Latest / The iDesign Lab Podcast / The Art Market Bubble Just Popped — Fine Art Advisor Breck Kling on What's Still Worth Buying

Transcript

The Art Market Bubble Just Popped — Fine Art Advisor Breck Kling on What's Still Worth Buying · The iDesign Lab Podcast

0:00
Voice Over: This is iDesign Lab, a podcast where creativity and curiosity meet style and design.
0:06
Voice Over: Curator of interiors, furnishings, and lifestyles.
0:09
Voice Over: Hosted by Tiffany Woolley, an interior designer and a style enthusiast, along with her serial entrepreneur husband Scott.
0:17
Voice Over: iDesign Lab is your ultimate design podcast, where we explore the rich and vibrant world of design and its constant evolution in style and trends.
0:31
TIffany Woolley: Welcome to the iDesign Lab podcast.
0:34
TIffany Woolley: Today we are welcoming Breck Kling to our podcast.
0:40
TIffany Woolley: There's going to be a little noise in the background if anybody hears it.
0:43
TIffany Woolley: We have some new construction happening on the roof.
0:46
TIffany Woolley: But today's guest has a front row seat to the world of fine art, collecting, and some of the most important artists of our time.
0:54
TIffany Woolley: Breck Kling is a fine art consultant, acquisitions, and collection management specialist, and a longtime collector who helps people navigate the fascinating intersection of art, passion, and investment.
1:08
TIffany Woolley: From Palm Beach to Jackson Hole, Breck has spent decades helping collectors understand not just what art is worth, but why it matters.
1:17
TIffany Woolley: Welcome to the iDesign Lab Podcast.
1:20
TIffany Woolley: Thank you for joining us in this summertime here in South Florida.
1:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:25
TIffany Woolley: I think we should just start at the beginning and introduce yourself to the audience.
1:29
SPEAKER_03: How did you get involved in art?
1:32
SPEAKER_03: Career in art.
1:33
SPEAKER_03: So I mean I could go way back because for me it actually starts as a childhood thing.
1:36
TIffany Woolley: Okay.
1:37
SPEAKER_03: And it's literally, and I don't know if like by the way, stop me if I'm going too deep on any of these stories, but um, you know, I was I, you know, I I was fortunate to grow up in a family that had some success.
1:48
SPEAKER_03: My grandfather founded a big company.
1:51
SPEAKER_03: As a result of that, had some amazing art.
1:52
SPEAKER_03: I mean, Monet and Renoir and Picasso and Bonard and um, you know, Hans Hoffman and kind of et cetera, et cetera.
2:00
SPEAKER_03: And and I didn't understand that those things had value as a kid at all, but I was attracted to it.
2:06
SPEAKER_03: Like those visuals worked for me.
2:08
SPEAKER_03: Later in life, I learned that I was just completely visually oriented.
2:12
SPEAKER_03: That's how I process information.
2:13
SPEAKER_03: It's how I understand the world.
2:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
2:16
SPEAKER_03: So like I ended up becoming an art history major, undergrad at the University of Rochester.
2:20
SPEAKER_03: For me, that was a complete no-brainer.
2:22
SPEAKER_03: Like I could understand those narratives, that context made perfect sense for me.
2:26
SPEAKER_03: So to understand world history via those stories, the the visual stories worked.
2:32
SPEAKER_03: And so that took me ultimately to architecture.
2:35
SPEAKER_03: I became a you know a grad student at the University of Virginia studying architecture and and loved it.
2:40
SPEAKER_03: Architecture in the way, in the end, is about it's art and it's engineering, it's you know, it's construction.
2:46
TIffany Woolley: Intersection, yeah.
2:47
SPEAKER_03: Yes, the intersection, but it's and it, but at the most fundamental way, it's how we organize our world, it's how we understand our world, it's how rituals get formed, it's how we celebrate our life.
2:58
SPEAKER_03: So that organization made a ton of sense to me, and I love studying and I love studying the theory, but at the end of my uh studies, I didn't want to be an architect, ironically.
3:09
SPEAKER_03: And uh, I mean, as much as I respect the field and I have architects who I'm so in love with their work and I track it all the time, and I just didn't want to practice.
3:18
SPEAKER_03: I was more so being an entrepreneur.
3:20
SPEAKER_03: Um and like the uptrend is that entrepreneurial journey in my 20s and 30s um afforded me the opportunity to also collect art.
3:28
SPEAKER_03: So that led to me traveling the world to see and buy art that was about our moment in time.
3:35
SPEAKER_03: So more modern art.
3:37
SPEAKER_03: Well, contemporary, right?
3:38
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so art about this moment.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: So but question which uh trying to understand more of this.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: You're buying art.
3:46
SPEAKER_01: Are you buying it because you love what it looks like or because there's a value that you could resell it, it increases your net worth?
3:55
SPEAKER_01: What's the okay?
3:56
SPEAKER_03: So okay, so what's interesting about that is there's no question that if I buy if I bought things that was that I somehow was felt compelled to buy.
4:05
SPEAKER_03: So by the way, it's not necessarily about aesthetics, it's often about ideas.
4:09
SPEAKER_03: So so I think that a lot of times sometimes I don't like how museums display art because it's almost like you're only left to make an aesthetic or stylistic decision, not a contextual decision about why that might be hanging on the wall in the museum.
4:23
SPEAKER_03: Like when you study art history, what you realize is art that ends up being in our canon of history is about a moment in time.
4:29
SPEAKER_03: Like it helps us connect with a moment.
4:31
SPEAKER_03: So when I started that collecting journey, like I wanted to understand who was making me feel connected to our moment, like where we're living.
4:38
SPEAKER_03: And so that was really the context I approached it.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: And um like so history pieces, pieces that re that go with a moment in time.
4:47
SPEAKER_03: Our moment, meaning like contemporary, so made by contemporary artists, like living artists.
4:52
TIffany Woolley: Okay, yeah, people you could actually like meet, understand.
4:57
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
4:57
SPEAKER_03: I might be able to meet them, and if I did, I love doing that.
5:00
SPEAKER_03: Right.
5:00
SPEAKER_03: Like one of my favorite things in the world was to go to an artist studio and just listen and hear their process.
5:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: See, when I think of art, I always kind of go back of the artist or art that you hear about, you know, 200, 300, 400 years ago.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: You don't hear, at least from a normal perspective, of the artists that are today.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: Well, there's not as much conversation.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: Mike Rules.
5:25
SPEAKER_03: Oh, well, you have to be well, so right.
5:27
SPEAKER_03: So you have to, so you have to put yourself in that context.
5:30
SPEAKER_03: So then you do hear about it.
5:31
SPEAKER_03: Right.
5:32
SPEAKER_03: So like if you're if you became um, if you became like a collector and so you're going to art basel every year in Miami.
5:39
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
5:41
SPEAKER_03: You know, you're going to Switzerland.
5:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
5:43
SPEAKER_03: Um, you're you're they're connecting with an art dealer, an art advisor that's helping you.
5:47
SPEAKER_03: So in a way, in the end, it's a journey, it's a process.
5:50
SPEAKER_03: Like early on, I feel like I made a lot of aesthetic only decisions.
5:54
TIffany Woolley: So things which I would think that's how most people start in a way, right?
5:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and in a way, like it that it makes perfect sense.
6:01
SPEAKER_03: It's in a great way to start, right?
6:03
SPEAKER_03: But then I start, there's more and more layers and more and more complexity that ends up, you know, as you're doing it, you learn, and then you end up finding other ways that you're starting to be attracted to things.
6:13
SPEAKER_03: I mean, there was even a moment in time where if I was repelled by something, I'd be like, okay, stop and like really sit with this.
6:20
SPEAKER_03: And like, you mean because there's something happening here that you're actually having a visceral reaction to it.
6:24
SPEAKER_03: And so, what is that coming from?
6:26
SPEAKER_03: And oftentimes I'd end up loving those things because they pushed me.
6:30
SPEAKER_03: Like they evoked something within you.
6:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
6:33
SPEAKER_03: It like made me reach, you know, to understand it a little bit.
6:37
SPEAKER_03: And so, so it's really just that journey in a way, because I mean, I always like try to point out to people that like what's so I'm a like an idea-oriented person.
6:47
SPEAKER_03: Like, I love so it's got I love ideas.
6:50
SPEAKER_03: Like I love thinking about like what opens up like something in my mind that allows me to understand something differently.
6:55
SPEAKER_03: And art is really like the encapsulation of ideas, ideas that ultimately can have real value, but it's literally just the idea.
7:03
SPEAKER_03: Like it's not a machine that produces a car, it's not, you know, it's not making products, it's representing an idea, right?
7:10
SPEAKER_03: Like it's at its essence, and that's like a great, like, that's uniquely human, right?
7:15
SPEAKER_03: To be able to abstract something to the point of being intelligible in like a in that form.
7:22
SPEAKER_03: So, so that to me is ended up being a real, like really exciting.
7:26
SPEAKER_03: And um, but it's also challenging.
7:28
SPEAKER_03: Like you have to look, you have to look a lot and develop your eye.
7:32
TIffany Woolley: Um, I feel like I'm like, it's almost like the homologist, really, to art.
7:38
TIffany Woolley: I mean, you literally do train your eye to appreciate techniques, their histories or stories and their place in society.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: So listening to you, I feel like I'm missing out on a lot.
7:52
SPEAKER_01: You are.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: No, no, because I think we travel a lot.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: Like we just came back from Italy.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: You know, whenever we travel, we're always going through museums, we're always going and looking at art, like we're at the Vatican and and different places, and it's all like I just said, like a couple hundred years old.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: I don't think we really see or go look and appreciate contemporary contemporary.
8:17
TIffany Woolley: No, we don't.
8:18
TIffany Woolley: No, it's something that we should add to our list of the colours.
8:22
TIffany Woolley: So I think of contemporary.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: I say to myself, like, well, who are the contemporary artists?
8:26
SPEAKER_01: I think of Peter Max and I had a friendship with Ken Keely.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I don't know Ken Keely.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: I might recognize the work.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: Malcolm Forbes made him very popular.
8:38
SPEAKER_01: Years and years ago.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: He was a customer of uh of mine.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: He did uh he did these big pictures where it was like um uh like a magazine stand with all the magazines or a bookstore with all the books.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: That's it, cool.
8:53
SPEAKER_01: It became very, very popular.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I yes, I do know.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: And there were a lot of them out there.
8:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah and Malcolm Forbes was the one that bought a few of his pieces for very expensive numbers that elevated it.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: Elevated it.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: And he ended up doing a piece for me where in the bottom of it, he did a personalized kind of sketch having to do with a sh a company that I had and the logo to was like grocery stores that I had.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: So he did like a a custom sketch of the logo and whatnot, which we have hanging in our house.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: Nice.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: I wonder if it has any value.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: I've been having to like do a little research for you.
9:30
SPEAKER_03: Nothing had to do.
9:31
SPEAKER_03: That would be worthwhile.
9:32
TIffany Woolley: Well, I feel like that is like such the interesting thing of like where art and design intersect in a way too.
9:39
TIffany Woolley: And in some of our travels, when you're saying contemporary was where you kind of you know sparked your first interest.
9:47
TIffany Woolley: You know, one of the tour guides we had hired to walk with us, like in Versailles and what have you, and all these beautiful frescoes and all these paintings, he was like, think of it as the modern day Instagram.
9:59
TIffany Woolley: You know, this was how they told what was happening.
10:03
TIffany Woolley: Yeah, right.
10:04
SPEAKER_03: That was a distribution channel.
10:05
TIffany Woolley: Yeah, it was their distribution channel, which is yeah, like so fascinating to me that when you think of it like that through history anyway, and how inspiration was so localized or historical.
10:20
SPEAKER_03: Right, because the reach was that, right?
10:21
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
10:22
SPEAKER_03: So their reach was localized, and um, yeah, information traveled slowly.
10:26
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, so we live in a very different moment.
10:30
TIffany Woolley: Right, totally different moment.
10:31
TIffany Woolley: Everything is at light speed, everything is at light speed, and art, I feel like now is beyond obviously just a bronze or a carving.
10:42
TIffany Woolley: But it can be those things.
10:44
TIffany Woolley: Correct.
10:44
TIffany Woolley: Well, it is those things that are.
10:46
SPEAKER_03: No, right, no, but it it always is.
10:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
10:48
SPEAKER_03: Like it's it can be anything.
10:49
SPEAKER_03: And by the way, contemporary, like to make a distinction, which I feel like is sometimes important, maybe not for you all, but like contemporary is just like representing our moment.
10:58
SPEAKER_03: It's not a style.
10:59
TIffany Woolley: Right, which is so good to see.
11:01
TIffany Woolley: Like that could be I actually love that.
11:02
TIffany Woolley: Right.
11:03
SPEAKER_03: No, no, so it's like what the distinction we're making really is just like art being made today.
11:08
TIffany Woolley: Yes.
11:09
SPEAKER_03: So it could be anything, it could be someone like reinterpreting Renaissance paintings, it could be someone making loose site sculpture, it could be, you know, so it's just what's happening today.
11:18
TIffany Woolley: It's art, it's you know it's happening now, being created now.
11:22
SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking I was thinking a lot when I was first collecting like living artists.
11:26
SPEAKER_03: I wanted to know who is like my generation making art.
11:29
TIffany Woolley: Right.
11:30
SPEAKER_03: So and so where did that do those artists have have like real value in terms of like I'm filled with regret for the things I sold that have so much value now.
11:40
SPEAKER_03: I value like I mean, millions of dollars of like value that's been lost.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I always think that that the value of an artist is after they've passed away, it becomes that's not necessary.
11:52
SPEAKER_03: No, and by the way, the the market's so robust now.
11:54
SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
11:54
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think about just if you take the timeline, and I'm not I'm so bad about timeline.
11:59
SPEAKER_03: So I don't know when exactly Art Basel in Miami for the first one.
12:04
TIffany Woolley: It was um 2000s.
12:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like 2001 or something.
12:08
SPEAKER_03: 2000.
12:08
SPEAKER_03: 20 something years ago.
12:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
12:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so 26 or yeah.
12:12
SPEAKER_03: Like so, I feel like like the climate then, and I was like a young collector then, um, was and and it's almost like you kind of knew so much of the collector world back then, people that were going to the fairs.
12:26
SPEAKER_03: I mean, today, fast forward, I mean, almost everybody is considering art as an asset class.
12:31
SPEAKER_03: Like it's actually anyone with any wealth, like it's it literally isn't just a collectible, it's actually a potential asset class now.
12:38
SPEAKER_03: Correct.
12:39
SPEAKER_03: So it's the entire landscape has changed.
12:42
TIffany Woolley: And what do you think led to that change?
12:45
TIffany Woolley: Accessibility?
12:46
TIffany Woolley: Like, like what led to that a wealth of the city.
12:50
SPEAKER_03: Well, the wealth creation, I think, in this country, yeah, is all in the world, is is really unbelievable.
12:56
SPEAKER_03: So it kind of make the democratization of wealth and information for sure.
13:01
SPEAKER_03: People have access to more information.
13:02
SPEAKER_03: I think the art fairs have really done, I mean, art balls in Miami has really elevated art in South Florida.
13:08
SPEAKER_03: Totally.
13:08
SPEAKER_03: Like, no question.
13:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
13:09
SPEAKER_03: Like it becomes something that people want to go do.
13:11
SPEAKER_03: They want to go, even if they don't know what they're what's happening, they want to go and check it out.
13:16
SPEAKER_03: So people are getting exposed and just like inadvertently people are becoming collectors.
13:20
SPEAKER_03: Like, or you know, and then they're becoming more sophisticated.
13:22
SPEAKER_03: And it's just like that's the entree.
13:24
SPEAKER_03: It was harder to get an entree into it, I think, probably going back 30, 40, you know, 50 years ago.
13:29
SPEAKER_03: Totally.
13:30
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but that's not true today.
13:31
SPEAKER_03: Like it's very easy to find a way to access art um and learn.
13:36
SPEAKER_03: I think that I I always recommend going to art fairs, and it's one of the ways I started.
13:41
SPEAKER_03: So as an art, as an architect, uh, well, as a as a lover of architecture and studying architect and being interested in art, my first foray into it was buying art designed by or art made by architects.
13:55
SPEAKER_03: So, like there was an artist um or an architect, um uh Aldo Rossi, who had would would sell his drawings and his sketches.
14:03
SPEAKER_03: Another one, Todo Ando, a Japanese architect who's one of my all-time favorites.
14:08
SPEAKER_03: I have a ton of his like sketch.
14:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
14:12
TIffany Woolley: Just appreciate it.
14:13
SPEAKER_03: So he yeah, so he is so like I don't know if um like he so it also, by the way, when I discovered him was at a time when I was entering graduate school.
14:23
SPEAKER_03: And he he was reducing like like structure and experience and buildings to such an essential experience, but like so optimized for like like beauty and light and you know, experience with materials that I was just like I was just it was like a different world for me, like seeing his his view of architecture.
14:44
SPEAKER_03: And he's Japanese, so you know, there's such a refinement to the way that that culture approaches things.
14:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, really, it was very minimalist.
14:51
SPEAKER_03: So it was kind of this essential look at architecture, and so um, I don't know if you would necessarily love his work, but I mean, I think he's he's wonderful, he's won a Pritzker Prize.
15:00
SPEAKER_03: I mean, he's one of the all-time greats of our generation, um, you know, from an academic and uh you know professional perspective, but and it has and he's got buildings all across the world, so he's been able to build everywhere.
15:14
TIffany Woolley: Like an IMP or somebody of that type uh yeah.
15:17
SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh, just reminded me of something.
15:20
SPEAKER_03: I I met I Am Pay as a kid, and I should actually tell that story because that actually was formative for me.
15:26
SPEAKER_03: But um, I love IMP, especially as a person, but uh he's he's past, but I did love him as a person.
15:33
SPEAKER_03: Um so so for me, Ando helped me understand like what architecture could be and the experience with space.
15:42
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's why I fell in love with Ando.
15:44
SPEAKER_03: So I bought like so I found a dealer in New York.
15:47
SPEAKER_03: Max Protesh became a friend of mine, and I bought like drawings from that's so he was one of the only dealers that sold like the art of architects at the time.
15:58
TIffany Woolley: That's such a cool genre.
15:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it is cool.
16:00
SPEAKER_03: I still have a bunch of it.
16:02
TIffany Woolley: Even as a drafts person myself, I don't I don't ever want to dump them.
16:06
TIffany Woolley: I think they are so pretty.
16:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you think like Carl Lagerfield has all these sketches of people buy and like I mean, there's all this stuff out there.
16:14
SPEAKER_02: That's true.
16:14
SPEAKER_03: I mean, another example in the furniture world.
16:16
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you all know who Wendell Castle is.
16:19
SPEAKER_03: No.
16:20
SPEAKER_03: Do you know Wendell?
16:21
SPEAKER_03: So Wendell Castle is considered like one of kind of the fathers of the American sculptural um furniture movement.
16:27
SPEAKER_03: Okay, and so unique one-off pieces of furniture that are sculptural, that like literally like they function as furniture, but they are in fact sculpture.
16:36
SPEAKER_03: And they're often hand built, you know, interesting craft, I mean, world-class craftsmanship, um, incredible design.
16:43
SPEAKER_03: Um, so I got to know Wendell very well.
16:46
SPEAKER_03: And he's very well collected by people in Miami.
16:50
TIffany Woolley: Um Brad Pitt, probably.
16:51
TIffany Woolley: I think I've seen some of those.
16:53
SPEAKER_03: Maybe I wonder if Brad Pitt, um, who's the big development?
16:56
SPEAKER_03: Is it Lieberman, the big development family from Miami?
16:59
SPEAKER_03: Like they love they I've been to a party at one of their homes with Wendell in the past.
17:04
SPEAKER_03: Wendell's since passed, but there's a lot of collectors that you know love his work.
17:10
SPEAKER_03: And um well, check it out.
17:12
TIffany Woolley: I will definitely check it out.
17:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but that's an intersection of those.
17:16
TIffany Woolley: And there's a there's and I have such a deep appreciation for that intersection because as an interior designer who, like you mentioned, I knew from very young that this is what I wanted to do with my life.
17:29
TIffany Woolley: My dad was a yacht builder, so we always had an in-house interior design team through the years that I would pick fabrics with for throw pillows or help with the sconces or accessories.
17:41
TIffany Woolley: But when it came to wanting to go to college, I wanted like a four-year experience in a university, and none of the universities offered interior design at the time.
17:52
TIffany Woolley: And I was like, I wasn't ready to take on architecture at the time.
17:56
TIffany Woolley: So I have an art history major from Boston University.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: Oh, really?
