Latest / Coopers' Code / Lawyer, Judge, Mother: From Kyiv to the Courtroom with Nina Shapirshteyn

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Lawyer, Judge, Mother: From Kyiv to the Courtroom with Nina Shapirshteyn · Coopers' Code

0:00
What brought you from the bench back to practice?
0:03
Having a newborn was an eye opening experience and she's my
0:10
second, so it's not like I didn't know what it was like to
0:12
have one. But this was a very different
0:15
situation because I felt like I was being physically pulled away
0:20
from my newborn and so I was on the bench.
0:24
I was, you know, a nursing mother.
0:28
And then by the time I would finally get to my daughter, I I
0:34
hadn't seen her all day and I would just run in the house and
0:39
grab her and hold her clothes and nurse her.
0:43
And then in the morning when I'd leave, I would just cry.
0:46
So ultimately I decided that I am needed more by my daughter's
0:54
than anyone else and so I left you're.
0:59
Making you're making me well up. Howdy, and welcome to the show.
1:04
Cooper's Code focuses on legal issues and notable
1:07
practitioners, distilling wisdom so we can all achieve the best
1:10
results for our clients. I'm Miles Cooper and I'm very
1:13
excited for this conversation with Nina Schapperstein, partner
1:16
Abramson Smith, Wald Smith LLP, and one of California's most
1:20
decorated point of trial lawyers.
1:22
Nina represents individuals and families in serious injury and
1:25
wrongful death cases with a proven trial record.
1:28
Nina was named Trial Lawyer of the Year by San Francisco Trial
1:31
Lawyers Association after securing a $79.8 million verdict
1:35
in 2015, the largest in California that year.
1:39
Santa Clara County later honored her with the same award after
1:42
she won three separate multi $1,000,000 journey verdicts for
1:45
plaintiffs in a single year, an unprecedented achievement.
1:49
Nina is a member of ABODA and a Fellow of the International
1:51
Academy of Trialers, both invitation only organizations
1:54
recognizing elite trialers. She also served as a Superior
1:58
Court Judge appointed by Governor Captain Newsom, giving
2:01
her a rare perspective on both sides of the courtroom.
2:03
So please sit back and enjoy this wide-ranging conversation
2:06
with Nina Schafferstein. Welcome to the show, Nina.
2:09
Thank you. It's an honor to be here.
2:11
Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to come in.
2:14
I've listened to a podcast for quite a while now, probably a
2:18
year ago, and you've had incredible attorneys on the your
2:22
podcast and I'm just honored to be one of them now.
2:25
Well, you, you, you definitely are are in the hall of of people
2:30
who should be here so. Thank you.
2:33
If you've listened, you, you know, I, I, I often times start
2:36
kind of in at the beginning, which is a, a, a bit about your
2:40
background in terms of, you know, where you grew up, what
2:44
shaped you and, and ultimately what got you down the path to
2:48
becoming a lawyer. So it's a, it's a big broad
2:52
question, but I I expect you can run with it.
2:54
Sure. Yeah.
2:55
So I grew up in Kiev, Ukraine, the capital of Ukraine.
3:00
This was back during the Soviet times.
3:02
So Ukraine was one of the republics of the Soviet Union.
3:07
It was a very different reality that I live in.
3:11
Now. Having said that, I had a
3:15
wonderful childhood, but certainly that is what shaped
3:20
who I am today. And it's one of those things is
3:23
that nature versus nurture? I don't know, but I will say
3:27
that what we had a very rigorous education system, Soviet
3:34
education system, it was intended to create specialists
3:41
in hard sciences and math. And so our schooling was very
3:49
disciplined. You learn to think on your feet
3:52
literally in class, you work hold on almost every time and
3:56
you had to stand up in front of your classmates and answer
3:59
questions. And it every time it was like an
4:02
oral exam. You are literally graded on your
4:04
answer. So you better know what you're
4:07
saying and be prepared. So I think that was that really
4:13
carried me a long way once I moved here as well.
4:20
How old were you when you came here?
4:21
So I started my freshman year of high school here, so as a
4:26
teenager, not an ideal time to move.
4:31
And I didn't really speak English, but I had that
4:37
foundation of, you know, we started physics and chemistry
4:40
and biology there in fifth grade.
4:43
And my math skills were certainly above my peers here.
4:50
I didn't understand the problems because I didn't understand the
4:53
language. And my mom would translate for
4:57
me, which is not saying much because she she was in her 40s
5:02
and, and, and didn't know it, But you know, it certainly made
5:07
the transition a lot easier. Do you find that that background
5:12
in the hard sciences is something that has played a part
5:15
in in your legal career? Oh 100%.
