Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Live from CrimeCon: Little Abby & Libby's families beg for your help after girls' murders at Delphi Bridge

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Live from CrimeCon: Little Abby & Libby's families beg for your help after girls' murders at Delphi Bridge · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: Get started Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on sirius x
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  Speaker 1: M Triumph Channel one thirty two. Hello everybody, we are
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: live here at Crime con in Nashville, Tennessee, where we
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: are all assembled three thousands strong in our pursuit to
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  Speaker 1: stop crime. Right now, we go to Delphi, Delphi now
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: known because of the deaths of two little girls, a
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: tiny town and know more than three thousand people still
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: in shock after Liberty and Abigail are found dead. It's
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: been well over a year and still even though the
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: little girl's killer is caught on camera when the girls
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: snapped his picture on that trestle bridge, we have his voice,
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  Speaker 1: we possibly have his DNA, but still no arrest. Why
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  Speaker 1: struggling to understand, struggling to make sense of it all
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  Speaker 1: Our Liberty and Abby's families who are with us now
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  Speaker 1: here at Crime con answering your questions and listening to
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: your tips, clues and interpretation of the facts. This is
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I want
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: to go straight to our guests with me, our Liberty's grandparents,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Mike and Becky Patty, and Abby's mother, Anna Williams. Anna,
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  Speaker 1: So did she go? Did you take her to the
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: park to meet up? Yeah? I picked limb up and
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: we'd taken it. What time of the day was it
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: the day before? Oh? It was. It was kind of
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: like the weather out here. It was not the nicest day.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: It was kind of wendy and overcast. It was probably
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: about one thirty or two o'closs, still daylight. Then what happened? Um? So,
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: I we'd gone to the house and gathered up her
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: things and I dropped them off um, and she spent
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: the night and Um, I worked two japs at that time.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: So I was finishing up my shift at the some
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: home and she had texts me and said, is it
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: okay if I stay for dinner? And this is like
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: at twelve thirty, and I said, let's was at your house?
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: She was at their house and I said, well that's fine,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: but I have to be at my other job at four.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: So if you can't stay until eight and somebody can't,
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: you know, it's gonna be one of those deals. Either
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: you stay until I can get off of work, or
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: if you know, Kelsey's come back to town or they're
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: you know, want to get rid of you, they'll have
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: to drop you off of the house because I can't
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: get you. And she said it's fine. So I said, okay,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: I will see you after. Oh I know that when
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: the parent can't come and go, oh, I'll take I'll
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: trap a mom. I'm happy to okay, I'll take a phone. So,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: so you're at work. Did you go pick him up? No? Okay,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: they were, she was still at the house. I was.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: I was at my uh bart stop. So now I've
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: got them at your place, right, Okay, we're both of
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: you there, guys, I'm now speaking. That was Abby's mom
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: and and now I'm speaking to Matt, Mike and Becky.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: What happened? Tell me that day from the time they
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: got there for dinner. Oll, they went upstairs. Of course,
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Abbey come bringing in a big old tote of paint. Paint. Yeah,
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: they were gonna paint. Ah. Of course, the Libby's room
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  Speaker 1: when nearly as organized as Abbey's her stuffs there everywhere
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  Speaker 1: still is. Um he walked through and you find some
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: paint here, and you find some paint there, and all
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: of our other stuff. But uh, so they went upstairs
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: and they've of course, you know how kids do, they
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: take lots of selfies and videos, and so we know
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  Speaker 1: what they were doing that night because Libby did some
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: videos and of Abbey there painting, and and we there
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  Speaker 1: is there is a canvas there of where they started
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: a new painting, said chocolate. Imagine that I was right.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: I can't remember. There was something wrong with one of
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: the letters that was. So they you, um, they were
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: up in the room doing their their thing, and they
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: of course they're up half the night girls stuff, girls
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: talking and whatever, and um, they slept and they and
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: then the next morning was Monday, and we had a
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: snow makeup day where the weather was so good that okay,
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: I see that means something to me, that a snow
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: makeup day. So okay, what was there? What did they do?
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: The next morning? They slept in, They slept in and
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: they got up, but I don't know its ten o'clock
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: and uh, they have pancakes for breakfast brunch and uh.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: And they came out and said, we want something to do. Well,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: my my office is at home. And I said, dreaded words,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: what can we do? And that was Libby all time.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: If she if she had to set still for five minutes,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: it's we're gonna do something this weekend? Are we gonna?
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  Speaker 1: You know what we're doing? What's plans? So we were
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: quite busy with her. Um, and I said, you know what,
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: I got files that need to be filed. You want
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: to make some money? Bet they were. They were out
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: there working away, and especially if he said, I'll take
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: your shop, and you know you do this for me,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: I'll take your shopping. So they were out there and um,
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: they and Kelsey, Libby's sister, come out and said, hey,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop by a friend's house for a little
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: bit and then I have to be at work for Libby.
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  Speaker 1: That's all it took. She jumped up and said, hey,
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  Speaker 1: because it was a beautiful day, it was action drop
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  Speaker 1: us off. Hey we she and I said, well, what
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  Speaker 1: about this filing. We'll do it later. I promise we'll
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: do it later. And uh so, I said, well that's fine.
