Latest / Voddie Baucham Sermons / Voddie Baucham - The Church For The World Travis Allen, Tom Buck, Don Green, Tom Ascol

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Voddie Baucham - The Church For The World Travis Allen, Tom Buck, Don Green, Tom Ascol · Voddie Baucham Sermons

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: All right, well, good afternoon, everyone. If you could come
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: on in and grab your seats. Hopefully you all had
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: a good lunch and you're ready for the rest of
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: this afternoon. Look who the cat dragged in. Tom, it's
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: good to have you here. Glad you were able to
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: make it. Well, this is a fun time, of course,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: but it's a good time to gain some good wisdom
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: from these men, unscripted. Um, so the, the theme of
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: this panel discussion is the church for the world. And
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: so we want to really kind of zoom in on
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: this issue of ecclesiology, the doctrine of the church and
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: what the place of the church in the world is. Uh,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: but first I want to ask the question, why this
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: conference on ecclesiology and why now, why is it important?
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: Me.
• 0:54
  Speaker 4: Okay. Um, Well, just look what's happened the last two
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: or three years. If there was any doubt prior to 2018, 2019, 2020,
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: then just kind of magnified it beyond any way you
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: could ignore it. We are not thinking very well about
• 1:16
  Speaker 4: ecclesiology and just the way churches responded or didn't respond
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: to various things going on in the world. the way
• 1:26
  Speaker 4: churches responded to the various mandates by civil authorities, various
• 1:32
  Speaker 4: cultural waves and intimidation with ideologies and thinking, oh, then
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: we've got to be loving and just on the basis
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: of their definitions of love and justice. It just showed
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: that the church, we need to think again about the church.
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: This is not an afterthought with God. God designed it.
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: God's given us his word, telling us how we are
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: to live together as a church. And so praise God
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: that in his kindness and providence, he laid this on
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: our hearts about maybe 18 months ago, just before the
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: last conference, about what next? You know, what do we
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: need to do next? And even next year's conference is
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: going to be what is man, the doctrine of the
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: anthropology of the Bible, which, again, is just massively important.
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: So trying to discern the times and days in which
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: we live, what next? Areas of scripture, are we in
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: need of kind of reasserting very clearly? And really, I
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: guess when you ask that question, it's kind of a
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: target-rich environment, isn't it? You know, you could close your
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: eyes and lucky dip and just open the Bible, so
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: we need to talk about that. But this area particularly,
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: the doctrine of the church, just kind of loomed large.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: So when we think about the church and the theme
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: of this panel, the church for the world, maybe it'd
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: be good just to kind of start with some distinctions. Don,
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: you preached from 1 John this morning, and mentioned how
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: the apostle really makes that distinction between the church and
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: the world, and he uses that word world.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: In different ways.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: How is it that we distinguish between the church and
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: the world? Maybe define church, define world, and how we
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: should think about that.
• 3:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think, you know, I mean, it starts at
• 3:07
  Speaker 5: a fundamental level that the church consists of those who
• 3:12
  Speaker 5: have been born again. And we have to know what
• 3:17
  Speaker 5: conversion is before we can talk intelligently about the church.
• 3:22
  Speaker 5: And And so that's, you know, woven into so much
• 3:25
  Speaker 5: of 1 John's letter. You know, one thing, if I
• 3:28
  Speaker 5: could just expand a little bit beyond that. I was
• 3:31
  Speaker 5: thinking about this a lot during the lunch break. I
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: just want to say a word of encouragement to all
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: of you out there. You know, you look at Votie
• 3:39
  Speaker 5: and Tom and Tom Buck, who I just met, and Travis.
• 3:44
  Speaker 5: You know, you have a part to play in the
• 3:47
  Speaker 5: ministry of men like this. to pray for them and
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: to encourage them and to, if you benefit from their ministry,
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: to be active and to look for ways to support
• 3:59
  Speaker 5: them with your resources and even more importantly, with your expressions,
• 4:03
  Speaker 5: with your verbal expressions, contacting them with notes or something
• 4:07
  Speaker 5: like that. Because what these guys do is difficult and
• 4:12
  Speaker 5: it's not fun to be involved on the front lines
• 4:14
  Speaker 5: of the conflict. Vody's book, Fault Lines, I think is
• 4:17
  Speaker 5: the most courageous book that I've read in the past
• 4:20
  Speaker 5: 30 years since John MacArthur's The Gospel According to Jesus.
• 4:25
  Speaker 5: But we need the help of people like you to
• 4:29
  Speaker 5: support us and to pray for us in order to
• 4:31
  Speaker 5: carry out, you know, the leadership role that God has
• 4:34
  Speaker 5: given these men in the church. And so I just,
• 4:37
  Speaker 5: you know, it's just been on my heart to say
• 4:38
  Speaker 5: that over the past couple hours.
• 4:40
  Speaker 6: I said it, and now we can move on.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: So when we think about the church for the world,
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: what do we mean when we say world? What is
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: the world?
• 4:52
  Speaker 7: You studied 1 John, so he's asking you.
• 4:55
  Speaker 6: Oh, you're asking me?
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Anybody.
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: Anybody.
• 4:58
  Speaker 5: Look, I'm not the guy to dominate the discussion here.
• 5:02
  Speaker 5: You know, the world's used in different ways, in different terms.
• 5:05
  Speaker 5: You know, it speaks of the world system that is
• 5:09
  Speaker 5: aligned against God. And then I think, you know, we
• 5:12
  Speaker 5: can just think about it in terms of the world
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: that is outside the church, those that do not belong
• 5:16
  Speaker 5: to the church, that are still under the authority of
• 5:18
  Speaker 5: the devil. and are walking according to the ways of
• 5:21
  Speaker 5: the world, Ephesians chapter 2. And so those that do
• 5:25
  Speaker 5: not belong to Christ, that have not been born again,
• 5:29
  Speaker 5: they constitute the world in contrast with the church as
• 5:33
  Speaker 5: we've been discussing it here this weekend.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: So when we think about then the church for the world,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: what is the place of the church in the world?
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: And then maybe more specifically, what is the place of
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: the Christian in the world?
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: Don, you don't have to answer this one. You're off
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: the hook.
• 5:51
  Speaker 6: I didn't expect to.
• 5:57
  Speaker 7: Conrad Mbewe's message on Ephesians, I think, answers that question
• 6:01
  Speaker 7: as he talks about Ephesians chapter 4, the role of
• 6:06
  Speaker 7: church leadership in equipping the saints for the work of
• 6:09
  Speaker 7: the ministry in order to strengthen this body of Christ.
• 6:13
  Speaker 7: We are a body. We are a body. We are
• 6:15
  Speaker 7: a body. And as that body then... is strengthened and
• 6:19
  Speaker 7: equipped and builds itself up in love, taught by the
• 6:23
  Speaker 7: pastors and the teachers in the church, equipped to do
• 6:26
  Speaker 7: the work of the ministry. They grow up into the
• 6:28
  Speaker 7: full stature of Christ. They are no longer tossed around
• 6:31
  Speaker 7: like by the winds and the waves of the culture
• 6:34
  Speaker 7: and the world. But then they go back into their families.
