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#438 Maggie Freleng with Catina Curley · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: On the evening of March thirtieth, two thousand and five,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: thirty two year old Katina Curley went to her house
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: in East New Orleans. She and her husband Rinaldo had
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: recently separated, and she was staying with her mother, but
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: she stopped in every night to help feed her four kids,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: make sure their homework was done, and get them ready
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  Speaker 1: for bed. Rinaldo had some visitors in the house, which
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: irritated Katina, and she and Rinaldo got into a heated argument.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: This wasn't unusual. Their relationship had been volatile from the start.
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  Speaker 2: To be honest with you, didn't take long to escalate.
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  Speaker 2: We started with the arguments, and then from the arguments
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: it turned into a fight.
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  Speaker 1: Rinaldo and Katina went up to the bedroom, where their
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  Speaker 1: children could hear them arguing loudly. Moments later, Rinaldo rushed downstairs,
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  Speaker 1: followed by Katina, and suddenly a gunshot rang out.
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  Speaker 3: And I used to always tell them we don't need
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: no gun in a home.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: I never like gons, you know, gones are dangerous, and
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  Speaker 2: he just was adamant to have it there.
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  Speaker 1: When police arrived, they found Rinaldo dead from a single gunshot.
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  Speaker 1: Wound to the heart. Katina was arrested that night and
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  Speaker 1: charged with second degree murder.
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  Speaker 2: I'm Katina Curly and I was wrongfully convicted for eleven
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: and a half years.
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  Speaker 1: From Love of for Good. This is wrongful conviction with
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  Speaker 1: Maggie Freeling today Katina Curly. Katina Curley was born in
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  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two.
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  Speaker 2: I was born here in Louisiana, New Orleans. My mom
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  Speaker 2: is Sheila and my dad is Ernest. But my grandparents
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  Speaker 2: raised me since birth. How come because I guess at
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: the time they figured that my parents were too young
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  Speaker 2: to raise me.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: How old were your parents when they had you?
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  Speaker 3: Fifteen?
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  Speaker 1: Oh wow, so they were kids.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, they was young. They were real young.
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  Speaker 1: What was that like to grow up with your grandparents
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  Speaker 1: as an only child?
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  Speaker 2: It was fun. I had everything. I was one of
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  Speaker 2: the small ones, you know. I had everything that I
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  Speaker 2: wanted as a child and growing up, you know, I
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: had all the love and support that any child can
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  Speaker 2: ever ex for. You know, we used to go to
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  Speaker 2: Mardi Gras. She used to take me to a lot
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  Speaker 2: of parades. I used to go to a lot of
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  Speaker 2: parties with my cousins, sleepovers and.
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  Speaker 3: Things like that.
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  Speaker 2: My one favorite with me and my grandmother used to
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  Speaker 2: always like to eat ice cream when it's cold. She says,
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: better to eat ice cream when it's cold. So I
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  Speaker 2: used to sit on the sofa freezing or debt trying
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  Speaker 2: to hang out with her, you know, just eating ice
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  Speaker 2: cream on the sofa, looking at movies.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: When Katina was sixteen, she had her first child, Devilent,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: with a high school boyfriend. A couple of years later,
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  Speaker 1: her daughter, Britney was born, and then when Katina was nineteen,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: she met Rinaldo Curly he was seventeen.
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  Speaker 3: I met him through a friend.
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  Speaker 2: One of my good friends was dating Ronaldo uncle and
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  Speaker 2: I was over there one day and he came there
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  Speaker 2: with his uncle, and that's how I met him.
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  Speaker 1: What struck you about him? Why did you like him?
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  Speaker 2: I liked him because he was always well groomed and
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: he used to dress nice, smell real good.
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  Speaker 1: What did he dress like? I mean this was early,
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  Speaker 1: that was ninety two, okay, so what I guess for
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  Speaker 1: young girl listeners, like.
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  Speaker 2: I was like a hip hop you know, like jeans,
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  Speaker 2: T shirt, clean, tennis and you know, he knew how
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  Speaker 2: to cut hair. So he was always well groomed and
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: at the time, you know he was to me, he
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: was nice, polite, you know, that's how they come off
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  Speaker 2: all the time when you first meet him.
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  Speaker 1: But not long into their relationship, Katina began to see
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  Speaker 1: another side of Rinaldo.