5:20
It's not really my knowledge of math or physics, but it's the
5:27
format in which that was taught and the discipline that was
5:35
fostered through that educational system that really
5:39
shaped how I approach my cases, how I do any type of work.
5:45
Really. It's about preparation.
5:49
And part of it is that immigrant scarcity mentality that is not
5:58
unique to the Soviet Union by any stretch of imagination.
6:02
But it's probably true for most people who immigrate to another
6:07
country, right? Because you find how to be
6:12
resourceful and work under pressure and do the most with
6:17
the little you have. And in fact, I think about that
6:20
a lot. And how do I now create that in
6:25
my children? So right, on one hand, I want
6:28
them to have everything. On the other hand, I want them
6:30
to know what it's like to not necessarily struggle, but but to
6:35
fight a little bit. You know, we didn't get
6:39
participation trophies in school.
6:42
You had to be the best at everything.
6:44
And that's, that was that was the reality I was raised in.
6:48
And you raised an interesting point in terms of what some
6:52
people refer to as a scarcity mindset versus an abundance
6:55
mindset. And do you still approach the
7:02
practice in life with a scarcity mindset?
7:05
Yes. Can you articulate that?
7:09
I don't expect things to be easy.
7:13
I expect them to be hard. I expect to work hard to get
7:19
somewhere. Even though I've been practicing
7:22
now for close to 20 years. I don't ever think that this
7:29
case is going to be easy or I've done this before.
7:32
I start with a blank canvas and look for problems and issue spot
7:40
and prepare for everything to be challenging.
7:45
You've reached a point in terms of your your level of success
7:48
where you could have associates, paralegals, other people working
7:54
with you or for you on cases. How do you pursue your cases?
7:59
I like to do my own discovery. I like to sit down with a
8:04
client. This is how I learn about the
8:06
case. I do a very long intake first of
8:09
all, but when it comes to answering interrogatories, I'll
8:13
have the staff create the shelves.
8:15
But I want to sit down with a client and this is my
8:17
opportunity to learn about them. I don't want to 1st learn about
8:23
my client when I am about to go to trial.
8:27
I do think it's important to delegate, but not discovery.
8:34
That's not something I'm I'm willing to do.
8:36
In fact, I learned that from Jack Stein with whom I've worked
8:42
a lot over the years. He's associated me on a lot of
8:46
cases and I have seen his level of success at the Boccardo Law
8:52
firm, obviously. And I mean, the guy would always
8:55
just do his own interrogatories, and I found that impressive
9:03
after practicing for what must have been 60 years for him.
9:10
You mentioned him bringing you into cases.
9:12
Do you also Co counsel on cases given your trial experience and
9:16
and that there aren't as many lawyers out there with the level
9:20
of drug experience that you have, I imagine people approach
9:23
you and say could you come into a case?
9:25
Yeah, I have to say that a lot of calls I get are about product
9:32
cases and I love product cases. Who doesn't, right?
9:38
They're obviously very expensive to litigate, but they're really
9:41
fun. And then for and then some
9:45
insurance bad faith cases that I, I actually recently was
9:48
approached about and then I'll essentially parachute in.
9:53
Hopefully I can come in earlier rather than later.
9:56
That's my preference and that way I can really shape the the
10:00
case. I do take all my own depositions
10:05
and the way I approach depositions, especially in
10:11
product cases, but really every case now is that this is a
10:16
deposition that I'm going to be playing in trial.
10:19
So I like to have all my exhibits ready, the
10:23
demonstrative exhibits as I would show to the jury in court.
10:28
I do that with treating physicians.
10:32
I have them teach to the jury and I will say that.
10:35
Would you please explain to the jury and, you know, have all the
10:42
illustrations, all the medical illustrations ready.
10:45
I really like to collaborate with my staff, with my partners
10:50
and brainstorm cases together, but I also like to control my
10:59
discovery and know everything about the case.
11:04
That makes sense. Do you primarily work in an
11:08
office? Do you work from the house?
11:10
Do you do a combination? I'm trying to get another office
11:16
for us because I live in Menlo Park.
11:19
My partners are in San Mateo, Hillsboro area and our office is
11:23
in San Francisco. So we usually come here once a
11:28
week. We all drive in together with
11:30
I'll talk about the cases while we do that go to out to lunch.
11:35
But I'd like to go in maybe three times a week.
11:40
Right now I'm working from home a lot from my Home Office, which
11:46
I like as well. But it's nice to be.
11:49
I like to be around people. I'd like to go back in time and
11:53
and approach how you find yourself interested in the law.
11:58
Where did that passion first first show up?
