Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / HUBBY BEHEADED IN GARAGE, WIFE IN LAKE TIED TO CEMENT BLOCK, FEDS WANT HELP

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HUBBY BEHEADED IN GARAGE, WIFE IN LAKE TIED TO CEMENT BLOCK, FEDS WANT HELP · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Tonight, neighbors living in fear. The husband found beheaded in
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: his garage, his wife deep in a lake, tied to
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: a cement chunk. At this hour, the FBI renewing their
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: calls for help in solving the murders of Russell and
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Shirley Dermond. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: want to thank you for being with us to Lake Oconey, Georgia,
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  Speaker 2: investigators begging for help to figure out who murdered Russell
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: and Shirley Dermined neighbors find Russell's decapitated body in his
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Putnam County garage, behind one of the couple's cars, parked
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  Speaker 2: neatly inside. His head nowhere to be found. His wife,
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Shirley's body found tied to a cement chum at the
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: bottom of Lake Oconey. Seemingly at this hour, investigators no
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: closer to solving the double murder. What happened?
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  Speaker 3: Russell and Shirley Durmond are happily married and living in
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  Speaker 3: a beautiful lakefront property Lake of Coney, Georgia. The couple
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: is expected at a Kentucky derby watch party with neighbors,
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  Speaker 3: but don't show up. When the neighbors reach out by phone,
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  Speaker 3: the Dermins don't pick up. Days later, however, arriving at
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: the Dormoin's home, the neighbor's surprised to find the front
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  Speaker 3: door unlocked, calling out their names, nobody replies with.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Me in allstar panel to make since we sense of
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: what we know right now about the dorman's disappearance, and
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: I want to go first to a special guest joining
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: us from Putnam County. The elected sheriff, Sheriff Howard Seals.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: Sheriff Seals, thank you for being with us. Isn't it
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  Speaker 2: odd that the smallest detail can raise the red alarm right,
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: the flag of alarm.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: When this neighbor realized.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: That the door was not secure, that it was unlocked,
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  Speaker 2: right then, the neighbor knew something was terribly wrong.
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: A lot of suspects, but a lot of people there
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: in this community still don't lock the doors.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Nancy, Yeah, you know what. I'm very familiar with Putnam County.
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  Speaker 2: I was the camp counselor there at the National Forest,
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  Speaker 2: the four h Rock Eagle Camp, and it is beautiful,
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  Speaker 2: but it's also very densely forested with a lot of lakes.
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  Speaker 2: And this home was on the beautiful Lake Ocony. Those
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: are beautiful homes right there, all the lake.
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  Speaker 4: Right well, this is very well. This was part of
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  Speaker 4: Reynolds at Lake o'cony, so a very exclusive neighborhood of
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  Speaker 4: very expensive homes.
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  Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan is joining me.
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  Speaker 2: Professor forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath
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  Speaker 2: My Feet, death investigator and host of a Hites Body
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  Speaker 2: Bags is Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, you and I
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  Speaker 2: have been to the scene and a very very extensively
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  Speaker 2: walked the area. Not only is the dense forest an issue,
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: but the fact that this is such a high end property,
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: a gated community where crime is very very low.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: That's the first oddity in this case.
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  Speaker 4: You know, sheriff.
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  Speaker 5: The sheriff had mentioned this being rentals rentals Plantation For
• 3:35
  Speaker 5: those of us from anywhere around South approximate in this area,
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  Speaker 5: we're very familiar with this location. You're talking about very
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: high end living and you have an expectation of safety
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: in these particular parts where you know something this horrible
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: and this is at the top of the scale. Nancy,
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  Speaker 5: as far as cases go that we've been covering low
• 3:57
  Speaker 5: these many years, you don't expect something this horrific to
• 4:02
  Speaker 5: have occurred in this Rather, I don't know how to
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  Speaker 5: say it other than just kind of safe and bucolic
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  Speaker 5: location here on this beautiful leke ocone, and you begin
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  Speaker 5: to think about points of access. How in the world
• 4:15
  Speaker 5: would somebody be brave enough to go into this location
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  Speaker 5: and how did they access this home in this gated community,
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  Speaker 5: And it smacks a level of familiarity with the area
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  Speaker 5: to me, it always has at least.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, hold on right there, Joe Scott.
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  Speaker 2: Everything you're saying is absolutely correct, but I want to
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  Speaker 2: hone in on it before.
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  Speaker 1: I miss a point.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I feel like an English teacher, you know
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  Speaker 2: how they dissect the sentences on the blackboard.
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  Speaker 5: Yes, and don't ask me what a jarin is because
• 4:47
  Speaker 5: I still have to figure that out.
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  Speaker 2: But you just gave me so much information and everybody
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  Speaker 2: on the panel do I have to remind you we're
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: not having high tea at Buckingham Palace. Jump in if
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: you have a thought, because although the sheriff has been
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: working this case, I'm sure he's open to any new ideas.
