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Savannah Guthrie Mom Missing: Neighbor Speaks Out · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing one of her neighbors,
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Speaker 2: joins us to tell us his recollection of what went
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Speaker 2: down that night and of his recollection of Missus Guthrie herself.
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Speaker 2: Also tonight mysterious ridges scene in the front of Nancy
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Speaker 2: Guthrie's yard, What if anything do they mean and were
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Speaker 2: they preserved this as a careful look at the porch
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Speaker 2: guy video? Does it reveal headlights over his shoulder? And
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Speaker 2: tonight was a luck pick or a luck pick gun
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Speaker 2: used to penetrate Nancy Guthrie's home and can we analyze
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Speaker 2: that and use it as evidence? Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
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Speaker 2: being with us. The FEDS are now trying to question
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Speaker 2: work crews on a construction site.
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Speaker 3: People just don't go in there and randomly dump stuff.
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Speaker 3: They do have the thing broken up into grids. You
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Speaker 3: have equipment that runs over the stuff to kind of
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Speaker 3: pack it down, and that creates an absolute nightmare for
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Speaker 3: investigators when they go out there to begin to search.
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Speaker 2: I'm very anxious to get to the ridges that were
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Speaker 2: seen in front of Nancy Guthries home. Can I just
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Speaker 2: see that very quickly? Please control room as well as
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Speaker 2: what's revealed by a careful look at the porch guy
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Speaker 2: lights possibly headlights over his shoulder. But first I want
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Speaker 2: to go to a special guest joining us, a neighbor
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Speaker 2: of Nancy Guthries. It's Jeff Lemie who woke up that
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Speaker 2: night in the early morning hours and he very often
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Speaker 2: passes Missus Guthrie on their neighborhoods strolls. Mister, let me
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Speaker 2: thank you for being with.
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Speaker 4: Us, for sure, for sure glad to be here.
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Speaker 2: I you know what, I'm so glad you said that,
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Speaker 2: because in my world of investigating and prosecuting nothing but
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Speaker 2: violent felonies for so many years, you wouldn't believe it.
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Speaker 2: Mister le me of how many people quote don't want
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Speaker 2: to get involved, they don't come forward, they don't say anything,
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Speaker 2: and they feel okay with that. I will never understand it. First,
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Speaker 2: I'm sure the FBI has quizzed you extensively, but I
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Speaker 2: just want to hear at the beginning of your encounters
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Speaker 2: with Missus Guthrie, when you would both be out strolling
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Speaker 2: the neighborhood.
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Speaker 4: We would see her when we were walking our dogs.
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Speaker 4: She had a dog at one time, all so and
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Speaker 4: greet her. She was just a person who lived here,
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Speaker 4: a pleasant, wonderful neighbor. And we're so saddened. Of course,
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Speaker 4: saddened isn't even the word A heartbroken about what's happened.
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Speaker 2: I guess you're also fed up with the ghules showing
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Speaker 2: up in your neighborhood in hotpants and stripper sas to
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Speaker 2: take photos in front of Missus Guthrie's home. It's sick.
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Speaker 2: But before I go off on a tangent that gets
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Speaker 2: me nowhere and improves nothing that night, Jeff let me
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Speaker 2: that night what happened.
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Speaker 4: Well, preceding the event, there were some evenings where our
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Speaker 4: dogs woke up, which was highly unusual. We don't know
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Speaker 4: if there's a correlation. I know the FBI and the
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Speaker 4: investigators have asked for cameras and camera footage. All the
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Speaker 4: neighbors have shared camera footage and any recollection they have.
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Speaker 4: But the next day we were surprise when there were
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Speaker 4: helicopters above flying through the neighborhood. A large response of
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Speaker 4: Sheriff's Department, a volunteer crew of community members who do
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Speaker 4: rescue in the mountains of hikers who came and scoured
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Speaker 4: the neighborhood, and initially we were wondering what was going on,
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Speaker 4: and then we found out it was our neighbor, which
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Speaker 4: obviously is horrible.
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Speaker 2: You stated that you live four homes down from Missus Guthrie.
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Speaker 2: Is that correct?
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Speaker 4: Yes?
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Speaker 2: Okay, Now your dogs often ases mine want to go
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Speaker 2: out in the middle of the night Dee's bathroom that night,
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Speaker 2: did your dog go out?
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Speaker 4: Yeah, that was where Actually I sort of one of
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Speaker 4: our dogs I have the rows in the morning, is
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Speaker 4: a deep sleeper. There were some nights in question where
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Speaker 4: the investigators have asked us about certain evenings and if
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Speaker 4: we've seen anything unusual and once it could be coincidence,
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Speaker 4: it could be nothing. I'm not an investigator, I'm a
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Speaker 4: lay person. But the dogs did rouse and I took
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Speaker 4: them out. There's an image of me on camera. I
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Speaker 4: did heart nothing or saw nothing. But you know, animals
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Speaker 4: can be especially dogs can be hyper sensitive, and we
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Speaker 4: don't know if there's a correlation. We've shared it and
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Speaker 4: whether it helps with timeline or in any way, we
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Speaker 4: hope it is of some value.
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Speaker 2: What time was that, Jeff le me, gosh.
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Speaker 4: It was I'm working from memory. It may have been
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Speaker 4: a little bit past one am.
