Latest / Talk Commerce / Elevating E-commerce: Meet Magento Insights with Noah Oken-Berg
Transcript
- Brent Peterson (00:01.986) Welcome to this Portland Weird episode of Talk Commerce sponsored by the Magento Association or supported by the Magento Association or we're supporting them or something like that. Anyways, today I have Noah Oakenberg. Oakenberg, no relationship to the guy from Better Call Saul. He's an Oaken, isn't he, or something like that? Anyways, I'm already, yeah. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (00:24.82) He's a yeah, it's all good men. I really appreciate the likeness though Yeah Brent Peterson (00:30.682) You look just like him. Noah is the co -founder of Above the Fray or ATF, not alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, but Above the Fray. And he does wear a big, at events though, you should walk around with a jacket that says ATF on the back, know, just a regular blue windbreaker, I think would be awesome. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (00:44.654) Not on Wednesdays. Brent Peterson (00:55.54) And last year put on Meet Magento New York. So today we're going to talk a little bit about Above the Fray and the agency. And we're going to talk about Meet Magento and then the Magento Association. So Noah, take it on, take it over, go ahead, do an introduction for yourself, much more concise than I just did. And maybe one of your passions. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (01:17.412) anybody that knows me knows me the one thing I'm usually not as concise I like to elaborate but I'll do my best. Yeah, Noah Oakenberg, I actually been in the Magento ecosystem, the e -commerce ecosystem about twice as long as since I have co -founded our own agency above the fray. So Aaron Hunt and I work together at another local agency here in Portland. We were two of the first three employees there. I don't know, 14 years ago or so I lose track, but. It was definitely the Magento one days. that I wasn't the first, know, there's definitely folks that have been, on the cutting room floor, you know, much, much, much earlier than us. But, you know, definitely some stripes from that. So we have decided to, you know, we're wanted to be slightly. masochistic people and start our own agency, guess. And we did so about seven years ago. And so we're we are platform agnostic. A large part of our business is with Adobe Commerce and Magento. And, you know, from from the very beginning, even, you know, from the beginning of engaging with this community, we've I've seen the value of supporting it and finding different ways to. work with it, to enhance it, to connect the dots, and to learn from it especially. And so I think that's served me well over the years, and even more so over the last couple of years as I've gotten even deeper into where a big heart of it is in the international, European especially, community. Brent Peterson (03:12.302) And passions in life. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (03:15.672) Passions in life. I might sound odd, but I really do enjoy this whole running a company thing. I love the people I work with. I love the clients we work with, the partners. I'll say with the asterisks on most days for all of those, right? But it is the spice of life. I've always been the type of person that likes to connect people, to build cool things and great things and make something where the outcome is greater than the sum of the parts. And this is one way of doing that in a major way. Other than that, bodies of water. I love to be on a body of water. preferably in a non -motorized vehicle, whether that's rafting down some class 4s and 5s or just floating in an inflatable kayak down some lazy rivers, or even the lazy river in a donut at the MGM down in Vegas. That's all right too. Brent Peterson (04:22.478) That's awesome. So Noah, before we get started, you have graciously volunteered to be part of the free joke project and I have an unbelievable joke for you today. Just give me a rating one through five. So here we go. Which letter keeps pirates calm? P. Without it, they are irate. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (04:43.528) All right, well, let's see. It's funny. My son actually has been doing the exact same thing where he's been giving me jokes and telling me to rate it on a scale of one to five. And if I don't give him a five, he's super offended. And I'm like, well, you got to have something to work towards. know, that's... Brent, I know your jokes and they're all in the ranges. I mean, 3 .5 is probably the lowest they go. And I would probably give this one a 4 .2. Yeah. Brent Peterson (05:09.358) Well, 4 .2 and I got one more for you then. My friend asked me if I was getting Oasis tickets. I said, maybe. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (05:11.768) Alright. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (05:19.367) Yeah, can you sing that for me? I put that from like a 4 .2 to like a 4 .9 if you sung that for me. Brent Peterson (05:26.816) If I sung it, you're going to give me a two. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (05:29.732) It doesn't go that way. Come on. Brent Peterson (05:31.326) That's how great my voice is. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, nobody's noticed the hair yet. All right, so let's jump in. Let's talk a little bit about Meet Magento New York. And I've been interviewing, I've interviewed Ravi this week and Vlad from Romania. So you organized Meet Magento New York last year. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (05:36.036) I mean, with that hair, it's gotta be incredible. Brent Peterson (06:00.024) Give us some background and why you did it and how it went. I mean, I guess I know how it went. I was there, it was fantastic. Tell us a little bit about that. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (06:08.643) Yeah. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (06:12.04) It was great. You know, I've done events throughout my career. I used to DJ for a living, quote unquote living, and throw parties and also do some stuff for nonprofits and things like that. So it's always been a passion of mine. And so when the opportunity arose, it was something that was instantly attractive and kind of made a few details work with it and dove in head first. Yeah, I was, I could probably put it as one of the more important things that I've done in my career on a number of levels. It's definitely a labor of love to do this I can tell you from all the folks that I know that have put on different meet magento events and I got kind of I became part of this like sort of global fraternity, you know of producers event producers for meet magento and you know, it's it's It's not something you do because you want to go out there and make a bunch of money It's not something you want to do because you want to go get a bunch of leads, you know or anything that's sort of like for that type of prosperity necessarily. I'm sure some folks have been able to capitalize well on that, but it's not the motivation. You gotta be doing it, like I said, from a place of really love for the community and understanding the importance of what it means to bring. people together and I would say like -minded but actually there are definitely commonalities but I think the beauty of it is you get such a diverse range of opinions and and and you know if you know this crowd nobody that's really afraid of giving their opinions either so getting that all in one place and in in the you know what some people call the the capital of the world in New York City right in the heart of downtown you know off -broadway theater district Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (08:08.165) It was an incredible experience. One that took me about a week of rest to recover from, but one I wouldn't change for the world. Brent Peterson (08:17.058) Yeah, that's awesome. And you had your, I know that you had your team there that, that, mean, coming from Portland or I would imagine your team is a lot, is a lot of remote, but getting all those people there is, it can be expensive and it can be time consuming. And it does sometimes take you your eye off the shiny ball or the, it is a shiny object. It kind of takes your eye off the ball. But anyways, how, how did that affect? your mental state and then you mentioned some time to recovery. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (08:51.042) I mean, I think it was different for every single person on my team. And if we were going to do it again, we need to carve out a distinct team that was dedicated to doing that and not pull people in that had day jobs at Above the Fray. They were all gracious and did a fantastic job. But I was asking a lot out of them. It's one thing to ask that out of myself, who I can make that decision. people that signed up and nothing remotely related in their job descriptions that were rolling up their sleeves and making this global event with people from 30 different countries all get together for the first two day event. It had only been one day, I think for the eight years proceeding was definitely a Herculean event or a Herculean effort. So. Yeah, I mean, we do have a team all over the US, actually all over the world. We have a brick and mortar office in the Philippines. We have remote engineers in several other countries. And Portland's our headquarters, but probably, I don't know, six or seven or eight different states. So I would say that if I, you know, when I hang up my hat from doing this whole e -commerce thing, you know, business development on those things, I think I want to be an event planner or a travel planner. I really, it's weird, my whole team knows this. used to have our EA was doing that and I pulled those responsibilities back to me because I actually love that coordination. It's like this, I don't know, four dimensional game of a puzzle that you gotta put all the pieces together. So yeah, we did a good job. We all arrived on site. We were ready to go. Got there a little early. Some of us stayed a little bit late. And definitely worked hard and played hard. There's some really great parties, great content during the day and great events during the night. And it wasn't just about the events themselves. was just, remember just having a pack of all of us from the event, kind of roaming the streets of downtown Manhattan and across New York, like, I don't know, 20, 30, 50, 100 people deep at times, just taking on different bars and restaurants or just hanging out on a corner. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (11:12.706) Yuck it up. Brent Peterson (11:14.21) Yeah, that's awesome. give us some reasons why somebody should sign up for a Meet Magento event. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (11:21.492) As an attendee? Well, first of all, would attendee absolutely, but you know, look for other ways to get involved. know, it's, you know, there's speaker slots are open at Meet Magento events are famous for bringing new folks into the fold, giving opportunities for people to get on stage to speak their piece. There's volunteer opportunities, there's sponsorship opportunities. Brent Peterson (11:22.701) Yeah. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (11:49.404) There's ways to contribute to helping promote them. But as far as from a pure attendance, which is obviously just as important, we all saw what happened when the world shut down and we're sitting here over a screen and doing a virtual meeting and that's great. I love it. We're able to connect in different parts of the planet. There's nothing like those in -person events. There's nothing like, and everybody knows this, it's cliche by now, but it impresses upon you every time you do it. Does it suck to have to, you know, sometimes get up at, you know, before the crack of dawn to get on a flight and fly across the country or across the globe, you know, leave your family for a couple days or a week or so to do it? Yeah, absolutely. You nobody likes that. Well, I guess some people. their family. But you know for a lot of us that's that's a painful part. But then you get there and you know you have this other family you have this other community that's that's there there's there's people that you new faces that you meet there's new things that you learn about technologies and just personal insights that pop up. I think you know the the content is delivered by people who take pride in bringing real topics, real insight, real conversation to the table and not just sitting up there and spitting an advertisement for 30 minutes for their company, which a lot of events end up doing. And again, the partnerships that can come out of it, the relationships that can come out of it. I went to a community event in Germany and had no idea that I was going to be meeting our next engineering manager who's Romanian and lives in Italy. You know, and like just happened to, you know, meet her, you know, sort of off to the side of the dance floor at the evening event with my then director of engineering. And those are the kinds of things that can happen, you know, at these events that just can't happen otherwise. You can network and you can do this stuff online and LinkedIn and that's important. But, you know, there's just nothing like the camaraderie and the partnership that's built from, you know, being in the trenches and also the celebrations with folks from all over the planet. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (14:11.246) doing similar things. Brent Peterson (14:13.102) Yeah, I think traditionally it's been more difficult to entice merchants to join the event. What kind of advice would you give to a merchant who is on the fence and thinking about signing up? Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (14:28.098) Yeah, I guess putting myself, I have a lot of colleagues and there's obviously a lot of movement in our industry, in our space where we have folks that may work at a platform and then they go to work at Emergent and then they're working at an agency. And so, you know, there's oftentimes people that have that perspective because they've seen it from different angles. But there's also folks that have only been at one of those things and maybe only just worked as, you know, relevant stakeholder at a merchant and I guess their their apprehension maybe because they feel like they don't want to be sold or pitched on things or maybe it's not relevant to them or things like that but the fact of the matter is is like this the very nature of what a meet magenta event is is is a global community of people that are there to support each other and grow ultimately what these merchants are doing And really beyond the merchant, what their end buyers are doing, what the consumers, that's really, we're all working together for that person that's hitting the buy button or engaging with the portal or doing whatever it is that's on this e -commerce platform. And so we're all in it together, really. mean, sure, they're going to decide which partners and which SIs to work with and which make the most sense. Some are going to be completely in -house. But whatever it is, you get to. you're going to be stronger at your job, you're going be better at your job, you're going to be more effective at your job, you're going to be more of hero at your company for what you do, and you're going to meet the people that will help you do that. And lo and behold, we're not just a bunch of commission -breadth salespeople. There's a couple of them out there, but most of us are really interested in finding ways to, we're interested. I think that's the most important word. We're not there to be interesting. I had somebody tell me that once. Be interested, not interesting. It's truly a group that's interested in learning from each other and figuring out ways ultimately to make it all better. So yeah, there's really no reason not to. Brent Peterson (16:37.102) Yeah, no, met a merchant at last year who had come the year before and learned about Hoofa and was able to get that whole theme installed and deployed. their site went up 10 times in speed and they accredited coming to a Meet Magento event and learning more about what's happening and how Magento continues to grow. that was just a huge payoff for them. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (17:05.54) We had a very similar experience. that's another thing too for other agencies and solutions integrators. If you're feeling apprehensive about bringing your merchants to these events, the people that are signed up with you, that you're under contract or retainer, or just even starting out, mean, don't be. You're a great SI. Your merchants wanna be with you. There's a reason that they signed up with you. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (17:34.484) You know, they're they're gonna recognize if there's vultures out there and they're gonna laugh at them and chew them away, you know, and there really aren't many if any that would show up to these meet magento events, you know, and so Bring bring your merchants like that. Sometimes it takes us to help show them that and we had one of our cherished clients that we had just gotten started with that we brought to meet magento New York and They, we hosted a dinner. had some representatives from Hoover at the dinner. We had some representatives from Adobe commerce at the dinner. and you know, they, they actually hadn't, we had recommended Hoover, but they hadn't actually approved it yet. And that helped really kind of build that familiarity and comfort to move forward with it. and so there's, that's another reason to, to bring, you know, your merchants, if you're a solutions integrator is because, know, you get to introduce them to all the different solutions. and technology partners that you need to help build their success. like it helps, we don't have to like do as much work like selling these things. It's just, you see what it looks like in the flesh, you know, with all of us working together. You see that there's human partners that make this happen, which is, you know, half the battle beyond the technology. Brent Peterson (18:54.892) Yeah, that's great. Let's, let's change directions a little bit and talk about the Magento Association, which is the, we're both on the membership committee and the Magento Association is responsible for, for promoting and organizing or helping to not organize, but helping to get event coordinators or event people for, for these events. Tell us a little bit about your experience with Magento Association. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (19:26.212) I think it's not as much of an OG as you are there and a lot of other folks, but I've been working with the Magento Association for a few years now, a couple years, a few years, somewhere around there. I'm a member, I've been on associate boards and boards and other committees on various different organizations. And I think, like when you asked me first about why attend and I was like, hey, you consider taking it further, becoming involved. I personally believe that anything that is worth involving yourself with is worth also helping to make better and to steer and to contribute some of your own bandwidth towards. Obviously you can't do that with everything in life, but choosing a few that are very relevant to the worlds that we live in and the type of work that we do has been critical for me personally. I work with the Association of Equipment Manufacturers. I'm on a couple board committees, board level committees there and task forces, some local sort of alternative chamber of commerce here in Portland. But being that e -commerce is core to our business and that Magento is core to e -commerce, it was kind of a no -brainer to get involved and to find an opportunity to do so. So that was... the initial motivation, I would say, for that. then, you know, that's evolved over the years. Part of being part of an, a big part of being a part of an organization or a committee or anything is being critical of it. Not in a, you know, in a bad way, but like, or in a destructive way, but in a very constructive way. You know, if you want to make something better, you got to figure out what isn't working. You can't make things better that are perfect. And hey, So, you know, I think that's a great part of it too. And you and I have done some, you know, continue to work to see the evolution of the Magento Association, to see how it's grown, how it's addressed some of the, you know, criticisms and some not as constructive criticisms over the past, you know, but to sort of morph those into a constructive fashion inside the belly of the beast, because it is a very powerful and important group. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (21:52.02) it serves a unique role in our community and especially in sort of the evolution, the changing face after Adobe's acquisition. And even before that, you and I have seen Magento bounce around from being privately held to... eBay, PayPal, Divested, know, private equity, know, like it back to privately held, then, you know, Adobe, like it's just, it's gone through so many shapes and forms, but there's, there's sort of a current that holds it together. That is the community. And there are other voices in the community. There's also other great community organizations that, know, are kind of sister associations of the Magento Association, but the Magento Association is the Magento Association. so It becomes that common thread throughout all of it, an advocate for that community. And back to the events, that's not a small thing. You and I were talking about this on our committee meeting the other day, but to be the