12:00
Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't readily apparent to
12:05
me. I didn't grow up thinking I
12:07
wanted to be a lawyer. I mean, I probably grew up
12:10
thinking I wanted to be the general secretary of the Soviet
12:13
Union at the time, you know, my the background did play an
12:20
important role in it. My mom's grandfather was a
12:24
political prisoner in a gulag imprisoned by Stalin, and my
12:31
grandmother, who was his daughter, actually wrote a
12:35
letter to Stalin asking to release him, which probably is a
12:44
really brave thing to do because she certainly was risking her
12:49
freedom, if not her life in doing that.
12:54
He was ultimately released and, and by the time he was released,
12:58
he had been tortured and, and died shortly thereafter.
13:03
And then on my dad's side, while my dad himself, he, he met my
13:07
mom at the Moscow State University.
13:10
He was from Ukraine, my mom was from Russia and he travelled to
13:15
Moscow to study there. And when they met, that was
13:20
obviously also during communism. A lot of literature was
13:25
forbidden. My father printed forbidden
13:29
books. He photographed every page and,
13:34
you know, distributed to his friends, his classmates at the
13:38
university. So there was always a sense of
13:43
what is right and big belief in democracy.
13:50
Even though I was growing up in this very strict communist
13:55
society, I had that family background that allowed me, to
14:04
my mind to wonder there was a lot of corruption going on once
14:10
the Soviet Union broke down and I was there for all that and it
14:13
was kind of a free for all. And so it was Ukraine was a very
14:19
young democracy. There was a lot of lawlessness.
14:24
Judges could be bribed and were bribed and laws were created to
14:30
target specific individuals or businesses and applied ex post
14:35
facto. So it was a very difficult
14:38
environment because you never knew what was legal when the law
14:43
could be changed at any moment. And so the law wasn't used for
14:48
justice, it was used as an opportunity for corruption.
14:54
So coming here, I was really struck by what the law allowed
15:01
you to do in this country and that it allowed fairness and
15:05
justice, and that I found that very attractive.
15:09
Having said that, I didn't think about becoming a lawyer for a
15:14
long time. I went to college at UC San
15:17
Diego and consistent with my roots, I was going to major in
15:22
math and, and about halfway through my education, I
15:27
realized, well, OK, what am I going to do with math?
15:30
I switched to what was called a management science major, which
15:34
is basically a mix of math and economics.
15:37
And generally once you major in that, you go into finance and
15:42
consulting. I, I did end up finishing that
15:47
major and getting a job out of college.
15:50
And I just remember my boss at the time sent me home with a
15:54
bunch of books they wanted me to read.
15:56
And I realized I was going to be in this office solving problems,
16:02
which was not what I wanted to do.
16:05
I loved math. I loved solving problems, but I
16:09
also loved being around people and sharing that with people.
16:13
And then I realized that what I loved about math wasn't
16:17
necessarily the numbers, but it was that excitement of solving
16:20
the problem. And somehow between that and my
16:28
admiration for the American system of justice, at least at
16:32
that time, led me to law school. So I took a year off.
16:37
I I never showed up to that job. I took a year off and I
16:42
travelled around Europe, took the LSAT and and the rest is
16:48
history. You made a little bit of an
16:51
aside in terms of the justice system, the American justice
16:56
system, right? And can we, can we follow that
17:00
for a little? Bit sure, yeah, it's very
17:04
difficult to watch what's happening now in this country.
17:08
I never, I, I really, really, I, I bought all in.
17:13
I was all in on this democracy we have here, the rule of law.
17:19
You know, having seen the other side, I had utmost respect and
17:26
and belief in this system and I never thought, I never imagined,
17:32
I never realized how fragile it was.
17:37
The attack on the rule of law, the partisanship that is
17:49
apparent in the Supreme Court is disappointing, is a huge
18:00
understatement. Earlier when you were talking
18:03
about the experience in in the Soviet collapse and laws being
18:07
made specifically to target folks, there's a line for my
18:12
friends, anything for my enemies, the law and it, it made
18:15
me think a little bit about some of the things that we're seeing
18:18
right now in this country. Right.
18:20
It's probably a thought about this quite a bit, how how what's
18:25
happening now is perceived by Americans who grew up here
18:31
versus how I see it. And I almost wonder if it's more
18:37
painful for me to watch because, you know, in a way, when you
18:43
grow up here, you take it for granted because you don't know
18:46
anything else. But I, I was just starstruck by
18:53
this society. I was the the system of checks
19:00
and balances and you know, the fight against corruption and
19:06
what this country had achieved was everything to me.
19:13
And to see it collapsing like this is devastating.
19:22
And and when you grow up here, you might not understand how
19:28
quickly this can crumble once it starts.