18:01
TIffany Woolley: Yeah, with a minor in decorative arts, and it was more on the history of furniture, yeah, and furniture being art.
18:10
TIffany Woolley: So it was kind of my own precursor to where I am today.
18:14
TIffany Woolley: So I do have such an appreciation of where they intersect.
18:18
TIffany Woolley: And I feel like a really cool thing that the internet does provide is like there's now websites and sources, like even First Dibbs kind of satellite, does it where you can get some of these really special one-offs and you know, really be um in, you know, have something special in your house.
18:40
TIffany Woolley: Because one thing we try to talk about on the podcast a lot is in this world of everything mass-produced, quick, and like please set yourself apart, like you know, bring in the one-offs, you know.
18:53
TIffany Woolley: We wanna like some perspectives.
18:55
TIffany Woolley: Correct.
18:56
TIffany Woolley: Bring in the perspective.
18:58
TIffany Woolley: So I'm really excited about this podcast as I think that is such a good intersection.
19:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
19:04
SPEAKER_03: And I and I sin and I love design.
19:07
SPEAKER_03: So, you know, and I'm trying to think of some of the designers who I've met and and I have work.
19:12
SPEAKER_03: I mean, are you often with Ingomar, the German lighting designer?
19:16
SPEAKER_03: So I met him, have some Ingo Mar, you know, work.
19:19
SPEAKER_03: I just think I like his studio approach to, you know, design.
19:23
SPEAKER_03: So I was kind of turned down listening to the way he spoke about his practice.
19:27
SPEAKER_03: And um, and that to me is art.
19:29
SPEAKER_03: Every bit is, you know, as much as any painting on my wall.
19:33
SPEAKER_03: Right.
19:33
SPEAKER_03: I mean, they might be more produced, but they're not highly produced, they're limited.
19:37
SPEAKER_03: But um, you know, um, oh my gosh, I'm gonna draw a blank now.
19:41
SPEAKER_03: Uh I'm gonna have to come back to it.
19:43
SPEAKER_03: There's another Japanese artist who I love and a furniture designer that does more like limited stuff, very unique approach.
19:49
TIffany Woolley: So it's so interesting.
19:51
TIffany Woolley: So, where does your process start?
19:53
TIffany Woolley: So, you obviously you have a private collection and like obviously a creative part that this drives you.
20:00
TIffany Woolley: But where does your process start when you're working with a collector?
20:05
TIffany Woolley: Do you teach them?
20:06
TIffany Woolley: Is it for a new home or is it for their yacht?
20:09
TIffany Woolley: I mean, is there pieces people buy because they just have to have them and then they find the perfect place?
20:16
TIffany Woolley: Like, what's the process?
20:17
SPEAKER_01: Or or are you purchasing because you're helping decorate the house or finding pieces for the house?
20:22
SPEAKER_01: It's like alting.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: Or is it more for investing?
20:26
SPEAKER_03: Okay, well, well, one lesson that I've learned in this business in the in the fine art business is that that in the end, wall space matters and people collect find your space for this, you know, what they have available on their wall.
20:38
SPEAKER_03: Like so what you know, where do they need something?
20:40
SPEAKER_01: So most people are giving you a direction.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: I have this wall I want to fill.
20:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's very often the case.
20:47
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
20:48
SPEAKER_03: Um, I have many, many collectors that have filled warehouses also of our.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: So they fill they fill away.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: So that's uh to me, that sounds like that's an invest, those are investments.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
20:59
SPEAKER_03: They're buying things that they that they have to buy.
21:02
SPEAKER_03: They believe in them, they want to own them over time.
21:04
SPEAKER_03: Maybe they see them as something they can six their succession assets they can move on to their children, or you know, so there's a lot of different ways they look at it.
21:11
SPEAKER_03: There's also a compulsivity that can happen with our because it's it is something you can really fall in love with.
21:17
SPEAKER_03: And so, um, and and people with with capacity can go for it.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: What I have a hard time getting to grasp is is that you're buying an individual's buying all this art, and like you said, putting in a warehouse, how you're appreciating it.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like you're almost forgetting about it.
21:32
TIffany Woolley: Well, a warehouse at that level has become like a museum.
21:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like well now, like if you're back in Miami.
21:36
SPEAKER_03: Have you ever visited?
21:38
SPEAKER_03: You should visit it, and I would do it with you all if you want some time.
21:40
SPEAKER_03: Like go to the Rebel collection.
21:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
21:43
SPEAKER_03: Like it's literally become a museum.
21:46
SPEAKER_03: And and so I think it started more as storage at one point, and now it is it's Steve Robell.
21:51
SPEAKER_03: Um, uh well, Steve Robel was was he the founder of um uh studio 55?
21:57
SPEAKER_03: This is his brother, him and his and their and his.
22:00
SPEAKER_03: Wife and their family.
22:02
SPEAKER_03: And I and I'm drawing a blank on their names.
22:04
SPEAKER_03: I feel so bad.
22:05
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes sorry.
22:07
TIffany Woolley: No, I'm terrible at names.
22:08
TIffany Woolley: It's so funny you say that.
22:09
TIffany Woolley: Cause I can tell I can tell you what they were wearing when I met them, but I can't believe their names.
22:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, sorry.
22:15
SPEAKER_03: No, I I can blank, but but they're you know, one they're really nice people.
22:19
SPEAKER_03: And you know, I've met them briefly, like you know, shook hands with them, and but I love what they've done.
22:24
SPEAKER_03: And they have a great curator um in Miami.
22:27
SPEAKER_03: It's and so now they put on beautiful shows.
22:30
SPEAKER_03: And uh, but they have an extensive collection.
22:33
SPEAKER_03: They're very, I mean, it's they're they're effectively like one of the most important collectors in the United States, and they're just and they're always looking and finding young, emerging, interesting talent.
22:43
SPEAKER_03: Really?
22:44
SPEAKER_03: And they're fantastic at that.
22:45
SPEAKER_03: And so they're bringing things to the market, then they're displaying them in Miami often.
22:49
SPEAKER_03: They'll do beautiful things during Art Basel, Miami, so that people can come in and get exposed to these arts.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: So are they displaying them to sell them or just to show them off?
22:58
SPEAKER_03: No, I think that no, I think that it's um it's literally more of a love of art and the community and the supporting the community.
23:06
TIffany Woolley: And that's amazing.
23:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's not it's not a commercial operation.
23:10
SPEAKER_03: They certainly would trade things, I would believe, on occasion.
23:13
SPEAKER_03: I don't know that for sure, but I think they do trade in and out of things at times.
23:17
SPEAKER_03: But I think the bulk of it is like meant to be collected and and owned, you know.
23:22
SPEAKER_03: Amazing over time.
23:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's become a real interest.
23:24
SPEAKER_03: So is it in the Winwood area or where is the they were they and they've then they've since moved, and now I can't remember the area they moved to, which is now getting super hot, like because they're really good at picking locations and drawing a traffic.
23:37
SPEAKER_03: So um it's really fun to go to.
23:40
SPEAKER_03: And uh um, but Margali's Marty Margali's has a a warehouse down there, which is also now has a display aspect and a whole team of curators, and um uh uh Dela Cruz had a beautiful space, but I think that now that Rosa Dela Cruz passed, I hope I'm remembering that right.
24:01
SPEAKER_03: And and now she's giving the space, I believe, to the um ICA, which is right next door in Wynwood.
24:07
SPEAKER_03: So so there is a tradition in Miami of of doing like opening up those spaces, and people are doing it all over the place.
24:13
TIffany Woolley: Yeah, the galleries are popping up too.
24:16
TIffany Woolley: So when you're doing your your own due diligence on newer um artists and people have been coming, I mean, is it really just through like an art basel or through shows, or do people like seek you out and be like, come and you know, give a review?
24:34
SPEAKER_03: Or I've had like friends ask me to kind of give them a download on you know things that I'm seeing.
24:39
SPEAKER_03: And there was a point in time when I was far more active at looking at emerging art than I am now.
24:43
SPEAKER_03: I feel like now I'm looking more at collectible art and like trying to meet specific needs for my clients.
24:48
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
24:48
SPEAKER_03: So it's it's a little bit not as broad as it was.
24:52
SPEAKER_03: Um but so I I meant I meant to make this point earlier.
24:56
SPEAKER_03: So one of the things that one of the first things I ever did early after collecting, like, you know, kind of architects art, I got introduced to a gallery in um Chicago.
25:05
SPEAKER_03: I was living in Chicago at the time.
25:08
SPEAKER_03: Got to know the owner of the gallery very well, and we ended up making a trip to Art Basel, Switzerland one summer.
25:13
SPEAKER_03: What a fun and and his way he he posed it to me is he's like, listen, Breck, like we're gonna take a couple days, and this is like almost seeing what's the art world like in a room.
25:23
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's it's many, many rooms and it's huge, but it's like this is like in a box, you know, you get to go and you get to really just see and experience what is like kind of the current kind of collectible art world.
25:35
SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, it's it's the top galleries on the planet, you know, it's like they're bringing out stuff to show.
25:42
SPEAKER_03: It's um it's almost every collector, you know, substantial collector in the world is showing up.
25:47
SPEAKER_03: Museums are showing up.
25:48
SPEAKER_03: So this is a place to get exposure.
25:50
SPEAKER_03: It's almost like you get to fly somewhere and go and then just like and this is Switzerland.
25:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, well, and I think that then the surrogate for that would be Miami.
25:58
TIffany Woolley: Miami.
25:58
TIffany Woolley: I think that's where it started.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, so you have my Art Basel, Miami, and then Switzerland.
26:03
SPEAKER_03: Are there any other big shows or freeze conferences or yeah, Freeze in London, the Armory Show in New York?
26:12
SPEAKER_03: Um, there's there's actually there's a handful, and at some point, if you want, I can send you a list of things which are worth checking out.
26:19
SPEAKER_03: But since you're here, like it's worth going to Art Basel, Miami.
26:24
SPEAKER_03: And um, and as part of that, going to Art Miami is another good view for for what's happening in a secondary market.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: So um it's does it change every year?
26:35
SPEAKER_01: Does it is it that big of a difference in change in what you're seeing?
26:39
SPEAKER_03: There are bringing new things.
26:41
SPEAKER_03: There's always new things to see, always.
26:43
SPEAKER_03: And and even if it's even if it's its artists that you're what you that you're that you're um you know well, there's still things showing up that that are and you know, something special or interesting or something that so it's um it's like it's it's a visual education.
