Latest / Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast / IFH 873: Film School Won’t Teach You This About Making Movies with Jason Kartalian

Transcript

IFH 873: Film School Won’t Teach You This About Making Movies with Jason Kartalian · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the IFH Podcast Network.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork.com.
• 0:12
  Speaker 3: Welcome to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, episode number 873.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: You try to do it, and you do it honestly.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: You can't control people's responses, really.
• 0:21
  Speaker 4: Edgar Wright.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood, it's the Indie
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: the film biz. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: Welcome, welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast.
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: sponsored by Rise of the Filmtrepreneur, how to turn your
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: independent film into a profitable business. It's harder today than
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: ever before for independent filmmakers to make money with their films.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: From predatory film distributors ripping them off to huckster film
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: aggregators who prey upon them, the odds are stacked against
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: the indie filmmaker. The old distribution model of making money
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: with your film is broken and there needs to be
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: a change. The future of independent filmmaking is the entrepreneurial
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: filmmaker or the filmtrepreneur. In Rise of the Filmtrepreneur, I
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: break down how to actually make money with your film
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: projects and show you how to turn your indie film
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: into a profitable business. With case studies examining successes and failures,
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: this book shows you the step-by-step method to turn your
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: passion into a profitable career. If you're making a feature film, series,
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: or any other kind of video content, the Filmtrepreneur Method
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: will set you up for success. The book is available
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: in paperback, e-book, and of course, audiobook. If you want
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: to order it, just head over to www.FilmBizBook.com. That's FilmBizBook.com.
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Dave Bullis.
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: Joining me today is Jason Cartallion. Jason is a film producer, director,
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: and writer. He is best known for the films Driller
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: and the recent release Seahorses. Jason, how are you, sir?
• 2:06
  Speaker 5: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me, Dave.
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: Oh, my pleasure. Now, I just want to make sure
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: I didn't butcher your last name, right?
• 2:12
  Speaker 5: No, no. You did a great job. It's Cartallion. It's
• 2:16
  Speaker 5: like driving a car and Italian mixed together, even though
• 2:19
  Speaker 5: I'm not Italian. I, I, I'm glad I, I was
• 2:23
  Speaker 5: able to get that.
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: Um, cause you know, like we were talking about before
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: in the, in the pre-interview, um, like, like when I
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: butchered Cassian's last name, uh, I thought he was going
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: to hang up on me, but you know, Jason, I
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: want to say thank you for coming on the show and,
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: you know, just to get started, you know, how did
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: you get started in the film industry?
• 2:40
  Speaker 5: Uh, yeah, I've always been a showbiz kid. Uh, my father,
• 2:44
  Speaker 5: his name is Buck Cartallion. Actually, uh, we're, we're Armenian descent. Um, but, uh,
• 2:50
  Speaker 5: My father is a well-known character actor and pretty distinctive.
• 2:57
  Speaker 5: And in fact, I actually look a lot like him.
• 2:59
  Speaker 5: So a lot of people see pictures of him and
• 3:01
  Speaker 5: then they'll see a movie and they're like, hey, he
• 3:03
  Speaker 5: looks just like you. My father was in the original
• 3:07
  Speaker 5: Planet of the Apes. Uh, I actually, I mean, he
• 3:10
  Speaker 5: played an ape, so it doesn't really look like me
• 3:13
  Speaker 5: as an ape, but he was where, but, but he
• 3:15
  Speaker 5: was Julius keeper of the cages and, and that's his, his,
• 3:18
  Speaker 5: his most well-known role. He was, he beat up Charlton Heston.
• 3:22
  Speaker 5: He sprayed him with a hose. Uh, his, uh, one
• 3:25
  Speaker 5: of his, uh, famous lines was a human see human do. Um,
• 3:29
  Speaker 5: and he was a cigar smoking ape. So, uh, he
• 3:32
  Speaker 5: was like, and he was the only ape that had
• 3:34
  Speaker 5: a New York accent. So that was, uh, And my
• 3:37
  Speaker 5: father was also in Cool Hand Luke and Outlaw Josie Wales.
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: And I mean, I remember one of my earliest memories,
• 3:45
  Speaker 5: like when I was like maybe 10, 11, I mean,
• 3:47
  Speaker 5: on a film set was like we were on the
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: old Desilu set. My dad was doing a TV series
• 3:54
  Speaker 5: called Monster Squad. And I remember watching them shoot. And
• 4:00
  Speaker 5: looking at the amazing sets they were building and looking
• 4:03
  Speaker 5: at the craft and the way they were shooting and
• 4:06
  Speaker 5: how they were shooting in little segments. And it was
• 4:09
  Speaker 5: so exciting. And I really feel that that being on
• 4:13
  Speaker 5: sets and and seeing my father's professionalism and seeing, you know,
• 4:18
  Speaker 5: how he attacked roles and being connected with the theater
• 4:23
  Speaker 5: and doing all these different things sort of just just.
• 4:26
  Speaker 5: you know, maybe destined to being a part of this
• 4:29
  Speaker 5: crazy business.
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: That's absolutely amazing. You know, I don't think I've had
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: anyone yet whose father was an actor. I'd have to
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: check on that, but that's actually a very unique story.
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: You have a very unique Avenue of how you actually
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: got into the film industry. When growing up though, did
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: your dad ever encourage you to get in? Or did
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: maybe he say like, Hey, you know, Jason, there's other
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: things besides, you know, the film industry.
• 4:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah. He told me to get the hell out. No, I,
• 4:56
  Speaker 5: I think, I think that, um, you know, I mean, I,
• 5:01
  Speaker 5: you know, in retrospect, my family was a little unorthodox and,
• 5:05
  Speaker 5: and they, they, they encouraged me to follow my dreams.
• 5:08
  Speaker 5: I mean, we, we, my, my dad would have these
• 5:10
  Speaker 5: big parties like 4th of July parties and every 4th
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: of July party, I would make a movie and, and
• 5:17
  Speaker 5: it would be like totally ridiculous. And, and it would
• 5:20
  Speaker 5: be like, uh, you know, I don't know. uh, just, just,
• 5:23
  Speaker 5: you know, George Washington and ridiculous, insane, you know, uh,
• 5:28
  Speaker 5: you know, situations. And we, we, you know, so in
• 5:31
  Speaker 5: some ways, you know, I would work with him and
• 5:34
  Speaker 5: we would create things. So, so by through, through, through working,
• 5:38
  Speaker 5: he would definitely encourage me. I mean, I, you know, and,
• 5:40
  Speaker 5: and we would, you know, he would buy me like
• 5:42
  Speaker 5: the latest video camera, you know, and it was like
• 5:45
  Speaker 5: a ridiculous VHS camera at the time. I'm showing my age,
• 5:48
  Speaker 5: by the way. And, you know, we would shoot things.
• 5:52
  Speaker 5: And I remember shooting Super 8. And so, I mean, the.
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: Tools were there.
• 5:57
  Speaker 5: I was always around the gear and equipment. And I
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: think it was a natural step. I mean, I think
• 6:04
  Speaker 5: the life of an actor and the life of a
• 6:05
  Speaker 5: filmmaker are kind of, in some ways, diametrically opposed. I
• 6:09
  Speaker 5: think that, and in some ways, that's probably why I
• 6:12
  Speaker 5: got involved in filmmaking. I saw that my dad, you know,
• 6:15
  Speaker 5: sometimes he'd, you know, you know, book a lot of roles.
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: And then sometimes he wouldn't get any parts. And, and
• 6:21
  Speaker 5: he felt in, in some ways he was sort of
• 6:23
  Speaker 5: at the mercy of producers and other, and other people
• 6:27
  Speaker 5: that made decisions. And, and as a filmmaker, I make
• 6:30
  Speaker 5: those decisions. So, so in some ways I want to
• 6:33
  Speaker 5: have maybe more control over my life per se, then
• 6:36
  Speaker 5: per se that actor's life where you sort of have to,
• 6:41
  Speaker 5: you know, take other people's, you know, work and then
• 6:45
  Speaker 5: bring it to that next level. Other than, you know,
• 6:48
  Speaker 5: I love working with actors. I love meeting actors. But
• 6:52
  Speaker 5: I also would never be in front of the camera.
• 6:55
  Speaker 5: I mean, as an actor, I think that to me,
• 7:00
  Speaker 5: I love being behind the camera and working and collaborating
• 7:04
  Speaker 5: with people that are super trained and are focused in
• 7:09
  Speaker 5: on that craft.
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: So Jason, I have to ask, was there ever a
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: time where you were able to cast your dad in anything? Yes.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 7:15
  Speaker 5: In fact, he was in my first film, which is
• 7:17
  Speaker 5: called pedestrian. And, and, uh, I made that in, in, uh, 2000, uh, the, uh,
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: the release, uh, titles called one false step. And it
• 7:27
  Speaker 5: was a great experience. We shot on real film. Uh,
• 7:30
  Speaker 5: we shot, we shot on 16 millimeter, uh, and, uh, um,
• 7:35
  Speaker 5: it turned out really good. I mean, I, it, we, we, uh,
• 7:38
  Speaker 5: We got good reviews. It was well-received. It was an
• 7:43
  Speaker 5: excellent first step into the filmmaking business. It's so funny
• 7:49
  Speaker 5: because I used a lot of my dad's contacts to
• 7:52
  Speaker 5: get actors, like old-time and cool actors, to be in
• 7:56
  Speaker 5: the film. We got, I don't know if you know
• 7:58
  Speaker 5: this actor, Avery Shriver is in the film. There's actor
• 8:01
  Speaker 5: Peter Onorati and Louis Gus, these great, incredible character actors.