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  Speaker 1: You um she said, can Kelsey drop us off with
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  Speaker 1: the trails? And I said, well, okay, but I'm busy.
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  Speaker 1: You're gonna have to get a ride home. No, what
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  Speaker 1: are the trails we have around our town. We have
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  Speaker 1: a trail. It's a it's a community trail system that
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  Speaker 1: there's what eight or nine miles worth of trails that
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  Speaker 1: just goes clear around our town, all the way around.
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  Speaker 1: And they had just opened up this section of the
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  Speaker 1: trails not too long a couple of years because they
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  Speaker 1: put a new road in and they put a historic bridge.
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  Speaker 1: Had no reason to think, oh, there were there was
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  Speaker 1: people out there that morning and that day like jogging
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: and all that. There's there's some that jog, but there
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  Speaker 1: was a lot of kids out. That's the trails is
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  Speaker 1: what our kids do. There's not a lot to do
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  Speaker 1: in Delphi. So you know, you go walk and bike
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  Speaker 1: the trails and and out there that bridge. What people
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  Speaker 1: don't realize, so many families have had their pictures taken
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: out there. You know, it looks like a place you
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: could see, uh, like a wedding photo done on the bridge,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: you know how you do those scenic photos. It's not
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: just in the church anymore. And it's very pritty, and
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: it looks out over a river. It's a creek. But so, um,
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  Speaker 1: my son was out running some errands and so she
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  Speaker 1: Livy's dad and she called him and said, hey, if
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  Speaker 1: Kelsey takes us to the trails, will you pick us up.
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  Speaker 1: He says, well, I'll be another hour, so I'll pick
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  Speaker 1: you up on my way back through. So so one hour.
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  Speaker 1: So it was it wasn't gonna be that long. We
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  Speaker 1: knew it wasn't gonna be that long. And it was nice.
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  Speaker 1: It was nice and right, they're going to be well,
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  Speaker 1: not for sure, he said, about an hour or so.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I'm not so Kelsey took them and dropped
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  Speaker 1: them off, just getting me so upset because um and
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: I've even done it. Okay, okay, they'll be okay for
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: thirty minutes. It's just thirty minutes. I'll run to Kroeber
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  Speaker 1: and I'll come back thirty minutes and then I'm not
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  Speaker 1: up the whole time. So an hour and a half
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  Speaker 1: that was it. So they go, we dropped. It's your
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: last memory of her? She was standing at the door
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: of the office with this smile that she has, and
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: I said, it could be a little chilly out there.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: You get a jacket. She sitting grandma. I said, I
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: told you, get a jacket. She just looked at me
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  Speaker 1: and smiled and said, I'll be okay. It's okay, granmall
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  Speaker 1: and she turned and walked out. My last memories of
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: her standing at my office door telling me it's okay.
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  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna get a gold. So that's that's my
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  Speaker 1: last memory. What is your last memory? Dropping her off
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  Speaker 1: at their house with her with their paints. And it
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: wasn't until later on when we when we got to
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  Speaker 1: the Sheriff's department and actually, um, I saw the snapchat picture.
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  Speaker 1: But that's the last picture I have. That is the
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  Speaker 1: last visual I have with my little girl. It's on
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  Speaker 1: that bridge, you know. I think about that so often.
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  Speaker 1: I think about Abby and Liberty when I dropped the
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: children at school, and I watched him walk in. Because
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: of Karen Horman, a little boy in the Pacific Northwest,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: this step mother dropped him off. I'll watch him walk
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  Speaker 1: in almost to the door, and I remember, think about
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: it every morning. And you know, Renee Rockwell, defense lawyer,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: You've told me a hundred times about the last time.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Remember you saw your ex and he had put the
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: laundry in and it all turned pink? Remember, and he
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: do you remember that? Yes? I still have the pink towels.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: And so when people are confused about the last time
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: they see someone or the last thing, that I know
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: right then, because I remember the last time I saw
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: my fiancee. He come to Macon. He was living in Athens, Georgia,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: and spent the weekend with me and my family. And
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: we got like five o'clock that morning and he left
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: to get to work, and he drove off in a
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: white Lamons and he to the horn and held his
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: hand up and I watched him go out of sight.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: And that's the last time I ever saw him. And
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: I have thought about it and dreamed about it so
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: many times. When was the next time, What was the
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: next thing you hurt. Tell me from your point of view, Well, um, again,
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: these times are going to be close because we've been
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: we've been scrutinized on many times. I mean, it's all approximations.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Again that they were probably dropped off around one thirty
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: time frame. Derek called him about a quarter after three
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: that Derek is the dad who's going to pick him up.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: So about a quarter after three he calls him no
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: answer to tell him, Hey, I'm I'm just about there.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: Come pick me up, you know, or come to the car,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: and continues to call actually he's there. He gets, yeah, yes,
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: pulling up. But this is what we call trailhead, you know,
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: a little little area to part um. So he said
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: he got out and was walking, you know, trying to
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: text him. In about three thirty or so, like called
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: Becky and said, hey, I can't get ahold of Libal
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: should not answer and give her a call, and so
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: she tried calling, and then the our our daughter Tara
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: tried calling. So everybody's texting and calling and she's not
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: returning and that's way out of character. I mean, you know,
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: kids have their phone and that is there. That's it.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: And uh so Becky called me probably about a quarter
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  Speaker 1: till four. So I wasn't at working off yet and said, hey,
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Libby's not answering something wrong. We're heading out there. It's
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: just not doesn't seem right. I said, okay, said I'll
