Latest / NO FILTER / MSNBC Highlights _ May 28(MP3_160K)

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MSNBC Highlights _ May 28(MP3_160K) · NO FILTER

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: We're following some very big breaking news tonight, news that
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: will come as a big blow to Donald Trump and
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: his agenda. Tonight, a three judge panel in New York
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: has effectively boked almost all of Trump's disastrous tariffs. Trump's
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: tariffs against Mexico and Canada, his tariffs against the EU
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: against China, his teriffs against uninhabited islands with nothing but
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: penguins and snow, they are all blocked by this federal
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: court decision. It comes out of the United States Court
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: of International Trade, which is a specialized court you may
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: or may not have ever heard of, but.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: It deals specifically with trade issues.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: A three judge panel consisting of one Reagan appointee, one
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Obama appointee, and crucially and importantly, one Trump appointee, ruled
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: unanimously that Trump's trade war is essentially illegal, that he
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: does not have the authority to enact these sweeping tariffs
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: on his own. When Trump signed the executive order enacting
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: these tariffs, he cited something called the International Emergency Economic
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Powers Act, a law that gives the president the authority
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: to use terrace some times of national emergency, and in
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: their ruling tonight, the judge is right quote.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: The question is whether the.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: International Emergency Economic Powers Act delegates these powers to the
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: President in the form of authority to impose unlimited tariffs
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: on goods from nearly every country in the world. The
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Court does not read the law to confer such unbounded
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: authority and sets aside the challenged tariffs imposed thereunder. The
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: law does not grant tariff authority to the President simply
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: when he finds or determines that an unusual and extraordinary
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: threat exists.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: I sense a little snark there.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: I appreciate it, But man, when you put it that way,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: it all kind of.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not an expert in international trade law,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: but Trump's justifications for these tariffs have always been pretty thin.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: As Chris and I were just talking about, Trump claims
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: his tariffs on Canada were to stop fencanyl trafficking, even
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: though less than one percent of the fentanyl we see
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: is that the border comes from Canada, less than one percent. Now,
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: for the first time, we have a federal court saying
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: that we all, well, we all kind of sort of
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: knew to.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Be true already.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: The president's justification for this trade war is bs, and
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: that is not all. The court tonight also ordered that
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: all of the tariffs Trump has collected so far be vacated.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Just how that will work, especially from a White House
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: that doesn't exactly abide by every court order, and what
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: that will all mean? I do not know.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: This is just breaking this news in the last couple
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: of hours, but I have the right person to ask
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: starting us off tonight, as Arizona Attorney General Chris Mays,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: who co led this lawsuit against Donald Trump's tariffs. Attorney
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: General Mays, thank you for joining us on such short notice.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: This all just happened in the last couple of hours,
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: as you well know. Let me just start because I
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: think we're all trying to digest this and people at
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: home are wondering what this exactly means. And it's our
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: understanding that this ruling applies to all tariffs except for
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: the ones imposed on steel and aluminum first, Is that right?
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: And can you just give us the scope of the
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: impact of this ruling tonight?
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: Sure?
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: Thanks Jenna, Thanks for having me. It's a huge day
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: for American consumers, for small businesses all throughout this country
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: who were on the precipice of being absolutely devastated and
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: harmed by these tariffs, and so we are celebrating this.
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: We like you, are still digesting it. But essentially you're right,
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: I mean this The Court of International Trade, in a
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: very thoughtful decision, said that essentially all of the tariffs
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: that Donald Trump engaged in under ie EPA, basically the
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: April tariffs, are unlawful, and so they are enjoined. They
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: are essentially enjoined as of tonight as you and I
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: are speaking. It looks like the Trump administration has made
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: it clear they're going to try to appeal this decision
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: and they'll probably seek a stay. But for now, this
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: is good news for the people of America.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: No question about it. I mean, there's been understandable panic
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: concerned about costs in so many areas of goods that
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: people rely on. I want to get to the legal
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: next steps in a moment, but I just want to ask.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, the three judge panel also ordered that any
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: tariff payments already collected be vacated.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: Which sounds like it means be paid back. Is that
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: what it means? And how exactly would that work?
• 4:23
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
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  Speaker 4: I think we're still sorting through that, so I don't
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: want to be too declarative about that, but yes, essentially
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: it vacates the tariffs and it joins them from going forward.
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: So that's why we're expecting Trump to to try to
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: appeal this decision. It'll probably end up at the United
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: States Supreme Court at some point in the very near future.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: So just in the last minutes, right before we came
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: on air, the Trump administration did file a notice of appeal,
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: which I'm sure doesn't surprise you as you were just saying.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: It also has seemed it's always seemed weird that Donald
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Trump just had the unilateral power to wake up and
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: decide to put tariffs in every country in the world
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: for whatever.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Reason he decided. I mean as a layperson.
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  Speaker 1: But even with this appeal being filed and with some
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: of their aggressive responses, he's also somebody who doesn't really
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: have a history of complying always with court ruling.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: So what happens if he doesn't?
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: I know, we're just digesting this, but have you thought
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: about that with the others who filed this lawsuit.
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's a fair point. And you know, as
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: you know, the Democratic agees have sued Donald Trump now
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: I think more than twenty times on a couple of occasions.
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: You were right, he has violated federal court orders. And
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: what we have done is we have gone back into
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: the federal court when that happens, and we have asked
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: for what's called emotion to compel. So I suppose if
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: they try to continue to collect these tariffs, and they
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: try to continue the tariff schemes despite the Court of
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: International Trades opinion, we would have to go back in
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: for emotion to compel. Let's hope that's not necessary, and
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: let's see what happens next.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: We will see.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: We'll have to keep talking about it with you and
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: your other democratic age's in a statement, they've had a
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: pretty aggressive response to this is one way to define it.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: But I think it's so important to untangle all of this,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: and you're the perfect expert to.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: Do that with.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: In a statement after the ruling, the White House said
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: America's trade deficits constitute a national emergency and that's up
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: to the president to decide, not judges. I mean, essentially,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: the court seemed to say the opposite.
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  Speaker 4: But what do you say to that, No, that's right.
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: And so there's a couple of things here. Number One, fundamentally,
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: the power to levy tariffs rest with Congress, right, and
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: as you know, nowhere in i EPA does it even
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: mention the word tariffs. Now, the court in in its
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: decision didn't say that the president, whoever the president is,
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: never can levy tariffs under a EPA. But what the
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: court is saying is the president does not have unbounded
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: authority to levy these tariffs. And that's what this was.
