Latest / Future Christian / You Are Not Enough—and That’s Good News | David Zahl

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You Are Not Enough—and That’s Good News | David Zahl · Future Christian

0:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: This is the Future Christian podcast, a
0:07
conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas,
0:10
and the future of the church. Today. Loren
0:18
Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with David Zahl.
0:22
David is the founder and director of Mockingbird
0:25
Ministries, editor in chief of the Mockingbird
0:28
website, and co host of both the Mocking Cast and
0:32
the Brothers Zahl podcasts. Zahl is the author of
0:37
How Career, Parenting, Technology, Food, Politics,
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and Romance Became Our, uh, New Religion and what
0:43
to Do about it and Low the Unlikely Key to A
0:48
Gracious View of Others and Yourself. His latest
0:51
book, the Big the Urgency of Grace for a Worn out
0:55
world, appeared in April 2020 from Brazos Press.
1:00
His writing has been featured in the Washington
1:02
Post, Christianity Today, and the Guardian, among
1:05
other venues. He and his family live in
1:08
Charlottesville, Virginia, where he also serves on
1:11
the staff of Christ Episcopal Church. Even after
1:14
all these years, he's still mourning the end of
1:16
Calvin and Hobbes and hoping that Morrissey and
1:19
Marr will bury the hatchet. His favorite
1:21
theologian is probably across between Johnny Cash,
1:24
Flannery o' Connor, and his brother Simeon. A
1:28
reminder. Before we start today's conversation,
1:31
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
1:34
leave a review and share Future Christian with a
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friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and Future
1:39
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1:41
email@laurensonate mediapro.com with comments,
1:47
questions, or ideas for future episodes. Your
1:50
support and voice mean a lot to us in making this
1:53
independent podcast possible.
2:00
>> Loren: This is Loren Richmond and I'm in person with
2:03
David Zahl at Christchurch Episcopal Church, right
2:08
in Charlottesville, Virginia.
2:09
>> David: That's correct. Here we are. Sun is shining. It's
2:12
good to have you in my office.
2:13
>> Loren: It's good to be here. Uh, I'm here town for the
2:17
Iowa Preachers Project a little bit early and
2:20
>> David: had some time and thought I'd connect
2:22
>> Loren: with David to do a podcast, give a little sense of
2:28
yourself, uh, your background, your faith journey,
2:31
how you got to where you're at today.
2:32
>> David: Sure. Um, well, I'll just start with the
2:36
biographical details. I was born in New York City,
2:39
grew up outside of New York, then also in Europe
2:41
for a little bit. My father is an Episcopal
2:44
clergyman, um, and a theologian. One of three
2:48
boys. One of my oldest, my older brother is a,
2:52
he's also, he's ordained in the Episcopal Church
2:54
as a rector outside of New York City. And my
2:58
younger brother is a, uh, theology professor at
3:01
Cambridge in the uk. So we joke about it being the
3:06
family biz but we're all in some aspect of kind of
3:12
professional Christian work. Um, but it makes for
3:15
fun Dinner table conversations when uh, we get
3:18
together. But, um, I'm married to Kate, who is an
3:22
artist, a painter in here in central Virginia. And
3:26
uh, we have three boys, a 15 year old, a 13 year
3:29
old and a nine year old as of this recording. And
3:33
uh, so very active life on that respect. I work
3:37
quarter time at this Episcopal church where we are
3:39
right now, Christ Church, where I am a licensed,
3:42
uh, lay preacher. And I also oversee the adult
3:45
education and kind of provide sort of, I guess
3:49
like sports wise. I'm like a utility player.
3:52
>> Loren: Yeah.
3:52
>> David: Um, filling in where necessary. And then I full
4:01
time, I run Mockingbird. So Mockingbird is an
4:04
organization that we've started in 2007. So we're
4:07
closing in on our 20th anniversary. And our
4:11
tagline is that we try to connect, uh, the
4:15
Christian message with the realities of everyday
4:17
life in fresh and compelling ways. I mean I think
4:21
that's what everyone is trying to do. Um, but for
4:24
us that basically looks like a platform with
4:26
podcasts and lots and lots of web writing and
4:31
conferences and the print magazine, uh, that
4:36
started out, I would say that the DNA of the
4:41
organization is kind of low church Episcopal. Um,
4:46
but as time's gone on with some real, I guess, uh,
4:51
confessionally Protestant or reformational
4:55
commitments, like the distinction between the law
4:58
and the gospel and the bondage of the will and the
5:01
theology of the cross, these are important
5:03
distinctions for us. But as time's gone on we've
5:05
just really become known as like a ministry that
5:07
talks a lot about grace, uh, and denominationally
5:12
it's just spread far and wide, which has been an
5:14
exciting thing to see. And we've gotten to partner
5:16
with the Iowa Preachers Project. And uh, that
5:20
ecumenicism is I think, part um, of what makes
5:24
that partnership work. So my own faith journey, I
5:28
was. We always brought up going to church because
5:30
my father was not brought up in the Christian
5:33
subculture at all, um, and never went to Christian
5:38
schools or went to, um, even I went to one
5:40
Christian summer camp. That was it. And so, uh,
5:45
really faith was not a hugely important part of my
5:49
life until I was in my mid-20s and had a personal
5:53
crisis related to the end of a relationship that
5:56
brought me into contact with some, um, thoughtful,
6:01
sort of intellectually engaged and very humorous
6:04
Christians. Um, one thing led to another and all
6:07
of a sudden I became a youth minister and worked
6:11
as a parachurch youth minister in New England in
6:13
boarding schools for five years before
6:17
transitioning out of that to start Mockingbird.
6:20
Um, the Episcopal Church was in meltdown mode at
6:23
that point. It was the early 2000s, and I was
6:26
newly married, and my wife did not want to go down
6:30
the route of sort of like, getting involved in
6:33
what looked like just a mammothly acrimonious
6:36
situation. And, um, so we decided to kind of pivot
6:41
the youth ministry I was doing to New York City
6:44
and try to work with young adults in a creative
6:46
way. And I had some friend, ah, With a church
6:49
there who gave us Safe Harbor, a place to, um, uh,
6:55
put out our shingle. And then the Internet did
6:59
what the Internet does, and it kind of expanded
7:01
things. And, um, I think we were kind of a little
7:04
bit at the right place at the right time to get
7:07
some traction in those early days. And so now, uh,
7:13
we moved to Charlottesville 15 years ago, and, um,
7:18
it's been a really smooth transition to being
7:21
here, and a lot of possibilities opened up. And I
7:25
started writing my own books about 10 years ago,
7:29
um, after writing for the web for previous 10. And
7:34
that's taken up more of my time and energy. So I
7:37
basically have three jobs, if you want to think
7:39
about it. I have a. I work. I moonlight at the
7:42
church.
7:42
>> Loren: Yeah.