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: head that way, just thinking, okay, where the you know,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: first thing goes. They hooked up with some boys. They're
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: out doing they they're not answering their phone because I
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: don't want to get caught. And then so by four
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: o'clock most of the family is there. We're trying to
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: I've been trying to get ahold of her. She's at work.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: I show up there probably about four thirty. Time I
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: get out of work. The trail had the trail head,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: and of course I jump out and I'm starting to look.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: She leaves at that time to go find Anna. I'm like, hey,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: we need you know everybody. Let me ask you all
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: a question. How many times have you been looking at
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: a store or you're somewhere and you try you don't
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: see your child? Happened me once and I'll never forget it,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: And it was you've heard me tell the stories that
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: the baby's or us and some mother had guilted me
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: out because she made her own organic sunscreen. I'm like, okay,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: So I'm there trying to find organic sunscreen because I
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: was visualizing like a witch over apop me trying to
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: cook some up. And uh so I bent down and
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: they had the like it lows or something. They have
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: the shelves all the way up. So I'm down on
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: the floor looking at the bottom trying to find organic sunscreen.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: And I stand up and they're only renee what were
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: they like three? And they were wearing those little crops
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: which are silent. And I turned around. There's Lucy and
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: no John David and I had practiced all kind of
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: emergency procedures. I grabbed Lucy like a football and started screaming,
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: screaming lot the doors and this that moment you turn
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: around and they're not there. I'm getting chills. They're remembering it.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: When did it hit you? Something is wrong? I think
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: we all realized once you wouldn't answer her phone after
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: the third or fourth call from everybody in the text.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: When I got there at again after four, UM like, okay,
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: maybe they've dropped their phone, you know what I mean?
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: Because there's water, they're a creek, and um, did they
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: both have a phone no, Aby did not. Abby did
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: not have mine don't have a phone yet either, So
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Liberty had the phone. And you see, that's what people do,
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: That's what I do. I think of every possible thing
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: that could happen. Maybe they dropped it in the water. Okay,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: all right, so we fig're okay, they're that or they're lost,
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean. They just wandered off the
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: trail system. Cell phone service is not great out through there,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: I mean patchy at best. You get certain marryas and
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: all that. And if they were wandered around off the trail,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: so you're all three there at this point, I did
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: not know I actually met them. They She finally got
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: ahold of me. We missed each other's phone call, isn't
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: it because I didn't even have her that name in
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: this new phone that I had. And I was like, finally,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you know what's up? She said, we're headed
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: the Sheriff's apartment. The girls want to walk this and
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: I was like, all right, all right, let me when
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: we close out a couple of things, I'll be there
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: just a few minutes, and hollered one of the girls
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: in the back that time. Did you really think anything
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: was wrong. No, because unfortunately they those girls had had
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: been in the school pool watching Kelsey practice and they
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: didn't have cell phone service, and it was I'm gonna
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: stay with Liberty until the game, and then she was
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: supposed to meet me for some Abby was supposed to
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: meet me for some money, and she hadn't And um,
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, so it happened before that you couldn't reach well,
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: not so much, they were right there at the school,
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: they just didn't have service. But I mean I thought, okay,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: plans of change. And then I'd gotten a message from
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Liberally saying Dabby is with me, and I was like,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: this is probably another one of those things. Yes, it's
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: been a few hours, but I'm sure there's a say.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: I'm just the exact opposite thirty minutes, smilies, I'm calling
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: nine one one because until they were thirteen and four exactly.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Mine is still just ten. So they haven't they don't
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: know what all they can get away with yet. When
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: did you realize something was not right at all? Well,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: our whole family was out there looking. We all left Tara,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: my daughter went straight over there. Derek was there. Um,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: my son come pulling in from my other son, come
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: pulling in as I was leaving, and he said, what
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: are you doing. I said, We're gonna go look for
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: the girls. So he jumped in the car with me.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: We drove if if they would have decided to walk home,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: we drove both directions that they would have gone both routes.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: We got there. We had six cars there. We were
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: taking over everything. Um. We we split up. We walked
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: all the trails. Um. Cody and Kelsey went across the bridge.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: They went. They went across and and up to the
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: road and up to the houses up there were the
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: sheriffs there yet not yet by this time it was
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: a little after five. Was it getting dark? Not yet?
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: It wasn't, but I knew it was going And I
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: was on the phone most of the time with a
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: T and T trying to get them to ping her phone.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: And they won't, they won't do it. I was just
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: gonna ask, will they do that, Vincent. I don't think
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: they'll just do it when you ask. No. Not right
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: off of that, No, I was arguing. I kept telling
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: that she's lost her and I know, well we can't.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Well they said, well you can get this one app great, Well,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: well paying your phone, Well, you gotta put it on
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: her phone. I don't have her phone, So you know,
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: it was and that funny with the things that stick
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: in your mind about what was happening at that time.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: So you're there, you think at this point everything is
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: probably just confusion. You guys are there trying to on foot,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: trying to find them. When did you calling the cops?