26:59
SPEAKER_03: You like to go and walk around.
27:01
SPEAKER_03: I mean the problem is it gets quite busy now, right?
27:04
SPEAKER_03: It's definitely like a yeah, it's a to-do.
27:07
TIffany Woolley: It's a yeah, it's an event.
27:08
SPEAKER_03: And people dress up and yeah.
27:10
TIffany Woolley: Uh-huh.
27:11
TIffany Woolley: It's definitely an outing.
27:12
TIffany Woolley: It's a hot spot.
27:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
27:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
27:16
TIffany Woolley: It's I think it's so special that it's here though, and Miami got to become the hub for that.
27:21
SPEAKER_03: I think it's really meaningful that that happened for Miami.
27:23
SPEAKER_03: It does.
27:24
SPEAKER_03: I'm really happy for Miami.
27:26
SPEAKER_03: And I, you know, I've met and worked with Norman Brayman, who's one of the best collectors in the country.
27:31
SPEAKER_03: Norman was instrumental in bringing our boss here.
27:34
SPEAKER_03: And that was formative to Miami.
27:36
SPEAKER_03: It's formative to, I mean, that whole culture community down there.
27:40
SPEAKER_03: Um, it's had a big impact.
27:42
TIffany Woolley: Well, he was like the big impact for Miami too.
27:46
TIffany Woolley: And he is a collector.
27:47
TIffany Woolley: I happened to meet him one time in Aspen.
27:50
TIffany Woolley: My parents were looking at a piece of art and he was there too.
27:55
TIffany Woolley: So, and they introduced us since we were both from Florida, and that was like a memory, you know, that he's a really, really nice person.
28:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:04
SPEAKER_03: Really good person.
28:05
TIffany Woolley: So I didn't realize he was so instrumental in bringing Basel to Miami, but it makes sense.
28:11
SPEAKER_03: He's among the people.
28:11
SPEAKER_03: There was, I think, a group of people that worked really hard to make that happen.
28:15
SPEAKER_03: And I think they I hope they're really proud of what they did for Miami because it's it's a big engine.
28:21
TIffany Woolley: So after like now that there's like Art Basel being so important now, like obviously we live in Palm Beach County.
28:28
TIffany Woolley: Palm Beach does like a big art, you know, show.
28:32
TIffany Woolley: Art Palm Beach in the I think it's in the fall, like after Christmas time.
28:37
TIffany Woolley: Yeah.
28:38
TIffany Woolley: So are those big important avenues to go to as well?
28:43
TIffany Woolley: I mean, I definitely know they bring community together, but I always wonder are people really going and focusing on the art, or are they just going and being a part of the event?
28:54
SPEAKER_03: It's not so what?
28:55
SPEAKER_03: So I think that that is almost more of a local expression.
28:58
SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
28:59
SPEAKER_03: So it's dealers from around the US, typically, some international dealers show up and getting exposure to like a Palm Beach County audience.
29:07
SPEAKER_03: Right.
29:08
SPEAKER_03: Whereas Miami's drawing people from every corner of the planet.
29:11
TIffany Woolley: Correct.
29:11
SPEAKER_03: So the scale of Miami and its reach feel very, very different to me.
29:15
SPEAKER_03: The quality of work that ends up in Miami is at a different level.
29:19
SPEAKER_03: So Palm Beach doesn't keep up, but that's okay.
29:22
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's a smaller fair.
29:23
SPEAKER_03: I go.
29:24
SPEAKER_03: Right.
29:24
SPEAKER_03: I go every year and I and I check it out and I say hi, you know, check out people, I see what they're showing, but it's not the same thing.
29:30
TIffany Woolley: I understand.
29:31
TIffany Woolley: Yeah.
29:31
TIffany Woolley: Yeah.
29:31
TIffany Woolley: It's a smaller expression.
29:33
TIffany Woolley: Yeah.
29:33
SPEAKER_03: I don't want anyone to get mad at you.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: When you go to these shows, are you going there for looking for clients or looking just to see what's new?
29:43
SPEAKER_01: Or they're on a mission because you're looking for something.
29:46
SPEAKER_03: Well, you guess you're always looking right to see like what pops up that you know that you're excited about that, you know, that you think someone you know you'd love to share with a with a collector.
29:55
SPEAKER_03: So that's just that kind of you know reconnaissance, like always like kind of keeping taps of who's showing what.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: That's so you're always thinking about clients who may be interested in something that you might find.
30:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, or if yeah, and or if there's something that I just think is like is really special, then I'll be like, hey, you know, they might not be looking for it, but I'll be like, this I think is a really special thing, and you know, I'd like you to consider it, or you know, would you, you know, so that kind of thing happens too.
30:20
SPEAKER_03: But but then there's also just people that are dealers and just reconnecting and talking and finding out what they're working on and what they're excited about.
30:28
SPEAKER_03: And so there's that aspect to it.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: So what makes something special?
30:32
SPEAKER_01: Is it just personal opinion?
30:34
SPEAKER_01: Or I mean you think of like a baseball card, like the Roger Maris, the year he did his 51 home run.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: So that's like a collect that what's that?
30:44
SPEAKER_01: Do you collect that?
30:45
SPEAKER_01: No, but I've always kind of like been interested and always found it fascinating that people are.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like I've got a lot of friends that have been that are more professional athletes, and I've heard the stories.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: I've got a really good friend that we have a tequila company with.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: Whenever he signs his name, he always puts the person's name on it.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: Because to get his autograph with just his autograph is very rare.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: So he knows that those are rare balls to get.
31:14
SPEAKER_03: That's interesting.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: But putting someone like signing it to Scott.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: It's not the same thing.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: It's not well, it's great for it's great for Scott because I have personal.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: Personal, but there's real no value because selling it.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:28
SPEAKER_03: That's interesting.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: I was very friendly with Pete Rose.
31:30
SPEAKER_01: I helped Pete with a radio show he had many years ago.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: He was my neighbor across the street.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: And he would never sign anything.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: Everything was stamped.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: He always gave out cards that were stamped.
31:43
SPEAKER_02: That's interesting.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: Because he knew that his signature meant something.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: The wet ink.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: And he would never do it just his his like his Pete Rose.
31:53
SPEAKER_01: It would be two, what you name?
31:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:56
SPEAKER_03: That's interesting.
31:57
SPEAKER_03: That makes a lot of sense.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, I have a great funny story.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: It's years ago I have a friend, and this is modern art, I I would tend to think.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: Sold a piano, sold a contemporary.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: Contemporary.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, contemporary.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: He sold a piano to Peter Max.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: Peter Max wrote him a check, but he doodled all over the whole check.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: Like put a whole like mural like on the on the little check.
32:23
TIffany Woolley: That's cool.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: My friend person I knew didn't cash the check.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
32:29
SPEAKER_03: He probably knew that he wasn't going to cash it.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: He realized that afterwards because he framed it.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's great.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: That's a great story.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: And and we're talking like I think it was like a$14,000,$15,000 check.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: That's hilarious.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: So I, you know, I think of how many times did he have it?
32:45
SPEAKER_01: Did he ever trade it, by the way?
32:47
SPEAKER_01: Did he trade it?
32:48
SPEAKER_01: I don't know because I lost touch with him.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: But I think of like, how many times has Peter Max probably done that in his life?
32:55
TIffany Woolley: He has got a lot of free stuff all over.
32:57
SPEAKER_03: All the checks.
32:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
33:00
SPEAKER_03: I love that.
33:01
SPEAKER_03: He doesn't like the digital world because he can't doodle on it.
33:04
SPEAKER_03: Right.
33:05
SPEAKER_03: Venmo doesn't work with it.
33:06
TIffany Woolley: Yeah, Venmo doesn't work good with doodles.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: No, and it's like the Ken Keeley we have in our house where he wrote this whole drew this whole additional thing on the painting.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: But it's probably not any, I think of it, it's probably not much value to anyone else because it's really just to me or my family.
33:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: Like the the appreciation for that.
33:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:27
SPEAKER_03: No, that's interesting.
33:28
SPEAKER_03: That's very interesting.
33:29
SPEAKER_03: Um, well, you're so your like your original question was so um how how to like assess value?
33:36
SPEAKER_03: Is that what you're asking?
33:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
33:38
SPEAKER_03: Um, or how do I know something is special?
33:40
TIffany Woolley: Well, I feel like it's almost like the stock market in a way.
33:42
TIffany Woolley: I mean, like you're brokering, you're getting a lot of people.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: But more so the stock, but the stock market is all based off of what's trading and how much is trading.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, by the way, you have that too, though.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but when you're looking at a piece of well, uh a little bit.
33:55
SPEAKER_01: Well, based off of that much is trading of that particular artist, is what you is that what you mean?
33:59
SPEAKER_03: Right.
33:59
SPEAKER_03: So if if that artist is is trading at auction and there's good auction records, that helps.
34:05
SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
34:06
SPEAKER_03: So I can imagine that so and there's a lot of artists that don't have great auction records, or or they don't have good records for a specific kind of you know version of their work.
34:14
SPEAKER_03: And but if there is, that's a very good you know, kind of metric.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: So you make me think about like, you know, there's trading in the stock market, and uh what what's it what's it called?
34:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh um when someone you tell someone insider trading.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: Insider trading.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: I mean in the art world, insider trading.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: Is there, you know, where hey, I'm an artist, and if you buy my painting for extraordinary value, my worth is gonna go up and I'll work a deal with you.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, does any of that ever happen in the art world?
34:48
SPEAKER_03: Or I'm not sure like like at if it happens exactly at that level, but like the point is is that people can absolutely like they're market makers, there's dealers who are market makers, they control the inventory, they constrain what shows up at market, right?
35:02
SPEAKER_03: They they set the prices, you know.
35:04
SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's so there's a so it is an in like in a certain way it's an insider's game, right?
35:10
SPEAKER_03: Right.
35:10
SPEAKER_03: And people with capital can have a huge influence uh on something.
35:14
SPEAKER_03: I mean, people can yeah, be well supporting an artist and supported that auction, and those auction records are going up.
35:19
SPEAKER_03: And so there's things like that, like like kind of influences, I don't want to say manipulations, but influences that can help drive prices.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: So do some of those influencers also associate to like you mentioned, Brad Pitt, and I mentioned um Malcolm Forbes, you know, so a really interesting person starts buying an individual's art.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: Does that change the market for it?
