Latest / Rev-n-u Unplugged / Granted Trust: Why the Best Leaders Don't Wait for Trust to Be Earned
Transcript
- james: Gary, welcome to Revenue Unplugged. I've been looking forward to this conversation for some time. ⁓ we've had some great planning sessions, and ⁓ I think what you're gonna share with us today is gonna be super useful. ⁓ as a way of getting started, I always ask my guests just to give the audience a bit of background as to ⁓ to who you are. gary pfeiffer: Brilliant. Well, thank you, James, for having me here. This is a really a good opportunity. So, my name's Gary Pfeiffer. I'm the Chief Revenue Officer of Nightfall AI. We're a data protection company focused on AI, endpoint, and SaaS security. I've ⁓ been a people coach and a people leader for the last 30 years throughout the ⁓ information security space and ⁓ also spent some time at ⁓ Amazon Web Services. It was a wonderful experience. So thirty years of people, ⁓ leadership and coaching and coaching, which we're gonna talk about today, James, is is ⁓ one of my passions and one of the things I feel most rewarding ⁓ in my in my career, in my day to day job. james: Yeah. I I guess that's probably a a really good place to to start because it came across in all the conversations, even before we we we we spoke about doing the podcast together. It becomes apparent that coaching and mentoring is high on your agenda and it with all the topics that we could talk about ⁓ from your experience as a successful CRO, this was what meant a lot to you. So so just walk us through the audience why this means so much to you and why you want to talk about it. So they've got that flavour. gary pfeiffer: That's a that's a a a good starting question. So for me, the the one thing, when you become a people leader, the the words you possess take on a certain weight to them. They take on a certain weight, and the opportunity becomes not only an opportunity to coach, but it almost, James, in a way, becomes an obligation. And so i it it's always been important to me that if you work with teams and teams of teams over time, as leaders our opportunity is to help each individual and each team just get better. You know, people have temporary remits at their companies, three, five years. And doing great work and fulfilling their promise is super important. I've always believed that It's my obligation and opportunity to help everybody get better so that when they leave here or get promoted or go on to the next, they can carry that with them. And ⁓ I think that's an important part of legacy. I think it's an important part of our ⁓ obligation to the folks that work to the folks that work with us. james: Yeah. I I guess that's a good place to start 'cause you've mentioned weight of words to me before, ⁓ and it's enormous in in coaching. But can you take us back to a moment either as a coach or someone being coached where a single conversation genuinely changed the trajectory of that person's moment, career, deal? gary pfeiffer: Yeah, we I I'm I'm blessed, fortunate to have ⁓ to have a lot of those. And ⁓ one that comes to mind ⁓ immediately, I kinda left my mind open and I said, Let it when you ask me the question, let it wander. I had one individual way back when who was a first time people leader. And like a lot of first time people leaders, I inherited this person about one year into their tenure. james: Yeah. gary pfeiffer: And they did everything wrong. ⁓ they tried to be the superstar seller instead of the coach, leader, and enabler. And by the time I had met this person, they were run down, frenetic. It had it affected their health as well. And so some of the more important parts was for this individual identifying and and coaches, coaching is all about creating awareness. identifying self awareness and then pulling it out to examine it and trying to get you better. So I was able to help this person realize what they were doing, how it was impacting the team and themselves negatively. And I remember one time I was looking across from this person at a at a table who was in our war room at the end of quarter, and I looked at him and I said, You realize you've got the hardest job in the entire company as a first line people leader in a big company. And it was like I said something so amazing a a huge weight came off this person's shoulder. They felt isolated. And what ended up happening was because this person had gone so deep into the the the reverse trajectory, I didn't think they could pull out of it. So I actually coached them. I said, I'm gonna end up putting you back into the field, regain your health, mental and physical. james: Mm. Hmm. gary pfeiffer: Learn from this experience. This is not terminal. This is a reset. Get healthy, spend more time with your family, ⁓ learn a bit so that when you come out the next time as a people leader, you're gonna be amazing because you're gonna have learned from this. So not terminal, but necessary. And it took a month or two before this person looked at me the same way. I'll tell you that. But now looking at their career. Ten years later, it was the exact right thing to do. ⁓ it it took some courage, but over time the things that take the most courage take less and less courage because my if your heart's in the right place, courage follows. james: It's that's a really interesting story. Thank you for sharing that. why did you feel that was the right course of action to take? gary pfeiffer: So here's where coaching mixes in with the the math and the business. I cared about this person. I got to meet them, had dinner with the individual, his wife, my wife. So there was a relationship there. I really liked this person. I respected their talent. ⁓ I also had to make the