Latest / WCHS Network Podcasts / Ask the Expert – Gareeb Dental Group: Four-Handed Dentistry, Dental Assistants, and Halloween Candy Tips

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Ask the Expert – Gareeb Dental Group: Four-Handed Dentistry, Dental Assistants, and Halloween Candy Tips · WCHS Network Podcasts

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  Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed on this program do not
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  Speaker 1: necessarily reflect the views and opinions of 580 WCHS, its employees,
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  Speaker 1: or WVRC Media. And a very pleasant good morning to you.
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  Speaker 2: You are listening to The Voice of Charleston 580 WCHS.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for tuning in on this, what
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  Speaker 2: are we on? We're on a Tuesday morning in the
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  Speaker 2: city of Charleston in the state of West Virginia.
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  Speaker 1: You're not here over there? Yeah, I don't know what's
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  Speaker 1: going on then. I can hear perfectly. You need to
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: pull the mic probably a little closer to you, Dr. Garib.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: There we go. Probably should have done that before we
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  Speaker 1: went on the air, right? No, sure. Sounded looking good.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome so much for the show this morning. As you
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  Speaker 2: can tell, our experts this morning on Ask the Expert
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  Speaker 2: is Garib Dental Group. We have in studio with us
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  Speaker 2: this morning, Dr. Stephen is here and Dr. Carson is
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  Speaker 2: with us. And they are from the Garib Dental Group online, garibdentalgroup.com, G-H-A-R-E-E-B, garibdentalgroup.com.
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  Speaker 2: We'll give you more information as we go along here today,
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  Speaker 2: but we appreciate you tuning in and listening to us
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  Speaker 2: this morning. And I missed the last show that we
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: were here together. I think Jeff Jenkins handled that show,
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  Speaker 2: so I haven't.
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  Speaker 1: Seen you guys in a while.
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  Speaker 3: You and I were absent, and Dr. Henley and Jeff
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  Speaker 3: were able to knock it out of the park.
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  Speaker 1: There we go. How did that go?
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  Speaker 4: I got a few phone calls that said, man, probably
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  Speaker 4: the best radio show I've ever heard in my life.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness. Yeah, there you go. I believe it. Excellent.
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  Speaker 3: Nothing offers from larger markets. I mean, we might lose him.
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  Speaker 4: Spotify did call, but I said, you know, I have
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  Speaker 4: a day job. I can't leave my patients.
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  Speaker 1: You can't do that unless you offer up that Rogan money.
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  Speaker 1: You're not going anywhere.
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  Speaker 2: That's about what it would take. But if you're out there,
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  Speaker 2: we have a lot of things we're going to talk
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  Speaker 2: about this morning. But if there's anything that you have
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  Speaker 2: questions about, about dental hygiene for you or a loved one,
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  Speaker 2: for a child, anything along those lines, something might be
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  Speaker 2: a little bit. outside the box you're trying to find
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  Speaker 2: an answer to or something that's, hey, you have a cavity,
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  Speaker 2: it really hurts and you're wondering what to do next.
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  Speaker 2: Whatever it is from the most basic questions all the
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  Speaker 2: way up to something more advanced. If you want to
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  Speaker 2: call in this morning and get some advice from the experts,
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  Speaker 2: we have two dentists right here in the office that
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  Speaker 2: can give you some advice and put you on the
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  Speaker 2: right path. at Gareeb Dental Group. So give us a
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  Speaker 2: call this morning, 304-345-5858, 304-345-5858. You can text 304-935-5008. Now,
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  Speaker 2: every time that we do one of these shows, usually
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  Speaker 2: I get up in the morning and I get some
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  Speaker 2: copy points that we're going to talk about, some different
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  Speaker 2: things along those lines.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm really interested. Dr.
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  Speaker 2: Carson sent me one this morning. I'm interested to find,
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  Speaker 2: and we've talked about this briefly before, but I just
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  Speaker 2: love the terminology. We're going to find out more this
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  Speaker 2: morning about four-handed dentistry. four-handed dentistry.
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  Speaker 1: It's a monster.
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  Speaker 2: Around Halloween time, I don't know.
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  Speaker 3: And once in a while, you can convert to six.
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  Speaker 1: Been there, done that. I have to admit to you,
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  Speaker 1: I think I got this this morning.
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  Speaker 2: I can't remember when, but I got it in the shade,
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  Speaker 2: like I read it first in the shade of my phone,
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  Speaker 2: you know, so I like pulled it down in the notifications.
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  Speaker 2: And so it's, you know, they kind of trinicated a
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  Speaker 2: little bit where you don't read the whole thing. And
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  Speaker 2: I admit that I saw the word telepathic in there
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  Speaker 2: and I'm like, what in the world are we going
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  Speaker 2: to be talking about telepathy this morning? So, uh, but
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  Speaker 2: it's interesting because, uh, We'll talk a little bit more
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  Speaker 2: about this. But when you talk about four-handed dentistry, what
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  Speaker 2: is that?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. So four-handed dentistry is when one dentist grows an
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  Speaker 4: extra pair of hands. They're actually a monster. It's quite scary.