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: I mean, he just sort of woke up one day
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: and decided that he was going to levy tariffs on
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: Canada and China and Mexico and the worldwide tariffs, and
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: you know, declared that this was all based on fentanyl. Well, okay,
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: but then he then came up with different reasons for it,
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: as you just pointed out, So what are the reasons
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: for it? And if you're going to put tariffs on tomatoes,
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: what does that have to do with fentanyl.
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  Speaker 2: It's a good question.
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  Speaker 1: Tomatoes and fens and all the other way they seem
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  Speaker 1: to have responded. Trump advisor Stephen Miller tweeted, the judicial
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: coup is out of control, which seems to be kind
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: of a predictable need your reaction to any time of
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: court rules against them. Now, this panel, as I started
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  Speaker 1: off the show saying.
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  Speaker 2: Was unanimous.
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  Speaker 1: One of the appointees on the panel was a Trump appointee.
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  Speaker 1: But what do you say to that sort of response
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  Speaker 1: from the White House?
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  Speaker 4: You know, it's just it's so disappointing, Jen, and it
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  Speaker 4: just points to a trend that we are seeing this
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  Speaker 4: administration going after judges, undermining the authority of the judicial
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  Speaker 4: branch of government, not respecting the two other branches of government.
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: I mean, again, that's what this case is about. This
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  Speaker 4: is this case is about the president's power visa vi Congress,
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  Speaker 4: and now he's disrespecting judges and he basically makes these
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: sort of very disrespectful and alarming statements every time he
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: loses a case. And that's just not how things are
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  Speaker 4: done in our country.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: We've already discussed some of this. You know, they've already
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: filed their notice of appeal. You said it could go
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court.
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  Speaker 2: What's next?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, what should we be watching for in the
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: next days and weeks here?
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  Speaker 4: So I think you you've kind of laid out some
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: of them, which is, you know, what does you know
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: do they seek a stay of this this Court's decision?
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: We'll watch for that they can. Certainly they have the
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: ability to do that. If if this court does not
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: allow for a stay, then we'll have to watch to
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: make sure that the Trump administration does not UH, as
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: you pointed out, violate its order.
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, then I.
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: Would be watching for you know, how how businesses react
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  Speaker 4: for the to this. I think that a lot of
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: small businesses, mid sized businesses, large businesses are all going
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: to support this UH and be absolutely thrilled with it
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: and hope that it sticks. Because these tariffs are causing
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  Speaker 4: chaos for our consumers. This is a tax, say, this
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: is a direct tax gen on the people of America.
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  Speaker 4: And I think that's why this is such a huge
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  Speaker 4: victory and a huge night for our country because hopefully
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  Speaker 4: it's the start of us getting things back on track
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  Speaker 4: and preventing this harm.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: No question about that.
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  Speaker 1: Arizona Attorney General Chris Mays, thank you so much for
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: joining me on such short notice and providing so much
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: helpful information to people watching out there.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate it.
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  Speaker 6: Thanks jan.
• 10:28
  Speaker 7: President Trump's second term has been rockier than his first.
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  Speaker 7: We are now about one hundred and twenty eight days
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  Speaker 7: in and there have been more legally extreme measures out
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  Speaker 7: of the White House than blocked in court more than
• 10:41
  Speaker 7: the first term.
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: At this point right here, more market.
• 10:45
  Speaker 7: Volatility specifically driven by Trump's tariffs than any other government
• 10:50
  Speaker 7: move driving this kind of volatility in decades, and that
• 10:55
  Speaker 7: up and down that volatility reflects two problems for Trump.
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: First, widespread rejection.
• 11:03
  Speaker 7: Of his trade war, and that's been a problem for weeks,
• 11:08
  Speaker 7: which is part of why he's backed off. But second
• 11:11
  Speaker 7: is the growing awareness of the reality that while Trump
• 11:14
  Speaker 7: opens with the strong man approach and vows a tough stand,
• 11:18
  Speaker 7: he then often later backs down under pressure. It's something
• 11:22
  Speaker 7: that China found by standing up to President Trump and
• 11:24
  Speaker 7: hitting back on the teriffs, and that reality undercuts Trump's
• 11:29
  Speaker 7: claimed business persona the tough.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: Negotiator who will always get results.
• 11:35
  Speaker 7: Now we know some people believe in that. Politically that's fine,
• 11:40
  Speaker 7: but we're past campaign season. Trump is president and he's
• 11:44
  Speaker 7: been opening with these giant bids. Some call it maximilism
• 11:47
  Speaker 7: if you want to get fancy, but people are learning
• 11:50
  Speaker 7: his patterns where he'll issue a huge demand, creat a crisis,
• 11:53
  Speaker 7: but increasingly often he will end up backing down. The
• 11:57
  Speaker 7: Times reports example, we all lived through Trump hit China
• 12:01
  Speaker 7: with big tariffs. He warned them, quote, do not retaliate,
• 12:06
  Speaker 7: as if he could control the response of a foreign nation,
• 12:10
  Speaker 7: which has its own economy, its own issues, its own military,
• 12:13
  Speaker 7: just by tapping that out in all caps from the
• 12:16
  Speaker 7: White House account. It didn't work. As you probably know,
• 12:21
  Speaker 7: China did retaliate. They matched the tariffs. It drove a
• 12:24
  Speaker 7: clash that went up and up, at one point hitting
• 12:26
  Speaker 7: one hundred and forty five percent tariffs, which is literally
• 12:30
  Speaker 7: more than double the cost of every item from that country.
• 12:33
  Speaker 7: And everyone knew that wasn't sustainable. In other words, we
• 12:36
  Speaker 7: weren't going to have years with everything costing double. The
• 12:40
  Speaker 7: real impacts began. The US ports began to empty out.
• 12:44
  Speaker 7: Companies started warning the higher prices were coming from Trump tariffs,
• 12:48
  Speaker 7: and then the empty shells were going to come. And
• 12:52
  Speaker 7: as the weeks went by, before that hit an actual
• 12:55
  Speaker 7: crisis level, Trump backed off most of the key tariffs.
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: And he did it by himself.
• 13:03
  Speaker 7: He blinked because China did not offer real concessions. There
• 13:07
  Speaker 7: was no trade deal, no handshake, no big announcement where
• 13:12
  Speaker 7: both leaders get to say everyone's winning something.
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: No, he just backed down.
• 13:16
  Speaker 7: And business leaders have been facing this in real time.
• 13:20
  Speaker 7: And you know, I always try to level with you.
• 13:22
  Speaker 7: If you're busy living your life, you may not have
• 13:24
  Speaker 7: understandably followed every back and forth trade threat. You might
• 13:29
  Speaker 7: have said, we'll see how high prices get at the
• 13:31
  Speaker 7: Walmart of the bodega, and until then, be busy with life.
