Latest / MyMaine Birth / 157. The Free Birth Society Scam: Midwife Maryn Green of Indie Birth shares her story of birth autonomy without the hype

Transcript

157. The Free Birth Society Scam: Midwife Maryn Green of Indie Birth shares her story of birth autonomy without the hype · MyMaine Birth

• 0:00
  I think we need to get back to doing our own work and just not contracting any of it out or thinking anything looks romantic to the point of like unbelievability, perhaps, you know, not that birth can't be beautiful, but like it just is gonna be what it is.
• 0:18
  So if you are going after a certain outcome, I suggest you be with what's inside your body, you know, and how that outcome might feel, for example.
• 0:31
  But how it looks, it doesn't really matter to me anymore.
• 0:37
  It doesn't really matter because it's all about our internal journey and what sets us up for motherhood, you know.
• 0:45
  So even having 10 babies, by that 10th baby, you think, oh, well, she must know something.
• 0:52
  And sure, my kids have definitely taught me a ton.
• 0:54
  But that last baby, what a teacher.
• 0:59
  I'm Angela, and I'm a certified birth photographer, experienced duela, childbirth educator, and your host here on the My Maine Birth podcast.
• 1:08
  This is a space where we share the real life stories of families and their unique birth experiences in the beautiful state of Maine.
• 1:16
  From our state's biggest hospitals to birth center births and home births, every birth story deserves to be heard and celebrated.
• 1:25
  Whether you're a seem-to-be mom, a seasoned mother, or simply interested in the world of birth, these episodes are for you.
• 1:34
  Hey everyone, welcome to episode 157 of My Main Birth.
• 1:39
  This episode is part of a series highlighting the difference between the idea of free birth, which can be a perfectly fine option for many healthy women, from the ideologies that were promoted by the company, the Free Birth Society.
• 1:52
  Today's guest is Maren Green of Indie Birth, and I am so excited to finally get a chance to ask her about some things that I've been wondering about for a little bit now.
• 2:03
  Also, don't forget to check out our new closing song, Walk of the Wild Ones, by Kate Sutherland.
• 2:09
  Kate's community songs and deep nature connection work can be found online at katesutherland.ca.
• 2:18
  Hi, Marin.
• 2:19
  Thank you so much for being here.
• 2:22
  You've been a practicing midwife for over 15 years.
• 2:25
  You've rebirthed your own babies, and you're the co-creator of IndieBirth Midwifery School.
• 2:30
  And you've never shied away from speaking your truth, which is something I personally really admire about you.
• 2:36
  For those who don't know you though, would you start by sharing a little bit about yourself, what first called you into this work, and a little bit about how your own journey and birth work has evolved over the years?
• 2:46
  Yeah, sure.
• 2:47
  Well, thanks for having me here.
• 2:50
  I appreciate it.
• 2:53
  Wow, I know it's such a big question, all of those things.
• 2:58
  I think it won't be short, but the shorter answer is definitely that my 10 children made my path in birth.
• 3:08
  So my very first baby, my daughter, who's almost 24 now, she was born in a hospital on purpose.
• 3:17
  That's what we planned.
• 3:18
  We didn't know there were other options.
• 3:22
  And then her second, my second, her sibling, her brother, was the first home birth, our second baby.
• 3:29
  And from there, I was pretty much obsessed with birth and with home birth in particular.
• 3:37
  And so I started a home birth midwifery apprenticeship when that baby, that second baby, was about four months old.
• 3:45
  And, you know, just through the birth of the next eight, I went through studenthood, I went through licensing, I went through giving back my license.
• 3:55
  I went through working just as a sovereign midwife, uh, mostly in Arizona, then in Kentucky.
• 4:03
  And my last baby was uh quite a story.
• 4:07
  And that again, you know, is a longer version out on the internet as well.
• 4:12
  But he, of course, was meant in my mind, in my heart, to be born at home.
• 4:18
  And he chose to be born on a hospital bed.
• 4:22
  And funny enough, it looked just like all my other births, you know, all my home births.
• 4:27
  It was just in a different setting.
• 4:29
  And so I kind of had this full circle experience as a woman and as a midwife, you know, to have my first and my last babies both be born in November.
• 4:40
  They're both Scorpios, and just kind of like completed this cycle of childbearing for me.
• 4:46
  And I don't know that it's completed the birth attending cycle, but for right now, for the last two years, I've been on kind of a self-imposed um vacation uh life in Hawaii, learning to surf.
• 5:01
  And that has become my new obsession.
• 5:04
  So uh I'm letting the ocean apprentice me now instead of birth.
• 5:09
  But, you know, there's actually so many similarities, right?
• 5:12
  Between the force of nature in the ocean and the force that is birth.
• 5:18
  So I feel like I'm in the same world, but in a different setting.
• 5:23
  And I'm really appreciating the break from being on call.
• 5:27
  So that's me in a nutshell right now.
• 5:30
  Amazing.
• 5:31
  Yes, I've definitely feel like I've heard birth compared to the ocean so much, especially recently, even in this talk like around rebirth.
• 5:41
  Sometimes you can trust, you know, you can go out and have a great day in the ocean.
• 5:44
  Sometimes, you know, you should, you know, the ocean's screaming, hey, don't trust me today.
• 5:48
  Yeah, yeah.
• 5:50
  I I shared on my podcast recently that um I got my eyebrow bashed in by my own surfboard, and that was so humbling.
• 5:58
  I mean, surfing is a dangerous sport, but you know, even that is interesting to pick apart.
• 6:03
  Like, we don't necessarily call birth dangerous, but actually it's like a very similar feeling of risk, and the reward is also so great.
• 6:13
  Like, so to have a baby, you know, is the best feeling in the world, especially when it's how you want it and it is at home and it feels good.
• 6:21
  And it's the same with surfing, like it's so addictive and it's like oxytocin release, probably, but yet it's just the great unknown.
