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PRETTY DETERMINED: Actress Zoe Lister-Jones · QUESTION EVERYTHING

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Speaker 1: The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Hi.
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Speaker 2: I'm Pia Baron Jeanie, a creative director of Ulpia, an entrepreneur,
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Speaker 2: a wife, and a dog mom based in Los Angeles.
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Speaker 2: This is my new podcast, Everything is the Best, where
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Speaker 2: we basically ask interesting people, how did you go from
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Speaker 2: zero to yach I'm always curious how to help people
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Speaker 2: became successful, and I figured you would be too. Get
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Speaker 2: on the Internet with me. Let's laugh, let's cry, let's overshare,
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Speaker 2: and let's get inspired to live our best lives. Check
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Speaker 2: out new episodes every Wednesday. It's all for you, baby,
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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Love you mean it.
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Speaker 3: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
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Speaker 3: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
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Speaker 3: and I have conversations that put a new spin on pretty.
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Speaker 3: This is pretty smart. Zoe Lister Jones is an actress, writer,
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Speaker 3: and director. You've seen her in Life in Pieces, Whitney,
1:03
Speaker 3: and New Girl, most notably in My Eyes. In twenty seventeen,
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Speaker 3: she made her directorial debut with her indie film band Aid,
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Speaker 3: where she hired an all female crew. It's a first
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Speaker 3: for a feature film. We talk about that experience, why
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Speaker 3: she did it, and what honestly came of it. She
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Speaker 3: also indulged me in a deep dive into what it's
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Speaker 3: like to audition in Hollywood. She talks about her SNL audition,
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Speaker 3: and she told a very funny audition horror story. We
1:30
Speaker 3: chat about the show that changed her life, her relationship
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Speaker 3: with her body, and her hope for the next generation
1:36
Speaker 3: of girls. You know, I usually write a flowery intro,
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Speaker 3: but Zoe's interview doesn't really require one. She's not frilly.
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Speaker 3: She lives out the quintessential Brooklyn demeanor. What you see is.
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Speaker 4: What you get, So Zoe.
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Speaker 3: I usually start these interviews asking questions about somebody's upbringing
1:54
Speaker 3: or their life, or something like sensitive and thoughtful, but
1:56
Speaker 3: I feel like we need to start with Timothy Shalomey.
2:01
Speaker 1: Happily Happily So, I worked.
2:04
Speaker 3: In pop culture and entertainment news for eight years. I
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Speaker 3: feel like I'm on the pulse. I missed the Timothy
2:11
Speaker 3: shallow May phenomenon.
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Speaker 4: Can you expl like, what is it?
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Speaker 1: Wow? Well, you know, I've sort of become the unofficial
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Speaker 1: spokesperson for Timothy Shallmay stands everywhere, and I'm happy to
2:23
Speaker 1: continue holding that mantle. Here, I guess, you know, I'll
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Speaker 1: say what I'm terrified of is like just like what
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Speaker 1: Timothy Shallmay thinks of how much I talk about him
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Speaker 1: in interviews, because it terrifies me. I can only imagine
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Speaker 1: like what it does to him if I was even
2:42
Speaker 1: on the radar. But you know, for me, like I
2:44
Speaker 1: feel like when Called Me by Your Name came out,
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Speaker 1: I had a movie, my first movie that I wrote
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Speaker 1: directors at Sundance the same year that Call Me by
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Speaker 1: Your Name premiered there, and I was just like really
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Speaker 1: excited by my own reaction to watching a homoerotic love story.
3:03
Speaker 1: Like I was so excited that I was so turned
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Speaker 1: on by it. And I think it's like such an
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Speaker 1: important resonant revelation for sis straight women everywhere that actually
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Speaker 1: it's like that sort of homoroticism can be really sexy,
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Speaker 1: and that sexual afflidity and a man can be sexy.
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Speaker 1: And I think like Timmy just came to like represent
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Speaker 1: that in a way that really excited me because he
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Speaker 1: is this sort of like new man, you know, Like
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Speaker 1: I think that there is a new generation of men
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Speaker 1: who are embodying that in a way that is just
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Speaker 1: like exciting and I hope will sort of like transform
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Speaker 1: the conventional notions of masculinity and what it means to
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Speaker 1: be desired by a woman, Like what embodying that masculinity
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Speaker 1: looks like is so much broader than the limiting context
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Speaker 1: that we've been taught. And then he's also like, you know,
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Speaker 1: just hot.
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Speaker 3: That was like really not the answer I was expecting,
4:01
Speaker 3: And it was so nuanced and and interesting.
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Speaker 1: Thank you.
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Speaker 3: I feel like a lot more makes sense to me
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Speaker 3: now because I remember seeing him on a boat with
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Speaker 3: like some really hot woman in her like later thirties,
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Speaker 3: and I was like, he's so young, Like what is
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Speaker 3: it that, like all these women are so obsessed with him?
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Speaker 3: So it's kind of just hemire.
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Speaker 1: Referencing a photo that I know well, which is him
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Speaker 1: and Lily rose up on a boat and can she's certainly.
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Speaker 4: Not in No, no, no, it's not her like a
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Speaker 4: child you No, that was not her.
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Speaker 1: It wasn't he was with an older woman on a boat.
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Speaker 4: He was with a's a Gonzalez.
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Speaker 1: Oh okay, okay, And she's in her thirties. Yes, yes,
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Speaker 1: she's so hot. She defies age so like but yeah,
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Speaker 1: when those when those hit the internet in quarantine. It
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Speaker 1: was a real tree. Yeah, it was like a real
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Speaker 1: gift for all of us. Timmy stands. Yeah, he seems
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Speaker 1: to just be like sex positive cool in that he
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Speaker 1: is positive about sex and and I'm excited by that,
5:02
Speaker 1: by that outlook for him.
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Speaker 3: I'll segue into something else because when I found out
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Speaker 3: that you grew up in New York, I was I
5:07
Speaker 3: have such envy of people that grow up in New York.
5:10
Speaker 3: Over the last two years, I've kind of explored the
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Speaker 3: city more than I ever had before, and I realized
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Speaker 3: that so many New Yorker's personalities hinge or are informed
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Speaker 3: by growing up in New York. And so you grew
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Speaker 3: up in Brooklyn. What do you think the most Brooklyn
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Speaker 3: thing about you is.
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Speaker 1: The most Brooklyn thing about me? Oh? God, probably is
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Speaker 1: that it's just like I live in a constant state
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Speaker 1: of fear, fear of all things, any and all things.
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Speaker 1: It's an interesting combination the like Brooklyn kid makeup, because
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Speaker 1: it's like super neurotic, sort of in survival mode, but
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Speaker 1: also like street smarts. So I feel like I'm like
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Speaker 1: a weird combination of constantly terrified and also like having
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Speaker 1: to sort of not give a fuck in order to survive.
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Speaker 3: I actually hope that that's what anytime I'm on the
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Speaker 3: red cart.
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Speaker 4: But I hope that's what my look conveys.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, constantly terrified and also don't give a fuck.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it is. I think that's an important
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Speaker 1: thing to do it. It would mean like you'd be
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Speaker 1: holding a compact just in case to like check on things,
6:19
Speaker 1: but also you like throw the compact of the photographers.