• 6:38
  Speaker 7: And you see going into Ephesians 5, you see the
• 6:42
  Speaker 7: effect on husbands and wives as their lives are filled
• 6:45
  Speaker 7: with the Word and filled by the Spirit and as they,
• 6:48
  Speaker 7: in their marriage, minister to one another, playing their particular parts,
• 6:51
  Speaker 7: their roles. You see parents with children. Then you see
• 6:56
  Speaker 7: Christians go out into the workplace in Ephesians chapter 6.
• 7:00
  Speaker 7: So all of that is the church advancing and taking
• 7:05
  Speaker 7: territory in the world. When you get to Ephesians 6, 12,
• 7:10
  Speaker 7: the devil didn't like that. And so the devil starts
• 7:12
  Speaker 7: to push back, and that's why Paul follows up all
• 7:15
  Speaker 7: of that advance of the church into the world through the,
• 7:20
  Speaker 7: it's all fueled by the ministry of the church. It's
• 7:22
  Speaker 7: all fueled and coming out of the ministry of the church.
• 7:25
  Speaker 7: You get the pushback from the devil. He comes at
• 7:28
  Speaker 7: the church. He comes at the Christian with fiery darts
• 7:30
  Speaker 7: to take him down. And then there's, we put on
• 7:33
  Speaker 7: the full armor of God. So that's, I think that's
• 7:35
  Speaker 7: the connection. You see that flowing in Ephesians chapter four
• 7:38
  Speaker 7: to six.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: So then, you know, raises the question then, should the
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: church be for the world or is the church just
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: against the world?
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: Well, I think Jesus makes it clear that we should
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: be for the world. We're the salt, right? We're the
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: salt of the earth. We're the light. And being salt
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: and light is about having that preserving impact and influence,
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: but also about having that illuminating impact and influence that
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: And so it's very clear that we have a role
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: to play in both proclaiming the gospel to a lost
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: and dying world so that God in his sovereign will
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: will save some and condemn others, but also in the
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: broader sense having the kind of impact that only we
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: can have because of who we are and whose we are.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: So it's almost as if when you militate against something,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: you ought to militate against it, but always for something.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: And it's almost as if the church is militating against
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: the world for the world. Not for the world alone,
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: but for the sake of the world.
• 9:00
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think to build on what Travis said,
• 9:03
  Speaker 5: it helps me to remember that our battle is not
• 9:07
  Speaker 5: with flesh and blood, but against the spiritual forces of
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: wickedness in the heavenly places. You know, men are captive
• 9:13
  Speaker 5: to the devil. They've been blinded by him. And so
• 9:17
  Speaker 5: while we militate against the philosophies that they espouse, we
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: look with mercy upon the people espousing them because they
• 9:25
  Speaker 5: are lost just like we were, just like I was
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: as a law student at Indiana University. You know, and so,
• 9:32
  Speaker 5: you know, I can't help but talk to an unsafe
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: person and remember that they were just, you know, I
• 9:37
  Speaker 5: was just like they were. Lost track of my verb
• 9:41
  Speaker 5: tenses there. I was once like they are now, and
• 9:46
  Speaker 5: that softens the way that we speak to them. We're
• 9:49
  Speaker 5: not in a debating society just trying to master somebody
• 9:53
  Speaker 5: to prove.
• 9:54
  Speaker 6: That we can. You know, we want to win people
• 9:57
  Speaker 6: to Christ.
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  Speaker 5: We want to win them, not simply oppose them, but
• 10:01
  Speaker 5: we oppose the philosophies while we're trying to win the
• 10:03
  Speaker 5: people to Christ.
• 10:05
  Speaker 7: And just to piggyback on that, Satan and the demonic realm,
• 10:09
  Speaker 7: they are fixed in their rebellion against God. There is
• 10:12
  Speaker 7: no repentance. There is no change for the demonic realm.
• 10:15
  Speaker 7: They are fixed in their rebellion, and they are going
• 10:17
  Speaker 7: to be consummate fixed enemies against God and His people.
• 10:22
  Speaker 7: So there is no change for them. The people who
• 10:25
  Speaker 7: can change, while there's breath, there's hope for the human race.
• 10:29
  Speaker 7: And so we are, in a sense, an extension of
• 10:31
  Speaker 7: Christ's first advent where He came to proclaim, to preach
• 10:35
  Speaker 7: the kingdom of God. That's what we do. We enter
• 10:38
  Speaker 7: into the world. So the church is, in a sense,
• 10:40
  Speaker 7: for the world, just as much as Christ was for
• 10:43
  Speaker 7: the world to preach the gospel to the lost. So
• 10:46
  Speaker 7: I couldn't I couldn't say it better, but I just
• 10:49
  Speaker 7: want to add that we love these people. I think
• 10:53
  Speaker 7: last weekend, in support of what's going on in Canada
• 10:56
  Speaker 7: and all across the country, many of our pulpits were
• 10:58
  Speaker 7: preaching in text. If it wasn't 1 Corinthians 6, 9
• 11:02
  Speaker 7: to 11, it was something akin to that. And the
• 11:05
  Speaker 7: message at the end, in verse 11, after listing a
• 11:08
  Speaker 7: long list of sins, such were some of you. But
• 11:12
  Speaker 7: you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in
• 11:15
  Speaker 7: the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit
• 11:17
  Speaker 7: of our God. So, yeah, as long as we are here,
• 11:21
  Speaker 7: that's our job. That's what we're going after. The church
• 11:23
  Speaker 7: is for the world. And nobody else has that job.
• 11:26
  Speaker 7: I mean, God gave it to the church.
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: We can't expect anybody else to straighten that out or
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: deal with those things. And we have the gospel, which
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: is why we must preach the gospel. It's the only
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: message of hope. Christ is the only Savior this world has.
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: If we don't proclaim Christ, then we can't expect anybody
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: else to, and people will not have opportunity to hear
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: the incredible grace of God in Jesus Christ. And when
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: we see that gospel being abused and undermined and misconstrued,
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: if we love people, then we have got to be
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: willing to stand firm and say, no, if you do
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: that and you sell them a false gospel, well, then
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: all you're doing is sending them to hell with false hope.
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: And so it's out of love for people. and love
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: for the world of people that we would take these
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: stands and try to do what God's called us to
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: do as the church, which is to proclaim and defend
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: the truth of God that's been revealed to us.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Can the church operate in any other way for the
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: world or in favor of the world? Is the proclamation
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: of the gospel the only thing that the church does
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: for the world?
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: Well, I think the most important aspect of an answer
• 12:34
  Speaker 5: to your question is it's the primary thing that we do.
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: It's the only.
• 12:37
  Speaker 5: Thing that— it' s the unique thing that we do is to
• 12:42
  Speaker 5: preach the gospel, to defend it, and all of that.
• 12:44
  Speaker 5: And what Tom just said was just brilliantly stated. And
• 12:48
  Speaker 5: we have to have a heavenly mindset about it. We
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: have to keep eternity in mind.
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: And it doesn't do any.
• 12:54
  Speaker 5: Good to feed the poor if they go to hell.