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  Speaker 2: Joe Scott, you mentioned the level of familiarity. As you said, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: if somebody said to me, okay, I want you to
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  Speaker 2: fly over to Oregon, and I want you to find
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  Speaker 2: Oregon Forest Tree neighborhood and go to this certain house,
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  Speaker 2: I would not have any idea what they were talking about.
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  Speaker 2: Right where in Oregon? And you know how wooded Oregon is.
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  Speaker 2: So where is this neighborhood? It's gated. How am I
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  Speaker 2: going to get in unless I climb over a fence?
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  Speaker 2: And do I have access to get in? And then
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  Speaker 2: you go back through all these windy roads. How are
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  Speaker 2: you going to find the place? How are you going
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  Speaker 2: to find the victims? How are you going to dispose
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  Speaker 2: of the wife? With nobody seeing or hearing a thing?
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  Speaker 1: And I grew up on a red dirt road, Joe Scott,
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  Speaker 1: as you know.
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  Speaker 2: So when you refer to quote I in living, what
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  Speaker 2: exactly do you mean by that?
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  Speaker 4: Let me just say this. We've got a link that
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  Speaker 4: spans five counties and the opportunity to get there by
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: water is infinitestible. Okay. Likewise, and when you talk about
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  Speaker 4: where do you go? If you're looking for Russell Durman,
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  Speaker 4: you can go on the website of the Puttnam County
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  Speaker 4: tax as Sisters website and find out exactly We won't click.
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  Speaker 1: But that would.
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  Speaker 2: And you're right, you're totally right about all of what
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  Speaker 2: you just said, Sheriff.
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  Speaker 1: But that takes me to someone with a boat. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: that means money.
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  Speaker 2: Somebody with a boat on Lake Oconey, which narrows my
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: suspect pool. Somebody that would take a boat to their home, docket,
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  Speaker 2: commit the murders, and then take the wife's body tied
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  Speaker 2: to a cement rock chuck out into the water.
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  Speaker 1: Who would approach this by boat?
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  Speaker 2: And as far as the tax assessment, you're right again
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  Speaker 2: share of sales, But that tells me a lot about
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  Speaker 2: the purp. Somebody that's familiar with the computer. Somebody would think, hey,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: if I go to the tax assessor's website, I can
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  Speaker 2: find this guy that's very targeted. So, Scott, when you
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  Speaker 2: refer to high end living, what's that?
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  Speaker 5: Well, you think you have access to all of these
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  Speaker 5: amenities around there, not just the lake, but very high
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  Speaker 5: end golfing. If anyone's ever heard of Rentald's plantation, this
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  Speaker 5: is not, you know, something just somebody off the street
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  Speaker 5: can walk in and afford to do and that tells
• 7:37
  Speaker 5: you a lot about the Germans, I think, relative to
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  Speaker 5: the life that they had chosen to live in this
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  Speaker 5: supposedly secure location where they could live out their golden
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  Speaker 5: years in this particular spot. And back to the lake
• 7:51
  Speaker 5: just one more second here, going to familiarity, I think
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  Speaker 5: that it's key because unless it was perhaps a neighbor
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  Speaker 5: that had access to to a boat that could do
• 8:01
  Speaker 5: this sort of thing, we have to think about, well,
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  Speaker 5: how familiar they with local boat ramps where you can
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  Speaker 5: launch a boat to get into this location, and you
• 8:10
  Speaker 5: begin to think about nighttime and being able to kind
• 8:14
  Speaker 5: of navigate your way through this environment, and the placement
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  Speaker 5: of the remains is certainly key here as well.
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  Speaker 2: So bottom line, let me understand, this is Dave mag
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  Speaker 2: joining me Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter, the cheapest
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  Speaker 2: house you can get, and when you or Joe Scott
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  Speaker 2: Morgan referring to high end living his words, not mine,
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  Speaker 2: I'm trying to get my head wrapped around that, because
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  Speaker 2: we thought we were living high end when we finally
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  Speaker 2: got a washer and a dryer. Yeah, washer and dryer.
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  Speaker 2: That was the big time for us, and we would
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  Speaker 2: all just go look at it. We were not allowed
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  Speaker 2: to touch it, of course, until we learned how to
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  Speaker 2: use it. But that said, did you know, Dave Matt,
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  Speaker 2: that the cheapest, the cheapest house you can get at
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  Speaker 2: this rentals plantation on this lake is in the over
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  Speaker 2: five hundred thousand dollars approaching six hundred thousand.
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  Speaker 1: That's the cheapest.
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  Speaker 3: It's an amazing, beautiful place.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And you know, Dave Matt, as you and I have
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  Speaker 2: discussed many many times off camera, I don't care if
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  Speaker 2: the victims are rich, poor, middle class, if they got
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: a PhD or they dropped.
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  Speaker 1: Out in third grade, don't care.
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  Speaker 2: My point is the level of crime in this gated
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  Speaker 2: community with multimillion dollar dollar homes on the lake front
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  Speaker 2: is zero. I mean, nobody is getting murdered, much less
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  Speaker 2: beheaded in this area.