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Speaker 4: That sounds about right.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: When I was researching, I loved this story that you
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Speaker 3: told about your mom studying Kabbalah.
6:30
Speaker 4: So my mom made me take.
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Speaker 3: A Kabala class with her because she said I needed
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Speaker 3: to understand men better.
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Speaker 1: Oh my god.
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Speaker 3: It was horrible but also simultaneously sort of interesting. But
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Speaker 3: your mom did this like way before Madonna, and she
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Speaker 3: gave you a name because of this.
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Speaker 1: Yes, she named me dirt Pan when I was born
6:52
Speaker 1: for the first ten days of my life, because I
6:56
Speaker 1: guess according to the Kabbala, you're supposed to name your
6:59
Speaker 1: kids some thing shitty so that like the angel of
7:02
Speaker 1: Death passes over you know them. And she came up
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Speaker 1: with like dirt Pan, which isn't even a thing. It's like,
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Speaker 1: it's not even there's a dust pan, a pan to
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Speaker 1: collect dirt. She was like, what's worse than a dust pan?
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Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, I don't know. It might
7:18
Speaker 1: be something that I take on later in life, just
7:21
Speaker 1: the sort of rebirth dirt pan, Lister Jones. It's got
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Speaker 1: a ring to it.
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Speaker 4: Did she tell you?
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Speaker 3: I mean, because you obviously don't remember that the first
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Speaker 3: ten days of your life, like she told you this later. Yeah, yep,
7:33
Speaker 3: which is also interesting that she needed you to know
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Speaker 3: about dirt pan.
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Speaker 1: She did need me to know about dirt pan. I
7:40
Speaker 1: don't remember the first time that she told that story,
7:42
Speaker 1: but there are so many of those stories that have
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Speaker 1: come up in my in my childhood. I think in
7:47
Speaker 1: a good way, but makes me stronger, builds character.
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Speaker 3: Well, it was cool to learn that both of your
7:55
Speaker 3: parents are artists. In other interviews, you said they were
7:57
Speaker 3: never able to make a living with their art. I
8:00
Speaker 3: was curious if they ever tried to steer you away
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Speaker 3: from acting.
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Speaker 1: Interestingly, they didn't, and I'm so grateful that they didn't.
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Speaker 1: They were so supportive really of any creative pursuit, of
8:11
Speaker 1: any pursuit in general, creative or not, but definitely of
8:14
Speaker 1: creative pursuits, and I studied dance when I was little,
8:18
Speaker 1: and I was like interested in sort of dipping my
8:21
Speaker 1: toe into lots of different mediums, and they were just like, yeah,
8:25
Speaker 1: go for it. My mom put me in acting classes
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Speaker 1: when I was younger because I was so shy, and
8:31
Speaker 1: she had taken acting classes because she's a video artist
8:34
Speaker 1: and she had taken acting classes to learn how to
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Speaker 1: direct actors and she had taken them at this place
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Speaker 1: called HB Studios in New York, and she found them
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Speaker 1: really transformative, just like as a person. So yeah, she
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Speaker 1: put me in them, but I was I was always
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Speaker 1: like one foot out the door in terms of the
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Speaker 1: acting thing. Like I was like there was something about
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Speaker 1: it that I was really drawn to, and then I
8:54
Speaker 1: think I was also I couldn't tell if it was lame.
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Speaker 1: I still can't.
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Speaker 4: I was gonna say, do you I still feel that way?
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Speaker 1: Like when I got a scholarship to go to tish
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Speaker 1: at n Yu, just the acting school there, and I
9:07
Speaker 1: was really torn about going, like I just didn't know
9:09
Speaker 1: if I wanted to put all my eggs into that basket.
9:12
Speaker 1: I really loved writing, and I think I also felt
9:16
Speaker 1: nervous about like how limiting that path was and how
9:20
Speaker 1: difficult it was. And I think because I had seen
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Speaker 1: my parents struggle so much as artists themselves, I didn't
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Speaker 1: have any like unrealistic fantasies. My image of my future
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Speaker 1: was bleak as an actor.
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Speaker 4: You know, it's like you saw the Ramen noodles, But.
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Speaker 1: My mom was really the one to be like, no,
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Speaker 1: go take that scholarship and go pursue it.
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Speaker 3: When you think about now, after you've had so much success,
9:46
Speaker 3: like what does it mean to you to be able
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Speaker 3: to live out their dreams? Because I feel like there's
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Speaker 3: so much sacrifice.
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Speaker 1: Involved totally, it's so meaningful to me that I'm able
9:56
Speaker 1: to in some ways like that they have some sort
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Speaker 1: of vicarious thrill, and I think they both do, and
10:02
Speaker 1: their support has only like grown, you know, as I've
10:06
Speaker 1: grown in my life and career. And it's super cool
10:10
Speaker 1: to be able to make a living from art, Like
10:12
Speaker 1: that's just a crazy thing that I never take for granted.
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Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, it's nice for them to see
10:18
Speaker 1: me do that.
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Speaker 3: When I read one of Gloria Steinem's books a few
10:21
Speaker 3: years ago, she talks about how her mom never got
10:24
Speaker 3: to be a writer, and she really wanted to be,
10:27
Speaker 3: and there was kind of some guilt there that she
10:29
Speaker 3: got to do it.
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Speaker 4: Do you feel any of that.
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Speaker 1: Well, yes, I mean that's another characteristic I forgot to
10:35
Speaker 1: mention about the most Brooklyn thing about me. It's also guilt.
10:39
Speaker 1: That's like Jews and Catholics share that, but the Jewish
10:43
Speaker 1: Brooklyn night in me is just consistently guilty about everything.
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Speaker 1: So I do feel guilt about that. I would love
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Speaker 1: for both of my parents to be able to make
10:52
Speaker 1: their work in a way that you know, it's like
10:55
Speaker 1: it's not in a vacuum. Like both my parents have
10:57
Speaker 1: had careers where like my mom is in the permanent
10:59
Speaker 1: collection of MoMA and the Pompadou Center in Paris, and
11:03
Speaker 1: so it's not like they've been making their work in
11:06
Speaker 1: a vacuum. My dad, you know, had a really amazing
11:09
Speaker 1: career as well. But I think when you aren't able
11:13
Speaker 1: to make a living from your art, you then have
11:15
Speaker 1: to take other jobs, and those jobs take away from
11:18
Speaker 1: so much of your creative energy that I think that's
11:21
Speaker 1: what I think is the most sort of tragic part
11:24
Speaker 1: of that narrative. And also, you know, if you're rejected enough,
11:28
Speaker 1: it's really difficult to maintain a sense of self worth
11:33
Speaker 1: as an artist, and I struggle without myself because like,
11:36
Speaker 1: even though I am able to make a living, I'm
11:37
Speaker 1: still constantly facing rejection. So I would love I was
11:41
Speaker 1: just talking to my friend. I would love to like
11:43
Speaker 1: get a gallery to do a retrospective of both of
11:47
Speaker 1: my parents' work, because both of them were so ahead
11:50
Speaker 1: of their time, and I would love to like have
11:53
Speaker 1: a hand in like getting their work out into the
11:56
Speaker 1: public in a new way at this moment in both
11:59
Speaker 1: of their lives.
12:00
Speaker 4: Be really cool.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe an NFT version exactly. I'm glad you brought
12:07
Speaker 3: up auditioning because I'm fascinated by it, Like, I hope
12:12
Speaker 3: you can get into the.