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Speaker 2: You know, Jeff, let me you really hit the nail
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Speaker 2: on the head, because after everything calms down at night
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Speaker 2: and everything settles and the kitchen is clean, We'll be
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Speaker 2: sitting there, you know, watching something on TV maybe and
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Speaker 2: our dog fat Boy will go insane and then we
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Speaker 2: find out, like two minutes later, a delivery was made
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Speaker 2: at the front porch, or somebody then opens the back door.
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Speaker 2: Maybe one of the granny nannies is coming in or out,
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Speaker 2: but he hears it or smells it long before we do.
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Speaker 2: So I want you to tell me again. And the
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Speaker 2: reason I'm so interested, Jeff, is because I personally have
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Speaker 2: investigated cases where the dog was the initial trigger that
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Speaker 2: raised the first alarm, and there have been many in
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Speaker 2: real life. This is what everybody knows, so I use
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Speaker 2: it a lot. The oj Simpson case, the neighbors heard
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Speaker 2: the dog akda issue a as they say, plaintive well
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Speaker 2: that they had never heard the dog do before. And
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Speaker 2: this was around the time Simpson when murdering Nicole and Ron,
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Speaker 2: So the dog was the first alarm. Now I'm very curious.
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Speaker 2: Tell me exactly what happened.
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Speaker 4: Sure, you know, as I've mentioned, our dogs are usually
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Speaker 4: sound slavers full confession. When the dog woke me up
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Speaker 4: to say I've got to go outside, I was grudgingly
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Speaker 4: accommodating and took the dog out to our little courtyard
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Speaker 4: in the back of our house. And it was unusual,
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Speaker 4: and it seldom happens. And we've gone back to the
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Speaker 4: other dates that we've been asked about to see if
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Speaker 4: there's a correlation, and as mentioned, shared this information. But animals,
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Speaker 4: especially dogs, can be so sensitive and kind of work
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Speaker 4: on a different realm with smell, hearing, etc. And we
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Speaker 4: hope it's of some help. We don't know.
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Speaker 2: Now you said something was unusual. What was unusual?
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Speaker 4: Oh, just waking me up at that hour, you know
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Speaker 4: that would be you know once again that that's what
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Speaker 4: was atypical. It actually, uh, you know, it hasn't happened
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Speaker 4: since you know, they are usually sound sleepers, take them
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Speaker 4: out before heading to bed, and taking them out first
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Speaker 4: thing in the morning, So this was kind of unusual.
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Speaker 4: I don't know if they've heard something, smelt something, sense
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Speaker 4: something in some way, So we've obviously provided that information
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Speaker 4: and I don't know if it's of help, but we
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Speaker 4: hope it is.
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Speaker 2: Jeff le me, let me throw this on you. As
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Speaker 2: I've told me you jury, there is no coincidence in
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Speaker 2: criminal law. There's just not coincidences happen in life, but
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Speaker 2: in my experience not in criminal case as much less
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Speaker 2: a kidnap or worse a murder. So at first I
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Speaker 2: didn't understand that this was unusual. I thought your dogs
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Speaker 2: wanted to go out in the middle of the night
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Speaker 2: all the time, like mine does. I think I was projecting,
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Speaker 2: which is never a good thing for a trial lawyer
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Speaker 2: to do. So this is becoming more important in my
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Speaker 2: mind because your dogs don't normally do that. I would
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Speaker 2: like to also share with you that the best witness
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Speaker 2: I ever put on the stand, and I practiced for
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Speaker 2: fourteen years as a fed and a violent fellow and prosecutor,
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Speaker 2: was a dog. Best witness I ever put on the
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Speaker 2: stand that said, Now, this is becoming more significant because
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Speaker 2: your dogs don't normally get up in the middle of
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Speaker 2: the night. I thought that they did because I was projecting.
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Speaker 2: But that night, the night Missus Guthrie is kidnapped, your
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Speaker 2: dogs get up and want to go outside. Is that correct?
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Speaker 4: Yeah? And also some of the other evenings that we've
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Speaker 4: been questioned about. I'm working from memory again. I believe
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Speaker 4: January eleventh was another date that was in question. So
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Speaker 4: we had this activity at that time, and you know
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Speaker 4: human nature, we just filed it away and didn't really
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Speaker 4: think about this until we were asked to review our
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Speaker 4: video and then had this recollection and saw this correlation,
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Speaker 4: which was very unusual.
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Speaker 2: So did you review your video and what if anything?
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Speaker 2: Did you say?
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Speaker 4: Yeah, I once not only reviewed it but provided it
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Speaker 4: to Shaff's department and FBI, and once again, every neighbor
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Speaker 4: has done this. I mean, there's been a robust, wholehearted
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Speaker 4: support from everyone in this community for this investigation and
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Speaker 4: have provided that data points, you know, one thing they
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Speaker 4: can see though perhaps once again I don't know, it
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Speaker 4: could help with timeframe. If in fact it could, that
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Speaker 4: would be a wonderful thing if it provides any value.
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Speaker 4: If there was someone.
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Speaker 2: Did you see anything on the video from Janny eleven?
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Speaker 4: Just the dogs waking us up with it the way
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Speaker 4: our cameras are situated, and this has been I think
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Speaker 4: a frustration is everyone seems to have a ring or
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Speaker 4: some sort of system, but with the size of the
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Speaker 4: lots and where the cameras are situated. They capture your
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Speaker 4: home and entrance points, but they do not capture much
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Speaker 4: beyond that. There's heavy dense brush here, cactus, polaverides, et cetera.
