1: I mean, do you uh do do you mess with
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Speaker 1: the talk?
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Speaker 2: I know I'm not a talker. I'm a talker, but
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Speaker 2: I'm not a tickety talker, and it's it's I don't know.
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Speaker 2: I see things reposted elsewhere, so I feel like I'm
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Speaker 2: more or less up to date. But I tried it
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Speaker 2: a couple of times, and I've found the algorithm aggressive,
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Speaker 2: let's just put it that way. I didn't like how
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Speaker 2: much it knew about me so quickly, and how much
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Speaker 2: it kind of played to my basest, least admirable instincts.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and as long time listeners of ridiculous history or
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Speaker 1: indeed stuff they don't want you to know or already
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Speaker 1: well aware, my paranoia disallows me from engaging with TikTok.
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Speaker 1: But aimes, we believe you, and we can't wait to
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Speaker 1: hear over on our Facebook page Ridiculous Historians, which makes
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Speaker 1: us sound super old. We can't wait to hear your
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Speaker 1: takes on TikTok astrologers, astrology in general. Our guy Lily
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Speaker 1: is a big deal in his time in the seventeenth century.
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Speaker 1: Because we always use this idiom in modern English, we
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Speaker 1: say someone wrote the book on insert topic. Here turns
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Speaker 1: out that our guy Willie literally did write the book
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Speaker 1: on astrology in his area, and he was famous in
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Speaker 1: his field for a certain type or sect of astrology
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Speaker 1: called horrory hrry.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think we're going to get into it
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Speaker 2: with this interests both of us because it was a
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Speaker 2: type of astrology that was pioneered by ancient Islamic folks,
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Speaker 2: and both of us. When we were in Doha, Kutthar
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Speaker 2: went to the Islamic Museum of Culture and there were
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Speaker 2: quite a few astrological exhibits there, includingstrological charts, various implements
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Speaker 2: and texts and things like that. I think that was
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Speaker 2: both of our favorite part of that museum, with so
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Speaker 2: many of the illuminated texts and all that, but lots
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Speaker 2: of astrology in that place.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah, And our guy Lily uses this specific sect
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Speaker 1: of astrology, which, as you said, Noel, we'll get into
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Speaker 1: in a moment to not just divine hidden truths about
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Speaker 1: personalities or predilections, the way you would be, the way
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Speaker 1: you would see your son's sign described in a newspaper today. Instead,
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Speaker 1: he was doing a kind of divination that allowed him,
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Speaker 1: in theory, to find lost items and then to also
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Speaker 1: narrow down where to look for these items or these
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Speaker 1: hidden or lost things, and to figure out predict we
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Speaker 1: could say, whether the thing would be found at all.
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Speaker 1: And this is this is a new story to us, folks.
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Speaker 1: One of the most memorable cases of William Lily's career
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Speaker 1: involves the mysterious disappearance of fish ed onions that he
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Speaker 1: ordered from London, which already sounds like a Guy Ritchie film.
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Speaker 2: Right, I know, it really does fishing onions in it. Yeah. No,
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Speaker 2: it's also a delightful breakfast. But you got to add
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Speaker 2: some eggs in there. Go to Barney green Grass on
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Speaker 2: the Upper West Side of New York, get their famous
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Speaker 2: sturgeon and onions and eggs, and it's fantastic. I believe
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Speaker 2: it was one of Anthony Bourdain's favorite breakfasts.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're very indeficient eggs over at parties.
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Speaker 1: And you know, William was clearly in deficient onions at
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Speaker 1: some point in his life. He started out not as
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Speaker 1: like a Francis scott Key silver spoon dude. He started
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Speaker 1: out the child of a modest farming family in England
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Speaker 1: in sixteen o two. And this is an inspiring story
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Speaker 1: because his parents, you know, and they're not aristocrats, they're
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Speaker 1: not the one percenters of their time, but they do
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Speaker 1: really support their kids and despite the fact that they
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Speaker 1: have to save every penny they can, just like just
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Speaker 1: like Charlie's family in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, they
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Speaker 1: do save up money and they send them off to
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Speaker 1: get what Encyclopedia Britannica calls a quote tolerably good classic
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Speaker 1: education end quote. And he hopes to continue into hire
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Speaker 1: education right after his classic education, but unfortunately his family
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Speaker 1: just doesn't have the cheddar for it. They don't have
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Speaker 1: fishing onions for it, which is a phrase we're making
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Speaker 1: up to use as money and William Lily would have
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Speaker 1: as well. He took a job as a secretary in
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Speaker 1: London for a fellow named Gilbert Wright, the master of
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Speaker 1: the Assalter's Company. His father was in debtors prison at
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Speaker 1: the time, but was still happy to see him gone,
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Speaker 1: calling him a.
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Speaker 2: Quote good for nothing. I think we need to bring
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Speaker 2: that back as harsh as it made me. I do
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Speaker 2: love a good for nothing? No, a lay about a
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Speaker 2: shiftless lout, Yeah, harsh man. Lily worked for Wright for
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Speaker 2: seven years until Wright passed away in sixteen twenty seven,
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Speaker 2: after which he almost immediately proposed marriage to his freshly
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Speaker 2: widowed widow Ellen.
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Speaker 1: Hey, Ellen, No, it's a weird time, but we've been
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Speaker 1: through a lot other than gesturing around at the funeral.