• 13:34
  Speaker 7: But the people who trade this stuff and trade stocks,
• 13:37
  Speaker 7: they've been dealing with it daily. And The Times reports
• 13:39
  Speaker 7: many of those on Wall Street say Trump has clearly
• 13:42
  Speaker 7: been chickening out. They've even coined a phrase, a shorthand
• 13:47
  Speaker 7: Trump always chickens out, which spells out to the acronym taco.
• 13:53
  Speaker 7: And this is like real news. This is really something
• 13:56
  Speaker 7: they're saying. And that's coming from Wall Street, which leans
• 13:59
  Speaker 7: right and is a place where negotiating is a big deal.
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: It's a type of skill. They take it seriously.
• 14:06
  Speaker 7: Now today we saw the president of Bristles at the
• 14:08
  Speaker 7: taco term. He said the question even asking about it
• 14:12
  Speaker 7: was quote nasty. That coming from a politician known for
• 14:16
  Speaker 7: his very tough nicknames and attacks on all kinds of
• 14:18
  Speaker 7: other people. But I guess the word chicken is too
• 14:21
  Speaker 7: much for him today. Now that's just in the trade war.
• 14:24
  Speaker 7: The battles are measurable there and the news comes fast.
• 14:28
  Speaker 7: But what I want to talk to you about tonight
• 14:30
  Speaker 7: is how these lessons could apply more broadly, which it's
• 14:33
  Speaker 7: no exaggeration to say, could affect our free speech and
• 14:37
  Speaker 7: democracy in this country if people learn the right lessons,
• 14:41
  Speaker 7: as Trump's approach backfires and clashes with people and groups
• 14:45
  Speaker 7: who have at least the power and money to fight back,
• 14:49
  Speaker 7: and who choose to fight back, who use their power,
• 14:53
  Speaker 7: because we can now document over these one hundred and
• 14:56
  Speaker 7: twenty plus days, who is winning and so Trump it
• 15:00
  Speaker 7: has convinced many supporters that he's the boss he played
• 15:03
  Speaker 7: in his fictional television show, which we all remember it
• 15:07
  Speaker 7: was on our sister channel, NBC back when he was
• 15:09
  Speaker 7: just doing reality TV. But what's interesting right now is
• 15:14
  Speaker 7: how he is trying to sort of enact that version
• 15:16
  Speaker 7: of reality in the White House, and it is faltering
• 15:19
  Speaker 7: posturing a performance, a presidential version of the boss he
• 15:23
  Speaker 7: played in The Apprentice. Is how Jonathan Chait writes in
• 15:27
  Speaker 7: The Atlantic quote sitting.
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: In a plush leather chair dolling out justice to quavering supplicants.
• 15:33
  Speaker 7: But the evidence suggests a clear pattern. Although Trump instructs
• 15:37
  Speaker 7: targets to submit. Doing so merely sets them up for
• 15:40
  Speaker 7: more humiliation and abuse. So Trump demanded China surrender, just
• 15:47
  Speaker 7: as he wanted universities and law firms to surrender to
• 15:50
  Speaker 7: those executive orders, which were unfair and probably illegal, although
• 15:54
  Speaker 7: the day they came down there wasn't a court ruling
• 15:56
  Speaker 7: on that yet by definition, but I can remind you
• 15:59
  Speaker 7: the federal government's usually restricted from using its powers to
• 16:03
  Speaker 7: say punished dissent and First Amendment protected free speech, and
• 16:08
  Speaker 7: Trump made it more likely he would lose in court
• 16:10
  Speaker 7: because he admitted those were the motivations. He didn't, for example,
• 16:12
  Speaker 7: say we just are trying to make sure that we
• 16:15
  Speaker 7: regulate law firms. He said, I'm going after firms named X,
• 16:18
  Speaker 7: Y and Z Wilmer Hale because they represented.
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: People I don't like.
• 16:23
  Speaker 7: Harvard has power, prestige, and more money than most corporations.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: They've been winning.
• 16:27
  Speaker 7: They have a fifty billion dollar endowment, so they've been
• 16:30
  Speaker 7: fighting back. They got a federal judge to shut down
• 16:34
  Speaker 7: one of the retaliation plots that would try to ban
• 16:38
  Speaker 7: any new students from abroad from going to Harvard, which
• 16:40
  Speaker 7: seems pretty unfair and now is not happening as long
• 16:45
  Speaker 7: as a judge keeps that frozen law firms who fought
• 16:48
  Speaker 7: trump executive orders have won three times just this month already.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: So that's the power of pushback.
• 16:55
  Speaker 7: But that's not all you can say, okay, Ari, It's
• 16:57
  Speaker 7: some examples, right, that's examples on one side. Now, let's
• 17:02
  Speaker 7: just briefly contrast it to the law firms and.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: The universities that just gave in.
• 17:08
  Speaker 7: Maybe they were trying to avoid Trump's ire, but here's
• 17:13
  Speaker 7: the deal. In the second term different than the first.
• 17:17
  Speaker 7: He is more blunt and direct, He is unshackled, and
• 17:21
  Speaker 7: he sees their surrender as weakness that invites more abuse.
• 17:25
  Speaker 7: Trump now openly plotting to push those surrender law firms
• 17:29
  Speaker 7: to do even more free work for him and his agenda,
• 17:32
  Speaker 7: even though they already gave in. Columbia is one of
• 17:35
  Speaker 7: the universities that basically gave in earlier, and it's found
• 17:38
  Speaker 7: Trump is not even.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: Letting up for a few weeks. New York Times.
• 17:42
  Speaker 7: Headline, they are showing this government, with so many things
• 17:45
  Speaker 7: to deal with, is back at Columbia, arguing the school
• 17:49
  Speaker 7: is discriminating against Jewish students as it goes after them.
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: On Trump's continuing retribution tour.
• 17:56
  Speaker 7: Now, let's be clear, the administration is citing an area
• 18:03
  Speaker 7: an issue where Trump is referring.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: To a real world problem.
• 18:07
  Speaker 7: Anti Semitism is a very ancient hatred that endures.
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: It's a problem in America, it's a problem in many countries.
• 18:16
  Speaker 7: But weaponizing it for partisan politics in a way that
• 18:20
  Speaker 7: has left many experts and Jewish leaders, by the way,
• 18:24
  Speaker 7: opposed to Trump's effort to hijack the concern. That's one
• 18:28
  Speaker 7: of the problems with leaning on a real problem to
• 18:31
  Speaker 7: try to settle scores, because it appears to clearly be,
• 18:34
  Speaker 7: according to the events, part of the ongoing retribution crackdowns,
• 18:39
  Speaker 7: whether that's law firms that represented his opponents like I mentioned,
• 18:43
  Speaker 7: or students who simply oppose MAGA and Trump agenda items
• 18:47
  Speaker 7: who happen to go to Columbia. So part of it's
• 18:50
  Speaker 7: about abuse an administration so extreme that it targets free
• 18:52
  Speaker 7: speech so much that it's already run into walls in court.