• 8:06
  Speaker 5: It's so funny because you know, those, I remember the
• 8:08
  Speaker 5: all being in one room together, you know, my dad
• 8:11
  Speaker 5: and all these people. And they're just, just, just, just,
• 8:15
  Speaker 5: I don't know, two centuries, three centuries of, of like
• 8:18
  Speaker 5: incredible acting talent, like all in one room. And I'm like,
• 8:22
  Speaker 5: I just like, I'm this young guy. I'm like, I
• 8:24
  Speaker 5: got nothing. You guys just do it. You know, you,
• 8:27
  Speaker 5: you know, you get humbled when you're, you know, you're
• 8:30
  Speaker 5: with just, just people that are just, uh, you know,
• 8:33
  Speaker 5: just incredibly talented. And, and, uh, I think that that's, uh, yeah. And, and,
• 8:38
  Speaker 5: and it's so funny too, because I remember my dad,
• 8:40
  Speaker 5: he just like basically changed all his lines and I
• 8:43
  Speaker 5: just let him, I'm like, I'm like, it's my dad,
• 8:45
  Speaker 5: you know, what can you do? I mean, it's like,
• 8:49
  Speaker 5: he's been, he's been, he'd been acting at the time.
• 8:51
  Speaker 5: He'd been acting for like 40 years. I'm like, I,
• 8:53
  Speaker 5: you know, what am I going to do? I just
• 8:54
  Speaker 5: let him, let him go for it. And, uh, um,
• 8:59
  Speaker 5: you know, I mean, I think, I think the other
• 9:00
  Speaker 5: thing was as filmmakers, as artists, the one thing I
• 9:03
  Speaker 5: did learn, you know, especially, you know, making my first
• 9:05
  Speaker 5: film is I think we're, we're, we try to make
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: people feel, you know, and I think that that's important.
• 9:14
  Speaker 5: We want to make people feel, empathize and feel emotion and,
• 9:19
  Speaker 5: and take people on a, on an emotional journey. And, and, uh,
• 9:23
  Speaker 5: And it's part of everything. It's the writing. It's the craft.
• 9:29
  Speaker 5: It's the camera. It's the acting. It's all these different levels.
• 9:32
  Speaker 5: It's the production design. It's the way we like the thing.
• 9:37
  Speaker 5: I mean, all these things make people feel. And I
• 9:41
  Speaker 5: think that as an artist, I think that's what our
• 9:45
  Speaker 5: goals are.
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: So, Jason, did your father ever talk about what things
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: that directors would do that would just annoy actors?
• 9:53
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think....
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: And now, back to the show.
• 10:05
  Speaker 5: I mean, I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't... I
• 10:08
  Speaker 5: don't know if he ever talked about what would be...
• 10:10
  Speaker 5: I mean, he was so professional. He never complained about anything.
• 10:13
  Speaker 5: He was just happy to work. I mean, he'd work
• 10:15
  Speaker 5: for free. He'd do, like, play... I mean, I think
• 10:20
  Speaker 5: that most actors probably are concerned about directors that are
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: maybe too focused in on the technical side and they
• 10:34
  Speaker 5: don't understand maybe the fact that actors are putting their
• 10:40
  Speaker 5: work in and I think that a lot of times
• 10:46
  Speaker 5: it's very easy to get drowned in the, the, the, the,
• 10:49
  Speaker 5: you know, the cameras and the, the, you know, DIT
• 10:53
  Speaker 5: and the, you know, and, and what lens to use.
• 10:56
  Speaker 5: But I mean, I mean, honestly, you know, we're all
• 10:59
  Speaker 5: trying to work with truth and, and, you know, if
• 11:02
  Speaker 5: you have a master shot with an incredible performance, I
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: don't know, it doesn't matter what kind of lens you
• 11:09
  Speaker 5: use and, you know, you've, you've, you've created some kind
• 11:11
  Speaker 5: of truth one way or another. So, so I, I think,
• 11:14
  Speaker 5: I think, you know, I feel like it's important to
• 11:20
  Speaker 5: be a part of the tools and understand the tools,
• 11:22
  Speaker 5: but also it's important to understand the human side and
• 11:27
  Speaker 5: hopefully everything's working together. So, I mean, so, so, you know,
• 11:33
  Speaker 5: I think, I think, you know, every actor has a
• 11:35
  Speaker 5: different process. You know, my dad was all into rehearsal.
• 11:40
  Speaker 5: I think that's where I got rehearsal from. I mean, I,
• 11:42
  Speaker 5: when I was making my, my, my feature seahorses, I
• 11:46
  Speaker 5: worked with my actors for a couple of months before
• 11:48
  Speaker 5: we shot, and it was a great experience to sort
• 11:52
  Speaker 5: of work it out like a play before we shot,
• 11:55
  Speaker 5: because then all the work was done before we had
• 11:59
  Speaker 5: to worry about all the technical side after that. And
• 12:03
  Speaker 5: you could be able to trust with the actors. I
• 12:06
  Speaker 5: think that's important. So I just think that understanding that
• 12:13
  Speaker 5: everyone has... a role in making a film. Everyone's basically
• 12:19
  Speaker 5: serving the script. Everyone's part of the tapestry that makes
• 12:25
  Speaker 5: maybe a beautiful experience.
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: Very well said. I just generally ask that because I know,
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: you know, I don't have many actors on this podcast,
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: but I've always, you know, just talking with many directors,
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: you know, a lot of times directors will say, that's
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: what I do with rehearsal because I have to see
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: how to direct each actor, because, like, for instance, when
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: I had on, I'm going to forget his name now,
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: but when he was on, this one I'm thinking of
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: in my head, he directed Ron Perlman, and he was like,
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: you know, and he was a little taken aback, and
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: then he was like, you know, Ron was just like, look,
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: just tell me if you want me to go faster, slower, whatever.
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: He's like, and I'll handle the rest. And, you know,
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: I think that's what, you know, a lot of times
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: directors do, is that we have to sort of, you know,
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: find out the actors in the room and figure out,
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: you know, how exactly we're going to direct this. And
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: like you said, you rehearse it a lot. And that way,
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: when you finally get to shooting, you're not wasting a
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: lot of time on set.
• 13:18
  Speaker 5: I mean, I really think it depends on what you're doing.
• 13:20
  Speaker 5: Like when I was making my horror movie, it was
• 13:23
  Speaker 5: a lot about, I mean, we were like working with
• 13:25
  Speaker 5: certain tropes and we were doing things that were like,
• 13:29
  Speaker 5: you know, you want things pacing wise to move very quickly.
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: With Seahorses, it's a sort of kind of art film,
• 13:36
  Speaker 5: romantic drama kind of, And we were definitely working with moments,
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: and so it was about sustaining moments. And sometimes you
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: can say way more with a look and a pause
• 13:49
  Speaker 5: than you can with just a pacing thing. I really
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: think it really depends on the, the, the, the, you know,
• 14:00
  Speaker 5: what you're doing, the, the, the, the, you know, what
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: your needs are, you know, in the, in the piece.
• 14:06
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think what probably drives a lot of
• 14:08
  Speaker 5: actors crazy is probably doing a lot of takes. You know,
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: it's so funny. I remember way back when I was
• 14:15
  Speaker 5: helping a friend and, you know, it's funny. I was like,
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: he's like, oh, we need a, we need an extra.
• 14:19
  Speaker 5: And I'm like, all right, you know, I'll do it.
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: And I was sitting there and, And it was like
• 14:22
  Speaker 5: a scene where the actor was entering the doorway. And
• 14:25
  Speaker 5: they had the actor enter the doorway like, I don't know,
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: 25 times. And I was just, you know, I was like,
• 14:30
  Speaker 5: I don't know, I was drinking a beer. It was
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: in the background, but I was watching. And when I
• 14:35
  Speaker 5: saw the finished film, you know, I'm like, wow, they
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: did a lot of takes of that guy entering the doorway.
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: They went up there. I mean, it was almost like,
• 14:43
  Speaker 5: you know, four hours of them getting a shot of
• 14:45
  Speaker 5: this actor entering this location. And when you see the film,
• 14:49
  Speaker 5: the actor's already in the location. They never... He never
• 14:52
  Speaker 5: used that that sequence. And so it's kind of thing
• 14:55
  Speaker 5: where it's like it's like, you know, you know, if
• 14:58
  Speaker 5: you can serve the actor the best way, what's the
• 15:02
  Speaker 5: most important thing? Maybe the actor's performance, maybe the actor,
• 15:06
  Speaker 5: you know, you know, these important lines, these things, you know,
• 15:10
  Speaker 5: maybe take the time with the important meeting me stuff.
• 15:14
  Speaker 5: And and transitionals and things like that. I mean, they
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: may be, you know, out the door, but the most
• 15:19
  Speaker 5: important stuff is the meat of the piece. And so,
• 15:22
  Speaker 5: you know, maybe not, you know, preserving the actor's energy
• 15:27
  Speaker 5: and not making million takes that are exactly the same and.
• 15:32
  Speaker 5: you know, and maybe having a very, very, you know,
• 15:35
  Speaker 5: a tight shooting list. So you don't have to shoot
• 15:39
  Speaker 5: from every single angle known to mankind, you know, sort
• 15:42
  Speaker 5: of preserving the actor and also preserving the crew and
• 15:46
  Speaker 5: being able to handle, especially in a low budget set,
• 15:50
  Speaker 5: being able to shoot, you know, I don't know, eight, 10,
• 15:53
  Speaker 5: 12 pages a day.
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: And I've seen that too, where, you know, some filmmakers
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: shoot way too much coverage of a particular scene or
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: a particular action, like an actor walking into a location,
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: and then you watch the final film or the finished film,
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: and none of you ever made it, and you're like, well,
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: that was an entire day well spent, but I've been
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: there myself, and I'm guilty of that as well. You know,
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: it's funny.
