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Texas Flood 2025: Smarter Tools Needed To Save Lives · How To Protect The Ocean

0:00
A few places in the US have
0:02
undergone extreme flooding.
0:05
Kerr County, Texas, and New Mexico,
0:07
Reduso from July 4th to July
0:09
8th, have had flash flooding.
0:12
Many people have died,
0:13
people are still missing.
0:14
And conversations are
0:15
happening, what happened?
0:17
Were people alerted?
0:18
How did those alerts go out?
0:20
How were they received
0:21
if they were received?
0:22
And how are people building
0:24
infrastructure around rivers
0:27
where there's been flooding in the past?
0:29
I wanted to make sure
0:31
that you as the audience
0:33
for the How to Protect the Ocean podcast
0:34
understood some of the
0:35
conversations that are going on.
0:37
There's a lot going on in the news.
0:39
A lot of people are
0:40
making it very political
0:41
because of the cuts that happened
0:42
over the last couple
0:43
months in the US federally.
0:45
And I wanted to kind of
0:45
sift through all that, right?
0:47
Really sift through the BS to
0:48
say, what actually happened?
0:51
Did the cuts get,
0:52
affect the messaging system?
0:54
Did the cuts affect the ability
0:55
for the message to get out there?
0:57
Or was it just a fact that this was a
1:00
very bad circumstance caused by more
1:04
moisture in the air?
1:05
And a confluence of storms and clouds
1:08
with moisture and just bad circumstances?
1:12
Or is it all of the above?
1:13
To the bottom of that, I
1:14
wanted to get some answers.
1:16
And Dave Jones, the CEO of Storm Center
1:18
has come on the podcast
1:19
before to talk about storms
1:21
and alert systems and weather.
1:24
And he's a meteorologist
1:25
for a very, very long time.
1:26
He's a good friend of the podcast.
1:28
And he graciously accepted to come on the
1:30
podcast and talk about how
1:32
the messaging system went out,
1:33
how it could be better done in the future
1:35
and what needs to be done so that we can
1:38
alert more people
1:39
faster and they can get out.
1:41
And they can have all the information for
1:42
them, plus the feedback systems that
1:44
happen and what needs
1:45
to happen in the future.
1:47
Before we go on with the podcast, you
1:49
know, I want to be sensitive to the fact
1:50
that people have had
1:52
their lives just, you know,
1:55
it's been awful for people.
1:57
It's been a huge tragedy.
1:58
I want to acknowledge that.
2:00
The reason why I'm putting this podcast
2:02
out now is because as the Central Texas
2:05
and Kerr County floods were
2:06
happening in the river there,
2:08
another flood happened in New Mexico.
2:10
So these floods are happening.
2:11
We're at a time of year where there's a
2:12
lot of moisture in the air because of
2:13
humidity and it's the summer.
2:15
So I want to make sure that people, if
2:17
they can have the
2:19
ability to get the right,
2:21
know whether radios or whatever they
2:24
need, they will have it and that they'll
2:26
be on alert and they understand the
2:27
impacts of these dangerous situations.
2:30
So hence why I'm putting it out now is to
2:32
be cognizant of that and to
2:34
help people in the near future.
2:36
So here's the episode.
2:38
Let's start the show.
2:41
Everybody, welcome back to another
2:42
episode of the How to
2:44
Protect the Ocean podcast.
2:45
I am your host, Andrew Lewin.
2:46
This is the podcast where you find out
2:47
what's happening with the ocean, how you
2:48
can speak up for the ocean,
2:50
what you can do to live for a better
2:51
ocean by taking action.
2:54
On today's episode, it's
2:55
a bit of a somber note.
2:56
We are talking about the flash floods
2:57
that happened in Kerr County in Texas, as
3:00
well as in New Mexico.
3:02
People have lost their lives.
3:03
People are still missing.
3:05
The rescue efforts are ongoing.
3:07
I want to have Dave Jones on to talk
3:08
about what went on during the storm.
3:12
How are people alerted in these areas
3:14
that are more vulnerable to flash floods
3:16
and what can we do
3:17
about it in the future?
3:19
And for those communities that are in a
3:21
similar situation that haven't had floods
3:23
yet, but might have them in the future,
3:25
what they can do and how they can better
3:28
prepare themselves in the future so that
3:30
this doesn't happen in
3:31
their county, in their town.
3:33
So I want to have Dave
3:35
Jones on to discuss this.
3:37
He's been on the podcast before.
3:38
He's been a
3:39
meteorologist for a long, long time.
3:41
He's the CEO of Storm Center right now,
3:43
which provides extra coverage of the
3:47
weather to his clients, but also
3:49
as a YouTube channel, which I'll link in
3:50
the show notes where you can get updated
3:52
live updates a lot of the times on
3:55
hurricanes, on storms and so forth.
3:57
And you can better protect
3:58
yourself and better be alerted.
4:00
So he helps amplify the messages.
4:02
He doesn't put up the messages, but he
4:03
helps amplify the messages coming up from
4:05
the National Weather Service and NOAA.
4:07
He does a damn good job at it.
4:09
So he was gracious enough to take time
4:11
away from the work that he's doing to
4:13
help educate myself, as well as everybody
4:16
here that's listening to this podcast and
4:18
watching this podcast.
4:19
In order to better protect
4:20
themselves wherever you live.
4:22
You know, I live here in Canada, watching
4:24
this from Canada is awful.
4:25
We've seen this happen in our country,
4:27
but to watch it anywhere around the world
4:29
and see people in pain and have to
4:31
undergo this tragedy, a
4:32
tragedy is just awful.
4:34
And, you know, our hearts go out to
4:35
everybody and the families
4:36
who are going through this.
4:38
But I wanted to make sure that we had the
4:39
education here so that we can protect
4:42
ourselves in the future.
4:43
So without further ado, here is Dave
4:45
Jones talking about the flash floods that
4:48
happened in Texas and New Mexico, how we
4:50
can better prepare ourselves and how the
4:52
system works and how it can work even
4:54
better in the future.
4:55
Enjoy and I'll talk to you after.
4:57
Hey, Dave, welcome back to the How to
4:59
Protect the Ocean podcast.
5:00
Are you ready to talk about some flooding
5:02
that's happening in the US right now?
5:04
Unfortunately, I'm ready.
