Latest / The Biorevolution Podcast / From biohacking to healthcare- the growing pains of the longevity industry

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From biohacking to healthcare- the growing pains of the longevity industry · The Biorevolution Podcast

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: The Bio Revolution podcast.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Your hosts,
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Luise von Stechhoff
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: and Andreas Roichler.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: white sometime, but this time we invited a guest who's very experienced in the field.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Yes!
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: We have Nico Hems with us today – he is a longevity writer and I actually came across his content because it has an nuanced view on many of the longevity trends which are often all hype.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: so i'm really looking forward to having this discussion with you.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: maybe we should also invite someone that was more hyped.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: let see how much hype will be placed.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Nico is also the growth lead of The Berlin-based longevity company year.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: So maybe we can get into what you guys are doing there in this episode as well, publishes Beyond the Hype newsletter.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Don't need to say anything else about it, and I think hosts the pretty freshly instated podcast Return on Health which is really worthwhile listening.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: so we'll link all this in the show notes if people want to learn more.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Good try for the broadcast!
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Thank
• 1:16
  Speaker 0: you
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: so much very much welcome.
• 1:18
  Speaker 0: thank you
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: easy.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: We of course as always went to start
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: with quotes.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: yes i will just read one quote today from Frank Lloyd Wright who said use is a quality, not a matter of circumstances.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: I think he's talking about architecture but i think we can also talk about what that means for human health because there are some truths in it as well.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: and this brings us into the longevity field where you have everything under one umbrella lifestyle wellness beauty.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: We have biotech, we have pharma ,we have tissue regeneration .We have biomarker companies and clinics.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: We also have cryopreservation of tissues.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: so it's quite a mixed bag!
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: So I think what would be great with you today is to try to shed some light on the more science-backed parts marketing guru side of the field and try to get an idea off what maybe the individual can take away for their own longevity from this.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: But I think also more of an industry wide view, where would we place our bets?
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: What is going to work in whatnot?
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: And then people have to pay... For this episode around let's say ten thousand dollars or something.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: if you give us very important information out We will tell you what works.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: And I think, what i find really interesting and maybe we can get into that at the end is this question of who's actually going to pay for all of it.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: because And why are our healthcare systems so unwilling to pay for prevention and...
• 3:13
  Speaker 0: Many reasons.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Could we incentivize that this could be really,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: yes?
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: In the health care system and policy makers should be interested in closing gaps on sickness in all their interference.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: of course they shouldn't be interested and still self-paying.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: as you said it's not the ideal world were in.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: right now It
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: is not I think there something for the society as a whole, but also further individual extending.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: The health span would be really important and memory can actually start with that.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: in our previous longevity episodes we have introduced this concept.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: of course I think it's maybe again good to stress their longevity means a lot different things right?
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: To different people.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: But there is the age span.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: so were getting older the last century, decades older.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: It's almost doubled I think the life expectancy but mainly due to the fact that we don't die that early anymore.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: there is antibiotics better sanitation... better drinking water yeah all these things just and better nutrition.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: so we just live longer on average.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: But longevity also And i think it accepted amongst many people means living healthy for a longer time, not just living longer because if we just extend the amount of years that we spent with chronic disease.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: The question is how much do we gain actually?
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah it's no
• 4:35
  Speaker 0: fun
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: and I mean for the healthcare system in society also huge social economic cost to say... Yes
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: absolutely!
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: And i mean for individual as well.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: so How Do We?
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: extent that.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: So I think maybe what we want to get into today, but maybe we can start with a personal question.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: so what actually motivated you to get in this field?
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: Because i think if you have your business
• 4:56
  Speaker 0: background or... I do have my business.
• 4:58
  Speaker 0: back on there!
• 5:00
  Speaker 0: Back when I was thirteen years old and pretty tall close to being two meters I'm going to put underweight at the BMI of seventeen points something or eighteen.
• 5:11
  Speaker 0: So like ball aligned underway and felt pretty uncomfortable in my body, really wanted to change that.
• 5:16
  Speaker 0: And this is what really got me into.
• 5:18
  Speaker 0: first of all nutrition because nutrition super important to gain weight as well also a healthy way which was My goal back then.
• 5:25
  Speaker 0: but then also strength training going through the gym.
• 5:28
  Speaker 0: Then i went pretty much all of the books.
• 5:29
  Speaker 0: Podcasts weren't a thing back then, would have listened to all of their podcasts also but I only had books.