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Speaker 4: So part of the challenge has been you can see
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Speaker 4: beautiful views of our courtyard, front door, garage, et cetera,
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Speaker 4: but not much beyond.
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Speaker 1: That crime stores with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: Let me understand, so, Jeff, And of course I would
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Speaker 2: have this all nailed down if I were putting you
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Speaker 2: on the stand. And forgive me if I keep asking
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Speaker 2: the same question over and over. But on January eleven,
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Speaker 2: you see nothing out in the yard, as you've just
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Speaker 2: explained where your cameras are trained. But having reviewed January
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Speaker 2: eleventh video at the request of the FBI, you realize
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Speaker 2: that on January eleven and January thirty one, both nights,
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Speaker 2: your dog's uncharacteristically wanted to go outside. Yes, and that
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Speaker 2: was very atypical. Yes, when they went outside, did they
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Speaker 2: You said they went to the back or the front.
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Speaker 4: It's the rear of our home where we have a
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Speaker 4: courtyard that a butts are back.
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Speaker 2: Okay, got it? Rear of home is there a cut,
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Speaker 2: a shortcut the people it is that way to get
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Speaker 2: toward Nancy Guthrie's home or could they? Could they?
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Speaker 4: It is fairly dense. We can see her home, the
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Speaker 4: top of her home from the rear of our house.
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Speaker 2: And.
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Speaker 4: It is I'm disguestimating maybe one hundred and fifty yards away,
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Speaker 4: but it is very dense cactus rock, dense brush. From
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Speaker 4: my layperson's perspective, it would be a challenge.
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Speaker 2: Another or someone had mapped it out ahead of time.
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Speaker 4: There are what, oh, there are there's an abudding cul
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Speaker 4: de sac towards the rear. There's a service road that
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Speaker 4: connects to that you'll see. Actually is wonderful the graphics
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Speaker 4: you're putting up where you can see how someone could
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Speaker 4: walk perhaps through the service yard to a cul de sac,
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Speaker 4: perhaps around at.
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Speaker 2: About there's a service out behind your home that leads
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Speaker 2: to a cul de sac that leads to Nancy's home.
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Speaker 2: Did you is that what.
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Speaker 4: I'm alongsideer home, along the side her home, where you
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Speaker 4: would have to physically cut through someone's property but then
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Speaker 4: could lead to a cul de sac. My understanding was
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Speaker 4: years ago school kids would use it as a kind
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Speaker 4: of a way to get grab the school bus and
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Speaker 4: they would cut through that area. That's my understanding. But
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Speaker 4: once again, directly from our home to Nancy's house, it
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Speaker 4: would be it would be it would be rough brush now,
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Speaker 4: especially in the dark.
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Speaker 2: So wait, I'm curious you just said that. Guys that
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Speaker 2: video were showing you earlier. The aerial video was from
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Speaker 2: our friends at twelve Knews. I want to go back
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Speaker 2: to the photo. I want to understand where Jeff Letmey
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Speaker 2: lives on this picture. But you stated that for a
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Speaker 2: long time, school children would use a cut through the back,
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Speaker 2: through the scrub, through the brush, down the service road
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Speaker 2: maybe to get to the school bus instead of going
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Speaker 2: on the street. Is that correct?
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Speaker 4: Sure? My understanding, this is what neighbors have told us,
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Speaker 4: is people would use a service road, sir, cut through
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Speaker 4: someone's property very slightly, and then code to a cul
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Speaker 4: de sac that abuts the back of our yard, but
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Speaker 4: not the ball.
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Speaker 2: And that would get you closer to Nancy's home.
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Speaker 4: Perhaps someone could take a different route to her home
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Speaker 4: through that, through that, through that, through that avenue.
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Speaker 2: Got it. Now, when your dogs go out at night, Jeff,
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Speaker 2: do they lead you to the back or to the front,
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Speaker 2: or do you lead them. But my dog wakes up.
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Speaker 2: He sleeps right beside me in his own little bed
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Speaker 2: by the bed. I have to take him to a
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Speaker 2: certain door. I lead him to a certain door because
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Speaker 2: I know I can get him in more quickly if
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Speaker 2: I go out that door. And it can be any
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Speaker 2: time of the day or night. So did you lead
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Speaker 2: the dog to the back or did the dog lead you?
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Speaker 4: Sure? So it's a courtyard that it butts the bedroom.
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Speaker 4: That's pop the door open, take the dog out, and
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Speaker 4: you know it's right there. So it's the most natural
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Speaker 4: point to be. And that's where we always take the dogs.
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Speaker 2: When your dog went out on Jan. Thirty one and
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Speaker 2: Jan eleven, what did the dog do to continue marking?
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Speaker 4: No barking? But I saw on video the dog sort
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Speaker 4: of looking off to the distance and sort of very
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Speaker 4: focused for a moment. It was fascinating actually, and then
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Speaker 4: moving on to moving on. You know, now, once again
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Speaker 4: in my days, my fuge state passed one am. I
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Speaker 4: did not take note of any of this at the
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Speaker 4: time and took the dog back in and went back
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Speaker 4: to bed, you know, and once again we don't know
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Speaker 4: what was occurring, but it's says something information to provide
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Speaker 4: of some value we hope to the investigation.