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Speaker 1: What's your weekend looking like?
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Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah. It seems like she went for it, though.
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Speaker 2: Six years later, Ellen passed away herself and left all
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Speaker 2: of her fortune to Lily. Property didn't get married.
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Speaker 1: He didn't get it was the Robinson thing, because Willie
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Speaker 1: is twenty five at this.
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Speaker 2: Where have you gone, Joe Demaggio? Indeed, this property was
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Speaker 2: valued roughly one thousand pounds or a boop? Is what
8:20
Speaker 2: we need? Calculator tells us, Yes, the inflation calculation Nation
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Speaker 2: Station tells us that that's around two hundred thousand pounds
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Speaker 2: sterling in today's money. I'm not sure what that equates
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Speaker 2: you in euros, but where that's that's a bridge too
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Speaker 2: far with his newly acquired fortune, William Lilly was able
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Speaker 2: to live the life of luxury that he's so well
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Speaker 2: believed he deserves. He had plenty of idle time, which obviously,
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Speaker 2: as we know, is the devil's playground. He used it
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Speaker 2: to study astrology, which some at the time may have
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Speaker 2: called the devil's work.
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Speaker 1: Yes, and I don't know whether we have a been
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Speaker 1: with the facts sound que here we must we did
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Speaker 1: the math, folks, and two hundred thousand pounds sterling is
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Speaker 1: the equivalent of two hundred and thirty four thousand and
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Speaker 1: forty nine euros.
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Speaker 2: That seeking in the fun bad and he's fallen knowledge.
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Speaker 2: It's just for you right now here, tead the fact.
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Speaker 1: So this is a life changing amount of money, right
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Speaker 1: And I love that you're saying this could have been
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Speaker 1: seen as heretical to study astrology. We have to remember
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Speaker 1: that at this time in history it is far more
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Speaker 1: common to be a self educated expert who is accepted
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Speaker 1: in your field. So he's not at Cambridge right reading
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Speaker 1: law or some like that. Instead, he is snagging every
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Speaker 1: single text he can get on every concept or approach
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Speaker 1: to astrology, and then he attempts to become a practicing astrologer.
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Speaker 1: So he's not just ingesting this knowledge, he's synthesizing it.
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Speaker 1: He's putting his own spin on it, he's adding to it,
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Speaker 1: he's revising all the stuff he reads. He strikes us
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Speaker 1: as kind of a actually guy, you know what I mean?
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Speaker 1: Like he reads a book and says, actually, this other
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Speaker 1: book I read earlier, says this other thing. And he's
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Speaker 1: putting it within the context of his time, especially within
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Speaker 1: political events. So if something crazy happens with the monarchy
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Speaker 1: of his day, he looks to the heavens and he says,
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Speaker 1: does this corarely with movements of the planet? And can
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Speaker 1: if I can plain what's happening now through the discipline
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Speaker 1: of astrology, which I'm increasingly making my own, could I
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Speaker 1: begin to cultivate a predictive ability?
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Speaker 2: Right?
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Speaker 1: Could I? Could I go from saying, oh, this bad
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Speaker 1: thing happened with this duke here while these planets were
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Speaker 1: doing this, and from there, can I say, I know
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Speaker 1: these planets will do certain things, and therefore I know
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Speaker 1: what the duke will do in the future.
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Speaker 2: Bit nonlinear, don't you think?
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Speaker 1: Yeah?
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Speaker 2: A bit a bit, there's there's I'm sorry, bet it
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Speaker 2: just really it brings to mind this fantastic Brian eno
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Speaker 2: lyric from the song Backwater. And it's also just a
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Speaker 2: great turner phrase here, a great rhyme scheme, but it's
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Speaker 2: if it's But if you study the logistics and heuristics
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Speaker 2: of the mystics, you will find that their minds rarely
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Speaker 2: move in a line. So it's much more realistic to
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Speaker 2: abandon such ballistics and resign to be trapped on a
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Speaker 2: leak in the vine.
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Speaker 1: And we persist in loving internal rhyme right.
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Speaker 2: Anyway, Sorry to drop a reference.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and thanks for tuning in Brian. So once his
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Speaker 1: astrological practices evolve, Lily begins to uh begins to believe
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Speaker 1: that his divination is creating reliable results, so much so
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Speaker 1: that he starts publishing almanacs with his predictions, similar to
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Speaker 1: the way that much later Benjamin Franklin will start publishing
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Speaker 1: the Farmer's Almanac. And if we go to sources like
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Speaker 1: Explore Astrology, we will see this confirmed. Lily began publishing
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Speaker 1: these almanacs, which were predictive every single year. They became
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Speaker 1: very very popular. His first had a banger name. In
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Speaker 1: sixteen forty four, he published mon Than This Agnoicus junior,
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Speaker 1: which I think is cool and humble that he had
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Speaker 1: a junior.
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, just as a little humbling diminutive, you know.
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Speaker 2: Caveat there at the end.