19:33
And when people are being hauled away by agents in masks without
19:43
any identification, without any reason, without any
19:47
accountability. I've seen that movie before and
19:52
it is a dangerously slippery slope.
19:58
Is there anything from your background or experience, having
20:01
seen it in another, through another lens, through another
20:07
country that you feel is helpful or hopeful for how we can
20:12
approach our present situation? It's always the people that make
20:17
the difference, right? Although some can say that the
20:22
Soviet Union ultimately collapsed because there was a
20:25
miscommunication, right? There's that theory.
20:29
But look at Hungary now, right? When people understand what is
20:34
at stake and they finally get out and vote and get together,
20:39
change can happen. And and that's what we all need
20:43
to do. So pivoting back into law
20:48
school, as you got to law school, did you find that there
20:52
were any particular areas of law that drew you in?
20:58
Certainly, yes. I loved my First Amendment
21:02
class. I enjoyed torts, evidence, Civil
21:08
Procedure. I remember my Civil Procedure
21:14
class and people saying that it was really difficult.
21:18
And to me, everything just made sense.
21:22
Like there, there was a process for everything.
21:24
It's I think I craved that structure, right?
21:30
And then evidence makes sense. It's what's fair.
21:34
So I really enjoyed law school. I liked my trial advocacy class.
21:42
I was in law review. I did enjoy writing, but I will
21:46
say that Law Review may not have been the most fun I've had in
21:51
law school. But yeah, you know, also it was,
21:59
I was 21, I was in New York and it was a great time.
22:06
Yeah, I I have a note and it might be incorrect, but the tax
22:11
was also something that you enjoyed, Seth.
22:13
Oh gosh, you know, I haven't thought about that in so long,
22:17
but yes, yes, I did enjoy tax very much and it and and that is
22:24
AI realize how crazy that sounds because this is tax season now
22:29
and it's a dreadful, but back then it it also made sense.
22:34
I think it was just I, everything that is logical and
22:40
that I can take and apply is enjoyable to me.
22:43
And so I got a job actually doing tax law out of law school.
22:51
And again, you know, I, I, I had to correct.
22:58
And you know that it's probably, it's probably terrible that I, I
23:02
agreed to do this job out of law school and then and then went
23:06
back on on it. But at least I did that before
23:10
actually committing a lot of years and effort to it.
23:14
But I had to be true to myself and kind of say to myself, yes,
23:19
I like this. But what I really like is I like
23:24
being again working with people. I don't want to be a
23:27
transactional attorney. I and that's what ultimately led
23:31
me to litigation. And I think my Rd. was always,
23:36
oh, I like this. So I'm going to go this way.
23:38
Need to correct because you know, it's not everything I
23:41
want. And finally, I found everything
23:44
that I wanted in litigation. I got to work with people.
23:48
I got to solve problems. I got to apply what I learned
23:53
and to continue learning all the time.
23:56
That's what we do, right? Especially with experts, I used
24:00
to say I don't see myself being anything but a lawyer.
24:04
And then after practicing for a while and talking to all these
24:08
experts, to accident reconstructionists and
24:12
biomechanical engineers and biomedical engineers and
24:16
doctors, you realize as you get deep into something, you really
24:22
begin to enjoy it. And that's goes back to solving
24:26
problems. And so I would enjoy anatomy, I
24:31
would enjoy learning about a certain surgery or, you know,
24:37
physics. And I'd say, oh, you know, I
24:40
could see myself being a doctor. I could see myself doing this.
24:44
But as a lawyer in litigation, you get all that, you can do all
24:48
that. And that, that's that's what
24:50
makes our job so fun part. Of what I sometimes do with this
24:54
is distill things for our listeners.
24:57
It sounds to me like you're judging yourself for perhaps
25:03
being interested in a job and then determining that it's not a
25:05
right fit. Whereas the the learning that I
25:08
would imagine some of our listeners should hear is you are
25:12
quick to figure out what is not right for you and willing to
25:16
take the bold steps to follow through on on not not doing
25:20
something that is not right. Sure.
25:23
And that's I was joking about it.
25:26
I mean, I'm very happy with my decisions.
25:29
And I was also 2124 at the time, which you're, you're still kind
25:37
of a child. So, so I will give myself grace
25:42
and I will give myself credit for figuring out that that's not
25:45
what I want to do. And I mean, how are you supposed
25:48
to know what, what, what you want to do in college, right
25:51
until you're actually really faced with that job and, and,
25:56
and you can really feel and imagine what every day is going
26:01
to be like. That's when you can tell.