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  Speaker 3: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: One more joke thing because what I imagined when I
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  Speaker 2: saw this was like you with a doctor's coat on
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  Speaker 2: with extra sleeves and like Dr. Greaves standing behind you
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  Speaker 2: or the other way around, whichever, with their arms stuffed
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  Speaker 2: through it as well. So you have like the doctor.
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  Speaker 1: Awkwardness going on. Pretty much, yes. I agree.
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  Speaker 4: There is some gesticulation happening in front of us. Dale
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  Speaker 4: is like showing us what.
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  Speaker 1: That would look like. It's awesome. It's good.
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  Speaker 2: No.
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  Speaker 4: So technically speaking, forehand dentistry is the dentist plus the
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  Speaker 4: dental assistant. And so that's what I kind of want
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  Speaker 4: to talk about and kind of show that it can
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  Speaker 4: be telepathic. Now, why did I. So the whole premise
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  Speaker 4: of what I kind of sent you was surprising things
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  Speaker 4: that the lay person or the public might not know
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  Speaker 4: about how we do things in the dental field. Because
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  Speaker 4: last night I was leaving the middle school playoffs, which
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  Speaker 4: my daughter's team unfortunately lost horseman. The women's girls team lost, unfortunately,
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  Speaker 4: to a great John Adams team.
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  Speaker 1: Anyway, moving on.
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  Speaker 4: So we are driving home from that event. And I
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  Speaker 4: said the word reprise, like I'm going to reprise a
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  Speaker 4: role or something. And my wife went, that's not how
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  Speaker 4: you say that. And I go, what do you mean
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  Speaker 4: that's not how you say that? So the word R-E-P-R-I-S-E,
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  Speaker 4: she says it's reprise.
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  Speaker 1: Did you all know this?
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  Speaker 4: No.
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  Speaker 1: I've always gone by with reprise as well. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: So apparently it's like middle French. So it should be
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  Speaker 4: reprise now. She looked it up and sure enough, yes,
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  Speaker 4: you can say reprise as well. So I was like,
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  Speaker 4: that's a very surprising thing that I had no idea.
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  Speaker 4: What other things that I don't know or the lay
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  Speaker 4: public might not know that is really interesting to us,
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  Speaker 4: that is kind of normal to us, like that, that
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  Speaker 4: we should know. And so this whole 400 dentistry thing
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  Speaker 4: I thought was like, that's just amazing that I just
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  Speaker 4: look up at my dental assistant sometimes and they know
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  Speaker 4: exactly what I need. Or I just hold up my
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  Speaker 4: hand and they just put the instrument in my hand.
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  Speaker 4: I go, how did they know what I needed because
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  Speaker 4: of the specific instrumentation that I might need for a
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  Speaker 4: certain procedure or what have you? And so I kind
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  Speaker 4: of want Dr. Stephen to walk through how he and Wendy,
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  Speaker 4: how long has Wendy worked with you?
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  Speaker 3: She has, let's see, I've been at my office since 05.
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  Speaker 3: So That's what's over 20 years now. So she was
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  Speaker 3: there when I bought my practice.
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  Speaker 1: That is amazing.
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  Speaker 3: So yeah, Wendy's been in dentistry longer than I have,
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  Speaker 3: clinical dentistry for sure. And I was just talking with
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  Speaker 3: my dad about this the other day and his longtime assistant, Kathy,
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  Speaker 3: we were just talking about how long Kathy had been
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  Speaker 3: there and how it's important for our new associates to
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  Speaker 3: learn from seasoned dental assistants.
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  Speaker 1: And my father trained me.
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  Speaker 3: Was my mentor and the greatest influence I have in dentistry. Um,
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  Speaker 3: but I told him, I was like, you know, dad,
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  Speaker 3: you trained me a lot, but you know, who else
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  Speaker 3: trained me was Kathy when I was in polka. And
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  Speaker 3: then Wendy, when I bought my practice, the assistant, very,
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  Speaker 3: very experienced dental assistant, um, can help a young dentist
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  Speaker 3: in figuring things out because they, as Dr. Henley was saying,
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  Speaker 3: they know what instruments to give you sometimes, uh, know
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  Speaker 3: before you do what, what you want, what you want,
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  Speaker 3: what you need. And, uh, and yeah, you know, even today,
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  Speaker 3: you know, Wendy's assisting me or, or either my, even
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  Speaker 3: my other assistants too, they'll give me a, an instrument
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  Speaker 3: that I'm not even thinking of like, well, that looks good.
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  Speaker 3: I'll try that out.