12:13
Speaker 4: Weeds with me a little bit.
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Speaker 3: No one's ever been, like I've never talked to any
12:18
Speaker 3: truly successful actor about.
12:20
Speaker 4: What it was like auditioning. It seems horrendous to me.
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Speaker 3: I can't even imagine you walk into a room with
12:27
Speaker 3: fifty people, fifty women who look like you, which is
12:30
Speaker 3: weird in itself, right, You're like, they all have my
12:33
Speaker 3: same color hair, and my same eyes and sort of
12:35
Speaker 3: the same nose. Yeah, do you become friends with them?
12:38
Speaker 3: Like you guys see each other one after another.
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Speaker 1: You know, like back in the day when I started
12:43
Speaker 1: in my like twenties in New York, it was such
12:46
Speaker 1: a crew. Many of my dearest friends girlfriends are girls
12:51
Speaker 1: that we were just like stuck in waiting rooms forever
12:54
Speaker 1: for so many years together. And yeah, it's like a
12:58
Speaker 1: real I guess in not taking things personally because it's like, well,
13:03
Speaker 1: like every every person has has something different to offer,
13:07
Speaker 1: even if you know she's a brunette with blue eyes
13:09
Speaker 1: or whatever, and that when a friend would get something,
13:11
Speaker 1: it was really that that moment of being like I
13:14
Speaker 1: could feel upset or I could celebrate that person's success
13:17
Speaker 1: and he kind of had to just get to the
13:19
Speaker 1: place of celebrating, you know, other people's successes because it
13:22
Speaker 1: isn't about about you, you know, which is really still
13:26
Speaker 1: a difficult thing to really take in. But like testing
13:31
Speaker 1: what you do when you when you're auditioning for a
13:35
Speaker 1: TV show, once you get down, you know, way down
13:38
Speaker 1: the line in that casting process, there was something that
13:42
Speaker 1: people still do test. But back in the day, you
13:44
Speaker 1: would test by like I lived in New York, they
13:47
Speaker 1: would fly me out to LA I'd be in this
13:50
Speaker 1: room and the stakes are really high because you've already
13:52
Speaker 1: signed your contract, so you know how much money is
13:54
Speaker 1: on the line. You know how many seasons are on
13:56
Speaker 1: the line. Like it feels so you're so close, you know,
13:59
Speaker 1: you can like smell all the success.
14:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you get to that point you're seeing you're
14:04
Speaker 3: seeing some yesses.
14:05
Speaker 1: Right, so you've made it so far that you're seeing that.
14:08
Speaker 1: You're like, I'm so close. There's like it's just like
14:10
Speaker 1: me and three other girls now, you know, as opposed
14:12
Speaker 1: to out however many, you know, hundreds of girls that
14:14
Speaker 1: they've seen for this part, and that I remember just
14:17
Speaker 1: being brutal because what you used to do. There's a
14:20
Speaker 1: studio and a network that own a television show, and
14:24
Speaker 1: so you'd go in front of the studio and used
14:26
Speaker 1: to do this live. You'd basically walk into a room
14:28
Speaker 1: with like twenty five suits and have to do you know,
14:33
Speaker 1: your audition in front of them. And after studio you'd
14:36
Speaker 1: have to go to network if you made it past studio.
14:38
Speaker 1: But you and all the other girls, some of you
14:40
Speaker 1: get cut after studio, so you'd have to sit with
14:44
Speaker 1: them as they got cut and then be like bye
14:46
Speaker 1: as they like cried, and you stayed. It was a
14:49
Speaker 1: fucking nightmare. Oh god. There was one one girl who's
14:54
Speaker 1: a friend of mine who then turned out to be
14:56
Speaker 1: so successful and like it's like nominated for Emmys all
14:59
Speaker 1: the time. But we were both flown out from New
15:02
Speaker 1: York for a role we both went in because I
15:05
Speaker 1: had the rental car. I was driving us both back
15:07
Speaker 1: to our hotel, and she got the call that she
15:10
Speaker 1: didn't get it in the car and I hadn't gotten it.
15:12
Speaker 1: So then the car ride was just like brutal awkward,
15:17
Speaker 1: brutally awkward. She's fine. Now she's more successful than me,
15:20
Speaker 1: So there you go.
15:21
Speaker 4: But that whole experience, because here's the thing.
15:24
Speaker 3: I mean, I respect actors for a lot of reasons,
15:26
Speaker 3: but one of the reasons is that you are so
15:30
Speaker 3: vulnerable and so yourself. Even though you're playing another person,
15:33
Speaker 3: you have to like draw up all these very human feelings.
15:37
Speaker 4: And so it's very difficult to not take that personally.
15:40
Speaker 1: So difficult. It's so difficult, you know, I would say, well,
15:44
Speaker 1: all of it is difficult. It's like as a writer too,
15:47
Speaker 1: like you're like pouring, you know, I like pour my heart,
15:49
Speaker 1: Like every script is like a baby, like one of
15:51
Speaker 1: my babies and then I you know, if it gets rejected,
15:54
Speaker 1: someone's like, well I just don't want to make it,
15:56
Speaker 1: like a producer or a studio or whoever, it's like
15:58
Speaker 1: it's even more gutting. I think across across the industry,
16:03
Speaker 1: no matter what what part it's, it's gutting at every turn.
16:07
Speaker 1: But it is. Yeah, I think, like, I think that
16:10
Speaker 1: level of rejection and having not take it personally is
16:14
Speaker 1: is what sort of I think led me to making
16:16
Speaker 1: my own work pretty early on in my career because
16:19
Speaker 1: it allowed for me to, I guess, bypass the gatekeepers
16:23
Speaker 1: in that way.
16:24
Speaker 4: Yeah.
16:25
Speaker 3: I interviewed Taren Manning years ago and she said she
16:30
Speaker 3: felt like she made it when she's like a script
16:33
Speaker 3: came through for an audition and on the top of
16:35
Speaker 3: it it said Taryn Manning type and it like it's amazing, amazing,
16:40
Speaker 3: and she like she auditioned.
16:42
Speaker 1: Also, why didn't they just offer it to her right now?
16:45
Speaker 4: Do you think there's a Zoe Lister Jones type.
16:48
Speaker 1: A friend of mine told me that he puts a
16:50
Speaker 1: Zoe Lister Jones type into his pilot, which was which
16:53
Speaker 1: was the first time I had heard of it. That's cool.
16:55
Speaker 1: Is there a Zoelser Jones type. I suppose. I mean,
16:58
Speaker 1: I think in the world of television and there is
17:00
Speaker 1: which is just like, uh, you know, dry witted bitch.
17:05
Speaker 4: I don't think bitch. I'll be honest.
17:08
Speaker 1: I bitch is a term of endearment. Yeah, you know, would.
17:11
Speaker 4: You say those are the parts you were getting called
17:13
Speaker 4: in for?
17:14
Speaker 1: Early on, when I first started acting professionally, I called
17:18
Speaker 1: what I did crying for cash because I was crying
17:22
Speaker 1: so much. I was playing so many different victims because
17:27
Speaker 1: I have such like too much access to tears as
17:30
Speaker 1: a person, So I was like anytime it was like
17:33
Speaker 1: you gotta you know, your brother's dead or whatever, I
17:36
Speaker 1: would just be like, I'm there, let's go, and I
17:39
Speaker 1: just fucking water works it up and get the part.
