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12. Driving Gets You in Trouble · Dumb Defenses

• Frankie: Hello and welcome back to the Dumb Defenses podcast, where we go around the world and through time to bring you the weirdest legal theories. I'm Frankie. Judah: I'm Judah. Frankie: And in our second installment of our What in the Fresh Hell Judah: What the fresh hell. Well, first I wanna say we don't have a theme song yet. Frankie: We don't I have not yet spoken to the boy. Judah: I can try and make one too, but if you have one, send it in. any ideas 'cause today our theme song is just the sound of one hand clapping. Frankie: Yes. But also if you do send us a theme song to use, make sure that you have the rights to it and that you're okay with us using that and that it's not something that's copywritten. Please and thank you. Judah: Yeah, you have to have written it or like known somebody that's wrote it. as much as we'd like to, we can't use the Golden Girls theme. Somebody already has dibs on that. Frankie: Right. So before we dive into our what in the fresh hell topic, I do wanna tag it with a little bit of a content warning. There will be talk of suicidal ideation and attempts surrounding military service. So please take care of yourself and if needed to fast forward through this portion of the podcast. there's been some fantastic Judah: We talked about murder and never given that warning. Frankie: Yeah, I feel like this is a little bit different, so I'm gonna be talking about the USS Abraham Lincoln. There's been some fantastic reporting by Natalie Ovieiro at the Military Times. Stars and Stripes as well, I wrote down Stars and Stripes, but I did not write down the actual person's name. I'm so sorry. But also MSNow reporting by Priya Sridhar and Lindsay Pipia. So for those who are unaware, the USS Abraham Lincoln has been having some time in the news recently. its current deployment began back on November twenty-first of twenty twenty five, originally with orders to the Pacific, but then they were redirected when the military operation in Iran began. Typically deployments like this will last about six months, but this ship has spent a record 250 some odd days at sea. they did spend 208 continuous days at sea from leaving Guam on December 12th to a brief stop in Oman on July 7th that didn't actually have any sort of shore leave attached to it. they were confined to a very specific area. that 208 days broke the previous record set by the USS Eisenhower during the pandemic. General carriers will have port calls every thirty to forty-five days. This is to allow R&R, this is to allow replenishment of supplies, maintenance to the ship, etc. So this lack of replenishment has led to food rationing, water shortages, and an inability to do their laundry or even flush toilets. They were out rotting food. Judah: And rotting food. They're getting fed rotting food. Two tortillas and a cup of rice for lunch. Frankie: Yep. a carrier will come with a carrier group. So they also have like PT boats and subs all sorts of stuff along with them. they only have so much space. these ships are built to be very space efficient. my ex served on submarines and he talked about how In the beginning of the deployment, all of the canned goods that they would be eating later on in the deployment were under the walkways. So they would walk on their food and they would just go through the cans as they went through the deployment. And so there's enough food on board for a specific amount of time with this understanding that they're gonna be stopping every 30 to 45 days in order to make sure everything's replenished and the ship is in ship shape for lack of a better word. So they because they were out for so long, not only were they running out of food, they were out of soap, there was mold in the showers. one sailor reported seeing holes being worn in the flight deck. The Navy denies this. in April is when these allegations were beginning to crop up, but of course the Navy denied them. The Navy stated back in April that there was plenty of food for ten to thirty days, depending on which ship you're talking about in the carrier group. It is now August. They were finally able to stop in Oman briefly for replenishing, but sailors were confined to a secure compound within the port, so they didn't actually get their R&R The Navy has said that normal supply hubs in the Middle East are disrupted by the conflict. So, on top of the long deployment, due to the extent of the combat operations, reaching back to family has been hit or miss. Their internet has been spotty. Which, when you're on deployment, That call home is worth more than all the fresh food that you could have. When they do connect, families are reporting that their loved ones sound exhausted and weary. Many have spoken of jumping overboard just for relief. One did successfully jump overboard and he was in the water for an hour before he was rescued. Before jumping, he sent a message to his wife expressing that he had gone to his chain of command for help and got brushed off, and that he didn't know if he could finish his deployment. One sailor who's been in service for thirteen years expressed burned out to his wife prior to trying to jump, and now he has a fear of dishonorable discharge and is on a medical hold. Another sailor attempted to jump, but his shipmate caught him and pulled him onto the deck before he did. Yet another message to his wife that he hopes he doesn't wake up tomorrow, and another fears that she will be deployed forever and die on the ship. In response to this, the Navy has assured the public that there are chaplains and deployment resilience counselors on board and available to sailors when they need them, and that they are working towards sending additional mental health practitioners to the ship. The Navy also hasn't told the public exactly how many sailors have tried to jump overboard or engage in self-harm behaviors. They also can't give a deployment end date citing security concerns. This kind of burnout doesn't just affect the sailors on board the ship, but it also affects their families and the rest of the fleet. There was talks of sending the Theodore Roosevelt, but now it looks like the USS George Washington is going to be going to relieve them at some point, but we don't have a solid timeline on that. The hope is that they will know the timeline by the end of the year. So this ongoing war in Iran is dragging not just soldiers in. We've got Marines and sailors on these ships who don't know when the end of the deployment's gonna be. They don't know when they're gonna be able to restock because all the ports are aside from Oman are having trouble and now the president is picking fights with Oman for some reason. So who knows where they're gonna restock next. It is a dire, dire situation. having to pull either the Washington or the Roosevelt, it's sounding like it's gonna be the Washington That's going to leave the Pacific without any American presence, which is a threat to Taiwan. there's just all sorts of what in the fresh hell is going on here. I did dig into chapter ten of the US Code is what regulates the military. So I looked into RR requirements. 10 USC 705A requires that service members are entitled to not more than 15 days of R and R when assigned or deployed to a combat zone or hazard zone for over 270 days. So we're not quite at the 270 days. and that number makes sense when you're talking about ground troops. just because their their supply lines are different and they're they're not really there's not really a place to go home to and then come back for 15 days. But when you're on a ship, just getting some shore time makes a world of difference in terms of morale. I also looked into some management responsibilities. Ten USC 991 says that management must ensure that a deployment or a continued deployment does not exceed either the one year high deployment threshold or the two year high deployment threshold. The one-year high deployment threshold is 220 days, which can be lowered by the Secretary of Defense. But then there's another subsection that says the Secretary of Defense can also completely ignore that rule. So it seems to be a rule without teeth, and we wind up in situations that we're in with the USS Abraham Lincoln. There's also some Navy specific rules. I looked into the rations. 