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Speaker 1: And the readers. Part of the reason this became so
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Speaker 1: famous is because the readers were certain that this almanac
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Speaker 1: foretold the defeat of the king at the Battle of
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Speaker 1: Naseby in sixteen forty five. So a year before that
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Speaker 1: defeat occurred, this book said that it would happen. And
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Speaker 1: now he starts becoming known as England's leading astrologer, and
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Speaker 1: people from every imaginable demographic of the weird archipelago that
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Speaker 1: we call England started saying, man, this guy is super
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Speaker 1: Dupe's accurate. We see people who are high profile members
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Speaker 1: of aristocratic society, like John Selden, becoming Lily fans. We
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Speaker 1: see members of Parliament like William Lenthall becoming Lily fans.
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Speaker 1: And the thing is, as a lot of us know
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Speaker 1: from unfortunate personal experience, when you become an expert in
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Speaker 1: a very specific given field, and when very important, powerful
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Speaker 1: people start paying attention to your expertise.
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Speaker 2: Oh they very illiterative, ben Well, no, thank you, sir.
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Speaker 1: Those powerful people start pulling you into their orbit. We're
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Speaker 1: doing astrology jokes, So Lily Lily inevitably gets wrapped up
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Speaker 1: in the politics of a revolutionary England.
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Speaker 2: Merlinus Anglicus Junior. It's a cool, It's really dope. No,
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Speaker 2: I like that a lot. Lily, however, was pretty staunchly
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Speaker 2: ant high monarchists, which could have ruffled some feathers, right,
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Speaker 2: and was known to work with clients from every walk
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Speaker 2: of life. He was not an elitist, and who he
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Speaker 2: decided to do readings for his clientele's background did show
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Speaker 2: This is according to astro dot Com that Astrology's social
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Speaker 2: reach was relatively wide. Around twenty percent of his customers
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Speaker 2: is a direct quote from that piece were of noble birth.
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Speaker 2: Another twenty percent worked in traditional trades and crafts, fifteen
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Speaker 2: percent were seafarers, less than one percent were paupers, military men,
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Speaker 2: and professionals such as lawyers and physicians. Interesting. I would
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Speaker 2: imagine lawyers and physicians might be more likely to essue
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Speaker 2: the you know, the astrological arts.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an interesting note, nol, because we have to
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Speaker 1: remember at this time we're still in very much in
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Speaker 1: the age of like alchemy, right, we're still very much
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Speaker 1: in the age of the Bible, for instance, at being
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Speaker 1: treated as a scientific text. So we have these very
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Speaker 1: learned folks who are also it's paradoxical because they're very
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Speaker 1: closed minded, right in pursuit of religious beliefs, but in
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Speaker 1: pursuit of things that don't seem opposed to religion specifically,
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Speaker 1: they're pretty open minded. So, and also, people love to
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Speaker 1: hear more about themselves. People love predictability, they love the future.
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Speaker 1: He had a huge list of clients. His biggest demographic
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Speaker 1: from our source astro dot com here was probably female servants.
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Speaker 1: So he was kind of an everyman in this case.
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Speaker 1: I don't care who you are, just reach out to me.
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Speaker 1: This is my vocation and I will help you figure
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Speaker 1: out what the heavens mean. This leads to further fame
16:59
Speaker 1: for him, right, he's a man of the people, an
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Speaker 1: astrologer of the people. He publishes Christian Astrology. It's a
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Speaker 1: three part anthology. It's a three part collection. He publishes
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Speaker 1: it in sixteen forty seven. And no, I think this
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Speaker 1: is very clever because he's nipping these accusations of heresy
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Speaker 1: off in the butt, or he's nipping them at the butt. Weirdly,
17:22
Speaker 1: we're talked about the right way to say that off air, like.
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Speaker 2: Three, I think we got there. But no, you're right,
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Speaker 2: he's ascribing a certain connection to but you know, one
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Speaker 2: could also argue that certain clergy might take issue with
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Speaker 2: him even connecting these types of pursuits with Christianity as well. Well,
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Speaker 2: you see what he's doing for their feathers begetting ruffled.
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Speaker 2: It's true. It was the first substantial astrological text written
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Speaker 2: in the English language rather than Latin, making the study
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Speaker 2: of the stars accessible to everyone as opposed to just
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Speaker 2: these small, highly educated elites groups of elites. Rather, it
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Speaker 2: was incredibly popular, as it remains to this day and
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Speaker 2: it has not gone out of print. Yeah, this is cool.
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Speaker 1: This is like the Vulgate Bible, you know. Now it's
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Speaker 1: power to the people. We're kind of democratizing the analysis
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Speaker 1: of the Heavens and Lily's book along with his you know,
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Speaker 1: yearly predictive pamphlets, they make him more and more popular.
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Speaker 1: He's becoming kind of like a Neil deGrasse Tyson figure.
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Speaker 1: You know, he is a go to expert when people
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Speaker 1: are looking for an authoritative voice about the subject. They're
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Speaker 1: inevitably quoting William Lily and he you know, it makes
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Speaker 1: sense because in a time where where books are way
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Speaker 1: less common, he is selling thirty thousand copies a year
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Speaker 1: of these pamphlets. And he also, as we mentioned, he
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Speaker 1: specializes in horrory astrology. This this is what fuels his
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Speaker 1: client work because this is nuts, right, So imagine this
19:07
Speaker 1: path to success. You've got you've got a book which
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Speaker 1: is like a master work, and then you've got an
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Speaker 1: annual zine essentially that anybody can buy, right if they
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Speaker 1: can afford it. And then if they have more money
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Speaker 1: and more interest, you can commission this guy to specifically
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Speaker 1: work for you. You can become his client, and that
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Speaker 1: ultimately leads to the case we're going to discuss today.