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Speaker 2: Jeff, can you look at that overhead and tell me
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Speaker 2: which home is yours as it relates to missus Dthries.
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Speaker 4: So we would be if you leave Nancy's house, take
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Speaker 4: a right and the immediate next right. We're on that
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Speaker 4: street at the end of the street, so if you count.
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Speaker 2: So hold on, I'm trying to digest this. We see
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Speaker 2: the red marker on the screen on her home. So
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Speaker 2: you go forward, which in this picture would be up.
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Speaker 2: You'd make an immediate right, and then your first right
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Speaker 2: and go one, two, three, four houses away.
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Speaker 5: One.
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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, perfect perfectly.
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Speaker 2: Said, got it. It's kind of a little where with
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Speaker 2: the driveway to its left. I see, I see actually
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Speaker 2: what would be the cut through? See it behind your heart?
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Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's alongside our homes. It's a utility road
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Speaker 4: for the power company.
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Speaker 2: Mm hmm, now that I'm talking, do you I see
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Speaker 2: that now, Jeff. Question, we keep hearing about a vacant home.
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Speaker 2: Where is the vacant home as it relates to missus
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Speaker 2: Guthrie's home, So.
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Speaker 4: That is categ corner to our house across the street.
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Speaker 2: The one with the beige gray roof that one kind
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Speaker 2: of to the left of your home a little bit. Yes,
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Speaker 2: uh huh, that's the vacant home. Wow, that is right
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Speaker 2: around the corner from Missus Guthrie. I've been wondering, where's
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Speaker 2: the vacant home? Answer? Okay, what about construction? Where is
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Speaker 2: the construction that's happening in the neighborhood.
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Speaker 4: So that actually is if you're on Escalante and you
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Speaker 4: directly stare from Nancy's home up the street, that kind
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Speaker 4: of there's a there's a cul de sac above. If
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Speaker 4: on this on this camera view above her street, you'll
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Speaker 4: see a white roofed house at the very very top
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Speaker 4: of that cul de sac. That's where construction is occurring.
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Speaker 2: Mister la may do you recall any power outage either
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Speaker 2: on Jan. Thirty one or Jan eleven?
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Speaker 4: You know, this is once again all this information has
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Speaker 4: been provided to the authorities. Two of our cameras were
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Speaker 4: quote unquote offline during this time, which really surprised us.
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Speaker 4: I can't say, you know whether or not that was
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Speaker 4: a coincidence that the cameras were out and offline. I mean,
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Speaker 4: once again, that's for the investigators. They were, but they were.
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Speaker 2: How did you learnt that your cameras that How did
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Speaker 2: you learn that there were outages on eleven and thirty one.
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Speaker 4: We learned that when we were reviewing the data with
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Speaker 4: the investigators and saw, wow, this notation that there was
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Speaker 4: an offline camera to offline cameras.
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Speaker 2: Jeff, who first came to your home asking for information
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Speaker 2: in the FEDS.
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Speaker 4: FBI walked our yard and we actually had a conversation
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Speaker 4: about the rear yard and walked the scrubs, so to speak,
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Speaker 4: to see how inhospitable it was, and they put an
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Speaker 4: opportunity to assess that. But we've had multiple visits from both,
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Speaker 4: but the initial visit was from the Sheriff's department.
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Speaker 2: Jeff, did you ever notice an individual that didn't live
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Speaker 2: in your neighborhood the way another neighbor has, or did
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Speaker 2: you notice vehicle parked in the area for an extended
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Speaker 2: period of time?
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Speaker 4: We did notice a vehicle. My wife shared that information,
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Speaker 4: but it was a very dim recollection. The Saturday evening,
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Speaker 4: early evening, when walking the dogs, we noticed a car
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Speaker 4: parked on Escalante. We shared whatever data we had, but
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Speaker 4: we all do this. It's human nature. You see something,
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Speaker 4: but you want to be accurate in the details. You
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Speaker 4: provide and really couldn't provide much else, you know, It's
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Speaker 4: just something that we noticed.
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Speaker 2: I ever had really quickly for me, Jeff. We are
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Speaker 2: on Escalante, which is Missus Guthrie Street. Was the vehicle parked.
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Speaker 4: So if you continue past Nancy's home, there's a little
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Speaker 4: area where people when they walk their dogs in our
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Speaker 4: neighborhood might park. It's sort of a little area maybe
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Speaker 4: I'm going to estimate fifty yards down on the right
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Speaker 4: hand side, there's a little cut out with gravel where
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Speaker 4: people park their vehicles. And we noticed a car there,
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Speaker 4: and so we noticed a vehicle. But once again we
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Speaker 4: share that information. We did not notice anyone any individuals
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Speaker 4: walking around. I know other neighbors have.
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Speaker 2: Are you and or your neighbors afraid?
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Speaker 4: We're unsettled? Most of all, you've seen the yellow ribbons,
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Speaker 4: the angels on the pala Verde trees, the concern for
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Speaker 4: someone who lives in our neighborhood who a horrible thing
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Speaker 4: happened to, the concern for the family who are going
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Speaker 4: through a horrific, heart wrenching ordeal. Most of all, people
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Speaker 4: are concerned about the neighbor and it is unsettling that
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Speaker 4: something like this occurred.