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: It was about it. It was about twenty after five.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: He come walking up on the trails and I said,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: I'm not getting anywhere here. It's gonna get dark. It's
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: gonna get dark here pretty about my six or so.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I said, we've got to call the police. We've got
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: to get them looking for them before dark. We did, well,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: you know, Vincent, at that point, what should police do first? Well, Nancy,
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: they probably should have come out with an amber alert
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: at that point. I mean, it had been several hours.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Don't you have to have a car tag to do
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: an amber alert? Yeah you do, But there's that's really
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: helping me. But are you in a perfect world for
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: several hours right by this point? They really I mean
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: they called again a quarter after three is when we
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: were going to pick them up. And at five twenty
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: I made the call the police. It wasn't several hours.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: It was a couple of hours. The police immediately came
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: out there and dispatched, and we're on the scene, you know,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: we're on the in the area walking. I guess the
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: only thing they could have done was bring dogs at
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: that time, because they didn't have a car to do
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: an amber alert in most places don't have like a
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: missing kittler. I don't think in the problem with the
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: dogs at that point, did they really have a missing
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: person When police first show up, they don't consider that
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: a missing person without the investigation first, you know, And
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: I get it. I am part of the justice system,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: but I have a problem with that when time is critical.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: So let me ask you this. Y'all stay out there
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: to what time that trying to find him? Oh? It was.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: It was really a very hectic night. Obviously after calling
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: the police, then we rallied back at the police at
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: at the county police station. Oh man, how bad did
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: you hate to leave that part? Oh? I was there
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: several times throughout the night back and we were running
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: around town, driving around the town. Um, you know that
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: the police were trying to you know, look at they
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: were trying to paining her phone, and I think they
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: did end up getting some pain. I really saidn't know that. Yeah, yeah,
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: I don't know how accurate it was. It was earlier
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: during the day, like Anna said, we have some sketchy
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: phone service. You know, you can drive a half a
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: mile in from another tower and then if the falls off.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: But no, we we spent There was a coordinated search
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: that started. I mean people started coming out and grows.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: It was like volunteers all over the town. It was.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: It was crazy that the our local fire department, they
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: were coordinating things, putting search parties together. People were you
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: could drive. We were driving everywhere. I'm checking every place
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: you think, okay, any of the parks that are there,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: you know, up at the school, driving back out there
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: to that area. Uh, yelling, hollering you drive through town.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Later started getting dark, of course, and flashlights, so is
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: the light is a dark start of setting in? What
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: went through your mind? If anything, it's late and it's cold.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: I mean you even maybe not so much here, but
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: in Indiana it'll go from an eighty degree day down
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: to thirty five degrees at night. And only one of
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: the girls and a sweatshirt on. I don't know why
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Abby put one on as opposed to living there was
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: she listened to you, which you said, y'all need a jacket.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: That was the whole thing is they're not wearing clothes.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: If if they're outside, its hypothermia serious issue. Not yet
• 20:46
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• 20:55
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• 20:58
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• 22:15
  Speaker 1: When did they call you? And what? You know? How
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: did you find out that they had found the girls?
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: You were out searching. They had put they had gritted
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: out a lot of the areas that that night. No,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: it was the next day. It was the next day. Um,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: the police called off the search about midnight. You had
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: well that yeah, like she said that, the police, uh,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: just for safety, said, I mean, we were searching all
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: over the whole area, literally probably hundreds of people at
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: this time, we're out searching. I went back to, of
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: course we've been out searching. We all were. And I
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: went back to the fire station with with the volunteers
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: that were there, and uh, it was probably around at
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: eleven o'clock, twelve o'clock, and they kind of called off
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: the fresh one. I don't know exactly what times, so
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: don't hold me to that, but they called off the
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: officials search and let let's resume in the morning. But
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: the volunteers said, no, and and and and they all
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: rally and said, all right, let's go back out there.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: We're gonna light up these creek banks. We're gonna walk
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: this creek. And I mean, but was there enough water
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: for them to have drowned in it? There's spots and
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: deer creek. I mean, it's not a real Dame Creek.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: I used to fish it when I was a kid.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: But um, so you guys were still out there through
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: the night. When did they tell you they had found
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: the girls? Well, that wasn't until the next day. So
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: I'm just want people realized there was people searching all
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: night long. I don't think I went home until three
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: or four o'clock in the morning. But there's people said, Mike,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: we're gonna stay out here all night. We'll see you
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: in the morning. But for a validation point. One of
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: the reasons why they said, as we are bringing in
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: dogs for Kentucky. So the fewer people that we have
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: out on that specific area. So the next day there
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: was a restricted to the last path. Because of that.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: We had been both sent to our homes to get
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: clothes at the girls had warned the biggest thing was,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: let's not confuse these animals anymore by all of these
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: people criss crossing. It's just the thing. So there was
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: some reasoning that was good for the fact that the
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: dogs were coming in and the and that is a protocol.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: So what time did they let you know the next
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: day they had found the girls? I think we we
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: were where we all were at various points. I had
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: actually gotten in a canoe and floated down the creek
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: for probably half a mile. I'd just gotten out gotten
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: back to the fire station, um Becky was. They were
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: doing a very coordinated search, and that's how they worked
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: at the starting the next morning where hundreds and hundreds
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: of people were showing up, and they would send out
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: groups with some sort of lawfish or whether it was
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: you know, somebody from the fire station, because you're you
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: can't dis trespass on people's property, you know, if you
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: do it a it correct. Yeah, I remember that there
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: was a search. Weren't executed on the person's home and
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: property right now or where the girls were found. Everybody
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: immediately thought, wow, that must be the person of the purp,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: but not necessarily that's just where where were you when
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: you learned that I was searching? They? We were all indifferent.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: We were all split up because all he was in
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: a canoe, I was I was in a group. I
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: was in a group that wasn't even close at the time.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: But a friend of ours was with one of the
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: groups that found them, and he and his wife was
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: with us, and he called her. Um, they told me
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: that they found him, but that's all they would tell
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: me at that time. Did you ask any questions? Did
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: you think I jumped in a car? And did you
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: think they were alive? They wouldn't. Did you ask them?