• 6:31
  Like every day I go out there and I say a prayer and I don't know what the ocean has in store for me.
• 6:36
  So I think it's actually humbled me even more uh in the birth, you know, in the in the topic of birth.
• 6:44
  Like any any last little thing I thought was controllable in that setting, I think uh the ocean has been teaching me is not true.
• 6:53
  And that doesn't mean it's bad or it, you know, even dangerous.
• 6:57
  I don't know that I would say birth is dangerous, but it does come with risk and it's a force of nature.
• 7:04
  Now, shifting into the conversation about all of the things that have been going on in these last few years with the Free Birth Society, bringing it back to the beginning, if you're willing to talk about this.
• 7:17
  I know Emily had actually applied to your indie birth school of midwifery right around the time that she was launching FBS in 2017 and preparing for her own birth.
• 7:27
  What was your impression of her application at the time?
• 7:30
  And did anything stand out?
• 7:33
  I don't really remember like what words were said.
• 7:40
  Um, what I do remember is having a phone conversation at one point with her that was really positive, actually.
• 7:47
  You know, she was kind of starting out and had been a listener of my podcast and, you know, just had some questions about how to start all that.
• 7:57
  And like I said, I I have really okay memories of that.
• 8:02
  I encouraged her and wished her well.
• 8:03
  I mean, I think there are always more voices needed.
• 8:08
  Um, you know, I didn't know what would happen or where that would go, but I think the intention at the time to me felt really honest and pure, you know, to the degree that I could assess that and I was happy to help.
• 8:22
  So um, yeah, that's kind of what I remember from way back when, many years ago.
• 8:30
  Yeah, so you've since then talked about seeing free birth and midwifery as two things that don't have to be at war with each other.
• 8:40
  Can you paint a little bit of the picture of where your head and heart were at when you recorded the podcast episode titled The Honest Truth About Free Birth, which was originally released in December of 2019?
• 8:52
  Yeah, definitely.
• 8:54
  Well, again, you know, we can't separate our own path, our own experience, I don't think, from what we put out in the world.
• 9:02
  Some people can maybe, but I've never been able to.
• 9:05
  So, you know, I have a long story, and actually I have a book.
• 9:09
  We have a book on Amazon called Indie Birth, a story of radical birth love.
• 9:13
  So if people are curious about the longer version of like becoming a licensed midwife and then kind of having this two-year battle with the state of Arizona, I gave my license back.
• 9:24
  This was my initiation into what I consider, you know, more authentic midwifery.
• 9:32
  So having a license can be a choice.
• 9:35
  It definitely was one I made for a couple of reasons for a short amount of time.
• 9:40
  And the universe showed me that for me, that wasn't the path to keep walking.
• 9:44
  It wasn't authentic for me.
• 9:46
  I wasn't able to serve women in a way that felt like true to my soul.
• 9:52
  So I lived that.
• 9:54
  I lived this, okay, I have a license, and here is how I would need to practice as a midwife.
• 10:02
  And then I gave it back and I was like, oh my God, like I'm free to do whatever I want.
• 10:09
  And I'm free to be in a relationship with these women.
• 10:12
  And it was terrifying.
• 10:15
  I mean, I worked in Arizona for 10 more years without a license in a state where a license is mandatory.
• 10:21
  So they very much knew I was there and they never bothered me.
• 10:25
  And I just did what I wanted in this way of creating with women as a midwife what they wanted.
• 10:34
  Like it wasn't about me anymore as a midwife, other than yes, like we need to have boundaries, and you know, I'm not there to just witness whatever.
• 10:44
  Like, I do have things that I need to feel comfortable.
• 10:48
  But in other words, it became more about the woman and her creating this pregnancy and birth, hearing her visions, supporting her in that, supporting her emotionally, uh, spiritually, things that we don't typically think of mainstream midwifery doing.
• 11:05
  And I think it's fairly true that mainstream midwifery generally doesn't, right?
• 11:11
  Because they have the checklist, they have the medical, like we must take up someone's blood pressure every time, we must send someone for ultrasound, we must send someone for this.
• 11:20
  And I didn't have any of that anymore.
• 11:22
  I didn't need to do anything unless someone wanted it.
• 11:26
  So, you know, when we got into this discussion later and and recording that podcast, in other words, I had lived the experience of being a midwife that I felt truly served women.
• 11:41
  And that is how I continued to practice up until I took this break two years ago.
• 11:46
  And, you know, it was never dull.
• 11:47
  I never, you I'm not saying I knew it all.
• 11:50
  I'm not saying I did it perfectly every time, but I learned to hold space in a way for women that felt really true for me.
• 11:57
  And I think for most of the women I served was a really awesome choice for them because they didn't have to be alone.
• 12:04
  And yet they had autonomy.
• 12:06
  And so that became that really warped discussion, or not even discussion, but like dogmatic teaching in this cult was that the only way to have autonomy was to be alone.
• 12:20
  And again, it was personal.
• 12:22
  I had personally lived it, and I had lived it as a woman.
• 12:25
  I had all autonomous births except for the first, I would say.
• 12:30
  And I had a nurse midwife at one point that was a friend.
• 12:34
  I had CPMs at another birth, they were friends.
• 12:38
  I had Margot who initially was just a friend and became an unlicensed midwife.
• 12:44
  So I just couldn't really stand behind this idea.
• 12:50
  And I think it's it not only felt personal, but it felt really damaging to the collective when I believe that we all have the power within ourselves and that autonomy is something we find within ourselves first.
• 13:09
  So again, it was just this like bizarre representation of something that didn't feel right to me, where the only way to get safety, uh essentially, is to look outside of yourself, even in this way of like, okay, but no one's going to be here then.
• 13:24
  It's like a heavy-handed environmental control because, and this is really important, because there has been so much damage in the birth industry to women.