10 USC 8241. says that every enlisted member of the Navy is entitled to one ration per day of deployment. 8242 says that the president would prescribe the portions of that ration. And if there's a need for emergency rations, it's in addition to the regular daily ration. So if they're in an emergency situation, not only do they get their regular ration, they get the emergency ration on top of that. And in hospital settings, so not necessarily on ships, but in hospital settings, Fresh or preserved fruits, milk, butter, and eggs are required. 10 USC 8244 says a sailor's basic subsistence pay is paid to the mess when they are assigned while on deployment. So all of that money that a sailor would normally get as a kicker on their paycheck, that money gets paid to the mess so that the mess can afford to feed them while they're on deployment. And also on top of that, for some reason, ten USC eighty-two forty-seven, the mess is allowed to sell their meals. I haven't really heard of that being an issue in this particular deployment, but it's in there. So there are rules about how long somebody can be deployed, but they're super squishy. And unfortunately, that's not much relief for the sailors that are really struggling aboard the Lincoln and in that carrier group. Judah: And our Secretary of Defense is a dumbass. Frankie: That too. and he's essentially told the press that there's no there there, there's nothing to worry about, people are making it up. Judah: And I've seen pictures of what people are being fed, like Frankie: Yeah. With th they're sending pictures to their family, they're calling their family, making some pretty terrifying statements to receive on the other end. These people are not doing well. Judah: And it's easy to think of a ship as being like an entire hub of people but all of those are human beings, real human beings. Frankie: Yes. There are about five thousand people that serve aboard an aircraft carrier generally. I don't have the exact number for the Lincoln. submarines are two hundred, three hundred people, and there's a few of those in a carrier group and and on down as the ships get smaller there's more of them type thing. But five thousand people alone aboard the the carrier. Yeah. Judah: And you know, predominantly still men by a lot. Frankie: the carrier itself is gonna have more females than say like submarines. submarines were men only for the longest time and now they are single gender ships just because of just Judah: you're trapped in a tin can. Frankie: because you're trapped in a tin can. It's a very, very small space. Judah: Under the ocean. Frankie: It's a very small space. Judah: Yeah. Well, you know, hopefully our Secretary of Defense in some way partially pulls his head out of his ass and provides some relief to the floating town that's been stuck in the Middle East for almost a year. Frankie: Yep. Yep. Judah: And Frankie: They left Guam in December of last year, They did not touch land until July seventh when they had that brief, I believe less than twenty-four hour stop in Oman to r restock a little bit. and they've been at sea ever since. So they are they're stretching the bounds of what is okay for these people. who have dedicated their lives to keeping our country safe. Judah: To service young people. Well, I don't know how to pivot that into a relatively lighthearted topic. Well Frankie: That's why it's what in the fresh hell. Judah: yeah, it's like I said last week, it's not what in the fresh good news. so today I was gonna talk about the origins of NASCAR. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: And this is near and dear to my heart. My mom is from Western Kentucky. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: And I have a a lot of family still today in the Appalachian Mountains. My grandfather was born in a cabin in the Appalachian Mountains. And I love the culture, I love the food, it's really pretty there. And This is one of the finer stories and I dug up more than I was expecting to. Frankie: Nice. Judah: So some of these things I knew. about when do you think the moonshine runners started having to avoid federal revenue agents? Frankie: Probably the twenties would be my guess. Maybe earlier. I don't know. I watched Moonshiners for a little bit. It was fun. but I didn't really catch much of the history of it. Judah: Yeah, seventeen ninety five. Frankie: Holy crap. Judah: Have you ever heard of the Whiskey Rebellion? Frankie: Yes. Judah: So I got this article from history dot com called the Whiskey Rebellion. It just says by history.com editors. So there was a whiskey tax put into place by the federal government and there was an uprising of farmers in Pennsylvania that was quashed by the federal government. But here at this time we're seeing the taxation of whiskey. And that whole story is its own very interesting thing, but there's another article I read that noted people in Appalachia are already producing distilled alcohol and selling it, so they didn't really know at the time that they were Frankie: Not supposed to be doing that. Judah: yeah, not supposed to be doing that or even that there was a tax in place. So the reason behind why is there moonshine? I read from Winning Homebrew had a pretty good summary article, the history of moonshine in Appalachia. And there's a really fun website that I encourage you to go to. Maybe we could put it in the show notes. Frankie: We can put it in the show notes. Judah: The Mob Museum has a prohibition exhibit and they have a fun like game that's not informative at all, but there's a game on this site that's pretty cute. and they have a neat shorter article and Another good article from Atlas Obscura, how a group of daring bootleggers created NASCAR by Tov Danovich. And how Moonshine bootlegging gave rise to Nazcar by Jennifer Billock. But the shorter version of Moonshine and this is how my family wound up in Appalachia. is a lot of immigrants, Irish, Scottish, German, emigrate to the US. And the thing that gives rise to this wonderful culture is a lot of them were like, I really don't like what's over here and I don't wanna be a part of it. This all kind of sucks. So we're gonna go to Appalachia. And they moved out to where there was nobody. So that they could be free. So it kind of attracted a group of People already anti authoritarian, already very suspicious of the government. It brought together a number of groups and of course there was already indigenous people living in the area, but later on a large band of the Cherokee Nation, during that forced march, where so many people died and they were forcibly quote rehomed to Frankie: Mm. Judah: Oklahoma, a huge branch of those people also went, I'm not doing this either and they left this Death March and they moved to Appalachia. So there was a new influx of Native American people, so you get this group all together, and there's a few things that are going on. They are isolated, they're very rural, the infrastructure connecting them to other major hubs is really not there, and also economically disenfranchised. You know, they're Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: not super connected, and also they don't wanna be there's a great sort of battle from the Civil War where the Confederate Army is coming to try and conscript a bunch of these mountain boys into the Confederate army. And there's just a few of them park themselves on top of a mountain and just defeat an entire Confederate battalion trying to forcibly conscript them. And how they got all those mountain boys to show up is they sent a message insulting