• 16:19
  Speaker 5: The only thing I do, and this is really funny,
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: but it's like, okay, let's shoot everything in a master shot.
• 16:26
  Speaker 5: So if the police come... if there's a, you know,
• 16:30
  Speaker 5: if there's some emergency, if the actor gets sick, at
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: least we can put, we can cut the master shot
• 16:35
  Speaker 5: into the movie. We got the scene. So, I mean, again,
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: I mean, you know, I mean, I'm joking, but I'm
• 16:44
  Speaker 5: sort of serious too because a lot of times, you know,
• 16:47
  Speaker 5: you at least get it, get, you know, get the
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: story down, you know, that's, you know, especially when you're
• 16:53
  Speaker 5: fighting the clock and, you know, I mean, I mean,
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: making films, you know, making films at the level that, that, that,
• 17:00
  Speaker 5: that I've made films, you know, they're, they're like, they're
• 17:02
  Speaker 5: small miracles that they get done.
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: Everyone I have on here, you know, there's always a
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: whole host of things that sort of had to align
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: just so they could make a movie, whether it was
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: a student film or, you know, even with they, when
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: they have a, you know, a pretty sizable budget, It's
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: always like everything sort of has to align just right
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: because usually you start off a pretty good attitude about
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: everything and then gradually you get beaten down, Jason. You're like,
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: I'm done with filmmaking. I'm never making a film again.
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: And then six months later, you're like, I got to
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: make another film.
• 17:36
  Speaker 5: Well, it's a sickness. So yeah, you know it. But
• 17:43
  Speaker 5: it's funny. I remember when I was making Driller, it
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: was so funny because it's like, we shot at night,
• 17:50
  Speaker 5: we were shooting in like this ranch in Malibu. There
• 17:52
  Speaker 5: were like tarantulas and snakes and bees. And I mean, literally,
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: literally it was like every, it was, it was like
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: the hardest shoots every single night. I'm like, the next
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: film I do, I'm going to shoot all inside. It
• 18:08
  Speaker 5: was like, and, and, uh, And in some ways, that was,
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: I mean, in some ways, Seahorses was that film where we,
• 18:14
  Speaker 5: I mean, I don't think, I think there's one big
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: exterior scene we shot on a rooftop and then everything
• 18:19
  Speaker 5: else was interior and we were able to control the
• 18:21
  Speaker 5: lighting and we didn't have any problems with sound and
• 18:24
  Speaker 5: we were able to shoot things really well and we
• 18:26
  Speaker 5: were able to create great style because it's like, literally,
• 18:29
  Speaker 5: when you're shooting outside and you've got all these company
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: moves and the elements, it's freezing cold and the actors
• 18:37
  Speaker 5: are running around in their underwear. You know, well, it's
• 18:38
  Speaker 5: a horror movie, obviously. And, you know, it's just you
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: get to a point where, you know, you you know,
• 18:47
  Speaker 5: you you want to you want those creature comforts of
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: being in a studio, you know. So so it is
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: funny when when, you know, the you get you get
• 18:57
  Speaker 5: tortured and then you say, oh, I'll rethink it. And
• 19:00
  Speaker 5: then there's this new tortures, you know, you know. And
• 19:03
  Speaker 5: once you've created another perfect world, there's always a million
• 19:07
  Speaker 5: other problems that you have to find solutions for. And that's,
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: you know, and, and I really think also too filmmaking
• 19:14
  Speaker 5: is about dealing with adversity, you know, and that's, you know,
• 19:20
  Speaker 5: that's simple. And if you have a great team that
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: can deal with adversity and people you trust, be it
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: the actors, be it the, the, the, the, the, the,
• 19:29
  Speaker 5: the camera department, the, the producers, everyone. If you're in
• 19:34
  Speaker 5: a team where you're all in it together, you're unstoppable.
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and that is something I've also learned too just
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: by doing is the importance of actually building a great
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: team around you uh because even one person uh with
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: a bad attitude can really spread to other people i've
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: told this story before the podcast but i had a
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: direct cinematography that came you know well well recommended and
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: then he got there and he never he he acted
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: from the first moment i met him.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: That he didn't want to be there. He just sort of,
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: he was standoffish to everybody. And I was like, is
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: there something wrong that I did or something? And he
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: just wouldn't say anything. And finally, the next day, he
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: and I got into it pretty badly. So I was like,
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: and I wanted to fire him. And the producers were like,
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: don't fire him yet. You know, we need his red camera. So,
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: but yeah, but I completely get what you're saying, Jason.
• 20:36
  Speaker 5: Well, the other thing too, it's really funny because I mean, again,
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: I had a wonderful job. I went with Seahorse as
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: we worked with this very talented DP named Basil Maroner.
• 20:47
  Speaker 5: And he was great. And we have a great working relationship.
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: And we're going to collaborate on the next film together.
• 20:54
  Speaker 5: But I have like this sort of secret weapon. My
• 20:56
  Speaker 5: secret weapon is I can shoot. And generally, we're using
• 21:01
  Speaker 5: my own gear. So if there's ever a problem, you know,
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think that's the thing too. It's like
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: literally when... they say, oh, I can't like this. I'm like, yes,
• 21:10
  Speaker 5: you can. You know, we can't do this. Yes, you can. Oh, well,
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: if you can't do it, I can. Okay, I'll do
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: it and light it. You know, I mean, literally, if
• 21:21
  Speaker 5: you have the knowledge, at least know, you know, certain
• 21:24
  Speaker 5: basics of how to operate the camera, how to turn
• 21:27
  Speaker 5: it on, how to make sure that, you know, the,
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: you know, the lighting's proper, you know, I mean, worst
• 21:32
  Speaker 5: case scenario when all hell breaks loose, you know, okay,
• 21:36
  Speaker 5: I can run the soundboard. I can, you know, I
• 21:39
  Speaker 5: can boom the, the actors. I mean, maybe it comes
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: from just being, being able to do it all in
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: one way or another. Uh, and, and I think that
• 21:46
  Speaker 5: that's helpful. I think, I think it's important as a, um,
• 21:50
  Speaker 5: as a director, especially when you're working with, um, you know,
• 21:53
  Speaker 5: in the indie film budgets, it's important to know everybody's
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: role and to, to understand how to set up a
• 21:59
  Speaker 5: C stand and, You know, all sorts of like little
• 22:03
  Speaker 5: like like like little dumb things that that end up being,
• 22:07
  Speaker 5: you know, not dumb when you need to do them
• 22:09
  Speaker 5: right away. So so so again, I think that that's
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: the other elements. I think I think my understanding of
• 22:17
  Speaker 5: cameras and lighting and lenses, you know, I think help
• 22:22
  Speaker 5: the the the product. of what, what, you know, of what,
• 22:26
  Speaker 5: what I'm, I'm after. I mean, I mean, I, I
• 22:28
  Speaker 5: generally don't want to be the person being the cinematographer.
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: I feel like that's a separate job. Cinematographer does really
• 22:35
  Speaker 5: set the pace for the shoot. Uh, so it's really
• 22:38
  Speaker 5: important that you're hiring and working with somebody that, you know,
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: you know, you, you trust and, and, and you know
• 22:45
  Speaker 5: how they work. Because you don't want to be in
• 22:48
  Speaker 5: a situation where you're being held hostage by anyone. You
• 22:51
  Speaker 5: want everyone to be on the same page and everyone
• 22:53
  Speaker 5: to be excited and everyone to understand the story and
• 22:57
  Speaker 5: everyone to understand the theme. And I think that that's
• 23:04
  Speaker 5: the key to making an interesting film.
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, very true. And you speak about being held hostage.
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: One of my friends of mine, he was actually held
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: hostage by a director of cinematography, because it was the
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: last day of filming, and the director of cinematography had
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: all the footage and everything and said, I'm not coming
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: to the shoot today unless you pay me X amount
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: of dollars. From what I gather, I've heard multiple versions
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: of different points of view of the story, and apparently
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: there was something agreed to at some point that the
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: director or producer didn't remember. Obviously, it's a he said,
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: I said, you said type of deal. But, you know,
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: that is one thing where I've been like, you know
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: how you avoid being held hostage? Or at least one
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: thing that helps me avoid being held hostage is having
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: people sign contracts.
• 23:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I was actually going to say the same thing.
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: There's two lessons you can learn from that story. Number one,
• 24:03
  Speaker 5: make sure everything's down on paper, that there's a crew memo,
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: that everyone on the set signs, so that You know,
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: there's a relationship and also part of the chain of
• 24:16
  Speaker 5: title of the film. That's all distribution stuff. And then also,
• 24:21
  Speaker 5: the other lesson you learn is make sure you get
• 24:24
  Speaker 5: the footage at the end of the day of every shoot.
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Always clone that hard drive or whatever you're shooting on.
• 24:32
  Speaker 5: Well, also when you're cutting the film. Like, let's say
• 24:36
  Speaker 5: you have the film and you're working with an editor
• 24:38
  Speaker 5: or working with a sound guy or whatever. always have
• 24:41
  Speaker 5: multiple copies of everything, of your dailies, of rough cuts,
• 24:47
  Speaker 5: of everything, so that if there's a problem, if people
• 24:52
  Speaker 5: get busy, there's all sorts of things can happen. The
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: drive could die. I mean, all sorts of things. You
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: just need to cover your bases because you don't want
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: all of this work, labor, money to go out the
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: window with with not covering your bases.
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: You know, something like that happened to me. I actually
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: had an editor. He had all the footage and I
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: kept asking when I could come up there to see
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: this cut of something. And he would always make excuses.