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Speaker 1: But no what see, we return to what we set
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Speaker 1: up at the top. We talked about horory astrology as
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Speaker 1: a sect, and you talked about the Islamic Golden Age.
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Speaker 1: Can we break that down a little?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, we sure can. Horrari which is a Latin term
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Speaker 2: that means of the hour. It's a type of astrology
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Speaker 2: involving ancient divination techniques. As far as we can tell,
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Speaker 2: these were largely developed in the eighth and ninth centuries
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Speaker 2: by Persian and Arab astrologers and what is called the
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Speaker 2: Islamic Golden Age, which again is the kind of stuff
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Speaker 2: that's fully on display at that Museum of Islamic Culture,
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Speaker 2: a fascinating place if you ever get a chance to visit.
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Speaker 2: The technique of horrory. By the way, horology is the
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Speaker 2: study of time or like if you're talking about watches
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Speaker 2: and stuff, that's the term that gets used, so that
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Speaker 2: makes sense. This particular technique is used in a very
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Speaker 2: functional and practical manner to answer questions such as should
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Speaker 2: I marry this person, will I get this job? Or
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Speaker 2: where's my dear sweet lost dog Fido. There are meant
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Speaker 2: to be tangible answers that present themselves relatively quickly, which
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Speaker 2: makes this a method that the average person can kind
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Speaker 2: of wrap their head around. It's pretty impressive and easily
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Speaker 2: accessible form of astrology for those reasons.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, This practicality of predictability is a huge win
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Speaker 1: for the audience, right, especially when you feel that the
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Speaker 1: results are coming true. Right, you get an answer to
21:13
Speaker 1: your question, should I marry this person? Will I get
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Speaker 1: this job? What the heck? What is philo up? To.
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Speaker 1: When you get those immediate answers, it further galvanizes you
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Speaker 1: toward that belief. So this is good for business. This
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Speaker 1: is also good for the defense of this type of
21:32
Speaker 1: astrology as a pursuit. It has a ton of rules,
21:37
Speaker 1: which a lot of these disciplines do. So these rules
21:41
Speaker 1: include like specific conditions that you have to meet before
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Speaker 1: you can cast an astrological chart and get a real answer.
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Speaker 1: You have to have guidelines for what makes a chart
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Speaker 1: or reading readable. And sometimes if you don't obey these rules, you,
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Speaker 1: as the astrologer or the diviner, get what Ames calls
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Speaker 1: a magic eight ball message, wherein you're told to try
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Speaker 1: another day. William Lilly, to his credit, breaks this down
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Speaker 1: in a very understandable, step by step series of instructions.
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Speaker 1: He says, here's how you choose what is significant. Here's
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Speaker 1: how you evaluate what he calls dignity. Here's how you
22:29
Speaker 1: judge your outcomes. How do we interpret the data that
22:33
Speaker 1: we are driving And it's from his mind. As far
22:39
Speaker 1: as we can tell, he is not a stake oil salesman.
22:42
Speaker 1: This is crucial. He is not trying to grift people.
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Speaker 1: He wants to pay, be paid honestly for his work,
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Speaker 1: but he believes in what he's doing as well.
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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, so he is.
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Speaker 1: Not thinking of his clients or his reading audience as
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Speaker 1: a bunch of marks and roobs. He is being truthful
23:01
Speaker 1: and sincere, and he's prizing his own integrity unlike a
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Speaker 1: lot of practitioners of the spiritual movement, you know, of
23:11
Speaker 1: the I believe early what.
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Speaker 2: Is it eighteen hundreds, I want to say, we did
23:14
Speaker 2: an episode on every Osophist Theosophus, and a lot of
23:17
Speaker 2: it was smoking literal smoke, and mirrors, Pepper's ghost type
23:21
Speaker 2: effects and all, you know, in an effort to grift
23:24
Speaker 2: people who were in mourning potentially out of their money.
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Speaker 1: Which was one of my favorite episodes or series that
23:32
Speaker 1: we had with our nemesis, Jonathan Strickland aka the Quiz Your.
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Speaker 2: That is what that call.
23:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, he hates those guys. I feel like he must
23:43
Speaker 1: have gotten he must have been taken in by a
23:45
Speaker 1: seos at some point earlier in life, because he's like
23:49
Speaker 1: Harry Hodini in his approbrium towards those people. So as
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Speaker 1: he could tell from all this all this characterization, our
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Speaker 1: guy will lily, which is a fun phrase to say,
24:05
Speaker 1: was Willie Lil's perfectly. He was quite accomplished. He was
24:10
Speaker 1: considered very very good at this, and he was also
24:14
Speaker 1: considered more importantly, very very accurate. Now we've established this guy,
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Speaker 1: a lot of people are pinning their future hopes and
24:23
Speaker 1: fears on his system and his take on the passage
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Speaker 1: of the planets and the stars. But what happens when
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Speaker 1: he starts applying his discipline to his own life, to
24:38
Speaker 1: his own personal problems. You know, this is, by the way,
24:42
Speaker 1: a shout out to everybody who has been desperately waiting
24:48
Speaker 1: for a FedEx or Amazon or USPS delivery. I gotta
24:54
Speaker 1: tell you, guys, Noel Max. Nothing quite screws up your
24:59
Speaker 1: day like having a package delivered.