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  Speaker 1: That's where I'm headed, Dave Matt.
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  Speaker 3: Nancy, when you really look at this, Okay, and no,
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  Speaker 3: nobody's getting beheaded, nobody's getting kidnapped, nobody's getting murdered in
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  Speaker 3: this beautiful place. But now see this wasn't even a robbery. Okay,
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  Speaker 3: the limited the level of crime here is very very low.
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  Speaker 3: But again remember here we have two people dead in
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  Speaker 3: the most heineous way you can imagine, And yet there wasn't.
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  Speaker 3: It wasn't like there was a robbery going on and
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  Speaker 3: they surprised the burglars and it blew up. There was
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  Speaker 3: no robbery, There was nothing taken. And by the way,
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  Speaker 3: doesn't even look like there's any evidence inside the house
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  Speaker 3: that they were killed inside the house.
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  Speaker 2: Who would be had the dad and tie this grandma
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  Speaker 2: to a cement chunk and throw her to the bottom
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  Speaker 2: of the lake. Who this is not your ordinary barbral
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  Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics. So we're looking at an
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  Speaker 2: entirely different suspect pool.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, you certainly are. You're looking at somebody that has
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  Speaker 5: that has a certain level of planning. You know, this
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  Speaker 5: is not obviously some kind of spotaneous event where one
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  Speaker 5: person says something it makes somebody angry and they just
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  Speaker 5: fly off the handle and you've got an assault at least,
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  Speaker 5: so homicide, nothing like that. This takes preparation, It takes
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  Speaker 5: tom And again I come back to this benchmark throughout
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  Speaker 5: this entire case. It involves familiarity with the location, you know,
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  Speaker 5: access and opportunity. How could you know this? How could
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  Speaker 5: you be aware of tomlines? How could you be aware
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  Speaker 5: of where to deposit a body and to do it
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  Speaker 5: in a stealthy manner.
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  Speaker 1: Guys, I want to go back to this saying what
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  Speaker 1: can we learn?
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  Speaker 3: Listen, the same neighbor designs to look in the garage
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: to see if the Drmoin's car is there. It's there
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  Speaker 3: in the garage. The neighbor discovers Russell Durmant laying on
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  Speaker 3: the garage floor decapitated.
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  Speaker 2: So the neighbor realizes that something is very wrong. To
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  Speaker 2: doctor John Delatory, psychologist and mediator who specializes in forensic psychology,
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: and you can find him at resolutecs dot com. Doctor Delatory,
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  Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. There's no sex attack
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  Speaker 2: and there's no robbery. Who would go to the effort.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not just killing this beloved couple, not just killing them,
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  Speaker 2: but decapitating the father and tying the mom to a
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  Speaker 2: cement chunk and throwing her in the water.
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  Speaker 1: Why.
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  Speaker 6: I think this is someone who feels offended. They somehow,
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  Speaker 6: the Dermans offended this individual. The Germans may not even
• 12:35
  Speaker 6: know what they did, or they might not even know
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  Speaker 6: who this perpetrator actually was, but this person felt offended
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  Speaker 6: by what was going on, and I think he was offended.
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  Speaker 6: I say he is more likely he is the offender,
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  Speaker 6: is that he But I think he was offended by
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  Speaker 6: mister Dermot. I think a lot of it is probably
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  Speaker 6: targeted because of whatever.
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  Speaker 7: It was that that he was doing.
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  Speaker 6: I think this is I think he wanted mister Dermott
• 13:02
  Speaker 6: to watch what the offender was going to do to
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  Speaker 6: Missus Dermott. I think that there's a lot more sort
• 13:08
  Speaker 6: of internal struggle strife, that there's a lot of anger
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  Speaker 6: that is associated with this that I'm not even sure
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  Speaker 6: this family even knew existed or even knew that this
• 13:18
  Speaker 6: person existed before it all happened.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Okay, to Sheriff Howard Seals, joining us said, look Sheriff,
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  Speaker 2: they're at Putnam County. Sheriff Seals, we hear doctor Jelatre
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  Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that he's wrong, but let's analyze it.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Let's follow it through to its logical conclusion. Someone angry
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  Speaker 2: with mister Dermott, angry about what, angry about what he
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: was doing.
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  Speaker 1: What was he doing?
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: Well, I don't know that, but I agree with his
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: assessment of that because the assault of missus Dermot was
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: quite violent. She was struck multiple times through the skull
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: with something like a hammer. I don't know if it
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: was a hammer, but something like that. And that's particularly violent.
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  Speaker 4: And there's some evidence that we have that I don't
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: want to go into great detail, that mister Drman was
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: present when that occurred. We do not believe she was
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: killed at the house, and we believe he was shot
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: only because there was some gunshot residue on his shirt.