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  Speaker 1: You know, that worked really well. How did you know?
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  Speaker 3: So yeah, it is, it is quite a, quite a amazing,
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  Speaker 3: you know, working relationship that you can learn from each
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  Speaker 3: other and, and help to provide the patient the best
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  Speaker 3: care possible for sure.
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  Speaker 1: Exactly.
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  Speaker 4: And one more point is that sometimes whenever we're working,
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  Speaker 4: we are focusing so hard on that procedure. whether we're
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  Speaker 4: suturing intently and we can't, if we look away or
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  Speaker 4: if we were like, I need that one instrument. There
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  Speaker 4: are times where our dental assistant will save our skin
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  Speaker 4: because we can't look away or we're trying to keep
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  Speaker 4: the tongue away from some tooth or what have you.
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  Speaker 4: And so there are times in which if I were
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  Speaker 4: to look away, it might ruin something or the impression
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  Speaker 4: might not be done right or that digital impression rather.
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  Speaker 4: And so there are times where they have saved my
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  Speaker 4: skin in a way. And one quick story about Wendy.
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  Speaker 4: I don't know if I've told this on air before,
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  Speaker 4: but when I was a young dentist back in 2016, man,
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  Speaker 4: I'm old now. Anyway, back in 2016, I was a
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  Speaker 4: new dentist, probably the first week or so, maybe the
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  Speaker 4: first day I'm on the job. And I'm doing some procedure.
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  Speaker 4: I'm doing a filling. And I know how to do
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  Speaker 4: a filling. I've done many fillings at that point. I
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  Speaker 4: just was not, you know, a seasoned dentist, not super experienced.
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  Speaker 4: And so still a young guy. And I kept reaching
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  Speaker 4: over across Wendy, grabbing instruments. You know, grabbing the filling material,
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  Speaker 4: grabbing the plunger, you know, grabbing things that help create
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  Speaker 4: this filling. Well, all of a sudden, I get a
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  Speaker 4: slap in the hand. And I'm like– and I look
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  Speaker 4: up and go, oh, no.
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  Speaker 1: Is everything okay? She goes, let me do my job, Dr. Henley.
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  Speaker 1: I'm like– This is my space. Yes, ma'am.
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  Speaker 4: And so it really established some good rapport because obviously
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  Speaker 4: she has been doing that longer than– probably I was
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  Speaker 4: alive at that point. And so she– She has such
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  Speaker 4: experience of just in knowledge base, just being with all
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  Speaker 4: these other practitioners and knowing– seeing mistakes happen, seeing success happen.
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  Speaker 4: And so she knows what can be a good team.
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  Speaker 4: And so, I mean, I love that story about Wendy,
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  Speaker 4: how she slapped my hand. Appropriately, I needed it, right,
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  Speaker 4: because I needed that opening. I didn't know what I
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  Speaker 4: didn't know because I was so young.
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  Speaker 3: But I think– Well, it's also worth mentioning back to
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  Speaker 3: the four-handed dentistry discussion because that's four-handed as opposed to
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  Speaker 3: two-handed dentistry.
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  Speaker 4: Yep.
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  Speaker 1: And Dr.
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  Speaker 3: Henley was just describing how he was still fresh out
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  Speaker 3: of school pretty much. And that's what we did in school.
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  Speaker 3: And that's something else, surprisingly, that a lot of patients
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  Speaker 3: may not know. But your dentist for two to four
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  Speaker 3: years in dental school, however long they clinically practiced in school,
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  Speaker 3: they worked on their own for the most part.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, good point.
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  Speaker 3: You know, we only we had to assist ourselves. And
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  Speaker 3: when I got to dental school, that was shocking to me.
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  Speaker 3: Because I was used to growing up watching my father
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  Speaker 3: have an assistant.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, interesting.
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  Speaker 3: And so I get into clinic and I'm like, okay,
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  Speaker 3: who's going to help me out?
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  Speaker 1: Like, oh, wait, it's just me? How can I do this?
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  Speaker 3: Because you are, as Dr. Henley is saying, in dentistry,
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  Speaker 3: something else the public may not appreciate or realize, but
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  Speaker 3: you are hyper-focused on what you're doing in a very
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  Speaker 3: small space with a patient that's moving. And so you
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  Speaker 3: have to manage keeping everything very dry because ironically– We
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  Speaker 3: work in the wet field of the mouth, but everything
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  Speaker 3: that we use works best in a dry field. So
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  Speaker 3: you have to help, have to keep things dry. Patients
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  Speaker 3: have to hold suction for you if you don't have
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  Speaker 3: an assistant with you. So yeah, I get into clinic
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  Speaker 3: and I'm just thinking, how am I going to do
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  Speaker 3: this properly? Because I know real dentists have assistants. So
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  Speaker 3: there were times in our training where we could practice
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  Speaker 3: with an assistant that was the school provided assistant for us.
