Latest / Why Does It Feel So Wrong To Be Human At Work? / They Called It a Merger of Equals | Mike Kline
Transcript
- Bree Bartos: and welcome back to Why Does It Feel So Wrong to Be Human at Work, the podcast where we talk about the real, honest, and sometimes messy side of work. I'm your host, Bree Bartos, and I'm joined today by my co-host, Pinaki Kathiari Pinaki Kathiari: Hello everybody! Bree Bartos: And today I'm very excited to introduce a brand new format, Humans That Work, where we invite on Humans That Work to tell the story of a major moment in their career. And we'll discuss their employee experience, if there was any internal communications and what it was like. And we'll see kind of where the conversation takes us. And to kick off the new series, I thought about sharing my experience going through a merger of equals in my first job out of college. But then I thought, what if we actually had my very first boss come on and share his experience going through the merger as a member of leadership? And that is exactly what we're doing today and leads me to introducing today's guest. Not only was he the first person to hire me after college, but he was actually my very first podcast co-host as well. Joining us today is Mike Kline, founder and CEO of ThinkLab. Thank you so much for joining us today, Mike. Mike Kline: Thank you for having me. I am s very excited to be here and relive the chaos of the merger with you. Bree Bartos: It definitely was chaos and it's been a few years now and I'm a completely different person than who I was whenever you hired me straight out of college. So I'm excited to hop into this. Mike Kline: Yeah, absolutely. Glad to be here. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, things evolve like Bree and organizations when they merger and things like that. And it's fascinating to see how that all transpires. truth be told, I have personally never been through a major merger. I've had different things happen. The department I worked in got dissolved and I got moved around and different transitions. But I've never been through a merger. And just like Bree mentioned, in this new series, we're inviting people to come on to tell us a story about major moments in their career. And we just want to dig into that, see what that looked like from their perspective, from the company's perspective, what internal communications or the experience was like and what happened well and what didn't happen well and break it apart like that. So this episode is particularly interesting because not only did might go through the merger, but so did Bree. So I'm very interested. There's also two perspectives here, you know, to hear a little bit of Bree's side. And I'm sure there's going to be a lot that Bree doesn't know from what Mike went through from being part of the leadership team here. Bree Bartos: Yeah, and I'm interested to know what happened after I left. But before we... Pinaki Kathiari: What? Mike Kline: Well, you you left willingly apparently, so yeah. Bree Bartos: I think I could tell you about that. Yes. So before we get into all of that, let's lay a little bit of the groundwork. Mike, when we first met, I was still a college student and you were the director of marketing and technology for a technical nonprofit in the protective coatings and abrasive blasting industry. And. For those who are listening and might not know, much like I did not know at the time when I applied for the job, what does the protective coatings industry even mean and what kind of work were you doing? Mike Kline: So the protective coatings industry primarily well what we did at the organization was called SSPC, the Society for Protective Coatings, and what our job was was writing standards, creating training courses, certifying painters. And we're talking about the people who are painting big structures like ships, storage tanks, bridges. so it's not your run of the mill you know, painting houses. These are these are guys who need to be technically proficient. very safety conscious. And so our job as an association was writing the standards that would dictate how a surface might be prepared with abrasive blasting or the type of paint that would go on it. you know, how to rig one of these structures for safety. So and we also created these certification programs that made people qualify that they met all these special criteria so they could work on these projects. Bree Bartos: these coatings, know, whenever you see a bridge and like if you're in Pittsburgh, for example, and you see all these yellow bridges, that yellow paint is to keep it from rusting and falling down. And that is what we're applying here. And so it's a very important industry, one I knew nothing about, that's Mike Kline: Right. Bree Bartos: for sure. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, that's the fascinating part of being in consulting and where we work with so many different companies. The closest thing we had was work with fire retardant coatings companies. So they would basically coat large parking lots or even hospitals between walls so that if a fire breaks loose, the fire won't move from one room to the other type of thing. Bree Bartos: We had a fireproofing course that I was taking video on. Pinaki Kathiari: There you go. Mike Kline: Yeah, that's right. That's right. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. Speaking of that, Bree, how did you find yourself in such an industry? Was that by chance? Did you say, you know, I'm graduating and I want to go into protective coding? Bree Bartos: I was a little crazy in my senior year of college and started applying for jobs Pinaki Kathiari: huh. Bree Bartos: in January and applied to probably like 400 jobs before I graduated. And it's well, Pinaki Kathiari: That's not that crazy. I don't think that's... Mike Kline: Yeah, great. Bree Bartos: if it wasn't by graduation, it was by March, to be honest, because I got the job at SSPC in March and they actually asked me to come early if I could, but I had to graduate. But yeah, it was just one of the LinkedIn easy applies that I sent in on LinkedIn. Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm. Bree Bartos: Didn't really think too much of it. And I remember I was in my apartment and I got a call asking me, it was the initial interest call before setting up the interview with my then manager. And I remember frantically Googling what protective coatings is as he's asking me why I wanted to work for the association. Pinaki Kathiari: You Bree Bartos: So it just just happened chance happen stands for me. But Mike, you had a better understanding of the coatings industry. Can you tell us a little bit about your background? Mike Kline: Yeah, actually, my first job out of college, back in nineteen ninety two was with a consulting engineering company at Pittsburgh called KTA Tater. And their whole business was built around doing inspection and consulting of these painting projects. and my own father had been in the industry. He w I mean he worked in the steel mills. he worked for a company called Fort Pitt Bridgeworks when I was growing up. And so they cre they made the steel for bridges as So he became somewhat of a codings expert, which is how I got introduced to KTA Tater. So I spent the first seven, eight years of my career working for this consulting company. before I left there to go play in the original dot com boom in the late 90s, early 2000s. And then after that company went bankrupt, I I ended up going. We actually we tried to do a way some friends and I did a startup for a Wi Fi startup. very early on and that didn't work out once nine eleven hit and everybody lost their money and the economy went to crap. So I ended up looking for