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  Speaker 4: So it's very much about a crime, very much pointed
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  Speaker 4: toward them. We've never thought otherwise. It's but through you
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: cannot imagine what we've done from the standpoint of technology,
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: bank records. I mean, you just can't imagine. But we
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: just simply have not been able to find that individual
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: that would have had that type of animosity so far.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: Russell Durman's body is found lying between the two cars
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  Speaker 3: in the garage. He's wearing a short sleeve shirt and
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: a pair of boxers and he's found lying on top
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: of a rope while his slippers are tossed to the side.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: Russell Drman's beaar feet aer stained with blood and there's
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: a faint red trail smeared from the door all the
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: way to his body. Cows have been placed around impresumably
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: to prevent blood from leaking under the garage door. His
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: hands are bruised and bloody, with a severe gash on
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: the left index.
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: Finger.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: Strands of Surelelyy Durman's hairritangle within Russell Durmant's fingers, suggesting
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: a struggle between de Durman's and their attacker.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: Boy, do I need a professor of forensics right now?
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan? Do you hear all that that's a
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: lot of forensic evidence to wade through?
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: It certainly is, and you begin to think about the
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: dynamics of the attack, as Sheriff had mentioned earlier on
• 15:34
  Speaker 5: Missus Dermot, which is quite intriguing from a forensic standpoint
• 15:39
  Speaker 5: when you talk about what type of weapon this individual
• 15:42
  Speaker 5: showed up with or perhaps access from the home in
• 15:46
  Speaker 5: order to commit such an attack like this. It's very
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: upclose personal, very bloody affair, you would think. And then
• 15:55
  Speaker 5: you have this contact trace evidence that goes over to
• 15:59
  Speaker 5: mister Durhmam. It gives you an idea of the intimacy.
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: The proximity of these two individuals is there as the
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: attack is going on, and you know for me. I'm
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: thinking what would be what would be the end game
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: here relative to one of these individuals who have been
• 16:18
  Speaker 5: married for years and years and years Nancy for the
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: purp to have terrorized them in front of one another.
• 16:28
  Speaker 5: And so that again goes to the dynamic of what
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: the individual is that they're looking for the purp has
• 16:37
  Speaker 5: against these individuals because the level of violence we're talking about.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: What do you make of the fact that Russell had
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: his wife's hair intertwined in his fingers.
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: I'd be interested to know how was it intertwined? Is
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: this something that had occurred as a result of hair
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: being pulled from her head by him? You have to
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: consider or that, And then you also have to think about, well,
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: if there's like a copious amount of blood. Sometimes you know,
• 17:06
  Speaker 5: we slough hair, and many times if you have this
• 17:09
  Speaker 5: tackiness on the surface of the of the hand and
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: you're in proximity to loose hair, that can transfer onto
• 17:16
  Speaker 5: the hand. So I'd have to know about the placement
• 17:18
  Speaker 5: of the hair. I'd like to know what his fingernails
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: look like if they and I'm sure that they probably did.
• 17:24
  Speaker 5: The State Medical Examiner's Office did nail trimmings and scrapings
• 17:27
  Speaker 5: on both of these end of it, Well, probably not
• 17:29
  Speaker 5: missus Dermot, that wouldn't have offered much information, but certainly
• 17:34
  Speaker 5: mister Dermot because he was found in a dry environment.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: I'm very curious because this reminds me of the Scott
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Peterson case where he murdered Lacey and his unborn child Connor.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Looking at these two in their youth, so in love.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Remember Joe Scott that Lacy's hair wasn't just sitting on
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: Scott Peterson's toolbox. It wasn't just sitting on a pair
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: of long nosed pliers. It was intertwined in the pliers. Now,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: how did that happen? Same thing here we've got to
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: find out. How was her hair on his hand? Was
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: it in between his fingers? Was it stuck on his
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: wedding band? Was it stuck in blood that had dried?
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: Did it come from her head? In other words, was
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: the root still attached, the nucleus still attached to the hair.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Was it a transfer from dragging his body across the
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: floor and he got a hair on his hands.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: We don't know the answer to that, and that's very important.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Would you agree, yes.
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: I would the dynamic that you're thinking about relative two
• 18:46
  Speaker 5: bodies after when you have a multiple homicide, for instance,
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: what's the perpetrator going to do with the bodies? And
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: let's just say, for instance, you have a circumstance where
• 18:59
  Speaker 5: you have two bodies that are essentially contacting one of
• 19:02
  Speaker 5: one another at least for a period of time. Any
• 19:05
  Speaker 5: number of things can transfer from one body to the other,
• 19:08
  Speaker 5: and I think probably the sheriff is certainly considering this
• 19:11
  Speaker 5: and this ongoing investigation. He has to it to think about,
• 19:14
  Speaker 5: you know, those points of contact along the way, both
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: inside the house, in the garage, and this mysterious vessel
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: that we might be talking about as well as here,
• 19:25
  Speaker 5: because you know, literally with that, with that boat, you've
• 19:28
  Speaker 5: got a floating crime scene as well.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: You really do.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Sheriff Howard steals with us. He elected sheriff in Putnam County.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: What about the hair, I've heard the description that it
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: was intertwined in his fingers.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: Is that correct?