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: And finally, he sends me an email one day and
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: says that his hard drive is dying. And I said, okay.
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: I said, let's just figure this out. And I said,
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: you know, if you need a couple bucks, I will
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: help you out. And Instead, he just keeps telling me
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: that it's not a good time. Well, anyways, the hard
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: drive ends up dying, and basically the project is pretty
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: much at that point gone because our relationship was strained.
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: So everybody on the cast and the crew of this
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: project was like, I hope this editor is going to
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: reimburse you financially for this whole project. And I said,
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: that's a whole other story because... This this editor, you know,
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: was always crying the poor mouth. And I was like,
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: if I sue him, I mean, what am I going
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: to get? OK, well, I'm in the right, but I'm
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: never going to be able to collect. Yeah, I'd rather
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: just have the footage is what I'm trying to say.
• 26:15
  Speaker 5: That's right. That's right. I mean, I mean, you don't
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: want to be in that situation. Well, I mean, a
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: lot of times we learn from those those mistakes, you know,
• 26:23
  Speaker 5: and then we don't ever repeat those those those errors. Um, because, because,
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: I mean, I mean, honestly that, that, I mean, it's,
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: it's also an element of trust. You want to make
• 26:32
  Speaker 5: sure you trust people, but you also want to make
• 26:34
  Speaker 5: sure that there's, um, a paper trail so that, you know,
• 26:40
  Speaker 5: you have an agreement. I mean, even if they're working
• 26:43
  Speaker 5: for free or, or, you know, or, you know, you
• 26:46
  Speaker 5: definitely want, you know, they're working for credits or whatever,
• 26:49
  Speaker 5: you know, you want to make sure that everything's down
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: in paper so that there's, you know, problems are not
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: arise in the future. Yeah.
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: And that is, you know, something that I've learned too.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: I mean, this, this, all these incidents happened like, you know,
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: years ago, you know, when I was basically starting out
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: to when I was, you know, beginner, novice, whatever you
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: want to call it, then, you know, intermediate. But now,
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: you know, now I make people sign a contract that's
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: like as thick as a fucking, you know, phone book. But, um,
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: you know, Jason, you know, I wanted to talk more
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: about your career. Cause you know, you mentioned pedestrian, you
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: mentioned driller, you mentioned seahorses. You went to the film
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: program at the California state university of Northridge. So I
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: wanted to ask, you know, do you feel that film
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: school was worth it for you?
• 27:35
  Speaker 5: I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think that,
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: I think the most things I learned about making films
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: were not in film school. And I learned it from,
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: from being on the set. And, and, and I mean,
• 27:44
  Speaker 5: it really depends. I mean, I think it's, it depends
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: on what, um, what you get out of film school.
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: I mean, I thought the best things I got from
• 27:52
  Speaker 5: Cal state Northridge was I felt like the writing program
• 27:55
  Speaker 5: was great and it was really cool connecting with really
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: interesting professors. I felt like, um, when it comes to
• 28:03
  Speaker 5: actually like making a film, there's nothing like actually being
• 28:06
  Speaker 5: on a set, making a film. I think that's when
• 28:09
  Speaker 5: you really learn, uh, um, uh, diplomacy and working with people, uh,
• 28:16
  Speaker 5: the actual environment of making films in film school generally
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: aren't like the real world per se. And I mean, obviously,
• 28:26
  Speaker 5: you know, connecting with people in school and working with
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: people and making contacts like, I don't know, at USC or,
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: you know, I remember I audited some classes at the
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: American Film Institute and I thought that that was a,
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: seemed like a great program because it was like, you know,
• 28:50
  Speaker 5: a film, film classes taught by like working, you know, filmmakers.
• 28:56
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think that the world now with like podcasts,
• 29:00
  Speaker 5: like your, your, your, your podcast and other podcasts, people
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: can create their own film school by just, you know,
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: learning from people like ourselves, talking about, you know, the
• 29:10
  Speaker 5: craft and then, you know, making their own films or, or,
• 29:15
  Speaker 5: you know, volunteering to be on a film and seeing
• 29:18
  Speaker 5: how it's done. You know, I really feel like the
• 29:22
  Speaker 5: actual craft of filmmaking, you know, I don't know, medium shot,
• 29:25
  Speaker 5: close up, things like that. But that stuff is easy
• 29:28
  Speaker 5: in mathematics. I think the real difficult part is to
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: make something creative and unique and different and compelling and
• 29:35
  Speaker 5: something that hasn't been done before. And I think that's
• 29:38
  Speaker 5: that's what, you know, new filmmakers need to go after
• 29:42
  Speaker 5: and not necessarily just, just the nuts and bolts of, uh,
• 29:45
  Speaker 5: you know, Oh, we'll do this in a master shot
• 29:47
  Speaker 5: and we'll do, we'll, we'll take this as a closeup. Uh,
• 29:50
  Speaker 5: you know, I mean, everyone can, you know, they, you know,
• 29:54
  Speaker 5: you see that everywhere. It's, it's about, you know, people
• 29:58
  Speaker 5: with unique perspectives.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: You know, and pushing out that unique perspective and, you know,
• 30:15
  Speaker 5: hopefully finding something about themselves and other people and also
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: the collaborative experience of working with like uber creative people.
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: I love that. I love the collaborative process of making films.
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: So I don't think that that element is really taught
• 30:32
  Speaker 5: in film school. I think there's more of a view of, oh,
• 30:40
  Speaker 5: we're making a film like a studio. You're the director.
• 30:43
  Speaker 5: You're the cinematographer. In the indie film world, a lot
• 30:47
  Speaker 5: of those lines get blurred.
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: One of the things, I mean, I always ask people
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: who went to film school if it was worth it
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: to them. And there's only been a handful... who've actually said, yes,
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: it was worth it. Everyone else kind of gives an
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: answer like, well, I'm not entirely sure. I study a
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: lot of how colleges work and also about where they
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: pull their curriculum from, where they pull their professors from.
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: Because when I was going to college, that's one of
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: the things I've always wondered. I was like, where do
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: these professors actually come from? So as I see the
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: curriculum being built a lot of the times, Here's the
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: problems that I see. And number one is they hire
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: professors who have a PhD but have no real world experience.
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: So what they do is, you know, they'll graduate with
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: a bachelor's. They go right into the master's program. They
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: go right from the master's program, spending, you know, four
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: or five years, whatever it is, to get a PhD.
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: And then they go right back into the college system
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: to teach from the beginning all over again. but there's
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: never like, Hey, look, I'm going out this weekend. I'm
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: shooting some stuff with some friends. We're going to enter
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: it in the Palookaville film festival. You know, it's just
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: for shits and giggles, but still we're going to make something. And, and,
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: you know, and, and this summer I'm going to write this,
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: this screenplay and I'm going to submit it to the
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: Nicole fellowship. And, you know, if I don't get anywhere
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: with it, at least I wrote, wrote something. I don't
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: see a lot of that from film school professors. It's
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: a lot of like, you know, a lot of theory,
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: which I always sort of cringe at.
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, my experience, there was a lot of
• 32:18
  Speaker 5: tearing down. Like you come up with an idea and
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: then everybody says that idea sucks. You know, sort of
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: the thing where, you know, a lack of understanding the
• 32:29
  Speaker 5: creative process. And I feel like, I feel like, you know, maybe,
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: maybe that's more like the real world where everyone tears
• 32:35
  Speaker 5: you down. I don't know. But, but I just remember,
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: you know, especially, you know, working on films in in college.
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: And I just felt like you do something and then
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: you just have like 15 people tell you it sucks.
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: So it's like, okay, well, you know, this is not
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: a supportive, you know, nurturing environment. You know, I think,
• 32:58
  Speaker 5: I just think that, you know, in life you get what,
• 33:06
  Speaker 5: you know, you give. And the best thing to do
• 33:09
  Speaker 5: is to keep your head up and, You know, if
• 33:12
  Speaker 5: you can be at this great film school, get your
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: hands on incredible gear or an Alexa and learn about,
• 33:19
  Speaker 5: you know, the gear and and maybe be able to
• 33:22
  Speaker 5: work with actors that are very talented or be able
• 33:24
  Speaker 5: to use their facility. you know, maybe, you know, film
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: school is great for you. You've gotten, you know, you'll
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: be able to project and be positivity to it. As
• 33:35
  Speaker 5: per theory, you know, yeah, I mean, you know, it's
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: important to see some of the great films. It's important
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: to understand, you know, I don't know, see the Battleship
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: Potemkin and see things about, you know, film theory. I mean, it's,
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: you know, things that you can read about, you know,
• 33:51
  Speaker 5: in the books as well. Um, you know, so, so,
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: so I, I think it, I think that you can
• 33:56
  Speaker 5: get a lot out of it. I, I always look
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: at things kind of suspiciously too. Like, I mean, we,
• 34:01
  Speaker 5: you know, there's sort of a real proliferation here in LA, uh,
• 34:04
  Speaker 5: with all these like film schools, you know, uh, like
• 34:08
  Speaker 5: almost like they have like two year programs and, you know, and,
• 34:11
  Speaker 5: and in fact, I remember when I was, um, doing
• 34:14
  Speaker 5: discovery for locations, there's this one particular film school that
• 34:18
  Speaker 5: will remain lame nameless that I went, I toured their
• 34:20
  Speaker 5: facility because they, if you hire some of their, um, um,
• 34:26
  Speaker 5: their students, you know, you get their facility for free. And,
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: you know, so I was looking around and I, I,
• 34:31
  Speaker 5: I wasn't happy with what I saw. I sort of
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: started kind of look like a puppy mill for filmmakers,
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: you know? So, you know, I mean, not everyone can
• 34:39
  Speaker 5: be a director, you know, uh, you know, uh, and, uh,
• 34:43
  Speaker 5: it seems like there's really emphasis on, yes, you can
• 34:45
  Speaker 5: be a director. I mean, I, you know, I mean,
• 34:48
  Speaker 5: I understand, you know, and, you know, and I think that,
• 34:52
  Speaker 5: You know, people are born to, you know, certain people
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: are born to lead and tell their stories. And some people,
• 34:58
  Speaker 5: you know, maybe are better at doing other things or
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: bringing their creative impetus to, you know, you know, contributing.
