Latest / Corie Sheppard Podcast / 🇨🇦🇹🇹 From Afghanistan to Trinidad: A Diplomat’s Extraordinary Journey | Michael Callan

Transcript

🇨🇦🇹🇹 From Afghanistan to Trinidad: A Diplomat’s Extraordinary Journey | Michael Callan · Corie Sheppard Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: You're all party like heck.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a lot of power in Juve and in mass uh and to harvest that and to get back to its its roots.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_03: But really to to to use that energy to to drive home messages that uh have a chance of of making a difference a little a little bit more.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I've always just had that thirst for uh for um for for life.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: You know, for it's uh ups and downs.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's you know it's uh sometimes a great experience, sometimes a pretty awful experience.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_03: My time in Afghanistan, for example, uh you know, really pretty tough, uh mostly difficult, uh physically difficult, intellectually challenging.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um but it mattered.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: And you could see that it mattered because the the issues we were we're grappling with were often life life and death issues.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, the the saltfish uh that that's part of uh that's part of just everyday life here.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, a lot of that originated from salted cod off the Canada's east coast that that we've been selling uh down uh down here for 200 years, you know, long before either of our countries were were independent and embarrassed.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: And that's more and more.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: You make Kalaloo?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: I make Kalaloo, yeah, yeah.
• 1:06
  Corie: We used to be uh it used to be my weekend uh thing and we do blender Kalaloo and stick Kalaloo there at the front room.
• 1:12
  Corie: I'm a blender myself.
• 1:16
  Corie: It's the way you do it.
• 1:17
  Corie: We're in the store, right?
• 1:18
  Corie: They have something called a Kalaloo pack.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if we need to black well it's in the fact, it's in the fact that I've looked down my notes in the hack.
• 1:46
  Corie: Welcome to the Corey Chapman Podcast.
• 1:47
  Corie: My name is Cory Chapman.
• 1:48
  Corie: Welcome back to everybody who's been listening.
• 1:50
  Corie: Thank you for all the new listeners who are tuning in.
• 1:53
  Corie: I think the show is getting a little serious now.
• 1:54
  Corie: We're getting a little serious, it's getting a little bit beyond my pay grade.
• 1:58
  Corie: Today we have with us the Canadian High Commissioner, Mr.
• 2:01
  Corie: Michael Callan.
• 2:01
  Corie: How are you going to?
• 2:02
  Corie: Good and good, Cory.
• 2:03
  Corie: Good.
• 2:03
  Corie: I'm just happy to be here.
• 2:04
  Corie: Yeah.
• 2:04
  Corie: Are you happy to be here?
• 2:05
  Corie: I am happy to be here.
• 2:06
  Corie: You have a country that hosts a new World Cup.
• 2:08
  Corie: If I was you, I wouldn't be here.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's a busy time back home, you're right.
• 2:13
  Corie: It is, it is, it is.
• 2:14
  Corie: What does that feel?
• 2:14
  Corie: How does that feel for you?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: Having been home, you know, going home for the games and that kind of thing.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: Not going home for the games, but I was back home not too long ago.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: I was in Toronto, I was by the stadium.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: And uh made a point to get as close as I could.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's probably as close as to a World Cup stadium as I'll get for a good long time.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: But uh but no, the city's on fire, huh?
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: Well, the mood is good over there.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:34
  Corie: Yeah, we went when Trinidad qualified, we went over to Germany at the time.
• 2:37
  Corie: Yeah.
• 2:38
  Corie: And I tell people it's hard to describe.
• 2:39
  Corie: I guess when you watch the games, you could see the vibe and the environment in the stadium.
• 2:43
  Corie: Sure.
• 2:44
  Corie: But outside is a buzz, right?
• 2:45
  Corie: That's the thing.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's the thing.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I gotta say, even when Canada hasn't qualified into the World Cup in the past, it's always been a big thing.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: Particularly in big in some of our big cities like Toronto.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's such a diverse city made up of so many different uh immigrant communities.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for example.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: So just walking down the street, you know, you you can tell who, you know, the the the nature of the game by which restaurant is uh is the loudest.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: Right, of course, of course, of course.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: So it's so it's always a real exciting time.
• 3:11
  Corie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 3:11
  Corie: I could imagine.
• 3:12
  Corie: I could imagine.
• 3:13
  Corie: As the in the in the mission here, you all get involved in stuff like that to sensitize people to Yeah, we do, we do.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: We try and uh, you know, um promote uh promote the fact that we're hosting as uh to the extent we can.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean we had a really neat event uh just last uh uh last Friday when on our first game, Canada's first game.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: We we screened it at Movie Town.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: And uh yeah, so we had over you know almost 250 people come out, and uh and a real special thing is we we invited some from school, some school groups, and some uh some football academies from a little bit of uh some tougher neighborhoods and such.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: So some kids uh you know, just chatting with them, they they'd never actually been to a cinema ever before.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so to be in a big big cinema to watch the game and you know do the popcorn and the and the and the and the soda just to have that experience.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you know, I was telling somebody, I think, I think some of the kids before, they weren't too sure what Canada was.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but by the end they're waving the flags and cheering us on, and uh it was a lot of it was a lot of fun.
• 4:10
  Corie: That's nice, that's nice.
• 4:11
  Corie: I think that first game was a draw, right?
• 4:13
  Corie: It was a draw.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_03: It was a draw, which did mark Canada's first points uh uh in any World Cup.
• 4:18
  Corie: Oh, is that so?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 4:20
  Corie: So it was a moment for I have Canada.
• 4:21
  Corie: I I was telling people maybe 10 years now.
• 4:24
  Corie: As soon as they announced that it was Canada, USA, Mexico, I was like, Trinidad is guaranteed to qualify because those are the hardest teams for us to beat, but yeah, not so much, not so much.
• 4:33
  Corie: There's time, there's time.
• 4:34
  Corie: But for you, you're a big football fan, you expect them to go far.
• 4:37
  Corie: What's your expectation?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: We're expecting them to play their hearts out and to uh make a you know to set a good example.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh we we are we have lost a couple of our our best players to injuries just recently, too.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, it's an uphill battle for us, but uh but just to be there and to host the world for for an event like this is is is really special.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: And and uh football or soccer, it's really growing in in Canada too.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like I read somewhere the other day that there's more Canadian kids enrolled in uh uh in in soccer leagues right now than ice hockey.
• 5:07
  Corie: I see.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: Ice hockey is your main sport.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_03: It has been, yeah, typically for for many years.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: And uh but we're seeing a shift and a change.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm gonna say a lot a lot of that's driven by again a lot of our uh diaspora communities and immigrant populations who bring the love of the game with them and uh and we've learned from it.
• 5:24
  Corie: No, I was tempted to ask you who you're gonna support for the World Cup because I've seen your list of countries you've lived in and visited.
• 5:31
  Corie: It's it's a little insane.
• 5:32
  Corie: You've been everywhere.
• 5:34
  Corie: Uh I don't know about everywhere, but uh I've been around a little bit.
• 5:36
  Corie: How many other countries do you lived in besides Canada and Russia?
• 5:39
  Corie: You know?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I haven't really added it up, but uh I saw Russia.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, I was spent uh yeah, I spent uh an exceptional time in uh in Russia with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace at the time.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: But it was uh in the early 2000s, right?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think it was yeah, the year 2000 itself, actually.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, still the country was adapting to uh to to capitalism really, and it was uh it was a it was a pretty wild time.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: Then we went in as you know as a student and stayed in this student uh dorm, this uh Abshizice, I guess they call it in in Russia, and and it's one of these uh the seven sisters, the seven towers that Stalin built after World War II, and this enormous skyscraper.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: And and in the student dorm, uh the dorm itself housed over 30,000 people.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and some of it was in okay repair, uh, much of it was uh was not.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, it had its section of uh well, it's it was a whole city within a student dorm, and you know, including uh you know legal things, including less legal things, and as uh as a as a young student, it was it was an experience for sure.
• 6:45
  Corie: Yeah, because I wonder sometimes how much of a cultural adjustment it is for somebody like you come in to turn that into big old.
• 6:51
  Corie: Isn't that a big change for you?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: It is it is a big change, but uh but I don't know, maybe at this this stage in the game, uh my life's been built on change, yeah.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: I've been moving to different countries, and uh it was just most re recently uh I uh I had a wonderful assignment as as ambassador out in Algeria.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: But Algeria is uh more conservative uh uh is Islamic country, uh and so the contrast from there to here is pretty dramatic.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:18
  Corie: But you seem to adjust and adapt well because even your travels, your travels all over the world are impressive.
• 7:24
  Corie: But your travels with internet aren't the biggest.
• 7:26
  Corie: I feel like if I have not seen my country, when I see your Instagram, I wonder what am I doing?
• 7:31
  Corie: Because you go to places that I haven't seen you do events.
• 7:33
  Corie: So I was looking at your Instagram recently, you were in the pan, renegades pan yards.