17:42
Speaker 1: And also at that time, like, you know, it's such
17:45
Speaker 1: a rite of passage as a New York actor to
17:48
Speaker 1: do the law and order, And I was on so
17:50
Speaker 1: many Law and Orders which required a lot of crying
17:52
Speaker 1: because I was generally I was once I was a
17:54
Speaker 1: murderer's wife in one episode, and then I was a
17:57
Speaker 1: victim's sister in another. There I'm trying to think what
18:01
Speaker 1: my fourth was I good for Anyway, there's a lot
18:04
Speaker 1: of prime.
18:04
Speaker 3: Do you have an audition in your mind that like
18:07
Speaker 3: it was really memorable that went wrong.
18:10
Speaker 1: That's a good question. Oh well, yeah, there was one.
18:14
Speaker 1: It didn't go wrong, but the lead up was my
18:19
Speaker 1: true healthscape. Like I was testing for a sitcom, and
18:25
Speaker 1: you know, in a test, it's like always, but in
18:27
Speaker 1: a test, especially because you're sort of presenting yourself in
18:30
Speaker 1: this really high stake situation to like the brass at
18:34
Speaker 1: the network and shit, you know, you really have to
18:37
Speaker 1: like do it up, not just in terms of performance,
18:40
Speaker 1: but like what you're wearing. You know. I would always
18:42
Speaker 1: get my fucking hair done. Like I was like, you know,
18:45
Speaker 1: want to look camera ready, as we say. And I
18:50
Speaker 1: got in my car, I was like, I had to
18:52
Speaker 1: drive across town. I was in LA I was had
18:55
Speaker 1: to drive to the west side, so it's about forty
18:57
Speaker 1: five minute drive, and like like thirty five minutes, I
19:00
Speaker 1: realized that I had forgotten my high heels and I
19:03
Speaker 1: was wearing like my like driving shoes which were like
19:06
Speaker 1: really bunk loafers, like they were not they were not
19:11
Speaker 1: camera ready, and I freaked out. I called everyone I
19:15
Speaker 1: knew it. I like tried to stop at Zara. I
19:17
Speaker 1: was like, but nothing was open yet. Because it was
19:19
Speaker 1: so early and I was too far, I would have
19:22
Speaker 1: missed the you know, the test if I would have
19:24
Speaker 1: gone home. And I called my agent and I was like,
19:27
Speaker 1: you got to get me heels, Like I can't show
19:30
Speaker 1: up like this. This sounds so superficial.
19:33
Speaker 3: No, it matters when you're doing this stuff. And also
19:36
Speaker 3: you don't feel good going in if you have.
19:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's something about like me wearing heels that also
19:41
Speaker 1: was like going to give me that sort of like
19:43
Speaker 1: powerful stance that I felt that I needed too. I
19:46
Speaker 1: think now I would have handled this very differently and
19:49
Speaker 1: been like, yeah, I forgot my fucking heels, so you know,
19:52
Speaker 1: we can all just like deal with that. But at
19:54
Speaker 1: the time I was just so nervous and and so
19:57
Speaker 1: I went I got to the audition, I like went
19:59
Speaker 1: in and I was just like, there's nothing I can do.
20:01
Speaker 1: And I was in the middle of the test. This
20:03
Speaker 1: was on camera. This is like they've switched since the
20:07
Speaker 1: olden days of having to go into like a room
20:10
Speaker 1: full of like you know, twenty five people to now
20:12
Speaker 1: you're just like in front of a camera and there
20:13
Speaker 1: they're live streaming it. So I was in front of
20:16
Speaker 1: a camera, but in the middle of the test, there's
20:18
Speaker 1: like a knock on the door, and the producer was like,
20:21
Speaker 1: what is happening and my agent's assistant like cracks the door,
20:25
Speaker 1: was like, I have them, I have them, and she
20:27
Speaker 1: like had like heels like hanging through the fucking crack
20:31
Speaker 1: of the door, and I was like, get out, you know,
20:33
Speaker 1: Like I was just like, I'm in the middle of
20:34
Speaker 1: doing Oh my god. I ended up getting the part
20:39
Speaker 1: you did that was good. I did.
20:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was not expecting that didn't really go that wrong.
20:43
Speaker 3: Then it sort of worked. It worked out.
20:45
Speaker 1: It didn't go wrong. I mean, the producer was like,
20:49
Speaker 1: why is this woman shoving shoes through the crack of
20:52
Speaker 1: this door? But no, it was a funny story, you know,
20:55
Speaker 1: in retrospect to tell once I got the fig out.
20:58
Speaker 4: The part, it is really funny.
21:00
Speaker 3: And I another funny one that I was listening to
21:02
Speaker 3: in one of your interviews was your SNL one.
21:05
Speaker 1: Yes, not great, terrible, No one should ever see that tape.
21:10
Speaker 3: Well, no, I heard you said that it was good.
21:12
Speaker 3: It was just that Fred Armison later recognized you.
21:15
Speaker 1: Right, No, it wasn't good. It was terrible. Fred Armison,
21:19
Speaker 1: who acted in this movie that I wrote, a director
21:22
Speaker 1: called band Aid, told me that he found a note
21:26
Speaker 1: in his iPhone from like two thousand. I don't know
21:30
Speaker 1: when I did that, like seven or something, that just
21:33
Speaker 1: said Zoe Lister Jones with no explanation. So when we
21:36
Speaker 1: were trying to figure out why, he was like, maybe
21:39
Speaker 1: it was because I watched your tape and I wrote
21:40
Speaker 1: your name down, because Lauren Michaels would like have him
21:44
Speaker 1: watch tape sometimes. But I just there can't be that
21:47
Speaker 1: can't be why because he would have never written down
21:50
Speaker 1: the name of the person that recorded the tape that
21:52
Speaker 1: I recorded. It's it was an abomination.
21:55
Speaker 3: But kind of cool that you were in his phone
21:57
Speaker 3: unknowingly I was on his phone.
21:59
Speaker 4: Yeah, you were memorable in some way.
22:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, in some way, even if it was like steer clear.
22:04
Speaker 4: I have a weird question for you.
22:06
Speaker 3: So your Twitter bio says fifty percent Canadian, one hundred
22:09
Speaker 3: percent real.
22:10
Speaker 1: Yeah.
22:11
Speaker 3: And part of the reason I love my job is
22:13
Speaker 3: like I really love the research part. So I watched
22:16
Speaker 3: every interview you've ever done. Oh and in every single one,
22:21
Speaker 3: because I watch interviews all the time to study and
22:24
Speaker 3: practice in every single one.
22:25
Speaker 4: You are so yourself.
22:27
Speaker 3: You are the same person in every interview, and I
22:30
Speaker 3: can't tell you how rare that is. Really, it was
22:33
Speaker 3: so cool to see. And when you're an actor, so
22:36
Speaker 3: much of your focus is on yourself. It's your headshots
22:39
Speaker 3: and your comp car. I mean definitely now for you
22:41
Speaker 3: it's probably a little bit different, but at the beginning,
22:43
Speaker 3: so much of your focus has to be on yourself.