26:03
So ultimately, absolutely IA 100% believe that if whatever
26:10
job someone is considering is not what you want to do, you
26:14
should never do it because you're you're not going to enjoy
26:16
it and you're not going to be good at it.
26:18
You can't. I think that there are a lot of
26:23
young people who may not get that and who fall fall into the
26:27
pattern of just grinding before they realize that it is not
26:31
right fit. Right.
26:33
I've seen a lot of lawyers who became lawyers because
26:38
especially, well, trial lawyers, because it looked glamorous on
26:42
TV and it looked really fun. And it's just not their
26:45
personality and it's not what they should have ever been
26:48
doing. And it took them years to
26:51
finally say I quit. Yeah, yeah.
26:55
Going to your, I guess, first job that you did take at a law
27:01
firm, did that end ultimately end up being litigation?
27:05
Yes, yes. So my first job with Terry
27:10
O'Reilly who has since passed away, but it was doing exactly
27:17
what I do know. It was in litigation of
27:20
plaintiff's personal injury side.
27:23
And a legend of of the bar. That firm is a firm that many
27:26
lawyers like Ricardo or others there are.
27:29
There are firm names that stand out, and his is one of them.
27:32
Yes. And I, I was very lucky.
27:34
I actually went back to San Diego after law school, and I
27:38
was in the Bay Area briefly visiting my parents and my
27:43
father, who insisted that I look for jobs here.
27:48
I did not want to live here. I wanted to live in San Diego
27:51
still. I I did, I I saw that posting
27:56
and it was actually for I think they were hoping to get an
28:00
associate with a few years of experience and I was, I hadn't
28:03
passed the bar yet and I applied.
28:06
I got an e-mail right away and interviewed the next day.
28:11
I was actually had to go buy a suit and, and and drove to the
28:17
interview from the store in my new suit.
28:22
And then I got I got the job and ended up moving here and working
28:26
there for a very long time until ultimately the firm dissolved.
28:33
But after that I ended up obviously working with other
28:38
lawyers and doing the exact same thing because I loved it.
28:43
I think one of the things that I personally find interesting,
28:47
they're they're people who follow like sports and sports
28:50
teams and what have you. I've always been interested in
28:53
lawyers. So like the history of Picardo
28:55
or the history of, of a firm like O'Reilly.
28:59
I think you're the first person short of like Mike Danko and and
29:02
Christine Meredith who I've spoken to, who was inside.
29:07
What was it like being an associate there?
29:13
Well, it was at the time I, I didn't know any different,
29:19
right, Because I had just started, I guess my only job was
29:22
at a big law firm in New York as a summer associate.
29:28
And so to me it was, I thought that's how it was supposed to
29:33
be. It was intense.
29:37
It was intense. Terry O'Reilly was a big
29:41
personality with big ideas and I my first case I tried with him,
29:49
I obviously passed the bar. Then it was probably six months
29:53
after I passed the bar and the guy never lost a beat.
30:00
I mean, he just was unshakable. He had a strong belief that he
30:12
was always right, and he would make other people believe that
30:18
too, even if you weren't. Interesting.
30:23
Are there things about that approach that you felt were
30:26
helpful in terms of where you are or things that were
30:29
potentially harmful from that approach?
30:33
I know I remember 1 moment in trial when, you know, I don't
30:41
remember if it was a misrepresentation that at least
30:45
he and I viewed that was going on or what it was.
30:48
But I was getting a little worked up at at council's table
30:54
before arguing and he said Nina, poise, always poise, which he
31:03
didn't always follow by the way, but that stayed with me.
31:09
And of course I learned from all the lawyers I've ever worked
31:15
with, most of whom I think all of them were older men.
31:25
So I say that, but obviously as a woman, my approach is very
31:31
different, has to be very different.
31:36
Terry would get angry and he was a very big guy with a booming
31:44
voice and, and it was very intimidating for opposing
31:48
counsel, certainly, and maybe judges.
31:54
And that's not something I could ever do.
31:58
Not not necessarily they want to do, but you know, with women, we
32:04
have to be very careful because what works for men doesn't work
32:09
for women in our profession and politics across the board.
32:14
It's not as palatable to the jury, to judges.
32:19
So yes, I watched, I learned and I tweaked things and made it my
32:25
own. But I will say that one thing
32:30
that stayed with me was regardless of his style, he was
32:37
authentic. And that's what you have to be
32:41
in this profession, especially as plaintiff's counsel who is
32:46
coming to the jury asking for a bunch of money.
32:50
And you have to be honest with the jury.
32:53
You have to be honest with the judges, and you have to be
32:57
honest with yourself and true to yourself.
33:02
If the jury is questioning your motives or the truth in what
33:12
you're claiming, you've lost the case in my opinion.