• 5:35
  Speaker 0: so when it looked at some videos and talks this really got me hooked into my personal trainer certification.
• 5:45
  Speaker 0: just because that was my passion.
• 5:48
  Speaker 0: gained around like twenty kilos.
• 5:50
  Speaker 0: i saw how it worked and felt way happier and more comfortable in my own body.
• 5:55
  Speaker 0: And then after my A-levels, I thought about do we want to study biology nutrition exercise physiology?
• 6:02
  Speaker 0: and i thought...I don't know if I can make a living with that.
• 6:06
  Speaker 0: To be honest back then now it would change my mind but back Then I thought okay let's just Study business.
• 6:13
  Speaker 0: My parents did That as well.
• 6:15
  Speaker 0: they are into Business.
• 6:16
  Speaker 0: so I thought Okay Let's Just Study Business.
• 6:19
  Speaker 0: The switch came during my masters in Lisbon where I studied management and data analytics.
• 6:24
  Speaker 0: There, I met Miguel which is now my co-host for Return on Health.
• 6:28
  Speaker 0: And yeah we've talked about health all the time.
• 6:30
  Speaker 0: Health longevity, health optimization also problems incentives of research a whole lot different topics.
• 6:37
  Speaker 0: This what really got me into field again.
• 6:40
  Speaker 0: Now i'm one hundred percent hooked doing my master's in longevity right at GCLS Switzerland first off its kind which is interesting.
• 6:49
  Speaker 0: And I work at the longevity clinic, so now pretty much never doing anything else!
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: That's remarkable.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: The first European academic program
• 7:00
  Speaker 0: in the world.
• 7:01
  Speaker 0: actually, even
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: I would have thought that in the
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: U.S.,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: you'd quite a bit of those programs yet?
• 7:07
  Speaker 0: You had similar programs, Geo-science for example or like healthy aging programs but it was not really longevity.
• 7:14
  Speaker 0: and this one... I wouldn't say about it is not part of longevity?
• 7:17
  Speaker 0: all right
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: sure.
• 7:18
  Speaker 0: maybe the main difference now interesting
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: How do you tell one thing from the other?
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: In other words, what's a greatest BS in the longevity world right now.
• 7:28
  Speaker 0: That is insanely hard to answer because like I mean there are so much bullshit out there.
• 7:34
  Speaker 0: maybe an interesting thing.
• 7:36
  Speaker 0: i listened a couple of days ago on a podcast by German biohacker.
• 7:40
  Speaker 0: I think the name is Ivan Mike, let's maybe call him out if that's fair enough.
• 7:46
  Speaker 0: He has deep into biohacking and then also most people who are deep in to biohackings have a deeper peptide.
• 7:52
  Speaker 0: And peptides quite interesting mechanically as well.
• 7:56
  Speaker 0: for example insulin is a peptide, GOP-I so Zenpik is a peptide.
• 8:00
  Speaker 0: So pretty much everyone heard of the word peptides by now but they're different.
• 8:05
  Speaker 0: Quote, longevity peptides.
• 8:08
  Speaker 0: They call it like that?
• 8:08
  Speaker 0: I don't know.
• 8:09
  Speaker 0: BPC- one five seven TB Five hundred all of them and I might talk about them And i think was in a podcast on.
• 8:17
  Speaker 0: the podcast host.
• 8:18
  Speaker 0: ask him okay what's About The Safety?
• 8:20
  Speaker 0: Do we Know Everything?
• 8:21
  Speaker 0: and answer Was yeah We Know everything we know All Of The Pathways and we know It Happens In The Body.
• 8:27
  Speaker 0: This Is Complete BS.
• 8:29
  Speaker 0: I mean we do know some pathways.
• 8:31
  Speaker 0: this is true but This doesn't mean that only because we know the pathway in a cell, In a cell culture.
• 8:37
  Speaker 0: That this is the same.
• 8:38
  Speaker 0: and the body I mean you know as well Because your scientists aswell Like most of cases it's just not the case What we see on the cells Doesn't always mean or like Most of the cases does'nt even mean The same human body
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: a number of different cells that do different things.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: So it might be doing one thing in oneself, I think there was some longevity or biohacking conference and the US where people injected peptides?