25:02
Speaker 2: That you have to sign for. Oh, and you just
25:05
Speaker 2: miss it. You've been planning around it. They come in
25:07
Speaker 2: that exact ten minutes that you rushed off to go,
25:11
Speaker 2: you know, grab some milk at the store or something
25:13
Speaker 2: like that. Happens every time. Happens every time, Yeah, it
25:16
Speaker 2: happens every time.
25:17
Speaker 1: You know, you'll do your best to get your tracking number,
25:20
Speaker 1: You're maybe arranging to stay at home for that day,
25:25
Speaker 1: and then you get these cryptic messages like out for delivery.
25:30
Speaker 1: Will it be today and will it be six pm?
25:34
Speaker 1: You'll have to wait and see. Get a sleeping bag
25:37
Speaker 1: lay out by the door, listen for the bell. Yeah exactly.
25:41
Speaker 1: Or maybe my FedEx guy is like a magic riddle gobblets.
25:45
Speaker 2: You talk like that. That's just pretty spooky. Man.
25:48
Speaker 1: He's got a lot of allure.
25:50
Speaker 2: You know, you got to meet him.
25:52
Speaker 1: He's a good hang. You just never know when he's
25:54
Speaker 1: going to show up.
25:55
Speaker 2: Now, that's fair. Well. In February of sixteen thirty eight,
25:58
Speaker 2: old Willy Lil's was awaiting a ship of fish and
26:02
Speaker 2: very specific type of onions ben Portuguese onions, the finest
26:05
Speaker 2: of onions, to be delivered to his home. However, instead
26:10
Speaker 2: of being greeted by a smiling delivery person bearing fish
26:15
Speaker 2: and onions, he was instead greeted by an apologetic warehouse
26:19
Speaker 2: employee who informed him that the warehouse had in fact
26:22
Speaker 2: been burgled. His stresses fish were gone. Yeah, we love
26:27
Speaker 2: a good heist, right for anyone else, it wouldn't have
26:30
Speaker 2: been that big a deal. He would have moved on
26:32
Speaker 2: with his life, you know, knowing that he could probably
26:35
Speaker 2: acquire these fish and onions another time. But no, he
26:39
Speaker 2: would not be swayed with the power of the cosmo,
26:42
Speaker 2: set his beck and call. He did what any astrological
26:46
Speaker 2: master would do. He cast a chart in order to
26:49
Speaker 2: locate his missing items and catch the thief in the act. Well,
26:57
Speaker 2: I guess the act had been done, so he would
26:58
Speaker 2: have the very least catch him at hand.
27:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like you saying, kind of a nonlinear approach.
27:04
Speaker 1: Not just let me figure out what will happen, but
27:06
Speaker 1: what did happen. So now I'm knowing not just the future,
27:11
Speaker 1: but the past and the present. And this is this
27:14
Speaker 1: is fascinating because often we don't think of astrology, at
27:19
Speaker 1: least us filthy casuals. We don't think of astrology in
27:22
Speaker 1: this manner.
27:24
Speaker 2: Well, it does remind me though of you know, some
27:26
Speaker 2: programs that the CIA has done astral projection and things
27:30
Speaker 2: like that Psychic Stargate and all of that. A shout
27:34
Speaker 2: out to Russell targ and the training psychic Spies. What
27:38
Speaker 2: was it called Third Eye Spies I believe was the
27:40
Speaker 2: name of that man's book. Fascinating dude, excellent synthesis of
27:44
Speaker 2: the mystical and the scientific. But this really does have
27:47
Speaker 2: the feel of that, like using sort of mystical pursuits
27:51
Speaker 2: to solve a crime.
27:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which is exciting stuff. And we'll see how
27:56
Speaker 1: this becomes increasingly cinematic if we go to sources like
28:00
Speaker 1: four Faces number four Faces dot Com. Will see that
28:05
Speaker 1: this type of astrology that William Lily is practicing tells
28:11
Speaker 1: us that to find the fish and onion thief, you
28:14
Speaker 1: have to find what we call the right significator. A
28:18
Speaker 1: significator is the planet that represents the guilty party. And
28:24
Speaker 1: this is like when we talk about dignity in this discipline,
28:29
Speaker 1: we're not using dignity the same way you would and
28:32
Speaker 1: commonplace parlance. We're talking about the nature characteristics of these planets.
28:38
Speaker 1: So this guy is saying, how do I He's essentially saying,
28:44
Speaker 1: how do I profile this thief whom I don't know.
28:47
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about this person other than that
28:51
Speaker 1: they were in a warehouse that they robbed at some point.
28:55
Speaker 2: And may smell of onions and fish.
28:58
Speaker 1: They probably have, yeah, some aromatic indicators. So what he
29:04
Speaker 1: finds in his reading it is investigation, is the planet
29:10
Speaker 1: Jupiter without strength sits in what we call an angular
29:15
Speaker 1: position in scorpio, which is a water sign. Meanwhile, concurrently,
29:21
Speaker 1: the moon which you know the moon from earlier. It
29:25
Speaker 1: is in the ascendant in its own dignity, which to
29:31
Speaker 1: him suggests that this is a worthwhile investigation, that the
29:36
Speaker 1: thief will be discovered. Now, for a lot of us
29:39
Speaker 1: non astrology experts, this does sound like a lot of
29:46
Speaker 1: very specific nomenclature. So how do we break this down?