determination, James, that if they accepted my coaching, they were gonna go on to a great career. If they didn't, I had to make a different change. And one that I didn't wish to make, but would have had to occur if this didn't go right. So it added a little urgency and a little temperature to the conversation. But at the end of the day, the outcome was right. And like I said, I think if your heart's in the right place and and and and a at a time my mine was, then I think you're gonna get the right outcome because your authenticity and your sincerity will come across. And the person can listen to pretty tough stuff, but in a non defensive way. And and I think creating that s safe opportunity to have a good sharing of hearts and minds is really where coaching can begin. That's that's been my experience. james: So how do you for any leaders that are listening to this that need to have that type of conversation? Because I'm sure you're not alone ⁓ in that, how do you set that conversation up? What words do you use in that conversation? And this is a number of questions in one, by the way, you've probably noticed. ⁓ and can you do it over Zoom video, or does it need to be in person? gary pfeiffer: No. Wow, those are some great questions. So I think I'll I'll start from the the top. So how do you set that conversation up? That's a conversation that is many conversations in building to that psychological safe space, that trust, the ability to ask the hard questions in a non pressurized way. So when we had that crucial conversation We had had hundreds of conversations, whether they were social, over coffee, lunch, transactional. So there was trust there. Then then it's also creating a safe space where the person realizes that we're here to talk about something and you sort of separate the person from the behaviors, from the outcome, and 'cause the at the end of the day in this conversation, the person's the most important thing. What the outcome is is secondary. So you set it up that way to be safe and then y you know the the things that you have to build, James, trust you have to develop. And if you ask me for the formula for that, we could spend eons developing that. But I think it's credibility, consistency, and people know when you care. And I think this is one of the more important things. If you care, people will listen and create trust and open their heart, open their mind and be transparent. ⁓ because you can't fake sincerity. People have tried, doesn't work. So if people feel like you care and you're sincere, you can make some magical things happen and you can really help people's careers. You can help them in bad times and then you can help them accelerate in great times. ⁓ but you've got to create those you gotta create the trust, you gotta create the opportunity and you've got to put them in a safe space where they're they realize that you're here to help ⁓ get better. And james: No. gary pfeiffer: Most people realize, James, when they're in a great spot and they feel it. They also realize when they're in a not good spot and they want help. You just have to give it to them in the right way that they can digest to help them get better. But I think everybody wants to get better. They want the validation of the great things they do and they they want to be better. Like any athlete, like any student, they they want to be their best. james: Yeah. Yeah. gary pfeiffer: So if you can get across to them, that's what that's why you're there, and there's no or else, then you can have some magical conversations. You can really make a difference. james: Yeah. And and do you find the need in those situations to be quite direct with your language? so that there's no misunderstanding. 'cause I know that it can be easier on those times to try and be too nice without ripping the band aid off, ⁓ and getting to the point and leaving the person confused to what was just said. gary pfeiffer: So I'll give you a couple of points on that. So clarity is critical because there can be no confusion on these points. So I find it good to reinforce. Okay, James, this is what we just talked about. And here's how we're landing. Right? And that sort of thing. ⁓ I I I think that is super ⁓ important. Most people though, so I've been you know. I grew up as an athlete and I'm a a coach. Most people when you ask them, hey James, how how would you like me to give you feedback? Nine out of ten say, ⁓ I want it direct, just give it to me. And when they say it, they mean it, but in reality they don't. So because sometimes direct feedback can really shake somebody. And and most time feedback, again, it's the weight of your words. So I can I can through one haphazard remark, one sarcastic joke, throw a a brick at somebody, ⁓ it lands. And it's gonna harm them, maybe for a period of time, maybe for the duration of our relationship. But I also have the ability to hand them something equally heavy and good. And I can send, you know, I can send them home flying and accelerate them and make them feel wonderful. So ⁓ I think for each person it's a little different. I think it's established through the course of your trust building. You have to be direct, but direct doesn't mean crappy. It can be gentle, respectful, with a good heart. ⁓ but it needs to be clear and it needs to be in a way that people can digest it. And and James, as as many different humans as there are, that's how many different ways of having the conversation there are. But ultimately to your point. james: Yeah. gary pfeiffer: Nobody can leave that conversation unclear as to what you're doing, why you're doing it, how it's going to happen. Because at the end of the day, too, you're coaching people and they're going to go different