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: We believe, and I believe what happened is mister Durman
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: reached out to block the blow against his wife's head
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: when they enter, and that caused the laceration. And this
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: and also it was a compound fracture in the finger,
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: and that's where the hair was. So I think that
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: he was actually attempting to defend the globo against his
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: wife and that's how it got in there. It's pretty clear.
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: That's what it is to me.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: The Feds rarely are stumped, but tonight they are begging
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: for help in solving the double murders of Russell and
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: Shirley Durmand. What happened there on the idyllic shores of
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: Lake o'coney. Kristin Middleman, the chief development officer at Authram Labs.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: You can find her at DNA solves dot com. A
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: renowned scientist. And when I say she is a chief
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: development officer, she is a scientist, an expert, and edge
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: DNA technology. Doctor Bentleman, thank you for being with us.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: This has got to be a scientist like you. A dream,
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: a cornucopia of DNA evidence.
• 21:14
  Speaker 8: Actually it's a nightmare of DNA evidence because there are
• 21:18
  Speaker 8: so much blood, there is so much gruesomeness that belongs
• 21:21
  Speaker 8: to the victims in this crime scene that it overshadows
• 21:26
  Speaker 8: and overtakes the DNA evidence left by perpetrators. But yes,
• 21:32
  Speaker 8: there is definitely a lot of DNA evidence here, and
• 21:37
  Speaker 8: that's part of what makes this crime scene one where
• 21:41
  Speaker 8: you have to figure out multiple different types of evidence
• 21:47
  Speaker 8: to test to try to figure out who might have
• 21:50
  Speaker 8: committed this crime and if it was only one person
• 21:52
  Speaker 8: that committed this crime or multiple.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: Investigators began a neighborhood search and beyond for Surely Dermot
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: without success. The decapitated body of her husband, Russell Dermot,
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: was placed in the garage with towels placed around the body.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: Early on, investigators believed Russell was killed elsewhere and his
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: body brought to the garage because the towels appeared to
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: be placed around his body to prevent blood from seeping
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: out under the garage door. But there doesn't appear to
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: be as much blood in the towels as would be
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: expected had he been decapitated while still alive. Where his
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: body is found?
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Which to you, Sheriff Howard Seals, I led to Sheriff
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: Putnam County. Leads me to the question, if not murdered there,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: where were they killed and what was the purpose of
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: bringing them back to their own home?
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: Well, that's the million dollar question. If I probably knew
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: the answer, there'd be somebody in the back back here today,
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: but we don't believe obviously that she was killed there,
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: and while earth they would have brought his body back,
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: I do not know. He was certainly deceased at the
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: time of the decapital So this was more of a
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: preventive for the cop flud and things like that leaking
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: out from under the garad and door, I think, than
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: actual blood.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Scott Morgan joining us explain how a medical examiner can
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: determine if Russell was decapitated prior to his death, or
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: if that was the cause of the cause of death
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: or decapitated post mortem.
• 23:29
  Speaker 5: With a post mortem decapitation or any severance of any
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: appendance of the body, if it's in the post mortem state,
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: you're not going to have what we refer to as
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: these little focal which means very specific areas of hemorrhage
• 23:42
  Speaker 5: into the soft tissue. And what that means is that
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: as the body is being traumatized in life, the blood
• 23:49
  Speaker 5: will actually leach out into the surrounding tissue where the
• 23:53
  Speaker 5: trauma has occurred. When we're doing an examination of a
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: body and we see, for instance, something that's horrific, because
• 24:00
  Speaker 5: this we're going to look for hemorrhage. If you have, say,
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: what remains of the neck, you begin to kind of
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: circumferentially around the area where this has taken place. You're
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: going to look for hemorrhage in there. If you're absent
• 24:16
  Speaker 5: at hemorrhage, you can deduce at that point in tom
• 24:19
  Speaker 5: that you're looking at a post mortem or after death injury.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: And the sheriff seems very convinced. He stated, as a
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: matter of fact, that Russell was decapitated after he was killed.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: The theory is that there were at least two perpetrators.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: Why listen, Putnam County Sheriff Howard Sill says the evidence
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: points to at least two people being involved in the
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: murders of Russell and Shirley Durmott. The sheriff says he
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: believes the couple was murdered in a place as yet
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: unknown to investigators, and the double homicide appears to have
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: been personal, not something that happened during the commission of
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: another crime, such as a burglary, as nothing appears to
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: have been stolen.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: Sheriff, why are you convinced there were at least two
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: perpetrators that murdered these two well.
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: Missus Derman's body. I mean, we're talking about two bodies
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: here that were moved. She was disposed of by boat
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: five miles down the lake. And I just find it
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: almost impossible that one person could have picked up bodies
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: and things like that and moved them around from one
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: location to another much less six miles down the lake
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: than tied the bag with the box in it and
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: all that. I just found that highly unlikely at least two.