22:46
Speaker 4: How did you not get weird?
22:49
Speaker 1: Weird? But in a good way? You know that that's
22:54
Speaker 1: really that's really nice me to say that I am
22:57
Speaker 1: myself and all these interviews I fully black out on
22:59
Speaker 1: late I like totally black out because it's nerve wracking.
23:04
Speaker 1: I can't you know, how did I not get weird?
23:06
Speaker 1: I mean, thankfully, And no shade to child actors, but
23:10
Speaker 1: like I think, thankfully I didn't start that early like
23:14
Speaker 1: my mom. I think, like I remember like bringing me
23:17
Speaker 1: to an audition for like something like Bleak, like a
23:20
Speaker 1: Gus Fan film or something when I was like sixteen,
23:24
Speaker 1: And thankfully I didn't get it. And I do you know,
23:27
Speaker 1: I am really glad that I, you know, went to
23:30
Speaker 1: college and didn't just kind of jump in. I guess
23:33
Speaker 1: I think probably my parents is like how I just
23:37
Speaker 1: have never like drank the kool aid too much because
23:40
Speaker 1: I think it is dangerous too. I'll say, one other
23:44
Speaker 1: person who I really credit with giving me a little
23:46
Speaker 1: bit of the fucket that I think was necessary for
23:49
Speaker 1: me to get through this life so far is Julie White,
23:52
Speaker 1: who is a Tony Award winning actress who I did
23:55
Speaker 1: my first play with out of college that got me
23:57
Speaker 1: my equity card and then I ended up pointing a
23:59
Speaker 1: Broadway and she won the Tony for that play. But
24:03
Speaker 1: it was we shared a dressing room. I just remember,
24:05
Speaker 1: like she was so brilliant, she was so razor sharp.
24:09
Speaker 1: She was everything I dreamed of being and aspired to
24:12
Speaker 1: be as a performer, and her process was so like
24:17
Speaker 1: fuck it. Leading leading up to those performances, you know,
24:21
Speaker 1: we would just like read tabloid magazines and like listen
24:24
Speaker 1: to Christina Aguilera and then she just go on and
24:27
Speaker 1: slay and I was like, this is amazing, you know,
24:31
Speaker 1: because she wasn't like and you know, respect to like
24:34
Speaker 1: method actors, but but there was something amazing about seeing
24:38
Speaker 1: like someone just be like, yeah, this is my job
24:41
Speaker 1: and I love it. But like I think I've always
24:46
Speaker 1: sort of like been a little like eye roll towards
24:49
Speaker 1: like how seriously I think you can take the craft
24:53
Speaker 1: seriously and really like the passion of it seriously. And
24:56
Speaker 1: I you know, I think acting is really a lifeline
24:59
Speaker 1: for me because it is is one of the few
25:01
Speaker 1: plays in my life where I like sort of submit
25:04
Speaker 1: to a higher power of sorts, where I'm able to
25:08
Speaker 1: like really let go of control. But yeah, I see
25:12
Speaker 1: was really an inspiration in that, Like it was like,
25:15
Speaker 1: don't take it all too seriously or else you will
25:17
Speaker 1: get weird.
25:18
Speaker 3: The auditioning process and like the self belief leading up
25:22
Speaker 3: to that feels like you had to submit control as well,
25:26
Speaker 3: because there's just it's out of your hands, right, which
25:28
Speaker 3: is the worst part for ambitious people to try and
25:32
Speaker 3: go down a path like that.
25:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, auditioning has never gotten easier, and I'm still having
25:37
Speaker 1: to put myself on tape, you know, all the time
25:40
Speaker 1: for things, and it's still a really frustrating process. There's
25:44
Speaker 1: just no way around it that. I don't think the
25:46
Speaker 1: hurt ever diminishes no matter where you are, you know,
25:50
Speaker 1: like in your career, because it is so out of
25:52
Speaker 1: your control. But I try to see everyone as like
25:55
Speaker 1: an opportunity to learn something new about myself or challenge
25:59
Speaker 1: myself as a performer, or you know, I get to
26:02
Speaker 1: like be performing Aeronofski's like you know, you know for
26:05
Speaker 1: for Aeronofski, or you know, any any number of like
26:08
Speaker 1: cool auteurs that like it's just like, well, that's cool
26:11
Speaker 1: even if I don't get the role.
26:13
Speaker 4: But is there a role that really taught you about yourself?
26:16
Speaker 1: A Talking about myself, I would say probably, Well, the
26:22
Speaker 1: first movie that I made as a co writer coep
26:27
Speaker 1: actor was called Breaking Upwards, and it was like loosely
26:30
Speaker 1: based on an open relationship that my partner and I
26:34
Speaker 1: had been in in real life. So that was definitely
26:38
Speaker 1: like about excavating in a way where like art was
26:42
Speaker 1: meeting life and vice versa. But I think every role
26:46
Speaker 1: is that to a certain extent. I mean, I think
26:49
Speaker 1: especially the roles that I write for myself, like and
26:51
Speaker 1: banded to their such personal stories, even though I'm like
26:55
Speaker 1: calling for my imagination as well. That yeah, I think
26:59
Speaker 1: you have to sort of learn about yourself in those things,
27:02
Speaker 1: and that's part of the fun of it.
27:04
Speaker 3: On another podcast, you said you were told you had
27:08
Speaker 3: a short shelf life at one point.
27:10
Speaker 1: Ooh, that's right by David Mammott, and I will call
27:13
Speaker 1: his ass out because that's a fucked up thing to
27:14
Speaker 1: say to a young woman.
27:16
Speaker 4: It really is. I'll tell you.
27:18
Speaker 3: Somebody said to me when I was like twenty that
27:20
Speaker 3: I was going to I was going to hit my
27:22
Speaker 3: prime and peak at twenty eight, and I was like,
27:24
Speaker 3: I giggled, but it stayed in my head. Oh, yeah,
27:28
Speaker 3: for sure, it's really messed up. And we don't do
27:30
Speaker 3: that to men ever never.
27:33
Speaker 1: So oh they're like a fine wine. They become more
27:37
Speaker 1: expensive with age. Truly.
27:40
Speaker 4: Did it stay in the back of your head for sure?
27:43
Speaker 4: I felt like I'm.
27:44
Speaker 1: Still talking about it. Yeah, Like, well, first of all,
27:47
Speaker 1: it made me really question my decision to get a
27:50
Speaker 1: college education. I mean that was like my freshman year
27:54
Speaker 1: and I was in his acting school at NYU and
27:57
Speaker 1: he was telling me like basically, why are you here,
28:00
Speaker 1: which maybe was like a backhanded compliment, but it was like, wait,
28:05
Speaker 1: I thought I was here to like learn my craft.
28:09
Speaker 1: You know.
28:10
Speaker 3: It's kind of like when you're on a data and
28:11
Speaker 3: a guy says, why are you single? Oh my god,
28:14
Speaker 3: I know, sort of flattering, sort of insulting.
28:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, it definitely stayed with me, and I think
28:22
Speaker 1: that the fear for all women is like, is that fear?