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Speaker 2: Jeff let Me, neighbor of Nancy Geth speaking out in
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Speaker 2: an effort to help the search. Thank you, mister renee good,
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Speaker 2: thank you. Tonight, we are learning that there is another
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Speaker 2: line of investigation that centers around ridges in front of
23:17
Speaker 2: Nancy Gufries' home. This particular one is from Susie debay
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Speaker 2: X straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville
23:28
Speaker 2: State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon
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Speaker 2: and star of a hit series podcast Body Bags at
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Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan, but more importantly, death investigator with over
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Speaker 2: ten thousand death scenes under his belt? What do you
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Speaker 2: make of the ridges? And can a cast be made
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Speaker 2: of that? We have learned the FBI may have failed
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Speaker 2: at getting a cast. I think I know why, but
24:01
Speaker 2: I want your analysis. Let's see it again.
24:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, So as you're seeing these ridges, Nancy, you can
24:07
Speaker 3: see the composition out here is to say, the very
24:10
Speaker 3: least is uneven. And also this rock aggregate that's there
24:15
Speaker 3: is going to create quite a problem if you want
24:19
Speaker 3: to do a cast. But one thing that we can
24:21
Speaker 3: draw from the so called ridges is the idea of
24:26
Speaker 3: a wheelbase This is something that we use when we're
24:29
Speaker 3: trying to assess tire tracks on motor vehicles. Now, obviously
24:33
Speaker 3: this is not a motor vehicle. But if you begin
24:36
Speaker 3: to think about something, say, for instance, like a wheelchair.
24:38
Speaker 3: All right, you've got two parallel lines that are running
24:43
Speaker 3: in one specific direction. As a matter of fact, you
24:45
Speaker 3: take a look at it, it stays quite linear. It
24:48
Speaker 3: doesn't curve, it doesn't stay off the center. Here the
24:52
Speaker 3: idea with wheelbase, though, Nancy, is to to try to
24:55
Speaker 3: assess what the distance is between the center mass of
24:59
Speaker 3: where the actual wheels are making contact in those ruts.
25:03
Speaker 3: Let's use the term ruts and because that's a term
25:06
Speaker 3: that we would normally use. So with that information alone,
25:10
Speaker 3: you can take that and you can begin to assess
25:13
Speaker 3: what product out there would create these images or these
25:18
Speaker 3: ruts that are being left behind that can be imaged.
25:21
Speaker 3: Can you actually say that this originated from this particular item,
25:27
Speaker 3: Probably not, but it can at least put you in
25:29
Speaker 3: the ballpark. Now, I have to add this one comment here,
25:34
Speaker 3: because of the level or lack thereof of security at
25:38
Speaker 3: the scene, we don't necessarily know what left these behind
25:44
Speaker 3: or who is more accurate, who left these behind. Could
25:47
Speaker 3: it be a perpetrator that is removing Missus Guthrie from
25:51
Speaker 3: the home, or could it actually be someone like, I
25:56
Speaker 3: don't know, a crime scene person that's dragging a kit
25:59
Speaker 3: behind them and those ruts could actually match up with that.
26:04
Speaker 2: Could the tracks be from a wheelchair, from a wheelbarrow,
26:08
Speaker 2: from some device used to move Missus Guthrie? And the
26:15
Speaker 2: video we were showing you earlier, guys, is from our
26:17
Speaker 2: friends at twelve New Years. The reason I'm talking to
26:19
Speaker 2: you about this, Joe Scott, not that you're a wheelbarrow expert,
26:22
Speaker 2: but you are a blood expert, and we know the
26:25
Speaker 2: blood ends at a certain point and those tracks pick
26:28
Speaker 2: up at that point. See what going Yeah, put in
26:33
Speaker 2: a wheelchair?
26:34
Speaker 3: Very compelling? Yeah, it actually is. Here's something else that
26:38
Speaker 3: you might want to consider too. Do you have matching
26:41
Speaker 3: sets or do you have two sets of these? Of
26:45
Speaker 3: these ruts all right? If so, do they give an
26:48
Speaker 3: indication that you have a set that perhaps was not
26:52
Speaker 3: bearing weight before and then afterwards it is bearing weight?
26:55
Speaker 3: And also going to the blood trail, is there is
27:00
Speaker 3: there concurrence between where the blood trail ends and these
27:04
Speaker 3: ruts pick up, because that's a fascinating question scientifically also,
27:10
Speaker 3: and you you asked me a question just a second
27:13
Speaker 3: ago about wheelchairs and wheelbarrows and this sort of thing,
27:17
Speaker 3: and this I can tell you. Yeah, there's there's a
27:20
Speaker 3: type of wheelbarrow out there that actually does have two wheels.
27:23
Speaker 3: But the width of those of those tires on this
27:27
Speaker 3: thing are rather robust. This is not what you're looking at.
27:30
Speaker 3: You're looking at something that's very very narrow. And of course,
27:33
Speaker 3: just like when we think about furrows in the neck
27:36
Speaker 3: of somebody that has been asphyxiated, remember, the smaller the gauge,
27:42
Speaker 3: the deeper the rut, or the deeper the furrow. Here,
27:45
Speaker 3: the more narrow nor more narrow the rut. You're going
27:50
Speaker 3: to talk about something that has a very very tight
27:52
Speaker 3: gauge on it that can actually go down into the surface.
27:56
Speaker 3: The idea here is to try to understand was it
27:58
Speaker 3: bearing weight at that particular time. But part of this
28:03
Speaker 3: just seems rather cumbersome.