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  Speaker 2: We started getting into it, like probably not even a
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: month in us dating.
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  Speaker 1: What kinds of things would you fight about?
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  Speaker 2: We would fight about? He was like when we first
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  Speaker 2: got together, he was the type that came off is
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  Speaker 2: you know, if you're for him, you for him. It
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  Speaker 2: was like always a jealous type. If I want to
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  Speaker 2: go home, he didn't want me to go home. To
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  Speaker 2: be honest with you, didn't take long to escalate. We
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: started with the arguments and then from the arguments it
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: turned into a fight, like a physical Yeah, it really
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  Speaker 2: it got physical fast.
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  Speaker 1: And what did that look like? Did he physically hit
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  Speaker 1: you or was it like throwing things?
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  Speaker 2: Like, no, it is physically hit me, Like physically we
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  Speaker 2: used to fight.
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  Speaker 1: What did you think when that happened?
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  Speaker 2: At the time, I didn't I didn't know nothing about
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  Speaker 2: domestic violence or you know, I didn't think, oh, this
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  Speaker 2: was abuse. I'm thinking just fighting. It's my boyfriend, were fighting.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I saw fights before as growing up as
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  Speaker 2: a child. So I'm thinking, this is what it is
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  Speaker 2: in a relationship.
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  Speaker 1: That's kind of what you were seeing around you. It
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  Speaker 1: just seemed kind of just normal.
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  Speaker 3: It's a norm. Man like the norm.
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  Speaker 1: In June of nineteen ninety five, Katina and Ronaldo got married.
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  Speaker 1: Ronaldo had a son, also named Ronaldo, from a previous girlfriend,
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  Speaker 1: and Katina had Devilon and Brittany. Over the next few years,
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  Speaker 1: they added to their blended family with a son and
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  Speaker 1: a daughter, Devin and April.
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  Speaker 2: Was he a good dad, Yeah, he was a good dad.
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  Speaker 2: I'm I can't take that away from him. You know,
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  Speaker 2: he was a good dad. He basic the boys used
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  Speaker 2: to catch weapons. But but yeah, he was a good dad.
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  Speaker 1: But for Katina, the pattern of abuse continued over the years.
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  Speaker 1: Their arguments would turn into fights and then into physical violence.
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  Speaker 1: Katina later testified to being beaten by Ronaldo on numerous occasions,
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  Speaker 1: sometimes in front of their children. She suffered bruises, a
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  Speaker 1: broken nose, and once Ronaldo kicked her hard enough to
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: dislocate her shoulder.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I love Ronaldo and I wanted to stick
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  Speaker 2: it out, I really did, but some days I just
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  Speaker 2: felt so disgusted and was depressing down, and I just
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  Speaker 2: lost myself and it was breaking me down. And I
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  Speaker 2: didn't even know that it was breaking me down because
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  Speaker 2: I couldn't even find my way no more.
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  Speaker 1: Katina reported the abuse to police multiple times over the years.
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  Speaker 1: At one point, she says her grandmother tried to step
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  Speaker 1: in and warn her.
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  Speaker 2: My grandmother, that was my best friend. She knew everything.
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  Speaker 2: In the last incident before she passed. In all three,
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  Speaker 2: that's when he broke my nose. And I went over
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  Speaker 2: there and she looked at me, and I grabbed the
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: doorknob and she say tea, and I look back at her.
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  Speaker 2: She said, baby, you have to get out. She says,
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  Speaker 2: somebody's gonna get hurt. And I didn't say anything. I
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  Speaker 2: just walked out the door.
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  Speaker 1: How did your children react to they abuse? Did they
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: see it?
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  Speaker 2: They used to hear it because we were you know,
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  Speaker 2: they was in a home with us, and I used
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: to always like, you know, tell them to go in
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  Speaker 2: a room or whatever.
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  Speaker 3: But if we.
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  Speaker 2: Thought like that night and they sleep, they used to
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  Speaker 2: see my face the next morning, you know, we'll go out.
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  Speaker 3: Tell my kids.
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  Speaker 1: Were you afraid for them?
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  Speaker 3: As far as him abusing them?
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  Speaker 2: No, not, No, I wasn't afraid for them.
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  Speaker 3: What I was afraid for is.
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  Speaker 2: Them seeing me get abused and they thinking it's okay.