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: I I I went tell him. I just told asked
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: them take me to him. I said, they found him.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't even ask him if they were how they
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: found him. I just said, let me, let me needs me.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: You need to take me to her. Now. UM. The
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: thing of it is, we had found out before. Some
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: of the officials that were at the trailhead. They kept saying, no,
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: they had no they had nice. Yeah, they found him,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: they found him. So UM. They didn't officially call us
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: in until later, but we knew. We knew before. UM
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: we were officially told. You knew what that they had
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: been killed, we had friends, and that we're in the
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: search party that found them. So they called you and
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: said we found him. The wife called you and said
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: she didn't call me, she called somebody. The husband was
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: with one of the groups. The wife was in my group,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: and he called her. But they wouldn't tell me any
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: All they would tell me was they found her. They
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: found him. So you race, you all converge and what happens.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: I was actually already at the fire department. I had
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: my dad was coming back from Michigan. I don't I
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: don't know why I waited. I don't know that I
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: waited so long ato call. But much like the day
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: that I had to call him to tell him I
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: was expecting Abby and I was not married. I'm sitting
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: there and my best friend she's like, you really need
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: to call your dad and let him know he's no
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: more and gotten home from this weekend with Abby. He's
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: back in Michigan. It is four in the morning, he's
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: getting up for work. She's like, just just call him,
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: and he and I remember the first that Yeah, the
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: first thing he said was why didn't you call me
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: sooner said, because I thought we'd find him or later.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: So I'm waiting at the fire department for him to
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: get there and he had gotten there just an hour prior,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: so he's asking questions. He's telling him where they stayed
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: for the weekend, who they talked to, all those things.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: And I was on the phone with somebody from uh
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: from out of town that I lived there, and he
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: knew that are He said, how, hi's the water right now?
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: And I was like, well, not that bad. And I
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: turned around and there was a quad that had pulled
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: up and I was like, hey, how has the water
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: and the scale screamed at and she's like, not right now.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, all right, okay, never mind. And all
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, the pastor comes walking towards me and
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: he starts talking. I'm like, hey, hey, I gotta go,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: and he said okay, and I hung up the phone
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: and he said, does anybody talked to you in the
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: last few minutes and or come up to you? And
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: I said no. He says, we need to go upstairs. Okay.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: I didn't heft to have to hear anything past that.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: I knew if there was something good, I wouldn't have
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: heard it quite that way. We know. At that juncture,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: a photo emerged of a white male walking across the
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: bridge at Delphi and I remember thanking, where did this
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: photo come from? How do we have the photo? There's
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: no security surveillance video of photos on the bridge, and
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: I thought, is this from the girls bound? The girls
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: were found, they'd be killed not far from the bridge,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: just what a thousand feet down like you would go
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: over the bridge and then you're on land and then
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: go down to where the water was. And that it
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: was amazing to me that they were not found sooner,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Not that it would have made difference, but there may
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: have been more for insic clues if they had been
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: found sooner. I don't know for sure that that's true,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: but that is where they were found. And then a
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: search of the girl of the one phone revealed that
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: she had the wherewithal she got this guy's voice telling
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: them to go down essentially, and I keep wondering what
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: did he have that made the girls obey him? Did
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: he have a gun? Did he have a knife? Uh?