a job and believe it or not I applied for this job at SSPC. There was an ad in the classified sections of the newspaper is Pinaki Kathiari: Hahaha. Mike Kline: where I found that. So yeah, exactly. Bree Bartos: You're at LinkedIn. Mike Kline: Exactly. So it was I I remember replying to that there or it was a it was a confidential ad and I applied there and Eventually got hired there. So Bree Bartos: How long had you been with, so I would have started in 2018. Do you remember about how long you'd been with the company at that point, SSPC? Mike Kline: I started in yeah, two thousand two was when I started there. Bree Bartos: yeah. Pinaki Kathiari: So for both of you, guess, before this merger was even talked about or even a rumor, what was your day-to-day like? What were both of your jobs? Bree Bartos: I'll go first. was, because Mike Kline: Yeah, good. Bree Bartos: I'll just go real quick, I was a multimedia specialist and I was the photographer, videographer, and social media manager. Not much surprise there. Pinaki Kathiari: Sounds familiar. Bree Bartos: And so I was running our social accounts as well as creating content for print, digital designs, as well as helping to create some of the training courses. Like I helped produce the very first multimedia course that had video and animation in it. And I worked for Mike. And Mike, what did you do? Pinaki Kathiari: You Mike Kline: I was my job was director of marketing and technology. So I had the marketing group reporting to me, I had the events group which managed our net our annual trade show and then the technology group. So three teams. And I kind of you know, my my pr it's it's kind of an odd mix, but in the non profit world it's not that unusual to see odd mixes. And Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: but there was a lot of overlap between what you know the the creative marketers did and what the event people were doing and frankly what the technology people were doing. So, you know, my j my goal at that time was to bring in people who had skills that could kind of work in each area. Pinaki Kathiari: Sounds very, very familiar. Small company, same type of philosophies. And also, not only by necessity of small organization, but I also think it's really interesting to of cross-train and cross-discipline folks and not necessarily have them all siloed in kind of one way. think that's... So you kind of work with what you have, but you know what? I think that also helps out kind of create more... what do we call them, unicorns, Local Wisdom a multidisciplinary folks who could just then kind of grow and move into different directions, which is one of the main reasons why like Bree is here even in our interview process. So now there's something good over there. Thank you. Mike Kline: Well, that's good to hear. I look it to me I I my brain is scattered at times and my interests are pretty widely varied. So I've Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm. Mike Kline: always been a a tech nerd at heart, but marketer by training, and but it to me it's more interesting to be able to have these cross functional capabilities because of those there's a lot of dots that connect, right? So like you said, putting Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: people in silos is kinda dumb because if you have somebody on your team who has a great skill set like with Bree in her photography and videography and the animation, I mean, why would we bury that just because it doesn't align with some specific role? And what I want people Pinaki Kathiari: Absolutely. Mike Kline: to do if they have an interest is let's pursue that interest because if you end up hating what you're doing, even though that's your job, but you're a super talented person, maybe we can give you another opportunity over here. so it's, you know, I I was try I try to be intentional about bringing on people who are multicapable. Bree Bartos: Yeah, Mike was definitely my, I guess, first instance of job crafting. I know we talk about job Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. Bree Bartos: crafting a lot here on the podcast because I was hired to do photography and videography and not social media. And I saw that no one was posting after six months at the job. I was like, hey, can I do that? Pinaki Kathiari: Exactly. Bree Bartos: And Mike was like, yeah, let's do it. So, yeah, it's interesting for me to be here now and to see where I started and see where I am. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, it's fun for me to see the lineage and I agree. think, you know, like too many times organizations try to put people into boxes and, you we're humans. We don't know we'll fit nice and neatly into boxes. And if we do, maybe we don't want to stay there forever either. So I think that's a really good thing and a good philosophy. yeah, kindred spirits all around here and all over the place. You're Mike Kline: Awesome. Pinaki Kathiari: in the right or the wrong room for that right now because we're all over the place here as well. So yeah, so let's get back into the merger. you know, like, what did you feel like? I guess, you know what, before we get into the merger, just to talk a little bit about what both of your jobs were, or specifically for you, Mike, like, what did you really enjoy about the job before it started getting complicated or before the talk of merger came up? So we'll go pre-merger and then we'll get into. Mike Kline: Honestly, so the the details of of my day to day aren't that interesting. but what I appreciated the most about about that specific job was having a seat at the table where I could and this is this is this is very much pre merger, but where I could sit in a room with leadership, sit in a room with staff, sit in a room with my own team, sit in a room with vendors, and be able to influence what was going on. Because I was I was very much a sort of a a connect the dots person. and so what I guess what I enjoyed about the job the most was the variety where I could see what we're doing over in tech and how that could impact what we're doing in marketing, or how we could come up with a solution for the events team by bringing the other stuff to bear. So it was just Again, it was that seat at the table, it was connecting the dots, it was being able to interact with all these different people. and f frankly my favorite thing was putting together the team and just assembling Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm. Mike Kline: a group of really smart and talented people. Bree Bartos: We had a good team. Mike Kline: We did. Pinaki Kathiari: That is awesome. That is awesome. Because yeah, because it makes sense, especially what you're saying about being multidisciplinary, multi-talented in that way, because you get to have a seat at the table and then you get to build a team. And by being multidisciplinary, multi-talented, you get to have empathy for the work that's actually getting done at the different levels from creative to technology, and then being able to bring that empathy back up to the table to then make really good decision. So, well, I feel like you and I could talk for a really long time about these things. Bree Bartos: I have had this planned to introduce Pinaki Kathiari: She had. Bree Bartos: you two at some point for a while. Mike, when I saw you start Pinaki Kathiari: Yes. Bree Bartos: dabbling in AI, I started telling Pinaki, I was like, yeah, my old boss, he's dabbling in AI and he's in Pittsburgh. So I knew you two would get along very, very well. Plus I enjoyed working for Mike so much and I can't say that about everyone I've ever worked for. Pinaki Kathiari: You know, Mike Kline: I appreciate that. Pinaki Kathiari: that's a mark of something special right here, right? Like, you know, here you are like, I think it's really special because you guys are forced to be together when you're working together. It's a whole different thing when you're not together, right? Or not working together to get like invited together, to be invited out or to meet up even after we're not working. So that's something special. So kudos to both Mike Kline: Yeah. Pinaki Kathiari: of you. Mike Kline: Well thanks. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. Bree Bartos: I'm glad we could do this. But I wanted to go back to the merger. I feel as though when I my memory is not great. I think I disassociated Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. Bree Bartos: most of my time after in my early 20s anyways, but I think my first time hearing the merger was in a more official capacity, like in an all staff meeting, like it wasn't really rumors. It was like, these are the talks that are happening. Just, and I remember it very much at the start, what we were told, you know, it all being about talks. But do you remember when you first heard about a potential, like even just the whisperings of merger and our competitor? Pinaki Kathiari: Well, actually Mike, before you answer that, just to clarify, you said that the first time you heard about it was in an all staff meeting. There Bree Bartos: I think so. Pinaki Kathiari: was no kind of rumblings before that meeting in your mind? In the early 20s mind of Bree. Right Bree Bartos: there could have been that i don't remember. my mental health was bad. Pinaki Kathiari: on. Sorry for that. I just wanted to check in. Yeah, back to you, Bree Bartos: Yeah, no problem. Pinaki Kathiari: Mike, with that question. What was your first hearing about this? Because I'm sure you're at the table. Mike Kline: Yeah, no, I I I had known about it for a while. Actually a lot of history. so the organization we ended up merging with, they're they had tried to merge back in like in nineteen ninety nine. and it really wasn't gonna be a merger. It was gonna be the big organization taking over us. and our board decided in ninety nine, and this was before I was there, they decided, no, we're not gonna do that. We like our organization. At that point I was like fifty some years old, so they're like, you know, we're gonna continue this. And over the next twenty years, SSPC, even for a nonprofit, became very profitable. so much so that we had built up this huge war chest or nest egg of of millions of dollars. and our competitor meantime, they were still growing as well, but they didn't have the the bank account we had. they took a lot of the money they earned and they invested it in growth, where we took a lot of a lot of the money we earned and invested it in investments. and so we still ran as a Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm. Mike Kline: very lean organization. So probably around twenty eighteen, not long after you were hired, Bree. Yeah, we we Bree Bartos: I was going to say? Mike Kline: started we there was I think it was the there was a September board meeting and the board mentioned to us Yeah, you Bree Bartos: I took photos. Mike Kline: you did. I and I I believe it was the board told us then or or our boss told us, and the executive director said that. There have been these preliminary discussions between our board and the NACE board about merging. and so that was when I first heard about it. And then we had all these super clandestine meetings in Pittsburgh. I can't remember if we went to Houston or whatever, but there was like meetings between the leadership and you know, efforts to hammer out a deal. but yeah, so it was it was likely well before you heard about it that I was aware. Bree Bartos: Do remember what you felt whenever you first heard about it? Mike Kline: Yeah, I felt, this sucks. and and the reason was that I mean, I this is this was the f the only merger I've ever been through, but in knowing the history of mergers, it always doesn't work out well for some people. it particularly doesn't usually work out well for the smaller organization. and and you know, we were very much in that position. So but it was yeah, I was I was not a a big fan, but oddly enough it landed on my desk to be the person to try to sell it to our membership. And Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm. Mike Kline: so while being not necessarily for the for the merger, I had to be the one to sell it to the membership 'cause it was a marketing job. Pinaki Kathiari: How did you handle that, like, inner conflict yourself? Mike Kline: I did my job. I mean it was, you know, was the here's here's with the goal and what we were trying to do is move people to the the memberships specifically to the point of they had to have a vote for or against the merger. And so we just did this huge Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm. Mike Kline: communication campaign talking about the opportunities and laying out a vision and eventually moving everybody to to where we wanted them to go. It was great social engineering. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, yeah, there's the politics in action in that way. And this is a vote for members, not employees or anything like that. So yeah, Mike Kline: Yeah, no, we didn't get a vote. We were we were along for the ride. Pinaki Kathiari: and so I'm assuming the vote for the members happened after that all hands meeting that like Bree was talking about. The announcement was made internally first. Okay, cool. Bree Bartos: Yeah, yeah, because we were, I was helping, you know, create some of the content that the members were receiving about the communications and navigating it on social and all the people complaining in the comments because no one wanted it on our end. Mike Kline: Nobody w Pinaki Kathiari: how interesting. Mike Kline: At least in social on social they didn't want it, so Bree Bartos: Yes, yeah. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, change is rough. so like, yeah, what was your first take, Bree, when you heard, I guess, from the All Hands meeting? Bree Bartos: like uncertainty and I don't like change. I Pinaki Kathiari: Mmm. Bree Bartos: and I am someone with an anxiety and panic disorder. So I am internally just like, uh-oh. And I start worrying about the fact that we don't need two social media managers. But thankfully, I actually Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm. Bree Bartos: I was like, hey, Mike, do they have a videographer? And they didn't. So I was like, OK, well, at least I know they Pinaki Kathiari: No. Bree Bartos: don't have anyone with a camera. But I was worried because, like I said, they only need one staff at the end of it. And there was a ton of overlap, especially in the marketing department. We were a very, very small team. their marketing department, I think, was a lot bigger than ours. Mike Kline: Yeah, very much so. Bree Bartos: Yeah, and I didn't even get put into marketing after I got put into pubs. Mike Kline: And I and frankly I didn't either. I ended up in customer experience, as opposed to marketing. Bree Bartos: Yes, there was a lot of shuffling that took place because of having a lot of, know, there's two managers for training. What are we going to do? We need to only have one manager for training. And so there was a lot of shuffling around and I was actually going to ask you what that was like on your part, Mike, and if you were happy where you ended up. Mike Kline: I I I hated it. you know, I Fran well, I mean maybe that's a little bit strong. I got to learn a lot. Bree Bartos: Yeah. Mike Kline: one of the things that I I pride myself on is being able to dive in, get my hands dirty and learn stuff. and so I did that with customer experience. and so I did learn a lot there, but I didn't feel like that was gonna be the most effective place for me. and that was kind of the first red flag whenever they would take people from our team who had great experience and just scatter them throughout their own internal organization. And you know, they they called it a merger on its face, but the reality was, you know, they took people, our people who had certain skill sets, and I felt like in a lot of cases set them up to fail. Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: and so despite the fact that we went in and I feel like we did a bang up job, and and I had I I brought receipts, okay. I had numbers to back up how good of a job I did. and i eventually it wasn't good enough anyway. So it was it seemed Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm. Mike Kline: like the fix was in to me. I would have rather been involved in events, would have rather been in stayed involved in marketing, you know, technology especially, which was really where my heart lied. But yeah, that wasn't I got some made up role that It was sink or swim. Pinaki Kathiari: So you were kind of thinking through this timeline right now. Mike, you found out through... Bree Bartos: I did jump forward a little bit. Pinaki Kathiari: All good, all good. We'll piece it together. So yeah, you found out leadership, then you guys are talking to work on a deal as the deal is getting created or close or actually agreed upon probably. An announcement was made internally. all hands meeting, that's when her Bree found out, then there is this voting process member Bree Bartos: member campaign. Pinaki Kathiari: campaign that happened. And I'm assuming that had to have gone pro merger because it happened. then the merger actually started happening. I guess I'm wondering where the plans were made and the communication was. Was that through like your organization or was that through the other organization, the bigger organization that was coming in? Like who led the planning and the communication for the merger? Mike Kline: Are you talking about in terms of like external or internal? Internal. Bree Bartos: internal. Pinaki Kathiari: Internally, internally, yeah. Mike Kline: That was really we actually We spent a lot of twenty nineteen figuring out how to do that. Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm. Mike Kline: and so it was my gr my specifically me, I guess, working with Was it Rebecca? I think so. It was me Bree Bartos: Yeah. Mike Kline: me working with the woman on their team who was in charge of their marketing group. and Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. Mike Kline: we we planned a lot of that. And I also worked, I mean, 'cause we kinda also doubled as PR. I I worked with Alyssa, who was their PR person. So we we worked together a lot on the communication to staff plans and the messaging that the CEO and the executive director would share and the the things that the board would say to try to get the staff just aware of what was going on and how the how the timeline would work out for the overall merger, who would go where and who would be doing what. so it was a lot of, you know, there were a lot of moving parts at that point. And frankly that wasn't it Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. Mike Kline: that because it was a membership organization, two membership organizations, we had to do related communications, especially to we had standards Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: committees and technical committees that did a lot of overlapping work on both sides. So we had to figure out how to combine all of those. so it was it was Pinaki Kathiari: So yeah. Mike Kline: really a joint effort between both teams. Bree Bartos: And we had Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. Bree Bartos: an agency that also helped, right? Mike Kline: Yeah, I'm n I'm drawing a blank on the name right now, but they were Bree Bartos: Start with an Mackenzie? Something like that? I don't know. Mike Kline: It might have been something like that. We'll just call them So the agency, right? The agency. Yeah. Bree Bartos: the agency. So it was nice to have a third party as well that kind of led Pinaki Kathiari: mmm agent II so right on yeah Bree Bartos: it. From my perspective, like, I know that you worked really hard on the internal side of things. And like, there was kind of a committee that they formed of both sides, I believe, to kind of make sure like they, they really marketed it as a merger of equals to the employees from my end. Mike Kline: Right. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm. Yeah, actually, I just felt like it wasn't that. But one thing that's really interesting too, because I hear this a lot as well, is some internal communications falls on the marketing side and the CMOs or the chief marketing side, which is also very interesting. And kind of because this is some a merger of like the size and stuff like that. There's kind of like HR, there's management, there's legal, there's technology. Yeah, we've seen it from a consulting side, like kind of how do you kind of bring together two organizations? We've also seen it the other way around where we've like consulted on divestitures and how do we like separate instances and things like that. So that's very interesting. So now as you're kind of like... Looking back at it and stuff like that, would any, what I guess would you, if you could consult with your like that group as that agency, like what would you say or do differently? you make sure something happened or make sure something didn't happen or push for an idea or a recommendation versus another? Any afterthoughts on that? Mike Kline: I felt like the the agency actually did a pretty good job. they had done mergers before, it's specifically mergers of trade associations. So it wasn't they weren't, you know, covering new ground here. the I think what what really bogged us down speaking as the the merged organization was failure to listen. Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm. Mike Kline: you know, failure to really take into account what the agency was saying and yeah i they I mean we we did to a certain extent, right? I mean it it it it Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: pulled off successfully we managed to you know combine the things that needed to be combined and and set up you know all the fun KPIs for measuring success and all that stuff but there was Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm. Mike Kline: a lot of a lot of drama a lot of politics a lot Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm. Mike Kline: of personal feelings that people had about their organization and and this was from the member side as well. I mean you had people who were 40, 50, maybe even 60 year members of the organizations who were just very vested in that. So each side was playing politics a lot. And I if I had a chance to consult, I I think the first thing I would do is go in and say, look, You guys are very attached. Your members are 'cause this was very me much a member led effort. I mean we w we were there as Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: staff to help, but it was the boards who were pushing it and the board members were all members of the organizations. and I would I would try to be very firm about, you know, there's a lot of passion on both sides. There's a lot of personal attachment to your specific organization and you have to work as hard as you can to put that aside and see the big picture and look at what's best for the overall organization. That to me was the biggest I don't wanna call it a failure 'cause obviously the ma the the merger happened and it worked, but that was the that was the toughest thing I think that the that we had to get over. The biggest friction point, right. Pinaki Kathiari: Friction point maybe. Yeah. Mike Kline: so I would go in with that first, I think. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, and it makes sense because you have a merger coming up, scenarios like, especially in the nonprofit world, I always found like the nonprofit world has almost more passion into it because we're all working towards a cause and the cause of safety, et cetera. So to kind of introduce a change like that kind of has to create some kind of anxiety or some kind of Definitely a loss, because even a merger is like, losing what I currently had. I'm gaining something else. I just don't know what that is. And Bree mentioned the uncertainty, so it feels like a loss in that standpoint. Mike Kline: frankly there was a big lack of trust on both sides as well. Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm. Mike Kline: 'cause it really was a competitive environment. We didn't care Pinaki Kathiari: Yep. Mike Kline: for their business practices and they didn't care for our feistiness. so yeah, so there Pinaki Kathiari: Haha got it Bree Bartos: He Mike Kline: was there was a we were it was just two different cultures. Bree Bartos: Yeah, and these were in some additional context, like these were rival organizations. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. Bree Bartos: Like it was very much a competition between the two. these are also like it was an older industry where our big Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Bree Bartos: issue was a lot of the people in it were retiring out. So this is like workers with decades of passion behind them. And Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Bree Bartos: so, you know, there was a lot of tension and then also between a lot of the staff too because you know that rivalry again was a public Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Bree Bartos: rivalry and some of the staff would get into it. And so I was wondering Mike if you know because of that once the merge happened did you feel like we were one team? Mike Kline: I felt like my team was one team. I was I was Bree Bartos: That's fair. Mike Kline: I was very sad, frankly, that I lost you and I lost, you know, Rob and Bernie and or Bernie might have left before that. But there were, you know, the Morgan and and and Gwen and the team we had, you know, Nicole, you know, just we had such a good team and we were such a a strong team at SSPC. And then we all got scattered in the merger. and so, you know, from a leadership position I had to be you know, when I when I got put over it was customer experience, so I had customer service and membership of my group and I worked very hard to create them into a team or us into a team, I should say. and it took a little bit of time, but but I th I felt like we got there. I earned their trust, they earned my trust. but overall the organization there was still a lot of second guessing going on. Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm. Mike Kline: and there wasn't a lot of trust department to department. Bree Bartos: Mm-hmm. Pinaki Kathiari: Very interesting. I'm assuming it's like a cross-company. it's kind of like, so when you say, when you say kind of like merger, it almost feels like what we're in theory doing is taking like the best of both sides and kind of like merging and kind of creating the best of both sides. Did this feel less like a merger after the fact, more like an acquisition where we're just acquiring this bank and then like of letting go or pushing out like the incumbent company, quote unquote incumbent company, I guess. Mike Kline: Yeah, pretty quickly. I don't know about Pinaki Kathiari: Pretty quickly, right? Mike Kline: I don't know what you think, Bree, but I mean to me it felt like that pretty quickly. Bree Bartos: I was the only one from our organization in my new department. like everyone else in my department was already an established department that had been used to working together for years and I was also the only one in Pittsburgh. Granted they were largely remote, but what you said earlier about setting us up for failure, agree with that. I was still responsible for all the video and photography for the company. I wasn't responsible for the company's social media anymore, but I was responsible for three publications' social media accounts, which was about, I think, 10 or 11 social profiles in total, as well as all of the videos that the magazine needed for each issue. And then like also all of the sponsored videos that they sold for each issue. And it just kept adding and adding and adding. My money didn't go up though. I eventually, I was at a conference and I found out that like my, like the other people on the team were making at least 40,000 more than me, like all of them. And so I went to my, and I was so burnt out at this point. And I like every morning I sat at my desk and I cried. was so overwhelmed and so overworked and I went to my manager in tears in my like one-on-one and I was like, I'm so overwhelmed. I'm so overworked. I can't do all of this. Like more and more keeps adding and like this entire time my compensation hasn't changed. And she told me that if I'm unable to do everything in my job description, then she'd have to take me to HR. Pinaki Kathiari: Wow. Yeah. Bree Bartos: So I found a new job. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, that sounds like it. You know, I've been kind of like having conversations. It's funny in the last few weeks about these kind of unofficial, but official, politicking strategies for employees, right? Like, you know, I was having a conversation with an executive from a major financial institution. who's approaching retirement in like just a few years, know, 30 years in the organization. And we're just having conversation like, is that like? And there was this kind of like, I guess, unwritten somewhere or understood notion that, all right, we're going to try to make it a little uncomfortable to try to push you out before you get like the package and things like that to like save money. There's ranking performance reviews and things like that. Yeah, so Bree Bartos: God, our performance reviews were awful. Pinaki Kathiari: there's a whole bunch of things like that that are kind of set up in ways to push people out without just almost being perhaps honest with it. If you're saying, hey, this is what's happening and this is how it's going to affect you and it's unfortunate, but here's what we're going to do to help you. I know there's... more feelings and intricacies around that. you know, like right now, you know, the trusting can never be built if you can't be honest about what's going to happen. Right. So the same cycle will kind of like continue as this like organization of unless the organization does something to build that trust. Right. Sorry, I got into a little bit like rambling and stuff like that there, but it's Mike Kline: No, no, I Pinaki Kathiari: it's it's this kind of concept of like just one like building trust through honesty and you really can't do it without being like truly honest about it, you Mike Kline: There's a Boy Bree, you're right. I think philosophically, Pinaki, you and I could have a long conversation about Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: this stuff. The you know, kind of back to Bree's point, I I will say this going in, you know, we had there was a huge, massive pay discrepancy between what their staff got paid and what our staff got paid. and similarly when I was offered this