their mothers. So they show up, they park themselves and they win this thing and I love this kind of continuing ethos and attitude and there's incredible art from the area. So you have this all together and there's a primary cash crop which is corn that's being Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: grown. But how are you supposed to get all that corn to market to make money? Road suck, you know you're very far distance. So they just did what especially the Scots who would move to the area were already doing, which is home distillation. It was a part of the culture that was existing. So it was this really natural outpouring. We got all this corn, you know, wheat, barley, and we're gonna distill that down into a much more expensive, fiery little product. And we're gonna sell that product much easier to transport on the open market. So that had been going on for generations Frankie: Yeah. Judah: before prohibition. And eventually when people were found and like you gotta pay taxes on this, they're like, absolutely not. No way are we paying taxes. This Frankie: This is our culture. Judah: is our culture. It's not like the feds had ever done anything good for the area. so before prohibition. Folks are already running moonshine. And there Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: is a precedent for what kind of became moonshine in American culture, in Scottish culture. It's known as like a clear whiskey. So Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yep. Judah: that thought already existed. And I'm gonna take a pause here for an actual family story. When my Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: parents got married, they got married in Kentucky. And It is a traditional I have family members that still have a still. And I know who they are, but I won't say 'cause I'm not a snitch. but they're nice Frankie: You can also buy stills on Amazon for like a hundred bucks, so it's not like they're inaccessible. Judah: They have a still, it's a big still, and moonshine, a jar, a glass jar of moonshine is a traditional wedding gift. now my mom's from Kentucky. My dad's not. my dad's sister's like, I just want to taste it. So she put her finger into the moonshine to taste it, and it took her fingernail polish off. Frankie: my god. Judah: it's good st that stuff will put hair on your chest, all right. Frankie: So I watched Moonshiners or something like that for a little bit. It was like a moonshine competition, like chopped but for moonshine. And apparently you can tell the alcohol content by shaking it and like how it bubbles and Judah: interesting. Well you know that there's so there's also the heart. If you so the first bit when you're distilling is poisonous. Frankie: Yeah. You don't use you don't take the point the first part and you don't take the last part 'cause it doesn't have any alcohol in it. You just take the middle. Judah: Yeah, 'cause the first part is methanol and that'll make you blind and kill your liver. And Frankie: Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm. Judah: then the middle part's the good part, and the last part is just steamy stuff that's coming up. So it's the heart. so that was a true thing. I've had moonshine. It's it's that'll get ya. Frankie: I too have had moonshine. It hurts. Mm-hmm. Judah: if you think, is this vodka? No. Frankie: No. Judah: So they've got all this they're and they're already running it, but when I'm looking through there's some reports of like people busting up stills and some activity, but it's not to the scale it becomes during prohibition. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: Cause prohibition comes around and they're like, you know who already has a network of extremely strong alcohol. Who has been openly willing to defy federal agents for well over a hundred years now? It's us. Mazal. So the game is on. The fun thing about this is there appears to be kind of a friendly rivalry between the federal agents and The moonshine runners, like I read some Yeah, I read Frankie: Like cat and mouse almost. Judah: some reports where people were given compliments. So how NASCAR starts is they've amped up and they're making a ton of money on producing liquor. And they need a way to transport it. So they have to make it Frankie: So they start driving in circles. Judah: No. Well, no. The what they want is a car that looks really average from the outside, but it does two very important things. It's not sagging under the weight of Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: all the alcohol that they're transporting, Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: and is really souped up under the hood. So there's all these at-home modifications to really be making these ordinary cars go fast. Really, really Frankie: Mm. Judah: fast. I mean this is a time there's no Ferrari, you know, sports cars do not exist. So they're taking Frankie: Right. Judah: ordinary sedans and they are souping them up. They're also putting them through their own rigorous tests to make sure that this vehicle can outrun authority by like driving them over rough terrain, testing the tires, all this kind of car testing. Frankie: My gosh. Judah: for durability and speed and these early drivers become local legends. And the better and faster a driver you were, the cooler you were in the area. you can look online on some of these articles and see what kind of modifications they did. And there's more descriptions of how they hid ordinary looking barns where they would lift a wall up. A whole car would drive in and they'd put the wall down behind him. Frankie: yeah. And then put the wall back down. Judah: the thing that I learned that was surprising and delightful to me, because I appreciate this kind of outlaw spirit, is Frankie: Mm. Judah: that Spokane, Washington, where I grew up, was a big hub for running liquor from Canada. And I had never really thought about the people that were running it from the north down, because it was legal in Canada. And so there Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Judah: was this really thriving black market business for years. Now what happens when prohibition's over? Frankie: Womp womp. Judah: the heyday of Moonshine Running was prohibition. And NASCAR was really started in nineteen forty eight. Frankie: Okay. Judah: NASCAR itself goes back to these souped up cars, this idea of racing, the thing that had become a pastime, and it legitimizes it and some of the famous early NASCAR drivers openly admitted to getting their start in driving, running liquor. then they became this legitimate sport. But what happens to bootlegging? Well the bootlegging still is going. Frankie: I gonna say people still do it. Judah: People still do it. And there was still a good but not super thriving market for moonshine. they're making a ton of money, but you're also undercutting the price of all these taxed, formal distillery liquors. then as we're moving ahead in time, an important shift happens. the price of sugar goes up. And America is very interested in another illicit substance, marijuana. So here we go. what I use for this is a market in transition: drug trafficking in southern Appalachia by Dr. Brent Patterline, which is kind of longer and drier and if you want something a little bit more charming a Washington Post article from nineteen seventy seven Appalachia moonshiners are replacing their stills with marijuana patches Frankie: Ha ha ha. Judah: so weed becomes the next big thing. This article describes federal agents finding stills and marijuana patches next to each other, illegal stills and illegal marijuana patches. Frankie: Gotta love the crossfade. Judah: It says that year in nineteen seventy-seven, the Federal Treasury agents had found the fewest amount of stills that they'd ever found since nineteen thirty three. And it also details how the price of sugar had really skyrocketed in nineteen seventy-five. I mean, we're also talking about the oil crisis. 