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: Some people died at least were severely ill.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: yeah i think this is what you point out here.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: This is really difficult factors because we have these huge umbrella for different players And many are not regulated.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: but we feel like all of that is the output of pharma.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: So these are medications and this should be safe because it's science, but I mean there different levels.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: knowing something about a pathway doesn't mean that it's safe to put into your body.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: This is like this, used to be where people say yeah its all natural and good for you but if thats the case poisonous mushrooms and snakes are all-natural they will still kill you.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: so I think... This
• 9:48
  Speaker 0: always a problem.
• 9:49
  Speaker 0: How
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: would you identify?
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: You write alot about the BS in the field, right?
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: And also about good applications.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: We're calling out only bad stuff but I mean there's a lot of good stuff as well.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: But where would you say are the biggest?
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: let's say red and green flags for it.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: Where do you say like?
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: can you identify from the title already or study Or an article if its going to be worthwhile or not?
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: How far do have to get and where Do see the cues that something might something that we want to look into deeper and something, like completely dismissed maybe.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah
• 10:22
  Speaker 0: I think the biggest problem isn't studies itself or only looking at certain studies.
• 10:27
  Speaker 0: it's influencers on social media, for example in short form videos or LinkedIn posts whatever.
• 10:33
  Speaker 0: They cherry pick studies and point out the one study which actually fits their narrative.
• 10:39
  Speaker 0: but then if you look at the whole body of evidence let's say there are twenty studies-one points into that direction they want...they think is right?
• 10:47
  Speaker 0: And then the nineteen other studies which they don't look at tell a completely different story.
• 10:51
  Speaker 0: If we looked all off the evidence this story goes obviously to the direction of the nineteen studies.
• 10:55
  Speaker 0: so thats one thing.
• 10:56
  Speaker 0: cherry picking stuff.
• 10:58
  Speaker 0: That's what a lot of people sadly do, and that is why many don't recognize.
• 11:03
  Speaker 0: Because it's hard to recognize.
• 11:04
  Speaker 0: It's
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: super-hard to recognize!
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: If there
• 11:05
  Speaker 0: is an ESS study or endophilia dysfunction... ...it's the main culprit for cardiovascular disease but not LDL cholesterol which is common.
• 11:13
  Speaker 0: I mean maybe it definitely plays a part?
• 11:16
  Speaker 0: But it doesn't mean LDL is not part of the puzzle exactly.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: Only
• 11:22
  Speaker 0: butter.
• 11:22
  Speaker 0: Yeah only butter.
• 11:23
  Speaker 0: Exactly this one problem a bunch of problems.
• 11:27
  Speaker 0: You also have the problem of people using a study, for example an observational study, epidemiological study and then bringing causality from it.
• 11:35
  Speaker 0: this is not really possible.
• 11:36
  Speaker 0: you can see correlation And you can adjust to a tonne things but there simply isn't causality without like RCTs medullion randomization meta-analysis with RCT all these.
• 11:47
  Speaker 0: so we need be more cautious in most absolute claims where someone saying This causes X Most of the time are not true.
• 11:54
  Speaker 0: If you really look at science, it's more like this points into that direction or maybe could lead to potentially... This is also a thing listeners can take and see if they're most likely just marketing.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: In a nutshell we need more regulation.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: A shaky feel I would say?
• 12:18
  Speaker 0: More regulation can help potentially, but then there's also the thing if what like one million people do it who in the world is putting their regulation to court for example.
• 12:29
  Speaker 0: No-one will do so.
• 12:30
  Speaker 0: I don't think that necessarily any benefit they are.
• 12:33
  Speaker 0: i think we just need to educate people better on how to read studies and what really makes evidence What different level of study?
• 12:40
  Speaker 0: Like an RCTs worth more quote unquote than epidemiological study most of cases.
• 12:45
  Speaker 0: But Then There Is Also Population Sizes.
• 12:47
  Speaker 0: If You Have A Group Of Ten people can't really create causality from that.
• 12:51
  Speaker 0: If you have like one thousand people randomized controlled study, this is a whole different topic than any of meta-analysis, mandolin randomization... You just need to educate people on these topics so they make a better decision from this.
• 13:04
  Speaker 0: And they can look at the post or the wheels, our podcast as well which is also a thing now and just make their own decisions.
• 13:10
  Speaker 0: based on that.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: I would say for one thing more regulation could really help with general field of supplements because i think there... The challenge is..I mean ..the one thing ...is many of the supplements per se wouldn't work.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: but The other problem is that because they're not regulated, you can actually be very sure.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: They are undergoing the same controls.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: so for many of us we cannot know what's in there which of course it pretty scary in a sense.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: So I think...