• 35:07
  Speaker 5: But there's definitely an emphasis on, you know, oh, yeah,
• 35:11
  Speaker 5: you're going to be, you know, the next Spielberg or
• 35:13
  Speaker 5: this or that. And I don't know if they necessarily
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: give a real worldview on that. the filmmaking process.
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: You know, that's actually a good idea where you can
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: actually use their facilities if you hire their film students.
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: I never have heard that before, but that's actually a
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: good idea. I know a lot of colleges now, what
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: they try to do is establish relationships with like radio
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: stations or local TV or what have you. And then
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: they do it that way. And one other thing that
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: colleges do that also makes me cringe is they get
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: people who have experience like, a a tv news person
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: and try to have them teach like a filmmaking course
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: and i've actually seen that jason and needless to say
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: it ends pretty badly it doesn't end well for anybody
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: involved and um.
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: Well you know i mean i mean i remember as
• 36:05
  Speaker 5: a student when i was going to school it was
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: very difficult for me to relate to a sort of
• 36:13
  Speaker 5: a career professor i much rather connected with people that
• 36:18
  Speaker 5: had actually made films, you know, and, you know, so
• 36:20
  Speaker 5: we're actually in the business. So, so, and, and there
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: are definitely people that, you know, that don't, that, that,
• 36:27
  Speaker 5: you know, I mean, you know, a lot of professors,
• 36:29
  Speaker 5: you know, they don't put themselves out there for criticism.
• 36:33
  Speaker 5: They don't make their own films. You know, that's, that, that's,
• 36:36
  Speaker 5: you know, I think the essence of being an indie
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: filmmaker is to be fearless about And to put yourself
• 36:43
  Speaker 5: out there and put yourself out there and maybe you
• 36:46
  Speaker 5: get criticized or maybe people tell you, you know, this
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: is bad or, you know, maybe they'll say it's great.
• 36:52
  Speaker 5: You know, I mean, I think that definitely, you know,
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: you have to be fearless. You have to put yourself
• 37:00
  Speaker 5: out there and you have to keep on plugging along.
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: And I like that term, by the way, career professor.
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: And that I'm going to have to add that to
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: my lexicon of words. You know, because, you know, a
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: friend of mine who's a great cinematographer, his name is
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: Rick Webb. Rick was telling me when he was in
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: film school, there was a entertainment lawyer who was also
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: like he was a screenwriter as well. And he actually
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: said he actually said to the class, your ideas are
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: worth a dime, a dozen. But even if I paid
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: a dime, I should deserve change. And I still overpaid.
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: when you were talking about breaking people down, that's, that's
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: one of the things I thought of right away.
• 37:42
  Speaker 5: Well, I mean, I mean, if you want to really
• 37:44
  Speaker 5: step back and I mean, I, I mean, again, another
• 37:46
  Speaker 5: part of my life has been as a writer. In fact,
• 37:48
  Speaker 5: I'm working on some big project right now as a
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: writer and the frustration of working on something that you
• 37:56
  Speaker 5: never know whether or not it's going to be made
• 37:58
  Speaker 5: or not, uh, you know, working really hard, you're creating
• 38:01
  Speaker 5: great ideas, uh, you know, just doing great stuff and,
• 38:05
  Speaker 5: and not realizing maybe it won't see the light of
• 38:08
  Speaker 5: day or, you know, literally producers, you know, thinking that,
• 38:13
  Speaker 5: you know, Oh, well I'll just hire another writer. I'll
• 38:15
  Speaker 5: just hire another writer. So it's in some ways, you know, maybe,
• 38:19
  Speaker 5: maybe that's, that is an element of, of the film
• 38:22
  Speaker 5: industry where, you know, writers are interchangeable, creatives are interchangeable,
• 38:27
  Speaker 5: you know, luckily, you know, You know, I mean, you know,
• 38:30
  Speaker 5: and the indie world, you know, we're creating our own
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: reality and we don't have to, you know, you know,
• 38:37
  Speaker 5: fit into that studio slot. You know, you know, a
• 38:41
  Speaker 5: very wise man who's a friend of mine who is
• 38:46
  Speaker 5: a studio writer. He said something very interesting. It's like
• 38:49
  Speaker 5: it's like the writer who gets the writer that gets
• 38:52
  Speaker 5: credit on a feature is the one that writes or no,
• 38:55
  Speaker 5: the last the last. I'm killing this now. But the last.
• 39:00
  Speaker 5: person to write this, the script or to get credit
• 39:02
  Speaker 5: for the script is, or, or the, Oh, I know
• 39:05
  Speaker 5: the shooting script is written at four in the morning
• 39:10
  Speaker 5: in a hotel room. You know, basically the last writer
• 39:13
  Speaker 5: that gets it is the one that ends up putting
• 39:15
  Speaker 5: it out on the, on the screen. And it just
• 39:18
  Speaker 5: seems like there definitely is, uh, especially with writers, uh, there,
• 39:23
  Speaker 5: there's a lack of, uh, uh, in, in, in, in this, this,
• 39:27
  Speaker 5: I mean, there obviously is definitely people that are well-respected, but,
• 39:30
  Speaker 5: there's definitely an element of not respecting writers or being
• 39:35
  Speaker 5: able to plug other people in or into a thing.
• 39:40
  Speaker 5: I think it also comes with working with formulaic stuff
• 39:42
  Speaker 5: that doesn't have an interesting perspective or something that's, you know,
• 39:46
  Speaker 5: you know, if you're, if you're working on something, that's
• 39:48
  Speaker 5: a big action picture, you know, you have people that,
• 39:50
  Speaker 5: you know, that write a certain, you know, terse certain
• 39:54
  Speaker 5: way that, you know, visually works with that action. And
• 39:58
  Speaker 5: you can basically find someone else that does similar type
• 40:01
  Speaker 5: of work.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 40:12
  Speaker 5: Um, you know, when we're, when we're working with, let's
• 40:14
  Speaker 5: say like, I don't know, elevated horror or working with, uh, uh,
• 40:18
  Speaker 5: you know, art films or films that, you know, festival
• 40:21
  Speaker 5: films or, or films that, you know, have a certain
• 40:24
  Speaker 5: interesting perspective, then you're working with people that, you know,
• 40:28
  Speaker 5: you can't replace because they have a singular view and, and, uh,
• 40:34
  Speaker 5: you know, and, and it's beautiful and special instead of
• 40:37
  Speaker 5: maybe let's say, you know, okay, this is where, you know,
• 40:40
  Speaker 5: everything blows up, you know, this is where, you know,
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: I don't know, the, you know, Iron Man, you know,
• 40:46
  Speaker 5: kicks shit out, you know, you know, away from everyone.
• 40:48
  Speaker 5: I don't know. So, so, you know, I think that
• 40:51
  Speaker 5: there are definitely, I've felt the tide of, you know,
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: being in that world where, you know, you're working on
• 41:00
  Speaker 5: something and you feel like, oh, well, you know, it
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: could be me, but it could be somebody else. And
• 41:05
  Speaker 5: I'm just going to keep, you know, if I'm getting
• 41:07
  Speaker 5: paid X amount of dollars, I'll just keep on working
• 41:10
  Speaker 5: and presenting my work. If they like it, they'll like it.
• 41:13
  Speaker 5: If not, you know, it'll be rewritten again. You know,
• 41:15
  Speaker 5: I mean, how many times do studio scripts get rewritten
• 41:18
  Speaker 5: over and over again by multiple writers and most of
• 41:21
  Speaker 5: them don't get credit?
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, very true. Very true, my friend. And I wanted
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: to ask you, speaking of this whole writing process, you know,
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: you've written all the movies that you've directed.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: And I wanted to ask, you know, What exactly, you know,
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: is your writing process, Jason? You know, do you subscribe?
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: I mean, do you outline a lot? Do you subscribe,
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: you know, to the whole save the cat method or not?
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: You know, so, you know, if you could take us
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: through your writing process.
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: Well, I like cats, you know, they're nice.
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: Well, again, again, I mean, I don't know.
• 41:53
  Speaker 5: I mean, I remember I remember being really focused in
• 41:56
  Speaker 5: on on Sid Field. And I just, I like the
• 42:00
  Speaker 5: idea of plot points and, and the idea that where
• 42:04
  Speaker 5: the action gets swung in different directions. And, and I
• 42:07
  Speaker 5: remember I did a lot of writing when I was younger,
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: you know, and just constant, like, like, like really rating,
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: like mainstream, you know, you know, three act structure. I
• 42:17
  Speaker 5: don't know. Sometimes they say they act structure. I mean, I, whatever,
• 42:20
  Speaker 5: but the three act structure situation. And a lot of times,
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: like when you're working on TV and, there's a very,
• 42:27
  Speaker 5: very focused structure you're working with where you're writing into
• 42:32
  Speaker 5: commercial breaks. So definitely everything has a certain structure. That's
• 42:36
  Speaker 5: why everything starts to look the same. When I was
• 42:42
  Speaker 5: focused in on seahorses, I mean, obviously I was thinking
• 42:47
  Speaker 5: about an act structure, but I wasn't focused on the
• 42:50
  Speaker 5: act structure. I think it was more important to create moments,
• 42:56
  Speaker 5: And then once you have a certain beat and a
• 43:01
  Speaker 5: certain element, there comes a time, kind of in a
• 43:05
  Speaker 5: more organic way of swinging the action into a different place,
• 43:11
  Speaker 5: like creating a problem right from the get-go, okay? And
• 43:15
  Speaker 5: then making the problem shift into something else and And,
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: you know, I mean, I think Seahorses is an interesting
• 43:23
  Speaker 5: film because it sort of has a dual protagonist situation. So,
• 43:28
  Speaker 5: you know, I'm sort of working with two different plot
• 43:32
  Speaker 5: lines that sort of collide. You know, I'm a big
• 43:37
  Speaker 5: proponent of like sort of writing, creating sort of an outline.