33:17
I want to explore what you just said a a a bit further.
33:21
Good. Because I think it's important
33:23
if you're initial mentors and and guides were mostly older
33:31
white men, how did you find your way in terms of being genuine
33:38
and how you were going to present and, and recognize that
33:43
there are still gender biases that create problems for female
33:52
lawyers versus male lawyers? Trial and error, you make
33:58
mistakes, you learn, you grow, you get older, right is a big
34:02
part of it. And it's not just watching
34:05
lawyers, it's watching politicians, understanding what
34:11
is acceptable to you, going to seminars, constantly learning.
34:19
You know, I used to be so hyper aware as a young lawyer of how I
34:27
present it. And it would be what color
34:30
should my hair be for trial? What is acceptable for the jury?
34:34
Should I be wearing a wedding ring so that people take me more
34:38
seriously, so that I appear more mature?
34:41
You know, what do I wear? And it is so nice to get to a
34:47
point in your career where you realize it doesn't matter.
34:52
Obviously you should dress professionally and and have
34:56
court appropriate attire, but it's more about being yourself
35:01
and you can't try to create this picture of what you think a
35:07
lawyer should be this ideal person who is acceptable to
35:12
everyone. In fact, I have this painting at
35:17
my house that I got with my daughter and it says, why do you
35:25
care if everyone likes you? You don't even like everybody.
35:33
What people don't like, though, more than your hair color or
35:38
what you wear or how young or old you are, is if you're
35:43
inauthentic. So what I would say to young
35:50
lawyers, especially female attorneys, is just be yourself.
35:55
Was experience and maturity the things that have made it so that
36:01
you've realized that it doesn't matter, or whether if you've
36:05
been a young lawyer, you could have put aside things like what
36:10
you're wearing or wedding rings or other pieces?
36:13
It was probably experience. It's hard to describe it now to
36:23
young lawyers because times have certainly changed quite a bit.
36:28
But when I was starting it out out and I was a lot more lucky
36:32
than my female predecessors. But when I was starting out, it
36:39
was a predominantly male profession, especially in
36:43
litigation. And I certainly was called
36:47
everything else but a lawyer, right?
36:49
I was a secretary. I was a court reporter.
36:53
I was even called a driver. Someone thought it was Terry
36:58
O'reilly's driver. And.
37:02
He's got nice cars, You, you. I'm also a good driver.
37:05
I'm an excellent driver and I used to get, they used to offend
37:10
me and I'd get frustrated when I was really young, right.
37:14
Because you want to prove yourself and, and, and you want
37:18
to be recognized for your skills, I guess is the reason I
37:24
was getting offended. It's hard to remember now, but
37:27
you know, that still happens to me now.
37:31
It happened to me as a judge, right?
37:33
I was asked if I were a court reporter just more recently.
37:38
In your own department. Well, not by by my staff, no.
37:42
No, but like you were in your department, somebody.
37:44
Right. I wasn't wearing a robe that
37:47
that would be a whole different level.
37:49
I bet that person was was kicking themselves.
37:54
But now, you know, I went back to, to private practice and, and
38:00
it still happens. And, and when people find out
38:03
that I'm a lawyer, they underestimate me.
38:05
And I welcome that. Now I don't, I don't get
38:10
offended. I'm at a point where I know who
38:12
I am. I know they'll see who I am, but
38:15
also I don't really care if they see who I am.
38:17
I want them to underestimate me because then they're not
38:20
prepared. And that's not just opposing
38:22
counsel, that's experts, right? You learn that people who
38:29
underestimate you, who will call you names, they're not your
38:35
people. And you know, they're a small
38:38
percentage of people who won't make a difference in your life
38:43
and and they're not probably very happy with themselves and
38:48
doing this work. So it just now it rolls off my
38:55
shoulder and I wish I had known that earlier and I would have
39:01
saved myself some disappointments.
39:07
That makes a lot of sense. In a similar vein, and I, I
39:12
bring this up because I will admit that when I had young kids
39:18
as a trial lawyer, it felt like I had one arm literally tied
39:22
behind my back in terms of being the advocate that I had been
39:26
before I had children. The idea there being I always
39:29
used to be able to outwork people, but when you've got
39:32
young ones around that just, you have to come up with a different
39:37
skill set and it or, or toolbox and it, it took me a long time
39:41
to figure out my way around that.
39:44
So that might lead into a question for you, which is I
39:48
think you said yours are two and six.
39:51
How have you managed the rigors of trying cases while still
39:55
being an effective parent? It was a lot easier when I was
39:59
nine months pregnant and I was trying cases.