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: But the other part here is about something that I bet.
• 18:59
  Speaker 7: You know about because you are watching MSNBC, whether you're
• 19:02
  Speaker 7: doing that on live TV or YouTube or how are
• 19:04
  Speaker 7: you hearing my voice? I bet you have an interest
• 19:07
  Speaker 7: in political strategy, which is still how part of the
• 19:10
  Speaker 7: world works. And in politics, you have seasoned veterans that
• 19:13
  Speaker 7: may have some lessons for the novices here, and no disrespect,
• 19:17
  Speaker 7: but we've seen some novices, some rookies given to Trump
• 19:22
  Speaker 7: hoping that they could just duck the maga politics of
• 19:25
  Speaker 7: America right now, only to find out that's impossible if
• 19:30
  Speaker 7: he wants to come get you, because some of these
• 19:33
  Speaker 7: maga crackdowns are coming for you either way, and surrendering
• 19:37
  Speaker 7: will not make them go away. And the same piece
• 19:40
  Speaker 7: I mentioned, mister Chait writes that winning with Trump is
• 19:42
  Speaker 7: impossible because the relationship itself is lose lose. Attempts to
• 19:46
  Speaker 7: turn a productive connection into an exploitive one create these
• 19:49
  Speaker 7: losses for both sides. That's probably the difference between compromise,
• 19:55
  Speaker 7: which people have to do all the time at work
• 19:57
  Speaker 7: or in life with sometimes disagreeably disagreeable people are situations.
• 20:02
  Speaker 7: The difference between that and countering an extreme threat. For
• 20:07
  Speaker 7: the extreme threat that it is a former FBI chief
• 20:10
  Speaker 7: who prosecuted the mafia, so he knows that Turf has
• 20:14
  Speaker 7: now compared surrendering to Trump's second term tactics to surrendering
• 20:19
  Speaker 7: to mob tactics.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: Veteran FBI director.
• 20:23
  Speaker 7: James Comy, who is now facing yet another Trump sparked
• 20:26
  Speaker 7: probe which looks like retaliation, will let the courts decide.
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: Broke down exactly that comparison here on MSNBC.
• 20:34
  Speaker 8: They must have never seen a mob movie, because you
• 20:37
  Speaker 8: give the mob a piece of your bar. First thing
• 20:39
  Speaker 8: they do is bring their friends in to drink for free.
• 20:41
  Speaker 8: Then they burn it down for the insurance. They will
• 20:44
  Speaker 8: be sorry they made a deal with this administration.
• 20:47
  Speaker 7: They will be sorry, says a public servant who, whatever
• 20:50
  Speaker 7: you think of his choices, has been found across multiple investigations,
• 20:54
  Speaker 7: to be an honest public servant. And he's looked down
• 20:57
  Speaker 7: both roads, even when he had a to work for
• 21:00
  Speaker 7: Trump best he could because he had a ten year
• 21:02
  Speaker 7: FBI term. He's looked down both roads and for the groups,
• 21:07
  Speaker 7: but the power and the money. The better road, even
• 21:11
  Speaker 7: by self interest alone, is holding your ground and fighting,
• 21:13
  Speaker 7: says mister Comy. And the record shows so far that
• 21:17
  Speaker 7: has been more successful. I'll leave this up for a moment.
• 21:21
  Speaker 7: Some of these are logos you may or may not know,
• 21:23
  Speaker 7: but Harvard you know. And the other law firms are
• 21:25
  Speaker 7: the ones who said we'll fight. So far they're winning,
• 21:28
  Speaker 7: and others capitulated from tech bros worried about jail time
• 21:32
  Speaker 7: who are still being hassled, to some of those other
• 21:35
  Speaker 7: entities and bankers and groups.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: Now, I also want to add one more point.
• 21:41
  Speaker 7: This idea of whether you pay lawyers and fight and
• 21:44
  Speaker 7: go for it is not relevant for everyone. There are
• 21:48
  Speaker 7: people who are isolated, people without money to hire a lawyer,
• 21:51
  Speaker 7: let alone a team of lawyers.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: They're just more in survival mode.
• 21:56
  Speaker 7: But for those big organizations, the big businesses, the rich elites,
• 22:01
  Speaker 7: the law firms I mentioned for them, the evidence suggests
• 22:05
  Speaker 7: in these first one hundred and twenty days, fighting back
• 22:07
  Speaker 7: is not just a way to be true to yourselves
• 22:10
  Speaker 7: the career you've chosen, it also looks like the more
• 22:15
  Speaker 7: victorious strategy.
• 22:23
  Speaker 9: The statements are true. Hi again, everybody, it's five o'clock
• 22:26
  Speaker 9: and New York viewers of this program. No, we do
• 22:29
  Speaker 9: not just s gratuitously platform lies about anyone, but especially judges,
• 22:36
  Speaker 9: or intimidations or threats against them. But today we feel
• 22:40
  Speaker 9: that we must show you that and call out harmful
• 22:44
  Speaker 9: rhetoric when we see it. Donald Trump's vicious and ugly
• 22:48
  Speaker 9: attacks against federal judges. As you saw in that sample
• 22:52
  Speaker 9: of the many, many things he said and posted on
• 22:54
  Speaker 9: social media, people who have been ruling against his actions
• 22:58
  Speaker 9: not from a partisan standpoint, but because they are illegal
• 23:00
  Speaker 9: and unconstitutional, for the sole reason, in fact, that they
• 23:05
  Speaker 9: believe the things he has sought to do in his
• 23:07
  Speaker 9: first one hundred and twenty days are unlawful. That tension
• 23:11
  Speaker 9: continues to build. Trump even ratcheted up his attacks in
• 23:14
  Speaker 9: a social media post marking of all Things Memorial Day,
• 23:18
  Speaker 9: calling out judges who he described as quote usay, hating
• 23:22
  Speaker 9: judges who suffer from an ideology that is sick and
• 23:25
  Speaker 9: very dangerous for our country. He then called them quote
• 23:28
  Speaker 9: monsters who want our country to go to hell end
• 23:30
  Speaker 9: quote sir judges appointed by George W. Bush Trump, President
• 23:39
  Speaker 9: Clinton Obama, sorts of presidents from all sorts of parties,
• 23:43
  Speaker 9: calling them quote monsters. This personal animosity and anger and
• 23:50
  Speaker 9: the sentiment it is stoking is having immediate, direct and
• 23:54
  Speaker 9: serious effects on the actual members of the judiciary and
• 23:57
  Speaker 9: their families. New York Times is out with some startling
• 24:00
  Speaker 9: new reporting.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Quote.