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: We've been talking about this with people who have just a handful of supplements early morning and then another one at night and poison themselves.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean to an extent you might actually poison your kidneys by taking too many drugs or too many supplements that you don't need because everything that you put into yourself needs to be treated at some point.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: So somehow your body needs to deal with it and not everything is beneficial, I mean it's too much of a good thing also.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: For example taking to many vitamins even though vitamins per se are probably good for you but over killing it on vitamins was very bad.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: so there needs be some kind balance.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: where would see the most interesting directions?
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: more towards lifestyle optimization or biomarkers
• 14:40
  Speaker 0: As of right now, definitely Lifestyle because Lifestyle has the biggest lever in terms of health span optimization.
• 14:47
  Speaker 0: We have sleep nutrition... sports or going to the gym, cardiovascular exercise as well a strength training and also mobility.
• 14:53
  Speaker 0: If you have time most people don't need to find your balance.
• 14:56
  Speaker 0: And then also stress management and mental health which is super undervalued especially in today's times with our smartphones and short form content.
• 15:04
  Speaker 0: all of that Is not really beneficial for our mental health.
• 15:07
  Speaker 0: I think we all know That.
• 15:08
  Speaker 0: so these five pillars are super important and definitely The biggest levers.
• 15:13
  Speaker 0: but then also in terms of prevention.
• 15:15
  Speaker 0: it's always good To do testing to really know, okay where do I stand today?
• 15:20
  Speaker 0: And then do these lifestyle interventions most of the time.
• 15:23
  Speaker 0: Maybe pharmacological interventions but this should be done by a doctor definitely.
• 15:27
  Speaker 0: and then lifestyle intervention one year after see when you stand now maybe adjust based on that But definitely lifestyles first always in terms of therapeutics.
• 15:38
  Speaker 0: there are lots interesting new things out there.
• 15:42
  Speaker 0: Even peptides are generally interesting, we just need way more research on that in humans please in humans not in mice or whatever.
• 15:51
  Speaker 0: and GOP ones is super-interesting especially for severely obese people.
• 15:56
  Speaker 0: There's also now the trend of microdosing GOP once I'm not sure about this.
• 16:01
  Speaker 0: yeah it's new.
• 16:01
  Speaker 0: i also haven't looked too deep into this.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: but
• 16:05
  Speaker 0: think for GOP one's for a severely obese people as well so really really can't do it on their own, then most likely is definitely beneficial.
• 16:15
  Speaker 0: And also super advanced stuff like TPE total plasma exchange plasmapheresis.
• 16:20
  Speaker 0: It's mechanically interesting and there some data.
• 16:24
  Speaker 0: not much on that could make sense.
• 16:27
  Speaker 0: but we just need a ton of more research, and the biggest problem is it costs a lot.
• 16:32
  Speaker 0: Even if we have big RCTs on this they say that their benefit is enormous.
• 16:37
  Speaker 0: still cost like ten K so its not affordable for most people.
• 16:41
  Speaker 0: So lifestyle first.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: Interesting also of course that you mentioned GLP-I, I mean generally this axis of metabolic health of metformin is one of the very recognized mTOR inhibition rapamycin and it's among the recognized compounds that are likely to do something.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: If I had an interesting concept, GLP One we know definitely has benefits and might extend healthy lifespan for sure in people with metabolic dysfunction without obesity might also do so in people who have no metabolic dysfunction, TBD.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: We don't know yet.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: I think there was a neurodegenerative trial the Alzheimer's Trial that didn't read out positive.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: So it is one thing.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: but i think at many smaller studies There were lot of things right?
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: That related to health, cancer and aging-related diseases where we did have some benefit And again needs to be confirmed.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: maybe cannot be confirmed But question would if... let's say, have enough evidence to say probably we can extend our health ban with GLP ones with metformin and with rapamycin.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: I mean would it be a strategy that people are prescribed per se these drugs by their physicians or is even the government-led program?
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: We want our population to stay healthy so please inject yourself over if its an oral version.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Find out quite interesting how you feel about this kind of.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's a bit dystopian scenario that i'm painting now but let's tone it down a little bit and yeah preemptively taking these kind of medication if we have the feeling.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: It would extend our health span.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: won't lifespan stream?
• 18:15
  Speaker 0: If you will have more data That means like huge rcts in healthy people not only in like as of now like diabetic People and obese people but in also healthy people as well.