• 12:58
  Speaker 5: You know, they go to hell on a full stomach,
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: they're still going to hell. And so we need to,
• 13:03
  Speaker 5: we've got to keep that clear in our mind to
• 13:06
  Speaker 5: know what our mission is and to keep in mind
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: the spirit with which our Lord, you know, spoke to
• 13:14
  Speaker 5: the rebellious Jews. He wept over Jerusalem. And, you know,
• 13:18
  Speaker 5: how many times I wanted you to gather you under
• 13:21
  Speaker 5: my wings, and yet you would not have it.
• 13:23
  Speaker 6: And he wept over them.
• 13:24
  Speaker 5: And, you know, if I was more like Christ, I
• 13:27
  Speaker 5: would weep over the people that I preach to.
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: But, you know, I'm Scottish.
• 13:31
  Speaker 6: And so, you know, you kind of restrain your emotions
• 13:34
  Speaker 6: even when you shouldn't.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: When thinking about this distinction then between church and world,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: it's hard to get away then from the distinction between
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: church and state because it's hard to conceive of a
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: world without human governments. And it seems as though over
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: the past several years, Romans 13 has been used as
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: justification to comply with just about any mandate that any
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: government would place upon us.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: And so.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: Can you help us think through Romans 13, the way
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: the church should view government mandates, lawful legislation and enforcement, unlawful.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Enforcement, or is there a third category?
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: Are there things indifferent that the church has to use
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: its judgment on?
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: Let me read a few verses from Romans 13 because
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: we talk about it a lot and sometimes we don't
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: read it and we just need to make sure we
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: get the words in front of us. Let every person
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: be subject to the governing authorities for there is no
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: authority except from God and those that exist have been
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: God has appointed and those who resist will incur judgment.
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: For rulers are not a terror to good conduct but
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: to bad. Would you have no fear of the one
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: who is in authority? Then do what is good and
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: you will receive approval. For he is God's servant for
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: he does not bear the sword in vain. For he
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: God's wrath on the wrongdoer. And that's enough, I think.
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: That's the first four verses. So government's ordained by God.
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: There's no doubt about that. And to rebel against government
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: with any kind of high-handedness, you're rebelling against what God's ordained.
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: That does not mean that everything government says or does
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: is right and ought to be approved. There's a time
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: to rebel. We obviously know that. Acts 5 tells us
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: that with the apostles who said we must obey God
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: rather than man. And okay, they're telling us. So it's clear,
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: I think, for most Christians when the government requires sin,
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: then we are obligated to disobey the government. And I
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: don't think we have a lot of disagreement about that,
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: maybe some on the edges, but most evangelicals would agree
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: with that. Where I think we get confused today is
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: when the government starts requiring things that are not in
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: and of themselves inherently sinful. And they say, well, okay,
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: the government's requiring us to wear yellow shirts on Tuesday.
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: Is there anything sinful about wearing a yellow shirt on Tuesday?
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: Or if the government's requiring you to wear a little
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: beanie hat that has twirly things on it, if the
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: government tells me to do that, I'm going to do that.
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: This evangelical guy said this not too long ago. And
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: it sounds like Romans 13. Okay, well you just comply
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: because they told you to do it. But that's a
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: misunderstanding of what God has ordained government to do. And
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: we wouldn't use that same logic in any other realm.
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: And fundamentally, it's fundamental, ultimate authority comes from God. All
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: human authority is delegated authority. It's delegated by God. All
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: legitimate human authority is delegated by God. So, if we
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: use that same language, well, if the church, if the,
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: if the state tells me to wear a yellow t-shirt
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: on Tuesday, I'm going to do it. Okay. Well, what
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: about if a husband tells his wife to do 30
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: sit-ups on Wednesday? Was that okay? Oh, no, that's patriarchal abuse, right?
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: Or what if the elders tell you that you cannot
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: use mayonnaise? You can only use mustard. Well, is it sinful? No,
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: it's not simple. What's wrong with, we see what's wrong
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: with those things, right? They're out of their lane. They're
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: out of their lane. The government has a lane. And
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: we live in a day of statism where the state
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: is coming across as if it's God. The state gives
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: you your rights. No, the state doesn't give us our rights.
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: God gives us our rights. Up until recently, the United
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: States has recognized those rights and said we will defend
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: those rights. So that's where we need clear thinking. God
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: ordains spheres of government, spheres of authority to be exercised.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: And the state, the magistrate has a sphere, the family
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: has a sphere, the church has a sphere, individuals have
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: a sphere, and you could multiply them into workplaces and
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: ball teams and other things as well. But within those spheres,
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: that authority that has been delegated by God, the ultimate authority,
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: must be exercised in accordance with his purpose for that sphere.
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: If you don't do that, you're going to be in
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: trouble pretty quick.
• 18:07
  Speaker 8: And if I might add, the text is very clear
• 18:09
  Speaker 8: that they're ministers of God, not miniature gods.
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: That's right.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: Amen. Deacons of God.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 18:16
  Speaker 8: And so I think it says there that they're to
• 18:21
  Speaker 8: reward good and to punish evil. Well, who gets to
• 18:24
  Speaker 8: determine what good and evil is? God gets to determine that.
• 18:28
  Speaker 8: And in the same way, why don't I have a
• 18:31
  Speaker 8: right to tell my wife to do 30 sit-ups even
• 18:36
  Speaker 8: though I never do? Because God's Word doesn't give me
• 18:43
  Speaker 8: that authority. I have authority only insofar as it is
• 18:49
  Speaker 8: submitted to the authority of God. Whether it be with
• 18:52
  Speaker 8: my children or my wife or my church or my
• 18:55
  Speaker 8: neighbor or whoever it may be, God's Word defines those.
• 18:58
  Speaker 8: Same thing for the government. The government has a sphere
• 19:02
  Speaker 8: of authority that's extended them from God's Word. This is
• 19:04
  Speaker 8: God's world. It's His rules. He's given us a book.
• 19:09
  Speaker 8: And if we would just be diligent to follow what
• 19:12
  Speaker 8: God has said, we will clear up a lot of
• 19:14
  Speaker 8: the problems that we're dealing with today. And I think
• 19:18
  Speaker 8: that's tantamount to what we're dealing with.
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: There's a passage that I've been sharing with people to
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: help them think through this. Because part of the confusion
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: is that we read Romans 13 in a way that
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: says that anybody... If anybody in a position of authority
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: tells you to do anything, then you're supposed to do it. Well,
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: the same guy who wrote Romans 13 is the guy
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: we find in Acts 16.
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: 16.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: The Philippian jailer has been converted and things have gone crazy.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: Verse 35, but when it was day, the magistrates sent
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: the police saying, let those men go. And the jailer
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: reported these words to Paul saying, the magistrates have sent
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: to let you go. Therefore, come out now and go
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: in peace. So the magistrate sends the police who tells
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: the jailer. So we got three levels of civil authority
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: that say to Paul, go. Now, according to the way
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: some people read Romans 13, the next statement ought to be,
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: so Paul went. But verse 37, but Paul said to them,
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: they have beaten us publicly, uncondemned, men who are Roman
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: citizens and have thrown us into prison. And do they
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: now throw us out secretly? No, let them come themselves
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: and take us out. So he disobeyed three layers of
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: governing authority because they were not acting in accordance with
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: the law of Rome. Folks, our governing authority is not
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: anybody who holds an office or right? Because even the
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: people who hold those offices, they have an obligation to
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: operate in accordance with what governs that office, our Constitution,
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: and that has an obligation to operate in accordance with
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: the law and the lawgiver of the universe, who is God.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: And so I think it's very important for us to
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: realize that.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: We haven't thought through.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: Romans 13 correctly when our response to everything is, oh, well,
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: Romans 13, so just do it. Because the guy who
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: wrote that didn't see it that way.