• 13:36
  I fully see that, admit that.
• 13:39
  Um, not that I'm responsible for it, but I think we all know that, you know, over the years, hospital birth in particular has been abusive to women.
• 13:48
  Um, home birth, home birth midwifery has done its share.
• 13:52
  So there's a reason that women started to look to an extreme.
• 13:57
  And I don't judge that because when we are traumatized, you know, individually or as a group, that's the natural instinct is to bond to something that feels like it's a solution.
• 14:10
  And I think the cult vibe, you know, that's just um a problem solver for some.
• 14:18
  And, you know, for some people, it probably felt really good and right and was the answer to what they were looking for.
• 14:25
  And I think we're just hearing more now that for more women, it wasn't exactly that, and they didn't quite realize what they were getting into.
• 14:36
  Yeah, definitely.
• 14:37
  It's that sort of just developing your personal autonomy to be able to have that in any situation almost, and and yeah, not selling that out to these other beliefs.
• 14:49
  Right.
• 14:50
  And you know, I think we can see more clearly now, hindsight, right?
• 14:56
  That any of us, and particularly like in the birth arena, the pendulum swings, and it seems like as women, we are challenged with not following the leader, right?
• 15:12
  So that went on for so long in hospital birth, like and it still does.
• 15:16
  Lots of women go that direction, they're not really weighing options or you know, it's just what we do.
• 15:23
  We follow who we think knows more than us.
• 15:27
  And this was just another example of that.
• 15:29
  So I think it's so ironic, in a way, right?
• 15:33
  To have a movement that on the surface is supposedly built around women's empowerment, but really it was just another loud voice, it was just another flag to follow for a lot of women that really needed someone to save them, but it was just a different kind of saving.
• 15:53
  You know, we can we can look at the hospital and the ways that they do that, and it's very obvious, but I think it was less obvious.
• 16:02
  Yeah.
• 16:04
  So when you released that episode, The Honest Truth About Free Birth, Emily and Free Birth Society, they put together the roundtable response literally one week later and directly named you an indie birth.
• 16:16
  What was your response when you heard that episode?
• 16:20
  I didn't listen to it.
• 16:22
  I don't know.
• 16:22
  Oh, you didn't listen to it?
• 16:23
  Okay.
• 16:24
  Yeah, I mean, I've never been I've never been interested in hearing from them.
• 16:32
  Right?
• 16:33
  Like I see what's out there like anybody else.
• 16:35
  And actually these days, I'm not on social media, so I don't see I don't really see anything anymore.
• 16:41
  But it's like when something has come my way and it felt like I really had something to share, um, even recently, I feel compelled to do that.
• 16:53
  And I've also really had to restrain myself at the other times to not go into sort of this like negative vibration.
• 17:06
  So I didn't listen to that.
• 17:07
  I've actually never listened to their podcasts, I've never listened to anything they've ever put out, uh, whether it was about me or someone else.
• 17:16
  Um, it just didn't feel important because what I have to say remains true for me no matter what.
• 17:23
  And I don't consider it an argument.
• 17:25
  Like people can have differing opinions and they can all be true.
• 17:30
  Uh, and I'm not saying mine is even the most true.
• 17:33
  It's just true for me.
• 17:35
  And in leading, you know, kind of my own birth movement over the years, which has a lot more longevity, and uh a midwifery school that has a lot more history.
• 17:46
  So our midwifery school has been in existence for it'll be nine years this coming summer.
• 17:53
  Uh, so that was another way, and probably another reason that I put out that podcast now that I'm thinking about it, uh, because like I shared, it was personal.
• 18:02
  And also, we train women to serve as, you know, midwives in this way that I described.
• 18:11
  So we're not calling them uh whatever they call them, birthkeepers.
• 18:16
  You know, the word midwife is an ancient, beautiful word.
• 18:20
  And I think we get to decide how we use it.
• 18:22
  And since Marg and I have both walked that path and have experience and knowledge, you know, it it was a very natural thing for us to create.
• 18:31
  It wasn't forced.
• 18:33
  We weren't, we weren't making, you know, putting together a house, uh house building course when we've never built houses.
• 18:39
  It was, it's just who we are.
• 18:41
  And so that was another reason is like, hey, we're like actually watching women go through this two-year program and you're confusing everybody, you know, by this fact that like no one exists that can attend your birth that isn't, you know, on on either side of the coin.
• 18:58
  So nuance, I think, is not a strong point of any cult.
• 19:03
  Um, they don't rely on nuance.
• 19:05
  If nuance starts to become a part of the conversation, it's it's deflected or you know, gaslighting or whatever the heck happens because there's just no room for that.
• 19:14
  Things are very clearly black and white.
• 19:17
  And I just I don't operate that way.
• 19:19
  That's not my personality.
• 19:20
  I mean, if you answer ask me a question that might even be a clear yes or no, you'll get something in the middle most days, and not because I'm wishy-washy, just because I can see, I can see a little bit of a lot of things when I look at the big picture.
• 19:36
  So, you know, it wasn't like a forced response, it was more just true to who I am of like, hey there, ladies.
• 19:44
  Sure, I've had free births too.
• 19:47
  Uh, and they were called unassisted births back in the day before this became a thing.
• 19:52
  Like women have always done that.
• 19:54
  Great, do it, invite your friends, if that's where your heart is.
• 19:58
  Um, but don't feel forced into a corner, don't feel like you have to label your birth to fit into a club.
• 20:05
  And God, if something's wrong, follow yourself.
• 20:11
  And you know, that of course is a huge part of this discussion, too.
• 20:16
  Because uh, from the evidence that is there for us all to see, it seems like there was a lot of that, a lot of really sad, desperate, uh dangerous, you know, unhealthy situations, possibly, right?
• 20:30
  Where mom or babies weren't well and you know, they were encouraged to just keep trucking.