29:52
Speaker 1: Noll for we the average, Yes, the average, the unwashed,
29:57
Speaker 1: the unlearned. This isn't the moon really kind of insane
30:00
Speaker 1: upon itself a little bit, ben It's always there, you know,
30:04
Speaker 1: they're shining brightly. I like it's early work.
30:07
Speaker 2: I do too, I do too, And I like the
30:09
Speaker 2: way it changes, you know, it's it's fun, it's changeable.
30:12
Speaker 1: It's way better than the sun.
30:14
Speaker 2: I don't got don't even get me started about the sun.
30:16
Speaker 2: Talk about.
30:19
Speaker 1: Yeah.
30:19
Speaker 2: So, Jupiter naturally rules the wealthy and noble classes, and
30:24
Speaker 2: Lily wasn't naive. A fella burgling warehouses to steal fish
30:28
Speaker 2: was unlikely a member of the upper crust. So he
30:32
Speaker 2: took a deeper look at what Jupiter's position may have
30:35
Speaker 2: actually been hinting at. And here's where Lily's genius, at
30:39
Speaker 2: least interpreting interpreting this stuff comes in, and I don't
30:44
Speaker 2: think we make any secrets. Ben, You and I are
30:45
Speaker 2: a little skeptical about this type of thing, so just
30:48
Speaker 2: come right out and say it. But I do think
30:50
Speaker 2: both of us find these sorts of patterns and the
30:53
Speaker 2: intuition involved in sussing out those kinds of patterns fascinating.
30:58
Speaker 2: And I think sometimes being accurate quote unquote says more
31:03
Speaker 2: about the interpreter than it does about the methods.
31:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very well put, Noel, and I think I
31:10
Speaker 1: would agree with that. Of course, where'd I hear to
31:13
Speaker 1: yuck anybody's yo? But Lily, through his you could anthropologists
31:20
Speaker 1: might even call it a cultural framework. Right through his
31:24
Speaker 1: framework and his perspective, he encounters what he interprets as
31:30
Speaker 1: an unmistakable pattern. He says, okay, Jupiter might be the
31:35
Speaker 1: significator of our thief. It is in scorpio again, that's
31:39
Speaker 1: a water sign. And he says, I'm looking at something
31:43
Speaker 1: I call the part of fortune, and the part of
31:46
Speaker 1: fortune is occurring at seventeen degrees of cancer. And he says, oh, well, cancer,
31:53
Speaker 1: like scorpio, is another water sign. So in this chart
31:56
Speaker 1: I'm making, this means that the part of fortune is
32:01
Speaker 1: representing my missing fish and Portuguese onions. You know, that's
32:06
Speaker 1: my treasure. And he goes well, also in my chart,
32:11
Speaker 1: in my divination, here I see Mercury, the ruler of
32:15
Speaker 1: the second house, and he says, the ruler of the
32:19
Speaker 1: second this means my possessions, and that Mercury is in
32:24
Speaker 1: Pisces at this point, and boom, boom boom, I've got
32:28
Speaker 1: three water sign So everything I'm seeing in this pattern
32:40
Speaker 1: leads me to think of water and these goods, these
32:44
Speaker 1: fish and these fancy Portuguese onions. They're transported to me
32:49
Speaker 1: by river.
32:51
Speaker 2: So the thief has to be.
32:52
Speaker 1: Connected somehow to the water, right some probably not a
32:59
Speaker 1: rich dude.
33:00
Speaker 2: Again, I'm leaning on intuition here and also kind of
33:03
Speaker 2: somewhat obvious factors, right, like the water is how these
33:08
Speaker 2: goods would have been transported. I don't know that having
33:10
Speaker 2: the water signs necessarily is the one thing alone that
33:15
Speaker 2: made him make that connection.
33:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is interesting because he also says, Okay, he's
33:23
Speaker 1: a believer, right, He's a believing He's not a grifter.
33:27
Speaker 1: He genuinely, he genuinely is a practitioner this discipline. So
33:32
Speaker 1: everything that he again is the national expert is finding
33:36
Speaker 1: is telling him, whomever this thief is, they are not wealthy,
33:43
Speaker 1: They're somehow connected to the river. They probably have a job,
33:47
Speaker 1: so therefore they probably work around the river. And the fish,
33:53
Speaker 1: he reasons, must be stored somewhere associated with water.
33:59
Speaker 2: And then I'm sorry, the actual quote from the piece
34:02
Speaker 2: of the fish he reasoned must be in some place moist.
34:08
Speaker 2: You think, Yeah, they definitely start. I know, I'm coming
34:12
Speaker 2: down on this guy a little bit. But again, I
34:14
Speaker 2: keep HARKing back to the fact that dude is a
34:17
Speaker 2: believer in this methodology, and he also does appear to
34:21
Speaker 2: just kind of be a pretty good little detective.