• 18:27
  Speaker 0: And if this data points towards a direction that it may extend healthy lifespan for whatever reason, doesn't really matter here then I think potentially makes sense.
• 18:37
  Speaker 0: But there's again huge downsides because everyone who took GOP once already they know how expensive They are.
• 18:44
  Speaker 0: so i think from government standpoint super hard to do.
• 18:48
  Speaker 0: Because Sadly, and that's also probably we can talk about later again.
• 18:53
  Speaker 0: They don't really have the money to invest in those things which only have a return on invest long-term after ten twenty thirty years.
• 19:01
  Speaker 0: This is one of the huge problems with insurances for example why they don't pay into prevention but That's another topic.
• 19:07
  Speaker 0: so I think it's super interesting But we just need to make it way more affordable for everyone if it works.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: It's an interesting concept And i think this access of metabolism is one of the stronger leads, for sure.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Because I mean also there are these casting experiments in mice and generally like metabolically deficient mice, IGF-one which are small but live long so... and they feel cold.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think there is a lot of evidence pointing in this direction that something might be going on there.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: so i think for sure an interesting leak.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: let's see where it leads... And one has to say also GLP-I has some not so pleasant side effects like the potential bone mineral reduction.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: So I think would be something watch out for.
• 19:54
  Speaker 0: They're always side effects.
• 19:56
  Speaker 0: You don't get any effect without side
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: effects That's true.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: The longevity-climics are taking off kind of right now and definitely going to be a concept for the future.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Can you take us inside those walls?
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Is this something that will eventually grow into an offering?
• 20:38
  Speaker 0: Really good question.
• 20:39
  Speaker 0: So for example we had years, our smallest program which already takes like five to six hours has thirty tests and then ninety biomarkers.
• 20:47
  Speaker 0: so it's not really small.
• 20:49
  Speaker 0: costs one thousand eight hundred euros.
• 20:51
  Speaker 0: this is the starting point.
• 20:53
  Speaker 0: I think only from this standpoint on you can tell that this most likely isn't for everybody or definitely not for everyone.
• 20:59
  Speaker 0: This was for people who do have money to spare and also for people who are privately insured, because most of the private insurance covers at least parts of the program.
• 21:09
  Speaker 0: Most of the time big part is in the program as well right now mostly like for those with WADA wealthy or Silicon Valley tech entrepreneurs especially the bigger programs that can cost up to sixteen thousand euros.
• 21:24
  Speaker 0: Also here in Germany we do these programs too but As of right now, sadly it's only for the witcher.
• 21:34
  Speaker 0: You don't necessarily need to be super-witch but witch share and that is the main problem.
• 21:38
  Speaker 0: I mean we do have some preventative programs in Germany For example check up thirty five which Is better than nothing.
• 21:46
  Speaker 0: Don't want put any blame on this But its not really.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: It isn´t a whole thing.
• 21:50
  Speaker 0: Definitely far from being The Whole Thing.
• 21:52
  Speaker 0: We Have Colonoscopies Breast Cancer Screening All Of This.
• 21:55
  Speaker 0: This Is Good But We Can Do Way More.
• 21:58
  Speaker 0: The main problem is that governments or public insurances, they cannot pay for this simply because of the reason why they don't have any money to invest in.
• 22:06
  Speaker 0: Same issue here who also has the government's like... They do not have money to spend which will only be returned in fifteen-twenty years.
• 22:14
  Speaker 0: I talked with a CEO about big public health insurance and it was exactly what he told me He just doesnt' have the money.
• 22:21
  Speaker 0: It works!
• 22:22
  Speaker 0: They cannot spend it like that.
• 22:25
  Speaker 0: It's not possible economically
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: and they would have midterm benefits from it.
• 22:30
  Speaker 0: definitely, you know big
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: time.
• 22:32
  Speaker 0: Yeah, I know what that some.
• 22:33
  Speaker 0: probably
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: there are always these models right?
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: And even rest cancer screening and even PSA screenings or sometimes debated read.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: the question is do you catch it early enough to intervene.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: And I think this is what the healthcare system, it's not about catching something early but catching something in a way where you would then have an intervention that has a measurable output and they're even really well-tested.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: markers like PSA are sometimes put into question which i find very interesting.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: That also brings me to this question about these bigger biomarker panels.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: Where do say?
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: because for many of things you don't really have a lever to do anything about it, right?
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: You just know something might be amiss.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: But you might not be able to change anything about that.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: how do?