things. And you want to make sure that that room is a trusted room, that when that door closes, they know they're if they express a fear or a concern that it's sacrosanct. And you live that over time. You live that over time. You can't declare it. You've got to prove it. You kind of got to walk that walk. james: Makes sense. And should it be done in person? Can it be done over video? Does it matter as long as you get the wording right? gary pfeiffer: I will tell you this. I I've gone back and forth on this so many darn times. I'm probably a little bit old school in that truly capital C crucial conversations should happen knee to knee. Sitting together like this, complete attention, no distractions, phones off, let's be here together. And I think once you do that, the ⁓ the The recipient of the coaching realizes that my focus, my intent is as great as theirs. So I'm a big hand-to-hand person in that way. I like it better because you get you you can you can feel the vibrations, you can feel the goodness, you can feel the anxiety, you can feel when the temperature's rising, and you can modulate. It's a little harder over Zoom. And over Zoom, you never actually know. When the person hits the close button, are they okay? Or have you altered them differently? So in this day and age with more remote, I think you have to get more comfortable coaching, critical things. And and I have over time, but it's been a reluctant development for me because I'm like, God, I'd really rather be face to face, but I can't wait. ⁓ I can't wait a month. ⁓ and other times I've said, you know what, this conversation can wait a month. james: Yeah. gary pfeiffer: 'Cause we've gotta be here. So I go back and forth on it. Can it be done? Yes, it's better face to face. ⁓ but that's one th I I think that would make a great conversation because be the ability to give great coaching over over Zoom, I think is more and more a necessity. And I've taken up to it. But I think when you get to that top ten percent of cruciality where the sentiment is high and the stakes are high, it's gotta be face to face. That's my opinion. james: Yeah. ⁓ I would be on on that side of the fence as well. I think you can do great coaching over video call, but it comes to those types of conversations, the arm around the shoulder, ⁓ it needs to be face to face. There is so many things great leaders do, picking up on body language, the feeling in the room, which you just can't get over video. And also you will learn more and get more out of the person you've just spoken to once the conversation's finished. And you can put your arm around that person and say, by the way, I've got you. You know, this is where we are. I've got your back. We're going to do this as you're walking away. And you can also pick up later on and something right can have another conversation. You're right. With Zoom, conversation ends. They're in a bad place. What could they do next? Recruiter message them. Next thing they know they're having a conversation there. Because it's it's such tiny so I think look, so much can be done over video and I think it should be. But those types of conversations are a an in person physical conversation if you want to get the best response. gary pfeiffer: Well a and ⁓ and I'll add something to that, James. I think there's opportunities where if you and I had a real heart to heart and you were giving me some really rich coaching and and it was meaningful, it was impactful, it was intended to be. We could have the follow up conversation on Zoom. We can do the check ins on Zoom, we can do the how you doin' on Zoom. But that first bit nothing nothing changes that tangible, fungible. james: Yeah. Yeah. No, not at all. gary pfeiffer: Just nothing nothing and it's it's the same I would almost say it translates the same way with customers, you know, over Zoom. We can have great conversations, but are you getting that y walking into the meeting, hey, heads up about this, or walking out of the meeting, watch out for this? Not as much. So I think that's one of the key things that we talk about and and I believe this, is that technology's great. wonderful companies, wonderful customers. At the end of the day, and I think it started a little bit with COVID, James. Customer relationships and trust is always the number one thing. More than technology, ever. Technology changes. One day you have an advantage, one day you don't. But the way you treat your employees and the way you support your customers never changes. james: Love it. Moving on to ⁓ question two. there's a lot of noise around the word manager ⁓ in organizations at the moment. You clearly see a distinction between managing people and leading and coaching them. Where does that distinction live for you? and how does that live for you in day to day? gary pfeiffer: So I am I'm passionate about this particular topic. And I remember I've said this to more than one candidate where they say to me, I wanna I wanna be in management. And I words matter. So I said, okay, but we're not talking about management, we're talking about leadership and coaching. Management to me has a very unit of work you know, hours of effort, levels of effort, type of approach to it. More like a factory floor or a conveyor belt than people building relationships. If you want you can lead people into battle, you can't manage people into battle. You can coach people to greatness, you can't manage people to greatness. So what I can tell people, and this goes toward the conversation about motivation. I can inspire people over time by doing the right thing consistently. Can I motivate you, James? I might be able to give you a great speech and you'll get a hit of dopamine and it'll last you