28:04
Speaker 2: Hey, hey, just Scott, look at this again. One I've
28:09
Speaker 2: been asked, do these ridges suggest she was dragged? I
28:13
Speaker 2: don't see that. I see actual wheel marks. But what
28:19
Speaker 2: about a wagon?
28:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, I suppose a wagon. But again, okay, this is
28:24
Speaker 3: what you would need to do. There are garden wagons
28:27
Speaker 3: out there that people utilize. I don't know what kind
28:31
Speaker 3: of utility it would have. And also, again you would
28:34
Speaker 3: have to go back to the wheels or the tires
28:36
Speaker 3: on these things to see if they marry up with
28:39
Speaker 3: the width dimensions on the actual ruts themselves. Okay, so
28:43
Speaker 3: we've got two. We've got two measurements we're looking at you.
28:45
Speaker 3: We've got wheelbase, and then we've got the width of
28:48
Speaker 3: the rut itself, and then the depth. That's a third measurement.
28:54
Speaker 2: There's been a lot of photos regarding tracks from her home.
28:59
Speaker 2: This particular one is from Susie debay X. Susie debay X,
29:04
Speaker 2: and I really liked it when I saw it. Can
29:08
Speaker 2: I get a close up again? It was part of
29:11
Speaker 2: the blood video because you're not going to get any
29:17
Speaker 2: cast I don't think out of gravel. I see this
29:21
Speaker 2: is where the blood starts. But when you look at
29:23
Speaker 2: this video as opposed to the steel photos, you see
29:27
Speaker 2: how far along the blood went. I didn't ever hear
29:30
Speaker 2: Joe Scott about any blood being in that portion. It's
29:33
Speaker 2: gravel in cement and you're not going to get a
29:36
Speaker 2: cast off that.
29:38
Speaker 3: No, not in that particular area. No, that's some kind
29:41
Speaker 3: of aggregate that has some kind of cement to it.
29:44
Speaker 3: So no, you're not going to pick up anything right now.
29:46
Speaker 3: You can look at what.
29:47
Speaker 2: About where the ridges are. And by the way, that
29:49
Speaker 2: videos from our friends at Fox News go ahead, dear.
29:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, so looking where these ruts are, Nancy, when you
29:57
Speaker 3: take a look at that, the composition looks like gravel
30:00
Speaker 3: to me, or it's got some you know, some kind
30:02
Speaker 3: of aggregate of gravel. I don't think that it's cemented down. However,
30:06
Speaker 3: just imagine if we poured a cast into that area.
30:09
Speaker 3: We actually use people might not know this. We use
30:11
Speaker 3: dental stone in order to facilitate these casts, which is
30:15
Speaker 3: kind of made out of gypsum. And so when you
30:18
Speaker 3: let that dry, guess what you're gonna pull up. You're
30:20
Speaker 3: gonna pull up a big, massive gravel. At that point
30:22
Speaker 3: in time, it's nothing you can actually read.
30:26
Speaker 2: So then our info that the FEDS could not get
30:30
Speaker 2: a cast of the tire marks or any shee marks
30:37
Speaker 2: and the gravel is correct.
30:40
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So based upon this image that I'm seeing,
30:43
Speaker 3: and again qualifier, these are not crime scene images. But
30:47
Speaker 3: when you take a look at that and you think
30:49
Speaker 3: about the composition of it. Would they would say there's
30:52
Speaker 3: no utility in it. There's not going to have any value.
30:55
Speaker 3: The best thing you can do is photograph, photograph, photograph, photograw.
31:04
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
31:10
Speaker 2: If you take a look at porch guy, not only
31:14
Speaker 2: just a careful look, seem to reveal headlights over his shoulder,
31:18
Speaker 2: possibly from a vehicle. Now take a look, and this
31:22
Speaker 2: is from blue Star eight one to two slash X
31:29
Speaker 2: blue Star eight one to two slash X in addition
31:34
Speaker 2: to possible headlights in the background. I want to talk
31:38
Speaker 2: to guest Terry Wynn Yates aka mister Locksmith, third generation
31:47
Speaker 2: master locksmith, over twenty five years experience and expert in
31:52
Speaker 2: picking locks. I'm not going to ask too many questions
31:54
Speaker 2: about how you became an expert in picking locks on YouTube.
31:58
Speaker 2: He is at twenty four hour mister Locksmith. His website
32:03
Speaker 2: mister locksmith dot com, mister prolock dot com, mister wen Yates,
32:08
Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. Explain to me how
32:13
Speaker 2: a lock pick could be used, because we've heard so much.
32:17
Speaker 2: Did one purp come in through the back door while
32:20
Speaker 2: the other purp or a single purp came in through
32:24
Speaker 2: the front door. We've been told that the wrought iron
32:29
Speaker 2: screen door would be impenetrable. Let's take a look at
32:34
Speaker 2: that lock on Missus Guthrie's wrought iron door. Mister wen Yates.
32:42
Speaker 2: Can a lockpick break through this lock? And how.
32:47
Speaker 6: An amateur could open that lock in minutes a professional
32:52
Speaker 6: in seconds? The top dead bolt and the bottom kiannop
32:58
Speaker 6: is what we train our locksmith's.
33:00
Speaker 5: That's the first locks they play with.
33:02
Speaker 6: They learn how to pick that within the hour they're
33:04
Speaker 6: picking those locks.