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: That passage in Acts 16, what was Paul doing? Why
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: was he doing it? Well, he was sending a message, no,
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: you're not operating in the way you're supposed to operate
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: under God. Paul was loving people as well. If they
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: abused him this way, then they'll abuse other people this way.
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: But what do you think those magistrates did the next
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: time they got a Roman citizen that they arrested? I
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: don't think they're going to mistreat them as quickly as
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: they did Paul. And so it is a loving thing
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: to do to help civil authorities remember or educate them
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: if they've never known what their realm is and how
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: they are to operate and exercise the authority delegated to
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: them from God in that realm. It's loving to people
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: for us to do that.
• 22:43
  Speaker 7: I think that brings it right back to where we
• 22:45
  Speaker 7: are in the local church and our role in the
• 22:47
  Speaker 7: ministry in the local church, pastors, shepherds, teachers in the
• 22:51
  Speaker 7: local church. We're teaching Christians to think just like that,
• 22:56
  Speaker 7: to make distinctions between good and evil according to God's word,
• 23:01
  Speaker 7: law and gospel according to God's word, because Paul could
• 23:05
  Speaker 7: have said, you know what, it's okay. I'm not offended
• 23:09
  Speaker 7: by this unjust jailing. I'm not offended by the beating. Personally,
• 23:13
  Speaker 7: I can take this. I've been through a lot. He
• 23:17
  Speaker 7: didn't think just about himself. He thought about beyond himself.
• 23:20
  Speaker 7: He thought about other Romans who would be likewise treated
• 23:23
  Speaker 7: if Rome continues to violate, really, the law of God.
• 23:27
  Speaker 7: So he He held them to account for that. He
• 23:30
  Speaker 7: spoke in protest. He called them to account. They had
• 23:34
  Speaker 7: to humble themselves and come and speak to them. He
• 23:37
  Speaker 7: thought about beyond himself to others, and that's how pastors
• 23:40
  Speaker 7: and teachers in the local church need to teach all
• 23:44
  Speaker 7: of our folks in the church to think just like that,
• 23:47
  Speaker 7: not to think about just their own isolated situation, but
• 23:51
  Speaker 7: to think in terms of the wider good for the
• 23:53
  Speaker 7: public as well.
• 23:55
  Speaker 8: If I might just take a second to look at
• 23:57
  Speaker 8: this Romans 13, because this is, Paul's not even intending
• 24:01
  Speaker 8: here to give a blank check to government. Because if
• 24:04
  Speaker 8: we look at the context, look at Romans 12, just
• 24:07
  Speaker 8: before that, he's dealing specifically with, in verse 17, he says,
• 24:12
  Speaker 8: never pay back evil for evil to anyone, respecting what
• 24:16
  Speaker 8: is good in the sight of all men. So he's
• 24:17
  Speaker 8: talking about how do you deal when someone does evil
• 24:20
  Speaker 8: to you? and I don't think this is about the
• 24:22
  Speaker 8: church at this point. I think it's in society, and
• 24:24
  Speaker 8: this is why he goes to government. So he says
• 24:28
  Speaker 8: that there, and what does he say down in verse 19?
• 24:30
  Speaker 8: That God has written, vengeance is mine, I will repay, right?
• 24:33
  Speaker 8: So he's saying to them, don't repay evil for evil.
• 24:36
  Speaker 8: Don't take vengeance into your own hand. That's not your
• 24:40
  Speaker 8: sphere of authority. That's what he's dealing with. Then he
• 24:44
  Speaker 8: goes to government, because that's the government's sphere of authority.
• 24:47
  Speaker 8: Let me prove it from the text. Look down at
• 24:49
  Speaker 8: verse 5. in verse 4, down in chapter 13. For it, government,
• 24:57
  Speaker 8: is a minister of God to you for good, but
• 24:59
  Speaker 8: if you do what is evil, that's picked up from
• 25:01
  Speaker 8: chapter 12. If someone does what's evil, be afraid, for
• 25:05
  Speaker 8: it does not bear the sword in vain, for it
• 25:07
  Speaker 8: is a minister of God and what? An avenger. The
• 25:11
  Speaker 8: same word that's used up in chapter 12 for vengeance.
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: Vengeance.
• 25:14
  Speaker 8: If you want to deal with when someone does evil
• 25:16
  Speaker 8: to you in this world that's truly evil, that's not
• 25:19
  Speaker 8: your sphere of authority to go and take it upon
• 25:21
  Speaker 8: yourself to do vigilante justice. That's God's realm to do vengeance.
• 25:26
  Speaker 8: And he has appointed a minister to deal with that
• 25:29
  Speaker 8: in this world. And that's the government. That's what Romans
• 25:31
  Speaker 8: 13 is about. It is not a blank check that
• 25:34
  Speaker 8: the government, whatever it says, can do whatever it says.
• 25:37
  Speaker 8: They're miniature gods. They're ministers of God with a purpose.
• 25:40
  Speaker 8: And if we would see the context, I think it
• 25:42
  Speaker 8: would help us much better.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's helpful.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: That's really clarifying the government as a deacon, a servant
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: of God, God's law coming down from us and the governments,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: they need to legislate in accordance with God's law. But
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: it does raise then some other questions is that a
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: servant goes to his master for directions and to know
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: what he's supposed to do. Well, then how does the
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: deacon of the government, how's the servant of the government
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: go to God and find out what they're to do?
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: What How do they go to God and find out
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: what the law of God is that they're supposed to
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: legislate according to?
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: They get it from the church because we're the pillar
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: and the ground of the truth. This is why the
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: church cannot abandon the public sphere because we're the stewards
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: of those truths. And so we preach to all men, right?
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: And It's our duty, it's our obligation to instruct people
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: in all spheres as to what it means and what
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: it looks like for them to obey the Word of God.
• 26:57
  Speaker 5: Can I pivot a little bit back to what all
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: of you men said so well? Because I think there's
• 27:03
  Speaker 5: a question that hasn't been answered yet in it. And
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: you know, my legal mind kind of goes to where,
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: you know, where the authority is to make the decision.
• 27:14
  Speaker 6: How would you respond, Vody or Tom?
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: Tom?
• 27:18
  Speaker 5: How would you respond to the question, who gets to
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: make the decision about whether the government has overstepped its authority?
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: Does each individual Christian get to make that for themselves?
• 27:31
  Speaker 5: Do they do it under the authority of their elders
• 27:33
  Speaker 5: and in response to leadership? And how does this keep
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: us from going to a situation in the book of
• 27:43
  Speaker 5: Judges where every man is just doing whatever seems right
• 27:46
  Speaker 5: in his own eyes? If you guys could address that,
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: I think that might advance the discussion even more.