97% of the 557 stills seized nationwide last year were North Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina, Virginia, Mississippi, Tennessee, and Florida. Most of the stills were found in the Appalachian Mountains. liquor production, illegal liquor production that was found with two acres of illegal marijuana plants. Frankie: Holy shit. Judah: so there was a switch that pulled over where they're were having weed production and weed running along the same networks as the Frankie: Moonshiners Judah: Moonshiners. But it's all about, FTG fuck the government Frankie: Mm. Judah: and making money. It does note here this connection that the mountains had to a new ally, Mexico. And how it was suspected that they were to get more bulk, kind of mixing the lesser quality Appalachian weed Frankie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Judah: higher quality Mexican weed and selling it all as kind of like regular weed. they're running there was a period of time where eighty percent of the illicitly grown marijuana in the United States was estimated to be grown on federal land. Frankie: illegal on multiple levels. Judah: Yes. So there is a shift there. Looking at the the dryer article of today, there's still weed running, there's still moonshine running. Sadly a lot of the market for people wanting to make a living has gone I would call a little bit of weed, little bit of booze, pretty innocuous. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: Now it's like pills, meth. Frankie: Yeah. Judah: not Yeah Frankie: Stuff that can really hurt you. I mean alcohol can really hurt you, but Judah: Yeah, but alcohol is very culturally acceptable. but pills and meth, fentanyl, pretty bad news. But I love this kind of charming time and this couple of generations of transition where we're like, Well, we're not making as much money on moonshine, let's just grow weed. Frankie: Let's just grow weed. Judah: Let's grow we've got the networks, we've got the Frankie: Mm. Judah: space, it's very rural. And if you're thinking about in nineteen seventy five they smashed five hundred and seventy seven stills. they were talking about going back year after year to the same locations where they didn't know who was running it and smashing the same still over and over. 'Cause people just go, They're cheap to rebuild, feds came back in, put the still back together, get some new jars and shit. So they would just every year, like a tour. We're gonna go back to this same spot. We don't know who's running it. Smash it up. Leave. They immediately rebuild it, probably in one day. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yep. Judah: More moonshine. That is the charming way that NASCAR was started souped up regular working class people running from federal agents at high speeds on winding mountain roads with homemade modifications, gave us the turn left now sport that we know today. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: I would although it's probably more dangerous, I would love to see some real classic Car racing featuring like old school condition. Frankie: They did that occasionally down in Douglas County, out at the racetrack at the fairgrounds. They had some older car races there sometimes, which was fun, but also you're like, Don't crash, you're too pretty to die. Judah: I would like hey everybody here can have a nineteen eighty eight Honda Accord Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: and you have to do all of the modifications yourself and then you all race your cars. You can't buy aftermarket parts, you are manufacturing everything yourself with the most generic looking vehicle possible. Now Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: race. Frankie: Isn't that also like the most stolen vehicle of all time? Yeah. Yeah. Judah: 'Cause you can use a screwdriver to get into it, but Frankie: I was not expecting NASCAR to connect in with that. That was that was a fun story. Judah: Yep. when their activities became illegal they didn't notice and when they did notice, they just upped their game. Frankie: Yep. That's awesome. On a completely different note. we're doing we're having terrible transitions today, and I'm so sorry. Judah: On like how yeah, we're not managing these transitions that really the USS Lincoln thousands of sailors and marines are on a boat suffering. then we have kind of what I would consider a charming, whimsical, fun outlaw story of producing illicit liquor and running a little bit of weed in a very fast car. Which I admire. Frankie: Yes. And also back then the police cars probably didn't go that fast either. Judah: Well there was it talks about like there's kind of like an arms race where they're having to make the federal government vehicles go faster and then they're getting better at racing these cars. There's Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: other things about like transporting moonshine across fields and they didn't want people to know that there was all these people walking across these fields. So they made fake cow hoof shoes that they would walk in so it just looked like cattle Frankie: Like cows running around. Judah: cattle in the field. heck yeah and all of this is Frankie: There's a lot of creativity that goes into that. Judah: homegrown ingenuity. Frankie: Yeah. That's awesome. my story is the opposite of ingenuity because sleepwalking. So this is R. v. Parks. It's a 1992 Yes. Judah: and now I'm gonna tell you about a dream I had last night. Frankie: Okay. Judah: last night I dream I dreamt that I was in the opposite of a home makeover show, that you had a certain amount of time to make a house as ugly looking as you possibly could. And I was outside and my wife's like, Bring more weeds into the yard. More weeds. That's ingenious. I'd watch that show. Frankie: So R. v. Parks, this is a 1992 Supreme Court of Canada case. I looked at the original source material, I looked at an AP news article, and then I looked at a Guardian article by Matthew Blakes called If You Kill Someone in Your Sleep, Are You a Murderer? So on Sunday, May 24th, of 1987, Kenneth James Parks fell asleep on his couch in his home while watching Saturday Night Live. When he woke up, he was at his in-laws home twenty-three kilometers or fourteen point three miles away, with a knife in his hands, and his mother-in-law was dying in front of him with no memory of how he got there, or that he struck his mother-in-law with a tire iron and stabbed her four or five times, or that he choked and stabbed his father-in-law, who said he never saw who had attacked him. Immediately afterwards, because once you wake up from something like that, You're freaked the fuck out. Immediately afterwards he drove to the police station and told them, I've just killed someone with my bare hands. my god, I just killed someone, I've just killed two people. My god, I've just killed two people with my bare hands. My god, I've just killed two people. My hands, I've killed two people, I killed them, I just killed two people, I've killed my mother and father-in-law, I stabbed them and beat them to death. It's all my fault. Judah: Wow, did you practice that before you had to read Frankie: No, Judah: it? Frankie: I just read it. Judah: That's pretty good. Frankie: I am an actor. Judah: Actor, here we are. Why are we doing fake Italian accents? You started it. Frankie: I don't know. I I'm sorry. so the year prior to this happening, he'd had a really rough year, there'd been some financial troubles, he got into some gambling debt. his in-laws were aware of this and were being super supportive of him, and he actually had a particularly close relationship with his mother-in-law. So what happened? He was sleepwalking. He'd always been a heavy sleeper. And has a family history of sleep disturbances, including sleepwalking. his defense attorney said that he quote, plunged into a deep, deep sleep, and his next memory was seeing his mother in law's face, end