40:01
They're still inside you. And that's also, it's not just
40:06
having kids. I think it's also just getting
40:09
older with more experience, right?
40:11
You learn like you when I was a young lawyer.
40:16
My attitude was no one is going to outwork me.
40:20
I will work nights. I will.
40:21
I don't care if there is a big law firm on the other side and
40:24
they have 10 lawyers dedicated on to this case and I'm the only
40:28
associate in my firm and one partner.
40:30
I was going to outwork everyone and I was going to know
40:33
everything, every document. I've also learned that you can
40:39
work smarter, not harder, and accomplish the same.
40:45
I think that that that comes with experience, but I don't
40:51
ever want to feel that mom guilt.
40:56
I make time for my kids and then I make time for work.
41:01
And the beautiful part about where I am in my career is
41:07
making my own schedule. So I can work after my kids go
41:11
to sleep. I can work when they're at
41:13
school, but I'm going to be there to walk my daughter to
41:18
school. I do that every day with my
41:20
little one. I'll put her in a stroller and
41:22
walk her to school and I'm going to pick her up from school and
41:25
we'll spend time together. And that way I am able to then
41:31
focus on my work because I feel like my responsibility as a mom
41:36
has been fulfilled, that my kids are happy with the time they
41:40
spend with me. So yes, of course we struggle
41:44
and there is that balance. I, when I went on the bench, I,
41:52
I was, I was pregnant and my youngest one was born when I was
41:59
a judge. And that was very difficult in
42:03
terms of 0 flexibility because you have to be in the courtroom.
42:10
Not much is going on one without you.
42:14
So when it's in, you know, 9:00 to 5:00, you got to be there and
42:17
you have a newborn. So that that is really hard to
42:25
do because life is short and my kids need me more than any
42:35
profession is how I see it. Since you're mentioning kids and
42:39
some of the structure of being a judge, I think now is the time
42:43
to ask what brought you from the bench back to practice.
42:48
You know, I never thought about being a judge, first of all, and
42:55
I really enjoyed what I was doing.
42:57
I love my practice. I mean, when I say I loved, it
43:03
truly brought me joy. I know that one of the reasons
43:08
or one of the things that judges and joy about leaving private
43:13
practice is not having clients, not waking up in the middle of
43:17
the night and thinking about this case and have I done this
43:20
and that. That's a part I love and love
43:24
about a case. I love obsessing about my cases
43:28
and waking up in the middle of the night thinking of a new idea
43:33
or how to present something. So the reason I decided to be a
43:38
judge, which I think is important in answering your
43:41
question to begin with, is because So, you know, there was
43:46
this thing called COVID and the courts were many courts were
43:50
practically closed and cases weren't moving, especially civil
43:56
cases, as we all recall, which is seems like forever ago and it
44:01
kind of hard to imagine that now, but it was our reality back
44:05
then. Criminal cases had priority and
44:09
there was a call to arms, so to speak.
44:14
And I decided, you know, I, I can help, I'll go do it.
44:19
And I felt very grateful to this country.
44:27
I wanted to contribute, I wanted to help.
44:29
And it was about public service for me.
44:32
And certainly I was obviously giving up the financial aspect
44:39
of, of being a lawyer to to do that.
44:42
But I felt fortunate in my successes thus far and I felt
44:49
that I could, I was in a position to give back and that's
44:54
why I did it. So then your question though,
44:57
getting back to your question, which was leaving the bench was
45:01
a difficult decision. Having a newborn was an eye
45:08
opening experience and she's my second so it's not like I didn't
45:12
know what it was like to have one.
45:14
But my first one was born during COVID and so I spent a lot of
45:20
time with her ahead and au pair at the time and I was working
45:25
from home so I could be with her as much as I wanted.
45:31
She would wonder in my office and say hello and we would spend
45:34
some time together. And I felt like I was with her.
45:36
Every day with this was a very different situation because I
45:43
felt like I was being physically pulled away from my newborn.
45:49
And so I was on the bench. I was, you know, a nursing
45:54
mother and had to take breaks all the time.
45:59
And then by the time I would finally get to my daughter, I, I
46:05
hadn't seen her all day and I would just run in the house and
46:10
grab her and hold her clothes and nurse her.
46:14
And then in the morning when I'd leave, I would just cry.
46:17
So ultimately I decided like, like I said, that I, I am needed
46:27
more by my daughters than anyone else.
46:31
And so I left. You're making me well up.
46:38
And it's, it's hard to think back to that period because it,
46:44
it, it was, you know, as a mom, as a parent, as you know,
46:48
there's just this biological connection and if physical
46:52
physiological connection that you feel to your children and,
46:57
and you, I, I just felt like I was being ripped away from my
47:01
child and I felt an immense amount of guilt for nobody made
47:07
me do that. I did that myself.