• 20:37
  So there is an issue with that, even if at the end of the day everybody does need to make their own choices.
• 20:44
  I don't actually think anyone is to blame for anyone else's outcome.
• 20:48
  That's not actually possible, but there is responsibility in the message we put out.
• 20:55
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:57
  The there is, I do feel like that too, just with the things that I put out, there is a certain amount of responsibility of the things that you put out.
• 21:05
  And my perception of the Free Birth Society thing is that like nuance doesn't sell and dogma, it was like dogma for dollars, but yeah, and you know, I have tried numerous times to kind of put myself, you know, into what women might be experiencing, you know, because I've had a different experience.
• 21:30
  I've birthed my babies with a lot of knowledge as a midwife, and you know, having seen hundreds of births, that's not everyone's experience, I realize.
• 21:40
  So, you know, imagining myself as like a first time mom, and and I when I was, I mean, I didn't know anything.
• 21:47
  So it's actually pretty easy to do.
• 21:49
  I think that it makes sense.
• 21:52
  It makes sense because what does uh what is not every woman, but what do a lot of women wish for as They kind of get into this experience of pregnancy and birth, they want what we all want.
• 22:05
  You know, they want a nice experience.
• 22:07
  They want uh to feel like they made the right, like the right choice for them and they weren't forced into choices.
• 22:16
  So, like it all makes perfect sense.
• 22:19
  And I think it was just a matter of timing as well, kind of like universal timing, being like, okay, this is where we're at as a as a society that women need to know that birth can work when no one's there.
• 22:35
  And I've said that for years.
• 22:36
  I that's not a quote of mine.
• 22:38
  I think Karen Strange said that 15, 20 years ago.
• 22:42
  Karen Strange, who teaches neonatal resuscitation, has said birth is set up to work when no one is there.
• 22:49
  And that's given me so much confidence as a mother, as a midwife.
• 22:53
  I fully believe it.
• 22:54
  So again, it's not that like any of those things are wrong or bad or not true.
• 23:00
  Um, it's just sort of taking advantage, in my opinion, of like an element of, but you can have that if.
• 23:09
  And that's the part that doesn't jive because you know, I don't think that's true.
• 23:16
  And again, back to the ocean.
• 23:18
  Um, I can want all I want today when I go out, and I can, you know, be grounded and I can have done my work around getting hit in the face with a surfboard and all of it, but it's out of my control.
• 23:33
  But that does not sell.
• 23:35
  We cannot, you know, it's it's like, and we've tried that for years, not to sell that, but that's been our perspective in our own courses.
• 23:42
  Just like, hey, like birth does work, and here's how it works, and here's how the body works, and also it's mysterious.
• 23:51
  So uh I wish I could explain to you why it works the way it works, and different women have different experiences, and you know, why some babies don't make it, and I don't have the answer.
• 24:05
  Yes, it's a great mystery.
• 24:07
  Yeah, and I think that like we like that whole ideal and and and those teachings started to become so ego-focused because it's our ego that thinks we can control everything in life.
• 24:22
  So again, I think there's an attractiveness to believing that that could possibly be true, but it's not.
• 24:30
  Yeah.
• 24:31
  So Freeber Society launched the Radical Birthkeeper School in 2020, and then four years later, the Match of Birth Midwifery Institute in 2024, which was priced almost identically to yours at the time, even though their hands-on experience was very different.
• 24:48
  What was going through your mind as you saw the RBK program and then later the match of birth thing being marketed?
• 24:55
  And have you and Margot ever laughed about how closely the match of birth pricing mirrored yours?
• 25:02
  We've laughed about all of it, to be honest, because there's been a lot of uh what appears to be, you know, a lifting of words, even like things I've said over the years make have made their way onto their website.
• 25:16
  Like it's almost been comical just to see the lack of creativity over the years.
• 25:26
  Um, you know, and maybe I'm wrong.
• 25:28
  Maybe they got all that stuff from somewhere else, but there are no rules about that per se on the internet.
• 25:35
  So it's something that as someone that creates stuff, you know, as a small business owner, whatever you want to call it, you just kind of have to look the other way to a certain point.
• 25:49
  Umitation is the highest form of flattery, I suppose.
• 25:55
  And just being who I am and what I believe, it's not that it hasn't like bothered me here, here or there, of course, I'm human.
• 26:05
  But truly, I always have come back to this belief that it's all what it should be, even if I don't understand it, and even if I don't like it, and even if I don't support it, you know, I I don't know how else to say it.
• 26:26
  Like people are ready for what they're ready for.
• 26:32
  So when I recorded that podcast, what feels like a million years ago, it was just before anyone saw that.
• 26:42
  You know, it was just kind of like I saw it early and it was received, you know, as I said on my podcast, perfectly well by some people that were like, oh my gosh, yes.
• 26:57
  And then yeah, people that were like, oh, she's just like jealous, or she's, you know, this is the sister wound.
• 27:04
  That's the that's the big response, right?
• 27:06
  When women confront other women.
• 27:09
  So anyway, yeah, it's been interesting to watch and it's been like funny and aggravating at times, but I never really considered it to be sort of competition because to me, there is no competition.
• 27:23
  Like anybody can make a web page, and and unfortunately nowadays anyone can make a course.
• 27:30
  Yes, as things were starting to unravel with MMI, Yolanda said, anyone who's attended two dog births can start in midwifery school.
• 27:39
  Yeah, and so it's really just, you know, sort of that idea that we get what we put out, call it karma, call it whatever you want.
• 27:49
  That I had, you know, thought about it a lot and sat with it a lot and debated if there were responses to be made.
• 27:57
  And it all felt fairly egotistical, as if I thought, you know, I can't control what people are doing.
• 28:05
  Um, and you know, that's true in life, and that's really true in the world of birth.