• 7:37
  Corie: Sure, sure.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: How how do you adapt?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: So so it feels like quickly.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but this is the this is the glory of the of the uh the position of the assignment is uh you know, and just think of what what a privilege it is to as part of your work, uh part of the job is to understand the countries and the cultures you're you're working in, and and no better way to do that uh than to get outside of the capital and to get into the into uh the history of the culture and and to taste the culture, to hear the culture, just to to experience uh everything that it has to offer.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: And Trindad and Tobago has a lot to offer.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: So it's been yeah, it's been a real joy of the job to to explore.
• 8:15
  Corie: Sure.
• 8:15
  Corie: When I look at other high commissioners, it's not I I don't see people as public as you.
• 8:20
  Corie: Hopefully, don't say anything that we can't get them here, right, David?
• 8:22
  Corie: But I don't see much people as up and about as as you've been.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh no, I mean, I mean everybody uh I know that it's not uh it's not an easy job in the best of times, so everybody's working hard and uh and learning the country in their own ways.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: And um but I I do take a particular uh just just pleasure in in exploring uh these things.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I've got a young family with me and and being able to to show them uh all the diversity that's here.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's been a special experience.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: So just be you know it helps uh to uh to love what you do, and I love what I do here, and so that that helps to you know push you uh further and further.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: And and I gotta say, I think we've um you know, I've spent a good amount of time in within our foreign ministry, and it's a big bureaucracy and such.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: And and I just couldn't be more convinced that uh that you know diplomacy is changing.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's changed.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so we're trying to, I'm trying to embrace that change and you know get outside of the the usual diplomatic uh bubble sometimes that we can we can get locked into.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it takes some effort uh to to break outside of that, but to uh but again to touch the touch the nerve, touch the heart of uh of the real Trindad and Tobago.
• 9:32
  Corie: It makes sense.
• 9:32
  Corie: Like when you said diplomatic bubble, I would imagine that if if I'm assigned as ambassador somewhere or any position abroad, it's pretty scheduled out, it's pretty planned out.
• 9:41
  Corie: You know, we have certain events to do and those types of things.
• 9:43
  Corie: So is it that you add things to the schedule, like like the pan yards and the visits and places?
• 9:48
  Corie: Sure.
• 9:48
  Corie: Uh yes, I think it's a sure because we must have fun out here.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: No, I guess because as you say, there's a lot that's uh that's kind of pre-scheduled, pre- where you're just expected to be there.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: And sure.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: And those are important events too.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: And uh you always learn a lot at those those events and and make the most of them to uh to meet different people that you need to meet.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but uh but I think if you if you've just stayed within that schedule, you'd be missing out on uh a lot that the country has to offer and a lot of the you know the reality that uh you know Trimbagonians live on a on a daily life, and sometimes you get glimpses of that from within the bubble, but uh, I'm not sure you get the full full picture.
• 10:28
  Corie: I'm not sure.
• 10:28
  Corie: I'm not sure.
• 10:29
  Corie: I wonder sometimes how how is that for the family?
• 10:32
  Corie: Because you might have this disposition.
• 10:33
  Corie: I can tell you home by me.
• 10:35
  Corie: I want to stay home all the time.
• 10:36
  Corie: She wants to go out, so we find we find a middle ground, which is no middle ground at all.
• 10:40
  Corie: Right.
• 10:41
  Corie: Isn't that your family they're comfortable and they move into different places?
• 10:44
  Corie: How difficult is that for them to adjust sometimes?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: They are, you know, for some things they embrace other things they're less comfortable with, and then so I'll go off on on my own.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: And uh yeah, I think we've you know we've established a a happy uh happy balance there.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, my my again, my kids are still young, so if there's animals involved, they're there.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: Oh god, you know, yeah, yeah.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: Grand Riviere and uh you go you know looking for looking for manatees and uh you know all the all of the uh the the turtle work and with the ibis and coroni and so if there's animals they're they're they're gonna be.
• 11:14
  Corie: Okay, there's book us currently I've never been Grand Rivier book us.
• 11:18
  Corie: Let's go into these places.
• 11:19
  Corie: We can't um this is embarrassing.
• 11:22
  Corie: You call these places not a Google.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well come with me.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'll take you.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, let's go together.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, sure.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: You could take us around the place.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we've yeah, we found a few a few favorite spots.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, when when we have visitors too, there's uh there's also an obligation as a host to show them show them around.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and I've yeah, I because I hear what you say, you know, even my uh my own country.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: I grew up in Toronto, but there's all kinds of places that uh that I only visit when people are coming to you know to to pay us a visit and you have to show them around.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: But otherwise, you know, it's pretty easy to to take your own backyard for granted.
• 11:58
  Corie: I guess, I guess.
• 11:59
  Corie: So when you mention places like Grand River, and uh my times in Grand Rivere was really looking at turtle watching and these kind of things.
• 12:06
  Corie: I know there's a connection you're making there between us and Canada as well.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: Well, remember I I say there's a lot of connections between Canada and Trinidad and Tobago, and they're just everywhere, but including the turtles.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that we talk about people-to-people connections, but there's turtle to turtle.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: And the people and the saltfish.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that's it.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: No, I mean, one story you tell this even before to the turtles, is uh we've been doing trade for hundreds of years, yeah, literally hundreds of years, and including some of the in the early days we used to sell uh a lot of lumber uh down uh down down in Trindad and Tobago.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_03: So a lot of that lumber made its way into the foundations of some of the the earliest buildings.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so I like to say Canada's part of the bones of uh of Port of Spain, but but but on the turtles no, there's a direct connection, and we've because of that connection, we've had uh long-term uh research programs in place with our Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and among other things, they uh they provide support to NGOs here with with uh materials and equipment uh uh to help them capture the data.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so in the you know you have to have to see some of these marvelous images of uh these digital maps that track the with GPS, uh the the movements of the of uh these turtles.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: And and so often they the the highest concentration of uh foraging grounds for for the leatherbacks are off the east coast of of Canada.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: So it's the highest concentration of they forage on giant jellyfish.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I guess those giant jellyfish apparently eat the larvae of uh of fishes that are important for our uh our fisheries industry.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: And the turtles here are important for for uh Trinidad and Tobago's ecotourism industry.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: So we have a deeply shared interest in protecting them.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: And uh but it's but you've I'm sure you've seen those maps at one point or another, but to watch them make the 8,000, 9,000 kilometer journey, you know, across the open ocean with no reference points and to find their way into the islands and eventually find the the very beach that they were born on.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, amazing, right?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: And all this is mind-blowing stuff.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: It is and um so just another another form of uh you know, everywhere we look, there's there's some connection back to Canada, it seems.
• 14:18
  Corie: Makes sense.
• 14:19
  Corie: Okay, so let's get to the basic questions, right?
• 14:21
  Corie: For people like me who don't know much at all.
• 14:23
  Corie: When you have something like a diplomatic mission, that is an embassy, the Canadian embassy we've known here for some for quite some time.
• 14:28
  Corie: Sure, sure.
• 14:29
  Corie: And you've been here for a year and a half or so.
• 14:30
  Corie: Yeah, that's about it.
• 14:31
  Corie: Yeah.
• 14:31
  Corie: Yeah.
• 14:31
  Corie: What what what is your role of the mission in Trinidad and Twego?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we're we're here to basically serve the interest of our of our country and our and our citizens.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: And and that uh, you know, that can that can range from everything from serving Canadian citizens, so on a consular basis.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, if they get into if they get into trouble or if they lose their passport, uh, you know, those types of things.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: We can help kind of structure when people want to visit Canada and you know, looking for visas and such, so we have a team that can that can advise and and manage some of those processes.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but really managing the relationship between our two countries, that's that's part of the backbone of uh of what we do.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and we do, you know, we share a lot of interests at the moment, and and and and frankly have for a long time.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: So those interests can be they can be commercial, we do we do quite a bit of trade back and forth, uh they can be security related, you know.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: We uh you know the world is a smaller and smaller place, and there's there's organized crime uh uh certainly in Canada, there's organized crime here and up through the islands, and yeah.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and so we we work together to to to make inroads on it, and um and there's cultural exchanges as well, and because you know there's uh the the training diaspora in Canada is really a force, yeah.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's of course really an important presence uh for us.
• 15:47
  Corie: Yeah, so when you say a long time relationship, like I remember from childhood, one of the earliest things I know about Canada.
• 15:53
  Corie: Maybe I was like one of those children who came to the cinema at the time.
• 15:55
  Corie: Sure.
• 15:55
  Corie: The first time I heard Canada was about nursing and teaching.
• 15:58
  Corie: You know about this?
• 15:59
  Corie: Sure.
• 15:59
  Corie: Like people just go to do I have several family members who go over there to do nursing, go over there to do teaching.
• 16:05
  Corie: That's part of what the mission is in terms of helping people understand what opportunities they are.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that that's part of it for sure.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then we we always just look for uh you know win-win opportunities.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: How can a you know a Canadian business who's looking to uh invest in in the country and what does the country have to offer and see if we can make matches in that sense, or or they can be you know trinity artists who are looking to expand their their uh their audience, and uh you know a lot of uh artists and a lot of businesses really use Canada as a platform to start uh branching out because it's because of the presence of the Caribbean diaspora, but the Trinity diaspora as well is is so strong.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: So there's already kind of a ready-made uh audience and market for products and and and services.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um so it's kind of a safe landing, but from there you can really you know expand out into other parts of the country, and from there it's uh it can be a platform to to expand into the US and into Europe more broadly.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: So it's uh it's a real launching pad, and uh and so we're here to help make those connections happen.