47:10
And, and that was really hard. By the time I I left the bench,
47:14
she was two years old, 2 1/2 and certainly was much easier than a
47:21
newborn. But my older daughter was was
47:25
getting more aware, was also asking, you know, we live in an
47:32
area where a lot of mothers do not work.
47:35
And she was asking questions like, why is that you don't
47:40
volunteer in a school and all these parents are always there
47:43
and they're. And I again, I just felt that
47:50
the sacrifice I was making wasn't worth, well, I guess that
48:02
ultimately I wasn't just sacrificing my time or the
48:07
financial aspects of being a lawyer, but I was sacrificing my
48:11
time with my children and that I refused to do.
48:16
One of the observations I've had post COVID is there seems to
48:22
have been a very significant turnover on the bench in all the
48:27
counties that I've I've been practicing in, A lot of the
48:30
longtime judges has seemed to have.
48:33
And I don't know if it's everyone kind of aged out at the
48:35
same time or they're COVID and the Zoom judging has just been
48:41
so devastating. But there's been a big turnover
48:44
in the bench. And it's, it's a broad
48:47
open-ended question about whether when you were on that
48:50
side of things, whether that was something that was talked about
48:52
or commented on. You know, I remember I was
48:57
trying a case in Alameda County and it was a very motion, lawn
49:05
motion, intensive case. And our judge told us, hey, you
49:10
need a discovery referee. You're not my only case and
49:13
you're here in front of me all the time.
49:16
I have 500 other cases and I I was like, wow, that is a lot of
49:20
cases. And in San Mateo County, judges
49:24
have 2000 cases. 2000, right? Wow.
49:28
So that was, you know, in 2012, I'm talking about 500 cases.
49:32
So I think one, one of the things that changed after COVID
49:37
is just the sheer volume of cases we need.
49:42
We need more judges. It is.
49:45
And the calendar for civil judges is backed up, right.
49:49
As you know, many times you can't get a hearing until four
49:54
months out, if that. That's because of how many cases
49:59
there are. A lot of judges certainly don't
50:03
like Zoom. I will say that I was obviously
50:08
used to Zoom as a lawyer by the time I became a judge because
50:12
everything was on Zoom, our depositions and hearings.
50:16
But as a judge, I didn't like it.
50:21
I didn't like it. It's you're in this courtroom
50:26
without any windows all day and you want to see some human
50:31
beings at least. So it's really nice when people
50:36
show up, you know, and then and then what I also remember seeing
50:43
a lot of then these lawyers on Zoom would not even have the
50:49
courtesy to dress up. And you're thinking really, this
50:54
is for your convenience. You don't have to drive
50:57
anywhere. You don't have to fly anywhere.
50:59
That would normally take hours. You're in the comfort of your
51:03
home. I don't even care if you're not
51:05
wearing pants. I don't see it.
51:07
Just have the decency to put on a tie and court appropriate
51:11
attire. And I would always tell that to
51:14
lawyers. And there's a feeling amongst
51:17
judges that generally the respect for the courtroom has
51:25
fallen drastically. And it's hard to say if it's
51:31
because of Zoom or what, but I think Zoom certainly contributed
51:40
to that, as well as the decline of civility, because when you
51:47
hide behind a camera, behind your computer, you tend to be a
51:55
little bit more, maybe people feel a little more protected and
52:02
isolated and act differently. From a practitioner's
52:08
perspective, the emptiness of the courthouse as opposed to
52:13
running. I used to the good old days,
52:17
right? The the feeling of walking down
52:18
the hall and running into people that you knew and exchanging
52:22
ideas and popping into a courtroom and seeing a trial
52:26
seems to have just completely disappeared.
52:29
Yeah. And that's that's very sad.
52:31
I mean, I think that's where a lot of experience also would
52:39
come from. And all of a sudden you you see
52:42
a different lawyer question a witness and you get some tips
52:47
and you talk about the case and share ideas.
52:52
Yeah. That doesn't, it's not a, it's
52:55
not a thing anymore. And then on Zoom also, it's not
53:01
an environment that is conducive to chatting, right?
53:06
You're trying to make sure you're not interrupting anyone
53:10
and you're not, which is different when the lawyers are
53:14
in the courtroom. You can joke around and you can,
53:17
you know, and it's a warmer environment.
53:23
And I said to myself, after being a judge, I said I will
53:29
always show up in person. Have you followed through with
53:34
that? I haven't had to yet because the
53:38
only hearings I had were in federal court and Zoom was
53:42
required. Interesting.
53:45
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53:48
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53:51
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