• 43:42
  Speaker 5: So I sort of understand the scripts. The outline is
• 43:44
  Speaker 5: sort of a script outline. So the script is actually
• 43:47
  Speaker 5: much shorter. And then I continually add. to it and
• 43:51
  Speaker 5: then rewrite and rewrite until everything sort of filled out. And,
• 43:57
  Speaker 5: you know, and I usually write to a theme. I mean,
• 44:00
  Speaker 5: a seahorse is a theme was coping with loss, you know,
• 44:05
  Speaker 5: and the idea that, you know, how, you know, broken
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: people can meet each other and sort of, you know,
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: create hope. And I think, you know, working in kind
• 44:22
  Speaker 5: of an organic way and not necessarily setting everything down
• 44:27
  Speaker 5: in concrete allows the characters sort of to guide you
• 44:33
  Speaker 5: through the process. You know, so in some ways.
• 44:39
  Speaker 5: The characters become much stronger than, I don't know, let's
• 44:43
  Speaker 5: say a godlike screenwriter that says, okay, this is where
• 44:48
  Speaker 5: the character cuts their hair and grabs a gun and
• 44:50
  Speaker 5: starts shooting people. Instead of doing that, it's like, well,
• 44:54
  Speaker 5: why would they go ahead and do those things? What
• 44:56
  Speaker 5: would lead to this character to do these things? So
• 45:01
  Speaker 5: it's a relationship to plot and character at the same time.
• 45:05
  Speaker 5: I don't know if I'm talking in circles, but that's
• 45:07
  Speaker 5: how I write. I write in circles and then I
• 45:10
  Speaker 5: continually edit so that everything is sort of tight.
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: So how quickly do you usually just, you know, get
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: out that first draft?
• 45:20
  Speaker 5: I mean, it really depends on what I'm working on.
• 45:22
  Speaker 5: I mean, I have a lot of irons in the fire,
• 45:25
  Speaker 5: so I'm definitely, you know, working on a lot of
• 45:30
  Speaker 5: different things. But I mean, if I was just focused
• 45:32
  Speaker 5: on one screenplay, I mean, I probably could write whatever,
• 45:36
  Speaker 5: I don't know whether vomit draft, I guess they call it, uh,
• 45:39
  Speaker 5: in like about a month. Um, and then, you know,
• 45:43
  Speaker 5: I like putting it away and then bringing it back.
• 45:48
  Speaker 5: If I have the time, you know, obviously, you know,
• 45:49
  Speaker 5: on deadlines and things like that, you have to just
• 45:51
  Speaker 5: keep on rewriting. And, um, but, but I generally like
• 45:54
  Speaker 5: working with a, a fresh mind and then being able
• 45:58
  Speaker 5: to go back to it and, you know, edit and
• 46:01
  Speaker 5: change and, and, and develop, uh, you know, the, the, the,
• 46:05
  Speaker 5: the characters and, and, and, and, and, uh, clean up, uh, certain,
• 46:11
  Speaker 5: you know, character points and story points. Um, I, I
• 46:15
  Speaker 5: don't know. I mean, I think that, you know, certain
• 46:19
  Speaker 5: people are natural storytellers. I feel like I do really
• 46:23
  Speaker 5: know how to set up a story and I know
• 46:25
  Speaker 5: how to tell a story. And, uh, I think that's
• 46:28
  Speaker 5: one of the strong points in, in, in, in, in my,
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: in my talents. So, um, you know, and I definitely
• 46:37
  Speaker 5: think that the rewriting process for me is very important.
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: The vomit draft, I've learned how important that actually is.
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: It's important just to get your entire story in script format.
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: And it doesn't, it's not obviously going to be the
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: same because obviously it's going to go through countless revisions
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: and what have you. But just to get one particular
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: way of telling this story out, even if it's, you know,
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: with crappy dialogue, bland characters and, You know, it just
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: getting that out is the most important thing because the
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: worst thing you can do is revise while you're writing.
• 47:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I also think the characters to me is very important.
• 47:13
  Speaker 5: I mean, everybody has a different process, but to me,
• 47:16
  Speaker 5: character is really important. And before I even start, I
• 47:19
  Speaker 5: figure like, what is my character's name? What are they
• 47:22
  Speaker 5: kind of dressed like? What do they do? What do
• 47:25
  Speaker 5: they drink for coffee? I mean, all these little weird
• 47:27
  Speaker 5: little messed up details to me are very, very important.
• 47:31
  Speaker 5: And before I start, I need to know about all
• 47:34
  Speaker 5: the little idiosyncrasies that the character has before I go ahead.
• 47:39
  Speaker 5: And I think that also the interesting thing we did
• 47:44
  Speaker 5: with Seahorses, which was kind of different process-wise, was I
• 47:48
  Speaker 5: brought my actors in and I learned about my actors.
• 47:52
  Speaker 5: And then I started to rewrite to the actors' backgrounds.
• 47:59
  Speaker 5: And so it was really interesting, like, In fact, Justine Washberger,
• 48:03
  Speaker 5: my lead actress, she's French. And I had this idea,
• 48:08
  Speaker 5: you know, there was kind of some scenes that she
• 48:10
  Speaker 5: had with her brother. You don't know where's her... Oh, well,
• 48:13
  Speaker 5: there's another interesting thing I want to talk about storytelling
• 48:15
  Speaker 5: as well, which I think is interesting with seahorses. But
• 48:19
  Speaker 5: we decided to actually do scenes in French. And we
• 48:24
  Speaker 5: cast an actor to play her brother to speak in French.
• 48:26
  Speaker 5: And I think it adds an interesting element and texture
• 48:29
  Speaker 5: to the film. Um, but, but it was, it was
• 48:33
  Speaker 5: kind of the, the, the, the tail, the tail wagging
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: the dog, but it was also, it seemed right. And,
• 48:39
  Speaker 5: and working with actors were, was sort of a workshopping
• 48:44
  Speaker 5: the script was able to actually make a stronger piece. Um,
• 48:48
  Speaker 5: the other interesting thing, you know, that, that, that I
• 48:50
  Speaker 5: love about writing is it's not what you tell, it's
• 48:55
  Speaker 5: what you don't tell. And I think that that's, especially
• 48:59
  Speaker 5: with the last film I did, I feel like that's
• 49:04
  Speaker 5: part of this storytelling. It's like you have characters and
• 49:07
  Speaker 5: you have certain expectations of how they are, but you
• 49:10
  Speaker 5: don't know about them. And then eventually they do something
• 49:13
  Speaker 5: that surprise you. And in some ways, that's more important than.
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: um.
• 49:21
  Speaker 5: Revealing character sometimes is part of the plot and finding
• 49:27
  Speaker 5: out about this character is is sometimes more important than
• 49:30
  Speaker 5: something you know the car crash or something you find
• 49:34
  Speaker 5: out more interesting things about the character i mean i
• 49:36
  Speaker 5: remember like uh You know, the big, you know, I
• 49:39
  Speaker 5: don't know, Mad Men. You're talking about, you know, the
• 49:41
  Speaker 5: pilot episode where you find out that Don Draper is
• 49:44
  Speaker 5: actually married with kids, you know, with kids. And you
• 49:47
  Speaker 5: think that he's this big single guy. And that revelation
• 49:51
  Speaker 5: sort of pushed everyone to a different level because you
• 49:55
  Speaker 5: have a certain idea of how this character is.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 50:08
  Speaker 5: And then everything goes 180 degree turn. It's not necessarily
• 50:12
  Speaker 5: a plot thing, but you kind of blow people's minds
• 50:17
  Speaker 5: with revelations about characters that everybody knows about when you're
• 50:24
  Speaker 5: making it, but you reveal it to the audience.
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: I concur. I think character is so important. Like the
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: Hateful Eight, for instance. you know, when that came out,
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: you know, obviously Tarantino did a lot of interviews for that.
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: And that was the one thing that he was always
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: mentioning was, you know, character is the most important thing. And,
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: you know, every screenwriter that I sort of, you know,
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: want to emulate, that is something that they've also echoed
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: was that, you know, it all starts with character. Basically,
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: you know, who is this character? You know, what kind
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: of world are they living in? And it's sort of like,
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: you know, Like, for instance, the Coen brothers, Big Lebowski,
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: he's kind of in his own little world. And, you know,
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: and he has this crazy, his two crazy friends. And
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: it gets that whole, you know, kidnapping plot. And, you know,
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: it all starts off because some guy pees on his rug.
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: You know, so it's just some, you know, again, that's
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: all from character because, you know, his character went after
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: the other Lebowski and that's how they sort of connected.
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: But I agree with you, Jason. I think character is
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: very important. And just to go back to what we
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: were talking about before, I think concept is very important
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: as well. Just taking different screenwriting courses, I've learned that
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: brainstorming that initial concept allows you to sort of pull
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: different scenarios from that as well.