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  Speaker 2: That's when it's time to exit.
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  Speaker 3: No matter what.
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  Speaker 4: My father was a good father and my mother was
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  Speaker 4: a good mother, but they just had their own issues.
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  Speaker 1: This is April Curly, Katina and Rinaldo's youngest daughter.
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  Speaker 5: My mom is very sweet.
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  Speaker 4: Everybody loves her, All my friends love her. When I
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  Speaker 4: was younger, she used to take me and my siblings skating,
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  Speaker 4: especially on the weekends, so we all know how to skate.
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  Speaker 1: What do you remember about your parents' relationship.
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  Speaker 4: My parents' relationship, it was good when it was good,
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  Speaker 4: and when it was bad, it was bad. As far
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  Speaker 4: as the fighting, the me waking up in the middle
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  Speaker 4: of the night trying to protect my mom, it was
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  Speaker 4: a lot.
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  Speaker 5: It's a lot of the fightings.
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  Speaker 4: Like any love thing would wake me up, so if
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  Speaker 4: the argument start, I know to get up, like I
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  Speaker 4: know it's gonna go far.
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  Speaker 2: The The only one wasn't really scared of coming along
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  Speaker 2: was my baby.
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  Speaker 3: That was April. She used to always come check on
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  Speaker 3: me always.
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  Speaker 1: From a very young age. April and instinctively felt that
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  Speaker 1: she had to protect her mother.
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  Speaker 4: I know, maybe if I come in, maybe it will stop.
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  Speaker 4: Like my brothers and my sister probably still stay asleep
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  Speaker 4: or stay in the room. But me, I was always
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  Speaker 4: the little warrior. I was brave. I wasn't scared. I
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  Speaker 4: just feel like if I was to help her, it
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  Speaker 4: will stop. And nobody else was able to stop it
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  Speaker 4: at that moment. But me, I go over there and
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  Speaker 4: be like, stop hitting the I pull him off, I
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  Speaker 4: tell him stop fussing. But usually if he see me,
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  Speaker 4: it will stop. He had defuse the problem and he'll leave.
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  Speaker 4: Or I'd just tell her, come on, get your keys
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  Speaker 4: and let's go, and I'll try to leave with her,
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  Speaker 4: something like that.
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  Speaker 1: So you did exit, Yeah, I exit a lot of times.
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  Speaker 3: To be honest with you, I exit. I exit a
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  Speaker 3: lot of times.
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  Speaker 2: But he always found me and find a way persuade
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  Speaker 2: me to come back home. Is like, I love you,
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  Speaker 2: we have a baby, we have a family. You know
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  Speaker 2: we're gonna work it out, and it's not gonna happen.
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  Speaker 2: It's the same thing over and over and over again.
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  Speaker 2: And then he got to the point where saying, nobody
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  Speaker 2: not gonna love you like me, and you have four
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  Speaker 2: kids and who's gonna take you with these kids and all?
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  Speaker 2: And that's something that I thought about a lot, like,
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  Speaker 2: who are gonna take me with these four kids? You know,
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  Speaker 2: how how do I start all over?
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  Speaker 1: Were you working? At that time?
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  Speaker 3: He didn't want me to work. I had. I had
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  Speaker 3: a good bit of jobs, but he used to always
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  Speaker 3: make me quit.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: Eventually, Katina started a job at Walmart and she liked
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  Speaker 1: it and she wanted to keep it.
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  Speaker 5: This particular job.
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  Speaker 2: I told him, I said, whatever happened is gonna happen
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  Speaker 2: because I've been trying to get on here and I'm
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  Speaker 2: gonna work this job.
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  Speaker 3: I want to work. I was tired of stay home.
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  Speaker 2: I was tired of being bored being a you know,
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  Speaker 2: a housewife, cleaning, cooking, you know the norm. And I
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  Speaker 2: just want to get out and you know, make my
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  Speaker 2: own money. I wanted my own money. I needed to
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: find me again. And you know, as the months went by,
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  Speaker 2: I guess he just dealt with it. I was working
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  Speaker 2: at Walmart for like almost three years before this incident happened.
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  Speaker 1: In March of two thousand and five, when Katina was
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  Speaker 1: thirty two years old, she left Rinaldo yet again.
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  Speaker 2: You know the reason, why I left is so we
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  Speaker 2: wouldn't get into another fight.