• 17:07
  Corie: Oh with you.
• 17:08
  Corie: Toronto in particular is known for its Caribbean population, right?
• 17:11
  Corie: Sure is, and for like Drake, you know, borrowing from Caribbean culture and so on.
• 17:14
  Corie: So I think we could establish that it's something that that's been known for that relationship with Toronto in particular.
• 17:21
  Corie: Is it is it all over Canada, like with fine Caribbean people, uh uh Toronto and Montreal for sure.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you you can't absolutely right right across the country.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: You're you're right, it's concentrated around the the greater Toronto area.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: But a lot of our links on our east coast uh are uh are historic as well.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um the the saltfish uh that's that's part of uh that's part of just everyday life here.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, a lot of that originated from salted cod off the Canada's East Coast that that we've been selling uh down uh down here for 200 years, you know, long before either of our countries were were independent.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um so yeah, so there's a there's there's business relationships, there's education relationships, uh really right across the country.
• 18:01
  Corie: I understand, I understand.
• 18:02
  Corie: How difficult is it for a person if they're looking for work and stuff to go to Canada?
• 18:06
  Corie: Because when I when I again growing up, you would see people migrate to the US or migrate to England.
• 18:12
  Corie: Sure, those would be two the two of the bigger ones for Caribbean people in particular.
• 18:15
  Corie: But it all is seemed to be this feeling like it's easier to get to Canada and then figure it out from the case.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't I don't know.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if it's easier to to get to Canada, but I do know that uh when people do arrive, uh they thrive.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: Because the community is really it's appreciated, it's really accepted.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: Accepted is the wrong word, it's uh appreciated is better, uh it's embraced um and it's succeeding.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so the you know, the people from the diaspora that are that are in the highest offices of of academia and of engineering and of commerce and of the arts, and and so it's a it's a community that's deeply integrated and and welcome.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: So we do find that when when people find their way to Canada, uh that uh more often than not, they have wonderful experiences.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: And and that's that's not to say they they cut ties with back home and you know, far far from it, uh you know it's one thing that keeps our country so close together is that uh that people who do move to Canada retain those links, and so they're going back and forth, and family are families are visiting back and forth uh all throughout the year.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: So um so with the experiences that they gain from Canada, uh oftentimes we see they they bring them back and share them with the rest of the country here.
• 19:25
  Corie: Yeah, and that's West Indian people feel money, right?
• 19:27
  Corie: We we we we f we form those fusions, you know what I mean?
• 19:30
  Corie: And uh like one of those experiences, and I think we spoke about it the first time we spoke, we were talking about it.
• 19:36
  Corie: One of those experiences is Caribana, where people we have a little bit of ourselves as displayed over there.
• 19:42
  Corie: Then and it's something you participate in in order to attend idea.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I've so for Carabana, I grew up, I'm a Toronto boy myself, so I grew up in in Toronto, and I always heard of and was aware of, and uh and I always kind of see caravana but from the outside.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, a little intimidated, not too familiar with exactly what uh what it's all about, which has made this experience just so much more special because you feel like I've come back to the heart of Carnival and to to see the origin story, and you know, to go spend uh you know at three in the morning, go down downtown and see Canbule, did reenact the uh the the origin story behind Carnival.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: So it feels like it's you know taking a peek behind the curtain and and seeing uh seeing the wizard and what's what's really uh behind uh behind all this energy.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: And it's uh it's an incredible energy.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think you know, Caravana itself uh attracts over two million people to Toronto every year.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's the biggest it's the biggest carnival uh in North America.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um but uh but I've also come to learn that there's you know outside of the Caribbean uh the Caribbean community, there's a Trini fest in Toronto as well.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: So the Toronto Trinbago Festival.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's not uh not nearly as old.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: I think we're on our fifth uh fifth iteration this year.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: But last year they had over 60,000 people come through over three days, and it's just to celebrate uh Trinity culture in uh in Canada and um and it and it's become a real big highlight, not just for the diaspora again, for the Trinity, for the Caribbean community, but you can you watch people who have no connections to the Caribbean just start to taste and and uh and and and enjoy and discover everything that your dad has to offer.
• 21:22
  Corie: Yeah, when you talk about taste, uh uh a foodie on the outside here too.
• 21:28
  Corie: They embarrassing us more and more.
• 21:29
  Corie: You make Kalaloo?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: I make Kalaloo, yeah, yeah.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: We used to be uh used to be my weekend uh thing and we like blender Kalaloo or Swizzle stick Kalaloo, there's a difference in what you I'm I'm a blender myself.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: But then I remember now my family was away, I was on my own and said, okay, let's go, let's go discover a bit.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, we went into central market and they found you know the best dashing bush uh seller, and they found a you know, I couldn't imagine, couldn't believe the option.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: For the different pumpkin and ochre that you have, and uh you see when you do it, it's when we stores, right?
• 22:05
  Corie: They have something called a Kalulu pack.
• 22:06
  Corie: I don't listen to these people there.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I've seen the pack, I've seen the pack.
• 22:11
  Corie: I've looked down my nose at the pack and you're wearing a deaf places that cook the Kalaloo already, they call restaurants.
• 22:20
  Corie: I've heard of this.
• 22:22
  Corie: We need help diplomatic missions.
• 22:24
  Corie: We have a personal diplomatic mission to resolve here.
• 22:26
  Corie: Okay.
• 22:27
  Corie: I mean, told I've never been, but people who have been are told that in Caribana you can't drink alcohol on the streets on these things.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: You could help us with it because I mean, let me look into it, I'll get it back to you and look back to you.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:42
  Corie: Well, it's just the laws of it.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's just the laws, though.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: The laws of the land, which which again makes the experience here uh you know so special.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: So special.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's just just so open and so free and uh and inclusive, you know, you know, you know, you know the story that the I couldn't believe at the beginning, you know, there's it's young kids and there's uh old folks as well, there's uh there's small folks, there's big folks, you know.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's one thing, it's one thing.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone, everything, everything.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: And it's non-stop.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's non-stop, and and it's not a spectator sport, it's a it's an event to participate in, and that's a it's a beautiful thing.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it's yeah, it's yeah.
• 23:16
  Corie: So early life for you grow growing up in Toronto, what what was what was early life like for you there?
• 23:21
  Corie: You had ambitions of doing these things you're doing now?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh not not exactly this.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: No, I mean I didn't know this of the of this world really, but uh I mean I grew up in about a uh you know stable kind of typical household.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: My you know, the family stayed in the family home for 50 years or so and without moving, and uh so super stable with with very little change, uh which uh you know so my my mother reminds me frequently, what did we do wrong to make you leave us and uh go but really what I what I looking back on it, I think that you know they that that upbringing provided uh the the stability and the and the confidence to be able to go out and and you know put yourself in the in more uh difficult or uncomfortable positions, knowing that you had this this safe spot back home.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: So that that was really uh really important to me.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: But I don't know, growing up I I would you know I'm a middle child, I was always seemed to be a bit of a bit of a peacemaker, you know, bring different different sides together, you know, in the schoolyard and from uh you know just from a from the very beginning, and uh and I knew I always knew that I wanted to to play some sort of role in that with that function, if that makes any sense.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: And where did you go from there?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: What was your initial career?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: What where you started off?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: Well, initially, uh you know, I also felt very very privileged and fortunate to have that, you know, you have problems at home like everybody else, but all things considered, uh, you know, I had a great I had a great childhood, and and uh not everybody does.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I grew up in a great country, and other people, you know, have struggled in parts of the world that that have serious problems.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: And grew up in a generation uh in this country that was largely in a free from conflict and all the rest.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember, you know, I remember early days at university and just seeing, you know, spending time in some of these memorial buildings, paying tribute to uh to students in the past, university students in the past who who uh who volunteered in the in the world wars and and and perished.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: I remember what I still remember one inscription that said, you know, it's a tribute to all to those who gave everything they uh they were and all that they hoped to be.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: And and at that time, I my hopes were just enormous, right?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: And and to to offer that or to put that on the line really stuck with me.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: That I was here I was, you know, what on a at a bit at a time in a place where uh I had very little pressures.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so I felt that I had to uh I was just given a lot and that there was some obligation to to do something with it and to and to serve in in one form or another.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, again, it's early days, and so I didn't exactly know how that would materialize, but uh but uh you know I was interested in global events and and conflicts uh around the world.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean I studied in you know political studies and philosophy, uh where my more undergraduate majors, but so I was just aware of the uh of uh of the world and and the struggles.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, you know, uh if there's any anywhere that that uh needs help, it's it's out there.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's not necessarily at home.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: So that's where I started to look look outside and so I was it was in the military for a little while, uh I thought that might be a way to serve.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: So from Uli University you went to right before university, kind of leading up uh leading up to it.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: And it was an era where Canada was really uh big into peacekeeping, UN peacekeeping.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so that function again of bringing people together, uh, I thought was well suited to me.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: But uh and was it was a it was a wonderful experience, but uh but the limitations of a military tool uh you know show themselves um to me.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought you know there there might be other ways of addressing needs.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_03: What is the limitations like?