quote. He had no idea how he got into that house. So he was charged with one count of first degree murder and one count of attempted murder. His mother in law passed away, his father in law survived. He presented the defense of non-insane automatism, which we talked about back in episode two. so I'm not gonna go too too deep into that and how we come to that. But essentially, what it is is your body is doing things without the mind being on board. And sleepwalking is kind of that quintessential example of automatism because you're literally not conscious. So the defense called five expert witnesses, which like I've called maybe one or two, like five expert witnesses to prove one thing is quite a lot. they called a neurophysiologist with a specialty in sleep disorders, a neurologist, a psychiatrist, a forensic psychiatrist, and a dual-certified neuropsychiatrist. They all testified that Mr. Parks was sleepwalking at the time of the offense, that he was not suffering from a mental illness, and that sleepwalking itself is not considered. An illness at all. The reason for this is that it's quite common in children to sleepwalk, and even in adults, it's not uncommon. It happens in about two to two and a half percent of the population of adults, that people just never grow out of it. they also testified that during sleep, quote, volition is not present, nor is the ability to stop one's actions once they have started, and the chance of recurrent violence is absolutely improbable. So we're dealing with that non-insane automatism in Oregon, as we've talked about before, it would be the equivalent of a diminished capacity defense, as opposed to an insane automatism, which would be the equivalent of a GEI defense here in Oregon. Kind of different standards. the non-insane automatism or the diminished capacity is like, are you able to form the intent to do the thing? No, you're asleep. There is no intent forming when you're asleep. Your prefrontal cortex is completely offline. So five defense experts, which were not at all contradicted by the Crown. When the crown talked the press, they're like, Well, this is ludicrous But they had prosecution experts present, they just didn't call them to testify. Why? I have no fucking clue. Judah: Maybe they all agreed with the defenses experts. Frankie: Maybe. Maybe they were maybe they were just trying to pull something out of their ass, which they kind of did. So the crown relied on a British precedent that found that sleepwalking was insane automatism. but the medical evidence in that case was completely different and even contradictory for Mr. Park's case. they touched on it very briefly, but essentially the experts said something completely different. So in this case, we've got five experts all agreeing, and the prosecution not trying to fight it, that this person was sleepwalking and that sleepwalking is not a disease of the mind. at that time, there had been about 35 documented cases of sleepwalking murders in the world, so that was in 1992. I checked that to date there's a total of 68. So there've been another 33 since 1992. Judah: So is this is this like did he have a sleep disorder like the comedian Mike Barbiglia has? Frankie: They didn't really go into that. They just said that he's always been in a really deep sleeper and he has always sleepwalked. It's just always been a thing. Judah: Okay. 'Cause like do you know about Mike Burbiglia? Frankie: I do not. Judah: He's got a great movie I think it's called Sleep Walk With Me. He's a really intense sleep disorder. It came to a head, not because he killed somebody, but because he walked through a plate glass window in the second floor of a hotel. And Frankie: I did hear about that, yeah. Judah: because his sleep disorder is so severe, he has to sleep in a separate room from his wife and daughter where he's locked in. He sleeps in mittens in a Frankie: So so that sounds familiar and that might be further down in my notes. so we'll get to that. Hold that thought. Judah: Okay. Frankie: So the judge put the defense of automatism to the jury, which acquitted Mr. Parks on both the first degree murder and then a lesser included of second degree murder. sometimes what can happen is if the main charge is is a first degree murder. But maybe you don't hit all the widgets of the first degree murder, but you hit the widgets of like a second degree murder or a manslaughter. That's what a lesser included is. so that went to the jury, and then the court acquitted him on the attempted murder of his father in law. So the Crown appealed, even though they didn't put up a fight. And the Court of Appeal unanimously upheld the acquittals, reasoning that the condition that the impaired mind's functioning wasn't the sleepwalking, but the the sleep which is a natural condition. Right? Judah: Okay. I mean I'm not fighting on this one. Your non insane automatism from the last one where that guy tried to wring the neck of that poor woman. Frankie: Yeah. But that so like what I found interesting about the Court of Appeals reasoning is that they're like the sleepwalking isn't the problem. The sleepwalking isn't what's making him not competent to create an intent. It's the fact that he's asleep. So while the sleepwalking may be a sleep disturbance, the sleep itself is what's cutting off the ability to form intent. And sleep is something we all do, hopefully every day. For eight hours. Sometimes. so they found that the trial court was correct in sending the non insane automatisms for the jury. Yeah. Judah: See this yeah, I'll buy on this one. I'll buy it on this one. And there's some really serious sleep disorders out there maybe in nineteen ninety two they didn't have like the testing or the knowledge or the ability Frankie: Yeah. Judah: to dig into what exactly is happening in this person's brain. I slept walk a couple of times when I was a kid. Frankie: Mm. It's really common in kids apparently. and I Judah: Has your kid ever sleptwalked? Frankie: He has definitely come into our room that I'm not sure he's entirely conscious. And he kinda comes in and either we're like, okay, bud, go back to bed, and he just kinda child the corn, turns around and leaves. Or he'll just climb into bed with us. So Judah: Snuggle. Frankie: yeah. it's common in kids. So again, the Crown decided to appeal, and the question presented to the Supreme Court of Canada was whether sleepwalking should be considered Non-insane automatism which results in an acquittal or insane automatism which would require a special verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity. Okay, so we talked about the differences between those previously. I was a little unclear what was the majority opinion because the chief justice wrote first, but it said dissenting in part. So I'm a little confused about where the actual majority opinion is, but we start off with the Chief Justice's partial concurrence, partial dissent. first of all, he recognizes the precedent set in R. v. Raby, which is the case that we talked about in episode two. but for some reason queried whether that should be overruled. He then went through all sorts of Canadian and international case law and Black's Law Dictionary. He Judah: whenever they pull out Black Slot Dictionary, you know that we are s scraping the very dregs at the bottom of the barrel. Frankie: So Black's Law Dictionary is this book that allegedly defines every single legal term that you'll ever need, which it doesn't. and also you're told to buy it as part of your first year law books, and then you never use it. And it's this giant, Judah: Never use it. You never use it. Frankie: coffee table sized book. Judah: It's like seventy five thousand dollars. Yeah. Frankie: And 75,000 pages, and you never fucking use it. But anyways, the excerpt from Blackswall that they pulled out says behavior performed in a state of mental unconsciousness or dissociation without full awareness, i.e., somnobulism, which is sleepwalking, and