for 120 seconds, maybe even an hour. But inspiration can last you over a long period of time. So leadership, coaching, you see it in the sports world, you see it on the global stage. Leadership and coaching will get you everywhere. Management, management lends to micromanagement and The trust is lost in the management conversation, but it's built in the leadership and coaching conversation. So I think where it shows up is in your orientation and in your spirit. Whereas you can see and feel this person is leading people to or coaching them up. And it's certain chemicals, I think it's certain orientation, heart and mind, in the way you present yourself to folks. And ⁓ if they feel the leadership and coaching, they're gonna want to get on board with that. Heck, who doesn't? Right? I've had great leaders and great coaches. I've had some of the greatest leaders and coaches, James, and folks I emulate and want to try to to be more like. And some of the guys that I emulate james: Yeah. gary pfeiffer: Or try to emulate. They're they don't they don't fully know how much I appreciate them. I've I've shared it over time, but I'm following their lead, even though I only got to see them maybe from one click away. So we make a big difference. People are always watching and when they're wondering how things are going for themselves, the company, their customers, they they look up. And on the occasion we become the up. So we need to do a good job. coaching the folks and giving them confidence. james: So it becomes onto an interesting point. If somebody's hiring a leader right now, what are the characteristics of a good coach? If you were hiring a VP of sales now and you wanted them to be a good coach outside of experience and knowledge, what characteristics are you looking for that helps you to identify if this person is a coach or not? gary pfeiffer: That's a great question. It's it's hard to test for. ⁓ you know, the number one the number one thing I look for is ownership and self-awareness. Because there's an old adage and I won't do a very good job with it, but in order to coach others, you know, first master yourself. So somebody who's really self aware, I think, can be a good coach because they'll see foibles in others that they probably saw in themselves. And and a lot of the best coaching I've ever done is because let me tell you where this is going, let me tell you what happens when, and I'll tell you exactly why, because I've made this mistake before. And I think that's one of the more powerful things we as leaders can do is share from our own mistakes. And and I think for myself, as I've gotten more mature and secure, I'm very willing to talk about all the foul ups I've had and all the mistakes I've made and bad judgments. But your question is what makes a a coach a great coach? Ownership, self-awareness, trustworthy, credible? I would say with a a modest ego. Because the things I like to know, James, are tell me about somebody you hired that was better than you. Tell me about somebody that you hired and coached that's exceeded your greatness. And I I I don't want leaders, you know, leaders' jobs isn't to make leaders' jobs is to make more leaders. So tell me about somebody you've coached that's gone on one, two, three levels because of your influence. I look at that. I I I like people who are passionate, ⁓ not emotional, passionate, but also clinical, that they can look at the data, they can do it thoughtfully and with a good heart. If you can do those things, you're gonna do a wonderful job, you know, and We always talk about people who are you know were athletes and are used to getting coached and now are coaches. ⁓ but it can be true of any devotion that somebody has where you're getting good coaching and rich feedback to make you better. But those those are some of the things I look for. And a lot of it you can you can feel. You can j you can just feel in the conversation some of the things I'm saying. shared values. Shared values I think is also important. james: Yeah. Makes sense. gary pfeiffer: To the best of to the best of our ability to tease that out. james: Yeah. ⁓ psychological safety gets spoken about a lot at the moment. But creating that kind of environment, particularly in a remote world that we're in at the moment, ⁓ is super challenging. So how do you actually build that trust with someone ⁓ that tech can't develop? gary pfeiffer: Yeah. Well, I th I think you know, for for this conversation, James, I I I talk in in two ways with with folks. I I I've learned something over time and it's called permissions-based coaching. Whereas one way folks can do it is say, Hey James, I have to give you some feedback. I saw something and I we need to talk about Okay, your immediate reaction is, ⁓ shoot, I must have fouled something up. Gary's gonna read me the Riot Act, and here we come. The better answer is, James, I I would love to give you some feedback. Would it be okay? Like, is now a good time? Can we set some time so I can just give you some thoughts or observations? Would that be okay? Now you're you're likely to say, Yes, now I have your permission. But I've had I've had some, let's say, recalcitrant folks who when I say, Hey, I'd love to give you some feedback, would that be okay? And they say something akin to, sure, give me your fill-in-the-blanks feedback. And and at that point, literally, I I I've had occasions where I'm like, No, now's not the time. You just, you know, when you say give me some effing feedback, I'm gonna take a step back and say, now's not the time, and I don't want to force it, I'm here to help. But I'm also smart enough to know if somebody's receptive or not. And I'll wait till they're receptive. And if they never