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: Well, uh if you're dealing with a conflict situation, um the military can be an important tool to keep party parties apart.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: But uh resolving a conflict or tension uh takes a lot more than that.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's about addressing the root causes and and the military necessarily isn't necessarily the best place to do that.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I you know at that stage is getting more into the studies and learning about you know different forms of insecurity and uh environmental insecurity, social insecurity, uh gender insecurity, and you know, economic insecurity, not just military security.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so thinking that you know conflict is really a product of people having a lack of uh you know, a lack of access to things, a lack of access to a job, a lack of access to you know uh belonging, and uh and addressing some of those those issues to me at the time seemed more uh of a question of dealing with the with individual aspirations.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: And and so that kind of led me into uh the NGO world and uh the development world.
• 28:12
  Corie: Maybe the the military, your own views mightn't be, I mean can't supersede what the military or the other.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: That's another that's another another part of it.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so but even and even when you believed in the mission, uh again its ability to to address root causes seemed limited.
• 28:26
  Corie: So gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: And you traveled a lot with the military at the time, you were uh no, I didn't I didn't uh travel a lot.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: I mean we trained uh quite a bit, uh you spent a good amount of time with the US and different US military bases and such, but um uh no, but but uh not uh not outside Canada.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: So to get outside of Canada, that kind of led me into the NGO world and uh in the humanitarian and development spheres.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: Where did that start?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: What what organization you eventually went to?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: Well I think my biggest uh biggest moment was with the Aga Khan Foundation of uh of Canada, which is part of the Aga Khan Development Network globally.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: And and uh from the with with them, I was uh uh took up a position with in Bangladesh uh with the with an organization, the acronym BRAC, and it's uh it's the world's largest indigenous uh NGO.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: And they uh you know at the time they ran uh they ran over 32,000 primary schools and over 8,000 schools for uh uh young girls uh in particular, adolescent uh girls in Bangladesh.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: In Bangladesh, yeah, yeah.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_03: Which so it's it's almost a shadow state at the time.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: This is a long time ago.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: But um so we worked with uh with this organization, BRAC, and about developing uh kind of uh conflict resolution parts to add into their into the uh primary school curriculum.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: But uh but it occurred to me because even in that assignment, you know, we went to every corner of the of the country, and which was you know just a wonderful, really rich experience, and going back with colleagues to their home villages, and you know, that took you know two ferries and three rickshaws and three buses to to get there.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: But and and but to connect in with with these these you know these colleagues and their old college friends, and uh, you know, I remember spending nights wandering the the village, uh, you know, wearing a lungie uh uh at the time, you know, maybe having a cigarette or or two, but drinking tea into the night, singing old songs with them that they used to sing, just really, real magical moments.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_03: But in terms of uh of impact, again, I was you know, I was working uh uh uh right across the country.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: But my Bangla, my local language was weak.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you know, you need interpreters uh and uh and uh and I remember reading a stat at the time that there were you know there were well over 10,000 unemployed PhD students.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and I thought, you know, really is is this the best place where I can have impact?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: Or or uh you know, I'm sure a good number of these these other unemployed folks could do what I was doing and probably even better.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I thought, well, you know, but these big questions when you're still a young man, you know, where's how can I have uh impact and what's my role here?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: Where's my comparative advantage?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: And and while it was uh personally very rewarding, uh I'm not sure that that was the best the best place to have impact.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: So I thought, well, you know, I come from a Western country, and at the time, you know, the uh you know, a lot of the development funding was coming from Western countries.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I thought, well, to be part of that, to be able to shape the systems and structures that that provide development assistance uh might be a way to have more impact.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: So that led me into government.
• 31:40
  Corie: I see, I see, I see.
• 31:41
  Corie: I have to ask you about your parents and how they felt when you went home and said, Well, I'm in Bangladesh or heading out.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 31:47
  Corie: What was their reaction at that time?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh well, you know, I again I I grew up in a charmed household.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: I feel very fortunate for everything I I had.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: Uh uh my mom was never she was always the anxious uh parent between the two, and really you're doing that?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: Why would you do that?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know why?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, typical typical parental uh love and concern and anxiety, and would much rather me be a little bit closer to home and you know do something a little bit more uh uh traditional and familiar.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um my dad would always say, you know, uh good for you.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, how how can I help?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'll take you to the airport, yeah.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: That kind of stuff.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, he was and and it's that kind of support, uh no matter what the decisions were, uh was was always there.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: And uh something that I don't do not take for granted.
• 32:40
  Corie: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:40
  Corie: I have a little brother who he wants to be a chef.
• 32:43
  Corie: Yeah, and there's a well at the time there was a great institution called uh Trinidad and Tobago Hospitality and Tourism Institute, that's a DHD.
• 32:51
  Corie: And I say, well, all right, you want to be a chef, yeah, go Shagaramas, he's from San Fernando.
• 32:56
  Corie: So I mean that's fine enough.
• 32:57
  Corie: Sure, sure.
• 32:58
  Corie: And then he found a school in Bulgaria at the time.
• 33:00
  Corie: I was like, hey, exactly.
• 33:03
  Corie: So I remember my father's anxiety and talking him out of he eventually ended up in Switzerland.
• 33:07
  Corie: But what I will say is that um when I look at him now at 20-something years old, he's so much more advanced and mature and lude.
• 33:14
  Corie: And I feel like I was who stayed here and studied.
• 33:16
  Corie: I mean it's different experiences.
• 33:17
  Corie: Sure, sure.
• 33:18
  Corie: But I I wonder if at that time you appreciated that, you starting to appreciate that cultural exchange and your own growth.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, absolutely.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: To me, that was that was all part of the adventure.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: And the and you know, I I I I try not to uh you know, amongst colleagues and such, uh, but I get pretty philosophical about these things pretty quickly.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: That is that we're you know we're just here for such a short time that, you know, if you know you look at the cosmos and and what kind of uh opportunity we have and just how you know what a uh kind of fluke of fate it is that we exist at all.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: That really if we're not you know uh getting the most out of every moment, whether it's contributing, whether it's learning, whether it's you know, squeezing as much life out of every every moment, then you know, aren't we betraying something that that that that gave us this this opportunity?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I've always just had that thirst for uh for for life.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you know, for its uh ups and downs.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's you know, it's sometimes a great experience, sometimes they're they're they're pretty awful experiences, uh, but it's a richness that uh that I think makes uh that leads to a fulfillment that that I value very much.
• 34:25
  Corie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 34:25
  Corie: And it's hard to replace with any other type of education, at least for me.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah, could be, could be.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: And again, that's this is kind of my path, you know, without without uh without judging others.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: But uh and I guess it changes with age too, and you know, we have a young family now, and you know, the thoughts of of my kids going out and doing some of these things, you know, ah goodness.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'll cross that when we come to it, I guess.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: But uh but you know, I want the best for them, but uh I don't know if my heart will be able to take it.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: I know what you mean.
• 34:55
  Corie: I know what you mean.
• 34:56
  Corie: No, we I live in a country where going up for government, when you say you'll switch to government, it looks a certain way, right?
• 35:02
  Corie: There's certain colours that you have to represent when you go up for government.
• 35:05
  Corie: So you have no hope outside of these two colours, right?
• 35:07
  Corie: People will tell you otherwise.
• 35:08
  Corie: So it looks like campaigning and stuff.
• 35:10
  Corie: Is it the same when you say go into government, is it the campaign trail and stuff you do it in kind of uh not not not so much in in our system, I guess.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: Uh because you know there's going political to the political level.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_03: If you wanted to join a political party, and that that's very much uh making choices, knowing where you fall ideologically and all the rest.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but uh when I say joining government, I mean joining our our bureaucracy, our government institutions.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: So and for that, you know, there's national exams and uh and interviews and all of the all of those things to uh to to to clear you in.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um but no, we you know we have some core public service values that we take very seriously, and part of them is is being uh apolitical.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I see that we you know you know democratic values of following the government of the day.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: So whether you agree or disagree, and and sometimes that can be easy, sometimes less so, but uh but there are values that we believe in strongly that I think ultimately lead to stronger uh institutions.
• 36:07
  Corie: Yeah, I get that.
• 36:08
  Corie: Even from small, you believed in those values anyway.
• 36:10
  Corie: It seems to be something that's in each to you.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I I believed in in them from an early day, but I only really appreciated the value after having spent a good amount of time in in countries that uh that struggle with institutions.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, you know, some some would say that uh you know it really makes the difference between a a state that that has uh resilience and can serve its people to one that is more fragile is the is the quality and strength of its institutions.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's a it can be a bit of a you know kind of a you know less dramatic, maybe a boring uh conclusion, but um but it's something that's shown itself pretty consistently that that uh it's when institutions lose their their way or when the population loses trust and faith in the institutions that uh we start to see problems.