5:06
Yeah, it's it's you know, when I when I
5:08
want to when I contacted you to come on
5:11
the podcast, I was
5:11
like, he's going to be busy.
5:13
He's going to be tired, you know, just
5:15
not only mentally and
5:16
physically, but emotionally.
5:18
And I mean, there are some big tragedies
5:20
happening in Texas, in New Mexico.
5:24
There are over 120 people that have
5:26
confirmed that have died in
5:27
these flash floods in Texas.
5:30
There's there's about four individuals
5:32
that are missing, three people killed,
5:33
including two children in New Mexico.
5:35
Horrendous, horrendous
5:37
flooding, horrendous tragedy.
5:40
And of course, people are still missing.
5:42
And this is and this is
5:44
what we wanted to avoid.
5:45
We always want to avoid
5:46
this type of stuff we talk.
5:48
And in this as as everything is
5:50
developing and as still people are trying
5:52
to be found and rescuers are doing their
5:54
best and and and braving the elements to
5:57
get out there in very difficult
5:59
situations or very dangerous situations
6:01
to rescue and find some
6:03
of these missing people.
6:05
You know, there's some blame and a lot of
6:07
stuff being thrown back and forth.
6:08
And unfortunately, a lot of it's
6:09
political, you know, a lot of doge cuts
6:12
that we talked about on the last podcast,
6:15
you know, from NOAA, the National Weather
6:17
Service, what we were afraid of.
6:19
But it seems like a lot of political
6:21
stuff is like, let's blame one side,
6:22
let's blame the other side.
6:24
I want to strip away that Dave today.
6:25
And I want to kind of just talk about the
6:28
process of what is supposed to happen.
6:30
And if that happened during this, like
6:32
the early warning systems, making sure
6:34
people were safe or they knew about these
6:38
types of storms and these types of
6:39
floods, how these floods occurred.
6:42
And maybe we'll start
6:43
off with that, Dave.
6:44
Can you just talk, because, you know,
6:45
you've got you've got the knowledge on
6:46
this way more than I do.
6:48
Can you just let the audience know, like,
6:49
what happened in the first place?
6:51
How did these floods happen?
6:52
Well, I mean, you know,
6:54
it's a great question.
6:55
And we always look back.
6:57
Of course, we can see things developing
7:00
in the future, but we can't tell, you
7:04
know, days and days and days ahead of
7:05
time, how much rain is going to fall in a
7:08
certain watershed or over a certain town.
7:12
That is really an elusive
7:14
thing as far as forecasting goes.
7:16
But we can see the conditions coming
7:19
together that will
7:20
result in flooding somewhere.
7:24
And that's what happened, Andrew, over
7:27
the last, you know, several days, even
7:30
before July 4th and the
7:32
terrible flood happened.
7:34
We had a lot of
7:35
moisture that was in the air.
7:38
And typically there's, you know, there's
7:40
a give and take for
7:40
moisture and dry air over Texas.
7:43
And we had a landfalling tropical storm
7:47
in Mexico several days before that.
7:49
That was kind of, you
7:51
know, rained out in Mexico.
7:52
But that circulation stayed there and it
7:54
brought with it when it moved
7:57
over Texas, even more moisture.
8:01
And so, you know, you and I might notice
8:04
it as boy, it's really humid out today.
8:06
Yeah, got a lot more
8:08
humid than yesterday.
8:10
It doesn't mean that that remnants of
8:12
that system was bringing any rain itself
8:14
or bringing any thunderstorms, but it was
8:18
bringing the moisture.
8:20
And at the same time, there was a
8:21
circulation around a high pressure system
8:24
that was off the southeast coast of the
8:26
United States that was bringing in more
8:30
moisture from the Gulf.
8:32
And that happens very
8:34
frequently in Texas.
8:37
So you have those two
8:38
things that are coming together.
8:40
And then you had a little disturbance in
8:42
the atmosphere that was leading to the
8:45
development of
8:46
thunderstorms in South Central Texas.
8:50
And when you don't have a lot of steering
8:51
currents, but you have a lot of moisture
8:53
and you get thunderstorms to develop, you
8:56
get thunderstorms that
8:57
develop and don't move very quickly.
9:01
There is no real push to
9:03
get them out of the way.
9:05
And so when those thunderstorms develop,
9:07
they tap into that very
9:09
thick layer of tropical moisture.
9:13
It's continuing to be fed by moisture
9:16
coming in off of the Gulf around the
9:18
circulation around a
9:20
high pressure system.
9:22
And those thunderstorms
9:23
just kind of sit there.
9:25
And that's what happened over Kerr County
9:28
in Texas and just north of Kerr County.
9:31
These thunderstorms formed
9:33
and they just kept reforming.
9:36
We call it training when all move over
9:39
the same place at the same time.
9:41
And that is the
9:42
recipe for flash flooding.
9:46
So when you think about that, you think
9:49
about that moisture and the storms going
9:51
and all that stuff, you
9:51
think, well, what about absorption?
9:54
Can't the land absorb
9:56
that rain coming down?
9:59
And the hill country of South Central
10:02
Texas is very much thin
10:06
soil and a lot of rock.
10:10
And it's it's very hard there.
10:13
And so they had been in a drought for a
10:16
long period of time.
10:18
So you have very hard soil.
10:21
You have not very thick soil for
10:23
absorbing any kind of rain and, you know,
10:27
nothing's going to absorb 12 to 15 to
10:31
perhaps 20 inches of rain
10:32
over a several hour period.
10:35
That rain has to go somewhere and it
10:38
drains right down into the watershed and
10:42
into the local river.
10:44
In this case, the Guadalupe River, which
10:47
surged more than 30 feet as unreal.
10:51
All that rain fell.
10:52
Now, you know, we we talk about storms
10:56
that happen like this and you know, you
10:58
mentioned how this just seemed to be this
11:02
time as coincidence in a way where all
11:05
these systems are kind of
11:06
converging in one place.
11:08
You have over an area where you have, you
11:10
know, a lot of rock.
11:11
And so the absorption of the soil and
11:13
thin soil, not a lot of
11:14
absorption is going to happen.
11:16
This seems to be just a case of bad luck.
11:19
But we know we talk about when we do.
11:21
I've done this in the past
11:22
when I did private consulting.
11:24
We talk about 100 year storms, which are
11:25
really bad storms, 50 year storms, 10
11:28
year storms and all these
11:29
different types of storms.