28:25
Speaker 1: I think, even without having a David Mammott say it
28:27
Speaker 1: to a person, we're sort of being fed that construct
28:31
Speaker 1: in one way or another from such a young age,
28:34
Speaker 1: that our youth is our value, you know, and that
28:36
Speaker 1: at a certain point we become invisible, which sadly is
28:39
Speaker 1: still like a real reality. And I see so many
28:42
Speaker 1: of my women friends who are actors, you know, being
28:46
Speaker 1: like wanting to shadow directors and wanting to get into
28:49
Speaker 1: writing and all of that stuff, you know, And I
28:52
Speaker 1: think it is fueled by this, even if it's sort
28:54
Speaker 1: of unconscious, this fear of like when's my time up? Yeah,
28:59
Speaker 1: which is so such bullshit, you know it.
29:03
Speaker 3: Is because it's a double standard, fully, yeah, yeah, totally
29:07
Speaker 3: as you're auditioning and even now, what's your relationship with
29:11
Speaker 3: your body?
29:11
Speaker 1: Like my relationship my body is very complicated, I would say,
29:18
Speaker 1: like so many women, I have, you know, body dysmorphia,
29:22
Speaker 1: and I've had a really complicated relationship to food my
29:26
Speaker 1: entire life. I think because of this just insane drive
29:31
Speaker 1: to be thin, which of course then going into my
29:35
Speaker 1: industry is only like you know, solidified in a really
29:39
Speaker 1: shitty way. I've never had and I'm thankful for this
29:42
Speaker 1: because I know a lot of women who have. I've
29:44
Speaker 1: never had anyone say like you need to lose weight,
29:47
Speaker 1: you know, for a role or anything. But I've always
29:50
Speaker 1: been really thin, you know. Not that they should say
29:53
Speaker 1: that to someone who's nothing, but it's like I've sort
29:55
Speaker 1: of been my own harshest critic in that way of
29:58
Speaker 1: like you're going to have to lose if you want
30:00
Speaker 1: to be on camera, and and.
30:03
Speaker 3: Like you have to stay this weight in order to
30:05
Speaker 3: get this role in your head, probably yea.
30:07
Speaker 1: And it's not even role specific, it's more just like
30:09
Speaker 1: my sense of self worth, you know, of just like
30:13
Speaker 1: and I was talking, you know, like I mean, the
30:16
Speaker 1: Trump presidency was a mind fuck for so many reasons,
30:19
Speaker 1: but I think rating women in a way that that
30:23
Speaker 1: I then had many conversations like some with like male
30:26
Speaker 1: family members of mine who were raiding women at a
30:29
Speaker 1: dinner table with my grandmother, president, with my mom, with
30:33
Speaker 1: you know, so many women in our family, and they're
30:36
Speaker 1: just like doing it as though it's not just like
30:39
Speaker 1: a deeply painful thing for us to bear witness too,
30:43
Speaker 1: and I spoke up and said, like, hey, so when
30:46
Speaker 1: you do that, it sort of just like confirms that
30:48
Speaker 1: our only value is in our physical appearance and in
30:52
Speaker 1: our desirability to men. And it's not that, like, you know,
30:56
Speaker 1: non hetero women also don't face these things, but at least,
31:00
Speaker 1: you know, in that sort of patriarchal construct. It really
31:03
Speaker 1: is like so much of our self worth is really
31:08
Speaker 1: based in that paradigm. That's just so debilitating. And I
31:12
Speaker 1: know so few women who are not completely fucked up
31:16
Speaker 1: by it. So even women, yeah, like and even women
31:20
Speaker 1: where I'm like you seem like like any unicorn of
31:23
Speaker 1: a woman, where I'm like, you seem to have like
31:25
Speaker 1: a like healthy relationship with yourself image, I'll then learn
31:29
Speaker 1: something where they completely don't. You know, it's really tragic.
31:35
Speaker 1: And I was talking to a young friend of mine
31:37
Speaker 1: who's eighteen, and we were with another friend of ours
31:40
Speaker 1: who's who's my age, and she was talking about doing
31:44
Speaker 1: this you know, diet where she's counting calories and da
31:47
Speaker 1: da da. I think you should not be talking about
31:49
Speaker 1: this right now because I'm just so protective over this
31:53
Speaker 1: new generation like that there could be some hope you know,
31:56
Speaker 1: because I think there is so much more body positivity now,
32:00
Speaker 1: and I think companies are working towards you know that,
32:03
Speaker 1: and representation is obviously so important in terms of the
32:06
Speaker 1: images we're consuming and seeing and going, oh, that's that's
32:09
Speaker 1: a beautiful body too.
32:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with you. The hope is there. It
32:12
Speaker 3: feels like there's a shift. It needs to be more,
32:15
Speaker 3: but it feels like it's there.
32:17
Speaker 1: It does. But of course this eighteen year old my
32:19
Speaker 1: friend was like, well, she doesn't have body issues. And
32:21
Speaker 1: then this eighteen year old is like, yeah, I've been
32:24
Speaker 1: counting calories since I was like twelve, you know, Like, yeah,
32:27
Speaker 1: so I think it is. It is on us as well,
32:30
Speaker 1: like as women, to also try to shift that. I
32:34
Speaker 1: just said to this eighteen year old, like, please, like
32:37
Speaker 1: go to a hypnotist, like do something like stop it
32:39
Speaker 1: in its tracks now, because it is the biggest waste
32:42
Speaker 1: of your fucking energy, and you will spend all of
32:46
Speaker 1: your energy on this bullshit that could be put towards
32:49
Speaker 1: so many other really meaningful things in your.
32:52
Speaker 4: Life and things that will actually make you happier.
32:55
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, Oh it's such a punishing cycle, you know
33:00
Speaker 1: it is.
33:01
Speaker 3: I want to cut to Whitney in twenty eleven because
33:06
Speaker 3: that's when I first saw you and so cool. You
33:08
Speaker 3: were a supporting character, and each week I would tune
33:12
Speaker 3: in for you, like to me, you stole the show.
33:15
Speaker 3: All the punchlines, all the wit to me came from you.
33:18
Speaker 3: And I actually think as the show progressed, the writers
33:21
Speaker 3: and like that, whoever the director was must have seen
33:24
Speaker 3: it because your character grew.
33:25
Speaker 1: Also, yeah they did. They started to write for me more,
33:27
Speaker 1: which was really nice.
33:29
Speaker 4: But that was such an ode to I think what
33:31
Speaker 4: you brought to it.
33:33
Speaker 1: Thank you.
33:34
Speaker 4: When you went into the audition room, Whitney said why
33:35
Speaker 4: aren't you famous?
33:36
Speaker 1: Yet? Yes, not too similar to the date asking why
33:41
Speaker 1: are you single?
33:43
Speaker 4: Like also sort of insulting, sort of a confident.
33:48
Speaker 1: You know. I think like it's the equivalent of it
33:49
Speaker 1: if that date asked you why are you single? And
33:51
Speaker 1: then like put a ring on it, you know what
33:53
Speaker 1: I mean, Like Whitney did. She said whyren't you famous?