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  Speaker 3: You know.
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  Speaker 2: I thought it was just gonna be a few days.
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  Speaker 2: But the few days turned it so a week. The
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: week turned it so look like another week.
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  Speaker 1: Katina was staying with her mother during this time, while
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  Speaker 1: the children stayed at the house with Rinaldo.
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  Speaker 2: I used to go home, make sure they ate, make sure,
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  Speaker 2: you know, Brittany got April together, his voice, she took
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  Speaker 2: her bed, got a hell homb stuff like that. I
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: used to make sure they were straight, and then I leave.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: So how long were you separated before the incident?
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  Speaker 2: Just like, probably almost two weeks. I'm gonna say two
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: weeks at the most.
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  Speaker 1: And did you feel like this was going to be
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: maybe the final time? Like?
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: Was this.
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: I wanted to be the final time.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: I wanted it to be the final time, but I
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: didn't want it to be a final time like this.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. You can
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: one week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. On March thirtieth, two
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: thousand and five, police were called to the Curly residence
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  Speaker 1: on Bass Street in the Littlewoods area of East New Orleans.
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  Speaker 1: There they found the body of twenty nine year old
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  Speaker 1: Raynaldo Curley. He had been shot through the heart and
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: was dead. A thirty eight caliber revolver was on the
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: table nearby.
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  Speaker 6: Okay, there, there is a lot of different versions of
• 13:08
  Speaker 6: what happened.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: This is Katina's post conviction attorney, Majeta Sneed.
• 13:13
  Speaker 6: I'm an attorney and law professor at Loyola Law School
• 13:17
  Speaker 6: in New Orleans. So the shorter version, which I think
• 13:23
  Speaker 6: everybody agrees on, is that Katina and you know, they
• 13:27
  Speaker 6: were separated at the time of this incident. So Katina
• 13:31
  Speaker 6: would come over and parenting things would happen, but she
• 13:35
  Speaker 6: would not sleep there.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: So do you remember what started the argument that day?
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: What started the argument was they had someone in the
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: house that wasn't supposed to be there. That was my home,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: no matter what, there was me and my children's home.
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  Speaker 2: You know, that was our that's my family. So why
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: are you here? You don't there's you know, there's to
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: meet as a form of disrespect.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: A neighbor Didra Andrews later testified at trial that she
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: had come over to the house to help Rinaldo get
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: the children ready for bed. Rinaldo's cousin, Chico, was also
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: there at the time.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: So I asked them to leave, and that's how the
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: argument started.
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  Speaker 6: Ronaldo did not appreciate her coming in and asking them
• 14:22
  Speaker 6: to leave, and so she proceeds to the upstairs bedroom.
• 14:27
  Speaker 6: He follows her. There is a confrontation. Whether the confrontation
• 14:32
  Speaker 6: was physical, whether it was just verbal. There's allegations that
• 14:38
  Speaker 6: he choked her, there's allegations that he threw a coke.
• 14:42
  Speaker 7: Can at her.
• 14:44
  Speaker 6: Whatever happened in that bedroom, they were the only two
• 14:47
  Speaker 6: in the bedroom, and at some point he goes back downstairs.
• 14:55
  Speaker 7: She grabs his gun and goes.
• 14:59
  Speaker 6: Downstairs in her mind to leave the residents, but knowing
• 15:05
  Speaker 6: from a historical standpoint that he may attempt to stop her,
• 15:09
  Speaker 6: she armed herself.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Where did the gun come from?
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Well, actually that was his gun. That was his gun.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: And I used to always ask him, you know, tell him, I.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: Don't we don't need no gun in a home.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: I never liked guns, you know, guns are dangerous, and he.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: Just was he just was adamant to have it there.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Would he ever pull it out during arguments?
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was pulled out on me. Before it was
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: pulled out on me before.
• 15:47
  Speaker 5: I remember Mom come home to come check on us.
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: I know, I just got done, taken a bath and
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: I did eat, so she was coming to check on
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: me and my sister make sure we did our homework,
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: her usual you know routine.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: April was eight years old. She and three of her
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: siblings were home at the time, Rinaldo and Brittany, who
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: were both twelve, and Devin, who was ten.
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: As soon as I hear the screaming of the fussing,
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: I'm automatically, you know, going downstairs or wherever they are.
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: That's where I'm going because I know it's going to
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: escalate to something.