• 36:59
  Corie: Yeah, anarchy is closest, at least ahead in that direction sometimes.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: Well, uh I mean I mean the government here uh you know it's it's it's been uh it's been a pleasure really working with it.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: And and uh you know, I'm sure in uh in our own system there we we're we have a lot of criticisms of our own government.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, on in any any given day, any talk show we'll see strong points of view on different sides, and and I know that's the case here as well.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: And on social media.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_03: And on social media, yeah.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: Every everyone has a has an opinion.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: But ultimately you have the space to have those debates, and that's not something that that every country enjoys.
• 37:37
  Corie: No, I feel like it's something we shouldn't take for granted at all.
• 37:40
  Corie: I'm sure you well, you've lived in places where it's not.
• 37:44
  Corie: So what institution did you get into when you went into governance?
• 37:47
  Corie: Where did you start?
• 37:48
  Corie: Or government?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I started with our uh development agency, CEDA, Canada, the Canadian International Development Agency, which uh uh which no longer exists.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's been folded into our foreign ministry.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, so I was doing uh development work in different different country contexts uh for some time.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um but always always in conflict or conflict adjacent scenarios.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: By choice?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: By choice, yeah, yeah.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: You wanted against us.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: I I did, I did, yeah.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: Because I again I thought that's where you know uh I remember speaking to lots lots of folks growing up, but I remember my time in Afghanistan, for example, uh, you know, really, really tough.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh mostly difficult, uh physically difficult, intellectually challenging.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but it mattered.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: And you could see that it mattered because the the issues we were we were grappling with were often life life and death issues.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I don't know, maybe it's a a smaller mind that needs to be close to those issues to feel um you know, feel the impact of of their decisions, but um, but it was very real, you know, and then some of the decisions we made day to day had very serious consequences.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and and and you know if you care about uh uh you know having real impact on the direction that individual lives are taking, that's uh that's a pretty intoxicating thing to be close to and to be able to be part of.
• 39:14
  Corie: I would think so.
• 39:14
  Corie: I would think so.
• 39:15
  Corie: So and and your role then as non-military is all diplomatic as well.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: That's right, yeah.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean my first assignment in in Afghanistan was uh was in the south of the country in Kandahar, but I was the the only civilian at the time on a military base.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, yeah, at the without getting you know getting in all the all the details, but it was a little military out outpost, but whose design, whose purpose, whose mandate was to extend the uh the authority and credibility of the central government.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: And there were outposts in other provinces run by other countries as well as well, but we we looked after uh uh Kandahar at the time.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: And um and yes, we had a big militar military uh you know uh uh service there that uh whose whose critical role was was to support the establishment essentially of these institutions at the at a at the grassroots and and uh and we had uh you know a lot of resources at our disposal, um a lot of pressure to deliver results, but without much of a roadmap at all.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I think we so we spent a lot of a lot of time doing that with uh with some successes and some failures, and but it was probably one of the uh most rewarding experiences uh of my life.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh it was.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: So you felt like you made made in roads?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: Made in roads, yeah.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean it's uh it makes the the tragedy of uh of of Afghanistan today uh that much more difficult to to to to witness and to to see.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: But no, but at the time to be able to uh you know to have an an assignment where everything about you is is being tested, and that's uh a chance to re fully exert and in an area that I'd that I'd really committed in my life to.
• 40:59
  Corie: I I spoke to um a few of the uh West Indies cricketers, they were playing CPL, uh not CPL, but T20 cricket, they were playing India, England, Australia.
• 41:09
  Corie: Sure.
• 41:09
  Corie: And I remember hearing from them when Afghanistan started a league and they had to go to Afghanistan, and they're all considering, well, should I do this or not?
• 41:16
  Corie: Sure.
• 41:16
  Corie: And I mean at that point in time is far removed from when you were there, but there's conflict, there's there's a lot happening.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_04: Sure.
• 41:22
  Corie: I have to ask you, as somebody I know who goes, you go into Grand River, you go in Birdwatch.
• 41:27
  Corie: Is it the same in Afghanistan?
• 41:28
  Corie: You get a chance to absorb the culture, you leave the base, you're around with the people.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh not to the extent maybe you can do here by by any means, no.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, at the beginning it was a little more open.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_03: I remember the you know, in the early days, we'd uh yeah, we'd hop in the back of a pickup truck and go downtown and uh and then we engage with you know remote communities, with the with the tribal elders and uh and such.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but thing you know, things got worse so over time.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so we were no longer allowed to be in a pickup truck, then it would have to be a light armored vehicle.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but then but then those were being uh targeted and destroyed, and we and we suffered a lot of casualties and a lot of deaths and uh and and injuries, and and so those would be destroyed, so then we couldn't, you know, we'd have to go into a uh heavier armored vehicle, and then those would be hit, and so then it was only helicopters.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: So over time it was uh our connections became more and more distant.
• 42:23
  Corie: Was your personal stress level like the day-to-day?
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh high.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was it was uh it was it was high, but uh because it was consequential.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and so there's you know, there's no mailing it in and uh and you know just just filling in the filling in the blanks.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_03: There's there's an opportunity, there's a pressure and and an obligation to give everything you had to to to every decision.
• 42:49
  Corie: It's interesting that you described that as one of your most rewarding times.
• 42:53
  Corie: Uh you know, I expected it to say one of the most difficult times.
• 42:56
  Corie: Uh it it was both.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_03: It was it was both.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_03: But uh but you know, maybe that, you know, when uh it's in those challenging moments that uh that you learn different things about yourself.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you prove different things to your yourself and you find yourself uh a little bit more, and and you know, uh but I I remember numerous uh incidents and stories of of just lives uh changing, and and to be a part of that is something very, very uh precious indeed.
• 43:24
  Corie: Yeah, my experience with this is limited to things like saving private rent and stuff.
• 43:27
  Corie: So for you outside of the because there's country to country relations and there's there's things that the established government is trying to do, but I suppose at some point it comes down to you with a person and culturally the person sees a white, what we might just say white American or white you know from from somewhere.
• 43:44
  Corie: What is the interpersonal relationship like in zones like those?
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, no, it's a it's it's a good question, and uh and I think you're you're right, that is the very the first impression, sometimes from both sides, that you know this person is uh you know might as well be an alien, right?
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what what do I have in in common with them?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: And on the surface, uh maybe not much.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh language, uh, you know, cuisine, everything, family dynamics, uh everything might might be different.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: But one of the the you know, the real true glories of uh spending a career uh surrounded by difference uh is is being able to find the the similarities as well and the universals and that are just below the surface.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so yeah, the the superficial things are very different.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: But after spending a little bit of time, I find that uh in you know it sounds pretty cliche to entrite to say it, but it but it's a real truth that that we have more in common than than than we have uh differences.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, everybody wants uh they want uh to be able to provide for their family, they want a little bit of dignity, uh, they want a better future for their kids, and they and they want to to to to do it in peace.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, of course.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, everybody wants that.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, you know, and that can express itself in different ways, but uh, you know, and everybody wants uh a little bit of love, love in their life in one form or another, and you know, friendship or romantic love, but they want love in their life.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: And those those those are universals.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I find what you know you spend a little bit of time with with people and just enough to to build a bit of trust, people let their guard down, and you can start uh connecting with those with those universals.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_03: And that's when some pretty special things uh happen.
• 45:25
  Corie: Makes sense.
• 45:26
  Corie: Makes sense.
• 45:26
  Corie: No, I heard from people who work with whether it's expats or in missions like yourself, that the most difficult thing to do is to get somebody to leave and come to turn that to work.
• 45:34
  Corie: But then the second most difficult thing to come to go back.
• 45:37
  Corie: Was it what I get for you when you were leaving Afghanistan?
• 45:39
  Corie: Was it or you happen to leave?
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, yeah, it was mixed escalating.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: Mixed emotions because it's uh I was also conscious of the you know the worry and the anxiety that uh my family was feeling back.
• 45:50
  Corie: Yeah, I'm worried about mommy now.
• 45:52
  Corie: You tell mommy you're going to Afghanistan, and so that's where we were going because I had a side somewhere else.
• 45:56
  Corie: So I could imagine how that went.
• 45:58
  Corie: So yeah.
• 45:58
  Corie: And Daddy's still like he'll take you to the airport, he was supportive.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, I knew he struggled in in inside as well.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: But uh no, but those those are those are those are hard moments.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: I remember having conversations that you know, look, if if any anything's happened, know that I am where I where where I need to be.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and I believe in what I'm what I'm doing.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_03: So so that if anything ever happened, that they could at least have the you know the peace of mind that uh that uh that this is okay.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we we have a very short time on earth.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_03: If if my time was a little bit shorter, you know, it the the the the the quality and the meaning behind what I what I felt I was uh part of uh was more important.
• 46:42
  Corie: Yeah, but yeah, loud and clear, real difficult for a parent to hear them.
• 46:46
  Corie: Sure.
• 46:46
  Corie: Extremely difficult for them to hear.
• 46:48
  Corie: So anyway, you went back and you're still in the same in the same institution in Canada.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, well uh yeah, so I went back to it and uh uh then we took a different assignments.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_03: It was uh in in Khartoum in Sudan for uh for a number of years.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um that was just before the the referendum on separation and so conflict at the time as well.