33:56
Speaker 1: And then she gave me a job that really did
33:58
Speaker 1: launch my career in in a way that was it
34:01
Speaker 1: just it changed the course of my life. So I'm
34:04
Speaker 1: forever grateful to her. But yes, she did ask me
34:07
Speaker 1: why and I did not why I wasn't and I
34:10
Speaker 1: didn't have an answer. But at that point in my life,
34:12
Speaker 1: I had been auditioning and testing for so many pilots
34:16
Speaker 1: and I just was not getting any and it got
34:18
Speaker 1: It was getting to a point where I was like,
34:20
Speaker 1: what is going on? Like because all of these casting
34:24
Speaker 1: directors and even directors would just be like, you're amazing,
34:28
Speaker 1: you know, not to pat myself in the back, but
34:29
Speaker 1: I was getting really good feedback, and so I was like, so,
34:32
Speaker 1: where's the disconnect that I'm not actually getting the job?
34:35
Speaker 1: And it does just take one person? And that was Whitney, and.
34:39
Speaker 3: You felt like after that it was easier to gain traction.
34:43
Speaker 1: Absolutely it opened the door. And then I really, since
34:47
Speaker 1: Whitney haven't stopped working in television. So I've been really
34:50
Speaker 1: fortunate in that way.
34:52
Speaker 3: You've said a lot of things that resonated with me
34:54
Speaker 3: in your other interviews, but this was by far my favorite.
34:57
Speaker 3: You said you were always very aware of how women
34:59
Speaker 3: are portrayed on screen, and the general lens through which
35:02
Speaker 3: you view the world is pretty focused on gender inequity.
35:06
Speaker 4: Same.
35:09
Speaker 3: I don't know where it came from or why, but
35:11
Speaker 3: it's always been like since I was little, the lens
35:14
Speaker 3: through which I see things, so the way I watch movies,
35:17
Speaker 3: the way I see women on screen in life, in meetings.
35:22
Speaker 3: So you did something about it. You said, there were
35:24
Speaker 3: a lot of talk about numbers that weren't changing, and
35:26
Speaker 3: you were in a position to do something. So you
35:29
Speaker 3: wrote and directed a movie titled band Aid, and you
35:31
Speaker 3: put an all female crew together, which was the first
35:34
Speaker 3: for a feature film, which is very cool.
35:36
Speaker 1: That I know of. That I know of, Yeah, that
35:38
Speaker 1: I know of too.
35:39
Speaker 3: Do you think that being on the other side of
35:42
Speaker 3: the camera makes you look at younger you differently now
35:46
Speaker 3: that you're doing other things besides acting.
35:49
Speaker 1: Gosh, my gut says no, because like, younger me was
35:53
Speaker 1: really intrepid in a way that I actually look back
35:56
Speaker 1: at younger men. I'm like, where did that come from?
35:59
Speaker 1: You know? Before graduating NYU, I wrote a one woman
36:03
Speaker 1: show for myself to star in, and I got like
36:07
Speaker 1: five grand like from like friends and family and rented
36:10
Speaker 1: a theater and put it on. And that's how I
36:12
Speaker 1: got my first like agent and manager. And there's like
36:15
Speaker 1: I think I've always had like a real hustler spirit
36:19
Speaker 1: in that way of like some hutzpa, real hutzpa. Yeah,
36:25
Speaker 1: but I mean I do think that after that, I
36:28
Speaker 1: then didn't you know, it took me a while to
36:30
Speaker 1: direct something, and I didn't have that hutzpa to do
36:33
Speaker 1: that right away. So I guess that's the younger part
36:37
Speaker 1: of me that I'm sort of interested in, Like, why
36:39
Speaker 1: didn't you just go be like, Okay, I'm gonna go
36:41
Speaker 1: make a movie now? You know?
36:43
Speaker 4: Has there been something about success that surprised you?
36:46
Speaker 1: I don't identify as successful.
36:50
Speaker 4: I think that's such an interesting answer in itself.
36:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I am grateful for the success that
36:59
Speaker 1: I have, for sure, but I think at any level
37:02
Speaker 1: in one's career, there's always like so many more milestones
37:07
Speaker 1: to hit. I guess maybe that's it. It's like that
37:11
Speaker 1: the things that I've dreamed of accomplishing, it's like, once
37:14
Speaker 1: you accomplish them, it's very quick. You very quickly go okay,
37:18
Speaker 1: But I haven't accomplished this other thing. I think the
37:22
Speaker 1: hardest thing is to celebrate my successes.
37:26
Speaker 3: What do you think the biggest sacrifice is that you've
37:28
Speaker 3: made along the way.
37:32
Speaker 1: I think like having fun. I have fun, but I
37:39
Speaker 1: definitely am addicted to work, and I definitely believe that
37:43
Speaker 1: my value is based on how productive I am, so
37:46
Speaker 1: I think I have sort of sacrificed some life things,
37:50
Speaker 1: and that's I think Quarantine has been a big lesson
37:53
Speaker 1: in that in terms of what I want to shift
37:56
Speaker 1: moving forward. Is like a sense of play that is
37:59
Speaker 1: outside of work, because I'm fortunate enough to have a
38:03
Speaker 1: sense of play in my work, you know. But then
38:06
Speaker 1: but then I come home and I'm tired, or then
38:07
Speaker 1: I'm not working and I'm anxious, and it's like, how
38:10
Speaker 1: do I bring that sense of play into my non
38:13
Speaker 1: working life?
38:14
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's it. I feel very similarly.
38:17
Speaker 3: I think when you get a lot of joy out
38:18
Speaker 3: of your work, it's hard to force yourself to do
38:21
Speaker 3: it outside of work too.
38:22
Speaker 1: Totally. Yeah, what's one.
38:25
Speaker 3: Thing you've learned from the younger generation of women and
38:27
Speaker 3: one thing you've learned from the older generation of women?
38:30
Speaker 1: Ooh, I like this question. Well, I guess the younger
38:35
Speaker 1: generation of women I think they are embodying like sex positivity,
38:41
Speaker 1: body positivity, and intersectionality in a way that I think
38:46
Speaker 1: is something for us all to learn from. And the
38:49
Speaker 1: older generation of women, I mean I've learned, I've learned
38:53
Speaker 1: everything from my mom, you know, who's like an og feminist,
38:57
Speaker 1: and that is why I look at the world through
39:00
Speaker 1: the lens, especially the world of media through the lens
39:03
Speaker 1: that I do. I guess, yeah, I learned from the
39:07
Speaker 1: older generation not to take shit. I guess you know,
39:12
Speaker 1: like there's something Yeah, they just they had to walk through,
39:17
Speaker 1: you know, such hell to get to where they got to.
39:22
Speaker 1: That then paved the way for us. And then you know,
39:25
Speaker 1: we're learning from the fourth wave feminists about our limitations
39:30
Speaker 1: as feminists. So, I mean, I think it's really exciting
39:33
Speaker 1: the way the baton is being passed.
39:35
Speaker 3: It's cool to watch and it's cool to have a
39:36
Speaker 3: little perspective because when I was younger, I don't think
39:39
Speaker 3: I had.
39:39
Speaker 4: That as much.
39:40
Speaker 1: Oh fully, Yeah, is there.
39:42
Speaker 3: Something about Hollywood or your job that bewilders you or
39:46
Speaker 3: still bewilders you everything.
39:51
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what bewilders me. It's like, you know,
39:53
Speaker 1: in the world of television, like as a creator, I've
39:57
Speaker 1: pitched so many things in my career haven't gone and
40:00
Speaker 1: I think all of them are great, just like and
40:04
Speaker 1: it's bewildering, you know, where you're just like, well, why
40:07
Speaker 1: why not? This?