33:06
Speaker 5: It's not a high security lock at all.
33:08
Speaker 2: Terry wyn Yates, you're telling me, and by the way,
33:11
Speaker 2: this is video from mister locksmith on YouTube. We're showing
33:15
Speaker 2: you how it's done. But could you explain it, mister
33:19
Speaker 2: wyn Yates.
33:22
Speaker 5: I had to pick the lock.
33:23
Speaker 6: First of all, it has to be a lock that's
33:24
Speaker 6: not high security, So if it's a regular house.
33:27
Speaker 5: Lock, business lock, what, et cetera.
33:29
Speaker 6: You apply turning pressure and then there's a couple of
33:33
Speaker 6: different methods of picking. One is raking. You sort of
33:37
Speaker 6: rake the pick in and out as you apply tension.
33:40
Speaker 6: The other method is what we call SPP or single
33:42
Speaker 6: pin picking, and that's when you become more advanced and
33:46
Speaker 6: you can pick the lock one pin at a time,
33:50
Speaker 6: and there's five pins, and the lock that you showed
33:53
Speaker 6: me the picture, there's five pins.
33:55
Speaker 5: So and it's a pretty simple lock to pick.
33:58
Speaker 2: Let's say, missus Guthrie lock again, please control room. So,
34:03
Speaker 2: Terry wing Yates, you're telling me that even an amateur
34:06
Speaker 2: could break into this with.
34:09
Speaker 6: They don't have to break anything. There's several methods to
34:12
Speaker 6: open that lock. It's extremely easy to pick open, extremely easy,
34:19
Speaker 6: and that's what we start our beginners with. And within
34:22
Speaker 6: the hour they're picking that lock and the bottom lock
34:26
Speaker 6: has so all.
34:27
Speaker 2: This business about this darbing impenetrable is all BS technical
34:32
Speaker 2: legal term, right totally, Terry wing Yates. What about a
34:40
Speaker 2: lock pick gun?
34:44
Speaker 6: Yeather the it's basically just a spring with a little
34:48
Speaker 6: pick like a straight pick on it.
34:50
Speaker 5: Spring steel, and it's just it's like bumping the lock.
34:53
Speaker 6: Yeah, and when you put it in there, a couple
34:57
Speaker 6: clicks and apply tension.
34:59
Speaker 5: Put it the pickgun.
35:01
Speaker 6: They're readily available all over the internet.
35:05
Speaker 5: And you can pick the lock in seconds.
35:09
Speaker 6: It's just and the other method, the pickgun is similar
35:13
Speaker 6: to what we call a bump key.
35:16
Speaker 2: So you told me earlier that a lock pick gun
35:19
Speaker 2: is kind of old school. It's not been used much anymore.
35:22
Speaker 6: Well, there's better methods, but it's very simple to teach
35:25
Speaker 6: people that. One reason you don't like it and certain
35:29
Speaker 6: methods is covert is it makes some noise. It goes
35:33
Speaker 6: bang bang bang, you know, click click, click, So it
35:36
Speaker 6: could make some noise. If you want to be quiet,
35:37
Speaker 6: use a regular lock pick or some of the more
35:40
Speaker 6: advanced methods to pick the lock.
35:43
Speaker 2: Straight out to Brian is Gibbons joining us tonight, Director
35:46
Speaker 2: of Operations USPA Nationwide Security, leading a team of investigators
35:51
Speaker 2: around the world to find and extract missing people former
35:55
Speaker 2: marine Iraqi war that I'd like you to turn your attention, Brian,
36:02
Speaker 2: toward what seems to be headlights behind the porch. Guy,
36:09
Speaker 2: look at that and also control room, if you will
36:13
Speaker 2: pull up the video where a pointer is actually pointing
36:16
Speaker 2: to the lights. So Ryphus Gibbons, does this mean there
36:23
Speaker 2: is an accomplice? And that's from our friend blue Star
36:27
Speaker 2: eight twelve on.
36:28
Speaker 7: X Yeah, I think listen. Does this piece of video
36:34
Speaker 7: mean that there's an accomplice? Not necessarily, however, right logic
36:40
Speaker 7: tells us that removing missus Guthrie from the house, evading
36:45
Speaker 7: all sorts of detection throughout this process, leads us to
36:50
Speaker 7: think there has to be more than one person involved,
36:53
Speaker 7: and that they would require a vehicle to move her
36:57
Speaker 7: away from her residence one hundred perpops.
37:01
Speaker 2: So hold on, hold on, Fitz, Look, Fitz, look watch
37:04
Speaker 2: it again. He looks back directly at those headlights. Say
37:07
Speaker 2: did you see that? Wait, let's let's play that again.
37:10
Speaker 2: In it's an entirety of this same look back. I
37:14
Speaker 2: did not notice that the first time? What about that, Fitz.
37:19
Speaker 7: There's been a number of really good breakdowns done in
37:23
Speaker 7: the online sleuth community seeing this what appears to be
37:28
Speaker 7: some communication from the purp on the porch back in
37:32
Speaker 7: the direction of what appears to be headlights going off,
37:37
Speaker 7: So that that is certainly, you know, an interesting point there.
37:42
Speaker 2: You know, Brian. Other theories have emerged that, and this
37:47
Speaker 2: is from a retired FBI, that they are up to
37:51
Speaker 2: five accomplices. I find the five to be unbelievable because
37:59
Speaker 2: with five people, somebody's going to crack or some wife, girlfriend,
38:03
Speaker 2: neighbor is going to blab. Five way too many. What's
38:07
Speaker 2: your thought?