• 24:02
  Speaker 9: In the five month period leading up to March first
• 24:04
  Speaker 9: of this year, eighty individual judges have received threats. Then,
• 24:09
  Speaker 9: over the next six weeks, an additional one hundred and
• 24:12
  Speaker 9: sixty two judges receive threats, a dramatic increase. That spike
• 24:16
  Speaker 9: in threats coincided with a flood of harsh rhetoric, often
• 24:20
  Speaker 9: coming from Trump himself, criticizing judges who have ruled against
• 24:24
  Speaker 9: the administration and in some cases, calling on Congress to
• 24:28
  Speaker 9: impeach them.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: To put that said fact.
• 24:31
  Speaker 9: And perspective, the total number of judges threatened this fiscal
• 24:35
  Speaker 9: year two hundred and seventy seven, represents roughly one third
• 24:39
  Speaker 9: of the judiciary. The New York Times got these numbers
• 24:42
  Speaker 9: from a face familiar to this program, Judge Ester Salas,
• 24:46
  Speaker 9: who said she obtained them from the US Marshal Service,
• 24:49
  Speaker 9: which is tasked with overseeing security for the judiciary. But
• 24:53
  Speaker 9: at the moment there are questions about that arrangement. New
• 24:56
  Speaker 9: reporting in the Wall Street Journal finds this quote. Some
• 24:59
  Speaker 9: federal judges are beginning to discuss the idea of managing
• 25:03
  Speaker 9: their own armed security force. The notion came up in
• 25:06
  Speaker 9: a series of closed door meetings in early March, when
• 25:09
  Speaker 9: a group of roughly fifty judges met in Washington or
• 25:12
  Speaker 9: a semi annual meeting of the Judicial Conference. Security Committee.
• 25:16
  Speaker 9: Members at the conference worried that Trump could order the
• 25:19
  Speaker 9: marshals to stand down in retaliation for a decision that
• 25:23
  Speaker 9: didn't go his way. The Marshal Service denied that would happen,
• 25:28
  Speaker 9: saying in a statement this quote, the security of our
• 25:30
  Speaker 9: federal judiciary is a cornerstone of our nation's democracy, and
• 25:35
  Speaker 9: the marshals take that responsibility very seriously. Federal judges make
• 25:38
  Speaker 9: hard decisions based on the rule of law, in large
• 25:41
  Speaker 9: part because the marshals ensure they can make these decisions
• 25:45
  Speaker 9: without fear, intimidation or retaliation. Yet, the idea that judges
• 25:50
  Speaker 9: are even thinking about taking over their security operations and
• 25:55
  Speaker 9: taking oversight of that into their own hands says volumes
• 25:58
  Speaker 9: about where we are in our country right now. It's
• 26:01
  Speaker 9: also where we start the hour of former federal Judge
• 26:03
  Speaker 9: Michael Ludig and US District Court judge for the District
• 26:06
  Speaker 9: of New Jersey Esther Salas. It's a privilege to be
• 26:11
  Speaker 9: here with both of you at the same time. I
• 26:13
  Speaker 9: think a lot of our coverage is shaped, Esther by
• 26:16
  Speaker 9: your sharing of what you went through when your son
• 26:21
  Speaker 9: was murdered. I wonder if you can just level set
• 26:23
  Speaker 9: this conversation with a reality check about what is happening
• 26:27
  Speaker 9: right now to your peers and the judiciary.
• 26:31
  Speaker 5: Well, good evening, Nicole, always a pleasure to see you,
• 26:35
  Speaker 5: and of course, Judge Ludig, I honestly feel as if
• 26:43
  Speaker 5: it's incumbent upon me, as Daniel's mom, to talk about
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: the clear and present dangers that exist. I've talked to
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: you on a number of occasions about my concerns with
• 26:57
  Speaker 5: respect to the inflammatory rhetoric. I've talked to you you
• 27:00
  Speaker 5: about this concept of a bonfire that is just burning,
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: and instead of us trying to squelch it or tamp
• 27:08
  Speaker 5: it down, we're adding accelerants to it.
• 27:12
  Speaker 6: And I continue to feel that way.
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: But I think the numbers support the concern that I
• 27:20
  Speaker 5: have been expressing, and that is that we are seeing
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: these numbers rise.
• 27:26
  Speaker 6: And you know, it.
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: Is irresponsible for people in political power, irresponsible for people
• 27:35
  Speaker 5: with power and large social media platforms to continue to
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: use words that define judges as corrupt or partisan, or
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: monsters or leftist, crazy unconstitutional judges when there's no bases
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: for it, right, And I do believe that you know,
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: it is necessary for me as Daniel's mom to come
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: out and really speak up for justice, to speak up
• 28:08
  Speaker 5: for the rule of law, to defend the Constitution. I
• 28:14
  Speaker 5: feel it necessary now more than ever, when I know
• 28:18
  Speaker 5: what the numbers are saying and I know the risk.
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: I live it every day. Mark lives it every day
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: without our son, our only child, was murdered in our
• 28:30
  Speaker 5: home because of my job. And so for me, as
• 28:36
  Speaker 5: his mother and as an American and as a concerned citizen,
• 28:44
  Speaker 5: I come forward sort of begging, pleading and asking our
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: political leaders to lead responsibly, to lead responsibly. And that
• 28:55
  Speaker 5: doesn't mean agreeing with Judge's rulings, certainly, you know, as
• 29:00
  Speaker 5: Chief Justice Roberts said, there's always been some tension between
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: the branches of government. There always has beens It's as
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: old as the republic. But there's a difference between disagreeing
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: with the ruling and appealing it and utilizing the constitutional
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: framework to appeal us to a higher court and making
• 29:21
  Speaker 5: it personal and calling us names and really villainizing us.
• 29:29
  Speaker 5: And I think it is an absolute dangerous road to
• 29:34
  Speaker 5: be going on right now, and I am just praying
• 29:37
  Speaker 5: that for our political leaders and those in power to
• 29:42
  Speaker 5: tone it down, tone it down. Disagree all you want,
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: but please don't make it personal, because you're inviting people
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: to do us harm.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: Esther.
• 29:56
  Speaker 9: When you saw the message on Monday from the most
• 29:59
  Speaker 9: powerful politician our country calling judges quote monsters who want
• 30:04
  Speaker 9: the country to quote go to hell, did you have
• 30:07
  Speaker 9: any conversations with fellow judges who were scared or worried?