40:08
Speaker 4: Is that? Why you started your production company, well.
40:11
Speaker 1: The production company, I mean, yes, but I think there
40:15
Speaker 1: is a I mean, I'm trying to push for this
40:18
Speaker 1: in as many ways as I can, and I wish
40:21
Speaker 1: there was a world for independent television making because our
40:25
Speaker 1: production company.
40:26
Speaker 4: Is a great idea, is.
40:28
Speaker 1: Great at like independent filmmaking. But even if you have
40:31
Speaker 1: a production company, you still have to get through the
40:33
Speaker 1: gatekeepers of the studios and networks.
40:35
Speaker 4: And and they're channel that's so cool.
40:38
Speaker 1: I know, or like or like I mean festivals they
40:41
Speaker 1: are now showing like independent pilots, but it's rare that
40:44
Speaker 1: they go anywhere. And I was just like talking to
40:47
Speaker 1: a friend who's a producer and saying, like, it would
40:50
Speaker 1: be so cool if, like we could just go shoot
40:53
Speaker 1: a series a season of television independently and then sell
40:56
Speaker 1: it there. And there hasn't really been a model for that.
41:00
Speaker 4: I think you need to create that really great idea.
41:06
Speaker 1: Thank you.
41:07
Speaker 3: Is there a book that you think everyone should read
41:09
Speaker 3: or a book that changed your life?
41:11
Speaker 1: I read a book many years ago that then I
41:14
Speaker 1: reread recently called Open to Desire Mark Epstein. It's like
41:21
Speaker 1: an interesting meditation on Buddhism. Did you read this book? No?
41:26
Speaker 3: But I'm going to get it. It sounds kind of
41:30
Speaker 3: like what I need right now.
41:31
Speaker 1: It's a really interesting exploration of like how we deal
41:36
Speaker 1: with our desires and that like the part of desire
41:40
Speaker 1: is that it's the place in between wanting and getting,
41:44
Speaker 1: and that there's a complete submission in desire that you
41:47
Speaker 1: have to be open to because so many of us
41:49
Speaker 1: in our desire want to control the outcome. We want
41:52
Speaker 1: to get it, but a lot of it means that
41:54
Speaker 1: we don't get it, and you still have to be
41:56
Speaker 1: cool with the desire, you know, and to like relish
41:58
Speaker 1: in the desire, in the act of desiring, because that's
42:01
Speaker 1: so important. But letting go of the clinging to the
42:04
Speaker 1: outcome is like the hardest part.
42:07
Speaker 3: Kind of a profound New Age rom com.
42:14
Speaker 1: Well, I wrote something sort of based on it, so yeah,
42:16
Speaker 1: that was it's inspired my work. And then probably like
42:20
Speaker 1: ton Heasy coachs Between the World and Me, I think
42:22
Speaker 1: is like something that everyone needs to read, especially you
42:28
Speaker 1: know now for obvious reasons. But yeah, he's just got
42:31
Speaker 1: such a brilliant mind and is such an amazing educator,
42:36
Speaker 1: you know, in a very poetic.
42:39
Speaker 3: Way and delivers information really digestively. Totally so when I
42:45
Speaker 3: asked you the question about your body and your relationship
42:48
Speaker 3: to it. The reason I named the podcast pretty Smart
42:51
Speaker 3: is because I read a book called Beauty Sick that
42:53
Speaker 3: changed my life, and the author talks about how we
42:57
Speaker 3: value pretty among anything else in American women. And I
43:02
Speaker 3: thought about the prettiest women I knew, and they were pretty, funny,
43:06
Speaker 3: pretty strong, pretty kind, like all these other types of pretty.
43:09
Speaker 3: And if you ask any other person, specifically guys, who
43:12
Speaker 3: the prettiest woman in their life is, no one says
43:14
Speaker 3: like Instagram models, so and so. They all say, like
43:17
Speaker 3: my mom my, sister, like people that are truly pretty.
43:20
Speaker 3: So I came up with a card deck, and I
43:22
Speaker 3: always ask one random question. Okay, what is a piece
43:27
Speaker 3: of pop culture, a movie, TV show, or album that
43:30
Speaker 3: made you feel like you belonged?
43:34
Speaker 1: There are so many in terms of pop culture. I mean,
43:37
Speaker 1: Liz Fair's Exile in Guyville was an album that I
43:39
Speaker 1: listened to too young. I didn't understand what she was
43:42
Speaker 1: talking about. It was like really sexually provocative, but I understood,
43:46
Speaker 1: like I liked that there was room for like anger
43:51
Speaker 1: in a woman's work, and that it could be funny
43:54
Speaker 1: and it could be sort of irreverent and self referential,
43:58
Speaker 1: and I think, yeah, that was like a seminal album
44:01
Speaker 1: for me in that way, and sexy, like she could
44:04
Speaker 1: be all of those things. I remember watching Reality Bites
44:07
Speaker 1: and it really it's a little corny, you know, to admit,
44:14
Speaker 1: but like I then ended up shaving my head. I
44:17
Speaker 1: was young. I was like eleven. I think I shaved
44:20
Speaker 1: my head for many reasons that I think as an
44:22
Speaker 1: adult now in retrospect, I understand some of the things
44:25
Speaker 1: that I was going through emotionally as well. But Reality Bites,
44:29
Speaker 1: like Wanona in Reality Bites, she didn't even have that
44:32
Speaker 1: that short hair. She had sort of a mullet as
44:34
Speaker 1: if I remember, but she was like doing something. There
44:36
Speaker 1: was something about the sort of counterculture of those nineties
44:39
Speaker 1: kids that I was like, yes, I want in I identify.
44:43
Speaker 3: Last question, what is the smartest decision you've ever made?
44:48
Speaker 1: To hire all women on band aid as my crew?
44:52
Speaker 1: It really was. It was like, you know, I think
44:55
Speaker 1: there was a selfishly I was looking to also like
44:58
Speaker 1: create an environment in which I could seed as a
45:01
Speaker 1: first time director, and I had just witnessed I had
45:04
Speaker 1: witnessed a lot of the double standards that really come
45:07
Speaker 1: out just in microaggressions with women behind the camera. Directors
45:11
Speaker 1: in particular, just sort of a heavier line of questioning
45:15
Speaker 1: of their decision making. And I didn't want to put
45:18
Speaker 1: myself in that position. And I also just wanted to
45:20
Speaker 1: see what it feel like, you know, in this sort
45:23
Speaker 1: of utopia that I could create, And it exceeded all
45:27
Speaker 1: of my expectations and it did set me up to succeed,
45:30
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, I was able to make
45:33
Speaker 1: the film that I wanted to because of the women
45:37
Speaker 1: that were holding me up and lending their own incredible,
45:40
Speaker 1: you know, singular visions to the project.
45:42
Speaker 4: So you made real change. It was really cool.
45:45
Speaker 1: Oh thanks, yeah.
45:47
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for your time. I really loved
45:49
Speaker 4: getting to know you more.
45:51
Speaker 1: Oh, it was so great to talk to you. Thank
45:53
Speaker 1: you for all of your amazing questions.
45:55
Speaker 3: That's really sweet of you. All Right, today is a
46:15
Speaker 3: good day. To have a good day.
46:16
Speaker 4: I'll see you next week.
46:23
Speaker 3: H