governing board that sanctions and started off the meat magento events and sanctions them globally at a large scale. Of course, it's individual producers that actually put in a lot of... the vast majority of the leg work, the blood, sweat and tears to actually make those events happen. But it takes that governing board to actually legitimize it, to sanction it, to create it in the first place and to keep that going. And that's huge. If that was the only thing the Magento Association did, I would say that would be more than worth being involved with it. the good news is it's just a fraction of what the Magento Association does. Brent Peterson (23:38.028) Yeah, I would. And you mentioned in the very beginning a little bit, some people are critical about it and we should be critical and having constructive criticism, I think is the most important part. One way that the only way that anybody can be part of the solution is to join the membership, join Magento Association as a member. Otherwise you're just sitting on the sidelines complaining. And I'll be honest, it has come a long ways in since Mateus took over. It is like night and day, I think, in terms of how the engagement is in the community. He's at seems like he's at every single event. Just talk a little bit about, you know, joining and, and the kind of feedback you can give all those, maybe the privileges you get as a member. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (24:32.708) Sure. Yeah, Matias has been transformational for sure, as is his staff of one. Jorg has been amazing too. And great host, by the way, had an awesome time. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (24:55.412) but over there, but yeah, I think the ongoing sort of calibration and having the people that are in the leadership position, obviously it's, you know, is critical. Having that drive, that passion and the ability to sort of not, you know, to speak your mind. And I think, you know, to be able to not shy away from the hard conversations. Not be defensive, but also make sure you set the record straight because a lot of the kind of side busting that you're talking about, people just sort of shouting from the sidelines that get in the game. It's like I just don't, I won't say I disrespect people that do this, but there's a lot less respect for people that just like to complain. It's like, if it's that bad, either do something to make it better, just go away. You let's, you know, go do something else, you know, like if it's, if it's that terrible, or if you care about it enough that you keep talking about it, there's room for that, you know, to come in and make it better. That's what we want. You know, this is, it's a group of people that, you know, have, have a one diverse group of people with diverse set of opinions. And, and, you know, we don't always agree. In fact, a lot of times we don't. But one thing that we do have is, you know, like we got our eyes on the prize. You know, we know where we're headed and what we want to do. And so, you know, you got to be a part of it to make a change. And I've really enjoyed seeing the membership grow. There's some new, you know, what we've done with the new tiers, the new approaches. One of the reasons I hopped on board. As I will say only to promote to other people not to promote myself the first platinum member of the Magento Association But you know, I really want you know, I you got to put your money where your mouth is Memberships individual memberships don't even really cost that much. It's nominal, you know, it's You know for less than a cup of coffee a day. You could be a member. I think it's actually much less than that But you know, it's more than just you know, the dudes which are you Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (27:13.54) Relatively little I've been a lot of associations that it's way more but it's the opportunity to Hop in into a committee and you know if you want to be a part of committee, maybe I'm busy as heck You know, I was I worked a 20 -hour day yesterday but you know This is a priority for me and because it's something that we spend our time in and it affects our lives it affects our colleagues our employees our partners or clients, you know, and so to It's not I really look at as a volunteer thing. I look at it as almost I don't want to say duty, but I look at it as an investment Really in the product that we're all here delivering Brent Peterson (27:58.146) Yeah, I wonder if MA tote bags would be the way that we're gonna get more membership. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (28:04.3) Yeah, mean, you know, swag is always a good way to go about it. .A. branded rock star head pieces. Brent Peterson (28:18.286) Noah, we have a few minutes left. I want to give you a chance to kind of talk about ATF and what you're doing and all the different things you're doing for the Magento in the Magento world and Adobe Commerce world. So, you know, let's kind of close out with ATF and the work you're doing and let's focus on the Magento space. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (28:39.94) Sure, yeah, so as I mentioned earlier, one of the things that I've really enjoyed, especially since this last, you since we put on Meet Magento in New York, but really historically has been engaging with the global community and not just in some altruistic, you know, peace, love and hair grease, you know, world harmony thing, which is a big part of it. But in a very business sense, when you have personnel shifts and changes in staff and key roles, the ability to have folks that want to come work at your organization because of what you've done or the time you've put in that they could see that you actually give a shit about this community and the work that you've produced is probably the biggest badge of honor that I've had. as a business owner. Some of the most incredible talent that I get to work with that, you know, hops on board, you know, to help out either sometimes as like a part -time permanent contractor, sometimes as full -time employees, sometimes, you know, as a bridge between things, but just, you know, that has been more over the last year prevalent than I've ever seen it. You know, our team is built, we were founded by somebody I worked with at one Magento agency and then somebody else I worked with at another Magento agency. then we pulled consistently from all over the global Magento world to find our team and to find our sort of way in our identity. And so in relation to the Magento community, that's been a focus of mine over this last. well, seven years that we've been around, but especially over this last year to get more engaged in that global community. As far as the work we do, like I said, are platform agnostic. The majority is still in the Magento Adobe Commerce world. I really enjoy the folks that traverse that, the folks at Adobe Commerce that are supporting. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (31:04.42) the Magento world and the open source world. There's still a strong core contingency there that I get to engage with on a regular basis over at Adobe that supports the Magento world that is there for the clients and end results and what we're doing. more and more partners, and you mentioned Hoover earlier, strengthening partnerships with, I mentioned Ravi as well, a Headworks. Other folks like MSD, know, we're, you know, we love to put on webinars with these partners to showcase work that shared work that we've done together. You know, not just to say, Hey, here's another webinar. Everybody's seen, you know, a thousand webinars a day, but like, here's some really relevant content. Here's, here's all the different people that built something for this person, you know, all the different companies that built something for this company to be able to be much better. Let's talk about what we've done together. So, know, hey, sure, if you want to come work with us, great, but let's at least we are going to inspire somebody else to see what they can do. And so, you know, that's that's a big reason why, you know, we've also built out a digital marketing team. It's it's small but mighty. But it's it's it's there to support both internal efforts, not just our clients efforts, but, know, to actually help do a lot of that partner engagement that otherwise like myself alone wouldn't have bandwidth to do. So we're able to, you know, engage to do. of those pieces. Not everybody's like you that can do like a billion and one things at once, right? So you know some of us have to actually hire out for some of these things. Brent Peterson (32:42.186) Yeah, that's all relative and we all think everybody else is doing so much more and really I just sit around and put jokes on Facebook all day and then watch TV. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (32:46.829) Hahaha Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (32:52.088) That's doing the most though. That really is. That really is. But yeah, you know, the other part about, you know, above the fray and really just sort of on the business side or the growth side is, you know, it's an interesting time. think, you know, we've had a lot of interesting discussions about, you know, in our industry. You know, I used to run a group called Rising Tide of fellow agency owners and leaders that we get together and kind of. Brent Peterson (32:53.654) Yep. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (33:19.908) notes, scars, war stories, whatever you want to call it. But really with sort of all the fluctuations in the economy and how people are doing business and apprehension and excitement and the ebbs and flows of all of that, I think it's even more important than ever that we've had other people that you'd consider competitors that we're partnering with to help. you know, with certain situations to help strengthen our businesses, to find new ways to grow our businesses, to provide, you know, service to more folks. I found, and this is one thing that I think is one of the most important things, the biggest competition is not another SI, another agency. By far, if I go through my CRM and I look at everything that's closed, lost over the last few years, it's probably, vast majority is just inaction. It's merchants that have decided to do nothing or continue sort of along a status quo. And that's with talking to several of us. so I'd like to think it's not just a bad job of us showing the way, but it's us needing to put our heads together to figure out better ways to show that way. And that doesn't just happen with us backbiting and being competitive. And competitive is great, but collaborative, the co -opetition. and solving how to get past a lot of this inaction. We know what we can do, right, for the merchants. And we know what we can bring to the table. We gotta find better ways of showing them that because the service