• 30:12
  Speaker 9: Or do you have any ongoing conversations with judges who
• 30:16
  Speaker 9: worry about themselves and their families. I guess in most
• 30:18
  Speaker 9: instances they would worry more about their own children.
• 30:22
  Speaker 5: No, I've been worried for a long time. I've been
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: worried since we started seeing members of Congress calling for
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: impeachment of judges for doing their jobs. That was something
• 30:38
  Speaker 5: that obviously I worried about. I've been worried about the
• 30:43
  Speaker 5: words rogue judges. Rogue judges, I mean Chief Justice Roberts.
• 30:48
  Speaker 5: He called these illegitimate attacks on the judiciary. He called
• 30:53
  Speaker 5: it out in twenty twenty four in his year end report.
• 30:56
  Speaker 5: He said, four illegitimate attacks on the judiciary.
• 31:00
  Speaker 10: Violence.
• 31:01
  Speaker 5: We've seen that, right. We've seen Judge Roamer killed by
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: a man he sentenced fifteen years earlier in Wisconsin. We've
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: seen Judge Wilkinson gunned down in his driveway in Maryland
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: in October of twenty twenty three. So violence, we've seen it. Intimidation,
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: we're seeing it in the form of these pizza doxing
• 31:25
  Speaker 5: that I'm sure we're going to talk a little bit
• 31:27
  Speaker 5: about and how that's being used as psychological warfare against judges.
• 31:32
  Speaker 5: So second was intimidation. Third was the spreading of disinformation.
• 31:37
  Speaker 5: You keep saying over and over again, judges are on
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: constitutional judges are rogues, Judges are crazy leftists, judges, judges
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: are monsters, Judges are this, Judges are that. You keep
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: saying that over and over again. After a while, the
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: American public begins to believe that disinformation and they begin
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: to have and question the justice system.
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: And so that is.
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: An illegitimate attack on judges. Is the spreading of disinformation.
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: And then finally even the threatening to not follow lawfully
• 32:09
  Speaker 5: issued orders by the court. These are four illegitimate attacks
• 32:14
  Speaker 5: called out by our Chief Justice, and we see it,
• 32:17
  Speaker 5: and we're seeing in real time. And so for me,
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: I'm here on your show yet again sort of trying
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: to appeal to people's senses and compassion and you know, civility,
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: and professionalism. And that's why I'm here. I'm here to
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: speak up for justice, to speak up for events like
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: tomorrow's event that we're having at noon Eastern Standard time,
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: nine Pacific and we're talking about the independence of counsel tomorrow.
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: We're going to keep doing these programs, nonpartisan programs, because
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: we need to speak up for justice, we need to
• 33:03
  Speaker 5: speak up for the rule of law, we need to
• 33:06
  Speaker 5: defend our constitution. And so, you know, I've been worried
• 33:11
  Speaker 5: for a long time, and you know, I'm reminded every
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: day when I wake up and the first thing I
• 33:18
  Speaker 5: think about is by Daniel, and the last thing I
• 33:22
  Speaker 5: think about is my Daniel. So I am obviously very
• 33:28
  Speaker 5: concerned for judges all throughout this country, and I just
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: pray that we can start to get back to a
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: place where we can agree to disagree, where we can
• 33:39
  Speaker 5: have civil discourse, and we can all rally around the
• 33:46
  Speaker 5: fact that we're Americans and we live in the greatest country,
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: in my opinion, the greatest country in the world. That's
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: what I'm hoping for, Nicole, That's what I'm hoping for.
• 33:57
  Speaker 11: I want to bring in NBC's Ryan Riley ke Vogel
• 34:00
  Speaker 11: as a New York Times reporter who wrote that article
• 34:02
  Speaker 11: on Paul Walsack and Anthony Coley is former director of
• 34:06
  Speaker 11: the DOJ's Office of Public Affairs under President Biden and
• 34:09
  Speaker 11: an MSNBC political analyst. I want to start with the Christlies, Ryan.
• 34:14
  Speaker 11: We heard the President say he didn't know them, So
• 34:17
  Speaker 11: how did they end up on his radar?
• 34:20
  Speaker 12: Yeah, well, that RNC appearance was a big part of this.
• 34:22
  Speaker 12: And then also more recently there's a Fox News interview
• 34:25
  Speaker 12: that the President's daughter and lar Lara Trump did with
• 34:28
  Speaker 12: the daughter as well and again comparing them to the Trumps,
• 34:31
  Speaker 12: using this line that she alleged that prosecutors used that
• 34:34
  Speaker 12: she claims they called them the Trumps of the South
• 34:38
  Speaker 12: and basically making that direct comparison. And because of Donald
• 34:40
  Speaker 12: Trump's experience in this realm with political political cases cases
• 34:46
  Speaker 12: being brought against him by the federal government, that certainly
• 34:49
  Speaker 12: seems to be an argument He's very eager to sort
• 34:52
  Speaker 12: of take up. We saw it with another case involving
• 34:54
  Speaker 12: a sheriff again this week, it was another person who
• 34:56
  Speaker 12: supported him who we also was able he also pardoned
• 35:01
  Speaker 12: what the government had said during this cases at the
• 35:03
  Speaker 12: christ Lies spend the money on luxury cars, designer close
• 35:06
  Speaker 12: real estate, and travel, and use fraudulent loans to pay
• 35:09
  Speaker 12: back old ones. After spending all the money, Todd Chrisley
• 35:12
  Speaker 12: filed for bankruptcy and walked away with more than twenty
• 35:15
  Speaker 12: million of those frauduy fraudulently obtained loans. The White House
• 35:18
  Speaker 12: set in a statement that the President is always pleased
• 35:21
  Speaker 12: to give well deserving Americans a second chance, especially those
• 35:24
  Speaker 12: who have been unfairly targeted or overly prosecuted by an
• 35:28
  Speaker 12: unjust justice system. So you know now that we have
• 35:32
  Speaker 12: a pardon attorney in place who is also sort of
• 35:34
  Speaker 12: very sympathetic to Donald Trump and has been supportive of
• 35:37
  Speaker 12: the January sixth defendants for instance, as well as a
• 35:41
  Speaker 12: pardon czar in the White House that sort of streamlined
• 35:44
  Speaker 12: a process involving politically connected individuals. At least seems to
• 35:48
  Speaker 12: be up and running in terms of churning these cases
• 35:51
  Speaker 12: over very quickly.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Chris Ryan Riley, thank you so, Anthony. When the President
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: said that they.
• 35:57
  Speaker 11: Had been given a pretty harsh treatment based on what
• 36:00
  Speaker 11: I'm hearing, is that how pardons are typically decided based
• 36:04
  Speaker 11: on what I'm hearing.