34:24
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we always talk about that too. You know,
34:28
Speaker 1: it's so easy for it's easy, and it's incorrect for
34:33
Speaker 1: people in the modern day to dismiss the intelligence of
34:37
Speaker 1: people from the past just because they're explaining something through
34:42
Speaker 1: a different framework does not invalidate their intelligence or their
34:46
Speaker 1: deductive abilities. And this is where it gets even more
34:50
Speaker 1: interesting because in this reading where you know, I agree
34:56
Speaker 1: with you here, Noel, in this reading, the wave characterized
35:00
Speaker 1: it so far, it sounds like he's just saying basic stuff,
35:04
Speaker 1: you know, fish and water. But he gets he gets
35:08
Speaker 1: more specific, he gets into what Corporate America would call
35:12
Speaker 1: it granular details. He's reading. His reading, based on his interpretation,
35:17
Speaker 1: tells him more about the thief in question. He says, Okay,
35:22
Speaker 1: this is probably a bigger guy, a robust figure. He
35:27
Speaker 1: probably has fair skin. He probably has skin reddish blonde
35:31
Speaker 1: of ham Yes, And he says, bigger dude because of Jupiter.
35:38
Speaker 1: And he says fair skin and reddish blonde hair because
35:42
Speaker 1: of a combination of Jupiter and Mars. And then he
35:46
Speaker 1: says he probably whomever this thief may be has recently
35:52
Speaker 1: moved house.
35:54
Speaker 2: That's pretty cool, man. I don't know it's it's definitely
35:58
Speaker 2: it's some jinkies type stuff. So the downside here is
36:01
Speaker 2: the chart indicated sadly that Lily would indeed find his goods,
36:05
Speaker 2: but they would not be in an appropriate condition for
36:08
Speaker 2: him to enjoy them. So whether he decided that a
36:10
Speaker 2: little was better than none, or simply thought that it
36:14
Speaker 2: would be just a good exercise, you know, a good
36:16
Speaker 2: proof of concept, We're not one hundred percent sure what
36:19
Speaker 2: his intentions there were, but done the last the hunt,
36:22
Speaker 2: the game was a foot fish fish.
36:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, the game was a fish. And also shout out
36:31
Speaker 1: to William Lily for being such a fancy boy. We
36:35
Speaker 1: know there were regular onions. Dude, you didn't have to
36:38
Speaker 1: get Portuguese.
36:40
Speaker 2: No, no, you know, if he's gonna have funky breath,
36:42
Speaker 2: it's gonna be in style. Right, do you speak Portuguese?
36:48
Speaker 1: No, but after lunch, I'll breathe it. So on the
36:52
Speaker 1: broad strokes are mapped out in this chart. Lily goes
36:56
Speaker 1: to the streets like a like a good old fashioned
36:59
Speaker 1: gulb shoe detective, even though gum shoe wasn't a term
37:03
Speaker 1: for centuries.
37:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, exactly, he's putting shoe to pavement. He is
37:07
Speaker 2: out there, you know, rattling cages.
37:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he is. Uh, he's got his boots
37:14
Speaker 1: on the ground, as as we would later say, So.
37:17
Speaker 2: What would they have been? What would he have been
37:18
Speaker 2: likely wearing? What sort of footwear? Some sort of boot?
37:21
Speaker 2: I imagine a sandal? Yeah, what do they hows those
37:27
Speaker 2: long pointy pointless shoes. Yeah, yeah, all right, I'm trying
37:33
Speaker 2: to I'm just trying to set the scene here. I
37:35
Speaker 2: got to know what kind of footwear we're talking.
37:37
Speaker 1: Exactly, and he uh so he does whatevery smart investigative
37:42
Speaker 1: journalist or detective would do. He says, I gotta go
37:47
Speaker 1: meet the people, you know what I mean, kiss the
37:50
Speaker 1: hands and shake the babies and so on. So he
37:53
Speaker 1: starts asking around, and he goes down to the river right,
37:57
Speaker 1: goes down to where people are working in the markets
38:00
Speaker 1: and what have you, and he starts asking for He's going, hey,
38:04
Speaker 1: it's me William Lily. And they're like, what the famous
38:07
Speaker 1: astrologer William Lily. And he goes the very same look
38:11
Speaker 1: upon my sand bills. Tell me, do you know anybody
38:16
Speaker 1: in the area that you would describe as burly, redheaded,
38:19
Speaker 1: good at fishing, who recently moved? And sure enough, eventually
38:25
Speaker 1: several people tell him that there was a matching suspect,
38:30
Speaker 1: somebody who fit the description, who had just moved into
38:33
Speaker 1: the area and had a reputation for sticky fingers.
38:38
Speaker 2: Oh no, he was in No, he was. He was
38:41
Speaker 2: a usual suspect. He was gosh, okay, I'm not gonna
38:45
Speaker 2: poopoo any further, Lily approached the local magistrate in order
38:49
Speaker 2: to attain a search warrant. I didn't know an individual
38:52
Speaker 2: could just get a search warrants. That's pretty The rules
38:56
Speaker 2: are a little different back then, it was granted without hesitation,
38:58
Speaker 2: of course, to your point, band thanks to his profile
39:00
Speaker 2: and social cachet. Along with they provided him a bailiff
39:07
Speaker 2: in order to you know, protect him and potentially strong
39:10
Speaker 2: arm the suspect, who was apparently quite robust.