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Why didn't they run? Maybe their conditioned, like my children,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: to do what adult to tell them to do. I
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: don't know why they went down there, but that is
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: where they were fine found and that is where the
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: investigation begins. And this is the stuffer they've got the
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: guy's photo, they've got his voice, they can time exactly
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: when this happened, but still no perpetrator. Let me just
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: ask generally, is there any of the perpetrators d NA
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: at all? In any way? We've never been officially told
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: er until much like Jerry Holman said yesterday, they have
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: never specified one way or the other. They came uh
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: to our homes, took all of our DNA, as they
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: should so, because they said, we need to know who
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: belongs in the house. Foods got it? Who has stuff
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: on them that belongs there? You wash your clothes in
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: the same washroom dryer, you sit on the same couches,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: you have people come over. They I mean, they didn't
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: ask first there any unknown male DNA the one way,
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: or the scant cells, be it saliva, be its sperm,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: be it anything. Do you know if there's any male
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: DNA there? I think that's something that's the investigators know,
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean, that's that's information that's pertinent
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: into the case. And I hate to use this term,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: but but to protect the integrity of the investigation, that
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: doesn't need to get out. And the reason that's asking
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: is because of Golden State Killer, which was a major advancement.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: And I've been wondering about that in the past. But
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: you all know the Golden State Killer, who we know
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: murdered at least twelve, raped many more, one home burglaries,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: at least fifty rape victims at least DNA was found
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: and finally they thought ding ding, and they plugged it
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: into for instance, ancestry dot com and it got familial
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: DNA matches to another male relative. They go to him,
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: they rule him out. Then they figure out as St.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Angelo and they get the Golden State Killer. It's him. Okay,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: he's matched up to DNA. So that's when I'm wondering
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: and hoping, and I'm also hoping Joseph's got more than
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: you're the forensics expert, that they will also be using
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: the that in other words, the most modern DNA technology
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: where there's touch DNA that you leave behind actual skin cells.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: Believe it or not, touch DNA can now beat Okay,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: so jose got what what? Now We've got his picture,
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: we've got his voice, we've got the time he was there.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: I would think if it was a local inhabitant, a resident,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: somebody would have ideed him by now he's not a
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: disguise cho. He has some facial hair and a hat.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: But we can figure out how tall he is, how
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: much he weighs. Remember in mid Lothian, you can, for instance,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Alan standing there. If I'm the FBI, I'm a cot,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: I can measure to the top of that cross in
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: the door and I can say that's how tall Alan
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: Duki is. I can look look at him photographically and
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: determine how much he weighs based on that, So we
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: know how tall he is. We know he's a white male,
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: his hair color, how much he weighs, what his voice is,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: where he was, but we don't have him, Joe Scott.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: The most important thing that we want to consider here,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: and I think that it always goes back to this,
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: is the idea of timeline. The timeline is very very
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: critical in this case. You know when UH, when I
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: first came in contact with this case, I think that
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: I was on the air within two days, and when
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I heard about the nature of it, I was shocked.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: I was absolutely shocked because I knew that as a
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: result of this UH of what they were saying, I
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: was like, this is gonna be a home run. They're
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: gonna catch this guy immediately because it's contained. You guys
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: had this grid search that was going on. A lot
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: of this information was coming out in regards to this,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: and so as time went by, when things didn't gel
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: like I thought that they would at that moment time,
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: I was kind of surprised because the bodies were contained
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: in this specific area that were found immediately adjacent to
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: the bridge. It's a small community, it's a rural community.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: I think that now moving forward, um, the police and
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: police are give me I'm gonna be blunt at the
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: police have used the words heinous a couple of times,
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: and that tells me that there is contact going on,
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: and I think that that goes without saying I think
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: to what point there is contact, physical contact, and what
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: the nature of injuries are. One of the things I
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: would very be very curious about is this was the
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: corner present at the scene. I'm not talking about autopsies.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: I want to know was the corner present at the scene,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: what type of examination was done at the scene, because
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: for me, one of the things I want to know
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: is I want to understand what's called post mortem interval.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: How long had these two girls been deceased, and that
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: had to be at that moment in time. I spent
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: the reason I'm kind of having attachment to this, I
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: spent several years in Indiana training corners. I taught at
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: their State Corners Academy, and I know that these people
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: are trained very well, considering the limitations they have in
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: rural areas. I would want to know what kind of
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: attention was paid at the scene to some of the
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: steps that we take in the examination of remains at
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: the scene, How was it documented, how were they able
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: to process this? I'm not talking about the cops. And
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: then I know that the girls remains were taken to
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Terror Hope, which is what it's almost what an hour
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: and forty five minutes from y'all's location, where the further
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: examination was conducted at that point in time. I want
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: to know what how much attention to detail did they
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: pay at that at that moment in time. Uh and
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: the measurements, particularly things like and again forgive me, but
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: things like body temperature. We have the picture of the
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: perpetrator and by now nobody in the area can identify
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: this person. Do you believe and I wanted to ask
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: this question, do you believe that anyone is covering up
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: for someone in Locally, it would be assumed that somebody
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: knows who this is and for whatever reason, they haven't
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: come forward yet. A mother, a sister, a family member.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: Maybe they haven't though maybe they really just don't know.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: But you get that feeling that somebody you don't have
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: reason to think someone's covering up for the part, but
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: that they really don't know. And I'm asking you ideal