38:09
Speaker 7: I share that with a one point two million dollar
38:12
Speaker 7: reward and five people associated in a conspiracy, it's very
38:17
Speaker 7: unlikely that they can keep things that tight without somebody
38:22
Speaker 7: leaking information or going to law enforcement. I think it's
38:27
Speaker 7: more likely that two or three were involved here, at
38:31
Speaker 7: least a second person to bring up a vehicle and
38:35
Speaker 7: one to make entry into the home and bring out
38:39
Speaker 7: Missus Guthrie Brianus Gibbons.
38:41
Speaker 2: You were listening as Jeff lem was describing that school
38:46
Speaker 2: kid cut through that was used. I find that very
38:51
Speaker 2: very interesting.
38:55
Speaker 7: Yeah, so this cut through and you can view it
38:58
Speaker 7: and zoom in on the map. You would have pretty
39:02
Speaker 7: good concealment to move on foot to the southeast and
39:08
Speaker 7: gain access to Missus Guthrie's property from her backyard. That
39:14
Speaker 7: cut through steams relatively navigable at night.
39:19
Speaker 4: With that dirt road there.
39:22
Speaker 7: And would have good cover and concealment from cameras on
39:27
Speaker 7: the backyards of these properties.
39:29
Speaker 2: Joining me now, Todd Shipley, digital cybercrime expert, former Detective
39:33
Speaker 2: Sergeant Reno Nevada, twenty five years in law enforcement, AUTHOROB
39:38
Speaker 2: Surviving a cyber attack and AUTHOROB investigating Internet crimes. You
39:44
Speaker 2: can find him at dark intel dot info. Todd, you
39:49
Speaker 2: have been listening very carefully. Here's the question regarding your expertise.
39:56
Speaker 2: We know that missus Guthrie had cameras in her backyard,
40:01
Speaker 2: including one up on a post. Do you believe there
40:07
Speaker 2: is more video or images to be found and they're
40:11
Speaker 2: just trying to recover them because we keep hearing shifting
40:14
Speaker 2: stories from nanos suggesting there's nothing else, and then suddenly
40:17
Speaker 2: there is something else.
40:20
Speaker 8: Well, I think you're right. I think there is more
40:23
Speaker 8: to be gotten out of this. That's evident by the
40:25
Speaker 8: fact that they had this other video that they classified
40:29
Speaker 8: from January eleventh, that all of a sudden showed up.
40:32
Speaker 8: But I think one of the things about the current
40:34
Speaker 8: video and the lights you're seeing in there, is the
40:37
Speaker 8: bias that law enforcement has shown in their review of
40:41
Speaker 8: that video. And I mean that they focused on the
40:45
Speaker 8: person in the video because that was what they see
40:48
Speaker 8: and didn't look at the background. And so oftentimes when
40:51
Speaker 8: we're looking at these things, we have to look at
40:53
Speaker 8: the bigger picture, and they didn't do that. They focused
40:56
Speaker 8: on the guy, They focused on that he had done.
40:58
Speaker 8: They focused on, you know, what was up his sleeve,
41:01
Speaker 8: whether it was a watch, or tattoo all these things
41:04
Speaker 8: and missed the fact that there was something in the
41:07
Speaker 8: background that was there that came out through crowdsourcing by
41:11
Speaker 8: somebody on a first you know, through social media, which
41:15
Speaker 8: should have been one of the first things that they
41:17
Speaker 8: looked at when they look at video what's going on.
41:19
Speaker 8: So there's a bunch of information I think it still
41:22
Speaker 8: exists that law enforcement hasn't either gotten to or has
41:26
Speaker 8: not released.
41:27
Speaker 4: To us obviously.
41:28
Speaker 2: Todd Shipley, what is your other observation tonight.
41:33
Speaker 8: Well, one of the things that we've not seen yet
41:35
Speaker 8: from the releases by the FBI or the shrif's department
41:38
Speaker 8: is the metadata regarding these videos.
41:42
Speaker 4: Metadata is data that describes other data.
41:44
Speaker 8: When you take a picture, you take a video, there's
41:47
Speaker 8: data that is collected by the camera that describes who
41:50
Speaker 8: took up, what camera took it, the dates and times,
41:53
Speaker 8: sometimes geolocation, and so we don't have any of that,
41:56
Speaker 8: and I think that was why, at least initially there
41:59
Speaker 8: was some ern about the January eleventh date, is because
42:02
Speaker 8: there was something that indicated that date in a camera
42:06
Speaker 8: video at some portion which we haven't got yet, So
42:10
Speaker 8: we don't know what that meddata is related to any
42:13
Speaker 8: of these videos or any of the pictures that are taken.
42:16
Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything about Missus
42:19
Speaker 2: Guthrie's disappearance, please dial toll free eight hundred two two
42:23
Speaker 2: five five three two eight, or to remain anonymous five
42:28
Speaker 2: two zero eight eight two seven four sixty three. Thank
42:34
Speaker 2: you to our guest joining us tonight, but especially to
42:37
Speaker 2: you for being with us and keeping the search for
42:40
Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie alive. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight. I'll
42:44
Speaker 2: see you tomorrow night, and until then, good night for you.
42:49
Speaker 2: Thanks