fugues, which is like dissociation, hysteria, stuff like that. The term is applied to actions or conduct of an individual apparently occurring without will, purpose, or reasoned intention on his part, a condition sometimes observed in persons who, without actually being insane, suffer from an obscuration of mental faculties, loss of volition or memory, or kindred affections. So literally when you're talking about lack of intent forming conditions, sleepwalking is in the dictionary. Like it is the dictionary definition. Why the crown kept fighting this, I do not know. Judah: I don't know if they wanted that definition real bad, but whenever you see Black's Law Dictionary in a ruling, you know that some poor clerk went to the very back of some closet. They pull out this gigantic they pull Frankie: It's like I need to prove this. I need to prove this. Judah: out this gigantic case and they go and they're blowing all the dust off this thing. Ha ha Frankie: And they open it and a fly comes out. Judah: and then they're okay, let's just see if this helps us get to the point that we're already trying to make because Black's Law Dictionary is not precedent. It's not even a persuasive authority. Frankie: No, it's not. It's not. I mean, it's a learned treatise, maybe. But anyways, Judah: But sort of. Frankie: so like they quote Black's Law Dictionary, they go through site after, and this is the Chief Justice goes through site after site after site, internationally recognizing that sleepwalking is the quintessential example of this non-insane automatism. And ultimate Judah: I would think it's seizure, but go ahead. Frankie: Fair. ultimately the Supreme Court did dismiss this appeal, but the Chief Justice contemplated a question of if there should be some sort of control over Mr. Parks despite the acquittal. this is where this case got like Judah: Yeah. Frankie: more interesting for me. This was the subject of Mr. Park's cross appeal, where he objected to any such order being made against him without adequate notice, because it wasn't something that came up at the trial level, I don't think. the Chief Justice calls this preventative justice, which has been utilized for centuries in England. There is some precedent for it from the Ontario High Court of Justice. that issue was challenged Based on notice, because the defendant wasn't warned in advance that such an order could be put in place despite being acquitted in this Ontario case. The Ontario High Court of Justice essentially said that a witness would need to be given notice of being bound over, but not the defendant, ultimately concluding, I think it would be at least courteous and perhaps wise that it should be done, but I am unable to elevate the principle to the height at which it can be said that a failure to give such warning is a breach of the rules of natural justice. Which as a defense attorney breaks my heart because notice is so important that we file motions about it as we're walking into trial, being like, hey state, you gotta pick whether, it's the punch or the elbow that's the assault here, right? and now the Court of Appeals has told us, no, you have to do that earlier if you want to actually get harm out of it. But the Chief Justice contemplates this in Mr. Park's situation where the testimony was that the chances of a repeat instance are essentially nil and the chances that it would have happened in the first place were infinitesimally small, the Chief Justice says, but it happened, despite those chances being infinitesimally small that you're gonna murder somebody in your sleep. A suggested order was to have Mr. Parks report to a sleep specialist occasionally to ensure that he has proper sleep hygiene. Cause that was some of the testimony at the trial level was is this preventable? Cause one of the things that you need to talk about, in order to get the insane automatism is whether or not something's repeatable. And so what one of I think the sleep specialists was talking about was like If you practice good sleep hygiene, going to bed at the same time every night, stuff like that, no caffeine before bed, those types of things will reduce the chances that you'll go on a little jaunt while your brain remains asleep. So Judah: I like if you've accidentally killed your in laws, you might put some door alarms on there, some window alarms. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. so the Chief Justice suggests to leave it to the trial court, saying that it should advise the parties to follow the evidence. There's recognition on the Chief Justice's part this would restrict Mr. Park's liberty and that any restriction should not violate his rights. he reasons that balancing public safety, it would not intrude on his rights if properly noticed. to explore, quote, imposing some minimally intrusive conditions which seek to assure the safety of the community, end quote, and that those conditions imposed quote, must rationally be connected to the apprehended danger by the person and go no further than necessary to protect the public from this danger, end quote. So the Chief Justice would allow the trial court to consider imposing such an order. What I think is the majority opinion expresses caution on this because such an order would need to be permanent, which would violate established practice regarding these orders if not the law. Right? there have been cases in Oregon challenging like permanent probations, stuff like that. it takes a lot in order to get something that is permanent in place. Judah: Well and and in those circumstances, because there's certain offenses which can qualify for lifetime conditions. Frankie: Correct. Judah: But they've all been found in the jurisdiction of the court. Yes, Frankie: They've all been found guilty, yes. Judah: if there's an acquittal in the United States, you're over. It's done. Frankie: It's done. It it's done. It's done. Which is why this was so wild to me that they're even contemplating this when he's been acquitted, right? the majority opinion talks about the orders would have to be for a specific time. and even if they're only for a specific time, enforcement is still problematic because only Mr. Parks and his family would be available to essentially rat on him. There's no complainant in the case like there would be in like a FAPA order, a stalking order or something. Yeah, some sort of restraining Judah: a Family Abuse Prevention Act Order. Frankie: order. because there's no complainant there isn't a protective order, there's really nobody to keep this eye on him. and it's unrealistic for the family to do so. And so the Supreme Court does not remand it for the trial judge to consider this order. In examining this issue and the issue of non-insane automatism, they also talk about not only examining the evidence against Mr. Parks for insane versus not, but also policy considerations, including the duration of the condition and the likelihood of recurrence. I have made all sorts of policy arguments, especially in civil commitment cases in Oregon and the trial court. will not do anything with it. They're like, we are not in that position to do that. That is the legislature's job. And I'm like, yeah, okay, but the legislature messes up. ultimately they decided that no prevailing policy conditions precluded the non-insane automatism, as neither the evidence nor the policy concerns overcame the crown's burden, which they horribly failed to meet by not calling anybody. To counter five expert witnesses. Judah: I don't feel like you you should get to talk after that if you're not making an argument at the trial level. Like Frankie: Right, right. And they kept appeal so there was another concurring opinion, much shorter one, saying basically the same thing as a majority opinion, but also saying that the Supreme Court making an order sua sponte would be inappropriate. and so it agrees with dismissing the appeal and the cross appeal. And then there was a final opinion that pointed