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  Speaker 3: And those were special days as a student because you
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  Speaker 3: would really schedule your bigger procedures on that day where
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  Speaker 3: your assistants can help you out more effectively. But even
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  Speaker 3: to this day, there are times when we're shorthanded and
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  Speaker 3: we can all fall back on those days in dental
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  Speaker 3: school and we can We can get by on our own.
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  Speaker 3: And in fact, there are some dentists that choose to
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  Speaker 3: practice without assistance. I'm not sure how they do that.
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  Speaker 1: How do they do that?
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  Speaker 3: There are those out there that do it. But assistants
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  Speaker 3: really make things much more efficient, much more pleasant experience
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  Speaker 3: for the patient as well and get things through the
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  Speaker 3: procedure quicker for us. So we rely heavily on all
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  Speaker 3: of our assistants and they're all great. And then we
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  Speaker 3: could also talk about going to the next level of
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  Speaker 3: six-handed dentistry, which is what we really like to do
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  Speaker 3: that sometimes. And that's when you have two assistants assisting
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  Speaker 3: the doctor. When you do have a difficult procedure, I'll
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  Speaker 3: tell Wendy or whoever is helping me out, say, hey,
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  Speaker 3: we're going to grab another assistant. We need another set
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  Speaker 3: of hands in here. And that really can move things
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  Speaker 3: along a lot better and get a lot of amazing
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  Speaker 3: things done.
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  Speaker 1: I've been on the show a long time with you guys.
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  Speaker 2: The one thing you always talk about is The full
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  Speaker 2: effect of your of your office, that the fact from
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  Speaker 2: the very front of the office to your assistants that
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  Speaker 2: you have with you, I mean, you invest time in
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  Speaker 2: your people, you know, and to make sure they have
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  Speaker 2: the good people there. And when you talk about assistants
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  Speaker 2: that are with you, you mentioned a minute ago, like
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  Speaker 2: when you're when you're young, they can help you out,
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  Speaker 2: you know, making sure, you know, make sure that you
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  Speaker 2: get the right things timely, something maybe even be like, oh,
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  Speaker 2: don't you mean this?
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  Speaker 1: Who knows?
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  Speaker 2: I mean, with enough experience, something like along those lines.
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  Speaker 2: But I imagine also when you've worked with somebody long enough,
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  Speaker 2: they might be able to arrest your muscle memory as well.
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  Speaker 2: Like if you're doing something that you're used to doing
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  Speaker 2: the same thing over and over again, but this patient
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  Speaker 2: maybe is a little different in some way. You have
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  Speaker 2: somebody you're working with for a long time. They're not
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: hesitant to be like, oh, doctor, no, this is– remember this.
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  Speaker 2: We have to do it this way this one time
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: or whatever it might be. Having a trusting working relationship
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  Speaker 2: with someone that you help with. I mean that– in
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  Speaker 2: any medical situation, it seems like that would be an
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  Speaker 2: idea and the fact that you guys put such focus
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  Speaker 2: on that. has to have another level of confidence that
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  Speaker 2: folks have, your patients as well as you as doctors.
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely. Like you say, it goes from whomever is answering
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  Speaker 3: the phones to whoever is working on the patients. From
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: start to finish, we all rely on one another to, again,
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: deliver the highest quality care to the patients that we
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: can from start to finish. So for sure, that is
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  Speaker 3: a great point.
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  Speaker 4: And one of my dental assistants has been doing this
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  Speaker 4: longer than I've been alive. Her name is Brenda, and
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  Speaker 4: she was there. uh, prior to me buying the practice.
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  Speaker 4: I think she's, she was at, uh, she was at
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  Speaker 4: my practice about 20 years prior to me buying it.
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  Speaker 4: And then she was somewhere else out of high school.
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  Speaker 4: And so she's been doing this her whole life. And it's,
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  Speaker 4: it's funny the things that she'll tell me about how
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  Speaker 4: she was raised. I say raised, but like raised in dentistry, dipping, uh,
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  Speaker 4: doing these radiographs and dipping them in the chemicals and
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: getting your hands stained. And I'm like, well, I don't
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  Speaker 4: I saw a PowerPoint about that once.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, you're such a young man.
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  Speaker 1: We're all digital now. I am so young.
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  Speaker 2: I remember the days of- It's like me telling people
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: about cart machines. Yeah, it's like me telling employees about
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: cart machines. Back in the day when we had cart machines,
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: we were like these eight-track traits. What's an eight-track tape?
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  Speaker 1: Oh, yes. Well, I've seen a PowerPoint of them before.
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  Speaker 1: Just kidding.
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  Speaker 4: So you get these fun anecdotes from these dental assistants
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  Speaker 4: that have been around, and they go, oh, my goodness.