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: because he also mentioned like more the mental health part of this story or one of the Google founders who was married to The Twenty Three and Me founder found like a variant would predispose him I think to get Parkinson's later on.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: but you cannot do anything.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: integrate that, because I think for some people it can also cause a lot of stress.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Just knowing you have predisposition or markers are not as they should be but there is no intervention except living healthier.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: what we would anyways hope and try to do?
• 23:59
  Speaker 0: Definitely!
• 24:00
  Speaker 0: The problem is rather in the genetic panels than bio-marker panels.
• 24:04
  Speaker 0: In biomarkers there's also specific biomarkers who aren't really actionable like now.
• 24:10
  Speaker 0: First of all, you don't really know what this creates too clinically.
• 24:13
  Speaker 0: Is there any change even if it's out-of-range?
• 24:17
  Speaker 0: There are some endophilia dysfunction markers for example where we don't have yet enough validation to use them in an effective way.
• 24:25
  Speaker 0: If we have like APOB doesn't add more value But then they're genetic panels as well.
• 24:31
  Speaker 0: So for example ApoE IV which is the Alzheimer gene.
• 24:35
  Speaker 0: I think it has four X increased risk ten to twelve x increased risk.
• 24:42
  Speaker 0: This is scary, really yes and you cannot do anything about it except like lifestyle interventions which are supposed to be done anyway.
• 24:49
  Speaker 0: so there's no real value at all.
• 24:51
  Speaker 0: I myself when i was in berkeley the US did some consumer genetic testing as well Which were very similar for me.
• 24:59
  Speaker 0: I forgot their name of company but pretty much same thing And then got nine hundred different things somewhere wet or yellow.
• 25:08
  Speaker 0: what the hell is happening here?
• 25:09
  Speaker 0: What am I supposed to do with
• 25:11
  Speaker 0: this?".
• 25:11
  Speaker 0: And they are also, it's a thing like you have April reform which is causally related to Alzheimer's and medically proven.
• 25:18
  Speaker 0: Then for example i had something that was telling me...I have knee pain or high chance of getting knee pain.
• 25:25
  Speaker 0: This was based on mechanistic anti-pastry Exactly!
• 25:33
  Speaker 0: Consumers don't really know the difference.
• 25:34
  Speaker 0: one is really validated pretty much just a guess.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: I find this really risky, these kind of things.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: on the other hand for these kinds of thing there should be physician involved
• 25:45
  Speaker 0: who helps
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: that patient to integrate those outputs.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: but it's really being left alone with this information and especially if you're not able as you say distinguish what does mean i think is can be very bad also thinking even though counteracting before a previous position for something, or even a gene causally related to also like fatal disease like GLS.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Or maybe it would be nice too know how you live your life in the best possible way at that time.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: so I think there is something besides this as well.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: You said many of the biomarkers are not actionable, but how realistic do you think working with people who want to change their lifestyle and extend their health span?
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: How much does this information motivate them because what I find always interesting is that there's a very simple correlation between eating too much sugar and getting diabetes.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: And not stopping to eat so much sugar
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: The clearest call-to action could imagine.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Because we really know only one thing has to be done You don't have to take any medication.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Just need to change your lifestyle and you will not get the disease, yeah?
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: And people don't manage to do it.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: I mean i'm not blaming People.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: that is not what I mean.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: We have these patterns right That are really hard to break.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: So how do you translate knowledge about a certain biomarker into Yeah an actionable lifestyle change?
• 27:21
  Speaker 0: I mean, obviously don't see patients as another doctor.
• 27:24
  Speaker 0: But i talk to many doctors and also have a lot of friends And do it myself.
• 27:29
  Speaker 0: So this is where the thing im saying now
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: comes from As you told us in the very beginning that your journey started when you were thirteen so You are used to it
• 27:40
  Speaker 0: For
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: like ever Right?
• 27:43
  Speaker 0: Yeah definitely
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: That's different.
• 27:45
  Speaker 0: Now one hundred percent The main difference.
• 27:47
  Speaker 0: first off all what you already mentioned like having a person, best case of doctor who knows their stuff.
• 27:55
  Speaker 0: Best case the doctor was used to working with clients on extending the healthy lifespan.
• 27:59
  Speaker 0: so who's in prevention expert let say it like that.
• 28:03
  Speaker 0: they order the labs and they tell okay this is where your stand?
• 28:06
  Speaker 0: And then this important This Is Where You Could Go.