7:43
>> David: Which I love. It grounds me. And it's. I love
7:45
these people. It's my community. And. And I put a
7:49
lot of time in. Um, and then I run Mockingbird,
7:53
which has, you know, eight or nine employees now.
7:56
And then I also write my own books and speak about
7:59
that. So I'm like everyone else, just us hustling,
8:03
putting it all together.
8:04
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that.
8:06
Any spiritual practices that help you stay
8:08
grounded?
8:10
>> David: I mean, the board, it's the most boring one I
8:12
could possibly say. But going to church, I mean,
8:16
the fact that I simply go every week in, week out.
8:20
Yeah, I have. As I've gotten older, in midlife,
8:24
and as the brutality of midlife has taken hold, I
8:27
have. I've started to journal and to have sort of
8:32
daily, sort of Bible reading. Meditation times,
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like what I've always heard to refer to as quiet
8:40
times, have become, um, maybe not an everyday
8:42
thing, but more regular for me. But the thing that
8:45
keeps me grounded the most is actually just going
8:47
to church at a church that I. That where I'm fed
8:50
and there's, you know, the liturgy's beautiful,
8:54
but also kind of rock solid, and the preaching is
8:58
great and the music is beautiful. So, like, I'm
9:02
spoiled in that regard. Um, and I don't know what
9:06
my prayer life would even be like if I wasn't.
9:08
When I have to preach, I have to preach at four
9:10
services. So you'd end up getting a lot of prayer
9:12
time in those days. Yeah, but again, as I'd say,
9:15
the post Covid life. I've also had to reinvest,
9:19
um, in my own personal piety in a way that
9:22
sometimes when you're a pastor or a Christian
9:25
writer, you start to take some of that stuff for
9:28
granted or phone it in. And that has, um, been a
9:33
liability. So I'd say, like, uh, the other things
9:39
are just like the. The therapy involved in being a
9:43
person has been, um, a very active part of my life
9:48
for the last 20 years. So if you would consider
9:51
that spiritual practice. I don't know, but I've
9:53
had a lot of, a lot of treatment over the years.
9:57
>> Loren: Yeah, I have to name a couple things. One, I have
9:59
to get a shout out to my co host who's obviously
10:02
not here with us, but herself, Anglophone or
10:05
Episcopal in Canada, Martha Tatarnic. So for our
10:08
listeners out there, and Martha, hello. I'm also
10:12
thinking about, like, I think there's something
10:15
really to this. Like, my formative theologian is
10:18
Nandra Root, and I think what makes him such a
10:21
good theologian is his wife's pastoral role. Like
10:25
he's that connected to the church. And I'm
10:27
guessing, like, it's probably the same for you.
10:29
Like what, what keeps you grounded theologically
10:31
is your connection to the local church. That's
10:34
just my hunch.
10:36
>> David: Uh, yes, 100%. I wouldn't. It's, um. You know,
10:42
it's not always fashionable or easy. Uh, the
10:46
church, uh, can uh, be a dumpster fire at certain
10:48
times. I happen to go to what I would consider to
10:51
be a pretty healthy, thriving church. Um, but if I
10:56
didn't have it, think it's the secret sauce of
10:59
what. What allows me to continue doing what I do
11:02
otherwise, the Internet being what it is, it just
11:05
can. It just eats people alive and you can. Or you
11:08
can just spiral off into these abstract, um,
11:12
debates and score, you know, um, dunking and
11:16
things like that that um, are detached from where
11:20
people are actually living. And so that uh.
11:25
There's been times where we've thought about,
11:26
like, maybe what would it look like if I wasn't
11:29
involved in the local church, um, or just to free
11:32
up some extra time. But I don't think spiritually,
11:37
um, it would actually be helpful. I think it would
11:40
hurt the work. So. Yeah, I also think about.
11:45
People have asked me why I don't get ordained and
11:47
like, because at this point, you know, things have
11:50
much more stabilized in my denomination at least.
11:53
And I also think a lot of Doors open for me
11:56
because I'm not ordained, at least in the work I
12:00
do with Mockingbird.
12:01
>> Loren: Yeah, um, yeah, I mean I think there's. I work
12:06
part time as a chaplain and I think there's
12:08
something far more, far less threatening to be
12:12
like I'm a chaplain than a pastor. There's just
12:14
less baggage attached to that. Mhm. So I think
12:18
that's similar. Well, we're here to talk a little
12:21
bit about David's book, the big relief, the
12:24
urgency of grace for a worn out world. And then
12:27
hopefully we'll talk a little bit about, um,
12:29
Mockingbird more broadly too.
12:31
But share if you could just kind of like give a
12:34
general overview the book. What were you hoping to
12:37
accomplish with it?
12:39
>> David: Well, shout out to Andy Root, who did endorse this
12:42
book. Uh, he's a hero of mine too. Um, glad we
12:46
share that in common. The book. So I would
12:50
consider it the third in a trilogy of books I've
12:52
been writing which are not hugely original works.
12:56
I would consider them to be more works of
12:58
translation, um, trying to uh, lay out the
13:06
plausibility and the intelligibility of the
13:08
Christian message for contemporary people and
13:11
slightly just with fresh language and with um,
13:15
fresh reference points. So um, the first book I
13:21
did in this trilogy, Seculocity, is really about,
13:24
is really about justification, justification by
13:26
faith and looking at sort of replacement
13:29
religions. And the second was low anthropology,
13:31
which is a sort of, which was about sin and human
13:34
limitation and the bondage of the will and
13:37
addiction. And that was sort of connecting those
13:40
dots to a Christian understanding of human nature.
13:44
And then the third one is just the primacy of
13:47
grace as God sort of revealed word to us in Jesus.