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: Well, again, it comes down to the sphere. So if
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: the government were to say all husbands must require their
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: wives to do 30 sit-ups on Wednesday. And so the
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: government makes a law about that. I'm going to say
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: you're out of your lane, and I'm not going to
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: do that, especially in this nation. This is another layer
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: we need to bring out. We are a constitutional republic.
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: The highest law of this land, human authority, is not
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: a person. It's a document. It's a document. It's a constitution,
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: and by God's grace, we've got a wonderful constitution. Not perfect,
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: but it's wonderful. And so that constitution recognizes these things
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: because it was framed in a time when this type
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: of thinking was more common than it is now. So
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: we have that. If I were going to go to
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: a country that had a law on the books that
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: says every Wednesday husbands have to make wives do 30
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: sit-ups a day on Wednesdays, If I were going to
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: go there to make the gospel known, my wife and
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: I would say, okay, we've got to do this. So Wednesdays,
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: you're going to be doing 30 sit-ups because that's what
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: the government says. And we're going to do that so
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: that we can preach the gospel to this government and
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: tell them this is a stupid law. But that's a
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: long-term agenda because they need the gospel. They need the witness.
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: So there's a difference there. But I'm making that decision myself.
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: I'm voluntarily choosing to do it. It's the difference between
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: Paul voluntarily circumcising Timothy and refusing to circumcise Titus. Same
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: issue on the surface, significantly different issues when you look
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: at what's going on and the pressure and the reasons
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: behind those two decisions. So with that, as a husband,
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: father in the home, I'm responsible for that. Elders in
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: a church, that's where, you know, our elders, like I
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: think most elders back in 2020, we were confused whenever
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: we heard pandemic, millions of people dead, body bags being ordered.
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: you know, you got to shut down. Okay. You know,
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: I mean, this is something unprecedented. We don't know. So
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: we pulled back. We think the state has authority in
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: emergency situations to, I mean, if there was a fire
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: running rampant through our community and the state put out,
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: or the city said, you can't go there, the streets closed.
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: We wouldn't say, oh no, no, we're the church. You're
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: not going to keep us from going there. I mean,
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: we would say that's, that makes common sense. And we
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: agree with that and we're going to do it. But
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: after a while, you know, the 15 days to lower
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: the curve became 15 months to do what we say.
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: And After a while, we realized, wait a minute, no,
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: no here. We've assessed this. We disagree. We're going to meet.
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: And I think that's how we do it. We have
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: different spheres of authority given to us by God. And
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: whenever one begins to infringe upon the other, and there's
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: overlap because I'm a citizen, I'm a husband, I'm a
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: church member. And so they overlap. But whenever one starts
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: trying to dictate to the other in activity or specifics,
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: that are given by God to that sphere, the right
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: authority in that sphere has to make the judgment, I think.
• 31:02
  Speaker 8: I kind of looked at it at the beginning this way.
• 31:05
  Speaker 8: I don't know what your all's thoughts would be interested
• 31:06
  Speaker 8: in hearing it, but I said from the beginning that
• 31:08
  Speaker 8: it was never a Romans 13 issue, this particular thing
• 31:11
  Speaker 8: about asking about the pandemic, because our government never had
• 31:16
  Speaker 8: the authority at any point under our law to limit
• 31:21
  Speaker 8: our gatherings. So I looked at it all along as
• 31:24
  Speaker 8: a 1 Timothy 2 situation where that, I told our
• 31:28
  Speaker 8: folks that what we're doing is we're looking at the authority,
• 31:31
  Speaker 8: trying to do the best we can to lead a
• 31:33
  Speaker 8: tranquil and quiet life. And so when we can, sometimes
• 31:36
  Speaker 8: we may acquiesce to certain things that we may not
• 31:40
  Speaker 8: necessarily agree with or maybe it's because of that. But
• 31:42
  Speaker 8: I don't think we ever surrendered even biblically authority to
• 31:45
  Speaker 8: the government. And that's what you're saying as well. So
• 31:47
  Speaker 8: I think it fits with that 1 Timothy.
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: But let me ask you this. So if there was
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: a fire raging for blocks... around the church building where
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: you're meeting, and you have a 6 o'clock meeting for
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: your church, a sustained meeting, and everybody's expected to be there.
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: They've all covenanted to be there. And the fire department
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: and the police department have blockades up. Would you think
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: you would be legitimate to say, we don't have to
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: obey this, we're going to go?
• 32:10
  Speaker 8: No, because I think that does fit in a different category.
• 32:12
  Speaker 8: Because like with the pandemic, we didn't know. We were
• 32:16
  Speaker 8: trusting and trying to live peaceful and quiet lives, even
• 32:18
  Speaker 8: though there were still some questions about how real this is.
• 32:21
  Speaker 8: But you go back even to Old Testament law where
• 32:25
  Speaker 8: certain things are required for the safety of the people
• 32:27
  Speaker 8: or laws that could be made. So I think that
• 32:29
  Speaker 8: is in the sphere of the government. And so I
• 32:31
  Speaker 8: think that if there were millions that were dying, that
• 32:33
  Speaker 8: would be in the sphere of the government to help
• 32:36
  Speaker 8: in those situations.
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: But those are emergency situations. And when it first happens,
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: you may not have immediate clarity.
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I agree. And there are areas where those things...
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: overlap and it's much clearer. I mean, if you look
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: back here, there are exit signs. That's a building code, right?
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: You know, fire extinguishers and, you know, all these sorts
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: of things. And somebody had to come in here and
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: check these beams. But that's because the church decided to
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: build this building within, you know that had rules about
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: what you do when you build a building. So this
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: building would be an example of that appropriate overlap, if
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: you will. But the state can't come into this building
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: and say, this is what you have to do inside
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: this building, because that's not their sphere.
• 33:44
  Speaker 7: The way that any government will know whether it is.
• 33:51
  Speaker 7: Executing just laws is when it is fixed to God's
• 33:57
  Speaker 7: definitions of good and evil, right and wrong, just and unjust.
• 34:01
  Speaker 7: And that's why in Deuteronomy 17, the instructions for a
• 34:06
  Speaker 7: king is when he is seated on his throne, his
• 34:09
  Speaker 7: royal throne, he's to write a copy of this law,
• 34:12
  Speaker 7: this instruction for himself on a scroll in the presence
• 34:18
  Speaker 7: of the The religious community, you could say religious authority.
• 34:25
  Speaker 7: It is to remain with him and he is to
• 34:27
  Speaker 7: read from it all the days of his life so
• 34:29
  Speaker 7: that he may learn to fear the Lord his God,
• 34:32
  Speaker 7: to observe all the words of this instruction and to
• 34:34
  Speaker 7: do these statutes. Then his heart, how could we use
• 34:38
  Speaker 7: this today, will not be exalted above his countrymen. He
• 34:43
  Speaker 7: will not turn from this command to the right or
• 34:46
  Speaker 7: to the left and he and his sons will continue
• 34:48
  Speaker 7: ruling many years over Israel. Sadly, after David, Solomon, they
• 34:53
  Speaker 7: departed from this. There was nobody writing this law. No king,
• 34:56
  Speaker 7: as he ascended into the throne, writing down the law
• 34:58
  Speaker 7: of God. In fact, they discovered it, brought.
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: It to him.