• 51:42
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, it's interesting. You talk about concept. I
• 51:44
  Speaker 5: think also it reflects also sort of a style, technique,
• 51:50
  Speaker 5: different things. The reason why my film is called Seahorses is...
• 51:56
  Speaker 5: Because the main character has a tank of seahorses in
• 51:59
  Speaker 5: their room. So you see seahorses. And then also the
• 52:05
  Speaker 5: whole concept that these two main characters are like seahorses.
• 52:08
  Speaker 5: They're adrift. They're floating around. They're awkward creatures. And also
• 52:16
  Speaker 5: when we shot the film, when we're shooting our actors,
• 52:20
  Speaker 5: production design, we used... uh, water motifs. We shot with
• 52:26
  Speaker 5: lighting with black light. So we lit the actors like
• 52:28
  Speaker 5: they were underwater. So thematically concept wise, uh, uh, the
• 52:34
  Speaker 5: way we shot it was sort of, you know, you know,
• 52:36
  Speaker 5: you know, everything, everything, all these different layers led to
• 52:39
  Speaker 5: the fact that this film was called seahorses. These, these,
• 52:43
  Speaker 5: the main, there's a one major scene where the, the,
• 52:46
  Speaker 5: you know, the, the, the, our main character talks about
• 52:49
  Speaker 5: the seahorses in the, in this tank. And, And you
• 52:52
  Speaker 5: sort of realize how broken and messed up these people are.
• 52:55
  Speaker 5: But again, it's not any one thing. It's all these
• 53:01
  Speaker 5: things through production design, through lighting, through camera choices, through performance,
• 53:07
  Speaker 5: through script, through all these different levels promote and serve
• 53:15
  Speaker 5: the major story theme concept.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: That is something too, when you're building a team, making sure,
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: you know, you have, you know, a good production designer,
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: you know, have a good, you know, who can make
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: the set actually look alive, make it look, you know,
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: lived in. You know, when I was shooting my TV pilot,
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: we actually, I made sure to get a good set,
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: you know, make sure the set dressing was phenomenal. And,
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: you know, some of the stuff, I mean, you know,
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: part of it was him, part of it was me
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: because I went to a blockbuster and a Eckert's drugs
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: that was going out of business. And I virtually bought
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: tons of like, Um, standees. I bought like registers. I
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: bought the free, I bought the actual, I bought, I
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: bought the actual, uh, uh, we'll tell you counter the
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: counter of the echo drug. I actually bought that. And, uh,
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: we ended up, you and I also bought the one
• 54:02
  Speaker 4: from blockbuster, but I mean, we, we all came together
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: and I mean, my gut, it looked like an actual,
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: you know, living store.
• 54:08
  Speaker 5: That's like, that's like you get to a point where
• 54:10
  Speaker 5: you go, you get, you're, you're, you're examining a set
• 54:13
  Speaker 5: and like you do anything, but you can't paint the walls. Like, okay, well,
• 54:17
  Speaker 5: you know, all right. Well, I'm not shooting here if
• 54:19
  Speaker 5: I can't paint the walls. Like, or you say, well,
• 54:21
  Speaker 5: can I put wallpaper up? We'll fix it. You know,
• 54:24
  Speaker 5: we'll repaint. But I mean, literally, if you can't paint
• 54:28
  Speaker 5: the walls, don't shoot there.
• 54:30
  Speaker 4: I mean, that's.
• 54:32
  Speaker 5: You know, because that was the thing. I mean, that
• 54:37
  Speaker 5: when you're making a film, you want the film to
• 54:39
  Speaker 5: look like a real film. You don't want to use...
• 54:43
  Speaker 5: You make it look, oh, well, we borrow. I mean, obviously,
• 54:45
  Speaker 5: I understand. Maybe you don't have the resources. Maybe you
• 54:48
  Speaker 5: can't paint the walls. Okay, I understand that. But if
• 54:51
  Speaker 5: you want to go the extra mile, you want your
• 54:53
  Speaker 5: film to look like a real film, you have to
• 54:56
  Speaker 5: make certain efforts. You have to put money into the
• 54:59
  Speaker 5: budget for production design. A lot of people are like,
• 55:03
  Speaker 5: you know, literally they'll say, oh, here's $ 300 and they
• 55:05
  Speaker 5: give their, you know, do your wonder. And I'm like, okay, well,
• 55:08
  Speaker 5: that's why all they did was put some fabric on
• 55:10
  Speaker 5: the wall. You know, literally they only had $ 3 to set,
• 55:14
  Speaker 5: to dress that set. You know, I mean, I mean,
• 55:17
  Speaker 5: obviously you need to work with professionals, but you also
• 55:20
  Speaker 5: have to give those professionals the tools so they can sing.
• 55:23
  Speaker 5: And so they can realize, you know, your vision. And
• 55:27
  Speaker 5: so I think that's important too, to make sure that,
• 55:29
  Speaker 5: you know, you have an understanding that, you know, stuff
• 55:32
  Speaker 5: costs money and, and you gotta, if you want, you know,
• 55:36
  Speaker 5: you want your thing to look great, you know, you, well,
• 55:38
  Speaker 5: you can borrow, you can do lots of different resourceful things.
• 55:41
  Speaker 5: I mean, obviously, you know, it was a good thing
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: that all those blockbusters went out of business. So you could, uh,
• 55:47
  Speaker 5: you can buy, buy all their furnishings.
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: I bought, uh, like tons of backs of, uh, of
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: like the, of the movies and stuff. And somebody actually
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: went through and doctored a lot of them up. Um,
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: I mean, it was just like everything you could think of.
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: I mean, that blockbuster, uh, I bought the open and
• 56:02
  Speaker 4: closing sign, uh, you know, and like the neon, I
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: got that for like $ 10 a piece. And I looked
• 56:08
  Speaker 4: it up online and they're like, they were going for
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: like three, four or 500 bucks. I mean, it was just,
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: it was a phenomenal, it was like serendipitous that I
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: was in the right place at the right time with
• 56:18
  Speaker 4: the right need.
• 56:19
  Speaker 5: Well, yeah, the other thing too is, you know, I, I, I,
• 56:23
  Speaker 5: you know, it shows you the true spirit of a
• 56:24
  Speaker 5: filmmaker who's like, look, look, any means let's go ahead
• 56:28
  Speaker 5: and get this and get that. And, and, and, uh,
• 56:30
  Speaker 5: you know, being able to, you know, you know, it's
• 56:36
  Speaker 5: interesting too. The one thing I also learned is people
• 56:38
  Speaker 5: don't understand, like you could be moving those standees and
• 56:42
  Speaker 5: you could like break your toe. You could, you know, break,
• 56:45
  Speaker 5: you know, smash your finger. You can like go through
• 56:47
  Speaker 5: the wall. You could, you know, you know, you store
• 56:50
  Speaker 5: it somewhere and they can complain and, Nobody sees that
• 56:53
  Speaker 5: when you make the film. They just see the stuff.
• 56:56
  Speaker 5: Nobody sees the pain and suffering. They just see the art.
• 56:59
  Speaker 5: And that's what's cool. I mean, that's what makes us artists.
• 57:02
  Speaker 5: You know, it's like literally we're, you know, creating our
• 57:06
  Speaker 5: own world and all the pain and suffering, complaining, people
• 57:10
  Speaker 5: holding us hostage, whatever. All that goes away because people
• 57:13
  Speaker 5: don't see that. They see what we show them. You're right, though.
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: It's that things like, you know, when you're more moving
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: things or that sort of thing, when you break a toe. Yeah.
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: I've had friends who make films and every time they
• 57:25
  Speaker 4: make one, they always get sick. Regardless of whatever their
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: crew position is, they will always get sick before. And
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: maybe they start feeling a little better while filming or
• 57:37
  Speaker 4: they get sick at the end. And it's always the same.
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: And I'm always like, isn't that a little odd that
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: they always get sick right when they're filming something?
• 57:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, maybe it's just the stress.
• 57:49
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's a high stress situation. thing. And, uh,
• 57:53
  Speaker 5: you know, I think I was sick the, when we started, uh,
• 57:56
  Speaker 5: the last one. And I mean, it's just, I, it's
• 57:58
  Speaker 5: just a way that I, you know, drink a lot
• 58:00
  Speaker 5: of fluids and just do it. You know, I mean,
• 58:03
  Speaker 5: the nice thing about making an indie film is we
• 58:05
  Speaker 5: shoot them in such short number of days. Eventually it's over,
• 58:09
  Speaker 5: it's over, it's over a lot faster than like, you know,
• 58:11
  Speaker 5: the big budget films where people are like stuck with
• 58:14
  Speaker 5: each other for six months. Yeah.
• 58:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So, you know, uh, I wanted to... We've talked
• 58:21
  Speaker 4: about this briefly, but I want to talk about your movie, Seahorses.
• 58:24
  Speaker 4: It won Best Screenplay at the LA Indie Film Festival,
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: won Best Actor at the SoCal Film Festival, Best Actress
• 58:30
  Speaker 4: and Best Actor at the LA Indie Film Festival, and
• 58:33
  Speaker 4: Cinematography at the SoCal International Film Festival. So basically, I
• 58:37
  Speaker 4: wanted to ask, how did you put all this together?
• 58:40
  Speaker 4: We've already talked about you wrote the screenplay, but... And
• 58:45
  Speaker 4: you also directed this, but, you know, I wanted to ask,
• 58:47
  Speaker 4: you know, did you self fund this? Did you find
• 58:49
  Speaker 4: funding through crowdfunding? So, you know, how did you sort
• 58:52
  Speaker 4: of put this together? Yeah, yeah.
• 58:53
  Speaker 5: I mean, and again, you know, yeah, great, great acting.