11:30
And, you know, engineers and planners,
11:33
they build and they plan for these types
11:35
of storms to happen every so often.
11:38
So these hundred year storms, these 10
11:40
year storms for a storm like this, I know
11:43
it might be early to
11:44
say, do we know what?
11:45
What kind of category these storms have?
11:47
Like, has this happened before in these
11:49
areas where similar
11:51
consequences or similar results?
11:54
They have. And in Kerr County and along
11:57
the Guadalupe River, they've had several
12:00
major floods over the
12:02
course of the last hundred years.
12:06
And, you know, I hear in the media, I
12:09
hear other people saying, oh, my gosh,
12:11
this was a one in a thousand year event.
12:13
Well, I've always been an advocate to
12:16
say, let's throw that out the window.
12:21
Right. Let's stop talking about one in a
12:23
thousand year event.
12:25
Let's talk a lot, not talk about one in a
12:27
hundred year event because we are living
12:30
in a different paradigm as far as the
12:32
atmosphere is concerned.
12:33
It is basically
12:35
turbocharged with heat and moisture.
12:40
And so we can't look at past events and
12:43
say, oh, this is not
12:44
going to happen again.
12:47
Anybody that says that this flood that
12:49
just happened isn't going to happen for
12:51
another two to five
12:52
hundred years is not accurate.
12:55
And we're going to see more of these kind
12:59
of floods happening not just in the
13:01
United States, but in many countries
13:04
around the world because we have that
13:06
much more moisture in the atmosphere.
13:08
And so, yes, they've had floods there.
13:12
Many of the structures that were washed
13:15
away were in flood zones.
13:19
Some areas, including the Mystic Cabin
13:22
retreat area was in
13:25
an extreme flood zone.
13:28
Who knows how they
13:29
were able to build there.
13:31
And they also apparently had an emergency
13:36
plan and had an inspection two days
13:40
before this happened and
13:43
passed that inspection.
13:45
So I don't know what the
13:47
inspection was for. Right.
13:49
But it's certainly opening up a lot of
13:52
questions to what the people do,
13:56
especially if they're taking money and
13:59
taking and housing people and having
14:02
activities in a dangerous
14:04
area when it could flood.
14:08
What are the plans that were in place?
14:10
I'd love to see those emergency plans and
14:17
I'd love to see what is the history.
14:20
I'm starting to get information from
14:22
several colleagues around what is the
14:24
information in the past as to why they
14:27
didn't have warning
14:29
systems in place in that area.
14:32
Yeah. You know, it's interesting.
14:33
When we look at the coastal areas all
14:35
around the world, they're
14:38
always updating tsunami warnings.
14:40
They're also updating coastal warnings,
14:41
coastal hazards, sea surges and so forth.
14:47
And you'd expect the same thing to
14:48
happen, especially when you when you just
14:50
what you just mentioned is they had an
14:51
inspection and stuff.
14:53
And I feel as though, as you mentioned
14:54
earlier, how it's a different game than
14:58
it was even 30 years ago, even 10 years
15:01
ago, the atmosphere has changed.
15:03
And so I think that's a good thing.
15:04
Using the thousand year storms, hundred
15:06
year storms, 10 year storms may not be
15:09
appropriate at this point
15:10
because there's going to there.
15:11
We know they're going to be more frequent
15:12
and the atmosphere in itself, as you as
15:15
you described a lot in this podcast
15:16
episode is it's it's
15:19
thick and it's ready.
15:21
So and we're seeing a lot different and I
15:24
I said this a couple of years ago when
15:26
here in Ontario, we had flash flooding
15:29
and I said climate change is going to
15:32
expose the vulnerabilities of cities that
15:36
haven't done the
15:37
necessary adaptations and plans.
15:40
And this is not to because I don't want
15:42
to blame anybody, you know, especially
15:44
what's going on now is
15:45
people are still being rescued.
15:47
No, no, that's not what's going on right now.
15:47
But this is going to change. You know, there's a lot of people that are really cognizant of that.
15:50
But unfortunately, when looking at people
15:53
like cities and towns and villages that
15:55
are dry right now, you know, that are
15:57
watching this, this is the lesson that
16:00
they have to take and being like we do
16:02
inspections, we do routes
16:04
and I think are these routes.
16:13
We look at the floodplains,
16:15
you know, we look at our people.
16:17
Should people be in there?
16:18
If they're in this area and they're
16:19
allowed to be in this area, do they have
16:22
the necessary equipment
16:22
and ability to get out?
16:24
You know, there's a lot of stuff that can
16:26
go on in an emergency, as you know.
16:28
And how many hours did it rise from five
16:31
or seven feet to 37 feet?
16:35
Yeah, estimates are
16:37
between one and two hours.
16:40
That's not a lot of time to get to get
16:41
out of the dodge,
16:42
especially to recognize.
16:43
Like I've seen some of the videos, Dave,
16:46
and you know, you worry
16:47
that what's true, what's not.
16:49
But, you know, it's not what you think in
16:51
terms of the rise, you know, you would
16:54
almost think that somebody's looking at
16:55
it and it's just rising
16:56
up, rising up, rising up.
16:57
It didn't really happen that way, right?
17:01
It was a gosh, like coming around the
17:02
corner, you just see this, this wave in a
17:06
river, which you're just
17:07
like, how does this happen?
17:09
And it's coming and rushing at you.
17:11
It's not just rising this way.
17:13
It's coming for you, you know, in that in
17:15
that kind of manner, which is devastating
17:17
and scary altogether.
17:20
And so it's, you know, when you think
17:22
about it and that rise, you think just
17:24
straight up, but it's coming at you and
17:26
up and that and it's coming out of big at
17:29
a pretty fast speed.
17:30
Yeah. And when you, you know, Andrew,
17:33
when you think about that water coming
17:35
down, let's just say it's moving at seven
17:39
miles per hour, which
17:40
is which is pretty fast.
17:41
Yeah. For water.
17:43
It exerts the same pressure on a person
17:48
as a category five hurricane. And then
17:53
when you make it 10, 20, 30 feet high,
17:58
it's off the charts.
18:01
Nothing can withstand the power of that
18:04
much water coming down. And when you
18:05
think about a thunderstorm, think about a
18:08
hilly area, the topography, all this rain
18:11
coming down along the river.