13:54
Um, but to do that, for me it's always, I've got
13:57
to find some kind of rhetorical or um, linguistic
14:01
even hook. And I was just noticing in my pastoral
14:05
work and in my sort of travels around the country
14:08
that this word relief was something I was hearing
14:10
from everyone. And I wasn't just hearing it from
14:12
sort of the bougie types who were on the
14:15
performances ladder. I was hearing it from, you
14:18
know, retirees and I was hearing it from folks in
14:21
more blue collar settings. And I was rural
14:23
settings as well as, uh, urban ones where I was
14:26
certainly hearing it and I was hearing it from non
14:30
Christians just as much as I was hearing it from
14:31
Christians. And so I thought what is this word
14:33
relief? What is this signaling to folks? And in
14:36
what sense is grace? Which I think lies at the
14:39
very heart of the good news of our faith, like in
14:42
what sense is it relief for people? Um, and of
14:46
course to talk about relief, you have to back up
14:48
to talk about pressure. Um, so my sense is that we
14:55
live under, um, just a crucible of pressure by
15:00
nature of being alive today in some ways that are
15:02
unimaginable to folks, especially if you talk to,
15:05
like, people who raised children 30 years ago
15:08
versus today. It's just a different universe
15:11
defined by accelerated pressure. And so the task
15:16
of the book was to kind of like, with everything
15:18
I'm doing, I'm trying to get like three steps back
15:20
from like a CS Lewis or, you know, I'm really
15:23
trying to begin by describing the world people are
15:26
already living in and then talking about why and
15:30
how the Christian faith might address or apply,
15:34
um, and what's good, why it matters. And so a lot
15:40
of what I'm doing in the book is describing the
15:42
experience of pressure, whether that be the
15:44
pressure of the past as embodied in the kind of
15:51
eternal, um, Internet that never forgets, or the
15:56
accelerated treadmill of. Of, uh, kind of
16:00
extracurriculars or keeping up with the Joneses,
16:03
even, um. Uh, then there's just the default guilt
16:10
that people feel whether they're religious or not,
16:14
whether they believe in God or any kind of sort of
16:16
moral code or not. Young people especially, just
16:20
constantly feel guilty. And the church, some areas
16:24
of the church have an allergy to talking about
16:26
guilt, but it's a lived reality for most folks. So
16:30
talking about that as a pressure, talking about,
16:33
um. Yeah, the pressure to perform, the pressure to
16:36
be productive. These are things that I see, um,
16:39
that are somewhat insidious. They're not all bad,
16:43
but just really. Just trying to figure out how.
16:47
And then there's like, the pressure to never, you
16:49
know, to be your own God or to be perfect and to
16:54
be immortal. Uh, so that's how the book came
16:58
about. I wanted to, you know, partly the work in
17:02
the church is I'm continually meeting people who
17:06
are interested in church almost against their
17:10
better instincts. They're sort of like, I guess
17:12
I'm here. Like, I'm sensing there's something for
17:15
me here. There's an emptiness, or I need something
17:19
more than what I'm getting from the quote, unquote
17:21
world or from Silicon Valley. And, um. But I had
17:27
very few resources to hand someone like that. I
17:30
mean, of course, the best resources to just hang
17:32
out with that person and to talk with them. But
17:35
what books can I give? Like, you know, there's
17:39
mere Christianity and there's like, there's the
17:42
ragamuffin gospel or there's, there's just like a
17:45
few books that can work in that context. Um, but
17:51
they're few and far between. And because our
17:53
culture changes so quickly, you need fresh ones. I
17:57
think Unapologetic by Francis Bufford's probably
18:00
the best one going. But I needed one that was a
18:04
little more, I guess, American, slightly dumber.
18:09
Um, and so I wanted something to be pastorally
18:12
useful to folks. It's like, oh, grace, here you
18:16
go. This is what, what grace is about.
18:20
>> Loren: So I saw this like twice in the airport yesterday,
18:24
and I'm just making sure we're still recording,
18:25
but I saw this twice in the airport and it was
18:28
interesting to me because I knew we were gonna
18:30
have this conversation, but two people wearing
18:33
these sweatshirts and I looked them up. You can
18:35
buy them. You are enough.
18:38
>> David: Right.
18:39
>> Loren: And I just like, I think that I found that so
18:42
interesting because I think what strikes me about
18:45
your, Your book is that you assume grace is
18:47
already needed, but like, we're filled of this
18:52
culture of like, oh, you are enough. And what I,
18:56
at least as I understand your book and your work,
18:59
you're like, that's not landing.
19:01
>> David: Yeah.
19:01
>> Loren: Say more.
19:04
>> David: Well, the word enoughness or enough. I lean on
19:08
that word a lot in the Seculocity book because I
19:11
think it's a good euphemism for righteousness when
19:15
people are looking for a sense of enoughness. And
19:17
so what the culture does, because it's the easiest
19:20
possible thing to do, is to sort of just. We kind
19:23
of just yell at folks. No, you are enough. You
19:27
know, don't you get it? You're enough. You know,
19:29
but people know themselves and they know that
19:33
they're not enough, or at least not in the ways
19:35
that they'd like to be.
19:36
>> Loren: Right?
19:38
>> David: They may. Or at least you need someone else to say
19:42
that to you rather than claim it for yourself. Um,
19:45
and the Christian message is really not. It's not
19:47
a kind of a saying. Don't you get it? You are
19:52
unbelievably. You're better than you realize. No,
19:54
the Christian message says like, you are enough
19:57
because God says you are, because Christ is
20:00
enough. And that's a completely different. That
20:02
has authority, that's outside of you, that has,
20:04
um, you know, historical reality to it. And so I
20:08
think it's got an increased potency. So what those
20:12
sweatshirts I think are identifying is this core
20:15
sense of we think.
20:18
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
20:18
>> David: We believe that we're not enough. And there's ways
20:21
in which that can become. There are. I don't want
20:24
to say that like, there are ways in which people
20:29
internalize a really kind of a self loathing
20:31
image.
20:32
>> Loren: Right, right.
20:33
>> David: And Christians do especially I'm a worm or
20:37
something like that. And I don't think that's not
20:39
what we're talking about. Uh, and I go to great
20:43
odds to distinguish that in the low anthropology
20:46
book. But yeah, just yelling at people or turning
20:52
up the volume as loud as you can and saying, don't
20:54
you get it? You are enough. Uh, who says who and
20:58
why? And all of these questions, they just don't
21:02
land with people. If any of you ever been in a
21:06
relationship with another human being, what's
21:12
powerful is when they love you, when you aren't
21:15
enough. That's the experience of grace. When you
21:19
have failed, uh, when some sort of abiding
21:23
weakness has not gone away. That's when the
21:27
transformative power of God's love, I think really
21:30
takes root. But if you're just shouting at them,
21:33
it becomes another thing to kind of feel bad
21:36
about. I think, uh, what's wrong with me that I
21:40
can't quite get it through my head?
21:42
>> Loren: Right. Yeah. I think of this like, growing up
21:46
Baptist, very conservative Baptist, very much
21:49
trained in soul winning and, you know,
21:52
proselytizing and like 20, 25 years ago, like 30
21:58
years ago, I feel like we, uh, we, I'll say we, as
22:01
my past Baptist, we, like, we needed to do the
22:03
work of like convincing someone they weren't a
22:05
good person. I just feel like deep down so many
22:09
people today are just convinced they are not a
22:12
good person. And like, because it's like you say,
22:15
it's like the social media algorithm are just
22:19
dialed in to say like, keep scrolling. Because you
22:23
know, whether you're, you're, you're missing out,
22:26
um, on this stuff or this experience or this
22:31
skinniness or whatever, just constant like, you're
22:33
not enough. Yeah, and that's what, that's what
22:36
strikes me so much about your book is you're
22:39
saying like, hey, you don't need to be convinced.
22:42
We don't need to convince people like, they not.
22:45
The relief is like, that's okay.