• 47:09
  Corie: It was it wasn't a hot conflict at the time, but there was latent uh No well your comparison point now is I mean skewed because you you might be able to measure hot conflict after coming out of Afghanistan.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_03: But it was it was not that there were problems, yeah.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, addressing and you know we we see in Sudan today, right?
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's another kind of layer of of tragedy uh that uh that that's that's tough to come to terms with and to look at too closely.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_03: But but tension between uh within South Sudan, uh uh between South Sudan at the time and and Sudan proper.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um and now we see within Sudan itself uh and and and you know the horrific war that's taken the civil war that's taken place there over the last couple of years.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but well while I was there, it wasn't uh again the those those uh those tent it was a moment of respite between the the open conflict and and the role then was what what you were there to similar.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_03: It was it was a uh it was there as our head of our uh head of aid, so head of our development work, and which was significant at the time.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_03: I remember we were, you know, we were doing a a hundred million dollars of uh of support into the country each year.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so it was to work with communities and to work with government to to find you know the best ways to to use use those resources to provide uh uh support for the pe for the people, whether it was humanitarian assistance in some of the harder hit areas.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um I mean Darfur at the time was still was still struggling, so that took a lot of humanitarian assistance, some humanitarian assistance in the South Sudan as well, but uh but other community develop development works, uh works with the Ministry of Finance to help try and build the institutions.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_03: And um again, we had some successes, uh some failures, but uh you know the tragic point is is where we look today is that it just wasn't uh it wasn't enough.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, never to suggest that you know Canada could ever be enough, you know, these we were one part of a of a global effort, um, and ultimately, you know, real responsibility uh for the trajectory of the country is is with the national leaders themselves.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_03: And uh you know, which are were uh which are ultimately political decisions, which uh, you know, after spending a little bit more time in those realities pushed me a little bit further away from development, saying, uh, you know, actually, if you really want to impact, you know, maybe it's more on the political side than than just on the development side.
• 49:35
  Corie: Gotcha.
• 49:35
  Corie: I can see you talk about the places now.
• 49:37
  Corie: Like when you talk about what Afghanistan has become or Sudan, for instance.
• 49:40
  Corie: Do you take it not personally, but you you've really invested in it while you're there in terms of Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, and uh, you know, as you l you alluded to before, it's uh you know, we talk about state-to-state relations, but ultimately what does that mean?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_03: Ultimately, it's about people.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so when I think of Afghanistan, I you know, I think of individuals.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and same thing with with Sudan.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, even our even our staff at the time who were forced to flee and are in tough spots now.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I gotta say, I still get phone calls from time to time from uh from Afghans you used to work with who are who might be outside of the country, who are marooned or in refugee situations and are still looking for for help.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_03: I would imagine you would send them a call for help anyway, so they would Well you know, at the time, yeah, you know, even getting some phone calls with from uh leaders who at the time were very strong uh and who called the sh called a lot of shots and uh that I had a lot of deference for and respect for because they were they represented their community's voices, but but even they have been some of them have been driven driven out.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so to hear from them I I I found particularly heartbreaking because if those people are struggling, you know goodness the average person uh be in a tough spot.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, after after Sudan, we uh in uh uh uh in Egypt, in Cairo, Egypt for a little while in between the two revolutions uh with the Arab Spring.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_03: And uh we spent a few years there before moving to Amman, Jordan.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and from there one of the reasons to move to Amman was that it was seemed to be um the international capital where the response to the Syria crisis was was being led from.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_03: And Canada was quite active in in that response.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_03: And um so we spent a few years there.
• 51:27
  Corie: Yeah.
• 51:28
  Corie: No, see why you enjoying these panyards on Grand Rivera and these things.
• 51:33
  Corie: I wonder if know when you look at where the world is today, because we have we're not shows of conflicts today.
• 51:39
  Corie: You you miss doing that kind of thing?
• 51:40
  Corie: No, that you where you're I mean uh uh I I do.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um I miss uh I I miss those.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_03: I mean those those contacts are I feel more familiar to and and we've learned a lot.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and so uh you know, I'd like to to go back to those contacts at at some point, you know, maybe when the family's at a different stage, but uh to be able to you know to apply a lot of the things we learned.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, unfortunately we learned a lot of things through through failure, right?
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: And and so just to be able to uh to pull some of those lessons out and and to put them back into practice would be uh would be rewarding.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_03: And again, for for many of the same reasons uh uh that that is drawn to those situations in the in the first place.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_03: And that there's there's there's there's real uh uh tragedy happening to individuals.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and if we ever felt that there was something we could do about it, you know, if if we can, we ought to, you know, the the can ought principle.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_03: So someday to get back to it.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_03: On the other side of the ledger, I don't know, if you if you look at anything close enough, uh it it can be interesting, right?
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: And uh in any any kind of human interactions, uh there's room to to help them uh improve improve.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_03: So it doesn't necessarily need to be with uh mortars flying, uh but uh so it's it's in that's that's the spirit I'm uh kind of working in uh in now.
• 53:04
  Corie: I can see it, I can see it.
• 53:05
  Corie: Yeah, I guess you'll have a tendency to seek out wherever the biggest challenges are and lean towards that.
• 53:10
  Corie: Sure.
• 53:10
  Corie: And for better or for worse, there's there's no shortage of challenges.
• 53:14
  Corie: Right, okay.
• 53:15
  Corie: Gotcha, gotcha.
• 53:16
  Corie: So again, where I come from is uh if I'm going to be on a diplomatic mission, I would probably go on the political route and then get posted in retirement.
• 53:23
  Corie: How did you get into the the rules?
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um again, so so just to join the government was through through these national competitions and such.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so that that was the way in, and then uh and then throughout your career, there's there's other competitions to put in uh you put your name in uh in for.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then it's uh you know just a slow like any big uh institution, I imagine, you know, a combination.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_03: If you do a few things uh a little bit well and uh and you're recognized here or there, then you can you can start to to bubble to the top uh a little bit.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_03: But uh but yeah, for taking on uh an ambassadorial post, it's it's a little bit similar.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_03: You have to put your hand up and and you have to be uh uh you know supported and recognized and uh and and and all the rest.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_03: So that's uh that's where we are today.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_03: So this was would have been your first ambassadorial post?
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, in uh in Algeria I was I was ambassador there for three years, just before coming here.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a wonderful country.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I tell anybody who uh who will listen to me, but uh uh I mean I I don't know whether it sometimes I I think it it suffers from a from a poor image.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, people might still have in mind you know the civil war that they went through not too long ago.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um but uh but the country that that's that's there today is really a glorious place.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, with there's this terrific diversity and the cultural impressions left by you know waves of different uh different empires uh have left their left their impact on the language, on the cuisine, on the architecture.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it's uh it's it's a less well-known but uh but a marvelous place.
• 55:05
  Corie: Yeah.
• 55:05
  Corie: And is it that when you put your hand up, there's an open for Algeria or there's just an open for uh uh for a mission and you they they decide where to post it?
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, you know, each year there'll be a list of uh of openings that are expected to come up, and and you know, those are different levels and for different durations, and uh um and so you put your name up and you you you choose.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_03: You choose preferences, right?
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_03: And then those go into a big uh back box where the wizards and Jedi's of the of the foreign ministry do do their magic and see what they come up with.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_03: And then one one day you get a phone call saying, okay, you're we've decided congratulations, you're going to XYZ or or not.
• 55:45
  Corie: I would imagine you'll you'll as you would usually do, enjoy their time in Algeria, absorb the culture, sure, made made relationships and so on.
• 55:53
  Corie: How does it come to an end?
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_03: Is it that you they put up your hand to go somewhere else or not so much uh you know we usually have a timeline, so an assignment will be for a fixed fixed period, more or less, and uh and so you can see you can see the end coming, which uh which I don't know is a pretty interesting thing because it's not always in in life when you know that you're going to move and you're going to change, but it in this in this uh you know in this line of career you do.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's always kind of a an endpoint that you're working towards.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know, and sometimes I find that a bit of a crutch uh for for how to how to manage it uh personally, because you know the end is coming, so it's so this pressure to make the most of the time you have.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, it's a little microcosm.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, I'm uh going down this this path, but uh it's a little microcosm of of life.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_03: We we don't know when our end is, and so it so sometimes we take it for granted.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_03: But if you knew, you know, whenever June, June 28th, uh 2000 X is the end, it puts you in a different mindset, wouldn't it, wouldn't it?
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like you you just know that I mean we all know, but we we kind of put it off to the to the side.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_03: But if you have a date, uh just encourages you to make the most of the friendships and and not to waste time.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's it's been one one uh wonderful thing within the diplomatic communities that other people are doing the same thing.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so I find that uh when you do uh arrive in country and kind of engage with some other diplomats who've been doing it for a while, you recognize there's no time to waste with the niceties and you know we'll take a couple months to get to know each other.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_03: Nice to meet you.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, let's let's go for a hike tomorrow.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_03: We're now best friends, you know, that that kind of thing.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I suppose you have to build these relationships.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_03: You do, but and but when you go for it and you find and if others are open to it, you you know, there's a realization, well, of course we should.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_03: Why would we why would anybody waste time?