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: with faction data. That's kind of guy. I'm an engineer,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: and I mean, could he be? Yeah, we can talk
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: theories and any people in Delhi three thousand, Okay, so
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: is he there? Could be? I don't see how I
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: really did not find it in a town of three
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: thousand that nobody knows this man. Well, that's just it.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: We aren't a big I mean there's probably ten thousand
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: people in our whole county maybe town. In no way.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is very accurate in detail. I know
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: I had to jump in. So one of the other
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: things to keep in mind, or what amazing girls you raised.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: One of them took the picture as that that person
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: walking and Nancy. The point I would make with that
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: is trust your gut. I have no doubt she never
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: would have taken a picture of him approaching if they
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: knew him, Why would they take a picture of a clandestine,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: you know, person walking towards them. So I, in my mind,
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: this is someone they did not know from the community.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Is brilliant, you know what. It leads me to think
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: that he had done something other than I passed all
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: of you guys in the hall. I didn't say, oh,
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: take a picture. They he had to do something agree
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: to make them go, oh, we're gonna take his pictures.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Let's see who has an idea that can help us. Yes,
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: they breathe put it in a nutshell. Hi, thank you.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: I'd like to know if they've given you any profile
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: of this killer, and if they have, what would be
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: the profile. I haven't received a profile other than like
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: the estimated weight, height, size, um. As far as an
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: actual person itself. Uh no, I think there's what the
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: investigators leading on the fact that we do have some
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: good heart evidence. We like you said, we got a picture,
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: we got a sketch, you know, we got a voice.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: I still say, somebody out there knows, and that person
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: may not know about this case. I mean they know
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: the guy. This guy lives beside somebody, somebody's friends, somebody's coworker.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: We just need to reach that person and through you know,
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: through something like this, people helped spread it out. Eventually
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: we'll get to that right person who has the wherewithal
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: to make that call. I have the police looked at
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: their internet, their iPads, their cell phones, everything. One of
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: the first things they did was gather all of our stuff,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: our phones, the tablets, the passwords. We actually had to
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: go and file for estates on the girls to get
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Apple and Google to release those things. That was one
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: of the first things they saw in including with the
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: snapchat photo that Libby took a b abbey. There is
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: no evidence whatsoever that they were intending on meeting anybody
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: that day that as far as we know, they have
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: not found anything. And that's so they said, we weren't.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: They weren't planning on many anybody. They didn't even really
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: tell anybody they were going. So this wasn't a I
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: know the girls are gonna be out there and we're
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: coming out to investigate, and it would be one of
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: the first avenues. John David asked all the time, can
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: he have like group chats? I'm like, unless it's somebody
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: at school that you know no, because you're probably talking
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: to some sixty five year old guy in New Jersey
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: and his underwear and you don't want that, and he's
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: pretending he's eight, okay, and he's playing Minecraft or whatever
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: with you. Everybody, we are here at crime con and
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: we have with us the family of Liberty and Abby
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: who lost their lives at the bridge in Delphi. We
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: have a live studio audience and we are looking for
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: clues if there is DNA, for example, if there was
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: some kind of encounter. If there's DNA under the fingernails,
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: it tells me that maybe this might be a person
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: that's never been in trouble. I find that very hard
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: to believe with his age. I don't just jump up
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: at age forty something and kill two little girls. But
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: Nancy with no d N A, I mean it has
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: I guess you on the DNA because I don't know
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: that there's DNA and they don't know because nobody's saying
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: so I can't follow that it's natural route. But so
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: I'm backing up. Remember when we tried cases without d NA, Think, think, think,
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: and this is how we did it. So do you
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: guys know if they have gone to a drifter didn't
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: just walk there from forty five miles away. Other places
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: have surveillance video, not that bridge. But do we know
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: if that has been gathered from as she said, gas station's,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: truck stops, restaurants. Yes, it has been. It has been.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: But it's a great idea, you're right. I mean that's
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: what we're here for. You know, if there's something that
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: we haven't done, we definitely want to know about it.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: And Nancy, can I just say think about this. It
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean that he hasn't done something in the past.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: He has. Likely he's a predator. What it means is
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: he's never been caught. So people need to look at
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: is this somebody, Oh we have a relative, they'd never
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: do that. Every criminal out there. I think he's thinking
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: they did it. I'm telling you right, he has something
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: he hasn't arrest somewhere. Yeah. One of the things I
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: was warning, do they have any evidence of primitive camping
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: around there at all? I mean, do people commonly primitive camp?
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: There is there evidence in there that you know, you've
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: got you've got people that primitive camp in that particular area,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: and they would go unnoticed. Uh, you know, so is
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: there evidence of any campground at all, primitive camping where
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: there's just random fires that have been set and that
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: sort of thing. Um, not that I came across. I
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: actually did a grid search out there shortly after this
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: all happened. I couldn't just sit idle Um cleared up
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: with the FBI and the police and said, hey, I
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: got some buddies and got about a dozen of us
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: and kind of gritted the whole area out and did
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: a search looking for stuff because you know what, I'm thinking,
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: he's eating things like beanie wheenies or whatever it is
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: that he's eating. May be a tarp maybe. Uh. You
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: know how when you can drive by the bridge and
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: you see blankets, it may be something that rudimentary. Um,
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: I'm just wondering if another search of the area for
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: that very thing, because it took a while to find them,
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: How do I know that there's not something out there
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: like a tarp, like a sleeping bag, like a blanket,
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: like anything. Uh, A can that might have a fingerprint
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: on it. Where he was? Do you look at his clothes?