• 35:03
  Speaker 7: When you get to the New Testament, Herod the Great
• 35:06
  Speaker 7: and the Herods following him, they didn't make copies of
• 35:09
  Speaker 7: the law either. That's why John the Baptist said, it
• 35:12
  Speaker 7: is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife.
• 35:16
  Speaker 7: And if.
• 35:18
  Speaker 7: Herod had responded to that in repentance and humility. He
• 35:22
  Speaker 7: would have said, what law is that? I've heard tell.
• 35:26
  Speaker 7: And so he would go back to, if God had
• 35:28
  Speaker 7: granted him repentance, go back to this law. This law
• 35:32
  Speaker 7: is the highest expression of any human law. And so
• 35:36
  Speaker 7: any human law, any government's law that most approximates the
• 35:41
  Speaker 7: word of God is an understanding of right and wrong,
• 35:45
  Speaker 7: good and bad, just and unjust, evil, wicked, all the rest,
• 35:49
  Speaker 7: any human law, any human government that most approximates this
• 35:53
  Speaker 7: is going to understand that more. And there is a
• 35:55
  Speaker 7: spectrum of evil and righteous, you know, approximating evil and
• 36:00
  Speaker 7: righteousness according to the Word of God. So I think, again,
• 36:04
  Speaker 7: in the church, we're trying to teach Christians to understand this,
• 36:08
  Speaker 7: that they may speak forth what John the Baptist did,
• 36:11
  Speaker 7: speaking to Herod, in hopes that those governments would, and
• 36:15
  Speaker 7: government leaders and officials, their conscience would be provoked, their
• 36:19
  Speaker 7: conscience would be pricked, and they'd return to the law
• 36:21
  Speaker 7: of God.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: I think that's good and helpful.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Can you help us then to distinguish then between what
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: you're saying about calling governments to submit themselves to the
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: law of God, and both you and Tom have gone
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: to the Old Testament then to kind of draw that out.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: What's the difference then between that and more of a
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: theonomic view of what governments should be? Maybe somebody give
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: a definition of theonomy and then distinguish what you gentlemen
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: have been saying from theonomy.
• 36:51
  Speaker 7: Well, as I understand theonomy or Christian reconstruction, it's the
• 36:54
  Speaker 7: idea is we want to move all human governments and
• 36:57
  Speaker 7: the church, it's part of the church's mission, Christian mission,
• 37:00
  Speaker 7: to take this from the Old Testament and try to
• 37:03
  Speaker 7: move all governments back to this law. I don't agree
• 37:08
  Speaker 7: with that. I don't think that that's in the New
• 37:10
  Speaker 7: Testament era, the era of the church, where where you
• 37:13
  Speaker 7: got a Roman 13 situation and you do have Gentile
• 37:17
  Speaker 7: governments that are predominating around the world. You don't have
• 37:19
  Speaker 7: this theocratic kingdom. So we're in a different phase of
• 37:25
  Speaker 7: the redemptive program. And so I don't see that that's
• 37:28
  Speaker 7: the church's mission. The church's mission is Matthew 28, to
• 37:31
  Speaker 7: go make disciples, to evangelize and disciple. And it's through
• 37:35
  Speaker 7: that evangelism and discipleship that we teach people to basically
• 37:40
  Speaker 7: the threefold use of the law, to call them to
• 37:44
  Speaker 7: repentance by holding up the law as a mirror so
• 37:46
  Speaker 7: they can see God's righteousness and their unrighteousness in contrast
• 37:49
  Speaker 7: to that. They hold up the law as a protest
• 37:52
  Speaker 7: against the wickedness of the world, and they also hold
• 37:55
  Speaker 7: up the law to Christians to teach them about the,
• 37:58
  Speaker 7: I think Tom used the word last night, train tracks.
• 38:01
  Speaker 7: Those are the train tracks down which our life rolls
• 38:04
  Speaker 7: most righteously, smoothly, and with great rejoicing. So we're trying
• 38:10
  Speaker 7: to teach Christians to understand law and gospel and to
• 38:14
  Speaker 7: preach that to the world. So I don't think we're
• 38:17
  Speaker 7: trying to, I don't think there's any theonomist up here,
• 38:20
  Speaker 7: so I don't think we're trying to move the, that's
• 38:23
  Speaker 7: not the mission of the church, is to try to
• 38:25
  Speaker 7: Christianize the entire world and bring them all under the
• 38:29
  Speaker 7: Old Testament theonomy of Israel.
• 38:33
  Speaker 5: Go ahead.
• 38:34
  Speaker 7: No, go ahead.
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's an important question because theonomy has become a
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: common point of discussion among Christians who are wanting to
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: think seriously about the overreach of government over the last
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: few years. And there are more and more people saying, oh,
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: I am a theonomist, I am a theonomist. And there's
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: different ways they mean that. There's kind of a de
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: facto theonomy where everybody wants things done on the basis
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: of their sense of what is best, right, good, and true.
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: And so everybody's a theonomist, and you've probably heard somebody
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: say that to you. You know, we're all theonomists. Okay,
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: you know, if you're just talking about that, that's fine.
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: But that didn't get to the heart of the issue.
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: The heart of the issue is, do the civil laws
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: of the Old Testament, are they still in service? Are
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: they obtainable? Should they be actionable today? That's the question. And,
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: you know, we're 1689 people. people the confession of faith
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: that we adopt amen is the second london confession and
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: let me just read to you chapter 19 paragraph 4
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: of the 1689 and this is fascinating because i've had
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: people who tell me they're 1689 confessional christians who say
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: but i'm a theonomist I don't think those two things
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: go together. You know, I think you go back and
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: look at this. So here's what chapter 19 verse or
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: paragraph four says to them, the Israelites. He also gave
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: sundry judicial laws, civil laws, but Israel, they were comprised
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: of image bearers. They were people, but they were a
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: worshiping community as well. And they were a civil community.
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: So God gave them moral laws as people. He gave
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: them ceremonial laws as a worshiping community, and he gave
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: them civil laws as a body politic. And so as
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: a body politic, they served a purpose. That purpose is
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: over now for the agenda that God was working toward.
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: As a worshiping community, they had a purpose. He gave
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: them laws for that. That purpose is over. But they're
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: still people, and we're still people. And so we're true Jews,
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: true Israelites. We're people not living under Old Testament economy.
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: So here's the paragraph. to the Jews or to Israel,
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: he also gave sundry judicial laws which expired together with
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: the state of that people as a nation, not obliging
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: any now by virtue of that institution, their general equity
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: only being of moral use. That last phrase is just dynamite,
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: and that's what we're talking about. You look at the
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: laws for the peripatetic, the fence around the rooftop so
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: that people didn't fall off. It was required. Well, why
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: was that? It's because you love people, and loving people
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: means you don't set things up for that, or the
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: goring of an ox. Your ox goring somebody else's ox.
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: It's got to be repaid. Restitution. Okay, well, there's righteousness
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: in that. False witnesses that try to convince the magistrate
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: to execute someone or to find someone, if they're determined
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: to be false witnesses, then what was going to happen
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: to The person that they're lying about should now be
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: happening to the false witnesses. Well, there's righteousness. There's general
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: equity in that, and we ought to applaud that, and
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: we can learn from that. That doesn't mean we take
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: every statute and every penalty from the Old Testament code
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: given to Israel and say, this is what is righteous today.