get receptive, that's a different conversation. But a lot of times folks will gnash with you. But when you get them into a more comfortable place where you've built that trust, it makes for a better conversation. So ⁓ stating your intentions, being consistent. Setting the right example over time, recognizing and declaring that this is a closed room, this is a safe space. You can say anything. I'm here to help. Once you give that permission and once you get permission to give the feedback, you can have a wonderful conversation. And but that's earned over time. Because that person is going to be looking at every other person you coached and saying, Hey, that got better. But I didn't hear anything about that. There's no discussions there. making sure there's no crosstalk and making sure that each relationship is sacrosanct. While when you broadcast your values, messaging, and intent, it seeps into everybody's mind and heart. So they know that when you approach, it's from a good place. By the way, I'm saying these things as a matter of fact. It it takes time and intent and not everybody's immediately receptive. And sometimes as you get a little more james: Yeah. gary pfeiffer: mature and secure you learn. Not everybody needs to convert on day one. You convert them one at a time. And the early, I'll say adopters, are the ones that are going to get most of the benefit. And the ones that want to remain aloof, maybe less of the benefit. But that's not to castigate or criticize. People are at different stages of career and life. Maturity, security, stress. I wouldn't have said this twenty years ago, but today when I coach people, I'm not coaching the employee, I'm coaching the person. And my first questions are always like, How's your headgear? How's everybody at home? How are you feeling? And now they real and if you ask that question often enough, that should be the first question in every one on one. How's your headgear? How you doing? You feeling all right? How's your confidence? How's your optimism? And just get people james: Yeah. gary pfeiffer: thinking and talking in a way that is productive, constructive and positive. I would say if you can get them in that motion, you're gonna get a good outcome. ⁓ you're gonna get a good outcome. james: Love that. Yeah. ⁓ love all of that. Gonna move on to one of my favourite topics ⁓ in and around this. ⁓ understanding someone's why, their story, their drivers. I feel that at the moment there's a lot of lack of understanding a salesperson's why. ⁓ and I would love to get your take on what you believe understanding someone's why is, why you need to know their why. And what you do with it. gary pfeiffer: This that's a I love that question. So I have had a lot of coaching conversations with individual contributors, James, who come to me at a certain point in their career. Of course they always say, I want to be a manager. And my question to them is always, Okay, cool. Why? And you get some rotten answers. I don't I don't want to be a seller my whole life, or I'm at a certain Point in my career that I should. And those are pretty weak whys. Those are pretty weak whys. But if somebody has a strong why, I want to help others. I believe I've been really successful. I can scale the success through my coaching efforts. Ooh, that's powerful. I want to be a builder. I want to get closer to the business and some of the decisions. That's powerful. So, and being a people leader and a people coach. can be the greatest vocation in life and the most rewarding. And on other days it can be the exact opposite. Right? What our our jobs are the greatest in the world when they're great, when they're not, it's probably on the other side of the equation. And and the reason you test for the why is you know, it's what's the old saying from f from Man's Search for Meaning, if a man has a powerful why he can endure any how. It's quite a little different than that book, but in our own way we go through our own james: Hm. gary pfeiffer: Hows, but if you got the right why, that's powerful. That will galvanize you, that will get you through your higher purpose will get you through those tricky times. But if you've got a very skinny why statement, it'll all break down and really fast because you're not held up by any higher purpose. You're held up by something that's transaction layer at best, and it can you can punch through it readily. So I think that's important. And then I always ask people, James, about relationships, parents, family, how are they oriented? Did they come from a blue collar background or or or a privilege background? You know, were they a great student or a great athlete? Where are their regrets in life? Where can you help them make sure they take advantage of opportunities? And I can't tell you how many times that I've spoken with folks because I think most sellers, most pe people, James. They put governors on themselves of what they can achieve. And I can tell you stories after story about helping people take the governor off, helping them think bigger in a thoughtful, invitation driven way. And man, you can do some amazing stuff with people when you get them to take the governor off and see further, see more what's possible and believe it. Then you can unleash some really scary people in the world. to do some amazing stuff. To do some amazing stuff. james: Yeah. When should you be finding out someone's why purpose? Is that in the interview stage? Are you identing pe identifying people that have a true why at interview stage? ⁓ or is it at some point after you've hired someone? gary pfeiffer: The the answer is gonna be a little bit of both, and I know that's a little bit ⁓ of a of ⁓ of a not a strong answer on on my