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  Speaker 4: Thank goodness we have this now or that now. But
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  Speaker 4: what's really fun is that Brenda yesterday- I ended up
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  Speaker 4: showing her something. I forgot what it was, but I
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: showed her something new that was kind of up and
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: coming in our field. And she goes, man, I learned
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  Speaker 4: something new every day in this field. And she's been
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  Speaker 4: doing this longer than I've been alive. And she says
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  Speaker 4: that so often, especially with how new and technologically advanced,
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: but new things that we're trying to move along in
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  Speaker 4: our industry, such as the digital impression, such as doing
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: milling in our office, such as having a lab in
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  Speaker 4: your office, right, Dr.
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  Speaker 1: Stephen?
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  Speaker 4: So there are things that we do that back in the,
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  Speaker 4: let's just say back in the 90s would have been
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  Speaker 4: unheard of. In the 80s, it would have been science fiction.
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  Speaker 4: And so here we're just doing, we're doing science fiction currently,
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  Speaker 4: but it's just called modern dentistry. So it's just really
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  Speaker 4: cool walking along with our dental assistants that have kind
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  Speaker 4: of seen seen it all, I guess.
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  Speaker 3: And that's, uh, to that point, Sean, that's one of
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  Speaker 3: my favorite quotes that he has, uh, our lab technician
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: in our office.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Um, he's like, man, we're.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: Living in the future. Like this stuff we're doing right now,
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: we're living in the future. That is Sean, man. And like,
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: you're right, man, we are living in the future.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: This is amazing.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: So yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's come, come a very
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: long way. And, uh, and back to the tele, uh, telepathic, um,
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: type of, uh, element to it. Um, it's, it's very, uh,
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: it can be very hard to train new assistants because
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: now we are more seasoned dentists, not the young guys anymore.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: I'm so old now.
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: And, and it can, and we forget how much, how
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: well we work together with whom, with whomever we work with.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: So when I have a new trainee coming in, I
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: have to slow down a little bit and think, okay,
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: I need to start saying what we're doing out loud
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: because when you're working with someone long enough, It's just
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: that you don't really have to talk much.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: And so it's easy for someone. It's hard for someone
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: to observe and to really absorb what's going on. So
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: so that is something else that in training new people,
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: the the telepathic element needs to be voiced at times, too.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: So I have to remind myself of that.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: And I, of course, get into the weeds way too often.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: But that makes sense.
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: Especially with like dental students, uh, that shadow us or
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: students in general that shadow us or just new dental assistants,
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: I will say, all right, now I'm going to place
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: this chemical on the tooth because this is what it does.
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: And of course my dental assistants are like, he says
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: this way too often. We don't need to know all this,
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: you know, like just, just ask for it instead of
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: telling us everything that you're doing, you know.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: Because I, I just like to teach. Right.
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: So I think some people want to get in the weeds.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Um, others don't. So it just depends. Yeah.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Is there, is there any challenge with, um, Because you guys,
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: I know that you pride yourself on your staff and
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: things along those lines. As you learn things that is
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: continuing education, and then when you do have to onboard
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: new staff, do you ever find it like, There's a
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: gap there because you haven't had to train in so
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: long because your people have come along with you on
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: the journey. And so suddenly now you're like, oh, wait
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: a minute, I have to teach somebody how to do
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: this now or I have to show them how to
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: do this now. That's not somebody's been with me for
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: five years or 10 years or whatever it might be.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Is that I know that's just how it works. But
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: if you ever run across that because because you're living
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: in the future, there's always something new to teach.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: Right. And somebody's been on the ride with you.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: And and that is part of having a team that
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: knows each other very well and does their job very well.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: It's.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: It does slow things down when you need to, um,
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: for everyone to say, Oh, you know what? Um, we
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: don't just do it this way and assume that everyone
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: knows what's going on. We do need to talk about
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: the steps that it takes to go through, talk about
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: where we've come from and why we do certain things. So, um,
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: it is, um, it is a, a, a challenge when
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: someone comes in, uh, to, to really take the time
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: to do it the right way. But, uh, but yeah,
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: we have to slow down and do that. And, You
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: got to bring them up to speed a little bit
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: because also you have every dental office, as we've mentioned before,
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: has their own personality, has their own systems. Even though
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: we're all a dental group, each office is a little
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: bit different. So when an employee may come from even
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: within dentistry and have been working for a very long time,
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: they have to then relearn the.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Way that we do what we do.
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: So there is definitely an element of that training for
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: sure that we try to accomplish, but we have to
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: consciously do it.