• 28:11
  Like, people do crazy things.
• 28:13
  Like, I've seen crazy stuff, I've seen midwives do crazy stuff.
• 28:17
  Like, it's just you can't control what people do, and you just have to kind of watch it and you have to trust that there is divine justice.
• 28:27
  And divine justice, I don't mean that like I'm right and I win.
• 28:30
  It's just divine justice means the universe will balance what needs to be balanced.
• 28:35
  That that is not something I have to worry about.
• 28:38
  My only job is to keep my message clear and go forward, and the women that resonate with that will hear it.
• 28:46
  And and the women that were resonating with that message and still do, then that's real for them.
• 28:52
  And, you know, like it will take care of itself.
• 28:55
  So that has been interesting to see.
• 28:58
  I mean, I didn't know if that would happen, when that would happen, but now kind of seeing it happen, yeah, it feels validating in that sense of like, okay, um, you know, are people good or bad?
• 29:12
  Like it's such a question of being human.
• 29:13
  And I'm someone that like, I actually believe that people want the best.
• 29:19
  You know, I don't believe everyone's out to get us or anything like that.
• 29:23
  So it's just time.
• 29:25
  It was just time for women to kind of wake up to that and maybe get a little wiser and maybe pursue some other directions.
• 29:34
  But yeah, I don't think we can really control someone else's message beyond what I put out, which really was only the one podcast in that many, many years.
• 29:42
  And we had so much opportunity.
• 29:44
  Like I could tell you many, many stories of opportunity.
• 29:48
  We had to, you know, do something or to post something or to say something, but it all just felt really like below where I wanted to be energetically.
• 30:00
  You know, I don't want to be in a pit fighting with people or lowering myself to this standard because to me, the standard was a lack of integrity.
• 30:09
  So for me to kind of get in the mud pit just felt like, why would I do that?
• 30:14
  Like, I have integrity.
• 30:16
  I don't need to lie about my experience.
• 30:19
  Um, you know, over the years, I've had all kinds of stuff on the internet that were beyond what anybody else would put out there, from my own births to births of clients who agreed to, you know, watch them resuscitate their babies and like people going crazy and hate comments about that, but like stuff that was really cool because it really taught women what was possible and it really kind of pushed the boundary of like a baby doesn't need to fall out with no one there for it to be really amazing and powerful.
• 30:57
  And you know, in the case of like a baby needing a breath, what does that look like?
• 31:02
  Um, we have some videos on YouTube of a client from a couple of years ago who yeah, gave her baby breaths and it kind of went viral.
• 31:11
  And I ended up doing like a critique, another video where I talk through like, well, this is what I was looking for and this is what I was thinking.
• 31:17
  Like, I've always been a teacher in a sense.
• 31:21
  Like, I'm so happy to share what I have learned and what I know in a way that's helpful for people.
• 31:27
  So that's where I've just chosen to put my focus because I feel like that speaks for itself, you know, and and the alternative on this in this other arena was like, oh well, that's just a variation of normal birth always works.
• 31:41
  Like, I don't know because I'm not in, I've never been in their any of their classes, but I'm guessing there wasn't a whole lot of like personal wisdom because I don't think it was there, but I figured, well, that'll just take care of itself.
• 31:54
  Like, women will finally realize, like, oh my gosh, we're learning from people that like don't actually know anything.
• 32:00
  And I think that's mostly happened, but um, you know, not entirely.
• 32:05
  Yeah, it's definitely been a bit of a deep programming, and I'm so glad it's finally being more publicly talked about.
• 32:12
  In late 2023, you shared a post talking about your son Rumi's birth, calling it the free birth in the hospital.
• 32:21
  And when you posted that for the Free Birth Society community, it came at you pretty hard, basically saying there's no such thing as a free birth in the hospital, that you're misusing the term, all of these things that to me seemed very harsh.
• 32:36
  Um, what was your reaction when you saw all of those responses?
• 32:41
  Well, I definitely saw some, but I was also like in my postpartum and doing my best to, you know, be in my bubble.
• 32:51
  So I purposely didn't expose myself to probably even 50%.
• 32:57
  Like Margot really at that time, you know, was a very good screener and took on the load of like social interaction.
• 33:08
  Um, so I don't even know like all the terrible or hateful things that were said.
• 33:14
  But, you know, on the other side, I know his birth was so influential and inspirational to so many people.
• 33:21
  Like, I still get emails and he'll be six in November.
• 33:26
  I still get emails of people that were like, oh my God, like thank you.
• 33:30
  Cause like I wound up in the hospital and I knew that it could look different.
• 33:34
  And I had an amazing birth.
• 33:36
  And if I hadn't seen you do it, I wouldn't have known that I could even have that.
• 33:43
  So that was really nice and continues to be.
• 33:47
  And as for like the superficiality of them thinking they owned the term free birth, that was my only response is to be like, wow, there's some deep insecurity there to think you own a thing, a term, and then to demand that birthing women label accordingly, according to your dictionary.
• 34:09
  Like, I'm not a part of your dictionary, and I don't care.
• 34:13
  And guess what?
• 34:15
  It was my experience, and internally, in myself, in my body, in my world, that's what it was.
• 34:24
  And you know, Marg was there.
• 34:26
  We have some photos.
• 34:28
  I wrote the story, there were several podcasts done about it.
• 34:31
  It was truly amazing.
• 34:35
  Like it taught me so much, and you know, no one has to believe it.
• 34:42
  I don't need them to believe it.
• 34:44
  But no one even touched me, no one put a finger on me, no one touched him.
• 34:51
  I like I was in and out of there in two hours.
• 34:54
  Like, I don't think I even got put into the computer.
• 34:58
  It was glorious, and there and the amount of respect that was there for whatever reason was amazing.
• 35:07
  Like, I just remember the doctor just standing there watching.