supposed promotion, you know, as as non profits, everyone has to file this Form nine ninety, which makes Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: all of their finances public and especially when you can look at their the all the highest paid staff members stuff was public. So I went on their nine ninety and I looked at they what they were proposing to pay me was similarly about forty grand less than than what these other people who were gonna be my peers were making. And so I pushed back on that you know, before I accepted the job and and But they were they were not happy about that. And I I think, you know, when you talk about creating unwinnable situations or difficult scenarios, you know, Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, there you go. Mike Kline: you're saying, okay, you're gonna come in and you're gonna do these same jobs as other people, but we're gonna pay you massively less and eventually you're gonna find out about it and be upset and they're they're gonna do what they did to you, Bree, or they're gonna ultimately do what they did to me, where they go, Okay, well, you know, you're just not a fit for us, goodbye. And so it's it's no matter how many good job reviews you get, Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: or what kind of bonuses you get because you're meeting your goals and you're doing your job, ultimately they find a way to get rid of you. and I feel like that that kind of transparency and honesty is missing. It was missing from our merger. And I think it's probably missing in general in corporate Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: America, because you're is you know, let's face it, I'm a I'm a fifty-seven year old guy. And I face ageism all the time. In Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: especially I work in the tech world now and trying to get Pinaki Kathiari: yeah. Mike Kline: my foot in the door with a tech company, they look at me and I'm not some young whiz kid, I'm I'm an old whiz kid, but still, Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: you know, it's you get that look. So I think that's very much endemic in the corporate world, whether it's mergers or whether it's hiring Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. Mike Kline: or whatever it is. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, it just feels like you're being set up basically. Mike Kline: Yeah, right. And I don't mean to complain. I have a great life, right? I mean I really love what I do now, but it's that was the the whole merger thing for me was so distasteful, that it it was just, Bree Bartos: yeah. Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: you know, there are still scars four years later. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. And, you know, we understand, right, that just things have to happen, right? Like we're merging two organizations and like there's going to be people that has to be let go. There might be redundancy or whatnot. Even from a pay discrepancy standpoint, even from what you said earlier, I'm just making this up, hypothesizing, but it sounds like your, your nonprofit smaller kind of spent less on growth and more on investment to kind of grow that, that bank. The other kind of spent more on growth, which I'd assume means like spending more also on its people and things like that. So it might be like a difference in culture, which in theory could have been like, hey, you know, this is the reason why there's this discrepancy right now. Give us some time to like make it equal. That'd have been a different type of conversation, right? You know, more an honest conversation. Bree Bartos: They knew there was a pay discrepancy and they did give Pinaki Kathiari: Nah, it's public. Bree Bartos: our side of the company pay boosts when we became official Pinaki Kathiari: okay, there you go. Bree Bartos: merge. It was probably, I think it was like a 10K pay Pinaki Kathiari: Hmm? Bree Bartos: boost for me, I mean, if my employees, my coworkers at the time were making 50K more than me, I didn't really. Mike Kline: Right, that ten that ten K isn't anything, right? Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, Bree Bartos: Yeah, yeah, it was more of a let Pinaki Kathiari: exactly. So it's even to be. Bree Bartos: me just give you this. It's why I feel a less guilty Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, yeah, exactly. This is what it feels like, right? And I'm sure like the other side is. Bree Bartos: as like a 24 year old 10k, heck yeah, added to my salary, Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. Bree Bartos: i was ecstatic. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, exactly. But yeah, it's kind of like, you know, how like, like organizations like prep for things like this and how they handle the communication. It's a incredibly tricky scenario and it's like, hard to like win. But I guess my kind of like goal at KPI was just like, yeah, for folks who are like leaving and like whatnot, what kind of a reputation are we leaving behind? Right? You know, cause you know, here, there is a marketer, PR, et cetera, right? Reputation from like your membership is one thing. There's reputation from employees. This is another thing because all reputation kind of adds up to your ultimate reputation here, right? And I, go ahead after you, go ahead after you, it. Bree Bartos: And you, you, oops, sorry. No, I was just going to add, you don't know which of your employees are going to have a microphone in front of them on a podcast in four years. So you want to treat them well while you got them. Pinaki Kathiari: You know, you don't know who's recording that, like that layoff conversation that you're having right now, you know, like those types of things. This is a now a whole new world here, right? But I think that's where it goes. Like, I think like some of those, you know, things that's, that's one of the things that I always kind of like, try to get out there earlier about like, just like the, as soon as you talk about a merger, or as soon as you talk about any kind of job change or reorg or whatnot. first people thinking about is my job, right? And no matter what, cause you know, Maslow's, you know, laws, my safety is probably gonna be the first thing that I'm gonna like think about and be concerned about. And that's where I always say for like organizations going through change, let's just acknowledge that first, like whatever it is, like earlier on and be honest about it as much as you can. And if you can't be honest about it, it was like, we will be honest about it and we'll tell you on like this date or by this time exactly what's going to happen. But it's kind of like, to not say it and then have these kind of like, you know, side backend conversations to kind of have people leave the organization through different ways by just making it difficult or not, you know, creating an equal space, a thing like that. That's just as I don't think is going to just like cut it more and more, you know, in the future. Right. It's not a You have to kind of deal with these things before and not like a post merger cleanup, like in sort of scenario. Bree Bartos: Yeah, treat your people well from the start and talk to them, Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. And I think... Bree Bartos: communicate, be honest. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, Mike Kline: Yeah. Pinaki Kathiari: and I think the transparency of how we're going to make the leadership selection or the job selection process, I think is a super important one. How are people being judged? How are people being vetted to understand how it's going to work out? I think that's also an important part. think even in research shows that people will always have less anxiety throughout that process and start being able to do things like even look for For example, don't promise me I have a job and then like kind of force me out. Like, you know, let's say that, your job is potentially in question. We're going to work with you and help you maybe find the next thing. And we're going to also help you work with you to find you something in this organization as well. Try to like think about the individual or the person as opposed to just the organization for a little while. Mike Kline: Yeah, I you know, there there was a a fair amount of that missing during this merger. it was it was just in a lot of ways, you know, the things could have Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. Mike Kline: definitely be been done better. But I I will say this. I I made a lot of friends over there, you know, with with staff from the organization and we were together for two years. I still keep in touch with some of them. and there were some of them who were not as h who were not happy with how things turned out either. I mean there's you know, they they the Eventually, you know, the way it worked out with the leadership thing was their CEO got hired to be the CEO of the merged organization and they created a twelve person leadership team, which I got to be a part of, and one other person from our organization got to be a part of that. So it was we were outvoted ten to two, Pinaki Kathiari: Shit. Mike Kline: pretty much on everything. And yes, and not you know, not not Bree Bartos: Merger of equal. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. Yeah. Mike Kline: that we not that there was any partisan votes going on or anything like that, but you know, it was it was it was upheaval for everyone, I guess is my point. Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: And some of my colleagues and former colleagues there who are no longer with the organization either, they kinda got the crap into the stick as well. Like it it just it I I felt like it could have worked out overall better for everyone. And actually a year after I left, They brought on a new CEO who ended up firing most of the leadership team and bringing in his own people. So Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: it was again, I and I know that's not surprising when you have leadership changes like that. but it was it was interesting to see that happen because a lot of the problems that they had were plain to see, like we could diagnose them, and in fact we did diagnose them and it fell on deaf ears. So Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: you know, it's one of those things that happens. Bree Bartos: Yeah, I do want to say, felt like throughout all of the merger, like you said, you were one of the 12 leadership board and there was only two from our organization. I felt like you always did your best in everything you could to be a voice for our staff and our team. Like you said, we were a very small company and I feel like you really... stood up for us and I know that wasn't easy and I know it took its toll on you. Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Bree Bartos: But was there ever? I'm sure there was. But did you consider just leaving? Just walking away? Just saying screw it, I don't need this? Mike Kline: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I there were actually there were time and honestly what happened was you know we had active discussions in those meetings, the leadership meetings about the need for a reduction of headcount. because we had to. And it it goes back to what you said earlier. I mean, you there's you when you have duplicates of of job positions, you don't need all of them. Bree Bartos: Yeah. Mike Kline: and the fact of the matter was that in combining training programs and standards programs and membership programs, there were there was a certain amount of overlap. So that meant revenue was going to go down by a certain amount, right? and they recognized that they had really been overpaying their people by a lot. you know, so Pinaki Kathiari: You Mike Kline: so we knew that there had to be this this reckoning, I guess you could call it. Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: and they talked about offering early retirement to people who had certain tenure. of which, you know, I would have qualified for to that point, 'cause that at that point I was there with the combined organization for about twenty years. and so it occurred to me that if they were gonna offer a nice package, I might take that package and go. but yeah, it was, you know, it it was it got to Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: be frustrating enough that I felt Bree Bartos: Yeah. Mike Kline: like I wasn't having the impact. You know, going back to what I said earlier, I liked having a seat at the Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: table. I liked being able to have a voice of reason that would be heard and I didn't feel like I had that impact there. So it wasn't as enjoyable for me because I couldn't have that impact. Pinaki Kathiari: just being in the opposite camp with very different views is very difficult and very stressful. So I could imagine how that must have felt because it didn't feel like, well, I'll say it. they said merger, but it doesn't feel like a merger. It feels more like an acquisition. And we talked about trust from the beginning. trust comes from just kind of more or less calling it what it is, right, in that way. So maybe even from the beginning, we could have like, potentially positioned it in a way that might have helped keep the trust and kind of earn respect throughout the process and hopefully like alleviate some of like the tension and stress and anxiety throughout it all. Because you know what, I try to kind of, I try to keep like competition low, you know, at my organization, this kind of mantra of we win together and we lose together, but we're not competing against each other because once people get in like highly competitive, then like other funny things start to happen. But if you go into this situation, it's like, hey, we're going to walk into this together and build it together. Then these people are learning to work together one way or another. Mike Kline: Right. we talked about the culture mismatch a little bit earlier and and one of the things Bree Bartos: Mm. Mike Kline: you s said made me think about it, you know, we we came of from a very blunt and direct culture. where, you know, you would go on you would say the thing just because it was easier and quicker to get it out that way. and and they were not that way. Pinaki Kathiari: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: I think I think our our approach might have caught them off guard, in some ways and you know, that probably didn't help us much. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, those are wild things that need to be or should be, I think, acknowledged upfront too. And like people don't think about it, especially when you're at like leadership conversations, because they're not in the day-to-day all the time. And Mike Kline: Right. Pinaki Kathiari: we have a client who also went through a massive merger of two very different cultures. And what was interesting when we spoke about that, the philosophy that they ended up taking on was not to smash everybody together and create one culture and things like that. They were respecting both cultures, having both cultures coexist with the idea of potentially slowly finding ways to merge them in the ways that they can and keep them separated where they need to because both cultures were successful in their own place and in their own way. So I thought that was just a beautiful example of sometimes going against that common gut instinct that we must be one culture, we must be, you know, one cohesive Borg unit, you know? So, Mike Kline: Yes, right. Pinaki Kathiari: right, instead, like, let's kind of enjoy the diversity and enjoy what that brings, enjoy the different perspectives and what that does to the different members or audiences or customers that you have, because you'd also don't want customers to feel the effects of that mistrust throughout that. quote unquote merger as well. Mike Kline: Right. Yeah. Bree Bartos: All right. Pinaki Kathiari: on. Fascinating conversation. I could kind of keep talking about this forever. Bree Bartos: I know. Mike Kline: No. Pinaki Kathiari: Because mergers and acquisitions will continue to happen. We're just trying to make them a Bree Bartos: I know this has been great. Yeah. Mike Kline: Yeah, yeah, and and and Pinaki Kathiari: little better. Mike Kline: and pe and people will continue to happen, right? I mean that's you Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. Mike Kline: know, we everyone needs to be to figure out their place in it. That's not gonna change. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. And a lot of times like Bree Bartos: Yeah, exactly. Pinaki Kathiari: this type of stuff happens and it's happening on top of our day jobs, right? Even throughout like leadership or anything like that, when you're kind of, and the amount of paperwork and the amount of legalities that go throughout a merger or acquisition is amazing. And so like, you know, just to put it out there from the other side, like looking at it from like a leadership. standpoint or a board standpoint, like the number of decisions, the number of little things to like think about throughout all this is quite high, astronomical. And it gets difficult to kind of think through all the like smaller minutiaes of the individual stuff. But that's where I think bringing in the right people, bringing in more people and making it more of a two-way conversation helps, right? So even if you have to slow down the merger to do it right, I would kind of... be a proponent of that as well. Bree Bartos: Yeah, because it shows you care. Mike Kline: Makes a lot of sense. Bree Bartos: And if you are going to slow it down, do it with thoughtfulness. Like your people are going to buy into it more because they're going to see that you care. Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, because change is hard for everybody, right? Bree Bartos: Bam. But Mike, I know that this was a lot to dig up and talk about, but I appreciate you so much for coming on and sharing your story with us. Before we go though, of course, we've been connected on LinkedIn the last few years, and I've been watching you be very busy learning and building with AI. And I'd love to hear a little bit more of what you've been up to with ThinkLab. Mike Kline: Yeah, so I, you know, when I actually when I left the merged organization, I started a marketing consulting company 'cause that was my wheelhouse. and then in twelve I don't know, when ChatGPT first became popular a few years ago, I dove into that and I thought, man, this is so cool. And so I just kept getting more and more immersed in the in the AI area to the point where last summer, July of last year, I changed my marketing consulting company into an AI company. so I could really lean in lean into my tech passion. So what I what I do at Think Lab is I'm actually building software now. yeah, so I use I'm using AI platforms like Claude, lovable, there's a another platform, Chip AI, to help me build by prompting. and so it's everything from you know software as a service systems like I'm building a CRM for a client. I'm working with another client. We're taking one of his vibe-coded builds from Lovable and turning it into native iOS and Android apps. and so it's it's really what I'm trying to do is make it I'm trying to help other people learn about AI is my thing. I want to be able to t take people from I know what Chat GPT is to I can automate large portion, large annoying portions of my job using AI Bree Bartos: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: to really help me focus on. you know, what my expertise is. Think Lab's mission is to teach people how to build, teach people how to use AI, and also build for them when they feel like paying me to do it. Bree Bartos: I love that, especially because that local wisdom, our whole thing is we love sharing our wisdom. So I Mike Kline: Yeah. Bree Bartos: really love that. Pinaki Kathiari: Absolutely. Yeah. And definitely would like kind of dig into that because as we're also getting into where we want to take AI and how we want to work and play with it. So yeah, it's something else that we might schedule some time together to just chat about. Mike and I just get some yappy hour time at some point. Mike Kline: Yeah, hit me up. I That's right, I always should. I I always you know, it's funny, I this this workshop I'm scheduled to do next next month, it's there really is, you know, I I feel like I'm s I'm so far like like I I feel like everybody knows more about AI than I do. And then I look and it's like some people are just like, I don't know if I should talk to AI. And and I'm trying to get them to be like, It's okay, you know, it's okay. You don't have to like have AI take over your life, but maybe just have AI help you sort through your inbox. Or maybe have AI read that angry email you tapped out and soften it. you know, it's so it's not this wholesale changeover, but I like seeing the light go on. I found that I really like teaching. so Bree Bartos: Mm-hmm. Mike Kline: it's, you know, one of those things that I'm just trying to to dive into. Bree Bartos: I love that. Pinaki Kathiari: Fantastic. Bree Bartos: I love that you found a love of teaching because teaching is just very special. But thank you again so much for joining us today. That is it for today's episode of Why Does It Feel So Wrong to Be Human at Work, the podcast where we discuss the real, honest, and sometimes messy side of work. If you haven't already, be sure to follow or subscribe wherever you're listening. And please rate this episode. Interacting with the content that you're enjoying lets us know what series to keep making. So we really appreciate you taking the time to like or rate the episodes as we try out some new series and formats. Pinaki Kathiari: Absolutely. Thank you everybody for joining in. Would love to hear your thoughts about like mergers and acquisitions if you've been through it. How was that experience? What would you have told the leadership or the team what they could do different for next time? Bree Bartos: if you wanna share Pinaki Kathiari: you Bree Bartos: a story, need advice, or have a question, you can actually submit it to our subreddit, r slash human at work. Let us know if you have a situation you need opinions on, or if you have a story you want me to read to Pinaki and get his reactions on. You can submit Pinaki Kathiari: You Bree Bartos: it there. Pinaki Kathiari: Right. Thank you so much, Mike, for joining us. This was an absolute pleasure to hear your thoughts, your philosophies on this and interested to hear more and see what's next, see where AI has taken us and we'll get some time together for that. Mike Kline: Yeah, sounds great. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. Pinaki Kathiari: And of course, thank you, Bree, for getting us together and putting together this episode. Appreciate you. Bree Bartos: Of course, my pleasure. All right, we'll see you all next week. Pinaki Kathiari: All right, everybody. Bye bye. Be well.