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: I was just speaking with a dentist down, I think,
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: in the Beckley area. He's a younger guy that purchased
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: a practice not too long ago. And he is just
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: now converting from paper to digital, to having a digital
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: chart on a computer. And he was kind of asking
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: me some questions of like this or that. And how
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: do you train your staff? And I go, I have
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: no idea. I've never had paper. I don't know what
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: I don't know about that conversion. But what I do
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: know is that it's better.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: It is a big step. We did that.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: That was when my first year out of school started
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: transitioning dad's office to digital. And there's a period of
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: time where you have to double document, and it's a
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: challenge for sure. So I feel for that individual, even
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: though you assume that most everyone has done that. There
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: are definitely offices that haven't. It doesn't mean that necessarily
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: that it's– inferior by any means, just a different way
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: of doing things. But it is hard to make that transition.
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it kind of is funny because when I took
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: over the practice in Kanawha City, all the paper charts
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: were actually in behind the front desk and like these
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: huge cabinets. And I'm like, what's in these cabinets? They're like, oh,
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: paper charts. I'm like, aren't we all digital?
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: They said, yes.
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: I'm like, let's move these to the basement. Like there's
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: no need to have them up here. And so we
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: did it.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: It's like the it's your security blanket. You know, you've
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: been doing it for, my dad had done it for
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: 30 years.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: I'm cold.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Cover me in charts.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: And like, we're just going to have these charts here
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: just in case we need them. That makes no sense.
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: It never happens, but just in case, you know, so yeah.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: So moving them to storage is a good thing. So we,
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: we finally, finally did that. When I bought my practice,
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: we had to convert that and I kept all the
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: files for a long period of time in storage. And, yeah,
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: it's definitely a transition for sure.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and do this.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: We're about 15 minutes until the top of the hour.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and take our break. When we come back,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: we still have plenty of time. To talk to Dr.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: Stephen and Dr. Carson from Garib Dental Group, you can
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: give us a call this morning, 304-345-5858. You can text 304-935-5008.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: You're listening to Ask the Expert. I'm Dale Cooper on
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: 580 WCHS, the voice of Charleston.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Welcome back.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: You're listening to Ask the Expert, WCHS, the voice of Charleston.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: In the studio with me this morning, Dr. Carson Henley
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: is here from Gareeb Dental Group and Dr. Stephen Gareeb
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: is here from Gareeb Dental Group. You can give us
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: a call this morning, 304-345-5858, 304-345-5858. You can text in
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: questions to 304-935-5008. Talking this morning about dental hygiene and
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: by way of a lot of ways through the dental
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: assistants and the different things that how they help out.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: And does that have to do with the microsurgery as well?
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: I wondered it was sort of they spend all day
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: doing microsurgery was was one of the copy points he
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: sent me.
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: Well, something funny is that I have a neighbor who
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: is a cardiothoracic surgeon and we always talk about surgery.
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: And obviously he saves lives. So I think there's a
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: difference there. And we do save lives, but not on
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: a daily basis.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Not every surgery.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Not every.
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So he will actually open up and do major things.
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: But what he does is he can like look at
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: things and it's the size of a body, right? Whenever
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: we open up something, it's the size of millimeters. And
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: so there are times I'm looking, I'm like, I can't
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: see that very well. I might need some magnification. So
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: I have to bring out these things called loops that
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: help us magnify. And so when a tooth is the
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: size of maybe 10 millimeters, you can magnify it to
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: the size of a baseball. And so sometimes you need
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: that magnification to make sure you're not missing anything. whether
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: that's with fillings or crowns or bridges or veneers, high-end
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: cosmetic stuff.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: I know whenever Dr.
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: Stephen is doing some high-end cosmetic stuff, whenever I'm walking
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: in on a Friday, I'll just randomly walk into his office.
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: It's just the funnest thing I ever do. I walk in,
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: and he's in there with his huge loops, and he
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: looks up at me like this alien.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: I'm like, Dr.
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: Stephen, are you doing some high-end cosmetic work? He goes, yes, sir,
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: I am.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: How did you know?
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: So it's the telltale giveaway for me is that he
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: is wearing his loops.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but the conversation about microsurgery is when you think
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: of microsurgery in medicine or surgery in medicine in general,
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: you are talking about a very delicate procedure that the
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: surgeon is likely in an operating room working under high
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: magnification lenses. And truthfully, as Dr. Henley's saying we don't
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: want to conflate things and compare what we do to
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: brain surgery.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: We save lives.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: However, everything that we do is there are certain dentists
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: that every procedure that they do, they do under high
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: magnification lenses. So technically what we do day in and
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: day out is a microsurgery type of procedure because we
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: are working with such fine detail. Now, fortunately, we don't
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: have to surgically expose the site. Generally, we just have
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: the patient open the mouth and we're there and we
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: do what we need to do. But it's very small,
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: fine detail work. So if you get down to the
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: nuts and bolts of it, dentistry itself is technically a
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: microsurgical type of procedure, everything that we do.
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: And what's cool beyond that is sometimes you can't see
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: what you're doing.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you want to say that.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: No, no, no. So what I mean is– I'm closing
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: my eyes.