• 35:11
  He leaves the room, he peeks back in, he's like, Hey, I'm gonna go home soon.
• 35:16
  Do you need anything?
• 35:18
  And I was like, No, I'm good, like, thank you.
• 35:21
  And to this day, I need to find out who that man was.
• 35:24
  I still haven't like written him a thank you or like I don't know, maybe he was just an angel that sort of floated in because he wasn't staff at that hospital.
• 35:34
  He was like a visiting OB or something.
• 35:38
  Anyway, there was so much meaning for me.
• 35:41
  Also, I had transported to that hospital as a midwife.
• 35:44
  I had been reported by that hospital several times as a new midwife.
• 35:48
  It was my story, you know, and so anybody's free to comment, especially when you put things on the internet, but it just didn't mean anything to me.
• 35:59
  It wasn't theirs to comment on.
• 36:01
  And like the irony was that whole wheel of anger and indignation or whatever was going on there was theirs to deal with, not mine.
• 36:11
  Like, I had a really amazing birth, and I don't know why he chose that, except to just kind of expand my capacity for what's possible because I wouldn't have said that was either.
• 36:24
  I would have been like, yeah, maybe like uh you're fighting them off the whole time, you know, you gotta say this or that.
• 36:33
  I don't know that I said three words to any of them.
• 36:38
  So it was magic.
• 36:40
  And I guess if you believe in magic, then that's a a good thing for you, but yeah, it was kind of funny to me.
• 36:48
  It was kind of funny, and and again, it it was like I was just there living my life, and I think it really made clear what was going on, like what that whole thing was starting to become about.
• 37:06
  It wasn't freedom and it wasn't it wasn't authenticity and it wasn't integrity and it wasn't like power.
• 37:14
  It it became, you know, it became so obviously about other stuff.
• 37:19
  And I just I enjoyed watching people see that really.
• 37:23
  The ones that were ready to see it, it was just fun to watch that.
• 37:28
  Yeah, I feel like that moment definitely highlighted the black and white thinking in the free birth society world.
• 37:34
  Like it's not 100% unassisted at home, it's not a real free birth or whatever.
• 37:40
  Um, but yeah, that when I saw that video, it was transformational for me to see what was possible just as a doula.
• 37:50
  Yeah, and then no one really gets to say what someone's experience is that's extremely arrogant.
• 37:58
  And I knew that, but it was a good reminder and like a visceral teaching in my own body, you know, because as a midwife, I had attended births.
• 38:09
  I can think of one in particular that was looked really difficult.
• 38:14
  Like this woman looked like she was in a lot of pain.
• 38:16
  Like there were a lot of things where I was like, wow, this is this seems like a hard birth.
• 38:21
  And I'll never forget her saying in her postpartum that it was like painless and blissful.
• 38:28
  And I just sat there and I was like, and you know, the other way too.
• 38:32
  You watch someone just a baby, just seems like it falls out, and that and for whatever reason, that woman is really traumatized.
• 38:39
  I don't know.
• 38:40
  Maybe it was too fast, maybe her partner missed it, right?
• 38:42
  Like whatever.
• 38:44
  So I think it's disrespectful, but more than that, it's really problematic that women in general, you know, would still sort of outsource this all to someone else.
• 38:59
  That's really what I want going forward.
• 39:01
  I don't know for me, will I attend births?
• 39:03
  Will I not?
• 39:04
  Who cares?
• 39:05
  What I really want for women is to cultivate this inside of themselves, right?
• 39:12
  And then whatever shows up that they resonate with, they'll do.
• 39:15
  And I don't care what it is, maybe it is free birth, maybe it's this course that they're doing.
• 39:19
  I have no idea.
• 39:21
  But I think it's not really, you know, that it's out there.
• 39:25
  I just think that it's, you know, largely been women that maybe thought it was an easy answer.
• 39:32
  So I think we need to get back to doing our own work and just not contracting any of it out or thinking anything looks romantic to the point of like unbelievability, perhaps, you know, not that birth can't be beautiful, but like it just is gonna be what it is.
• 39:51
  So if you are going after a certain outcome, I suggest you be with what's inside your body, you know, and how that outcome might feel, for example.
• 40:04
  But how it looks, it doesn't really matter to me anymore.
• 40:10
  It doesn't really matter because it's all about our internal journey and what sets us up for motherhood, you know.
• 40:18
  So even having 10 babies, by that 10th baby, you think, oh, well, she must know something.
• 40:24
  And sure, my kids have definitely taught me a ton.
• 40:27
  But that last baby, what a teacher.
• 40:31
  Yeah, I've definitely seen that too.
• 40:33
  Everyone experiences it so differently, and each birth can be really very different.
• 40:40
  So, another thing I wanted to talk about was one of the biggest differences that I've noticed between the Free Birth Society programs and programs like yours or WAPIO's is the Free Birth Society's message around just go out and do it.
• 40:54
  Once you finish the coursework, they're just like, you're not gonna get experience until you just go out and do it.
• 41:00
  No apprenticeship needed.
• 41:03
  Now, the answer may seem obvious, but just to break it down, would you please talk about why you and Marg have always been so firm about expressing that students need a real in-person apprenticeship with a practicing midwife before they start calling themselves a midwife or a traditional midwife or even a birthkeeper or sovereign midwife or any of those terms that people use these days?
• 41:27
  Why is an in-person apprenticeship important?
• 41:31
  Yeah, it's beyond important.
• 41:36
  And as many years as I've been doing this, I'm still always like shocked when I mean, I've had my own students.
• 41:45
  I could name you at least three students I've had that decided they knew enough at eight births as a student to go out and do this.
• 41:54
  And I think on one side, there's something cool about having seen normal and have it play out normal.
• 42:04
  And I'm not shooting my own horn here, but they got to work with someone that's been doing this 15 years.
• 42:09
  So I hope I make it look easy.