22:48
>> David: Yeah, you're not enough and that's okay. God loves
22:51
you anyway. That's like, there's a man that's
22:53
like, whoo.
22:54
>> Loren: That's what I just want to do. Like, that's good
22:57
news, man.
22:58
>> David: What we're saying is Jesus is enough. God's grace
23:01
is enough. And it's not a, um, yeah, there can be
23:05
like a gleeful kind of trying to like forcibly
23:10
lower a person's self image or something like
23:12
that, which I don't think is ever received well.
23:15
But the, um. Yeah, I don't know what happened
23:20
exactly, but we are so bombarded with comparison
23:25
and not, uh, measuring up and everyone else
23:29
seeming to have a better vacation. And I just came
23:31
from my. For crying out loud. I just came from my
23:34
25th college reunion, Loren. And like, everyone in
23:39
that room thought they were the single person who.
23:42
I mean, I get in there, it's like, oh, well, I'm
23:45
the only one whose life didn't really go the way I
23:47
thought it should go. And everyone else here has
23:49
it together. If you talk to anyone else in that
23:52
room for five minutes, they say the exact same
23:56
thing. So no one in there thinks they're actually
23:58
killing it. Unless they're completely deluded, in
24:00
which case they're heading for a different kind of
24:01
fall.
24:02
>> Loren: Right. Yeah. Well, especially if you can get past
24:06
what I'm sure is the. The elevator speech in a way
24:09
of like, I've got it all together. This is what
24:13
I'm doing with my life.
24:14
>> David: Yeah.
24:15
>> Loren: Once they've either. Once either had a few drinks
24:18
or you can get them off quiet in a corner like
24:20
crap. Like, my marriage is a mess. My kids hate
24:24
me. I'm worried about getting canned for my job.
24:27
>> David: Yeah. It's just like, the only reason we think
24:30
everyone is doing other people are doing so well
24:31
is that we just don't know them very well.
24:33
>> Loren: Yeah.
24:34
>> David: And that's what.
24:34
That's the gift of being in ministry all these
24:36
years. It's like, I'm not just saying this to make
24:39
myself feel better. It's the only, like,
24:42
empirically true thing I think I can say is that
24:44
no one is as shiny as they appear. Like, no one.
24:51
I, um, still don't believe it all the time.
24:53
>> Loren: Yeah.
24:53
>> David: I still go to the 25th reunion, have that same
24:56
sort of knee jerk. Oh, gosh, I'm uniquely screwed
25:00
up and I've made uniquely terrible choices. But,
25:05
um, yeah, I don't think. I think there's a way to
25:11
preach the kind of law in the church to cut
25:14
through some. Self righteousness is never a bad
25:16
thing. Most of the time when I'm preaching, I'm
25:19
trying to identify, help people get in touch with,
25:23
giving them permission to connect with the areas
25:28
of life where they are suffering. The condemnation
25:33
already, where the accusation is real and where I
25:38
don't need to manufacture it, um, in a way that I
25:41
think sometimes, maybe in the self esteem era, you
25:44
needed to. But today, the pessimism and the
25:49
despair is just off the charts. So you can assume
25:53
as much. But you can also rhetorically and
25:57
pastorally marshal whatever resources you have to
26:01
help people identify the places where they already
26:04
know they're falling short. And um, just that
26:08
existential like you know, uh, foothold will be
26:13
the place where the gospel, I think will have more
26:15
attraction.
26:16
>> Loren: Yeah, well, I want to do something I've never
26:18
done, I don't think before on a podcast. I'm going
26:21
to read a quote from an author from their book in
26:25
person with them, um, just for kicks and grins.
26:29
I'm not going to find this quote on your page, but
26:31
it's on page 90. That's my notes.
26:33
But you write about atonement theory in your book,
26:36
um, which I found really interesting because like,
26:41
broadly speaking, like mainline Christianity
26:44
especially has like really soured on atonement,
26:46
uh, theory or specifically substitutionary
26:49
atonement theology over the last 10, 20, 30 years.
26:54
And you write about like the privilege of folks
26:59
who are, I can't remember exactly but like
27:03
privilege and prosperity, like being sort of uh,
27:09
uh, vaccinated against, to use a word, against the
27:14
need for that. In uh, Jason Michelle talks about
27:18
this in, you know, come across his work through
27:22
the Iowa Preacher Project. I think about this my
27:24
own now that I'm working as a chaplaincy. Like,
27:28
like people in crisis, they don't, they're not
27:31
looking for like this sort of like real
27:33
philosophical, like, like they need like good news
27:36
of like I'm um, in crisis. Like I need to know.
27:40
Like this really hits me where I am in the midst
27:43
of it. So yeah, I'm just curious, like why have
27:47
you leaned into like atonement theory more?
27:52
>> David: I think it preaches, I think people. Uh, the
27:56
passage you're referring to is a really
27:59
interesting section where I was quoting a um,
28:02
theologian, Richard Beck, who was a very um, he
28:05
would call himself a sort of a progressive
28:07
Christian and he would, he would always eschew
28:10
kind of substitutionary atonement. And then he
28:12
started teaching a Bible study in a maximum
28:14
security prison. And these sections where uh, the
28:19
times when he would end up talking about Christ
28:22
being your substitute and suffering your penalty
28:25
for you, these guys, their ears perked up and so
28:30
he wondered afterwards, he's saying, is this the
28:33
message that maybe a 13 year old girl at the
28:36
summer camp needs to hear? I don't know. Probably
28:38
not in the same way that might be manipulative.
28:41
However, if you're talking to a criminal who's
28:43
been convicted of crimes and is serving time,
28:48
there's real good news to hearing that the damage,
28:52
God not only takes the damage seriously, but God
28:54
takes the damage on himself in some kind of
28:56
glorious exchange. Um, and so my theory, or at
29:01
least my observation in that chapter, which was
29:04
the hardest chapter to write because I was the
29:05
most nervous about it because I'm living in that
29:08
context where everyone, you um, hear the word
29:10
atonement and they run screaming for the hills.
29:13
And I, um, think we've lost an enormously like uh,
29:18
a neutron bomb of pastoral uh, potential by
29:27
writing that out of the script. When you're
29:29
talking to people who've done real harm to others.
29:33
And so um, you just wonder if they might know
29:37
people in prison might know something we don't.
29:39
Um, and that our aversion is not only kind of an
29:43
aversion to Baptists or you know, um, youth group
29:47
experience we were still processing. But um, it
29:54
could be actually an expression of the very
29:56
privilege that we decry in other places. Because
29:59
um, yeah, I think if the Christian message doesn't
30:02
speak to guilty people, AKA sinners, it doesn't
30:06
really speak much because my experience of folks
30:10
is even if they're victims in some ways they've
30:13
contributed to this cycle of grievance in other
30:16
ways. And um, the gospel has something to say to
30:20
me on my worst day. Um, and so yeah, that was a
30:25
risky, uh, but you know, I've heard from lots of
30:29
folks especially, especially in traditions that
30:32
have sort of ejected some of this atonement stuff.