• 58:56
  Speaker 5: We won, like, all these different facets of awards. In fact,
• 58:59
  Speaker 5: we won Best Picture at Seattle Transmedia and Best of
• 59:04
  Speaker 5: Fest at SoCal Film Festival and Toronto Indie. So, you know,
• 59:08
  Speaker 5: we we've done really well um i think that um
• 59:12
  Speaker 5: i mean i basically self-funded the film myself it was
• 59:15
  Speaker 5: a passion film it was something that i knew that
• 59:18
  Speaker 5: it was very very close to to me So, you know,
• 59:23
  Speaker 5: you know, money that I made, you know, you know,
• 59:26
  Speaker 5: do it, you know, hustling and working on other projects. And,
• 59:31
  Speaker 5: you know, I basically put into this film. So, you know,
• 59:36
  Speaker 5: and I feel like that's why the film is so
• 59:40
  Speaker 5: personal and that's why the film was so well received.
• 59:42
  Speaker 5: I feel like, you know, it's a personal statement that,
• 59:45
  Speaker 5: you know, when I was making it and writing it,
• 59:48
  Speaker 5: I was like, I don't even care if anyone sees
• 59:49
  Speaker 5: I'm just making it for me.
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 5: You know, and and, you know, I've been very fortunate
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 5: that a lot of people have shared the film and
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 5: have enjoyed the film. The film was played in like,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 5: I don't know, Toronto, Sydney, Australia. We played at first
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 5: glance in Philly. where you're from. You know, we played
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 5: a lot in LA. We played in Seattle twice. You know,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 5: it's great that people have enjoyed the film. And, you know,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 5: and I'm also very happy to share the film because
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 5: right now we just got on, we're on iTunes, Google
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 5: Play and Amazon Instant. And, you know, you can go
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 5: ahead and check out the film. I think it's a
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 5: good film for people that are involved in indie film
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 5: to see what you can do for very little. It's
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 5: a very small film, but it's amazing. I mean, we
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 5: played a beach in Hawaii, you know, with films with,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 5: I don't know, 10 times the budget, you know, because
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 5: it's a special little film. Everybody involved worked on it
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 5: for all the right reasons. And it really worked out well.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 5: I'm very pleased with the end result. And I always
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 5: tell filmmakers to follow their passion and not necessarily look
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 5: so cynically. Oh, well, talking dog movies are big right now.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 5: I'm going to make a talking dog movie. Make something
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 5: you're passionate about. It takes years sometimes to make films.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 5: And if you follow your passion, you'll be much happier.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: I concur, Jason. I think, as I was saying before,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 4: that's something that a couple years ago, I knew what
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 4: my passion was, but there's a jump, there's a leap
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 4: that I was sort of stuck on making, if you
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 4: know what I mean. I knew I could see the
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 4: landing zone, so to speak, but I didn't want to
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: make that jump. Because, you know, it takes a lot
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 4: of effort to make that jump. And sometimes, you know,
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 4: you mentally psych yourself out.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 5: That's right.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, you mentioned the First Glance Film Festival.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 4: Bill Ostroff, I don't know if you got to meet him,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 4: but I always see Bill on social media. He's always
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: tweeting out a ton of stuff. And I always hear
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 4: good things about the First Glance Film Festival.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Bill's great. And yeah, no, no. In fact, he's
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 5: based here in L.A. You know, they have First Glance L.A.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 5: and First Glance Philly. And, you know, it's really interesting
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 5: when when you get I visit probably another told podcast
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 5: situation or another another subject. But when it comes to
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 5: film festivals, I mean, you get a lot from different
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 5: film festivals. And and with first glance, you know, he
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 5: you know, he supports the films and it's a lot
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 5: about Twitter. Uh, and, uh, you're, you know, you're, it's
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 5: almost a ride, you know, you know, leading up to
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 5: the film is just as great as the film festival
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 5: because you really promote, everyone's promoting each other and there's
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 5: a real camaraderie with filmmakers and connecting with other people
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 5: through via, via, via social media and via Twitter. And
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 5: I know with, um, uh, this film festival, we premiered
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 5: at dances with films in LA. Uh, it was a
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 5: lot about, uh, you know, Facebook and, and pushing things
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 5: out with Facebook. And so, you know, it's like each
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 5: film festival sort of has an, uh, uh, a tone
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 5: it sets for, for, you know, where, where the social media,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 5: you know, your works with. And, and, and in some
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 5: ways you get kind of a, I mean, for me,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 5: it was like a, uh, each, each festival, I learned
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 5: a new facet about, you know, promoting work and getting
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 5: people excited about your product and, and, uh, uh, And
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 5: I feel like first glance is a very well programmed festival.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 5: I mean, and, and, you know, and, and, you know, I,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 5: I only submitted to festivals that I, that, that had
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 5: been around a long time and I felt like would
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 5: be good showcase for, for the film. And, you know, we,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 5: we did, we did great. We had great experience. Eventually
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 5: film festivals started inviting us to, to, you know, and
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 5: paying our expenses to get, get to these festivals. So, so,
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 5: you know, things really worked out with this film and, and,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 5: and I'm, I'm very pleased to share the film.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: Everyone, I will also link to Seahorses on iTunes, as
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: Jason said. You know, Jason, I was actually just remarking
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 4: to another filmmaker that, you know, getting on iTunes, getting
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 4: your film on iTunes is a huge endeavor. So congratulations
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 4: on that.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah. And the film, I mean, I basically self-distributed.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 5: I mean, we had offers for distribution, but I mean,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 5: I didn't want to sign the rights of my film
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 5: away for like 10 years. And I mean, when you
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 5: say endeavor, I think it has to do with just
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 5: making sure your film's right technically. If you're working with
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 5: an aggregator, you just have to make sure that your
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 5: film's closed captioned properly and that the technical specs are there.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 5: It is a process, but you can get your film
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 5: up there. The real challenge is to get people to
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 5: see your film. You can get your film up there,
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 5: but the real challenge is to be uh, you know,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 5: part of the conversation and, and, and to get people
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 5: inspired to see the film. And that, I think that's
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 5: the big challenge because, uh, a lot of these aggregators
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 5: are like, I don't know, UPS, they just deliver the film.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 5: They're not going to promote your film. That's up to
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 5: the filmmaker.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 4: It's like they say, it's now war, uh, not to
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 4: get your film made, but it's now war to get
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 4: your film scene. So it's just a war of eyeballs
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: and ears. I mean, even in the podcasting world, it's like,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 4: you know, and now it's.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 5: A war of ears. Well, you're winning the war of ears, Dave.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 5: On that note, I've got to get out of here.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 5: But I have something at 6.30.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 4: So, I mean, L.A.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 5: Time.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: See, we're just rocking and rolling with this podcast. Time
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 4: has just flown by. It's flown by.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 5: It's great. Oh, and also, I've got a newly minted website.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 5: It's jasoncartallion.com. if you want to check that out. I
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 5: used advice that I learned on the Dave Bullis podcast
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 5: that I should definitely put my stake down. And I
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 5: went ahead and also check out the blogs because I
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 5: have two interesting blogs. One's about tips to getting your
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 5: film in festivals. And the other one is questions you
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 5: need to ask yourself before you put your project together.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 5: And one has to do with, you know, of having
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 5: a finished film and being a filmmaker. And one has
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 5: to do with my experience as a distributor, which, uh,
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 5: that's something we didn't really talk about too much, but, uh, uh,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 5: you know, I've, I've worked in international distribution for many,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 5: many years, uh, and, uh, uh, selling movies, uh, around
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 5: the world to various territories. So, uh, uh, check out,
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 5: it's just spelled like my name, Jason K R T
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 5: A L I N.com and, uh, check it out. And, uh, uh, again,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 5: I really appreciate you, uh, uh, letting me on your podcast.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 5: I think you're doing a great job, Dave. And I
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 5: really enjoy what you're doing. And, um, uh, I think
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 5: I I'm, I'm, I'm humble to be a part of this.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 4: Oh, Jason, thank you so much for all the kind words.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 4: And I'm glad, you know, my, you're, you heard my
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: advice of putting the stake down in the ground. Uh,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 4: cause I, I had a friend of mine who didn't
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 4: want to listen to me. So I went ahead and
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 4: I bought his I bought his website that he could
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 4: have had. And I said, you see, if I wasn't
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 4: your friend, I could have just taken this. So I
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 4: ended up giving it to him, obviously. But I was
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: trying to make a point that if you don't have it,
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 4: somebody could just come by and snap it up. And
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 4: that's what has been going on with these patent trolls
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 4: and these people who are like these website squatters, whatever
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 4: you want to call it. It's just, you know, to
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 4: avoid all of that. Even if you do nothing with it,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: or do you know what I mean? Or even redirect
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 4: it to a Twitter account or something. Just so you
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 4: have it.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's lucky that I'm not famous enough that someone
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 5: didn't steal my dot com.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 4: I mean, you have a Wikipedia, which is actually pretty cool.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah. I had to kill for that. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 4: I was like, wow, Jason's got a Wikipedia?
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 5: Damn.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 4: So I'm going to link to the Wikipedia also. And Jason,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 4: I want to say thank you so much for coming on. Jason...
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: Thanks again for coming on, sir.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 5: Thank you so much, Dave.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 4: Take care, buddy.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 5: Cool. Bye. Bye-bye.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 3: I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 3: a great job on this episode. If you want to
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com forward slash 873.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: And if you haven't already, please head over to filmmakingpodcast.com.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: Subscribe and leave a good review.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: For the show. It really helps us out a lot, guys.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: Thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always,
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. Stay safe
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: out there, and I'll talk to you soon.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. at IndieFilmHustle.com.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: That's I-N-D-I-E-F-I-L-M-H-U-S-T-L-E.com.