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: It wouldn't surprise me, quite candidly through a more.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Doctor Kristen Middleman joining us chief development officer at author
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Ram Labs, who specialize and degraded or even old DNA
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: really working miracles. Doctor Middleman, thank you for being with us.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: If you were advising a crew of forensics experts on
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: how and where they should look for DNA at this scene,
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: what would you tell them.
• 26:05
  Speaker 8: I would definitely look at everything that was just like
• 26:09
  Speaker 8: Joe said earlier, underneath fingernails, things that had touched the
• 26:12
  Speaker 8: body that may not have been overcome by all the
• 26:16
  Speaker 8: blood and all of the other fluids that were at
• 26:18
  Speaker 8: the crime scene because the victim was decapitated that was
• 26:23
  Speaker 8: found in the garage. You have a lot of DNA
• 26:29
  Speaker 8: that belongs to the victim that may overpower any touch
• 26:32
  Speaker 8: DNA or DNA that was found on the towel or
• 26:35
  Speaker 8: the robe or anything that was around that victim to
• 26:39
  Speaker 8: stop bleeding. And so those are things I would say,
• 26:43
  Speaker 8: try to find DNA that would be a higher mixture
• 26:46
  Speaker 8: of the perpetrator than it would be the victim, just
• 26:50
  Speaker 8: like skin cells, under fingernails or something the perpetrator may
• 26:54
  Speaker 8: have touched and not the victim or the victim's fluids.
• 26:59
  Speaker 8: Now the other thing is you said earlier that maybe
• 27:03
  Speaker 8: her fingernails wouldn't be useful because they were at the
• 27:05
  Speaker 8: bottom of a lake. I still think that DNA could
• 27:08
  Speaker 8: be pulled from something like that. We have identified people
• 27:13
  Speaker 8: that have been chopped to bits and the suitcases at
• 27:16
  Speaker 8: the bottom of a lake for decades, bottom of sewage tanks,
• 27:19
  Speaker 8: so we have figured out ways to overcome water and
• 27:23
  Speaker 8: degradation that comes contamination that comes with being in water
• 27:26
  Speaker 8: for a very long time. So I would still look
• 27:29
  Speaker 8: at that evidence as well. Maybe because her body was
• 27:33
  Speaker 8: discarded before it was manipulated as much as his by
• 27:36
  Speaker 8: the decapitation, maybe there would be more DNA and her
• 27:41
  Speaker 8: body that could be found that would be more perpetrator.
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: That would be my suggestion.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: There is no evidence to suggest either of the Dermans
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: were killed inside their house. There's also no evidence of
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: the exact time and date of their death. Caref Sills said,
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: surely Dermon was working on a crossword puzzle one of
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: us eighty day that's left on the kitchen table. The
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: Dermom's bed was unmade, and Russell Dermot was found laying
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: on top of his bathrobe wearing his boxers and a
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: T shirt. Which surely Dermom's body is found in Lega Koni,
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: she is completely dressed.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: To Sheriff Howard Zille's joining us from Putnam County Sheriff,
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: that tells you about what time of the day. Do
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: you think these two were murdered?
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: Well, again, we don't really know. Because of talking to
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: the durmom's children, we learned that when mister Dermot would
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: get up in the morning, if he didn't have anything
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: to do, that he would lounge around for several hours,
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: sometimes with his robe and bedclothes on. However, her custom
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: was when she got up, she immediately became dressed. We
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: do know that a man was seen or somebody was
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: seen in the yard on the Saturday before the Kentucky Derby.
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: So we we think because of all of that together
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: that this probably happened initially sometimes Saturday during the data.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm curious just looking at people's behavior. He still
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: had on his boxers and a T shirt. She was
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: doing the crossword puzzle. Joining me is doctor John Delatory,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: renownedd psychologist and mediator who specializes in forensic psychology.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Doctor Delatory number one.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: I need to know the date of the USA Today
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: crossword puzzle, and it is just striking me that this
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: was in the morning, which makes this even more of
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: an aberration, an oddity.
• 29:45
  Speaker 6: Yeah, because they're unprepared, right, there's nothing to suggest that
• 29:49
  Speaker 6: anything is going on in their daily lives that made
• 29:52
  Speaker 6: them afraid of whatever it is that's going on. Even
• 29:55
  Speaker 6: if there was an individual in their yard, it certainly
• 29:57
  Speaker 6: doesn't appear as though that individual shouldn't be right. So
• 30:01
  Speaker 6: there's a lot that's sort of just the routine, right,
• 30:04
  Speaker 6: the mundane, the regular things that these two individuals kind
• 30:07
  Speaker 6: of go through. They weren't expecting any of this to happen,
• 30:11
  Speaker 6: so they weren't prepared. This is not so much a
• 30:14
  Speaker 6: blitz attack because there's nothing to suggest in the home
• 30:17
  Speaker 6: that you know, all of a sudden there was some
• 30:18
  Speaker 6: kind of fight, But there is something in which they
• 30:21
  Speaker 6: were unprepared and they just kind of it was just unexpected,
• 30:26
  Speaker 6: and instead of using force, the individual probably used some
• 30:30
  Speaker 6: kind of coercive technique, whether it was a gun or
• 30:33
  Speaker 6: a weapon or something like that. But there was more coercion,
• 30:36
  Speaker 6: more verbal threats more than there was physical threats.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: Just Scott Morgan joining US Professor forensics. It's not all
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: about fingerprints and fibers.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Let's take a look at it.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Joe Scott number one, the date of the USA Today paper?