30:35
They said thank you so much. Um, and if you ever
30:39
just, if you're in the pulpit and you preach,
30:42
there's that you have a substitute, not just a,
30:45
not just an advocate, but like a substitute if
30:48
you've done something, if you've really made a
30:51
mess of your life. That's an extremely hope filled
30:54
thing to hear. If you haven't, it can become a
30:58
shame inducing thing. But anyway, I think we have
31:04
something to learn from folks in prisons. Rather
31:07
than telling them, oh, your response to this is
31:10
somehow wrong, or if you only understood how
31:14
enough you are, you're like, no, I'm the product
31:18
of a terribly broken, not just system, but a
31:21
broken family and a broken uh, you know, world.
31:25
And damage to people create more damage. Hurt
31:30
people, hurt people. So I think atonement is um,
31:36
for folks struggling with real guilt and real, not
31:41
just, not shame, but like real guilt, really real
31:43
wrongdoing. Um, it is an arrow of extremely um,
31:52
uh, urgent and incisive power in the quiver of the
31:57
Christian church.
31:58
>> Loren: Yeah.
32:00
So the other side of that I think is your emphasis
32:02
on partial atonement kind of wearing us out. So,
32:05
like, for me, at least. And I'm curious your
32:07
thoughts on this. Like, I see this in, like, the
32:09
sort of, like, performative nature of, like, I
32:14
gotta be like, we're in, um. You mentioned we're
32:16
in Charlottesville. We're very blue town. Like, in
32:18
the. In the left side of things. It's very much
32:21
like, I gotta be at this protest or I gotta, like,
32:24
change my social media profile to support this
32:26
cause. And I gotta, like, make sure I'm using, um,
32:29
pla. Or not using plastic straws and making sure
32:32
m. I'm paying attention to that, uh, this latest
32:36
cause. And there's. To me, I feel like this sort
32:39
of like I have to earn my own attention.
32:41
Atonement, which to me, like, this is what I'm
32:44
curious to me is just exhausting. And I'm curious,
32:47
like, is that what you're trying to get at? What
32:49
else comes to mind for you?
32:52
>> David: Yeah, that's partial atonement. That's. That's a,
32:54
uh, kind of an understanding of. That's. What's
32:56
the irony here is that if you're in blue state,
33:00
more progressive circles, the reality of guilt,
33:06
it's underlying absolutely everything. And so the
33:10
fact that there's this word that addresses guilt,
33:14
uh, and its atonement, um, and it's so. People are
33:18
so alert. It's like you'd rather luxuriate in a
33:23
swimming pool of your own guilt. Sometimes I
33:25
wonder. And of course, you know, the more you're
33:27
bogged down by guilt, the less helpful you'll
33:28
actually be to anyone else. I'm convinced. So, um,
33:33
yeah, partial atonement is simply that, like, I'm
33:35
constantly trying to atone for the sins of my
33:38
race, the sins of my family, the sins of myself,
33:42
and it's never enough. It's always, um. It can be.
33:48
But this is the same thing as what's happening in
33:51
a Baptist youth group where the kid is like, well,
33:54
I'm right with God right now, but by the next
33:56
week, I have to come in my life again.
33:58
>> Loren: Like, trust me, I was there. There's a.
34:00
>> David: There's. There are conservative versions of it.
34:03
And this constant, oh, I'm going to lose my
34:05
salvation is usually some form of like.
34:07
>> Loren: Or, was I really saved?
34:09
>> David: Yeah, but that's all. There's a night. There's a
34:13
sense in which the. We're saying Christ's
34:16
atonement on our behalf for his satisfaction. The
34:20
satisfaction, remission of sins is only covers,
34:24
like, you know, last week, but not this week or
34:27
it's never complete and total, but like in at
34:31
least the liturgy in the Episcopal Church, in the
34:32
Book of Common Prayer, the emphasis is always on
34:35
the, you know, one total complete sacrifice. You
34:42
know, propitiation is the unfashionable word, but
34:46
it's in the, it's in the liturgy. And I think
34:49
it's. So if you get some. That's another reason
34:52
why I think people have a, um, you know, hold
34:55
their nose at atonement is because they only have
34:57
ever experienced this partial atonement thing. Uh,
35:00
it's like me partnering with God to atone for my
35:03
sins. And that's not really good news because
35:06
there's always something else. Um, and I
35:10
understand wanting to run away in the opposite
35:12
direction from that. But I just, I see it in,
35:15
again, as you mentioned, I see it in, uh, left of
35:19
center circles and I see it in right of center
35:21
circles and of course I see it in center circles,
35:23
such as they are.
35:25
>> Loren: But yeah, I'm thinking about this because we were
35:28
talking about parenthood. I'm way over here. I was
35:31
listening a little bit to one of your recent
35:32
episodes where you all were talking about
35:36
parenthood or the challenges of like daily life.
35:40
And man, that I feel like that is. You're never
35:44
doing it. Like, I constantly think, am I doing
35:46
enough? Um, I'm constantly like reminded of like,
35:52
I shared this with a close friend the other day
35:54
and it was so powerful. Like I'm, I'm constantly
35:57
reminded of my failings, seeing it in my son and
36:00
my daughter. Like, especially my son. Like, he, he
36:05
replicates all my worst behavior.
36:10
>> David: Oh man. Yeah.
36:11
>> Loren: And I'm just like, oh man. Like that, um, tendency
36:18
to want to fix this all myself.
36:22
>> David: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what is the parenting
36:26
industrial complex relies upon us feeling like
36:29
failures as parents at all times in order to sell
36:31
us more products and ideologies and everything. I
36:36
mean the whole, basically the entire, a lot of the
36:39
consumerism that we encounter is premised on
36:43
making us feel terrible about ourselves. And we
36:46
already do. But it, it's not being helped by the
36:49
endless scroll of things of being told if you're,
36:52
if you're a mother, especially if you're a mother,
36:54
but also if you're a father, you're all, uh, just
36:56
non stop being hammered all day long with ways in
36:59
which you're told you're not doing it right or not
37:01
doing enough and there's more you could be doing
37:03
and that basically everything about your child's
37:07
life and outcome is completely in your hands. And
37:11
the problem with that is it's not true. And it
37:14
just creates burnout and, uh, resentment and
37:18
distance.
37:18
>> Loren: I always tell the story because it's so emblematic
37:21
of the ridiculousness of this. Like, my son's 8.
37:24
He plays recreational soccer. And like, he's done
37:28
this since 4. And I haven't had it in and out of
37:32
the program. Right. And my wife's always like, oh,
37:34
maybe we should just get him in another sport.