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: If America was a righteous nation, we'd be stoning homosexuals. No.
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: I mean, you can't make that case and be a
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: 1689 confessional person. You can look at that and say, okay,
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: here's some general righteous principles embedded in those case laws,
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: embedded in those penalties, and can we extract that and
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: apply it in a state today? Yeah, you can, but
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: you can apply it in different ways. So that's the difference. Yes,
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: here's what we need to say to people that are
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: frustrated with the churches kind of folding their wings and
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: going and hiding in the shadows because the government says
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: do this or don't do that, and Christians who intuitively
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: recognize that's not right. We shouldn't be cowering to that.
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: We shouldn't be doing everything we're told just because the
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: government tells us to do it. And they hear the
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: theonomist saying, yeah, that's right. You need to be a theonomist.
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: And they run over there and they say, oh, wow,
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: this is great, man. You guys got an agenda. You
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: guys got a clear program. And they fall into that.
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: Those of us who understand the confession, we ought to
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: be saying, no, no, no, no. Look, that's wrong. This
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: ain't right either. You know, it's got some headaches in it.
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: But look at what God has given us and what
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: our forefathers understood very clearly in There's general equity in
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: those civil laws. Let's go mine them, mine that equity,
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: and see how we can apply it today.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: Bodie, last night you preached from Matthew 16, and you
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: got into verse 18 there in chapter 16, but then
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: you didn't necessarily address the gates of hell that will
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: not prevail against the church. I was hoping maybe we
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: could discuss that a little bit, especially because that's where
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: we see ecclesiology and eschatology kind of come together. That's
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: where we see the church both militant and triumphant. And
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: so maybe you could unpack that verse a little bit
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: for us.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: Tomorrow, man.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, never mind. Never mind.
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: Get Revelation 21 tomorrow.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: All right, all right.
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: No preview?
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's interesting that that is that. allusion to
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: our triumph, right? That the gates of hell will not prevail.
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: He says, on this rock, I'll build my church, right?
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: He's talking about his church writ large, not any individual congregation, right?
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: And the gates of hell will not prevail against his church.
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: Individual churches will come and go. Churches have lifespans. Churches
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: are born and they grow and they thrive and churches die, right?
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: But the church writ large, the gates of hell will
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: not prevail against the church. There are countries where the
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: gospel just flourished, where today you can't find the gospel.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: That doesn't mean that the gates of hell have prevailed.
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: Why?
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: Because his kingdom is a kingdom without borders, without limit.
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: It is boundless and it's undefeated. So that's what's being
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: referred to there with the gates of hell not prevailing.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: That's helpful.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: So how do we address the culture, address this world
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: as the church without falling prey to like a conservative
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: pragmatism or allowing the culture then to direct the message
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: of our pulpits, of our congregations, of our churches?
• 45:26
  Speaker 7: I think one safeguard against that is a, a regular
• 45:30
  Speaker 7: expository ministry of the Word. Because you've got to deal
• 45:34
  Speaker 7: with the text in the order that the Spirit laid
• 45:36
  Speaker 7: it down. And so it's not your agenda that's setting
• 45:39
  Speaker 7: the tone for the church. It's God's agenda, the Spirit's agenda,
• 45:42
  Speaker 7: Christ's agenda. He's shepherding the church through that text. That
• 45:47
  Speaker 7: doesn't mean you can't do a one-off topical message. And
• 45:50
  Speaker 7: many of us did that last week in support of
• 45:53
  Speaker 7: John MacArthur's initiative and the James Coates and the Canadian
• 45:56
  Speaker 7: guys' initiative. We rejoice to do those things and support
• 45:59
  Speaker 7: those things, but sometimes the church needs a topical series
• 46:03
  Speaker 7: on something for its health and life, but the predominant
• 46:08
  Speaker 7: faithful ministry of the Word in an expository fashion, following
• 46:11
  Speaker 7: the argument of the text, that's the Holy Spirit, and
• 46:15
  Speaker 7: it's Christ himself shepherding the church through that text.
• 46:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the other thing that I would add, again, just
• 46:23
  Speaker 5: to kind of build on what Travis said, is to
• 46:25
  Speaker 5: understand that you always have to start with Scripture to
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: define your philosophy of ministry and to define your pulpit
• 46:34
  Speaker 5: ministry and what you're going to do as a pastor.
• 46:37
  Speaker 5: And the book of Titus couldn't be more clear that
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: elders are to hold fast the faithful word which is
• 46:44
  Speaker 5: in accordance with the teaching so that he will be
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute
• 46:51
  Speaker 5: those who contradict. We have a positive duty to teach
• 46:56
  Speaker 5: the doctrine, Christian biblical doctrine, to the church that builds
• 47:01
  Speaker 5: them up. And that's going to be separate and apart
• 47:04
  Speaker 5: from the controversies.
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: Of the world.
• 47:06
  Speaker 5: Then when the world's controversies or mandates impact the church,
• 47:12
  Speaker 5: then we refute those as is required. But as Martin
• 47:17
  Speaker 5: Lloyd-Jones says so well in his book on Preaching and Preachers,
• 47:21
  Speaker 5: We cannot build a church, we cannot build a long-term
• 47:26
  Speaker 5: effective ministry simply on polemics, simply on attacking the error
• 47:31
  Speaker 5: of others, either in the church or in the world.
• 47:33
  Speaker 5: We have a positive duty to teach sound doctrine apart
• 47:37
  Speaker 5: from those things, and then when the things raise their head,
• 47:40
  Speaker 5: then we have to refute them. But there must be
• 47:42
  Speaker 5: a balance, and Travis said it well. You know, the
• 47:45
  Speaker 5: cornerstone of that balance is expositional teachings. And if we
• 47:51
  Speaker 5: teach the Bible, then we're going to be on safe ground.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: And that in part highlights the importance of conferences like
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: this because we're not in the context of a local
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: congregation and the pulpit of a local congregation expositing the word,
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: but rather we're taking some time to address specific issues
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: that are helpful for congregations in this particular culture that.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: We live in.
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I addressed this in the pre-conference, but.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: When.
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: we were living here in Houston, the church we planted
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: in Houston. We had a number of people who came
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: to our church. Some of them moved across town. Some
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: of them moved from other states to come be part
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: of our church because, you know, they would, they would
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: hear me at a conference like this, you know, addressing
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: issues and, and they would think, Oh yeah, I want
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: to be at a church, you know, where there's a
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: pastor who's, who's bold and addresses these issues, and then
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: they would come to our church and spend six months
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: in the book of Exodus, and they realized that we
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: were committed to systematic exposition and not just addressing the
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: issue of the day, and then they left. This happened
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: on multiple occasions, right? Yeah, we want a church where
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: the pastor will do, I mean, if you find a
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: church like that, I want to warn you, if you
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: find a church like that where the pastor's always, you know,
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: addressing polemics against the issue of the day, it's going
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: to be filled with polemical people who have unbalanced theology
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: and fight about everything. It's not going to be a
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: healthy church.
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: It's just not.