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: Did he just show up that day or had he
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: been there? He's got on several layers, right, yeah, absolutely,
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: that's what hides a lot of his features as well.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: But you know, did you did you arrive on a
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: motorcycle uncannily warm, overly dressed? In my opinion, these are
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: questions that we have that we don't have as the motorcycle.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: Is there an area like a surveillance area, like a
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: truck stop or something like that that we can look for, Oh,
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: we don't have. We're not big enough our truck stop.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: We have what we call gas station. You know. I'm
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: also wondering about his clothing, like, for instance, specifically that
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: hat in the jacket, what kind it is, where it
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: could be purchased. I mean, you can identify a trash
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: bag from the lot, the manufacturer, the store, where where
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: it was purchased. What about that? That's gonna meet some
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: serious FBI work on that. Absolutely. And that's that's the
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: the picture that was taken from the video off of
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Libby's phone. It's we tried to clear it up, and
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: I've been told that they've sent it to several different places,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: you know, NASA, Disney, all kinds of places, But it
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: comes down to pixelation, and there's only you know, you
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: can only polish it so much. Now you don't want
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: to change or altar that because that begins to mess
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: with the integrity again the information for the investigation. You
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: can't go in there and change it around saying Okay,
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: I bet he noses this big, I bet his lips
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: are that big. Well, then you're making it look like
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: somebody defense attorney's gonna come in and that of the
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: clothing and go take it to a location. And if
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: he is on a motorcycle or has a car, for instance,
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: that makes him more substantial. That means he's got an
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: apartment or a home as a whole different line of investigation,
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: as opposed to a drifter that might have been eating
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: out of a canatuna pop talk somewhere in those woods,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: which is a whole another line of investigation. To research
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: the area, I mean, I don't mean research look it
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: up the line, I mean walk it. No, I understand, yeah,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: and that trust me, that area has been walked very well.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: I spent two weeks out there doing it myself, as
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: well as a bunch of other people. And also that
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: most of this is all private property. It's very very
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: reviewed by these people. You don't go on there, you'll
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: get arrested. But what were they looking for when you
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: were searching any anything and everything out of the ordinary
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: was the direction that I give him. I said, anything
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: that looks out of place, if it's not a stick
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: or twig or something suggestion, And we did. I'm not
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: saying there's not something there. I mean, I'm not perfect,
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: but I did a pretty thorough search. Thank you for
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: being here. My name is Lynn King. I'm a private
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: investigator out of Atlanta, what we also called Nancy Grace
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: land Um. Anyway, but now I just wanted to say that,
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: you know, obviously, you know I've heard lots of coverage
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: on this. Just you know, I think you've kind of
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: already answered my question. I wanted to find out where
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: was the nearest like truck stop because I just don't
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: I just don't feel like this was a drifter. I
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: don't feel like it's somebody that was camped out there.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: This I just felt like he was a crime of opportunity.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: But I feel like he was prepared to do a crime.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: And look at his physique. He had not missed a meal.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: This is not some homeless person that doesn't have anything
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: to eat, that's shuffling for just money for food, this
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: guy is eating on a regular basis. So to answer
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: your question, about fifteen mile away to the north is
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: the nearest truck stop. Obviously we have gas station somewhere. Yeah.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: I don't get the feeling he's local, but I feel
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: like he was prepared that day to carry out a crime.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: I feel like he's already been in that area, so
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: he already knew how remote it was. And also just
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: you know, when it comes to cases like the way,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: that's another thought. Listen, when you have predators walking along
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: a track, they're not there to exercise. She's right, he
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: was there. It was either a crime of opportunity where
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: he wanted to rob somebody of get money and he
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: saw the girls and his motive changed. But he was
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: there to do a felony, which also narrows down who
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: we're looking for. We're looking for a guy that I
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: think has a record. It could be for something petty
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: like um peeping tom or snatching, grab breaking in a car, something.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: Because he didn't start at age forty plus. This is
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: not a homeless guy because he's well fed, his clothes
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: are decent, so and he's there to commit a felony
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: and he's not local. That's a lot of information. Has
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: anybody looked through the school district. I'm a teacher. If
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: this is an opportunity and he's been there to walk
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: the trails before, maybe he knew that the kids were
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: out of school that day. I'm not saying that he
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: watched your daughters one granddaughter. What I'm saying is, have
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: you checked through the school website where there are multiple
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: hits to look at your school calendar to see if
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: this guy knew that the school was going to be
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: out that day. That's good, that's a good point. I'll
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: take that one. There were people that looked that assumed
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: that well it had to been public knowledge that the
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: kids didn't have school that day. Well, yeah, if you
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: lived in the school district. But I don't go into
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: the Tennessee website and say, oh, well look at the
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: what school isn't going to be in school in session
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: in spring break? But I know you wouldn't but a
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: predator either. You're you are correct, guys. I know this
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: is totally politically incorrect. But before we close our podcast,
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: our serious radio show, m I want you to join
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: me and pray for an answer for them. Father, help
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: these families seek justice and lead us to help them
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: in any way we can amen with me right now,
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: the families of Abbey Williams and Libby Liberty German, help
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: us find them, help us find their killers. It's so
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: hard for me to even say their killers. When I
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: look at their pictures and I'll look at you, they
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: see so alive, and when you talk about their art
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: supplies and the time you saw them. The tip line
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: is eight four four four or five nine, five, seven,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: eight six. The website is Abbey A B. B Y
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: and Libby l I B b Y dot org Abbey
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: and Libby dot org. There is a two hundred and
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: forty thousand dollar reward. These girls were brutally murdered and
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: their killer is walking free, and we will not forget
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: and we will not rest until he has been brought
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: to justice. Tip line eight four four four, five, nine,
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: five seven eight six eight four four four, five, nine, five,
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: seven eight six. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, good
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: Bye fight