18:12
And when you think about it, you know,
18:12
all that water is running down along in
18:13
those hills. All that water is running
18:16
down towards the lowest spot.
18:20
And where it meets is where these rivers
18:23
are. That's why rivers are there. And
18:26
when they all come together, all that
18:29
water rushing over all those
18:30
hills down all those hills.
18:39
And when you think about it, you know,
18:40
how it's going to rise in that level.
18:43
Unreal. Now. So we now we know what
18:45
happened in terms of the
18:46
storm and and what it did.
18:49
Let's talk warning systems. Let's talk
18:52
how normally how are people warned about
18:57
these types of storms and and what is the
19:00
process that happens from what you see
19:03
because you kind of see a
19:03
little bit behind the scenes.
19:06
And so you know, you have a lot of people
19:06
in the environment at this point. You
19:08
know, you you have your own. You have you
19:09
have storms that are communications.
19:11
That's your CEO. That is
19:12
what you that's what you do.
19:14
You provide information to people online,
19:17
like through YouTube. And you also have
19:18
your own clients where you provide that
19:20
and provide more analysis and so forth.
19:22
But for people who are in a situation
19:25
like in, you know, Central Texas and Kerr
19:29
County, how were they getting their
19:31
updates and how is it
19:32
normally supposed to go?
19:35
And I have a question and one that's
19:36
going to be analyzed for a while. And
19:38
hopefully quick solutions will come up.
19:42
Most areas like Kerr County or in rural
19:45
areas around the country have a couple of
19:48
ways of getting warnings from the
19:50
National Weather Service. And the
19:52
National Weather Service, first of all,
19:54
is the official and authoritative voice
19:57
for issuing watches and warnings.
20:02
So I can't stand up as the CEO of Storm
20:06
Center Communications and say I'm issuing
20:09
a flash flood warning for this town.
20:13
Right. Right. I can't do that. Right.
20:16
What we do is we immediately pass on
20:18
those warnings and watches and advisories
20:21
from the National Weather Service.
20:24
And so there are there are two main ways
20:26
that they can get that information. One
20:28
is through the wireless emergency alert
20:30
system. It's called we are here in the
20:34
United States where the National Weather
20:36
Service issues a warning.
20:49
And you your phone will go on. You get
20:52
that emergency message that pops up when
20:54
you'll get that emergency message that
20:56
pops up if you haven't turned it off on
21:02
your phone. And if you have a signal and
21:08
you have you have connectivity.
21:10
Yeah. The other way which you can get
21:14
those warnings is through NOAA Weather
21:16
Radio. NOAA Weather Radio is a standalone
21:20
radio that has AMF and bands. As a matter
21:23
of fact, I actually
21:25
have one. It's right here.
21:29
This is the one I think you were showing
21:31
the other day on your social media. I saw
21:34
this. Yeah. So so this is what it looks
21:37
like. I don't know if you can see it.
21:39
Yeah. If you just move it over just a
21:40
little bit to your right, I believe.
21:41
There you go. Yeah. Perfect. Thank you. I
21:43
just unplug it. I don't have batteries in
21:45
this one, but I'll put the antenna down.
21:47
This is the NOAA Weather Radio. And you
21:50
can program it for the area in which you
21:53
live. You know, you go through a menu and
21:56
then you find out what what section
21:58
you're in, what state, what county and
22:00
then what sub region you're in.
22:02
And this radio is constantly monitoring
22:06
through radio signals when the Weather
22:11
Service issues an alert, whether it's a
22:13
watch or a warning. And there are lights
22:17
here right here. It says warning over
22:19
here. It says watch and those lights stay
22:22
lit while that's that is in effect.
22:26
And then all you have to do when you get
22:27
an alert is you hit this button and then
22:30
the National Weather Service computerized
22:32
voice comes across and says National
22:35
Weather Service has issued a flash flood
22:37
warning for Kerr County in Texas for the
22:41
Guadalupe River. It's rising rapidly and
22:44
then they give
22:44
instructions. Interesting. Okay.
22:46
So what we know is that in some areas
22:53
along the Guadalupe River, the cell
22:55
signal is terrible. So they don't have
22:59
great connectivity. But the other thing
23:03
that I do know is that NOAA Weather Radio
23:06
completely covers Kerr County.
23:11
So if everyone along the river had a no
23:15
weather radio, they would have had the
23:19
radios go off and alert them. Now that's
23:22
one part of the equation getting the
23:25
alert. The second part of the equation is
23:28
understanding the alert. So what was
23:31
communicated through no weather radio is
23:35
another thing to look at.
23:36
And we know because it's the same
23:38
information that's sent through the
23:41
Internet to all of our systems. You know,
23:44
I was seeing those warnings coming in and
23:47
you know, I could read them and it's
23:48
exactly what no weather radio was saying.
23:51
But then the other challenges was anybody monitoring a no weather radio when they had if they had a no weather radio and did they know what to do when they heard about that flash flood warning because I can certainly tell you that the flood warnings issued do not specifically identify all the camps and RV camp
24:20
that are on the ground along the river.
24:23
Right. Right. So maybe people are
24:25
listening to Oh, the mystic camp. They
24:27
didn't mention that. I don't know. Yeah,
24:30
because they didn't mention the specific
24:31
argument could be so many. There could be
24:34
so many. Yeah, you have to have
24:36
situational awareness for what a warning
24:39
means and how it applies to where you are
24:44
and where you're going to be spending
24:46
time. Right. And and so the the the other thing that I think that's really important is that the
24:50
other way in which you can get warnings
24:53
is you know, through other Internet
24:56
connected devices. Right. I mean, for
25:02
example, we developed a technology called
25:04
geo collaborate, which allows you to
25:06
collaborate across different platforms.
25:08
If there was a warning issued, then that
25:12
area would light up, you know, and then
25:14
you click on it and then you see what the
25:16
warning is. That's not the most proactive
25:19
way to get a warning.
25:21
And the provision to lipid scheme and theeffect and the awareness that
25:24
everybody has on Earth. And word ofPath
25:40
and to get you to check the warning out the other day, take alternative control. And that theasse messages that they cables may tell you that they have. If
25:45
it's like, we're going to make the messages on dimensional security room chorus spiritual or organizations and email.
25:48
These are the kind of
25:49
questions that we need to ask.