• 28:09
  Speaker 0: Like for example in ten years if you don't do anything, not one hundred percent but sixty percent likely will develop heart disease or diabetes.
• 28:18
  Speaker 0: But If You Do Something your risk reduces dramatically and I think like those risk numbers are super important.
• 28:23
  Speaker 0: there's the ACVD index where you can calculate your tenure-risk something this is important interesting at least.
• 28:30
  Speaker 0: then also organ ages which are not a hundred percent validated yet.
• 28:35
  Speaker 0: I heard quite a few times that they are great motivator.
• 28:38
  Speaker 0: If you see your heart or fitness age, whatever it means doesn't really matter is like ten years older than yourself.
• 28:46
  Speaker 0: then you get motivated and oh ok thats not good.
• 28:50
  Speaker 0: i need to change this now.
• 28:51
  Speaker 0: This also where those biological age tests have value.
• 28:55
  Speaker 0: They're not clinically meaningful but think their very good for motivation.
• 29:01
  Speaker 0: So having someone guiding you like specific numbers which you can imagine yourself, age.
• 29:09
  Speaker 0: Like a specific age and not like I don't know APUB of point eight.
• 29:14
  Speaker 0: what does that even mean?
• 29:15
  Speaker 0: Most people do not know but if they see your heart age or vessel's age is forty They know how it means.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Then on the other hand You have this still after all those decades sticking narrative Your fellow hamburger Helmut Schmidt ex chancellor.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: when he comes to smoking Of course, everybody knows it's harmful.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: But then the die-hards would say look at that much bit and you're geared to be ninety
• 29:40
  Speaker 0: five pretty old.
• 29:41
  Speaker 0: definitely yeah.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: And I met him on an occasion and really in one hour press conference he smoked three cigarettes He snipped tobacco and he smoked a pipe In one hour You know?
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: It was crazy
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: is a stochastic process and shift these stochastics in one or the other direction.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: So I mean, there are many things that we know our harmful which is smoking.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: sun likes exposure sugar lack of mobility different types of toxins infections stress inflammation.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: all these things We know.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: And having more Of them makes it More likely to develop certain diseases.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: but It doesn't make it Certain and not doing any of These things also Doesn't Make it Certain That you will Not develop disease.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: You can get cancer even though you had a perfect...
• 30:27
  Speaker 0: Yeah, everything well.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: And that is something I think we also need to take into account of course for these types of measures.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: but it's not foolproof right?
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: At the same time, you shift balance in a better direction.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: And I think it's great payoff if your life is healthier and feeling better at that moment not only in future but eating better exercising or not being stressed sleeping well makes you feel right now which i think is a great motivator
• 30:58
  Speaker 0: for me
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: its actually best motivator.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: to be on top of things I think one thing about the people who are going into these longevity clinics, who order this test panels online.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: Who already invest in their own health?
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: There's also a selection bias because there're people that have invested enough and wanting to live healthier And i can imagine many of them are living rather healthy lifestyles In comparison with those who never heard or even know how rolled out to a broader part of the population.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: because what you said, I mean it's very expensive.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: To run tests and to treat and to run lifestyle interventions but was even more expensive is decades off person years spent in chronic disease loss-of work care investment that needs to be done by family or outside people.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: so this adds up too social economic costs totally far exceed their investment set.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: i mean we cannot.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: This is a calculation that you can do on a piece of paper and will not convince any policymaker.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: But, Do You See Any Measures?
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: How Can This Idea Of Prevention Of Health Span Be Brought To The Broader Public?
• 32:19
  Speaker 0: Yeah this Is the One Billion Dollar Question.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: No!
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: The one billion dollar question is the longevity pill for dogs but...
• 32:25
  Speaker 0: Fair What we are trying to do at years in the long term, also trying to publish case studies so that we have evidence to show those preventative measures really accrue.
• 32:36
  Speaker 0: a long-term healthy lifestyle and having no diseases.
• 32:41
  Speaker 0: In the long run or like fewer diseases?
• 32:44
  Speaker 0: That's better word!
• 32:45
  Speaker 0: But then there are many things where you need change for it.
• 32:49
  Speaker 0: We need to have insurances who can... public insurance is definitely an important thing.
• 32:54
  Speaker 0: You need to be able to invest long-terms which they don't right now.
• 33:00
  Speaker 0: And that money needs to come from the government, we need change incentives and a lot of different things but then also education itself because most medical doctors do not really train in prevention.