• 36:07
  Speaker 6: No, not at all I.
• 36:08
  Speaker 13: Think what we have here, Chris, is we have brazen
• 36:11
  Speaker 13: corruption at the highest level of the of.
• 36:14
  Speaker 6: The Justice Department, of the of the Trump administration.
• 36:18
  Speaker 13: What's so interesting also, as well, is that the presidential
• 36:22
  Speaker 13: pardons are typically like the get out of jail free cards, right,
• 36:26
  Speaker 13: And what Trump is doing here, he understands the value
• 36:30
  Speaker 13: of these things and he's not giving them away for free.
• 36:34
  Speaker 13: He wants to He wants to benefit in some way
• 36:37
  Speaker 13: politically and legally, and that's what we have in both
• 36:40
  Speaker 13: of these cases.
• 36:41
  Speaker 6: I find it.
• 36:42
  Speaker 13: Very interesting to me that he announced the pardon of
• 36:46
  Speaker 13: the Chris Lies just hours after Ken Vogel in The
• 36:50
  Speaker 13: New York Times posted this blockbuster story. And I think, personally,
• 36:54
  Speaker 13: you know, nobody can get into the mind of Donald Trump,
• 36:57
  Speaker 13: but I think they. I think they under stood the
• 37:00
  Speaker 13: political liability that Kin's article poses, and I think they
• 37:05
  Speaker 13: were honestly just trying to get ahead of it to
• 37:07
  Speaker 13: divert attention away from these very hard facts in Ken's
• 37:10
  Speaker 13: blockbuster piece.
• 37:12
  Speaker 11: Anthony, I want to play a little of what the
• 37:14
  Speaker 11: Chrystli's daughter Savannah said on Fox News just ten days ago.
• 37:20
  Speaker 10: Originally they were not going to prosecute because they said
• 37:23
  Speaker 10: it was very weak. They didn't have the evidence that
• 37:26
  Speaker 10: they needed to prosecute that it just it wasn't a case.
• 37:29
  Speaker 10: It took nine years to issue a federal indictment. Both
• 37:32
  Speaker 10: prosecutors were Democrats, they have donated to Democratic candidates, and
• 37:38
  Speaker 10: from at trial.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: We knew it was game over.
• 37:42
  Speaker 11: We should note that the Chrystalies were convicted by a
• 37:45
  Speaker 11: jury in Georgia after a trial that lasted nearly three weeks.
• 37:49
  Speaker 11: That said, they were convicted in twenty twenty two. So
• 37:52
  Speaker 11: she's talking about the DOJ that you worked for. So
• 37:55
  Speaker 11: how would you respond to those allegations.
• 37:59
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I got to.
• 37:59
  Speaker 13: Tell you I worked at Main Justice and this is
• 38:01
  Speaker 13: not even a case that rose to the ranks of
• 38:04
  Speaker 13: the main Justice Department, certainly not in any type of
• 38:07
  Speaker 13: meeting that I was in, where typically if a case
• 38:10
  Speaker 13: generates headlines, you know, it's it's flagged for the senior
• 38:15
  Speaker 13: staff of the Justice Department early on in the morning
• 38:19
  Speaker 13: meetings with the Attorney General. Honestly, I've never heard of
• 38:22
  Speaker 13: this case, and I think what we have here is
• 38:24
  Speaker 13: just people who understand that if they want to get
• 38:27
  Speaker 13: an audience in front of this president, that they just
• 38:30
  Speaker 13: need to they need to echo his language about persecutions
• 38:35
  Speaker 13: despite what the facts are, despite what the law says.
• 38:38
  Speaker 6: And that's what this is really all about. Man.
• 38:40
  Speaker 13: Donald Trump understands that, you know, there's some political benefit
• 38:45
  Speaker 13: for him pardoning these social media stars, right and just
• 38:52
  Speaker 13: hours after he did this, this was the top trending
• 38:54
  Speaker 13: item on social media and he just wants to benefit
• 38:57
  Speaker 13: politically from it.
• 38:58
  Speaker 6: And I think this is really what this is all
• 39:00
  Speaker 6: So let's go.
• 39:01
  Speaker 11: To the reporter with the blockbuster stories.
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: Ken.
• 39:04
  Speaker 11: In the case of Paul Wallsack, You've done a lot
• 39:07
  Speaker 11: of digging on this guy and.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: He pleaded guilty.
• 39:09
  Speaker 11: We should say, what can you tell us about him
• 39:12
  Speaker 11: and how his mother factored into this pardon.
• 39:17
  Speaker 14: Yeah, it was really interesting the part in application, which
• 39:20
  Speaker 14: came in around the time that Trump was inaugurated. It
• 39:24
  Speaker 14: dealt as much with his mother and his mother's political
• 39:26
  Speaker 14: activity as it did with his own crimes and trying
• 39:29
  Speaker 14: to explain them away.
• 39:30
  Speaker 6: As you noted, he did plead guilty.
• 39:32
  Speaker 14: So it's always tricky when you have these folks who
• 39:34
  Speaker 14: are making the claim as a number of the people
• 39:37
  Speaker 14: who have received pardons and commutations from President Trump and
• 39:40
  Speaker 14: his second term have made that they were politically prosecuted
• 39:44
  Speaker 14: because of their support for President Trump. Well, you pleaded guilty,
• 39:49
  Speaker 14: so and that wasn't really a part of the guilty play.
• 39:53
  Speaker 14: So it's interesting to see them raise it now when
• 39:55
  Speaker 14: they know you, as you alluded to that it.
• 39:57
  Speaker 6: Will get traction with Trump.
• 39:59
  Speaker 14: In the case of Elizabeth Fago, who is Paul Wallzac's mother,
• 40:05
  Speaker 14: it was pointed out in his partner application that she
• 40:07
  Speaker 14: had been a major fundraiser for Republicans, including President Trump,
• 40:12
  Speaker 14: raising millions of dollars for the campaigns of these Republicans,
• 40:15
  Speaker 14: hosting at least three fundraisers for President Trump, and even
• 40:19
  Speaker 14: more than that. She they noted in this parton application
• 40:24
  Speaker 14: her involvement in a plot to expose the addiction diary
• 40:30
  Speaker 14: of Ashley Biden in the run up to the twenty
• 40:32
  Speaker 14: twenty election. That's interesting because that plot actually drew FBI scrutiny,
• 40:37
  Speaker 14: and ultimately two people who were involved with it, who
• 40:40
  Speaker 14: actually brought the diary to a fundraiser at Elizabeth Foggo's house,
• 40:44
  Speaker 14: pleaded guilty in that case. So, nonetheless, they seemed to
• 40:48
  Speaker 14: think that flagging this as something that she was involved
• 40:53
  Speaker 14: in would attract attention from President Trump and potentially make
• 40:57
  Speaker 14: the case that they're trying to make here that they
• 41:00
  Speaker 14: successfully made here that Paul Wallzac was prosecuted because of
• 41:06
  Speaker 14: the political activity and support for Trump from his mother.