that we provide is highly valuable. It's highly valuable to their business, to their careers, to their lives, and to the lives of everybody else at their businesses and that their business... does business for. So, you know, that when it comes to duty, that kind of is our duty. That is what we provide as solutions integrators is being able to show how integrating these solutions can do that. you know, I think I want to look into 2025 with a renewed focus on how we can collectively do that to kind of really raise that tide and to to get people out of that inertia, to get merchants out of that inertia that they're in, whether it's because of Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (35:47.466) apprehension for elections or economies or global pandemics. mean, there's, you know, those are all big things, obviously, but there's always going to be big things, you know, we, we can be a driving force for, you know, business growth and stability and efficiency. so we got to put our heads together, do it better. Brent Peterson (36:13.646) Yeah, I mean, think you kind of hit the nail on the head there, especially around how the Magento community is, I feel unique in the sense that all of the other agencies do talk to each other and we don't see, we don't necessarily have a confrontational relationship. And I will say in 2021, when I still had, was at Wajento up until 23, when I left, you and I, don't feel like our relationship has changed a lot. You know, I feel like we're still friends and we still collaborate and we still talk about things that are happening in the industry. And maybe we, maybe we're, we can be more open about clients and things like that. But it, you know, as a core relationship and as a core friendship, I see all the different agency heads and owners and employees as being you know, as being friends in that, in that community is unique and Magento in the sense that we all come together with a common goal. As you said, and one of those, I agree with one of those common goals is definitely, getting clients to move and do something rather than just sit on it. Right. There's still people on Magento one, but I think you really brought up a great point and kind of that core thing that, that is what the Magento community represents. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (37:43.128) Yeah, I would even go further than saying that, you know, not only has our relationship not changed, but it's been you and other leaders in the space that have helped folks like me that, you know, to be, you know, have a modicum of success with our, with my company. You know, it's the willingness to, you know, not like, you know, be the crabs in the barrel mentality, but instead like, and, you know, know, showing the way and providing insight and. support and you know it doesn't always mean that it's like hey you know come here i'm going to do everything for you in fact that would be terrible and that's not usually the case but it's not like that you know holding somebody's head under the water when they're trying to you know swim upstream you know swim upstream so you know and it's it's definitely a more of like hey here's have you have you tried you know getting in a raft and paddling this way, like instead of trying to swim in this current, yeah, thanks. That kind of stuff makes all the difference. Sometimes it's just like a sentence or two that can change a game for somebody. And in turn, that's why the importance of doing that for each other is all the more critical. I do remember when it wasn't always like that too. And I think that I have seen a change. are definitely some, you know, over a decade and a half ago, there used to, feel like there was a lot more contention. There was, you know, was kind of, was some flash points and rivalries and things like that. And I'm not going to say it's completely all kumbaya across the industry. You know, there's definitely still some of that that happens, but by and large, you're absolutely right. You know, this, this. Brent Peterson (38:55.426) That's us. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (39:23.81) I've always said, that's what I love about Portland, Oregon, because we've got what they call us like the silicone forest here. And we have a great thriving design and technology scene and agency scene in a lot of different ways. And it's very unique here in Portland where that really is the way. It's definitely helping hands everywhere. It's rising tines everywhere. And I feel like, especially as you get engaged, in the US, but also globally. That's what this Magento community is about. Brent Peterson (39:59.244) Yeah, that's perfect. Noah Oakenberg, it's been such a pleasure and thank you so much for being here. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (40:05.326) Thank you, Brent, for having me on. Appreciate you. Brent Peterson (40:07.926) Noah Oakenberg is the co -founder of Above the Fray and I would encourage you to visit him at Abovethefray .com. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (40:16.248) dot i -o actually yeah yeah i'm still battling some some some guy that won't give up the dot com he's just got it parked so until then we're in that i -o world Brent Peterson (40:17.848) That's what I meant, .io. Brent Peterson (40:28.11) Noah Oakenberg is the co -founder and CEO of Above the Fray and you can find him at abovethefray .io. Noah Oken-Berg | ATF (40:38.392) Thanks, Brent.