35:45
SPEAKER_03: Oh, it definitely can.
35:46
SPEAKER_03: Usually you need to have um you need it it's so there's like these kind of market makers in the art world.
35:53
SPEAKER_03: So there's there's art dealers and there's and there's definitely like tiers of art dealers, like there's you know, kind of top, top, top art dealers, and you know, um really yeah, oh yeah.
36:03
SPEAKER_03: There's curators that that also have different kind of influence notoriety at any given moment in time.
36:09
SPEAKER_03: There's institutions and museums, right?
36:11
SPEAKER_03: I mean, the rebel would also fall into that, like there are collectors and an institution, right?
36:16
SPEAKER_03: Um, and then you have collectors, and all of those things work in concert to drive price, right?
36:22
SPEAKER_03: Like definitely, and there's people that are understanding things that are that are coming or or moves that galleries are gonna make before most people realize it, and so they can get kind of a jump on trying to grab inventory or you know, that stuff is definitely happening, right?
36:38
SPEAKER_01: So in the art market, like a stock, you buy a stock and two days later it depreciates that it's gone down.
36:47
SPEAKER_01: Does that happen dramatically with art?
36:50
SPEAKER_01: Is there the chance that okay?
36:52
SPEAKER_01: I bought a beautiful piece at a great value.
36:55
SPEAKER_01: Can it go down in price?
36:56
SPEAKER_03: Or oh, it can.
36:58
SPEAKER_03: Really?
36:59
SPEAKER_03: Oh, definitely.
37:00
SPEAKER_03: I mean, tastes change.
37:02
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
37:02
SPEAKER_03: Like we just came out of a moment.
37:04
SPEAKER_03: I actually think it's changing right now.
37:05
SPEAKER_03: Like old masters were just like people weren't interested.
37:08
TIffany Woolley: But not really.
37:09
SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, and and that's starting to change right now.
37:11
SPEAKER_03: Like, and so those sentiments, that public sentiment changes all the time, and where the money's going.
37:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
37:17
TIffany Woolley: That's why it's a heirloom investment, you know, generational asset.
37:23
TIffany Woolley: So, why do you think that is about the old masters in particular?
37:28
SPEAKER_03: Um, it feels like, well, I think that there's more like retrospectives showing up or shows that are showing up that are that are um kind of bringing attention back to like the importance.
37:38
TIffany Woolley: Does Basel highlight anything like that?
37:40
TIffany Woolley: I always think of Basel more contemporary, but oh no, it's no, there's no, there's there's a lot there.
37:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
37:47
SPEAKER_03: I mean, there is like a more of an old masters-centered art fair.
37:51
SPEAKER_03: So there's there's a better art fair for it.
37:54
SPEAKER_03: Um we are like in it right now.
37:59
SPEAKER_03: They're working.
38:00
SPEAKER_03: Um, but there's but there's also um, I mean, there's great impressionist work that would be available at our bossel.
38:07
SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, it's probably more modern.
38:10
SPEAKER_03: So modern, like kind of Picasso Miro, you know, call it like those, yeah, like that kind of moment.
38:16
SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
38:17
SPEAKER_03: Um and uh so it's probably more heavy in that, and then you know, too contemporary, but but there's still you'll still find you know, dealers who are showing amazing like old masters or earlier work.
38:31
TIffany Woolley: So I was listening to a podcast this morning and they were talking about how some art markets are struggling because so there's so much fake out there.
38:46
TIffany Woolley: Am I saying that right now?
38:47
TIffany Woolley: Yeah, no, there's how I mean it obviously that's fake in terms of like they're reasonable.
38:54
SPEAKER_03: Forgeries, yeah.
38:56
SPEAKER_03: It happens and and and like and it's there's many times when things have been put in front of me and you that it's just like you're just kind of like something doesn't it doesn't feel right, you know, it doesn't it's the narrative doesn't work.
39:10
SPEAKER_03: So I mean you really want to attach like that's you know that the term provenance, so really understanding a history of a piece and being able to track it, like you know, what was the original art dealer, you know, who who who collected it?
39:20
SPEAKER_03: Where has it been exhibited?
39:22
SPEAKER_03: You know, kind of like tracking.
39:24
SPEAKER_01: You know, does most art have that kind of history or does there's barcodes now and stuff on everything?
39:31
TIffany Woolley: Like, I mean, is everything like of a QR code on the back nowadays?
39:35
SPEAKER_03: Or like is there a tracking system for there's all these different things happening around like for example, blockchain and using blockchain as a way to track provenance?
39:45
SPEAKER_03: So those things are happening, but but usually it's it's attached like like literally as a narrative that you can then reference, you know.
39:53
SPEAKER_03: You can like you can track it back and find sources.
39:55
SPEAKER_03: But how are you tracking it?
39:57
SPEAKER_03: Is it researching yeah?
40:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like going through like catalog resones and trying to find you know, exhibition catalogs.
40:05
SPEAKER_03: It's like going through ancestry trying to see ancestry, it's the ancestry search.
40:10
SPEAKER_03: Really?
40:11
SPEAKER_03: And there's and there's people that are exceptional at doing that.
40:13
SPEAKER_03: And um and they'll be able to track who different buyers were and who the sellers were.
40:18
SPEAKER_03: Well, it's almost always attached, like you know, some reference.
40:21
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes it will say private collection, like Vienna, private, you know.
40:25
SPEAKER_03: Right.
40:25
SPEAKER_03: Um, and sometimes you can kind of ascertain who that was, but other times you you're just looking for like the important clues to like that that validate that this is the object that was shown in you know Paris in 1955.
40:40
SPEAKER_03: Oh something, yeah.
40:42
SPEAKER_03: Versus, you know, you know, a fake.
40:45
SPEAKER_03: And um then there, by the way, there's now forensic um uh work that's done that's looking, I mean, it's down to the point of understanding like pigments that existed back then, yeah, versus today, right?
40:58
SPEAKER_03: Um, and material studies.
41:00
SPEAKER_03: And so there, so if it comes to that, there's that option.
41:03
SPEAKER_03: That's a little frightening when it moves into that realm where you're trying to diagnose, you know, do a diagnosis to that level.
41:10
SPEAKER_03: Um, but typically you want to, and and where's by the way, something coming from?
41:15
SPEAKER_03: You know, like is what do you mean by that?
41:16
SPEAKER_03: Where's so is the person credible?
41:19
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
41:19
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
41:20
SPEAKER_03: Like is it coming?
41:21
TIffany Woolley: That's where your trust and your industry is so important.
41:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
41:25
SPEAKER_03: Like is it Hauser and Wirth gallery, great gallery in New York that's presenting this to you?
41:30
SPEAKER_03: Or is it some guy that's telling you a story about his mother finding it and her be grind?
41:34
SPEAKER_02: Right.
41:34
SPEAKER_03: You know?
41:36
SPEAKER_03: But there must be a few of those that happen.
41:38
SPEAKER_03: They're real.
41:39
SPEAKER_03: And they are real sometimes, yeah.
41:41
TIffany Woolley: And do contemporary artists have that same problem?
41:45
TIffany Woolley: I would think no, right?
41:47
SPEAKER_03: No, but everyone's doing a really good job.
41:49
SPEAKER_03: I think more and more is being really diligent about cataloging their work.
41:53
SPEAKER_03: Um, so that you can you can track that back.
41:56
SPEAKER_03: Um it's yeah, so that gets it gets harder, I guess, you know, the longer.
42:01
TIffany Woolley: It's funny, when I first started my business, my interior design business, you know, the walls were all blank and empty.
42:08
TIffany Woolley: And, you know, I had a girl that had hired, and she was living in South Beach, and she was like, I know all these young artists, like they'll they'll come and put it up on the wall for, you know, for free, you know, just for exposure.
42:22
TIffany Woolley: And I still to this day have like the manila folder with everything.
42:25
TIffany Woolley: And every time one of them wanted to come take it, the business was growing successfully and doing well.
42:30
TIffany Woolley: And I was like, Well, how much do you want for it?
42:32
TIffany Woolley: I'll buy it.
42:33
TIffany Woolley: So I over time ended up buying everything that, but I don't know what what any of it really is.
42:40
TIffany Woolley: It's just, but I ended up loving it and it was a part of my growth and my success.
42:45
TIffany Woolley: And I felt like they all individually brought me good luck.
42:50
TIffany Woolley: And some of them I mean, not of yeah, I might not have chosen on my own.
42:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:55
TIffany Woolley: And I look at them all every day now and I notice different things that kind of have new meaning.
43:01
TIffany Woolley: Like one has three bugs on it, like there's three ants on it.
43:05
TIffany Woolley: And I'm like, oh, I ended up having three children.
43:08
TIffany Woolley: Like they just all have these little different resonance to me.
43:11
TIffany Woolley: But it's like, how do you know if those are even?
43:13
TIffany Woolley: Like, where do you begin?
43:14
TIffany Woolley: Is there like an art database with artists?
43:18
SPEAKER_03: I think you literally just start doing a search on the artist and find out.
43:21
SPEAKER_03: I mean, what you want to know is like where is, you know, like one of these artists, where has she been showing, you know, like who who's representing her?
43:28
SPEAKER_03: Has she been in any exhibitions?
43:29
SPEAKER_03: And by the way, I would reach out to her.
43:31
TIffany Woolley: Well, I know.
43:32
TIffany Woolley: I have I do have the minela folder somewhere with all the like everybody's business card.
43:37
TIffany Woolley: I mean, this was back literally in 2000, literally like 1999.
43:41
TIffany Woolley: Yeah.
43:42
TIffany Woolley: So before any sophisticated internet, you know.
43:46
TIffany Woolley: Yeah.
43:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:47
SPEAKER_03: There was no way.
43:48
SPEAKER_03: Well, but if but if she's still producing, yeah.
43:51
SPEAKER_03: Then then then she has an active career, then she's she'll jump for the chance to communicate with you.
43:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:56
SPEAKER_03: And like let you know everything she's done.
43:58
SPEAKER_03: And this does
44:00
TIffany Woolley: Definitely like probably six different artists.
44:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
44:03
SPEAKER_03: Well, I think that that, you know, that's a good example because um I think that there's a lot of ways to buy art.
44:09
SPEAKER_03: And like, and there's a lot of people making art, and there's a lot of local artists that need so need to be supportive and should be supported.
44:16
SPEAKER_03: Now they might not be like, like I often think about like kind of the collectible art world, and the art world is definitely an exclusive place.