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: Father. So when I heard her, you.
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: Know, asked them to leave and me didn't leave, and
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: my dad got angry and it was like, you know,
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: this is his house too, and I already know it
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: was going to be something beyond it.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Did you do you remember hearing the gun?
• 16:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah? Of course I was in the stairway, so yes,
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: I do.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Did you see your dad? Did you see this happen?
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: Actually I say everything. I remember him standing a while
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: before he fell down to the ground. I remember my
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: Mom's screaming his name, shaking, crying, and I remember a
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: lot of people just bum rushing into the house.
• 17:10
  Speaker 6: The police come, she's arrested, and they then begin their
• 17:15
  Speaker 6: investigation about whether or not this was a justifiable shooting
• 17:21
  Speaker 6: or not.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: So in all of the versions, does everyone agree that
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Katina was the shooter?
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: Oh?
• 17:27
  Speaker 6: Yes, she acknowledges she was the shooter. The police ultimately
• 17:32
  Speaker 6: determined that it was not justifiable, turn it over to
• 17:35
  Speaker 6: the DA who also agreed that it was not justifiable.
• 17:39
  Speaker 6: And so that's how we get to her actually being
• 17:43
  Speaker 6: charged with second degree murder and going through a trial.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Afterwards. Before you were arrested, do you remember having any
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: thoughts for you like what just happened?
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: Ma'am?
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: I was.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: I don't have a clue. I was like, I was
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: just there, like I didn't have a brain or nothing
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: in my head because I.
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: Just couldn't believe it. What is going on that day
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: is a blur.
• 18:18
  Speaker 6: You know, you go through there are moments where yes,
• 18:21
  Speaker 6: I know this, this, this and this, and at some
• 18:24
  Speaker 6: point there your body shuts down, your mind shuts down.
• 18:28
  Speaker 6: There are moments in that you know, in seconds where
• 18:32
  Speaker 6: you're not really sure other than fear. You could talk
• 18:37
  Speaker 6: about fear, but details. Why am I fearful? How did
• 18:41
  Speaker 6: I move? Which way did I turn? When did I
• 18:43
  Speaker 6: actually pulled the trigger? Did I actually pull the trigger?
• 18:46
  Speaker 7: Those details? It is common not to be able to
• 18:50
  Speaker 7: answer those questions with any precision.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: When I got to the police station, you know, they
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: gave me water. They was asking me, kept asking me,
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: was our okay? And then they finally told me, you know,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: I need to tell them what happened or whatever. And
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: I started talking and explaining, and to be honest with you,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: I don't even know if I was explaining it right now.
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: I was just that messed up. I don't even know
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: if I was even explaining myself right.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: Did you have a lawyer with you? No?
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Did you know you could?
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: They told me I could. I heard him, and I
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: didn't hear. It's like you hear, you don't hear.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: On August fourth, two thousand and five, Katina was indicted
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: on a charge of second degree murder. Her plea at
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: the time was not guilty by reason of insanity. This
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: would require that Katina prove at the time of the
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: shooting she didn't know right from wrong. Two days before trial,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: her defense attorney John Fuller, changed her plea to not
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: guilty based on self defense and withdrew the insanity plea.
• 20:01
  Speaker 6: Had he kept that in, he could have then introduced
• 20:05
  Speaker 6: expert testimony on the issue of battered women.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: So would battered women's syndrome have been a common defense
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: back then, almost twenty years ago? I guess is that
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: something that we talked about.
• 20:17
  Speaker 6: We talked about it, but it wasn't so much utilized
• 20:21
  Speaker 6: in domestic violence cases.
• 20:24
  Speaker 7: It was a movie, The Burning Bed. Farah Fawcet played a.
• 20:29
  Speaker 6: Battered woman, and I'm going to think it came out
• 20:32
  Speaker 6: in the seventies or eighties, but that was the first
• 20:36
  Speaker 6: time that we actually heard about a woman being justified
• 20:43
  Speaker 6: in fighting back to the point of death.
• 20:46
  Speaker 7: What battered women's syndrome.