39:14
Speaker 1: Ah, yes, yes, chunky boy. So from Willie's perspective, his
39:22
Speaker 1: chart was one hundred percent accurate. His reading held true.
39:27
Speaker 1: They go and find this alleged thief, and in the
39:32
Speaker 1: thief's possession they find the fish, and they ask the
39:36
Speaker 1: thief about this, and the guy says, okay, all right,
39:41
Speaker 1: you got me, you got me. I'm handsome, I'm robust,
39:44
Speaker 1: I'm reddish, blonde, I stole the fish.
39:46
Speaker 2: Where handsome come from?
39:49
Speaker 1: Well, he's you know, always be closing right, fair, fair face.
39:53
Speaker 1: I like picturing that too, Like he's not pitching himself
39:57
Speaker 1: as he's getting arrested, ravishing. Yes, he the thief unnamed
40:05
Speaker 1: says that I ate most of the fish already. Look,
40:12
Speaker 1: I've got my family here with me. This is my wife,
40:16
Speaker 1: and the wife is probably like, he's not that ravish,
40:20
Speaker 1: and so Lily says, what happened to my Portuguese onions?
40:26
Speaker 1: And the spouse says, well, we made a soup out
40:29
Speaker 1: of them. But you know what, we'll let you keep
40:34
Speaker 1: because you are such a good astrologer, because you were
40:37
Speaker 1: such a talented detective. Please don't arrest us. We'll give
40:41
Speaker 1: you the rest of the fish.
40:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, or the rest of everything. I guess there
40:45
Speaker 2: was a little bit remaining of the onions too, potentially,
40:48
Speaker 2: And I love the idea that, like, she just didn't
40:51
Speaker 2: know that these were not the kind of onions you
40:53
Speaker 2: would just boil into a soup, you know, No, these
40:56
Speaker 2: are meant to be consumed in other ways. I'm sure why.
41:01
Speaker 2: I mean, it was such a red flag. That's a
41:03
Speaker 2: faux pot to use Portuguese onions. How about you could
41:05
Speaker 2: make a dope French onion or Portuguese onion soup. Yeah,
41:09
Speaker 2: like I bet.
41:10
Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, you know, we have to exercise empathy. Stealing
41:17
Speaker 1: is wrong, But I feel kind of bad for the
41:21
Speaker 1: thief to your point about his spouse not knowing where
41:25
Speaker 1: he got the onions and the fish. It's kind of
41:28
Speaker 1: like when kids get in trouble. This happens often in
41:31
Speaker 1: the United States.
41:32
Speaker 2: Still, when.
41:35
Speaker 1: Underage kids get in trouble or high school kids, you
41:38
Speaker 1: know they're they're not old enough to I guess drink
41:41
Speaker 1: or you know, they get caught trespassing, raising cane and
41:44
Speaker 1: so on. Local law enforcement will often say, look, man,
41:49
Speaker 1: we can book you, or we can call your parents,
41:53
Speaker 1: and not to not to tell tales out of school.
41:58
Speaker 1: This sounds like a situation where Lily and the bailiff
42:01
Speaker 1: were like, hey, man, your wife is gonna punish you
42:05
Speaker 1: way more than we ever could. So it seems sleeping
42:10
Speaker 1: on the couch, who knows how long think you in
42:16
Speaker 1: the doghouse, indeed in the fish house, in the Onion mansion.
42:21
Speaker 1: This case proved too astrology believers to be a lasting
42:26
Speaker 1: example on how to correctly read horrory charts, and if
42:31
Speaker 1: you are an astrology student you will probably learn about
42:36
Speaker 1: this case in your studies. Thanks so much for tuning in, folks,
42:41
Speaker 1: Big big thanks to our super producer, mister Max Williams,
42:44
Speaker 1: Big big thanks to our brand new research associate Ames Doyle.
42:49
Speaker 1: Look for more of their work on the way in
42:52
Speaker 1: the future, and as my pal Noll said, maybe Ames
42:56
Speaker 1: will grace us with their appearance.
42:58
Speaker 2: On air Away. Huge thanks to Ames for me as well,
43:03
Speaker 2: Huge thanks to Jonathan strickland Ish. These are sort of
43:07
Speaker 2: a fish and onion in human form. That's too harsh.
43:10
Speaker 2: He's a good for nothing, too harsh. He's a roth Jonathan,
43:13
Speaker 2: He's a bit of a He's a scamp. He's a
43:15
Speaker 2: bit of a scamp. A j Bahamas Jacobs, the Puzzler
43:18
Speaker 2: and of course that was Jonathan Strickland aka the quiz Turn.
43:21
Speaker 1: And chout out to our rude dudes over a Ridiculous crime.
43:25
Speaker 1: If you dig us, you will love them. You can
43:28
Speaker 1: also hear our pal, one of the creators and co
43:31
Speaker 1: hosts of Ridiculous Crime, Zeron Burnett, showing up on Behind
43:36
Speaker 1: the Bastards not to be missed and the Big Big
43:40
Speaker 1: Things to you, Man. I know that you and I
43:42
Speaker 1: are not are not learned astrologers ourselves, but these stories
43:49
Speaker 1: are always so interesting and as you said, we love
43:53
Speaker 1: a heist.
43:54
Speaker 2: Ah who doesn't. We'll see you next time, folks. For
44:03
Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
44:07
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.