25:50
And, and you know, I mean, some people
25:52
have said to me, you know,
25:54
why are you looking at what, what needs
25:56
to happen now and all that stuff?
25:57
They're still looking for victims. And I
26:00
said, you know what? I,
26:01
from a meteorologist, from a
26:02
meteorologist perspective
26:04
that who does not live in
26:06
Texas, we're all grieving, right?
26:10
We're all grieving.
26:11
Even up here in Canada.
26:13
And, and that's right. People
26:15
around the world are grieving.
26:16
And we're all looking at
26:19
what can we do to help?
26:22
And we can't get down there and dig under
26:25
trees and try to move cars.
26:27
And there are a lot of people down there
26:29
doing that right now.
26:30
So the way in which we can do that is to
26:33
think about not
26:34
letting this happen again.
26:36
And what can we do?
26:39
What? How can we contribute to warning
26:43
systems, understanding
26:44
more, creating better
26:46
products, you know, and it really does in
26:50
many cases come down to
26:52
people believing the warning.
26:58
Right. I mean, we even saw this. We even
27:00
saw this with Hurricane Katrina where
27:03
people stayed even, you know,
27:05
when they were told to evacuate, you
27:08
know, they're always going to be people
27:09
who ignore the warnings,
27:11
ignore the evacuations.
27:13
They don't heed the dangers. Right.
27:16
Right. Right. And, and if you hear that
27:19
warning and you just turn it off because
27:22
you get a lot of warnings that never mean
27:25
anything, that's something that we have
27:28
to look at as meteorologists as the
27:31
National Weather Service.
27:33
What is it that they can do differently
27:36
to make this one seem above and beyond?
27:40
Yes. And make it a
27:42
little bit more urgent.
27:43
Yeah, a little bit more urgent. And
27:45
that's why the Weather Service came up
27:47
with flash flood emergency.
27:52
Right. Okay. Flash flood warnings, flash
27:54
flood warning for here,
27:56
flash flood warning for there.
27:58
But when there's a flash flood emergency,
28:02
their hope is that people will hear the
28:05
word emergency and listen closer to where
28:10
that impacts and then take action.
28:12
And that's exactly what a flash flood
28:14
emergency means. Yeah. And indeed, a
28:17
flash flood emergency was issued. Gotcha.
28:21
Now, when we know one thing to those two
28:23
is to remark, you know, as we discuss
28:26
what can be done in the future.
28:29
I also want to kind of like we're talking
28:31
we're focusing right now on Texas, but,
28:33
you know, not long after maybe like three
28:36
or four days after on July 8, we saw a
28:39
flash flood in New Mexico.
28:43
And, you know, you know, people,
28:45
unfortunately, people perished. Some
28:47
individuals are still missing. So this is
28:50
why like it could happen. We're in this.
28:52
We're in a situation right now. We're in
28:53
a time of year where in certain areas
28:55
where we're more vulnerable than others.
28:58
So even people who are understanding
29:01
what's happening over in Texas, over in
29:02
New Mexico, they're in somewhere else.
29:04
They may be like, maybe we should go get
29:06
a NOA radio, you know, or figure out how
29:09
to get that. Maybe we should start
29:10
looking more on our town or village or
29:13
our city's website and find out where the
29:16
evacuation routes are.
29:17
Or even talk to our council person or
29:20
government representative of like, what
29:22
do we do in this emergency? What is
29:24
actually an emergency that we should be
29:27
really looking out for? And I think it's
29:29
important to that. And that's why I want
29:31
to cover it in this episode because you
29:35
just never know when it's going to hit,
29:36
especially in a summer where we're
29:38
getting humidity all across North
29:40
America, where the rains
29:42
are going to start to come.
29:42
We've been having drought conditions. And
29:45
when those rains come, they come hard and
29:48
it could be it could be very dangerous.
29:51
And the situation with these with these
29:53
radios is the first time I've heard of
29:54
these radios that were still available.
29:56
Is this given out by by the local
30:00
governments or or like the government
30:02
initiatives or are these just purchased
30:05
at like your radio shack or Circuit City
30:07
or Best Buy or whatever.
30:08
Yeah. Yeah. You could. That's a great
30:10
question. And you can purchase these. You
30:13
can get on, you know, any online retailer
30:16
that sells this kind of stuff and order
30:20
them. OK. In many cases, state or county
30:24
governments will buy a
30:26
whole big lot of them. OK.
30:28
OK. Especially in areas that you really
30:30
need them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I
30:33
remember speaking with a friend of mine
30:36
and colleague who is the spokesperson for
30:40
Midland Radio, which is a manufacturer of
30:43
no weather radios, said that in some
30:48
cases, areas or counties or towns who
30:53
decided. And I want to talk
30:54
about sirens as well. Right.
30:57
Who decided not to install sirens or to
31:01
take down their sirens and use that
31:05
budget to buy no weather radios and give
31:07
them to their OK. OK. Their citizens. So
31:11
it wasn't just the fact that they're just
31:12
taking it down because they don't want to
31:15
use them anymore. They're taking them
31:16
down, but replacing them with something
31:17
probably a little bit more with more
31:19
information like these no radios.
31:21
More information and a radio signal
31:23
reaches a lot further than a siren. True.
31:26
And, you know, many studies have happened
31:29
where, you know, sirens have been put in
31:32
places and unfortunately they're not made
31:34
to penetrate your house. Right.
31:37
So you may not hear a siren. You may be
31:40
watching TV. You may be having your
31:42
headphones on. You may be sleeping and
31:45
you don't hear the sirens. Now, people
31:47
who live close to the sirens are going to
31:49
hear them. But there have been instances
31:52
around the country where towns have
31:54
invested in these sirens. And, you know,
31:56
you're talking anywhere between 100 and
31:59
$500,000 a year. You know, you have to
32:03
pay for maintenance and,
32:05
you know, keeping the sirens.
32:06
You know, keeping them up, installing
32:08
them, you know, all that kind of stuff.
32:11
What else can you do with that money that
32:13
might give everybody an alert in their
32:16
own home and know whether radio is
32:19
certainly an option? Yeah.
32:22
What's interesting, too, is that you
32:24
think about radios. You know, when I grew
32:28
up, radio was a was a still pretty big
32:31
thing. You listen to it in your car. You
32:32
could listen to them at home.