part. When I'm interviewing people, I'm looking for things like tell me about your greatest failure. And I I often leave it open-ended, James. I say, hey, it could be professional, could be personal. Go anywhere you want with it. What I'm looking for is self-awareness. I'm looking for ownership. I ask them what's important in their next job. And don't tell me money and opportunity and territory and technology. I want to hear what you're looking for from the values orientation. But the best conversation, so you can tease out some of that. Parents, sports, failures, successes, what what this all means to you. Over time, I always like to have a meal with folks, you know, a nice dinner, and just have those conversations. Tell me about your family. Tell me about growing up. What you how was your relationship with your mom, your dad, all that sort of stuff. ⁓ those things come through with people. They they still, I think, make a big difference. I've I've I could argue with you that I think a lot of people's characters Or at least spirit is, if not fully formed, somewhat formed by the time they're five years old. And now we're just developing on top of all the good things that we got from that standpoint and experiences shaping us and molding us. But all that foundation was set. So I think the most important thing coaches, now that I think about it, can do is when you look at somebody who's very different than you, that's okay. james: Yeah. gary pfeiffer: When I first started becoming a coach, I had this terrific bias that everybody needed to look like me, sound like me, do what I do, how I do it. Boy, was that dumb. Now, now I'm like, now, now my attitude is more hey, look, here's some core things that everybody has to do similarly. But the remainder is you be you. Use your style. I will tell people frequently, James, I trust your judgment. 'Cause I do. Use your best judgment, you'll do the right thing. Endo, by the way, and this is important too, you can't mess it up so bad that we can't fix it. So go and be thoughtful, confident, and go go make awesome stuff happen. And if something doesn't go right, don't worry about it. Like we all swing and miss. We all make an error. If it's if it's human and you made a mistake, okay, cool. Can we be pretty sure it's not gonna happen again? Why did it happen? Let's ex let's explore that. It's a good thing to know. But otherwise, I think giving trust to people is one of the greatest enablers. There's an old Eastern saying, James, that I really believe in. And the question is how do you make people trustworthy? And the answer is to trust them. And when you grant people trust, when you grant people trust, and you give them space to act in a trusted fashion, you're gonna get some amazing stuff. But you know, like Heisenberg's principle of observability, if you're hovering over a ⁓ over somebody, always examining, not trusting, well they're gonna find ways to get out of that loop that are maybe not trustworthy ways. james: Interesting. gary pfeiffer: So when you see great companies, great cultures, they're always grounded on trust. And when trust is there, you can give people space to be their best selves and they're confident that they're protected and safe. And I I share with my teams all the time, I would share this with any leader. Our jobs are to protect our teams and promote our teams. And in order to do that, you've got to have their trust and confidence as well. james: So I'm I would be right in saying that you sit on the side that you give trust, trust isn't earned. gary pfeiffer: I would I learned something a long time ago that has served me so well. And it's I think it's more than just a leadership mantra, James. I think it's a way of life. In that it's called granted trust. I learned this. And from the moment I started talking to you, I granted you my trust. I we probably share things in confidence and and I I trusted you. And I'll do that with others. Now I'm not saying being drunk and disorderly and reckless and give every new person, you know, your bank account code and that sort of thing. But I think you can trust them and then use your judgment when you trust them deeper and deeper. And I think you know right away whether that's a relationship that can go very, very deep or one that's gonna be a little more superficial. And all these things take time. But I think if you grant people trust, most people want to speak their minds, they want to speak their hearts. They wanna be heard, they wanna be understood. If you give them that avenue in the right way, you're gonna get great results. james: Love that. next question. When we speak, that you've you draw a clear line between day day coaching and strategic career coaching. How does that conversation change depending on which mode you're in? ⁓ and how do you know which one you actually need to give at that moment? Because I find sometimes it gets muddied into one. gary pfeiffer: That's a really thoughtful question. I I think when you're the tactical coaching is typically around A situation with a result And you're trying to coax the person to get the best outcome. And those are typically tactics with some strategy embedded. You know, like for example, I have a really, really talented earlier in career sales guy who works on my team. Phenomenal talent. And there's been a couple times where I've had to help him with messaging. Yeah, you want to soften this message because a sharp message here will put that person in the corner. soften the message and help them come out of the corner and come sit next to you. ⁓ little things like that. Tone, language, approach, strategy, when to be bold, when to be very bold. ⁓ the others is more so that could happen at a