44:23
SPEAKER_03: Like it's letting it's got gatekeepers and it's letting artists in, and it's not letting others in.
44:28
SPEAKER_03: And it's interesting.
44:29
SPEAKER_03: It's not for that's an interesting comment.
44:31
SPEAKER_03: Like there's all kinds of luck at play, you know, contacts, you know, like moment in time, like synchronicity.
44:39
SPEAKER_03: So it's not perfect, but it is designed to vet and bring out like compelling work.
44:46
SPEAKER_03: And so then that work might end up in museums and curated and collected, and then all of a sudden it has value.
44:51
SPEAKER_03: Whereas the person next door that was in the next studio made beautiful work that was really meaningful, but just didn't quite attract, you know, the right kind of attention at the right moment.
45:01
SPEAKER_03: And then so they're still making wonderful things that might be super meaningful, but they didn't get the benefit of all that intellectual capital helping them.
45:08
SPEAKER_01: So fascinating.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: So, how important is it?
45:11
SPEAKER_01: So fascinating.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how important is it to buy an original?
45:16
SPEAKER_01: So, and I and what I mean by that is it's gotta be more than 15 years ago, Tiffany and I went to it was in a tent that Yoko Ono was selling that she and John Lennon had done.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: We bought two pieces there.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: One was one of 10.
45:34
SPEAKER_01: We had, I think, number eight of the 10, and the other was I forget it had much more.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: It was like one of maybe 50.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: And we bought one.
45:44
SPEAKER_01: Do those have any value?
45:46
SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay, nice.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: Like it's like I think of what with the word lithograph.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: Is that is that correct?
45:51
SPEAKER_01: Is that what lithograph is that mean a a remake of the original?
45:54
SPEAKER_03: But if it's like an addition, right?
45:55
SPEAKER_03: So addition basically is what you're talking about.
45:57
SPEAKER_03: So there's some scarcity attached to it.
45:59
SPEAKER_03: Whatever the method is of reproducing it, you know, it's like one of ten, it's one of a hundred.
46:03
SPEAKER_01: One was like a charcoal, like pencil drawn, big um It's an Eiffel Tower.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: Eiffel Tower.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: And and John Lennon had hand drawn it.
46:13
SPEAKER_01: Gotta be four feet high.
46:15
SPEAKER_01: And then he self drew himself and her in front of the Eiffel Tower.
46:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: There were only 10 that they made copies of.
46:25
SPEAKER_01: We bought it was number one.
46:27
SPEAKER_01: That sounds cool to me.
46:28
unknown: Yeah.
46:29
SPEAKER_01: But I but I say to myself, but it's not the original, you know, afterwards, and we paid a good but it's still there's scarcity.
46:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
46:36
SPEAKER_01: There's 10.
46:37
SPEAKER_01: So there's value in that.
46:38
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
46:38
SPEAKER_03: I mean, obviously, scare value is attached to scarcity.
46:41
SPEAKER_03: Right.
46:41
SPEAKER_03: It's true.
46:42
SPEAKER_03: If they had printed posters, like it might have some value if they did a run of 300 posters and now they're not doing it anymore.
46:48
SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
46:48
SPEAKER_03: Like it could still have value if you have one of the good posters.
46:51
TIffany Woolley: Right.
46:52
SPEAKER_03: So, like anywhere where there's um some scary.
46:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: You know, I a family friends, um Marvin Shankan was the founder of The Wine Spectator.
47:02
SPEAKER_01: And then he also did Cigar Fish Renato.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
47:06
SPEAKER_01: He was a really good friend of my parents, and and I had done a television deal with him years ago.
47:11
SPEAKER_01: And in New York City, in his office, he had a room, big room, with all these drawers.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: And every drawer had two or three posters, but they were like, I'm gonna say European type of like like movie posters, but like I know you mean they had like a European flare too, like French or yeah, and he had this massive collection of these.
47:35
TIffany Woolley: Was that his own personal personal collection that he had?
47:38
SPEAKER_03: By the way, those things like so they're produced at a moment in time, so they're not reproduced.
47:41
SPEAKER_03: Like, so if you have vintage, yeah, you know, like that.
47:45
SPEAKER_01: He was so proud of these, yeah, and then the way in which like the mahogany.
47:51
SPEAKER_03: Flat files.
47:52
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, mahogany beautiful, yeah, beautiful room that's a real archive that he wins, yes, flouring like that.
47:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's like so.
47:58
SPEAKER_03: That's potentially like really meaningful.
48:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that's that's great.
48:02
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I have a collector, a project I worked on last year.
48:06
SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, a great guy, he's a good friend, but his passion, like absolute passion, is art associated with the grateful dead.
48:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
48:16
SPEAKER_03: And so, and he and like and and he's he has means.
48:20
SPEAKER_03: So I'll like show him something.
48:21
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I'll be like, please, like this is an amazing painting.
48:24
SPEAKER_03: Like, please buy this and just put it aside and just like give it five years because this is like I'll beg no no no, no.
48:32
SPEAKER_03: I'm talking about like I'll have something I want him to buy.
48:34
SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay.
48:35
SPEAKER_03: Like, just like you know, just and and then and he'll just be like, that's ugly, I hate it, you know.
48:40
SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't, yeah.
48:41
SPEAKER_03: He doesn't get it, yeah.
48:42
SPEAKER_03: But uh, but he loves like the Grateful Dead work, which by the way, I completely respect his approach.
48:49
SPEAKER_03: And then and then so we ended up going kind of on a journey and you know, learning about that genre, but that's not like been in my repertoire.
48:58
SPEAKER_03: So as much as I was a you know, high school or a college kid and went to dead shows, like I but I wasn't like, you know, so um, but it was uh but it was fascinating, like ended up learning so much about I mean poster art, right?
49:12
SPEAKER_03: Um, limited poster art, original artwork for those posters, like in the Hid Ashbury days.
49:17
SPEAKER_03: And like, so we just ended up like I mean it was quite a journey, but we ended up coming across some treasures, like in that space, like absolute treasures.
49:25
SPEAKER_03: Wow, yeah.
49:26
SPEAKER_03: When I talk to people that are deadheads today, they're like, Whoa, you like he owns that?
49:31
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
49:31
SPEAKER_03: He owns that.
49:32
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, yeah.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: And they're like, Yeah, we have a we have a friend that probably would he's pretty well off.
49:39
SPEAKER_01: He would love dead stuff because that's all he talks about.
49:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
49:43
SPEAKER_03: So this so like what's so by the way, that's the other part of art, right?
49:46
SPEAKER_03: What's what what do you where do your passions lie?
49:48
SPEAKER_03: Right.
49:48
SPEAKER_03: Like what gets you turned on?
49:49
SPEAKER_03: Because I think art at its best is a journey, like collecting art.
49:53
SPEAKER_03: Like it's a process.
49:54
SPEAKER_03: And by the way, as couples, like I think it's a wonderful shared journey.
49:58
TIffany Woolley: It is for a couple, it's very true.
49:59
SPEAKER_03: But it's also difficult because you're not gonna agree on things, so you have to kind of navigate that, right?
50:04
SPEAKER_03: But you end up making decisions.
50:06
SPEAKER_03: I think it's and it takes you everywhere, it can take you all over the place.
50:10
SPEAKER_03: Like you can go look at art in St.
50:11
SPEAKER_03: Park, you can go look at art in Paris, you can go look at art in Shanghai, you know, together.
50:17
SPEAKER_03: And so, and you're gonna get exposed to different things, and and so that's probably one of the coolest things for me about that that whole what I've done.
50:24
SPEAKER_03: So, you're taking people on these journeys and finding a lot of the journeys myself, and I feel like but you're bringing back things that might learn, yeah, special.
50:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
50:34
SPEAKER_03: And my ex-wife and I at one point uh did a lot of it, and it was I find I find that fascinating because Tiffany decorates, and she's been for 25 years, hundreds of homes.
50:48
SPEAKER_01: She decorates these homes, then she buys people art.
50:51
SPEAKER_03: She buys like junk art, but but you do.
50:55
SPEAKER_03: And If it means something to you, that's what matters, like I was trying to say.
50:58
SPEAKER_03: Like the value, there's a lot of ways to look at value.
51:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it can be collectible, but also can just literally be like it works on that wall.
51:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you see, I have a hard time putting my head around that because in our house, everything that's hanging on the wall, there's a meaning behind.
51:13
SPEAKER_01: So I think I that's how I'm more associated.
51:16
SPEAKER_01: Like I want things like there's a story, yeah.
51:18
SPEAKER_01: Yes, there's a story every piece that's hanging.
51:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah that we there's nothing that we've just bought.
51:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's buy that.
51:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's never pure decoration for me.
51:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but there's some people that do pure decoration, which I respect.
51:32
SPEAKER_03: And I and I have, you know, I work towards that.
51:35
SPEAKER_03: But to me, there has to be like an attached like stero story, like it fits in a place in art history, it has an opportunity to increase in value.
51:43
SPEAKER_01: Like those are the things like I'm those are great stories to sell to a person or help a person curate for themselves or for their home, because you're you're giving them a story behind that piece of art.
51:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
51:56
SPEAKER_01: Which then, see, I'm a person that I've I've taken a lot of products to market.
52:00
SPEAKER_01: And I believe any product to bring to market, there's got to be a story behind the product.
52:06
SPEAKER_01: Because if you have a story, like if we have a story about this water bottle and you love that story, you're gonna go tell someone else that story about the water bottle.
52:15
SPEAKER_01: So it's the same thing about everything needs stories.
52:18
TIffany Woolley: Yeah, that's why I love podcasts.
52:20
SPEAKER_03: In our world doesn't make sense without it, right?
52:23
SPEAKER_03: Like you have to have it.
52:25
SPEAKER_01: It's like in our house, everything that's hanging on the walls, there's a story.
52:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's why like my example for that is like when I walk into a hotel room that that just has like some G Clay printed, like it's like it does nothing for me.
52:42
SPEAKER_03: Like it's just trying to fill a space.
52:44
SPEAKER_03: I know.
52:45
SPEAKER_03: That bothers me a little bit.
52:47
SPEAKER_03: By the way, it's no disrespect, it's just me.
52:49
TIffany Woolley: Yeah, I understand and like I I want something that like it's part of your travel journey, and yeah, you do want a hotel room to have like a little bit more expression, you would hear I'd rather someone went to a travel store, hung something from the local and need a little curated.