32:34
You know, there was no iPhones or MP3s or
32:38
Internet even when I, you know, in the
32:39
80s when I was a kid. And so radios were
32:42
a pretty big thing. When my parents were
32:44
growing up, that's what they listened to.
32:46
That was their entertainment. So
32:47
everything was listened over the radio.
32:50
We have a lot of different technologies
32:52
nowadays in our homes, phones, wireless
32:56
internet, you know, TVs and so forth.
33:01
And those can go down. Power outages can
33:03
really go. The radio frequencies from
33:05
these radios really are powerful. Do you
33:08
think that even though it's so powerful,
33:11
people don't think they're as advanced
33:13
because they're, you know, from a
33:17
futuristic standpoint, they look like
33:20
they're old technology and some people
33:21
may not rely on them as much.
33:23
Do you think is it do you think there's
33:25
has has that ever come across your
33:27
conversations with the maybe lack of
33:30
uptake from from some communities? Yeah,
33:33
I really haven't heard that. You know,
33:35
the fact that it's a radio people might
33:38
not be interested in using it. They'd
33:41
rather, you know, have some AI bot
33:43
blanket their phone or
33:45
something, you know, right.
33:47
And the problem is that in many areas,
33:51
particularly very rural areas, there may
33:56
not be cellular signals. And if you don't
34:00
have a cellular signal, then you're
34:01
basically carrying a brick around in your
34:04
pocket. That's not going to tell you
34:06
anything. And the no weather radio does
34:10
penetrate much more of the
34:13
geography and people can get it.
34:15
Now, I do think that it's really an
34:18
awareness thing where people don't know
34:24
about no weather radio. It's been around
34:26
for more than 50 years. The it's being
34:31
threatened by cuts budget cuts. You know,
34:36
if the National Weather Service continues
34:38
to take budget cuts, they've been
34:40
protecting no weather radio for now.
34:43
But pretty soon, you know, if they keep
34:46
getting cut, that's going to be something
34:48
that they can't afford to maintain. So
34:51
then this so this and then when you mean
34:52
by that, sorry to interrupt when you when
34:54
you mean by that, it's not the people who
34:56
manufacture the actual radios.
34:58
It's a signal that goes out to the radios
35:00
to maintain that awareness. That's right.
35:04
Because because they used to have like
35:06
when no weather radio first started, they
35:08
installed all these antennas,
35:10
transmission antennas, yeah, around the
35:12
country for to broadcast the signals.
35:16
And then that got really expensive to
35:18
maintain. So they started leasing space
35:20
off of existing radio towers and towers
35:24
that that exist out there.
35:25
Well, I mean, that's like rent.
35:27
It keeps going up. And so they're
35:31
struggling with increased costs to
35:36
maintain the transmitter and to keep it
35:39
on the tower that they they have it on
35:41
now. Because when they issue from each
35:46
forecast office, when they issue the
35:48
warning and they that automatically
35:51
activates the signal that sets the no
35:54
weather radios off. Right.
35:55
So the weather service doesn't make the
35:57
no weather radios, but they provide the
35:59
content that's going to save your life.
36:02
Right. Which is if the most important,
36:05
right, is you've got the device, they
36:07
want to get you the information to go to
36:09
that device and get it.
36:10
I want to kind of just talk a little bit
36:13
about some of the stuff that's been said
36:14
over the last week or so in terms of what
36:18
may have happened, what may not have
36:19
happened. It sounds just from our
36:21
conversation that alerts went out.
36:22
But there could have been a lot of ways
36:25
that people didn't get alerts, lack of
36:26
cell service, lack of the technology like
36:29
the radio that would have it power
36:32
outages. So, you know, again, lack of
36:35
ability to get that that data to them or
36:37
those alerts to people.
36:40
We talk about cuts. We talk about the
36:42
cuts that were coming, the cuts that have
36:43
happened to the National Weather Service
36:44
to NOAA over the last couple of months
36:47
has been very quick. And I know things,
36:49
you know, things move slowly in
36:52
government. A lot of the times we know
36:53
National Weather
36:54
Service budget's been cut.
37:06
And I think that's a great question of
37:06
alerts not going out due to whatever
37:09
reason, whether they were cuts, whether
37:10
it was like a mistake, whether or is that
37:12
an investigation that that's got to
37:14
happen after where we
37:15
can get full answers?
37:16
Yeah, no, I mean, and that's that's a
37:18
that's a popular question, too. Yeah. Did
37:20
did the cuts impact the issuance of the
37:23
warning? Right now, there doesn't seem to
37:27
be a direct correlation between cuts and
37:34
the warning went out late.
37:35
Right. The National Weather Service
37:37
Office in New Braunfels in San Antonio,
37:41
they had extra meteorologists on staff
37:44
than they normally would. Okay. Because
37:47
of the possibility or the likelihood of
37:51
flooding happening. But where I do think
37:54
it could have made a difference. And, you
37:59
know, it can't be proven right now.
38:02
And that is that their warning
38:05
coordination meteorologist every office
38:08
has what they call a WCM a warning
38:11
coordination meteorologist and their job.
38:14
One of their jobs is to be the liaison
38:18
between the emergency managers and the
38:21
National Weather Service towns and the
38:24
National Weather Service and any other
38:27
organizations that, you know, have an
38:30
interest in getting warning information.
38:33
And so these warning coordination
38:36
meteorologists are just like every other
38:38
employee. They were offered the early
38:41
buyouts to retire as a as a point of
38:45
force reduction mandated, you know,
38:49
across the government.
38:52
And the warning coordination
38:53
meteorologist took an early retirement
38:57
about eight months ago and they have not
39:03
been replaced. And so, you know, my as a
39:08
meteorologist, I'm thinking, well, that
39:12
warning coordination meteorologist
39:13
between eight months ago and now could
39:17
have been visiting all those places
39:18
telling them about the
39:20
importance of the flood warnings.
39:21
Telling them the importance of, hey, we
39:24
can flood really quickly. Be ready. We're
39:27
going to issue these alerts. Would he
39:29
have done that? I don't know. But the job
39:32
of the WCM is to be that liaison and to
39:36
make sure the emergency management
39:38
community understands
39:40
how the process works.
39:42
The other thing I don't know is the
39:46
people that this warning coordination
39:47
meteorologist was had such great
39:49
relationships with. Did any of them
39:52
change in the last eight months? And if
39:55
any of those changed in the last eight
39:57
months, were they getting any instruction
39:59
for what those warnings mean and how
40:03
should they act? Should they hear it?