• 20:49
  Speaker 6: Talks about is a response to stimuli when you have
• 20:56
  Speaker 6: suffered from trauma. So, for instance, you hear about post
• 21:00
  Speaker 6: traumatic stress syndrome with veterans, someone who suffers from that,
• 21:07
  Speaker 6: there's usually a trigger that sets that emotion, and so
• 21:12
  Speaker 6: the same with bad at women. Something happens that sets
• 21:16
  Speaker 6: in motion what happens to you physiologically and psychologically. That
• 21:23
  Speaker 6: you react in a certain way, so it's not you
• 21:26
  Speaker 6: walking down the street and all of a sudden you say,
• 21:28
  Speaker 6: oh my goodness, I'm hearing these voices and I'm gonna just,
• 21:30
  Speaker 6: you know, go off. There's the triggers, and in bad
• 21:34
  Speaker 6: at women syndrome, it's usually the trigger from the aggressor.
• 21:39
  Speaker 6: The uniqueness of this case was the issue of whether
• 21:44
  Speaker 6: or not, in the moment that the incident occurred, whether
• 21:49
  Speaker 6: the person felt threatened.
• 21:51
  Speaker 7: When you have a situation where.
• 21:53
  Speaker 6: Someone is being physically abused in the moment and the
• 21:58
  Speaker 6: victim reacts and kills the aggressor, a jury could look
• 22:04
  Speaker 6: at that and say, yes, in the moment, she felt
• 22:09
  Speaker 6: her life was in danger or she was in a
• 22:12
  Speaker 6: fear of.
• 22:13
  Speaker 7: Great bodily harm. However, when you have a situation where
• 22:18
  Speaker 7: the jury doesn't see in the moment she was being
• 22:23
  Speaker 7: choked or beaten on, then you need that expert testimony
• 22:30
  Speaker 7: to expound on what the victim is experiencing from a
• 22:35
  Speaker 7: psychological standpoint, from a physiological standpoint, and we did not
• 22:41
  Speaker 7: have it in this case.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Katina's trial began in February of two thousand and seven.
• 22:50
  Speaker 6: The defense put on a lot of information and a
• 22:53
  Speaker 6: lot of evidence regarding history of abuse in the relationship
• 22:58
  Speaker 6: between Katina and all dub He put on a case
• 23:02
  Speaker 6: of police reports, medical evidence, the testimony of her supervisor
• 23:08
  Speaker 6: who talked about her coming.
• 23:09
  Speaker 7: To work with bruises and a broken nose.
• 23:14
  Speaker 6: Just a history of abuse that was documented and so
• 23:18
  Speaker 6: the jury was well aware of that history.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: It was a sad day for both families, you know,
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: from my side and also his side. It was just
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: it was sad.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: And what hurted me the most is that the children
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: had to get up there to testify. You know, what
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: was that like? To see that there was heartbreaking, It
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: really was. It was heartbreaking because at some moment they
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: broke down. You know, their daddy is deceasing, their mom
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: about to go to jail. They're looking at my mom's
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: on trial. You know, they're not gonna have either one
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: of their parents.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: So it was really heartbreaking. It was sad.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: April was just ten years old when she testified at
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: her mother's trial.
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: Like I said, I was brave, so at the time
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: I was ready, but I am very like emotional. I
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: try to be strong the best I could, but when
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: I break down, I break down.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Were a lot of the questions about like what you
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: saw in the hole and their relationship.
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was like did I witness abuse? When was
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: a time did I witness abuse? How many times have
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: I witnessed the abuse? Yeah, it was a lot of
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: a lot of questions.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Brittany and Devin also testified that they'd seen their father
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: be physically violent with Katina on previous occasions, but Ronaldo's
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: oldest son, Rinaldo, said something different.
• 24:46
  Speaker 6: He refuted that there was abuse a history of abuse,
• 24:50
  Speaker 6: so there was, you know, there was.
• 24:53
  Speaker 5: I truly believed.
• 24:55
  Speaker 6: The jury narrowed their focus to that moment, to what
• 25:00
  Speaker 6: was happening in the seconds before Rinaldo was shot, and
• 25:06
  Speaker 6: because there was no evidence in the seconds before he
• 25:09
  Speaker 6: was shot that he was physically confronting her in any way,
• 25:14
  Speaker 6: that was enough for them to say she wasn't justified
• 25:17
  Speaker 6: in her action.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: On March third, two thousand and seven, Katina was convicted
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: of second degree murder by a vote of eleven to one.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: She was sentenced to life in prison without parole.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: I would never thought in a million years that I
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: ever be in prison, and for murder. I've never been
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: incarcerated in like reality had hit like I'm really in prison.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: I had a life sentence over my head. So I
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: had nothing but time, you know, to think what could
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: have happened different if I would have just left and stayed.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: You know this, you know what it could have been me.