out that it's been five years since this whole thing happened and Mr. Parks is quote making courageous efforts to reestablish his life, end quote. So why start the process of a peacekeeping order at this point? It's also not something to be done without the Crown asking for it, which they haven't. I don't know who the prosecutor was in this case, but like why bring the case if you're not gonna do anything? they do at the end, as policy considerations should, they're like, maybe parliament should look at this. and I do have after story. Judah: I didn't react that much because I knew all about this story already, 'cause it's kind of famous, even Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so Judah: though it's Canadian. Frankie: yep, so after story of this, he eventually went on to have a normal life. He had six kids, which whether or not that's normal life, that's a different issue. in 2006 he made an ill-fated run for school trustee. This brought all of the questions back to the public's eye that had been since nineteen eighty seven bubbling up back to light. People accused him of faking the sleepwalking to get away with murder. There were questions raised about the validity of the defense. And even if he were sleepwalking, if you have your eyes open and your brain is asleep, did you still do it? he wound up withdrawing his candidacy 'cause it was too Judah: I mean like Frankie: much. Judah: I feel bad for him because he was s like Frankie: He was sleepwalking. Judah: he was asleep. He was sleepwalking and he did not mean to kill his in laws. Frankie: and he wouldn't have if he was awake. He loved them. He absolutely loved them. Like, but the can you also just think about like Judah: Yeah. And he had he had to deal with that trauma. Frankie: driving fourteen miles while you're asleep? the things that your body can do just on instinct is wild. So Mr. Parks was not the first nor the last to raise a defense of sleepwalking to murder. Going back to eighteen fifty nine in London, a woman named Esther Griggs screamed Save my children while throwing one of them out the window. Her two other children were asleep in bed. She was having a dream that the house was on fire and she flung her infant son out the window to save him Judah: no. Frankie: from the flames. She was acquitted of the murder. another one from the nineteenth century on April ninth of eighteen seventy eight, Simon Fraser believed he was saving his family from a wild beast that had come up through the floorboards by smashing it to the ground. When he woke up, he found he had killed his toddler. Frasier showed that he had a long history of night terrors and sleepwalking, and his case was discharged by the court, provided he sleep alone in a locked room for the rest of his life. I have one more that was maybe not sleepwalking because he got convicted. Judah: Okay. Frankie: So in nineteen seventy seven, Scott Falater stabbed his wife forty-four times, hid the knife and bloody clothes in the trunk of his car, and held her head under the surface of the pool. He claimed he was sleepwalking, but a neighbor saw him give the dog directives to lay, which the jury took as consciousness of guilt. Which is like, okay. Judah: Okay, I mean I can buy that. Plus forty four times screaming, not waking up. Like they'd have to be a pretty compelling sleep disorder argument. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. So Guy Leschziner who is a neurologist and a sleep specialist, explains that being awake or asleep isn't an on off switch like we think it is. Various parts of our brains are always dipping in and out of sleep, which is called local sleep. He explains, quote, there is very clear evidence that That when people are sleepwalking, it's the parts of the brain responsible for emotion, movement, and vision that show the waking pattern, whereas the parts of the brain that are responsible for rational thinking and memory demonstrate sleeping behavior. If you think about which parts of the brains are disconnected, it's the bits that are responsible for being a sensible human being. That's why people exhibit strange phenomena like sleep terrors, end quote. And also, just as a bit of a statistic, Approximately twenty two percent of people sleepwalk, many of them with their eyes open. Judah: I've seen sleepwalk with eyes open. I also have sleep paralysis. Do you have this? Frankie: Sometimes. when I was first getting evaluated for sleep apnea, my pulmonologist was like, so this is gonna be a weird question. Do you ever see like a figure or a monster Judah: the hat man. Frankie: at the end of your bed? And I'm like, No. So Judah: Yeah. Frankie: like three weeks ago, I finally saw it. And I was like, that's the sleep apnea monster, and then I fell back asleep. Ha ha ha ha. Judah: I don't have that kind of sleep disorder. I have this problem where a lot of medication has what's called the rebound effect, Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: where I'll rebound out of sleep and I'll be in that in between deep sleep and wakefulness. Frankie: Like lucid dreaming type thing. Judah: Well, I wish I had control over it, but I don't. But my favorite time of doing that, which Megan remembers and I don't, is I was mostly asleep and she came into the bedroom and first of all I had this belief I remember this that it was really, really cold and I distinctly remember seeing her be naked. This is my spouse. And I was like, It's Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: too cold, you're naked, you're naked and she says she's standing there in like full pajama set, like sweatshirt, pajama pants, and she's like, I'm not naked and I'm like, You're naked, it's too Frankie: Yeah. Judah: cold, you're naked So that wasn't a hat monster, I just I remember seeing her naked and it being really cold. And she remembers me being like, why are you naked? Frankie: Ha ha ha. I don't have any conscious memory of anything like that, but when I was in college, I was gonna take a nap, but I asked my roommate to wake me up so I could go to services. And then I wake up and it's dark out and it's seven o'clock and I'm like, dude, I asked you to wake me up. She's like, I did, you were up, you were talking, and I have no memory of this. Judah: No memory of that. I mean I have horrible night terrors and I've had like weird sleep paralysis stuff. I've never seen the Hatman described Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: another podcast on the internet, or like dark figures. It's more like I have this impression that I can't move my body and there's sc scary stuff happening that I can't Frankie: I've gotten that before and like Judah: see. Frankie: I've definitely had the sleep paralysis not routinely, but like if there's like a loud sound that would wake me up but it wakes up my mind but not my body. So it's like the opposite of sleepwalking and I'm like I can't move. What the fuck? And Judah: I've had that. Frankie: I have in some instances been able to turn a rem dream into a lucid dream and wake myself up. Which takes effort, but i was in high school. So I had this dream that I was like in a war zone and a shell went off and I got knocked over and I'm laying there and something in my brain was just like, this can't be real. I'm sleeping. This is a dream. And so I tried to make myself wake up by forcing my eyes open. So of course, in the dream, I'm like. Like trying to Judah: Yeah. Frankie: make my eyes bug out of my head until like slowly my eyes like actually opened up for realsies. but yeah, I've done that on a few occasions and I'm just like, this isn't real. This is a dream. I'm done. Judah: Well, okay, before we move on to talking about next week, I didn't include this in my main story 'cause it didn't fit, but Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: have you ever been to Depot Bay, Oregon? Frankie: Of course I've been to Depot Bay. They have my favorite restaurant there. Judah: the world's smallest