moment. Over you could do it over Slack. ⁓ that sort of thing. I think where it gets more interesting is when you set that conversation and now you're gonna sit down and talk about career coaching. And it's deliberate. I think it's intentional. And the person should come in prepared. And you should come in with some basic thoughts. Hey, I just want to evaluate performance, where you think you're awesome, and let's align on that. And where you can do better, let's align on that. And I'm also a big believer, James, if you've heard of the strength finders. Have you ever heard of the strength? I'm a big believer in that. So if James is great at five things, I want to make you the best in the world at those five things. james: Yes. gary pfeiffer: Because those are the things that make you powerful. The things that you let's see if you stink at. I have I have things on the bottom of the 26 that I stink at. Don't don't try to make me great at those. Don't try to make people great at things they stink at. Maybe try to soften them. Or if they flare up, try to put a way to tamp them down. But I'm also a big believer. Find the great skills and and then find them help on the other stuff. Or just be there to coach them. james: Yeah. every time I talk to you, as I said at the at the start, it's very clear that you are that that coach, that that mentor ⁓ character. Tell me about a situation that might have helped shaped you as the coach you are, the type of person that you are. Is it time during COVID, which was a very difficult time to manage, or is there a situation with a business what's helped? shape you into the coach, the leader you are today. gary pfeiffer: That's a that's such a good question. The I'll tell you a story. There's an old adage that says when the student is ready, the teacher will arrive. And so as a young early in career seller, I was burdened by early success. And somehow in my young mind, I was super special, I was better than the other kids, I knew I knew it all. You know, I had this overinflated sense of self, ego in my early selling career, it nicked me up a bit. And I had some great coaches. And I didn't always get the full benefit from it. Because I didn't had to have the conversation. I was always trying to prove myself and show versus listen and understand. And that's an immature, that's a young mind. And so many moons later I had a great coach ⁓ when I was at CA, ⁓ his name's David Earhart, wonderful person, wonderful coach. And I had told him, I said, you know, David, I've learned more from you than I had in from anybody, maybe, and certainly in a long time. And and his and he was grateful for the the comment, but I also did go out of my way to say, I had some other great coaches like you earlier in my career. I just was too damn arrogant or closed-minded to listen. And so when you realize now I could go back and replay the tapes of all the things I learned and it just explodes your knowledge. And now you realize there's all this power. And if I can harness it in a thoughtful way. Man, I could I could really make a big difference. And and and I'm compelled to make that difference for the people who made that difference to me. And and that to me some of those folks have meant so much and like I told you before, not some of them might be surprised to realize Gary's been emulating me or trying to come across it some of the ways I do. Hell yes. I w and ⁓ I actually got a compliment once, James. ⁓ one of my folks who worked with me said, You're starting to remind me of the of this one fella I try to emulate. He's like, You you remind me of him as the way I watched you grow up and you remind me of that fella. And I'm like, like wow. Like and I I don't think this person realized that this was a a direct report. The weight of their words, because I respected them and I loved them. james: There we go. Yeah. Yeah. gary pfeiffer: I I was blown away. I'm like, thank I I c I could not thank them enough. I have the I have their I have their face in my mind right now and I'm like that was and you know, so all these things are a matter in my in my estimation of doing the right things over an extended period of time. A lot of this is ⁓ reputation based because you've earned that and you know, it's a small world and james: Yeah. gary pfeiffer: the the way you or I bring ourselves into the world, it comes across, like even in our first conversation, it comes across thoughtfulness, the right spirit, the right heart. You can't make that stuff up. And people, especially you know, in our line of work, very cunning, very savvy. So if you're full of it, you'll get rooted out in a heartbeat. And now now I don't know what you're doing. Now now I don't now I don't know now I don't know what you got. james: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, that kind of segues into the last question I have for you before I let you get back to your busy day job. ⁓ we've talked about l ⁓ a lot of the positives there, what people should be doing. I want to ask you what are the cardinal sins of coaching? The things that are not only fail to help someone, but can actively damage them or their relationship. And gary pfeiffer: Thank you. Thank you. james: Why do so many well intentioned sales leaders still fall into that trap? gary pfeiffer: So Think transactional coaching and moving too fast is a sin that a lot of people fall into. You can't just snap your fingers, hey, I'm busy, I'm in an Uber, and give feedback. So giving feedback at the wrong time or the wrong place or when it's not invited, or if the person's of the wrong spirit at that moment, you know, if they're if their viscera is all turbled and you're trying to help them. when they're spinning. It's not