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: You know, it could have been meeted, been dead and
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: away from my kids. You know, some people be content.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: I wasn't.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: I always say I'm getting out, you know, I'm going on.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: I know since day one when I stepped for it,
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: it was said it was scary, it was depressing, But
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: I never ever once accepted that life sentence.
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: I never accepted it.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: What was trying to parent and be a mom and
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: be there for your kids, like from behind bars hard.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: It was hard because you only get fifteen minutes on
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: the phone, so you have to keep calling and then
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: they'll come see me. I used to come in the
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: morning and leave, you know, at a certain time. But
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: you know, to me, that was our time to bind
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: and talk, play games together and stuff like that, and
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: it was it felt so good just to.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: Be with them in that moment. But when they left,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: it was so hard. It was so so hard.
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: I think my mom tried her best. It just wasn't
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: enough time, you know, but we always wrote each other.
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: We always talked, and it didn't matter if it was
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: the weekend, if she had to stay up late like,
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: we always had our conversation.
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: And if we didn't have a conversation, I had letter
• 27:29
  Speaker 5: at the mail.
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: So men and my mom are really, really, really close.
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: It was hard because I did left with my grandmother,
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: which is.
• 27:38
  Speaker 5: My mom's mom.
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: I mean I was loved, I was taking care of,
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: but it just wasn't the same.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what is bringing up all the emotions right now?
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: It's just a trigger for me. It's flashbacks, it's limories.
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: It's something you can never forget. I don't care how
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: much therapy, how much talking, when you live so much trauma,
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: it's nothing that could take that away, know about a happiness?
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: What take away what I went through?
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: You know, my oldest son told me one time when
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: he came, you know, he put his head because he
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: like my old man. He quiet and I said, something wrong,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: de what's going on with you? And he looked at
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: me said we ain't have a good Christmas since you left.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: And you know how bad I felt, you know how
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, that really kept me going. My children,
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: my family, my friend, they really I had so much
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: support and so much love and my children.
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: I had to I know, I had to fight for
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: my kids to get out.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: Tina's initial appeal to her conviction was denied. She then
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: filed for post conviction relief, arguing ineffective assistance of counsel.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: They argued that her attorney had withdrawn the insanity defense
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: without consulting her, and that he had failed to educate
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: the jury on the effects of battered women syndrome.
• 29:21
  Speaker 6: So what the Supreme Court ultimately determined was that an
• 29:26
  Speaker 6: expert in the area of bat at.
• 29:28
  Speaker 7: Women syndrome should have been called.
• 29:32
  Speaker 6: Yes, there was an effective assistance, because the trial council
• 29:37
  Speaker 6: admittedly says I never thought about having an expert. I
• 29:43
  Speaker 6: wasn't well versed in the issues of bat at women's syndrome.
• 29:46
  Speaker 6: I thought the facts of the case alone with the
• 29:49
  Speaker 6: history of abuse for almost a decade, would be sufficient,
• 29:53
  Speaker 6: and so I did not even consult an expert.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: On June seventh, twenty eighteen, the Louisiana Supreme Court determined
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: that the jury at the original trial should have had
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: the benefit of expert testimony, and on the basis of
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: ineffective counsel, the conviction was reversed and Katina was granted
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: a new trial. Two days later, she was released on bond.
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: When I found out the day that I was going home,
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: it was in twenty eighteen. It was in June. I'll
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: never forget.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Katina was told to get dressed and go to the
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: prison office, but she had no idea why. When she
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: got there, she was surprised to see her attorney, Paul Barker,
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Like what he doing here?
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: And he looked and he just held the envelope. I
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: envelope up and he was like, you're going home. And
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: I hollered from the Lord Hill mercy. Oh that was
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: a good feeling. I jumped in a man homs like
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: I was a baby. It was really a good feeling.