40:05
What kind of connectivity back to the
40:07
weather service?
40:08
Because there is a channel.
40:11
There's a feedback channel. It's called
40:12
NWS Chat. Right. Where the emergency
40:17
managers and media can be in a direct
40:20
chat with meteorologists at the weather
40:23
service. Right. You know, what kind of
40:25
activity was going on there?
40:28
That's more to issue even more warnings
40:31
to the public to even like help boost the
40:33
information getting out. Is that it?
40:35
Well, I think more up to date warnings
40:36
were about not issuing more warnings. But
40:39
what do you do when you receive this
40:42
warning? Ah, OK. Gotcha. So so more
40:45
helpful tips and stuff. Yeah, there's a
40:47
there's a flood flash flood emergency.
40:49
We're issuing that should have made every
40:53
emergency manager and every police
40:55
officer get up and go down to that riverbank to try to get out.
40:58
Right. Yeah. Yeah. They know that, you
41:02
know, so there's an education behind that
41:05
as well. And I just wanted to mention,
41:07
too, that and I haven't been able to
41:10
confirm it, but I've seen it in some
41:12
media reports. And I know that those
41:13
specific media get multiple. They have to
41:16
get multiple confirmations before they
41:18
report it. And that is, is that Kerr
41:21
County had the option or an opportunity
41:23
to install a siren system
41:27
along the Guadalupe River.
41:28
Where this flood happened back in 2016 or
41:33
2017 and they refused to do it. Why? I
41:40
don't know. I didn't see the study that
41:42
was done to say it's not worth it or
41:45
whatever. I have heard officials say that
41:50
installing an alert system is expensive.
41:54
And so that just leads you to answer that question.
41:56
Well, what's expensive and at what price?
42:03
Yeah, well, it was a priority here.
42:05
Something is more expensive. And what did
42:08
you buy with that money that could have
42:12
been that could have put in an alerting
42:14
system. So I'm sure I will guarantee it
42:19
1000% that there's going to be a lot of
42:23
pressure to get some sort of alerting system.
42:25
I personally think throughout the country
42:29
that this flood will lead to some sort of
42:33
major change in the way that flood
42:37
warnings are issued and consumed. And the
42:43
question is going to be how long will
42:45
that take? And, you know, I mean, Andrew,
42:49
we're talking about this flood.
42:49
It happened less than a week ago or a
42:55
week ago actually today. And six months
43:00
down the road, will anybody
43:02
be thinking of flash flooding?
43:05
Well, and you're right. And I think it's
43:06
important. This is, we had this, like I
43:09
mentioned, we had flash flooding, not as
43:11
bad obviously, but it was pretty bad. But
43:16
nobody followed up. I had it in my neighborhood in Pittsburgh.
43:18
I had it in my neighborhood and certain
43:19
parts of my neighborhood. And I followed
43:20
up with the people happened twice in in
43:22
in a year, less than a year. And then
43:25
because there weren't any fatalities,
43:28
thank God, and knock on
43:29
whether it doesn't happen.
43:31
People's places, properties got damaged
43:33
and and it happened twice. So they had to
43:35
put in two insurance claims now that
43:37
people are concerned that over time, like
43:40
those insurance is going to go up or not
43:41
covered. And and no, but nobody followed
43:45
up with the region,
43:47
with the city government.
43:48
They were just worried about their own,
43:50
you know, insurance costs. And just to
43:53
your to your point of in six months from
43:55
now, is this going to be kind of washed
43:58
aside and no pun intended, of course. And
44:01
people aren't just are
44:02
just going to forget about it.
44:03
Assuming that it's going to be dealt
44:06
with, you know, that the people that they
44:08
voted into power to say, Hey, you know
44:10
what, we need to we need to deal with
44:12
this, we need to put in this iron system,
44:14
because obviously, it would have helped.
44:16
We didn't do it the first time. This is
44:17
our chance to do it. But people, I feel
44:19
that they need to follow up.
44:21
They need to continue, especially if
44:22
you're in an area that's vulnerable and
44:24
you may or may not be able to move out of
44:26
that area or you want to continue to stay
44:27
in that area. I feel like you almost have
44:29
to have like put committees together,
44:31
citizen committees to make
44:33
sure that that that's followed up.
44:35
It's so important to do that. And I
44:37
think, you know, in Kerr County, Texas, I
44:40
don't think they'll ever forget when you
44:43
get outside of Texas and around the
44:45
country, there are probably.
44:49
you know, Kerr County, Texas tomorrow.
45:00
And will people see this as a reason to
45:06
make them move faster in getting alert
45:09
systems or understanding what's
45:12
available, putting things in place,
45:15
getting meteorologists in to talk to them about what's going on in the world.
45:18
And I think that's something that we're going to have to do to make sure that we have the right resources to be able to
45:18
take the risk and what their risk
45:20
tolerance is, because communities could
45:24
come together and say, you know what?
45:26
We want to. And this is something they
45:29
don't do today, but could be in the
45:32
future where communities work together to
45:34
say, okay, this is our risk tolerance.
45:44
Instead of the government coming in
45:46
saying we're going to issue a warning
45:48
because we think this is what it should
45:51
be. Yeah. If you get more community
45:53
involvement and buy in from people as to
45:57
what you're trying to do, I think you'll
45:59
get more longevity in people thinking
46:03
about it and feeling more comfortable
46:05
with the risk that
46:07
that they're undertaking.
46:09
I agree. I agree completely. That
46:11
feedback mechanism is so important
46:14
because that's what makes a community.
46:17
That's not just don't just let government
46:18
make all the decisions, but be involved
46:20
in the government and be involved with
46:22
what happens around your town city.
46:24
Obviously, you know, not not trying to
46:26
blame on anybody in this situation. This
46:28
is devastating. You know, our hearts go
46:32
out to all the people affected who have
46:35
lost their loved ones and are still
46:36
looking for those. It
46:37
must be a horrible situation.
46:39
We don't want to see this situation
46:41
happen again ever, you know, and to
46:44
protect that we know the ways I think
46:47
this also speaks to a couple of things.
46:52
One that we need to invest in these
46:54
monetarily as well
46:56
funding wise into these systems.