• 42:11
  I hope any of us that have been doing anything for 15 years, you know, it's a part of us, in other words.
• 42:18
  And so I think, you know, to the credit of birth working and the ease of which we can be with other women, that was the conclusion that some women came to, which is like, oh, this isn't that hard.
• 42:31
  I just have to sit around and talk with them and get to know them, and everything will work out.
• 42:35
  And again, that's superficial.
• 42:38
  That wasn't actually what was going on.
• 42:40
  There was a lot of nuance going on.
• 42:42
  And you know, midwife students don't know everything, they don't know a lot, and they're not part of like even the conversations that are happening between a midwife and her client, like every day.
• 42:55
  Like I could get 10 texts per client per day, right?
• 42:58
  So there's a lot going on.
• 43:00
  So, in other words, I think some of these teachings and some of these programs um weren't created by midwives that were actually doing it, actually working, and it just became this like superficial thing.
• 43:14
  Like the idea that we're made to have babies was sort of taken to this extreme.
• 43:20
  And, you know, obviously I don't agree because yes, we were, and then also if you're gonna be there and someone's gonna pay you to be there, or even not pay you, even inviting you in this role.
• 43:33
  So, like it's very clear like you're not just the sister, you're not the babysitter.
• 43:38
  Um, you're there in this role where you're supposed to have wisdom and experience.
• 43:43
  There's only one way that comes through.
• 43:45
  And it and it there is no hack um funny in the ocean.
• 43:51
  I'm experiencing this right now because there's so much I want to be able to do.
• 43:57
  And I can't go faster than I.
• 44:00
  Am allowed to go.
• 44:02
  So I can't read a book about it.
• 44:05
  I can't listen to someone else talk about it.
• 44:09
  I mean, that helps.
• 44:10
  It's really nice having other people's wisdom.
• 44:13
  But the lived experience of what does that wave look like?
• 44:18
  What will it do?
• 44:19
  Isn't in me yet.
• 44:22
  It isn't in me yet.
• 44:23
  So when you translate that to birth, that's concerning because you've seen normal.
• 44:31
  So you know, I always joke and say, like a trained monkey could like sit in a birth where everything's perfect.
• 44:38
  Sure.
• 44:39
  Nothing's needed.
• 44:40
  Good for you.
• 44:41
  Yeah, a seven-year-old can catch a baby.
• 44:44
  Right.
• 44:45
  I mean, someone at Starbucks can walk into the bathroom and catch a baby.
• 44:49
  So it's just something has gone horribly wrong.
• 44:54
  And you know, in our school, we try our best with an online program to teach the aspects that are important.
• 45:02
  So we can't teach wisdom and experience, but we can share what we know.
• 45:06
  We can share the teachings of other midwives.
• 45:09
  Um, we teach our students like somatic work so that they can fully learn to be embodied and in their body and dealing with the emotions that come up for them, right?
• 45:19
  So all of these are pieces, but the wisdom and experience is not able to be done with a shortcut.
• 45:27
  That's the short answer.
• 45:29
  And I don't know that women entirely understand that.
• 45:33
  You know, if they're hiring some someone for their birth, maybe they do, maybe they don't.
• 45:38
  And then I think, you know, there's the opinion that you must be focusing on all the things that could go wrong if you need someone there that can help you.
• 45:52
  So again, it's nuance, it's a fine line between um hiring someone to save you from your experience and hiring someone that might be helpful.
• 46:02
  And Margot and I have said over the years many times, most births, there isn't anything to really do.
• 46:10
  Although, again, the wisdom and experience that's there, you would be surprised how much there still is to say about what our brains might be thinking um or assessing, or you know, working six hours ahead because we've seen this pattern, right?
• 46:27
  So it's not, it's not just like what's happening in front of you, it's um interpretation.
• 46:33
  And again, you just don't get that until you live it.
• 46:37
  So one way or another, you gotta live it.
• 46:39
  And for some of these women that are just going out and calling themselves whatever, I mean, just God bless them and God bless the births they go to, and may women be really aware of what they're hiring, and you know, so be it.
• 46:53
  And I think the communities too will figure that out.
• 46:58
  And it's happened in, you know, like I said, the some of the communities that I worked in and now I don't live in, like I've seen it, like it takes a little while.
• 47:07
  Um, and sometimes there's really something terrible that happens, and that was the case in one of the communities I left.
• 47:13
  The student had like two or three deaths in a row and you know, quit.
• 47:19
  So that's the worst extreme, although I think there is value in in talking about that too.
• 47:27
  You know, it's not that we control birth, but not having wisdom and experience means is sometimes you don't see and you don't know.
• 47:35
  And that's the way life is.
• 47:37
  I don't know what I don't know either.
• 47:38
  It's just how it goes.
• 47:41
  Yeah.
• 47:41
  Well, I'm definitely on the you definitely should have an in-person apprenticeship before calling yourself a midwife camp these days.
• 47:49
  Cause yeah, it was definitely confusing for a while being in that program, like just go out and do it.
• 47:54
  And like, kind of like it, it's weird.
• 47:57
  Like when people started saying, Oh, well, maybe we should know more before we go out and do it, they're kind of just like, no, like you're just that's the only way you're gonna learn.
• 48:04
  So yeah, oh gosh.
• 48:07
  Well, like obviously that's not true, you know, because when you're in an experience like a surprise breach birth or a hemorrhage, if you haven't practiced those skills, and even as a midwife, like you know, we still drill those things, we still practice them on the way to a birth, you run through it in your head.
• 48:26
  So that's really naive.
• 48:28
  I don't even, I don't even understand.
• 48:30
  I don't actually even understand where that kind of arrogance comes from.
• 48:36
  But again, I think it makes it easy um to sell.
• 48:41
  And so maybe that's what it comes back to is like, oh, we're women, we know, we know, but we don't always.