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_03: Let's let's just get to the real stuff as as soon as we can, because we're because our time in this country is short, our time on this earth is short.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um and and you know, why not just go for meaning?
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh instead of letting the you know the dramas of everyday life get in the way.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, just go for go for the real stuff.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_03: So from Algiers back to Canada, or you posted here.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_03: We came more or less directly here, yeah.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that was it.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah, directly.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_03: So a bit of a contrast, yeah.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_03: But uh but it but it's been so nice again for the for the whole family just to uh to start to explore.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_03: And again, growing up in Toronto, I was always familiar with uh with Caribbean culture, but I I of course didn't know it as as well as uh uh as you can uh just by by living here.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_03: So it's been it's been great to explore.
• 58:30
  Corie: Right, and you're with family in Algeria as well.
• 58:32
  Corie: All these missions, you know, all these you're with family all the time, Afghanistan.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_03: No, not Afghanistan.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_03: No, Afghanistan is on my own, Sudan is on my own.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, gotcha, gotcha.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Egypt and Jordan with uh with partner and um and then Algeria brought the kids out.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: Kids arrived on the scene, you know.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_03: All right, okay, all right.
• 58:52
  Corie: African continent and to do that.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_03: No, I mean the thing is that our kids have spent more time in Algeria and in Trinidad and Tobago than they have in Canada now.
• 59:01
  Corie: Oh, I see, of course, right.
• 59:03
  Corie: So uh so from there came here, and again, you something that you wanted to do, you saw the open and you and you went for it.
• 59:09
  Corie: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, how the kids enjoyed it?
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_03: How much of the well they're they're super happy again, but you know, they're they're young, so we go out to the you know to the Bamboo Cathedral and look for howler monkeys.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so once they have animals, they're good.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and so they they really enjoy that.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_03: Or you know, again, when uh they're they're kids, so just going to any waterside uh, you know, to scramble around the rocks and look for crabs and try and spot some mantas out in the uh out in the water, uh they're happy.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_03: They're happy.
• 59:41
  Corie: So you don't have a whole bunch of resistance home and you say, well, I guess everybody knows the timeline too.
• 59:44
  Corie: It's three years, so everybody's mindset is yeah, but the the the the clock's ticking and then of course gotcha, gotcha.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_03: So even even the little kids, you know, the young kids, they they'll they'll have things, you know.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_03: Before we go, I I you know I want us to do X and Y and Z.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_03: I understand, I understand.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_03: So that just sometimes that X and Y is like, I want to go to Chuck E.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_03: Cheese.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, whatever, whatever.
• 1:00:05
  Corie: Yeah, see, I'm thinking of kids in my adult mind.
• 1:00:08
  Corie: Yeah, because I'm thinking of the resistance.
• 1:00:10
  Corie: I would look at those three years as okay, you know, come down back to Toronto.
• 1:00:14
  Corie: I always want to get back to home.
• 1:00:15
  Corie: Right, right, right, sure.
• 1:00:16
  Corie: How difficult though, how much of a transition is it for you to make a new home in the in the countries that you go to so trend, for instance?
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_03: It uh there's always a bit of a friction, yeah, a little bit of a transition.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_03: And as you know, you find your new routines and uh and such, but uh but again, it's uh like it's it's a real privilege to do that because it forces you to come to terms with what's what's important to you, what matters.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we have all these boxes of things that we bring along, but you know, by the time they're on a boat, it takes months before they arrive, and you know, oftentimes you realize you know you forget about it.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_03: It and and it helps you to realize uh what matters.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_03: And what matters often are you know relationships, so you really invest in uh in getting to know some people and and finding your people, you know, those those people you you just connect with, and um and yeah, and just and just establishing uh new routines.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I mean it's a different thing I find with with young kids too, because now I I I don't really spend much time thinking about my my myself.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's just it's really focused on on them, making sure that they're happy they found their their tribe and and uh and that they that they're excited to be here as well.
• 1:01:25
  Corie: Makes sense, makes sense.
• 1:01:26
  Corie: No, your tribe out here too, Malachi loves Tobago.
• 1:01:29
  Corie: They say you've been to Tobago much more often than I've been from my lifetime.
• 1:01:32
  Corie: This isn't getting more and more embarrassing as we go.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, no, again, we've we've we've had uh we've had visitors out and uh and so you want to take show them show them as much as we can.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_03: We often take them to Tobago and and yeah, it's just a it's just a glorious place.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_03: It is.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I don't know.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_03: When I first got here, you know, I had the question of you know, well, that's a you know, it's a great island with all kinds of coasts.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I wonder why they we don't have the big the big hotels and the big resorts and all the rest.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_03: And but you know what?
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_03: Now I think I understand I understand why.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_03: If I was uh living on on the island, I wouldn't want those.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't want those either.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_03: I I wouldn't.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the fact that you know no um no beaches are privately owned and and to preserve that is is is something uh that I would value if I was living there, and and uh and just finding its uh its hidden gems, you know.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's part of its uh of its charm.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_03: And kind of the boutique uh tourism that that you know you start having the the the big big folks show up, uh you know, take eliminate some of that space.
• 1:02:36
  Corie: Yeah, it's unique because uh I lived in Jamaica for a while and they have huge resorts.
• 1:02:40
  Corie: And it's nice, I love Jamaica, but um it is a little different.
• 1:02:44
  Corie: Tobago for me feels like a a sort of a reset of sorts.
• 1:02:48
  Corie: Sure.
• 1:02:48
  Corie: I mean uh the Trendad might be fast space for for where you come from compared, but it's like Trendad always doesn't sure and then Tobago it feels like an immediate pause.
• 1:02:58
  Corie: Right, right.
• 1:02:58
  Corie: But I haven't I don't know much people that came here whether whether on missions or just people who I know work that work here from abroad that take many people to Tobago.
• 1:03:06
  Corie: How can we made it a point to get them out there?
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_03: Well I'll be so so that they can see what what I saw and and and they have and and they want to come back.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they do.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so the the calendar's getting a little bit getting a little busy with but uh I think it's impossible for your calendar to be busy.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_03: But for some some of the special moments, I remember just being you know in Black Rock Beach and uh you know just playing with the kids, and so you know, somebody else is playing beside with their kids, you know, doing our own thing over time, you know, the kids start playing together, you start chatting with the with the with the dad a little bit, and you know, and then uh tells me his his story and how he ended up there and the the draw for uh uh you know the the quietness and uh and and and and just get to know the person as a as a person.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_03: And then you know, he was kind enough to invite me into uh just a group of other families that were getting together for a bit of a barbecue.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_03: Now to participate in something like that is real special because he you know we didn't talk, we didn't talk work, we didn't talk about, you know, I don't think I mentioned Canada, um, but we were just we were just people just dads uh who loved our kids and wanted to s to spend uh a few afternoons uh together.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_03: We enjoyed each other's company and uh and stayed in contact.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_03: So to make those kind of connections, you know, you can be in a big beautiful resort and places around the world with you know everything's pristine and you know top quality XYZ.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but that those type of interactions uh are much more meaningful to me anyway.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_03: And Tobago offers that.
• 1:04:42
  Corie: Yeah, of course, of course.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and just the you know, we spend time up in Spayside and Parletuvier and just the little cabins up in the hills and and get to meet some other uh some other folks who live there.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_03: And those are those are special moments that stay and will keep keep drawing us back.
• 1:04:58
  Corie: And it's a cancel Netflix if I learn anything.
• 1:05:02
  Corie: I'm definitely home too much.
• 1:05:04
  Corie: So a year and a half here, no, you have a carnival experience.
• 1:05:06
  Corie: You always like to drink any street and so on now.
• 1:05:09
  Corie: You know what we're valuable to.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_03: So you you're out for carnival?
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'd like I'd like to say I've been here for a year and a half or two carnivals.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_03: Right, yeah.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_03: Also you experienced two carnivals.
• 1:05:18
  Corie: Yeah, I arrived just just before Carnival.
• 1:05:20
  Corie: So in your role, you could play mass and you could you could do all the things where you did for Carnival.
• 1:05:25
  Corie: Uh yeah, yeah, we uh embraced it, you know.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_03: Out of all that that same sense, if you're interested in culture, oh boy, you've come to the right place, right?
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_03: Because the I have to say, before coming, I uh you know, I I do your readings and your briefings and all the rest.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the carnival comes up.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's these two days of the year.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, that's that's great.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_03: I guess those two days will uh we'll have to find something to do.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but of course the months before you know, almost every night something happening and uh and you know, you arrive at the other side with.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_03: With your eyes wide open and uh and a lot of new experiences under your belt.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_03: But no, I yeah, try to do as much as you can.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_03: So whether it's the you know the pan the pan semis and the finals and the kings and queens, uh again, I I value mostly not not just being a spectator, but to go to go you know behind the stage and chat with some of the the designers and the participants just to hear their story and yeah and uh you know just to how just to hear about how they got from from where they were born to creating some of these marvels uh that are prancing on on stage and those are just those are fascinating stories.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know, do we get into you know to hear the Clipso down at Skinner Park down south?