• 49:36
  Speaker 5: If I could just tell one quick story, there's an
• 49:39
  Speaker 5: 80-year-old woman in our church, and we were going through
• 49:41
  Speaker 5: a time where some people were leaving the church, and
• 49:45
  Speaker 5: she approached me to talk to me. And in those
• 49:47
  Speaker 5: times in ministry where, you know, there's people leaving, you
• 49:50
  Speaker 5: feel a little, you know, you're a little bit on
• 49:53
  Speaker 5: edge when someone else comes up to talk to you.
• 49:56
  Speaker 5: And in some manner or another, she said, I want
• 49:58
  Speaker 5: to talk to you about what, I want to say
• 49:59
  Speaker 5: something to you about what's happening in the church. So
• 50:01
  Speaker 5: I'm kind of braced for another negative conversation. And she
• 50:06
  Speaker 5: said She said, you preach people in and then just
• 50:09
  Speaker 5: preach them out. And, you know, and that's kind of
• 50:12
  Speaker 5: what you were saying, Vody. You know, people come because
• 50:15
  Speaker 5: they have a preconceived idea of what your pulpit ministry
• 50:18
  Speaker 5: is and what they want, and they project that on
• 50:20
  Speaker 5: your pulpit. But if you continue being faithful and preaching
• 50:24
  Speaker 5: verse by verse and appropriate topical messages, those same people
• 50:28
  Speaker 5: are going to say that's not— some of those people are
• 50:31
  Speaker 5: are going to say, that's not what I want, that's
• 50:33
  Speaker 5: not what I signed up for, and I'm out of here,
• 50:35
  Speaker 5: and they're gone six months later. That's not a failure
• 50:37
  Speaker 5: in ministry. That's a success of the Word having its
• 50:40
  Speaker 5: cleansing effect on the people of God.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 50:48
  Speaker 8: One of the problems that we have is just biblical
• 50:50
  Speaker 8: illiteracy in our churches, and the reason there's biblical illiteracy
• 50:53
  Speaker 8: is because we're not teaching people how to study the
• 50:56
  Speaker 8: Word of God. And good, sound preaching week in and
• 50:59
  Speaker 8: week out where we're helping them see in the text,
• 51:02
  Speaker 8: just like a moment ago, look at Romans 12 and
• 51:03
  Speaker 8: 13 to help them see how the context is there.
• 51:07
  Speaker 8: People don't know how to read their Bibles. And so
• 51:09
  Speaker 8: they're susceptible to anybody that comes along to grab a
• 51:12
  Speaker 8: verse and give it to them, and they never know
• 51:14
  Speaker 8: how to look at that in its context, how to
• 51:16
  Speaker 8: understand it. And so when we preach, we're teaching people
• 51:20
  Speaker 8: how to handle their Bibles. And if we're preaching all
• 51:22
  Speaker 8: the time by means of polemics, as you said, and
• 51:26
  Speaker 8: constantly attacking topics. That's how we're teaching people to handle
• 51:29
  Speaker 8: their Bibles, so no wonder we're producing people like that.
• 51:31
  Speaker 8: Teach people to love the Word, and get into the Word,
• 51:34
  Speaker 8: and allow the Word to rule over them. And the
• 51:37
  Speaker 8: best way for us to do that as pastors is
• 51:39
  Speaker 8: to preach in such a way that people see that
• 51:41
  Speaker 8: we are men under authority, not the authority, and we
• 51:44
  Speaker 8: preach the Word in such a way that they can
• 51:46
  Speaker 8: see that our pastor is tethered to the text, he's
• 51:49
  Speaker 8: under the authority of God's Word, so I should be too.
• 51:52
  Speaker 7: Our entire ministry ought to be, that's well said, Our
• 51:55
  Speaker 7: entire ministry ought to be that, and that registers subtly
• 51:59
  Speaker 7: but clear message. We register a protest against a world
• 52:03
  Speaker 7: that demands that we always be caught up on the
• 52:05
  Speaker 7: news of the day, speaking what's relevant, what's new, always innovating,
• 52:11
  Speaker 7: always adapting, always keeping up with the culture. And just
• 52:14
  Speaker 7: by virtue of preaching the text and being in submission
• 52:17
  Speaker 7: under the authority of the text and all of our
• 52:19
  Speaker 7: people seeing that we are submissive to the text, We're
• 52:22
  Speaker 7: conforming ourselves to a pattern of sound words. We want
• 52:25
  Speaker 7: to make sure we're very conscious, intentional about connecting ourselves
• 52:29
  Speaker 7: back to what's old, to what's written.
• 52:32
  Speaker 8: Is there anything more relevant than God's voice?
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: No.
• 52:41
  Speaker 6: I think that was only rhetorical, Travis.
• 52:45
  Speaker 7: I wanted to make sure that he wasn't asking the question.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: Okay, so final question.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: Question for us this afternoon you know the theme of
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: the conference is the church militant and triumphant is there
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: a danger to triumphalism than in the church.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: Tom says yes.
• 53:05
  Speaker 8: Well i'm going to talk about that next time in
• 53:07
  Speaker 8: in the next hour so i'll just hold off for
• 53:09
  Speaker 8: now okay.
• 53:11
  Speaker 6: And i'll defer to tom since i don't know what
• 53:12
  Speaker 6: he's going.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: To say.
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there surely is, you know. I mean, this is
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: a constant danger, right? It's look at us, look what
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: we've done, and we're better than them. And if everybody
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: was like us, how much better things would be. I mean,
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: we just forget. I mean, what do we have that
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: we haven't been given? It's nothing. I mean, it's all
• 53:34
  Speaker 4: by God's grace. And I've talked to some of these
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: guys and others here about the grace of God on
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: display in this conference, even in how it has come
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: together with the difficulties that we've had along the way.
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: I mean, I can't count the number of people that said, man,
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: you know, Don Green's messages have just ministered to my soul. Well,
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: praise God for that. I mean, when James texted me,
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: he said, I got turned away at the border. I'm
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: trying to find a hotel, go sleep for a few hours,
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: we have to drive back. I was heartbroken. We prayed,
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: we planned, we strategized to get him across the border,
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: and it just didn't work. But I wasn't undone by
• 54:08
  Speaker 4: it because God's always good. He's always working. And then
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: Don cleared his schedule to come and be here. That's
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: God's grace. We didn't plan that. So we have zero
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: reason to have a triumphalistic spirit as if we have
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: arrived and we've done it.
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: No.
• 54:32
  Speaker 4: If God's shown us anything, it's by his grace, not
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: by our wits or wisdom or diligence and we need
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: to praise him so we have no reason to look
• 54:40
  Speaker 4: down our nose at anybody we have every reason to
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: live with hope and joy no matter how bad things
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: get or what the challenges are because our god is
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: always working and if we keep that thing straight in
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: our minds then we're we're going to not very quickly
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: fall into that triumphalistic spirit.
• 54:56
  Speaker 5: Yeah and if we're just mindful of the remnants of
• 54:58
  Speaker 5: sin that are still in us and you know we're
• 55:01
  Speaker 5: fighting our own spiritual battles with temptation and discouragement and
• 55:05
  Speaker 5: those kinds of things You know, it's never going to
• 55:08
  Speaker 5: be found in the man.
• 55:09
  Speaker 6: It's always looking up to Christ.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you very much, gentlemen, for your time, for
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: your wisdom. It's been a beneficial time here.