53:07
SPEAKER_01: We traveled a number of years ago.
53:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I said to Teffy, let's stay at the Hard Rock.
53:12
SPEAKER_01: She was like, No, I don't want to stay at the Hard Rock.
53:14
SPEAKER_01: I said, No, come on, one time, let's stay at the Hard Rock, of course.
53:17
SPEAKER_01: In Orlando, because I thought that the Hard Rock in the rooms would have really cool like rock and roll.
53:26
SPEAKER_01: We got to the room, and I was like so disappointed that yeah, they had pictures, but it was like like oh my god, like a huge mouth-produced hotel.
53:35
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was like terrible.
53:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you want to see like like Jimmy Page's guitar or something?
53:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I thought they would have like really cool stuff, but no, it wasn't.
53:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
53:44
SPEAKER_03: Well, they did like have you ever been to the hard rock in Las Vegas?
53:47
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
53:47
TIffany Woolley: Because they do have those like guitars and outfits like down like everything.
53:53
SPEAKER_03: But not in the rooms.
53:54
SPEAKER_03: No, not in the rooms.
53:55
SPEAKER_03: So the rooms are just pictures of like rock concerts and stuff, yeah.
53:58
SPEAKER_03: Not even that terrible.
54:00
TIffany Woolley: So going so if somebody had a hundred thousand to spend on a piece of art, what are questions they themselves should ask?
54:09
TIffany Woolley: What should they be asking?
54:12
TIffany Woolley: Like where should they be starting?
54:15
SPEAKER_03: So, okay, well, I guess the big the first thing is like kind of what's the goal?
54:19
SPEAKER_03: Because if the goal is like to have a collectible asset, then then that's a very different conversation than then there's an aesthetic requirement.
54:27
TIffany Woolley: Okay.
54:27
SPEAKER_03: You know?
54:28
SPEAKER_03: And by the way, they can be merged, but like let's understand what the what the requirement is because then that makes it much easier if we understand there's aesthetics, you know, there's size constraints, and then there's um, you know, there's an objective.
54:42
SPEAKER_03: Um, but then like I have okay, so I work and like so f to me, art is a relationship business.
54:48
SPEAKER_03: Like so, everyone I work with are friends.
54:52
TIffany Woolley: And I was just thinking as you're talking, it's similar to what I do.
54:55
TIffany Woolley: Like we also talk a lot on this part, hiring a professional when you are ready to spend that money.
55:00
TIffany Woolley: So when somebody does have, that's why they need somebody like you.
55:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so it's a dialogue.
55:06
SPEAKER_03: Like I so I I like to like I like to approach it like asking questions, really try to understand their person and then try to like layer in what I've learned and what I know to help inform that by, you know what I mean?
55:18
SPEAKER_03: So that's the way I would approach it.
55:20
SPEAKER_03: Like someone like flying blind and they're just literally jumping in.
55:24
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I always say just like just immerse yourself like as quickly as possible into like a sophisticated like go to a by the way, probably a best place to go is to like the best art dealer you can find in your region.
55:38
TIffany Woolley: In like your town, like a gallery or art gallery.
55:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, art gallery.
55:42
SPEAKER_03: Like go to the like like so.
55:44
SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's I would probably in this case I'd probably go up to Palm Beach and I would start talking to galleries and like find out who like who do I like?
55:52
SPEAKER_03: They they hear me, like they understand me, they respond, like, and then I would just start a dialogue with them.
55:58
TIffany Woolley: Build a relationship.
55:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
55:59
SPEAKER_03: Because I I think that I think you want to provide some context around what you're doing.
56:04
SPEAKER_03: Like I've made so many mistakes not talking to people, just spending money.
56:08
TIffany Woolley: Right.
56:09
SPEAKER_03: Like it's just burned money, like, and from a value perspective.
56:12
TIffany Woolley: Right.
56:12
SPEAKER_03: And by the way, I don't like the art anymore either because my tastes evolve.
56:16
TIffany Woolley: So which is design too.
56:18
TIffany Woolley: I mean, you people we decorate their house and you love it for 15 years, and then you're ready for an update, a refresh.
56:24
TIffany Woolley: It doesn't mean what was done 15 years was wrong or bad.
56:28
TIffany Woolley: You've just evolved.
56:30
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
56:30
SPEAKER_03: It's a process, right?
56:31
SPEAKER_03: And you're evolving.
56:32
SPEAKER_03: I think of it as like everything is just a studio and we're just working through, you know, like rethinking it, like over and over and over again.
56:39
SPEAKER_03: And that's because we're like expanding, you know, like there's no done.
56:43
SPEAKER_03: Right.
56:43
SPEAKER_03: We're not an architecture professor, like someone like was done with their project like early, and he's like, You're done.
56:49
SPEAKER_03: It's a good thing as done.
56:51
TIffany Woolley: I love that.
56:53
TIffany Woolley: I love that.
56:54
TIffany Woolley: It's so true.
56:55
SPEAKER_01: Do you spend more time buying art for people or selling art or even yourself?
57:02
SPEAKER_03: Um uh probably um well for me, I guess that there's kind of a back and forth is happening.
57:11
SPEAKER_03: Um, if I look back to the last couple of years, a lot of buying actually in the last couple of years.
57:16
SPEAKER_03: There's like there's like a few things that will de-accession so we can make room for something else, but it's probably principally driven towards buying.
57:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
57:24
SPEAKER_03: But I but I but I also um I was formerly with another group and I ended up really focusing on what we call like acquisition.
57:32
SPEAKER_03: So taking things from collectors that they want to sell and then finding homes for them.
57:37
SPEAKER_03: And uh, and I was working principally in South Florida, and there's a lot of um old, you know, kind of older collections, people that are at a different point in their career.
57:46
SPEAKER_03: And so that was there was all kinds of things that I was selling through, you know.
57:51
TIffany Woolley: It's such a fascinating industry to meet too, because I have a client who, you know, is a collector and a dealer and uh, you know, from family, like grew up with it also in his life.
58:02
TIffany Woolley: And he gets the phone calls that like after Southerby's is done up in Palm Beach, you know, one of the grand, you know, Gilded Age homes, like somebody passes away, family's been through it, doesn't want it.
58:14
TIffany Woolley: Sotherby's is done with it, has taken the collect now.
58:18
TIffany Woolley: This is what's left.
58:19
TIffany Woolley: Like, do you ever get calls like that to like sort out collections?
58:25
TIffany Woolley: Yeah, that's happened.
58:26
TIffany Woolley: Absolutely, 100%.
58:27
TIffany Woolley: I find that so interesting.
58:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
58:29
SPEAKER_03: And then like sometimes there's ways to like point things in certain directions, and um, other times it's like wait, you know, like or find a way, you know, like hang on to that while and just you know, the market's a little like soft at this moment for certain artists, and but it will probably come back.
58:45
SPEAKER_03: Right.
58:45
SPEAKER_03: And um, yeah, so some of that is uh yeah, that definitely happens.
58:52
SPEAKER_01: So art can be from a pricing standpoint, from one end to the other, high, you know, extraordinarily there's a lot of volatility.
59:01
SPEAKER_01: Um is there a kind of a middle point of where you know like the average that people will spend on pieces?
59:12
SPEAKER_01: Or is it just all over the map?
59:15
SPEAKER_03: Well, so collecting art is like it's definitely more of like a privilege for people that have capacity.
59:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
59:23
SPEAKER_03: I mean that's just unfortunately, right?
59:25
SPEAKER_03: It is, yeah.
59:26
SPEAKER_03: It's really hard to do it um like on a strict, strict, strict budget, but there are some really wonderful examples of people who have done it that are really, really brilliant at doing it.
59:36
SPEAKER_03: Um but uh so I'm trying to think of how to answer that question.
59:40
SPEAKER_01: Like, where like where does some So there's no there's no price point that's kind of like an average price point, like the average piece sells you know today in the$15,000,$20,000 range.
59:52
SPEAKER_03: Or is it just I feel like that might actually be a pretty good, I mean, if you want to go into like some of these art fairs, which would you consider like galleries which are are are um nurturing careers intended to you know have success and exist over time and end up in museums.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_03: And you know, I do feel like maybe like 15, 20 grand is not is pretty common.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_03: I but I but when I was starting it, I feel like you could go buy things five grand and under, and I kind of missed that.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_03: Wow, like that made sense to me.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_03: It's harder to like take a flyer on a$30,000 you know piece of art for me.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_03: Um but there's just been so much money that flowed into the market that there's just such demand.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_03: And and by the way, that that market, like was you're buying more emerging art, art that's not um you know as well collected yet, is soft right now.
1:00:43
SPEAKER_03: So right now, like we're this market right now, very much blue chip, like soup, yeah.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_03: It's like that's where money's going.
1:00:51
SPEAKER_03: And so that market that was like in 2020, 20 2020 through 2022 was like it was so it was a wild speculative market, and people were just paying anything for any new artist at a decent gallery.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_03: Any new artist, any new artist, basically, or like young artists.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_03: Almost people just write out of like an MFA at Yale and they're selling things for crazy money.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_03: So I mean it's I don't think it does the artist, it doesn't serve the artist very well, but especially when the when the market softens, but that's it's it's softer now.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_01: So it's how they're that's fascinating that like artists like you think of Andy Waha.
1:01:29
TIffany Woolley: I mean Well, one thing I love to mean that's what that's art like well, that's a factory.
1:01:35
TIffany Woolley: You could have an Andy Waha hanging in your head to it.
1:01:38
TIffany Woolley: Same thing with Picasso.
1:01:40
TIffany Woolley: I mean, to me, they all have such a build-up of uh personality, like even Chigal, you go to like Ez and you see like where he would spend summers or Monet's Garden that you know, like to me, there was such a like I get it, like to me, I'm probably more attached to the story and the buildup than those stories are important, yeah.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_03: I mean the Warhol factory, like think about like where we were in this kind of industrial moment in time and pop culture and right this like the rise of the stars and the distribution of movies and like you know media, like so.
1:02:15
SPEAKER_03: I mean, he literally like created like a factory, which is what we were doing with everything else on our planet, and commercialized pop culture.
1:02:23
SPEAKER_03: Like it was brilliant, like it actually like it is the our culture, like it's a representation, and that's like that.
1:02:28
SPEAKER_03: Well, what's better than that?
1:02:29
TIffany Woolley: No, I know it's perfect.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_03: It's amazing.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I love that work, and I love it.