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying we don't see what we're doing.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: I'm saying sometimes.
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: There's calculus or tartar that's underneath the gum tissue that
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: you literally cannot see, and you're not going to open
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: up the gum tissue just to see. You do that sometimes,
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: but not normally. So you actually have to use your
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: tactile sense to actually see how things are going.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: And I think of that many times. Think about endodontics,
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: root canals. We are working inside of a tooth, and
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: we cannot see. We can only feel, or our radiographs
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: or x-rays can tell us where we are. And I'm
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: not sure— If there's interventional radiology in medicine that the
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: interventional radiologist goes through vessels and veins and cardiac tissues
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: to guided by radiography, but I'm not sure what else
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: in medicine is like that. There are plenty of examples,
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: but that is something we do routinely is work kind
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: of in a blind field. As you're saying, instead of
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: reflecting things and physically seeing what it is, but in
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: dentistry who've developed procedures to allow us to do so.
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: I think that's so funny because you raised the root
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: canal thing. And whenever I was a younger dentist, I
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: would look at something and I'd try to get around
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: this one difficult canal trying to, I'm like, Dr. Steven,
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: I'm not able to get this. Do you think you
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: could like take a look? And he wouldn't take, well,
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: he would take a look, but he just kind of
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: with his feel, he'd go, oh yes, I think there's this,
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: there's some canal that's being, it's calcified. There's some calcification buildup.
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: let me grab this one instrument. And he goes, oh,
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: it's gone now. And I can feel I'm all the
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: way down to the tip. And sure enough, I would
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: take over and go.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: How did you know to do that? Well, it's all
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: by feel.
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: And his experience, because you cannot see things sometimes because
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: of just the nature of the beast. And so it
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: does take your experience just using your expert level hand,
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: I'll say.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Sure, sure. I mean, it's a similar thing. I refer
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: back to my dad training me as well. And And
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: I would be so frustrated coming out of dental school.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: I was like, I'm going to be the best dentist
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: in the world and all this. And and so I
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: want to learn everything I can from my dad. And
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: there were times when I would say, OK, how did
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: you extractions in particular? How did you know the field
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: to do that? He's like, it's just experience. You just
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: got to do it enough times. And there is a
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: lot of that.
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: You felt that with your dad. I felt that with
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: you because I was your associate, right?
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: So I'd be like, Dr. Stephen, there's this.
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: Root that's stuck in the bone. I mean, I think
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: I'm going to have to just– it's just going to
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: have to stay there or something. And he'd be like,
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: I'll be there in two minutes. And he'd come over
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: and just be like, boop, boop, boop, out in five seconds.
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: I'm like, what are you– just how do you know
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: how to do that? He's like, well, I look at
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: this and I put– the instrument here, and the forces
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: are such, and you have to look at the bone
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: angle and the radiograph, and I'm like, you are an expert, right?
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: And so it's so cool that I learned under that
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: as well, but.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: And now you teach others. That's the idea.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's... And to all those students out there,
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: that's why we take physics as dentists.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Yes!
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of physics involved with forces and whatnot
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: and extractions and all kinds.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: Of procedures, yeah. That's very interesting.
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: And.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: The having a feel for something works in two different
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: ways as well. Not only do you have like generally
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: colloquially a feel for the situation, a feel for how
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: the tooth needs to come out or whatever it might be,
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: but then literally also tactically the feel of something tactilely,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: the feel of something that's something you're also experts at to,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: to be able to almost like reading braille or something,
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: I guess, if I were to borrow from some of
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: our sight impaired folks that the skill to do that,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: you have to be able to tell things about how you,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: how it feels.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: And that's, and that's, what's amazing again with modern dentistry,
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: with the radiography that we have with, Instant x-rays. In
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: the past, it was more, does it feel right? Do
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: things look correctly? It wasn't as definitive of a high
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: of a standard of care that we can deliver now.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: But yeah, it's come a long way for sure.
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: Or even taking a dental impression of a crown prep.
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: And you'd be like, it looks good. I think we're good. Yeah.
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: And then, of course, you send it off to the
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: lab and they'd pour it up in stone model and
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: they'd look at the margins of that crown prep and go.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: Under magnification.
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: Under magnification and go, what is this doctor doing? They
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: don't know what they're doing. And now we do this
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: digital scanning technique where we can actually zoom in ourselves
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: on a digital, on a screen, a computer screen and go, oh,
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: I need to go back and touch this one spot.