37:36
Because he's, you know, he. He hates soccer when
37:39
he's in it, but when he's done with soccer, he's
37:41
like, dad, let's do soccer. But my wife would be
37:45
like, well, let's get him in baseball. And I'm
37:47
like, it's too late at 8. Right. Which is
37:51
ridiculous. But also, like, that's kind of the.
37:53
>> David: That's insane. But it's true. Yeah, I can confirm
37:56
that that is the narrative. Yeah. I mean, um.
38:02
Yeah. And if you get into the travel sports thing,
38:06
which I think functions as a. As an ersatz
38:09
religion for folks, uh, yeah, it's, um. You
38:14
definitely have, ah. You have a kind of a, um.
38:22
You're marketing to parents based on all their
38:24
worst fears about their children's outcome. It's
38:26
like, not that the parents aren't enrolling their
38:30
kids in things that will take them away from each
38:32
other, the family and church, because they're sort
38:35
of. They don't see that that's gonna happen. They
38:38
feel powerless not to do it because they think
38:40
that their child's future is at stake. And that's
38:44
a tremendously frightening thing.
38:46
>> Loren: Yeah, it's funny because, uh, I think it functions
38:49
almost like, as a discipleship. Like, this is how.
38:53
This is what's fascinating for me. And we're
38:55
getting off topic here a little bit, but this is
38:57
what's fascinating for me. Having a kid in child
39:01
sports, youth sports is like, I see other parents,
39:03
like, really into this. And like, for me, I'm just
39:07
like, uh, my kids. I just have my kid here to burn
39:09
off energy. Right.
39:11
>> Martha Tatarnic: Hm.
39:11
>> Loren: Make some friends. And I can see, like, for
39:13
others, they're looking at as like a formative
39:18
formation endeavor.
39:21
>> David: It's either forming their character where I'm
39:22
>> Loren: like, I'm doing that church.
39:25
>> David: Uh, this is the place where they learn their
39:27
value, values. It's also the place where they
39:30
experience ritual and liturgy, and it also becomes
39:35
the. Their road to future salvation. Um, it's all
39:40
these things, and I think it's for the parent. It
39:42
also helps them feel like they are doing enough
39:47
when they Feel like they're not.
39:48
>> Loren: I mean, that's. You've probably seen this article,
39:50
right? Or the. The news story about. Was it New
39:53
Jersey or somewhere? Like, the youth sports
39:56
industry just being insane. And I remember even
40:00
talking to someone at church, like, again, I live
40:03
in Denver metro, and someone talking about how
40:06
they're taking their kid for a soccer game to,
40:09
like, Colorado Springs, and their kid is like, 10.
40:13
>> David: Yeah, that's only going to accelerate.
40:15
>> Loren: I think it's two hours away from. For those
40:17
unfamiliar. I'm like, that's insane in my opinion.
40:21
>> David: Yeah. And I think you still think if you took a
40:24
poll of most of those parents on the sidelines,
40:25
they would say, yeah, this is insane, but, uh, if
40:27
I opt out, my kid's gonna pay the price. And I
40:32
have. It's within my control to sort of safeguard
40:35
some sort of future, you know, ladder for them.
40:39
And I'm gonna do it because that's all I know to
40:42
do because everything else is so confusing. And,
40:45
uh, yeah, I could talk about this. I sort of think
40:49
youth, um, travel, sports, as much as I've. I'm,
40:53
you know, patient zero and, uh, you know, chief of
40:57
sinners. I have a son. I drove all over creation
41:00
for years. But there's something kind of
41:03
diabolical about it.
41:04
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
41:06
Well, let's talk about then. Uh, we've talked
41:08
around this, but let's talk about church and why
41:10
church actually matters. I mean, anybody who's
41:15
listening to this podcast knows I am a person
41:17
who's deeply invested in the church. I mean,
41:21
there's frankly many people in our. Our
41:24
denominations who are just kind of like, uh. I
41:27
mean, I hate to be harsh, but are kind of. I get
41:29
the sense at least they're kind of like, huh, you
41:31
know, if. Yeah, if this church disappeared
41:34
tomorrow, like, whatever, we'd be fine. Or this
41:36
denomination, whatever. I mean. Yeah, I mean, I'm.
41:40
I'm deeply against that, but. Yeah, your
41:44
perspectives.
41:46
>> David: Well, I think it needs you. Before any discussion
41:49
of, like, the positive parts of church, you just
41:51
have to say it. It almost feels like a necessary
41:53
qualification. But church will break your heart.
41:55
>> Loren: Yeah.
41:56
>> David: Like, every institution, like, basic, guess what?
41:59
University, uh, will break your heart too. But
42:01
church really will break your heart. And like,
42:03
that needs to be said from the. And good churches
42:05
will break your heart as well as bad ones will,
42:07
like, ruin your life. Um, however, um, there are.
42:15
I mean, you could argue for church on the basis of
42:18
simply the social benefits alone.
42:19
>> Loren: Yeah. Like Ryan Burge notes.
42:21
>> David: Yes, Ryan Burge is great on this, but just simply
42:24
you know, connections, social connections, and the
42:28
frequency and number of those connections is
42:31
almost enough to sell church to people. However, I
42:34
sort of, I think, uh, there's um, you need more
42:39
than just community. I'm there for God and the
42:43
transcendent and to use the Taylor's phrase, to
42:46
get outside the imminent frame, Uh, I think to be
42:50
reminded, like Eliot says, of sin and death and
42:53
all the things we'd rather forget. Uh, I think.
42:55
But culturally speaking, I need to hear the word
43:00
of forgiveness every week. I need to hear that
43:02
there's a place I can go with my failures. Um, I
43:05
need to worship God together. I think the very act
43:07
of singing together in this kind of. To be
43:11
absorbed in this collective activity, there's
43:13
something deeply healing about that. But again
43:17
that's not even, that's outside of what I think
43:20
the central thing that's going on is that I'm sort
43:23
of doing business with God and I'm um, getting to
43:26
receive. There's so few places, so few
43:29
institutions where you can go, um, and simply
43:35
receive or not have to perform. Um, like I send my
43:40
kids to youth group, not because, I mean I think
43:42
the formation is important, but I also want them
43:44
to have a venue for non performative fun where
43:47
they're not scores keeping. It's not travel,
43:49
sports, it's marshmallows in your mouth kind of
43:53
it's lights out, hide and seek time and that I
43:57
think that's the uh, you know, the great joy of
44:03
being alive is to experience these things. Um, so,
44:08
uh, you know, in my heart of hearts, the reason
44:10
you go to church is to hear the gospel, to be met
44:14
by God in some significant way in the midst of
44:17
your pain afresh, uh, every week. Because you will
44:22
never graduate. This is why Mockingbird is named
44:24
Mockingbird like you will we repeat the same song
44:27
over and over like a mockingbird? Because you will
44:28
never get to the point where you need to hear that
44:31
basic word of God's grace and forgiveness in
44:34
Christ for you week in, week out. But then there's
44:38
just a gazillion other tangible benefits I've just
44:40
mentioned. And then I also think that the people
44:43
in AA have it right when they say if you really
44:47
want to pursue your own happiness, if you really
44:49
want to feel a little bit better, go out and be of
44:52
service to other folks. And churches have any for
44:55
that too. And so it's every single sort of. We can
45:00
be in awe of the moral beauty at the heart of the
45:03
faith. We can experience art and music and, and
45:07
beautiful visuals. We can be in touch with folks
45:11
in the midst of their own struggles. It's, uh, as
45:14
rich in experience as you can have. But because it
45:17
doesn't increase your resume or doesn't boost your
45:20
resume or add some sort of quote unquote, uh,
45:24
measurable value, it adds the most value from
45:29
where I'm sitting, But it does so because it
45:33
doesn't add value in the, the ways that is, uh,
45:37
quantifiable and uh, justifiable according to
45:40
whatever metrics we are currently chasing.