• 41:10
  Speaker 11: Let me ask you a little bit more about what
• 41:12
  Speaker 11: you said about the pardon application, because part of what
• 41:14
  Speaker 11: you wrote is this, It s ingested that Donald Trump Junior,
• 41:18
  Speaker 11: as well as Kimberly Gilfoyle and other Trump allies supported
• 41:21
  Speaker 11: his clemency. They all agreed, according to the application, that
• 41:24
  Speaker 11: the only reason mister Waalzac was prosecuted criminally was that
• 41:29
  Speaker 11: he was the son of a prominent Trump supporter.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Do they have any evidence at all of that?
• 41:38
  Speaker 14: I mean, there's none that I was aware of that
• 41:40
  Speaker 14: was cited in that part in application. There is sort
• 41:43
  Speaker 14: of generally this idea that the IRS in particular looks
• 41:47
  Speaker 14: for high profile people to criminally prosecute to make an
• 41:50
  Speaker 14: example of. And so the argument here would seem to
• 41:54
  Speaker 14: be that he was high profile Paul Waalzac because of
• 41:57
  Speaker 14: his mother, not necessarily because of him. It's a bit
• 42:01
  Speaker 14: of an attenuated, maybe even you could say tortured case,
• 42:05
  Speaker 14: but nonetheless it does really resonate with this argument that
• 42:10
  Speaker 14: Anthony and you have laid out or this theme that
• 42:14
  Speaker 14: Trump is looking for people to pardon or grant clemency too,
• 42:18
  Speaker 14: who are supporters of his who have made this case
• 42:21
  Speaker 14: that he has made about his own prosecutions, that they
• 42:23
  Speaker 14: were politically motivated. In fact, I'll even throw in one
• 42:26
  Speaker 14: more detail on the Chrislies part and application. It actually
• 42:30
  Speaker 14: links their their prosecution to prosecutors who have connections to
• 42:35
  Speaker 14: Fawnie Willis, the Fulton County district attorney who prosecuted Trump
• 42:40
  Speaker 14: and some of his supporters on the election on the
• 42:44
  Speaker 14: election the twenty twenty election interference case.
• 42:47
  Speaker 6: So you see what the buttons.
• 42:50
  Speaker 14: Are that folks who are seeking pardons think that they
• 42:53
  Speaker 14: need to press to get Trump's attention, and in a
• 42:55
  Speaker 14: lot of these cases they're right, you.
• 42:58
  Speaker 13: Know, Anthony, let me jump in, go ahead, let me
• 43:01
  Speaker 13: jump in here if I can. So important thing in
• 43:04
  Speaker 13: Kenneth's peace is that number one Walzach pleaded guilty. He
• 43:08
  Speaker 13: was not found guilty by a jury of his peers.
• 43:11
  Speaker 13: He was not found guilty because of some actions of
• 43:13
  Speaker 13: some type of radical judge. He pleaded guilty voluntarily. The
• 43:18
  Speaker 13: second thing to remember here is this is not a
• 43:21
  Speaker 13: victimless crime. This guy was accused of stealing money not
• 43:25
  Speaker 13: just from rich lawyers, but from nurses and nursing home age.
• 43:30
  Speaker 13: These are hourly employees who thought that they were paying
• 43:34
  Speaker 13: money into Social Security so that they could retire with dignity.
• 43:38
  Speaker 6: I mean, this is supposed to be Donald Trump's.
• 43:41
  Speaker 15: Base, but what we have here is a president, we
• 43:44
  Speaker 15: have a White House who says he's had the government
• 43:47
  Speaker 15: by the people and for the people, but really he
• 43:51
  Speaker 15: has a government for the rich and the powerful.
• 43:53
  Speaker 6: And that's what both of these partons prove.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: There's something else that strikes me.
• 43:58
  Speaker 11: Whether it's a pardon or parole, one of the key
• 44:01
  Speaker 11: elements has typically been for a very long time, remorse. Right,
• 44:05
  Speaker 11: you have to say I did something wrong and I'm
• 44:08
  Speaker 11: sorry I did it.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: We don't see that here.
• 44:10
  Speaker 11: In fact, we see the exact opposite. We see people
• 44:13
  Speaker 11: who say that they are the victims that the system
• 44:16
  Speaker 11: is being weaponized to use against them. Speak to that
• 44:20
  Speaker 11: change and if you will, Anthony, what the consequences are
• 44:23
  Speaker 11: for our justice system.
• 44:26
  Speaker 6: You're exactly right.
• 44:27
  Speaker 13: Typically when we see pardons, it is because there has
• 44:29
  Speaker 13: been some type of miscarriage of justice. Right, Typically people
• 44:33
  Speaker 13: admit guilt. We don't have that here. We literally have
• 44:37
  Speaker 13: with Wallzac somebody who pleaded guilty voluntarily to her crime.
• 44:41
  Speaker 13: And so the takeaway from his is that you have
• 44:45
  Speaker 13: a two tiered system of justice where you have government
• 44:49
  Speaker 13: for the rich and the powerful, for people who have access.
• 44:52
  Speaker 6: To money, but not for everyone else.
• 44:55
  Speaker 13: And I mean, it's really a sad state of affairs.
• 44:59
  Speaker 6: But honestly, Chris, I think it is a prelude of
• 45:03
  Speaker 6: what is to come with Donald Trump.
• 45:05
  Speaker 13: I mean, Ryan Riley has reported, among others in the
• 45:08
  Speaker 13: DJ Press Corps about the decimation of the Public Integrity
• 45:12
  Speaker 13: Section within the criminal vision of the Justice Department. Two
• 45:16
  Speaker 13: of those attorneys prosecuted at Waalzac. When I was there,
• 45:19
  Speaker 13: there were more than thirty lawyers within the career staff
• 45:24
  Speaker 13: of the Public Integrity Section. Now, according to the Washington Post,
• 45:28
  Speaker 13: there are less than five. And then there are reports
• 45:31
  Speaker 13: that a key policy that requires US attorneys across the
• 45:37
  Speaker 13: country to check and many times get approval from the
• 45:41
  Speaker 13: career staffles before approven public corruption cases, that they won't
• 45:45
  Speaker 13: even be able to do that if this policy change
• 45:48
  Speaker 13: comes through.
• 45:48
  Speaker 6: So it's a sas state of affairs in our nation.
• 45:51
  Speaker 6: Is justice system