gonna happen. So I think creating the right environment and caring. Now, here's the other thing too, James, there are many times that I'll coach people indirectly. Through a leader, I'll say, I see this. Have you talked to that person about this? Hmm, good observation. Let me go see. Like don't force it. Don't force it. Let it come. But have that conversation. So I think it's a matter of sometimes now and you gotta remember a lot of career a lot of leaders are earlier in their leadership career. So they may not have made as many mistakes yet. Maybe they need to make some new. But coaching isn't just if if I have a a group and leaders and there's also extended leaders, coaching comes from skip levels, it comes from peers, it comes from your community. And so you can't do it all yourself. But I I I would think if it's if it's reactive Or if people put the pressure of the business above the response and receptivity of their team. I I can see that happening too. We're all in a pressure-packed world. So if you let that pressure come through you in a coaching session, or James, if you don't ask for permission and and you're in a fouled up mood because maybe you didn't get the sale you wanted, or maybe you had trouble last night domestically, or you have a sick family member, and I come across heavy giving you feedback that you either don't want or are not ready for. That that's gonna leave a mark, that's gonna leave a mark on you, and it could damage the relationship. So there's nuance in all the things we're saying, because at the end of the day, we're humans. And there's an old saying, right? When you have more than one person, you have people problems. So you you you want to make sure that the environment is set. Co coaching is something that's consistent, but when it matters, when it's when when there's gravity to the words. james: Mm. Yeah. gary pfeiffer: You've gotta make sure you set it up right. 'Cause there's too much at stake. There's just too much at stake. And and I think when you're especially in a senior level, the way you coach your teammates, ⁓ you can coach publicly, never criticize publicly. Never criticize publicly. I've seen that. And if you wanna just crush somebody's heart, I've seen it and you're just like, Just want give that person a hug now. Should ⁓ there are certain times I you know, I've been called out publicly, but there's there's different, you know, different levels and different expectations of what we can endure and you need to know the difference. You know, people people in senior levels aren't just smarter, they're also a little more hopefully thoughtful, emotionally mature and resilient. That's part of why we're in these roles. ⁓ so I think you just have to know who the audience is. james: Yeah. I th I think that makes perfect sense. I used to work in a business where the boardroom it could get quite spicy in a certain way. And because I came from a footballing background, the dressing room was always a place where you could say what you wanted to say. And people took it that it may have been said in a fruity way, but it was meant endearingly and you could walk out of that dressing room knowing that there wasn't a problem. I don't have a problem with that person, but words needed to be said. The challenge was the the CEO knew I came from that background and knew they could be direct to me, but then couldn't be direct to other people. But then they're being direct to me in front of all the other people. And it's like, well hold on a minute. In a football dressing room we're all in it, we're all exchanging, but now you're coming at me But you won't come at the person next to me because you won't get the right reaction. And then suddenly I'm not going to give you the right reaction now because you're basically singling me out, even though their best intention was to get what he thought was the right thing from me. But the audience and the timing was totally wrong. gary pfeiffer: I remember this goes back to my first people leadership role, James, and I had a really nice group of peers and I had a coach, my first boss. great guy, but super tough leader. And one time I said, Hey Bill, you treat the rest of the team like gold and you treat me like crap. Like what gives you? And he's like, That's because you suck and they're awesome. And so therefore and I'm like, now, did he exactly mean that? No, but I was like his kid brother who he could just beat the living shit out of and he enjoyed it. And at the end of the day I kinda did too, once I realized that's what it was. But I'm like, hey, and I said it all jocularly, like, hey, you beat the snot out of me. What about he's like, that's because they're awesome and you stink. And I'm like, ⁓ man. And he could say it in such a way that I could receive that. I can just see him, I could hear him saying it. I'm like, james: Yeah. gary pfeiffer: All right, that's not the real reason, but I guess as far as reasons go, it's a reason we can look. james: Yeah. Love it. Well look, ⁓ Gary, I've really enjoyed all the conversations with you. ⁓ I super appreciate you taking time out to record this episode today. I think at the moment, more than ever, it's a it's a really critical time for leaders to really understand what coaching and mentoring is ⁓ and not managing. So thank you so much for stopping by and ⁓ and talking with us. gary pfeiffer: James, thank you for the time. Thank you for the opportunity. I hope we helped somebody today and I hope somebody picked up one or two things that were interesting to them that they could employ and and help somebody on their teams as well. So thank you for the chance. james: No ways, I'm sure it will. Right, let me stop. gary pfeiffer: Brilliant.