45:43
>> Loren: Well, let me ask about this just because it's come
45:47
to mind because it's part of our conversation. And
45:49
I'm thinking about this because I read this
45:52
somewhere too. This idea if your kid is involved,
45:57
teenager is involved in some big thing in their
46:01
school or some big endeavor like that can go on
46:03
their college application. Right. But I go to
46:06
church every Sunday.
46:09
>> David: Yeah. It doesn't go on there.
46:11
>> Loren: Yeah. You have kids older than me and you, like,
46:18
how do you, uh. I wouldn't even know. I don't even
46:20
know where to start. I guess that's what I'm
46:22
saying, like, because those, uh. Because this is a
46:24
trend that I see. Like, and I'm curious, you've
46:26
worked in youth ministry? You know, it's like, I
46:28
feel like there's this trend early and earlier.
46:30
Like when I was in youth ministry, like 20 years
46:32
ago, it was like once they graduated high school,
46:36
it was like, then you had to worry about them,
46:38
stick around. Now it's like once they get to high
46:40
school, it's like, well, see you later.
46:42
>> David: Yeah, there's something really tragic about it,
46:45
and I think it's insidious. I can call a spade a
46:48
spade. I don't think these forces are good. You
46:50
mentioned Nandra Root earlier though, and he. The
46:53
acceleration we're seeing is only going to
46:55
increase. And that is some level of acceptance you
47:00
have to have in order to just simply survive. Um,
47:05
otherwise you start to hate the people that do
47:07
come to church or like, why you're constantly
47:10
worried about why aren't you here. More often
47:12
people feel that the truth is, given the amount of
47:16
quicksand or you might even say headwinds that
47:20
people, young families are facing, the fact that
47:22
they get there at all should be reason to rejoice.
47:26
Um, but yeah, it's never going to be sexy. It's
47:30
never going to be something that gets you into
47:32
college. But unfortunately, I think that our
47:36
colleges are filled with desperately unhappy young
47:39
people who haven't learned how to, um, um,
47:45
integrate their negative experiences. And they
47:48
think they really do have, they really have taken
47:51
on a view of life as sort of performative and
47:55
getting ahead in very specific ways and narrower
47:58
and narrower ways. And I think that, that those
48:01
bills come, come, uh, they, those cows come home
48:06
to roost. And I think the best thing we could do
48:08
for our children is to, is to um, have some sense
48:12
that there's other things going on in the world
48:14
and that um, what's better, do we want a kid who
48:21
will get ah, ahead faster or do we want a kid who
48:24
will still do fine, but maybe also has some
48:26
resources to deal with life, which is brutal? So I
48:32
think the church is, I've never seen more urgency
48:35
for church in this respect. Um, but I also know,
48:40
um, how hard it is for parents and I want to be
48:43
compassionate there. Uh, but yeah, I see, I think
48:48
some of the revival though you're seeing among Gen
48:51
Z and you know, some of the stats say it's
48:56
happening, some of them say it's not. I think
48:58
something is happening. There's an increased
49:00
openness, at least that's different from 30
49:03
somethings. And I think there's a widespread
49:05
recognition that something about the bill of goods
49:07
they were sold is rotten. And this kind of world
49:10
of Internet performativity, uh, is despair
49:16
inducing. And I hear about it more and more. And I
49:21
also see it at our church like our pews are fuller
49:25
than they've ever been with people who feel
49:28
hollowed out by modern life.
49:31
>> Loren: I mean, to bring this back to your book, you know,
49:34
you went away from that metaphor of the bill
49:36
coming due. I think there is that like, I think
49:39
the false gospel I've heard false, uh, gospel is
49:42
something where you pay, it gains. Right. I think
49:47
all these things we've been talking about are, you
49:49
know, things where we pay and it gains and the
49:54
bill comes due. And I think that's where I go back
49:57
to your work here with big relief, you know, the
50:01
urgency of grace for a worn out world. I'm excited
50:04
to read the series kind of in reverse. I do that a
50:06
lot. But again, I want to recommend the book. Um,
50:11
let's move on to some closing questions because I
50:14
know you're sure we're running out of gas or run
50:16
out of time here.
50:17
Uh, so closing questions. You're welcome to take
50:19
these as seriously or not as you'd like to. If,
50:22
uh, you're pope for a day, what are you gonna do
50:25
with that day?
50:27
>> David: If I'm pope for a day? Oh my goodness. Um, that's
50:36
a great question. And like I went to a Catholic
50:39
University. So, like, I, um, have been thinking a
50:42
little bit about the Catholic Church recently. Um,
50:46
if I'm Pope for a day, I would probably just try
50:49
to write some sort of encyclical. Not about AI, as
50:54
important as that is. I would just like to write
50:56
something about the grace of God and just hammer
51:02
uh, it home in fresh terms. And the Catholic
51:05
Church has a ton to draw on in that tradition. But
51:07
I think my experience of people in the pews is
51:10
that is not necessarily that they ever, um,
51:13
internalize that. Um, and so I would probably do
51:17
something like maybe that sounds Pollyanna or uh,
51:21
pie in the sky, but hey, that's what I would do.
51:23
>> Loren: This question is meant to be. Okay, yeah. A
51:26
theologian or historical Christian figure you'd
51:28
want to meet or bring back to life.
51:32
>> David: Oh, goodness. Um, I get the sense G.K. chesterton
51:37
would have been a whole lot of fun too hang out
51:39
with. I don't agree with him on everything. Uh,
51:41
but he's. The older I get, the more um, one liners
51:49
I encounter from him, particularly everyone, you
51:52
know, he stars in their eyes about uh, Lewis or
51:58
Elliot or some of those kind of inkling types. But
52:01
for me, Chesterton, I just would have, he seems
52:04
like he would have been a great time and I'm very
52:07
interested in Christians who have a good sense of
52:09
humor. And he I think is almost archetypal in that
52:12
way.