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: And so everything we send to a lab, they go, oh, yeah,
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: they know what they're doing.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We have a couple minutes left here this morning.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: You're listening to Ask the Expert with Grebe Dental Group
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: is in studio with us this morning, Dr. Carson Henley
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: and Dr. Stephen Grebe. You can find out more information online.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: It's 1-800-GrebeDentalGroup.com. G-H-A-R-E-E-B, grievedentalgroup.com. You can find more information to
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: the location closest to you. Focus out Charleston, Cross Lane, St. Albans,
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Taze Valley, and Kanawha City. You can call 1-800-GREAT-CARE. 1-800-GREAT-CARE.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: That's 1-800-473-2822. 1-800-473-2822 will get you to the closest location.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: We have a couple minutes left here this morning. If
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: you wanted to get in, you can still try to
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: get in a quick text or a phone call. Our
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: phone line is 304-345-5858.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: 345-5858. You can get in a text message. Long question
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: to 304-935-5008, 304-935-5008.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: One of the things– oh, go ahead, Dr.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: Miller.
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: I actually have a question for you guys.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: What's this Saturday?
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: Is there something happening this Saturday?
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: That is– it is– Holy cow. We didn't even do
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: the whole show. We have to touch on it. We
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: got to touch on it. We got two minutes here.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: We better get into it. What's happening on Saturday?
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: People out there.
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: You might be tempted. You walk around for two hours
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: this Saturday evening, and then you have this bag full of,
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: let's just call it sugar, right? Just sugar and gummy
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: tissue stuff. Be careful eating the gummy stuff, because Monday morning,
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: you're going to call us with a crown that comes off,
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: and we'll take care of you, but just be careful
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: out there.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Halloween is coming.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: No, that's our typical mantra, or what do you call that?
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: Our saying around Halloween is eat the candy, but do
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: it responsibly. You know, I don't want to take that
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: joy away from any child. It's a fun time. Go
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: out and be safe and have a good time. Collect
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: your candy, but just don't snack on it all day.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: If I remember correctly, one of the tips you would
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: give is to stay hydrated with non-sugary drinks, right? You
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: want to make sure that you drink a lot. I
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: mean you're not like– I mean I guess it wouldn't
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: hurt to swish water around in your mouth. But I
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: mean you want to stay hydrated anyway, not just let
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: that sugar sit on your teeth all night.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: And that's the point is the long-term exposure to sugars
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: is when it's going to cause you trouble and the
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: stickiness also. With dental work can cause some issues pulling
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: some dental work.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Out of there.
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: We will see you Monday. We'll be happy to help
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: you out.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: I honestly don't know how Jolly Ranchers and Starburst and
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: stuff like that. I don't know how they– I mean
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: are they funded by dentists?
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: It's the secret lobby.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: I can't even put one of those in my mouth
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: without like– Really having a panic attack. I mean, I'm
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: just worried that it's going to pull a tooth out,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: let alone anything else.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: It's just the.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Other day we were having trouble getting a crown off.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: And my associate, I think it was Dr. Joseph, she's like,
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: do we have any Jolly Ranchers around here?
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: Use the patient, use that and pull this crown off
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: of there.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: I'm sure every parent out there probably remembers this from
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: when they were a kid. You get that Jolly Ranch
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: or something similar. You pop in your mouth. Oh, this
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: thing is so good. And you get it flat and
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: you take like just a little squeeze, you know, to
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: with your teeth to get it to, you know, the press.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: And maybe you'll see if it's ready to crunch up yet.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: But instead, it just fuses and it just fuses like
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: your teeth together. And you're like, oh, it's just candy.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: It's going to come right apart. You're like, wait a minute.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: And I mean, eventually, of course, it probably will. But
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: it's a little concerning for a minute. And if you
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: happen to have like a filling or something and those
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: teeth that get fused together, then yeah, I just want
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: to pull it right out probably.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: Again, see you Monday.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, see you Monday. So what we're here for, folks,
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: or what they're here for, folks, Gareeb Dental Group. Let
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: me make sure you have the information so you can
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: look it up online. It's GareebDentalGroup.com, G-H-A-R-E-E-B, GareebDentalGroup.com. Very easy
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: to find. You can get all the information over there
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: that you need to find. And, of course, you can
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: get to the closest location to you. It's POCUS, El
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Charles and Cross Lane, St. Albans, Taze Valley, or Kanawha City.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: And you can get a hold of them by calling 1-800-GREAT-CARE.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: 1-800-GREAT-CARE. That's 1-800-473-2822.
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: 1-800-473-2822.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: GareebDentalGroup.com. And I think that will do it. Have a
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: very happy Thanksgiving. Holy cow. That's going up soon. We'll
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: do Halloween first.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: Halloween first and take care of those teeth.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Dr. Stephen, thank you so much for your time again today.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: We really appreciate it.
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: Dr.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Carson, you as well? It was a blast. See you
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: guys next month. And then we will talk about Thanksgiving.
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: I guess.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Yes, we will. Have a great day, everyone.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Coming up next is going to be Dave Allen on
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: the Dave Allen Show, appropriately enough named. And then after that,
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: we'll be talking with TJ and Dave Wilson.