1:02:33
SPEAKER_01: Did you ever run across his stuff?
1:02:35
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, yeah.
1:02:36
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I made my parents buy some, yeah.
1:02:38
SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_01: Is it ever out there reasonable?
1:02:41
SPEAKER_03: Well, there's certain things, there's like additioned work that like you can buy, you know, that's reasonable.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's things that, you know, uh, yes, yes.
1:02:50
TIffany Woolley: And uh, we would want a roar hall.
1:02:53
TIffany Woolley: Yeah, I love I love a lot of his work.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_03: And I love the story.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_03: I love how many artists he's influenced.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_03: So is there anybody out there like that now that you see, you know, setting up like their story is just being well the artist that I like that's kind of similar and this and has a similar approach is um Takashi Murakami, he's a Japanese artist.
1:03:19
SPEAKER_03: And like he did the purses.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, I have one, I buy one for my ex-wife.
1:03:23
SPEAKER_03: I'm on it back, but like I have two.
1:03:25
TIffany Woolley: I gave one to my I have two daughters, but I have two of them, and I gave one to each of the twins, and I keep telling them, I'm like, you don't understand, like it really is important.
1:03:35
TIffany Woolley: Yeah, it's a special piece.
1:03:36
SPEAKER_03: I have a painting, uh Louis Vuitton painting he did.
1:03:39
SPEAKER_03: Oh, so cool.
1:03:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:03:40
SPEAKER_03: That I bought like 25 years ago, but or something.
1:03:44
TIffany Woolley: So does he have an interesting life to build it?
1:03:47
SPEAKER_03: But he also like supports artists, he has a studio, he invites other artists into the studio.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_03: He actually like an apprenticeship situation.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_03: Like he's got like uh Kaikekiki, which literally is like promoting other artists and helping them nurture their career.
1:04:00
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I like that he's building a universe to help build these artists' careers.
1:04:04
SPEAKER_03: Now he's telling a story that's like principally based in Japanese culture, right?
1:04:09
SPEAKER_03: So songs and anime and and a lot of those traditional narratives and and um so but it's uh but I love that about him as a leader, you know, like he's taken a success and he's really helping a lot of other, and by the way, I mean he also transcended like a lot of artists don't transcend that like fine art and making commercial bags for Louis.
1:04:31
TIffany Woolley: Well, I was just gonna say, like, yeah, switching genres is so cool.
1:04:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and he and he pulls it off and it doesn't like he didn't lose any credibility.
1:04:38
SPEAKER_03: Like that's awesome.
1:04:39
SPEAKER_03: Like that represents this moment, I think.
1:04:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's other artists that can't quite carry it out, but he did, and he did it well.
1:04:46
TIffany Woolley: And so And what do you think of like some of these contemporary artists like an Alec Monopoly or like I feel like Banksy that some of these that people I don't know?
1:04:56
SPEAKER_03: Well, Banksy is interesting to me.
1:04:58
TIffany Woolley: Do we know who he is?
1:05:00
SPEAKER_03: I think well they everyone I don't I feel like every day like there's someone saying we know him, and then and then there's like questions, and I I mean I feel like I read something that they did discover him, but I don't even know who it is.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_03: I don't even know if I care.
1:05:12
SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, not mean that's just like I like the the mystery.
1:05:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, are you familiar with Kenny Schaaf?
1:05:19
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, I love his work.
1:05:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
1:05:22
SPEAKER_03: I spoke to him on the phone once.
1:05:24
SPEAKER_03: Well, actually, I called his studio and I think he pretended it wasn't him, but I but it was him.
1:05:27
TIffany Woolley: Yeah.
1:05:29
SPEAKER_01: I was doing a restaurant years ago and I got in touch with him, and he was gonna do all of our plates.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_01: And then I ended up doing a video with him where he decorated this uh car that we oh like an art car?
1:05:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, pretty wild what he did to it.
1:05:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a few of them he did it right here in Del Rey.
1:05:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh, he did, yeah.
1:05:49
SPEAKER_03: Well, he he's got some nice like movement right now, Trent.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_03: Like, I mean, people are paying attention, and he's a great artist.
1:05:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:05:56
SPEAKER_01: And he's a great, he's a great guy.
1:05:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean, just uh I got to know him and
1:06:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:06:01
SPEAKER_03: And super influential in like I mean, I mean Herring, like all I mean, great friends with Herring, like all those people that he was connected to.
1:06:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:06:08
SPEAKER_03: I mean he was in the hot I mean he was in that moment.
1:06:11
SPEAKER_03: And and so is he still?
1:06:13
SPEAKER_03: Well, he's still making great work, I think.
1:06:15
SPEAKER_03: And um and so and and getting the attention again, I think the market's you know, paying attention.
1:06:22
SPEAKER_03: And I mean he's had a very stable career for a long time.
1:06:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:06:26
SPEAKER_03: Make good work.
1:06:27
SPEAKER_03: I mean, he's smart.
1:06:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:06:29
SPEAKER_03: So um what a fun conversation.
1:06:33
TIffany Woolley: Yeah.
1:06:34
SPEAKER_03: What a fun job you have.
1:06:35
SPEAKER_03: I know, really.
1:06:37
SPEAKER_03: It's you know, and I always say that in the end, like like I like, I like objects, I like art, I like ideas, I like beauty, I like, and by the way, it's not just about beauty, but I like, you know, things that are compelling and uh and visual narratives work for me.
1:06:49
SPEAKER_03: But in the end, I also love people.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_03: So my entire the only reason I do this is because I get to meet great people and I want to know like like what makes you all like where's your genius?
1:07:00
SPEAKER_03: Like what like what's your perspective that like I don't have, you know.
1:07:03
SPEAKER_03: I just I totally get turned on hearing those stories and why people buy art that you know, what attracted them to something.
1:07:09
SPEAKER_03: So that to me, it's just that it's a friendship.
1:07:12
TIffany Woolley: Definitely.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_01: So some for someone who listening to this podcast now says to themselves, Well, I'd like to buy something interesting.
1:07:20
SPEAKER_01: Where should they start?
1:07:21
SPEAKER_01: What should they do?
1:07:22
SPEAKER_01: How should what should they be thinking about?
1:07:24
TIffany Woolley: You're like you've got going to a gallery.
1:07:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, art bastle is a great way to just kind of be like, here it is, boom.
1:07:29
SPEAKER_03: Like here's like collectible art world in a box.
1:07:32
SPEAKER_03: Like that's one of those things.
1:07:33
TIffany Woolley: It's so amazing to think about the collectible art world right there.
1:07:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, it's well, it's just like an it's not everything, but it's like a super education.
1:07:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like you supercharge your eyes.
1:07:43
SPEAKER_03: So, like if you go and look at a lot of things, like like, and by the way, you might have to do it a couple years in a row, you know what I mean?
1:07:49
SPEAKER_03: Right to like get that thing processing, but you're gonna see and you're gonna start getting turned on by things, you're gonna ask questions, and then you're gonna start building a sophistication around it.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_03: So that's a great education.
1:08:00
SPEAKER_03: Um by the way, also go into art openings, good art openings.
1:08:03
SPEAKER_03: Like, there's good art openings in Miami, there's good art openings in Palm Beach.
1:08:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we've done so go to the through the years, yeah.
1:08:10
TIffany Woolley: On and off.
1:08:11
SPEAKER_03: Um, I think that makes a lot of sense.
1:08:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
1:08:15
TIffany Woolley: Well, thank you so much for joining us on the i Design Lab podcast.
1:08:20
SPEAKER_01: So wait, one last, one last thing.
1:08:22
SPEAKER_01: So for anyone listening who wants advice, who needs some help, how can they find you?
1:08:28
SPEAKER_01: How can they reach out to you?
1:08:29
SPEAKER_03: Well, the best place is probably um to email me at Breck at Gmail, Breckenridge.
1:08:36
SPEAKER_03: So B-R-E-C-K-E-N-R-I-D-G-E at gmail.com.
1:08:40
TIffany Woolley: Okay.
1:08:41
SPEAKER_03: So that's the best.
1:08:42
SPEAKER_03: Um, I can, you know, someone wants to text me, it's 585-729-6666.
1:08:48
SPEAKER_03: So easy number, 585-729, all sixes.
1:08:52
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I and actually I love text, actually.
1:08:55
TIffany Woolley: Me too.
1:08:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:08:57
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:08:57
TIffany Woolley: I never thought I would say that, but I do.
1:08:59
TIffany Woolley: I literally it's immediate.
1:09:02
SPEAKER_03: It's you know, and in fact, I created a service that just like basically turns an inbox into a text service.
1:09:07
SPEAKER_03: And that's that email is breck at noinbox.ai.
1:09:11
TIffany Woolley: Oh, that's awesome.
1:09:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:09:13
SPEAKER_03: So that that's actually a good one.
1:09:15
SPEAKER_03: Actually, and that one I'm in beta to let other people into it right now, but but so that's a good one to use breck at noinbox.ai.
1:09:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:09:23
SPEAKER_03: Well, we appreciate you sitting with us.
1:09:25
TIffany Woolley: I know.
1:09:26
TIffany Woolley: What an amazing conversation.
1:09:28
TIffany Woolley: I could like pick your brain for hours more.
1:09:30
SPEAKER_03: Well, you can anytime.
1:09:32
TIffany Woolley: I will look forward to that opportunity.
1:09:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that was fun.
1:09:35
SPEAKER_03: And yeah, thank you, you guys.
1:09:37
SPEAKER_03: I'm really exciting what you guys do.
1:09:39
TIffany Woolley: Thank you.
1:09:40
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, and nice that you bring all this stuff together and all these people together.
1:09:43
TIffany Woolley: And it's really a joy every day, honestly, that we'd host one of these.
1:09:48
TIffany Woolley: It's really I learned so much, and I do believe everybody's story is important, you know, and we and our stories are constantly being written.
1:09:58
TIffany Woolley: So we'll look back.
1:09:59
TIffany Woolley: Maybe we'll have you come back before Basel tell us what we do.
1:10:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that would be fun.
1:10:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that would be fun.
1:10:04
SPEAKER_03: I would love that.
1:10:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:10:06
TIffany Woolley: Thank you for listening to the iDesign Lab podcast.
1:10:10
Voice Over: iDesign Labs Podcast is an SW group production in association with the five star and TW Interiors.
1:10:17
Voice Over: To learn more about iDesign Lab or TW Interiors, please visit TWinteriors.com.