navigable harbor. Well, because Frankie: Yep. And if you ever go there, go to Tidal Raves. They have amazing food and super creative bar and just nomnomnomnom Judah: It's it's a super cute little town. I've been on some fishing expeditions out of there. I like to stop there, get oysters when I've got court in Newport. But just south of Depot Bay, there is a bay or area called Bootlegger Bay, and there's like there's signs Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: for it. And I was doing this and I had never thought why is that called Bootlegger Bay? Like, I hope there's a good story. Bootlegger Bay has got a long history of bootlegging activity. And there's a great fun little article called The Moon Shines on the Moonshine. an Oregon bootlegging story by Amy E. Platt that you can find on the Oregon Historical Society website. Frankie: Nice. Judah: And I'll just do part of it. It's it's a fun article especially like Oregon history and this is so close to us. So it's prohibition, it's nineteen thirty two and three Canadians they're part of this bootlegging operation like we talked about from the north so they come they sail a ship called the Sea Island and they take it into Bootlegger Bay. It's called Bootlegger Bay 'cause it's it's a small cove and it's really protected. So it's easy to like get a ship in there and hide. Frankie: Hide. Judah: The Canadians unloaded four hundred cases of whiskey Frankie: my god. Judah: and several dozen bottles of one hundred and ninety proof alcohol. Frankie: That's Firestarter. Judah: That you'd have to mix it with something. So if you don't know about a proof, like something that is a hundred proof is fifty percent alcohol. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: So this is almost one hundred percent pure ethanol. Frankie: Alcohol and all yep. Like I said, fire starter. Judah: It yeah. Frankie: you can use like Bacardi one fifty one, you make flaming shots out of that. and that's only a hundred and fifty one proof. Judah: 151 proof. And this is 100, it's rat poison. Frankie: Yes. Judah: This is paintbrush cleaner. So they've successfully snuck in 400 cases of whiskey and several dozen bottles of 190 proof alcohol, buried it, and then they thought, well, we don't want the boat to be noticed. So instead of like pushing the boat back into the ocean, they set the boat on fire. And Frankie: It seems like a waste of resources. Judah: They get picked up to catch a ride to Portland with some of their associates and they flip the car near Hebo on Highway one one. If you're familiar with Oregon, that's not that far from where they started. Frankie: Nope. Judah: While the men dozed on the bus, then called a stage to Portland. So like some of them have turned around a car, some of them are on a bus, police investigators pulled the abandoned car out of the ditch, checked the license plate, the plates have been switched. So they give a call up so sorry, car crashes, people get on the bus, they just leave the car, car's illegal, they call up to Portland, and the Portland somebody Frankie: So there's nobody left in the car at this point. Judah: left in the car. Call up to Portland and then they intercept the people as they're getting to Portland on the bus and give them a ride back to Toledo, Oregon, to go to jail. Well, they so they had all these people with this suspicious like car license plate switcheroo. But what they don't have is all the goddamn booze. Well, the burning boat in Bootlegger Bay made people suspicious. So while this is all happening, people went to check out the burning boat and said, let's just poke in the sand right here, where they found almost all of the booze, which was then also transported to the Toledo jail and like met the Canadians who had snuck it in as they're coming back from Portland to go to jail in Lincoln County. They've also brought all of this booze because four hundred cases is so much booze. Frankie: It's so much. Judah: and the men wound up pleading guilty and serving several months to years before they were deported. But if they had not set the boat on fire, Frankie: They might have gotten away with it. Judah: well, they might have gotten away with most of it. Like what could you have gotten, like illegally switch license plates? Like what's that gonna get you? But Frankie: Mm-hmm. It's like yeah, unlawful use of a vehicle essentially. Maybe. Judah: I don't know. this is the early thirties, were the laws even the same, like registration. Frankie: Right. Judah: and how much time would it have taken to get and hide all that booze in Bootlegger Bay? And they're like, Well let's just leave this in this small protected cove because let's let a whole goddamn boat on fire. That's not gonna draw anybody's attention to this little cove. Frankie: So there's something that I tell our newer attorneys all the time when they get frustrated with the facts that they're doled for a case, they're not our clients because they make good choices. Judah: Yeah, well, they were not great bootleggers. And that is one of the stories about Bootlegger Bay. and at least I got Frankie: Yeah. Judah: like something was good and written down that was like concrete about bootlegging 'cause I thought Frankie: Yeah. Judah: there's gotta be a story behind that. So I just wound up looking up. Why is it called Bootlegger Bay, Oregon? Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Judah: So but yeah, do go to Depot Bay. Fun little town. Frankie: It's awesome. Judah: Good food. Good good food. Good saltwater taffy. Nice fishing excursions. Frankie: Really good food. Mm-hmm. Judah: Nice little rentals. Cute beach a little bit north of there. Not in town. It's too small. Too rocky. You can see a lot of whales. Frankie: Yeah. Yep. And you go a little bit I don't know which direction from there, but sea lions are a plenty a little bit south of there. Judah: South I think. yeah, and it stinks in those Frankie: It it stinks, but they're funny to watch 'cause they'll just like hop up and then like scoot across each other and then the sea lions that are getting scooted across like Judah: You can see more of them there in winter than in summer. So if you want to see Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: a bunch of sea lions in a cave, wintery time, because they want to be in the cave and protected. Alright, so next week Frankie: Next week. Judah: we're doing queer history part one. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: we are both members of the LGBTQ plus with multiple letters. So I'm gonna be doing the Compton's cafeteria riot. Frankie: Yep, and I will be doing the stonewall riot. Judah: Because these are I think of equal importance, we're not gonna be like, this is the easier one. Yeah, Frankie: This is the fluffy one, this is the yeah no. Judah: let's just we're I think we're just gonna bounce off each other. Stonewall riots more well known. Compton's Cafeter is still very important. So we'll be coming back with what is we're gonna be doing a lot on queer history. Frankie: Yep, and depending on what happens in the news over the next several days, we'll let ya know in what in the fresh hell is this. Judah: Yeah, it's my turn to pick. I gotta pick what the fresh all are we talking about next week. All right. Frankie: Yes you do. Alright, so as always like, subscribe, leave a rating, leave a review, f send a cookie recipe Judah: Send a cookie recipe. Send a cookie recipe. to dumb defenses podcast at gmail dot com. Dear Judah, here is my cookie recipe. I if you send one, I will pick one of those recipes to make and I will tell Frankie how it is. Frankie: Cause I probably won't be able to eat it. follow us on social media, Facebook, Instagram, and Blue Sky. Email us with questions, thoughts, concerns, or a case, Judah: And recipes Frankie: and recipes, case or a historical event you'd like us to cover. I think I've hit everything, and we'll see you next week. Judah: All right, bye bye. Frankie: Bye.