• 48:50
  Now moving forward, you're offering a free summer group.
• 48:53
  You're calling it from the ashes, transforming the free birth ideology into change.
• 48:59
  Would you share a little bit more about what this space looks like, who's it for, and what kind of healing or forward movement you're hoping to facilitate?
• 49:07
  Well, we'll see.
• 49:09
  I'm going to start that this summer.
• 49:11
  And so I don't actually know.
• 49:13
  I'm really open to yes, kind of what I'm envisioning and also the needs and the way other women show up.
• 49:24
  So I'm not planning on sitting around talking about them.
• 49:28
  I don't want that kind of atmosphere.
• 49:30
  I'm not saying there aren't stories to be shared.
• 49:33
  And maybe some other ideas will come out of this, right?
• 49:36
  Like if there are women that really feel they need to share a story, maybe there will be somewhere for them to do that.
• 49:41
  I don't know that, you know, I'm gonna hold space for all of that.
• 49:45
  Um, but looking forward means that we probably do have to sit in some of the uncomfortable feelings that have arisen.
• 49:55
  And I don't know what those are for everybody, right?
• 49:58
  Um, maybe even just a sense of like uncertainty or, you know, what I've noticed, I think I feel or I feel like I feel is kind of this overall distrust now that seems to be present around birth work and around birth courses.
• 50:15
  And, you know, there's a lot of doubt, there's a lot of skepticism, not to mention trauma.
• 50:21
  So I think it is important to feel those things within us.
• 50:25
  Um, and as a group, that can be like really beneficial, really helpful.
• 50:31
  Uh, because at the end of the day, like there isn't anyone that can say anything that sort of makes anything better for anybody.
• 50:38
  We just have to kind of be with it in our own bodies.
• 50:40
  And since I'm trained in somatic work as well, uh I'm sure there will be a good deal of that.
• 50:46
  So that sounds really vague, but I think it will be a place to come to ultimately feel positive and uplifted and more grounded in the body.
• 50:56
  Because I think also what that has produced for many is a sense of disembodiment, you know, of just being like separate from the experience.
• 51:05
  And maybe it was a birth experience, or maybe it was, you know, like you being a student in that school.
• 51:11
  Um, so coming back to ourselves and what's true for us is always the best way forward.
• 51:16
  So people can sign up at uh maringreen.co slash free birth.
• 51:21
  And again, it's a free group.
• 51:23
  I'll let people know when we're gonna do the first gathering and we'll just kind of let it unfold.
• 51:28
  Um, because I think there are also so many questions.
• 51:32
  I have them too, about, you know, midwifery and and just so many things that now feel like a good time to maybe get a little bit more uh detailed about.
• 51:46
  Yeah, awesome.
• 51:48
  So is there anything else you want to share about other offerings that you have available um or things that you're working on?
• 51:55
  Uh well, I just wrote a book about surfing the first year.
• 51:58
  So that will be out and published soon.
• 52:00
  So if you're on any of my lists, you'll get to know about that.
• 52:04
  I'm pretty excited about that.
• 52:07
  Um, I do have a virtual circle for women that I've led for this will be the fourth year, and that's just like a really special offering.
• 52:16
  Uh, you don't have to be a birth worker, you don't even have to be a mom.
• 52:20
  So we're a group of about 15 women from all over the world, and we meet a couple times a month, and it's just like really nourishing.
• 52:28
  So if you're someone that's looking for, you know, what I call kind of true sisterhood, then that's something to check out.
• 52:34
  And that's maringreen.co forward slash circle.
• 52:37
  And you can see uh some other offerings on the website as well.
• 52:41
  Cool.
• 52:42
  I will link all of your information in the show notes for anyone that wants to check those things out.
• 52:47
  And as a final question, what's one thing that you wish more people understood about leaving this dogmatic movement without losing their sovereignty or their love for birth or free birth itself?
• 53:01
  Like I said, I think if it's possible to understand that this has all unfolded perfectly.
• 53:10
  And I know that's a little triggering perhaps, like for individuals where it feels like it very much hasn't unfolded perfectly.
• 53:18
  So it's kind of this macro view of like this is what we needed as women, and it's been uncomfortable, and for some it's been devastating, but there is growth to be had in all of this.
• 53:34
  And so what can we really do except rebuild?
• 53:39
  And for some, that's like rebuilding themselves and their lives, and for some, you know, I think it's rebuilding a community that maybe had sort of fallen to this, but that's where we are as like a world, you know, like things are crumbling.
• 53:55
  Uh, I don't know anybody that's not experiencing that.
• 53:58
  So I get it.
• 53:59
  It's hard to be in the crumble sometimes.
• 54:02
  So I remind myself that good things are always ahead and that it's, you know, not up to us to make that happen, but to be present in in all of this, to be present in it and yeah, to look forward to what's coming.
• 54:20
  Thank you again, Marin, truly so much for taking the time to chat with me today about all of this.
• 54:26
  I really appreciate you so much.
• 54:28
  Yeah, thanks, Angela.
• 54:30
  I liked being here with you.
• 54:37
  Follow the walk of the wild ones into the woods and the darkness.
• 54:42
  Rebirth the ways of the ancient ones whose tracks were washed away in blood.
• 54:47
  It falls to us now to open up and take beyond what we prefer.
• 54:53
  Take up the feet of the light and step.
• 54:58
  Follow up the one, the one.
• 55:06
  So it's not the one, the water, then falls to one step to go and up and take the other time.
• 55:48
  So it's not a wand, the water's beyond what we put on.
• 56:01
  Step by step through the home, I'll be on the line when you'll be line.
• 56:07
  In the darkness, love, love, light, the way we do for you, the soul that loves changing times.
• 56:12
  Step by step through the home, I'll be on life when you'll be line.
• 56:17
  In the darkness, let love light the way we do for you, the soul that love changing times.