46:58
They're not cheap for a lot of times, but
47:01
they are effective when they're in. They
47:03
can save a lot of people's lives. So I
47:05
think that's that's important. I think
47:07
also the fact that, you know, we we
47:09
pretty much went through this this
47:10
episode without really talking about
47:12
climate change too much.
47:14
And we didn't have to because flooding is
47:16
enough. Like we know the risks of
47:17
flooding. We know it's being it's made
47:20
worse by climate change, but people see
47:22
this and this is a danger and like an
47:25
extreme danger to people immediately. And
47:28
this needs to be fixed.
47:29
And so there's a lot of things that we
47:30
can do in the short term and in the long
47:33
term to ensure that we can predict these
47:36
things a little bit faster just from a
47:39
you know, where it doesn't just sneak up
47:41
on us and also making sure that we have
47:43
connectivity so that people can get
47:46
alerts and all the
47:46
different ways of getting alerts.
47:48
You know, as far as I'm concerned, like
47:50
if you're in one of those areas,
47:52
everybody should be given a radio, you
47:54
know, like that should come to the house
47:55
or apartment or anything, right?
47:57
I agree. And you know, another important
48:00
thing is is because we're in a new
48:03
paradigm and you're right. We don't have
48:04
to talk about climate change. All we have
48:07
to talk about is there's more moisture in
48:09
the atmosphere. And yes, the atmosphere
48:11
is warmer. So you're adding more
48:13
ingredients to create
48:15
floods in many more locations.
48:16
And we also want to make sure that people
48:23
understand we are in that new paradigm.
48:28
So forecasts of flash flooding are going
48:32
to be more numerous. We're going to talk
48:35
about that a little bit more and that
48:38
that we need the research, right?
48:43
We need research in science to understand
48:48
how the atmosphere is transforming and
48:52
how fast it's transforming because that
48:55
one in one thousand year flood that
48:58
everybody's talking about may become a
49:01
one in 10 year flood at that magnitude.
49:04
But then 10 years from now, it may become
49:08
a one in two year flood. Yeah. And so if
49:12
that happens, that has to change
49:16
everyone's planning for community
49:19
development, urbanization,
49:22
planning, storm drain size.
49:24
What kind of what kind of modifications
49:28
are cities and towns going to need to to
49:35
manage that kind of rainfall? Absolutely.
49:39
You said it perfectly. I think it's
49:43
funding needs to go in that and that can
49:45
be costly, but it's necessary.
49:46
And I think a lot of times it gets passed
49:49
up and it's deemed unnecessary for
49:52
whatever reason, whether it's political,
49:54
whether it's it's budgetary. But you're
49:57
right. We do need to understand our
49:58
system more. We are in an ever changing
50:00
world more than ever.
50:02
And we need to we need to have a better
50:05
understanding of how we can adapt to it
50:07
and change it. So that hopefully that's
50:09
why research needs to be funded.
50:11
Absolutely. Absolutely.
50:12
David, I want to thank you so much for
50:15
spending some time with me today. I know
50:17
you're busy. I appreciate all the work
50:19
you do and all the work your colleagues
50:20
do and appreciate you coming here and
50:24
giving information to our audience, you
50:26
know, sifting through all the stuff on
50:28
the news and being able to provide us
50:30
with ways people get alerts as well as
50:33
ways they can get alerts and how they can
50:35
get in the future if they need it.
50:36
So if everybody can go out and get your
50:38
NOAA watch radio, go out and get it
50:40
because it's very important to do so.
50:43
I'll put it if I can find some links.
50:44
I'll put a link if you can if you can
50:46
purchase it online or something. So
50:48
again, Dave, thank you so
50:49
much. We really do appreciate it.
50:51
Great. Thank you, Andrew. Thanks for
50:52
having me. No problem.
50:54
Thank you, Dave, for joining us on
50:57
today's episode of the How to Protect the
50:59
Ocean podcast and providing us all that
51:00
information. A lot of the stuff I didn't
51:02
know about and I thought it was really
51:03
interesting to find out, you know, after
51:06
all this gets sorted investigations
51:09
happen, people get to mourn their loss,
51:12
people get to understand what happened
51:13
and what they can do in the future.
51:14
I hope that there are critical and
51:18
constructive conversations from a
51:20
government level and community levels
51:22
with their governments in order to better
51:25
protect themselves. Forget the political
51:27
side of everything. Forget the two sides
51:31
to every political aisle. Forget the
51:33
climate change political aspect. Let's
51:36
protect people. Let's make sure that we can be safe in our own communities, you know, whether in the US, whether you're in Canada, whether you're in Europe, whether you're in the US, whether you're in Canada, whether you're in Europe.
51:38
It doesn't matter. We want to make sure
51:45
that we're protected and governments and
51:48
communities need to come together to be
51:50
able to ensure that these are protected.
51:52
This has nothing to do with political
51:53
affiliations. This has to do with
51:55
protecting people, with protecting
51:57
children. You know, 27 children were
52:01
killed because they were at a camp that
52:02
were on the Guadalupe River and that is unacceptable. That cannot happen again. And we need to protect the people.
52:04
And that is unacceptable. That cannot
52:06
happen again. And we need to better
52:08
prepare for these types of storms, not
52:10
only from just a receiving and providing
52:13
alerts, but also the infrastructure of
52:16
where things can be built, where things
52:18
can go in the future. And I think that's
52:20
really important discussions to have in
52:22
the future, even in my community up here
52:24
in Canada, in Burlington, Ontario.
52:26
So I want to thank you everybody for
52:28
joining us today. I'd love to hear your
52:30
feedback and leave a comment on the
52:31
YouTube channel if you're watching this
52:32
on YouTube, or if you're listening to
52:34
this on your favorite podcast app, you
52:35
can hit me up on my website,
52:37
speakupforblue.com forward slash contact,
52:40
leave me an email. If you have any
52:42
questions for myself or
52:43
Dave, I'll pass it on to him.
52:44
It goes right to my personal email, or
52:46
you can hit me up on Instagram at how to
52:49
protect the ocean. It's at how to protect
52:51
the ocean. Just DM me. I want to thank
52:52
you so much for joining us on today's
52:54
episode of the how to protect the ocean
52:55
podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from
52:57
the true North strong and free. Have a
52:59
good day. We'll talk to you
53:00
next time and happy conservation.