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Was it her custom to do the crossword in the mornings?
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Were coffee coffee cups sitting out on the kitchen? Was
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: there a pot of coffee still in the coffee maker?
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: Was there anything in the crock pot where their dishes
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: out from lunch or did it look more like dinner.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: We know that they didn't show up for the Kentucky
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: Derby party, so that gives us the clue as to
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: the end. They were dead by that time. What else
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: would you look for? Joe Scott well.
• 31:23
  Speaker 5: Sheriff sALS has done the right thing by going to
• 31:26
  Speaker 5: speak with the family, something we do in investigations to
• 31:30
  Speaker 5: just try to get a take a tempature of what
• 31:32
  Speaker 5: their daily routine looks like, and you have to try
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: to understand that and are there any moments in time
• 31:38
  Speaker 5: that deviate from that normal those normal behaviors moving forward.
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: I think that also one of the things. And if
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: we believe that there may have been more than one
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: individual involved in this, I think that it would be
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: very important to try to examine any kind of available
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: digit evidence that might be available from back during that
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: time period, as far as phone records, anything that came
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: off of any of the towers back then. I don't
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: know if that's necessarily possible, but it's certainly something that's intriguing.
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: If you've got one person in the yard, perhaps are
• 32:14
  Speaker 5: they communicating with someone else that could facilitate bringing a
• 32:18
  Speaker 5: boat around? Because that's the rub, isn't it. You know,
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: how do you get a boat into a location where
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: you're running the risk in broad daylight of people being
• 32:29
  Speaker 5: seen at their dock or their mooring location there? How
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: does this work? So there has to be communication involved
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: in this. I think that's that's certainly something to look at.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: And of course you know the age old question, doctor
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: John Delatory, You really think too or more people could
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: keep this quiet? No way, they had to tell a girlfriend,
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: a wife, a co conspirator. There was a reason for
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: this murder. Somebody has to know why, and that leads
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: you to who.
• 32:58
  Speaker 6: Again, it leads me to someone that felt offended by
• 33:01
  Speaker 6: whatever Russell Derman was doing, whatever.
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: It was that he was involved in.
• 33:07
  Speaker 6: Now, this could have been an ex employee, this could
• 33:09
  Speaker 6: have been this could have been anybody.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: But when you say involved in, wait a minute, that
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: makes it sound like it's a victim's fault. How do
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: I know it wasn't somebody that broke in and he
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: wouldn't give up the pen number to his checking account
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: or his saving his account.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, did that cause someone to go into.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: A fury, But would they go through the effort of
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: driving up in a boat and decapitating him over a
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: pin number?
• 33:31
  Speaker 7: No, No, absolutely not.
• 33:32
  Speaker 6: This is why I'm saying that this is about something
• 33:35
  Speaker 6: that was going on within the individual that was specifically
• 33:38
  Speaker 6: targeting Russell Dermott or else. None of this other stuff
• 33:41
  Speaker 6: would need to have happened. I mean that these two
• 33:44
  Speaker 6: individuals are killed in very disparate ways, and they're dumped
• 33:47
  Speaker 6: in very disparate ways.
• 33:48
  Speaker 7: But I think it's purposeful. This was planned from the
• 33:51
  Speaker 7: beginning that this was how things were going to play out,
• 33:55
  Speaker 7: and everything is probably geared towards Russell Dermot being sort
• 33:59
  Speaker 7: of the ultimate target of whatever this thing was, given
• 34:02
  Speaker 7: the nature of how his wife was beaten to death
• 34:06
  Speaker 7: and how he necessarily wasn't.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: In the last days a break in the case.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: Listen, the case of the double homicide of a beloved
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: couple in a gated community on Lake of Cony goes
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: cold for nearly ten years until Sheriff Howard Siles announces
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: a break in the case. DNA is recovered from Russell
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: Durmot's shirt and is sent to a private lab for examination.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: The private lab confirms the DNA does not belong to
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: Russell or Shirley Durman. Pubman. County Sheriff Howard Sills says
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: he believes the DNA is from the person who committed
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: the murder, or at least somebody who is a party
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: to the crime.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: Who murdered Shirley and Russell Dermond. The FEDS want to
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: know and they're begging for your help tonight to solve
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: the unsolved murders. Why Shirley and Russell Derman? What did
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: they ever do wrong? Why were they on the wrong
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: end of a murder?
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: Based on the evidence, Russell Derman was murdered elsewhere, but
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: was beheaded in the garage where his body was found.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: The shriff says the injuries Shirley Derman sustained would have
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: left physical evidence that was not found in the Drman's.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Home, nor evidence at the beheading of Russell Dermott occurred
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: there in the home as well.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Where were they killed?