52:13
>> Loren: That's good, that's good.
52:15
Um, what do you think history will remember from
52:18
our current time and place?
52:22
>> David: I think. Well, I wouldn't, I don't want to.
52:29
There's a lot of different things history will
52:31
remember. I think right now what I think is that
52:33
the period of unfettered access to screens and
52:38
social media will be looked back upon as a mammoth
52:41
public health mistake. Um, there will be a, ah,
52:45
correction according to the same way that
52:48
cigarettes have been corrected for. Screens will
52:51
still dominate our lives, but the way that they
52:54
do, I think we will have seen that the kind of
52:58
almost like the robber barons of Silicon Valley
53:00
will have. Um, it can't create this much suffering
53:06
and misery in people for too long without there
53:10
being a sort of a hold on the phone. Right now
53:15
you're talking to me in early 2026, everyone's
53:19
saying that this is the time when AI is emerging.
53:21
And I've experienced some very unsettling things
53:23
along those lines. But I think it's, I'm no better
53:26
than to prognosticate about, um.
53:28
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I saw your Jonathan Haidt
53:32
books. I know you've had him Right at.
53:35
>> David: Yeah, he spoke to one of our conferences.
53:37
>> Loren: When I read, it's funny, like I went. My
53:39
daughter's middle school was giving out his books.
53:41
Right. Book group. So of course I read it and
53:44
showed up and that was me and like 14 moms. I was
53:47
like, well I'm not coming back here. But I think
53:51
like what struck me so much reading that book was
53:54
this sort of like performative nature. Everybody
53:57
in the group was like, with like well we do this,
54:00
like we only get our kids. They had to like kind
54:03
of self justify themselves to use a theological
54:06
word about how they do screens. Um, and I feel
54:12
like what hit me about his book was like I, ah,
54:14
tried to tell this to my 13 year old. Like what I
54:17
feel like was so missing from it is like this
54:19
sense of like kids are just missing a sense of
54:22
purpose. Like what is my life about?
54:24
>> David: Yeah, yeah, that's what's driving, what's driving
54:33
the pathological use of screens is a, is a uh,
54:39
mattering and meaning question. That's what
54:42
Jennifer Wallace's book mattering and her book,
54:44
ah, Never Enough I think are really insightful on
54:47
this question. It gets a little underneath. But I
54:50
think Haidt is wonderful and that book is a bit of
54:52
a miracle, um, in the sense of seeing all sorts of
54:57
different schools from different ideological
54:59
perspectives embrace it and actually take action
55:03
according to it. It's like uh, someone saying
55:07
something that's true at the right time in the
55:10
right way and people just basically being unable
55:13
to deny it.
55:15
>> Loren: Yeah.
55:16
What are your hopes for the future of
55:18
Christianity?
55:24
>> David: Well, I think that the church has a message that
55:29
addresses people in their pain with real hope and
55:34
a message of salvation that's unique, urgent. And
55:38
my hope is that the church is able to um. It's
55:43
always that hope that the church is renewing
55:45
itself and kind of getting back to core
55:48
principles. I think when the church gets confused
55:51
with a social justice organization or when it gets
55:55
confused with a cultural um, uh, uh, preservation
56:02
society or like those are really damaging in both
56:06
ways. I think that if the church can get back to
56:10
the forgiveness of sins business and the Jesus
56:13
Christ business, which I see more and more, I see
56:17
it in local ways a lot. I think there's uh, no
56:22
telling. So I have a lot of hope, um, for the
56:26
Christian church. A lot of the clergy I talk to
56:29
are sort of have fed up with what they inherited
56:32
from sort of boomers and um, I don't know what
56:40
forms it'll take, if it'll take the same kind of
56:45
voluntary association. Yeah, I Don't know. Um, I'm
56:49
interested to see. So, um, yeah, I think the
56:55
church needs to. I would love to see the church
56:58
reclaim some sense of eternity. Um, if I hear
57:03
another Christian say, oh, the gospel isn't just
57:06
about getting into heaven or something like that.
57:08
Well, it's a little about getting into heaven. You
57:11
know, like, it's not, I have
57:14
>> Loren: to rewrite my sermon for tomorrow.
57:15
>> David: No, I think it's meaning, like, I just want to
57:18
have an eternal view of things.
57:19
>> Loren: Sure.
57:20
>> David: If I don't want to. The church has been shrunk
57:22
down into dealing only with horizontal concerns.
57:25
And, like, I think it's. I think there's a
57:28
metaphysical, spiritual reality that's larger than
57:32
that.
57:33
>> Loren: Yeah.
57:33
>> David: And I want to us, uh, to regain some confidence in
57:36
that regard.
57:36
>> Loren: No, that makes sense. That makes sense. Well, how
57:39
can folks connect with you? Mockingbird, all that
57:41
stuff.
57:42
>> David: Uh, mbird.com is where mockingbird is housed
57:46
online. And the Mocking Cast is my principal
57:48
podcast. I also am in the Brother Saul podcast.
57:51
And yeah, books. You know, I got to tell you,
57:55
people like my books, or if they bought them, do,
57:58
uh, rate and review them. We're living in a.
58:03
People aren't reading as much. And I think that
58:04
that's. Christians are reading more than normal
58:06
folks, which I think is a great thing. But, um, if
58:11
you have an author you love, it doesn't have to be
58:13
me. Uh, do what you can to help spread the word.
58:19
You know, that's what authors need is, uh, people
58:23
writing those little Amazon reviews and Goodreads
58:25
and telling their church about their work.
58:28
>> Loren: Okay, so listeners, if you're listening right now,
58:31
after this is done, go write a review for Martha's
58:33
book, go write a review for David's book, and
58:36
then. I've not been promoting this big time, but
58:38
when this book. Well, my book will actually come
58:41
out September, so it won't be at a bit of write a
58:44
review, but go in pre order it maybe.
58:47
>> David: Yeah.
58:47
>> Loren: Pre orders.
58:48
>> David: This is how the algorithms work. That's why
58:50
authors are talking about it. I wish it weren't
58:52
the case, but it's how it is.
58:54
>> Loren: Well, thanks so much for your time. We always
58:56
leave folks with a word of peace, so may God's
58:58
peace be with you.
58:59
>> David: Amen. Thanks for joining us on the Future
59:04
Christian Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is
59:07
produced by Resonate Media. We love to hear from
59:10
our listeners with questions, comments, and ideas
59:12
for future episodes. Visit our
59:14
website@future-christian.com and find the Connect
59:18
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59:21
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59:24
us a favor. Subscribe to the pod to leave a
59:27
review. It really helps us get this out to more
59:29
people. Thanks and go in peace.