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: When she came home, we just did everything that we
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: used to do. We was skating, you know, we were
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: pulling as a family. And that was just like me
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: and her. It was like me her and my brother
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: said sisters like we stuck together.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: And then coming home to that they was trying to
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: figure out, you know, who was going to take the case,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: you know how who was gonna try it or whatever.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: And that's when I met miss.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Me Katina's retrial began on February twenty sixth, twenty nineteen,
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: in Orleans Parish Criminal Court before Judge Arthur Hunter Junior.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: This time there was no jury. Judge Hunter would be
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: the one to decide her fate. So how did you
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: feel at your second trial? Did you feel confident?
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: Oh?
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was very confident. I was.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: I was nervous, don't get me wrong, because I mean
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: it's a trial, it's another trial.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: But I was confident. And you know, this second trial.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: But they could have rules to send you back.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they could have rules to send me back. But
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: I was more confident because we had more evidence. We
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: had more pieces, like you know, the experts coming in.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: So that's what made me more confident, you know, for
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: them to explain, you know, what I went through all
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: those years.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: At the retrial, Katina's defense team presented testimony from Beth Meek's,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: a domestic violence expert, and forensic psychologist Catherine Laing.
• 32:30
  Speaker 6: And so between the testing that was done by the
• 32:33
  Speaker 6: psychologist and the expert in that woman's syndrome in general,
• 32:40
  Speaker 6: we were able to show what Mss Curly was experiencing
• 32:45
  Speaker 6: in that moment. There was justification for the fear for
• 32:50
  Speaker 6: the reaction, and based on that testimony not just from
• 32:55
  Speaker 6: the experts, but also from the late witnesses. When you
• 32:58
  Speaker 6: talk about it justifiable defense, that's an affirmative defense. And
• 33:02
  Speaker 6: once you put on an affirmative defense, the state has
• 33:04
  Speaker 6: an obligation to come back and rebuff that, and the
• 33:08
  Speaker 6: state was unable to do so.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: Judge Hunter agreed with the defense's argument. On March first,
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, Katina was acquitted of the murder charge.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: That's another moment that I never forget. When they found
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: me not yelty. I was so excited just knowing I
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: can go home with my kids. Now I can breathe better.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: And it was just such a blessing just to be
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: back with my family and my kids, just to talk
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: on the phone. And my son called me so much,
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Oh my god. All in the mid Devin.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: He like a little in sensitive. He looked like to
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: the baby. He called your mom. What Devin. I'm like,
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: what's wrong? He's like, no, no, I just want to hear
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: your voice. He said.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: It feels so good just to pick up the phone
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: to call you. But is beautiful being out with my
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: kids and my eye of grant.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: I have but eight of.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: Them, so they was kind of busy when I was
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: locked up.
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: My mother is a strong Black woman, and I think
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: she deserves everything that she worked for, everything that she
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: didn't get. I feel like she deserved it. I feel
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: like it's helped her to live. I think it's time
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: for her, you know, just to you know, sit back
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: and just it. Enjoyed herself. It enjoyed her life, not
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: to worry so much, just to be happy.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: But even though she's out of prison, Katina still thinks
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: about the many women who are there because they were
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: victims of domestic violence, just like her.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: They have a good bit of women in there for
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: self defense. And I hear that they're using my case
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: to get a lot of women out of prison, and
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: they have something that got out of prison because of my.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: How does that feel?
• 35:02
  Speaker 5: It feels good.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: It feels good to help other people, other women you
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: know that's going through the same thing I'm going through it.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: As far as like domestic violence, I would like to
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: go talk to like different schools and go to different
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: functions to talk to like lawyers, doctors, police. You know
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: a lot of people don't know about domestic violence. You
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: know they hear about it, but they really don't. They
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: probably be just like me at one point, just thinking
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: we just fighting.
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: But it's not okay. No matter how you look at it,
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: or no matter how much you feel.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Like things will change, when it becomes physical, it will
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: turn out bad.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: If you are experiencing domestic violence, help is available. Call
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: the National Domestic Violence Hotline at one eight hundred seventy
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: ninety nine safe or text start to eight eight seven
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: eight eight. Those numbers will be available in our episode description.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: links in the episode description to see how you can help.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler,
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: and Kevin Wortis, as well as senior producer Annie Chelsea,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: producer Kathleen Fink, story editor Hannah Beale, and researcher Shelby Souls.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: Mixing and sound design are by Jackie Pauley, with additional
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: production by Jeff Cleiburn and Connor Hall. The music in
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: Ralph be sure to follow us on all social media
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: can also follow me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one