• 33:13
  Speaker 0: They are mostly trained in sick care Which makes sense.
• 33:15
  Speaker 0: I wouldn't put blame into this.
• 33:16
  Speaker 0: We still need physicians who are trained on prevention.
• 33:25
  Speaker 0: Here.
• 33:25
  Speaker 0: you are not at a disease level yet, but maybe in five years we will be looking at your biomarkers and look into trends.
• 33:31
  Speaker 0: We need to stop that now.
• 33:32
  Speaker 0: Most doctors do it because they're also trained for doing this and don't have time.
• 33:36
  Speaker 0: And then there's the billing problem.
• 33:40
  Speaker 0: For example our doctor spends like one hour or one-and-a half hours with their patients.
• 33:44
  Speaker 0: That is not possible at all With normal GP just simply because They cannot build much.
• 33:50
  Speaker 0: They wouldn't be able to make any living with that.
• 33:53
  Speaker 0: if they see a patient like one hour, it's not possible.
• 33:56
  Speaker 0: So we also need change the building system.
• 33:58
  Speaker 0: there are so many things who needs to have changed.
• 34:01
  Speaker 0: I think education is the best thing because then you can push.
• 34:05
  Speaker 0: Because If We Have More Medical Doctors Who Have This Minds That Okay Prevention Is Necessary Then They Can Make A Push Towards The Government Insurance And This May Be Will In Long One Create To Change.
• 34:16
  Speaker 0: But Yeah It'S A Hard One.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: Closing, Nico.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: Do you have just a short longevity hack for our listeners' viewers?
• 34:25
  Speaker 0: I think sleeping is the most important
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: thing... Oh nice!
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: I love it!
• 34:28
  Speaker 0: ...I put so much emphasis on sleeping maybe sometimes a bit too much but like having eight hours of sleep in cold bedroom.
• 34:35
  Speaker 0: make it dark and quiet beautiful one hour before that.
• 34:39
  Speaker 0: don't go into your phone all this stuff.
• 34:41
  Speaker 0: This really helps.
• 34:41
  Speaker 0: It really does.
• 34:43
  Speaker 0: For example today morning i haven't slept that great Haven't slept to short And I mean, I'm tired right now.
• 34:50
  Speaker 0: So my body got used to this kind of a perfect sleep or good sleep?
• 34:54
  Speaker 0: This is really a thing more people especially hardworking people need to put emphasis on.
• 34:58
  Speaker 0: eight hours
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: your commitment is absolutely
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: yes.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: just maybe one other question what's the sensor come across?
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: many biohacking trends.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: What's the most absurd think you've come across?
• 35:10
  Speaker 0: i don't know if i can mention this year but we
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: can cut it out.
• 35:13
  Speaker 0: there are some people who were drinking their urine and and they ferment it for a couple of months.
• 35:20
  Speaker 0: Oh my
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: God,
• 35:21
  Speaker 0: this is
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: disgusting!
• 35:24
  Speaker 0: This was quite the weird one but then also maybe coffee enemas?
• 35:28
  Speaker 0: Weird... I don't know what's happening that some people just think this an amazing idea.
• 35:33
  Speaker 0: Yeah
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: i really do believe you
• 35:41
  Speaker 0: feel something afterwards.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: I think we have answered all the questions when it comes to longevity and...
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: We've answered ALL questions.
• 35:50
  Speaker 0: All questions, apparently!
• 35:52
  Speaker 0: Exactly.
• 35:52
  Speaker 0: But
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: now there will be many more questions coming up And i think that we'll continue talking about this topic and also looking at many different angles
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: And invite you again?
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: Yes Definitely
• 36:03
  Speaker 0: Sounds good.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: Maybe
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: come visit us for years and take a look at
• 36:08
  Speaker 0: what
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: your guys are doing.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: It sounds pretty interesting.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: It's a great model and I think it would be great if it was accessible to more people.
• 36:16
  Speaker 0: We'd love that!
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Even also known as the bigger part of population, what always comes down when we talk with different people about it is diet exercise or sleep And there are so many things you can already do yourself on working.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: but I have to say modern life pushes against getting these things right.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: So we really need work also a little bit on our own health as an investment in our future and the future of society.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Nikon!
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: This was this edition of The Biorevolution podcast.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: thanks for tuning-in.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: we'll be back shortly.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: You will find the line of notes always at www.sciencetales.com.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: See y'all
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: around have a good time bye.