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: What was the purpose of bringing their bodies back to
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: that gated community home right on the waterfront of Lake Oconey.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: We are now hearing about new DNA straight out to
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: the sheriff. Sheriff Howard Sills, Where did you discover Where
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: was the new DNA?
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: We initially took all of our physical evidence out to
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: Atham Authorham did locate and did identified DNA. There were
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: some further word that needed to be done and they
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: have referred me to Sarrenson Labs in out in Utah
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: and they have found DNA that they are still working
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: on trying to isolate that. We at least know both
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: author and Sarnson found DNA that does not belong to
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: Shirley or Russell. Drman and Farnston is still doing whatever
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: they're doing there, trying to narrow that down en up
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: where we can get it into CODIS. So I reached
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: out to them. Initially, the State Lab said there was
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: no DNA. I'm not being critical of them. I don't
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: know the technology at the time, other than the Dermots themselves.
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: But after learning of the good work of Authorm and
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: sarren Son and consulting with the FBI, that's where I
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: decided to take stuff. So we're optimistic that that's going
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: to eventually turn up something here, hopefully pretty soon.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Doctor Christen Millman, joining as Chief Development Officer at ATHRAM,
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: tell me about the discovery of the new well, it's
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: not really new DNA, it's newly discovered DNA.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Where was it and how did you find it?
• 37:16
  Speaker 8: It was on the clothing, and I guess how we
• 37:18
  Speaker 8: found it is the sheriff sent the evidence here to
• 37:22
  Speaker 8: see if there was any unknown contributor profile that could
• 37:27
  Speaker 8: be detected that wasn't previously detected. Once that was detected
• 37:31
  Speaker 8: at our lab, we had to follow the interim policy
• 37:35
  Speaker 8: for this type of technology, and that means that any
• 37:38
  Speaker 8: DNA that is found needs to be uploaded to COTIS
• 37:41
  Speaker 8: first and see if there is a hit and CODIS
• 37:44
  Speaker 8: or a match in CODIS. Once there's not a hitt
• 37:46
  Speaker 8: and CODIS, then we can proceed and build a profile.
• 37:50
  Speaker 8: If there is a hitten CODIS, obviously the case can
• 37:52
  Speaker 8: be solved that way. A lot of the times there isn't.
• 37:55
  Speaker 8: If there isn't, then we can proceed and build a
• 37:58
  Speaker 8: profile that has hundreds and hundreds of thousands of markers
• 38:01
  Speaker 8: rather than twenty, and upload that to genealogical databases consented
• 38:06
  Speaker 8: for law enforcement use, allowing us to infer the identity
• 38:10
  Speaker 8: of the perpetrator. And so Sorensen is a traditional forensic
• 38:14
  Speaker 8: lab that can build these CODIS profiles quickly and get
• 38:18
  Speaker 8: them uploaded. That is what's happening now. And if there
• 38:21
  Speaker 8: is a hit, that case can be solved that way.
• 38:23
  Speaker 8: If there is no hit, then we can take over
• 38:26
  Speaker 8: the DNA sample and build one of these genealogical profiles
• 38:31
  Speaker 8: that will help us infer the identity of the person
• 38:33
  Speaker 8: that left DNA at the crime scene. We can't say
• 38:36
  Speaker 8: it's the perpetrator. But we can say someone that left
• 38:40
  Speaker 8: DNA on their body at the crime scene during that
• 38:44
  Speaker 8: time period, the.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Clothes they were wearing at the time they were murdered. Okay,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: question Dodger Crystal Middleman joining us Dodger Middleman when I say, how.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Do you find the DNA on the clothing?
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Specifically? What do you put it under a microscope? Do
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: you treat it in some way? How do you see
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: what other scientists could not see?
• 39:10
  Speaker 8: Well, DNA techniques should be much the same and standardized,
• 39:13
  Speaker 8: but maybe we took a section of that clothing that
• 39:16
  Speaker 8: was different and sections that had been tested in the past.
• 39:19
  Speaker 8: How forensic testing works is you section different areas of
• 39:24
  Speaker 8: a bedsheet, clothing, anything that might have been found at
• 39:27
  Speaker 8: the crime scene, and then you extract DNA from all
• 39:30
  Speaker 8: of those cuttings. And sometimes you're lucky and you actually
• 39:33
  Speaker 8: find a profile that doesn't belong to either one of
• 39:36
  Speaker 8: the victims. And that is what the sheriff is alluding
• 39:40
  Speaker 8: to in this case.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Doctor Mintlman, it's amazing to me the work that you
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: do at AUTHRAM. You've actually found something that other scientists
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: at the time couldn't see. The way their bodies were treated.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: Missus Drman found at the bottom of a lake, down
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: with cement chunks. Was she alive when she was thrown
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: in the lake? Russell Durman not only murdered but decapitated,
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: his headless body left in the couple's garage, where the
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: car was still neatly parked. Tonight, the Feds begging for
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: your help. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off, good night,
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: Brendan