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_03: And and and uh to get the skinner park.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_03: No, I mean again it's uh it's the real treasures that Trindad has to offer.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so it'd be uh you know, it'd be uh self-defeating to to not not embrace those.
• 1:07:05
  Corie: Yeah, that's self-defeating that's a good world I feel right now.
• 1:07:07
  Corie: That's exactly a good choice.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_03: But then uh Camboulet really made a mark too.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so we went to see it.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_03: And we're actually trying to work with with them to see if we can't uh uh bring them out uh to to Toronto to be able to share the story there.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's it's always tough, resources are always tough, but I they've got a real uh incredible story to share, and that a lot of people would love to hear.
• 1:07:33
  Corie: Just the history, yeah, the history that they bring together there.
• 1:07:35
  Corie: And I think there's something special about doing it that all the you know, yeah, absolutely, absolutely and the space that they do it too.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_03: I spoke to a few others, and uh you know witnessing the the production was was something that was uh uh that was wonderful.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but I spent a good amount of time also just looking at the crowd and and looking at the grounds in behind that maybe if you grew up here you might take it for granted.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_03: But for me, it's just uh dripping with richness, and at each little corner seemed to tell, be able to tell its own story.
• 1:08:05
  Corie: Yeah, that was my experience as well.
• 1:08:07
  Corie: I mean, I born and grew right here, born and grew in Port of Spain.
• 1:08:09
  Corie: But I guess I mean you do so much and you're so far removed from what it's like to be a child in Port of Spain.
• 1:08:15
  Corie: That when I see not just people coming out to look at it, but the community comes out, all the food places are open, all stars panel is open, boys and girls talking, and who wants to, you know, it's it reminds you of sometimes Trinidad gets it could get a little heavy in terms of Trinidad to be got in the news, but I think spaces like those revive me.
• 1:08:33
  Corie: You can see that it's still like you said, like like real people, real relationships.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe it's you know it's an opportunity to you peel back all of the superficial barriers and you and uh you come together with some things you that bring you together, you know, that shared interest in just in celebrating or in just in uh just being together, and you're it's a reminder that that uh you know political parties, uh your heritage, uh what where you grew up on the island, you know, you're all trineys and uh you all party like heck.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know he said we.
• 1:09:10
  Corie: No, but it was nice you got to uh to do uh Juvet for the last couple of years and uh so when you say do juvet, because I had for instance in your position, do juvet for me would be on one of those floats you know, you look down on people and you watch them do juvet.
• 1:09:24
  Corie: What is do juvet for you?
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's that that that doesn't sound too fun to me at that one, but uh no, we did when uh for the first year we went with Friends for the Road.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, which is a great group.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so you're on your road.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_03: We're on the road, yeah.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_03: And last year it was uh it was a unique one.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh said you know there's so many connections between Canada and and and Trinidad and uh so you have this really dynamic uh uh doctor, Dr.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_03: Dr.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_03: Raz, who who runs uh uh shelter for women experiencing violence in in Toronto and and has done many, many things, other things as well.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_03: There's uh she's also uh a real artist and has put together a theatrical production.
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um the group is called Sisters Calling.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so they performed at Napa last year, they're performing at uh Sapa in October this year, and it's a it's it's a super talented production.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's all bringing awareness about violence against women.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_03: But but Dr.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_03: Raz, in her uh in all of her wisdom, uh, you know, she felt she knows the power.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_03: She's a Trinity Canadian, right?
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_03: She she knows the power of Jouvet, and it's trying to harness that power uh but with a message and attach a message to it.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_03: So she put together a band uh um to uh to raise awareness about violence against women.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_03: So I joined that band and uh and you know, so we had our plaque placards out and uh we were on the road.
• 1:10:46
  Corie: Well you're playing juvet juvet, like for the is there another juve in the house.
• 1:10:55
  Corie: There's another juve, there's a juve bubbles and chocolates and stuff because juve, well you know from Cam Luria uh reenactment, as well as who was here last week, David, talking about where Calypso began.
• 1:11:05
  Corie: Uh maybe, maybe Krocrow.
• 1:11:08
  Corie: Maybe and but but it it was born out of protest.
• 1:11:12
  Corie: So one of the things that I miss about Juve and Monday Night Mass.
• 1:11:16
  Corie: I'm talking to you like you're born and growing.
• 1:11:18
  Corie: One of the things I miss about Monday Night Mass is that I don't know if protest is the right word, but it is there is uh awareness and shedding light on issues in society because that's what the the Midnight Rubber does, is very much who we are.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_03: No, I and I think it was that that's what drew me to this band and what the inspiration behind uh Dr.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_03: Raz's forming of of the band.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, you know, I wasn't so sure how it was going to how it was going to play on the on the road, because you know, people are doing their their own thing.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, dancing alongside with the with the with the signs and such, and uh what struck me is you know youngsters would come up, you know, they're in the middle of of uh really enjoying themselves, and they'd stop, okay, what's what's this all about?
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_03: They'd read the sign, and and a number of times they'd come and say, it'd say, hey, thank you for for doing this.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, because when I was 14, a young woman would say, When I was 14, blah blah blah blah blah blah.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_03: Or young man would say, actually, because yeah, my cousin, you know, this happened and that happened, and and it's on the road they're sharing these stories.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so I can imagine if if if strangers are willing to share these stories uh in you know, in that environment that there's a lot of, I'm sure there's a lot of stories to share.
• 1:12:29
  Corie: 100%.
• 1:12:30
  Corie: 100%.
• 1:12:30
  Corie: I'm keeping you here all day.
• 1:12:32
  Corie: Because I feel like we're missing an opportunity now, especially because we're in a world where they you find out about an issue now.
• 1:12:39
  Corie: You can Google it, you could go on TikTok, you could find out so much more about the issue in real time.
• 1:12:44
  Corie: So I feel like if there was a time when Juvia, at least when I was a child on TV, you would see the issue of the day being discussed, whether it's placards or characters or whatever.
• 1:12:53
  Corie: This is my habits, right, David?
• 1:12:55
  Corie: Monday Night Mass.
• 1:12:56
  Corie: You know where Havertz is, right?
• 1:12:57
  Corie: By Roxy, right?
• 1:12:59
  Corie: So the thing is like that was a zone where you would have the characters come out and play things that it was important.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and there's and there's a lot of power in uh in in in Juve and in mass uh and to harness that and to get back to its its roots, you know.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_03: So what are we doing next year?
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Corey.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of pressure.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if I could keep up with you.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_03: No, but but really to to use that energy to to drive home messages that uh that have a chance of making a difference, a little a little difference.
• 1:13:28
  Corie: But yeah, and I know that's important to you.
• 1:13:30
  Corie: Yeah, so whatever you're doing, we're doing it, right?
• 1:13:32
  Corie: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:13:33
  Corie: So I have to ask you, you said emissions have a timeline.
• 1:13:35
  Corie: How long you know how long you enter into it before?
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it there's always an asterisk, uh, you know, things think could change, but uh here at least until the end of next summer.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_03: In 2027.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_03: So so yeah, we played math last year and we'll uh it was a little bit at the last minute, uh, but uh you know, I really appreciated uh uh invitation for with the with the lost tribe and and we got to go across the stage and uh with with everyone else, and it was it was it was great, but but but next uh was that costume?
• 1:14:07
  Corie: I got a costume no this is like lost tribe, this is like dressed like lost tribe right now and he enjoyed it.
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was it was uh yeah, it was great for all of those reasons.
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I you know this this year, uh you know, I hope it won't be my last, but uh we'll have to put everything into it this year, so I'm not too sure what we'll do.
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_03: So we'll have to chat afterwards.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_03: All right, I'll wait here.
• 1:14:27
  Corie: Whatever you're doing, we went to it.
• 1:14:28
  Corie: Okay, yeah, we wait to.
• 1:14:30
  Corie: I was gonna end this interview by saying that we have the first non-trend bagodian guess on it, but I'm not sure.
• 1:14:35
  Corie: I'm not sure something something happens somewhere along the line that changes.
• 1:14:39
  Corie: So outside of playing mask next year, what what what what for you is the is the future of it?
• 1:14:44
  Corie: What what the machine?
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm not uh I'm not not too sure.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_03: You just want to make sure we find a band that uh, you know, again, that has a uh that has history to it, that it's got that's rich with culture.
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, you know, I I like going out for uh, you know, to be on the road, just to be on the road is nice, but if we if we can connect into um a deeper message and uh a deeper uh history and tradition, then then that's what uh what we're looking for this year.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:15:11
  Corie: All right, well we've a team here in us, right?
• 1:15:13
  Corie: At least David and Karen.
• 1:15:21
  Corie: But thank you very much.
• 1:15:21
  Corie: I appreciate this and appreciate all the time.
• 1:15:24
  Corie: My wife is going to be very happy about this maple star.
• 1:15:27
  Corie: I'm about to say that already.
• 1:15:29
  Corie: Ladies and gentlemen, well, before this redemption is we have somebody can thank you very much.