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Becoming a Better Fire Service Instructor: Teaching, Feedback, and Leadership · Fire Engineering Podcast

• Nat Kapustin: From MSA helmets and streamlight flashlights to seek thermal imaging cameras and so much more, the firestore.com has everything you need to serve your community safely and effectively. Good evening and welcome to Talking Tactics. As always, I'm one third of your host, David Polikoff. In the middle with how I'm looking at it, Sam Bellani. And on the far right, RJ. Robert J. How I'm looking at it, you're in the middle. Sam's on the right, I'm on the left. I think we've already proved it. Whatever I do when it comes to IT, it's all screwed up anyway. He done sent the wrong link, man. Got the wrong video. He ain't in the right spot, man. Look, Dave Dave Zero, Technology Two Yeah. I think I'm zero technology. How long been doing this? Two years? Get him out of here. Get him out of here. We're here. And this is why people watch our show. and why we've got good numbers on YouTube, and I'm sure we've got good numbers on Apple and Spotify. So, Fire Engineering, thank you very much for giving us this opportunity to act stupid and exploit all my faults, which is fine. Yeah, like, subscribe, and share. Like, subscribe and share. That's how you learn. And and and Staying on on that topic, we we we talked literally came up with this topic. Forty five seconds ago. actually I take that back. We're at a minute thirty, so about a about two minutes ago. So we're gonna talk about being instructors. We're we're they're just now mailing out the FDIC stuff for people. but all of us have been instructors for for we can say well over a decade. some of us a little longer than others, but we wanna talk about, you know, what it is to be a fire service instructor. what we've learned along the way, the good and the bad. And then you know, what you can do, the people that are listening to up your game to become, you know, a fire service instructor in your jurisdiction and then eventually move out and t onto the national stage and maybe even hooking up with a a private organization like the three of us do. and then what what we do the the information that we can pass on to you so you can w in our eyes be better. because that's what it's all about. In order to be a good fire service instructor, like it's like being a firefighter, it's like being an officer or chief officer. You gotta train. You gotta train at your craft. If you're putting together a presentation, you don't just put it together and then say, Hey, I want to go teach this. It it takes, you know, a couple of months to to to get it down and you know, editing RJ Sam, you both have written programs before. How many times you you put it in, you got slides, and you're adding another slide, taking away a slide, adding a different video. because you want it to come off correct and you want to be able to to speak to it. So RJ, I'll start with you. talk a little bit about, you know, first of all, how you got into wanting to be an instructor. I know your fire one instructor, Montgomery County, was absolutely friggin' phenomenal and that really set you sets you on the course. and then, you know, what you've done in your training academy, what you've done at your your volley house, what you've done in your career house, what you've done at our training academy in Frederick and and then how we've moved on into the national stage. And then when he's done, toss the baton to Sam, same thing. Man, I it's funny you you you you asked me that. I was literally having this conversation the other day at at Rockville volley house. what what got what got me in the into teaching and you know it It was a cool conversation 'cause it brought back a lot of memories and then it it it generated this conversation at the kitchen table. and before I get into it, it actually took us down this road. And then while we were going down this road, I realized some of the people at the kitchen table were blessed to meet this person. Some of the people at the kitchen table never had a chance to meet this person. And so it it then opened up a whole nother conversation, about the person itself. And so, you know, I I credit a lot of me being a fire service instructor to one my father but to Mick McKenzie. I got at I I I got the experience as a young kid to travel with Mick and and be a part of seeing what the fire service instruction was like outside of the fire department. as a living of Rockville, I got to travel to Pennsylvania As a young kid, and my job was nothing more than to carry stuff, help stuff, and just literally be his assistant. and so I am so blessed that I had that opportunity as a young guy to be able to to do that. And and it was so something so simple. It was and and you know, I mean y'all know Mick. It w with Mick, everything was spurred a moment. You know, hey, by the way, tomorrow I'm gonna go do this, I want you to come, kinda shit. And so like, you know, I I I got to to to be able to see what it was like to do outside instruction. And you know, for me it was such a motivator to see somebody who was just down to earth, talk to people like regular firemen and everybody, even if you weren't, was a fireman to me. and and that that level of passion and that level of caring motivated me to to one just learn from him, but man, I wanted to be like that guy so bad. And I wanted to just be able to share my knowledge, when I got it with other people. and then so fast forward maybe three to five years, you know, I was living in the firehouse and I felt that as a living of Rockville, Rockville running fifteen thousand calls a year. and as a guy who lived in the firehouse, who each person who lives in the firehouse individually runs between, you know, thirteen to fifteen hundred calls a person, I felt like I was gaining experience. and I I felt like I was doing so many things right, but I was also doing so many things wrong. because I was able to run so many calls, you know, I made a mistake on a call this morning and I was able to fix it by this afternoon. So you know I think that for me, it all started with the the person who motivated me to to want to teach and just seeing how he did it in such a cool fashion. and everybody to him was was important and everybody they listened when he when when he spoke and and and for me that was just such a a motivating thing and that is what got me involved. You know, I watched my dad. My dad was big in Southfire and teaching guys and girls the job and how he cared for everybody and my dad was a senior man. And so my dad being a senior man, you know, when he spoke, people listened. And, you know, that was one of those things for me that just it it motivated me to want to give people more outside of what the standard is for the department that they came from. Yeah, I mean I you know, Dave, honestly you were definitely one of the people that kind of made me strongly consider getting in becoming a an academy instructor for our department. you were definitely one of those people I looked up to and saw doing it, having a lot of fun with it, seeing the benefit of it, you know, as far as developing your career and not, you know, developing your career, putting something on your resume, but going, you know, when you're going through the same rote motions they're going through with with everything, you're gonna be really good at the, you know, all you all you gotta do is add tactics on and you're solid. It it kept you f it kept you fresh, you know, donning your SCBA, breathing breathing air, you know. controlling your air, that kind of stuff. It's so many opportunities to do that as an instructor with your students. it it it made you a sharper firefighter. So for all and I, you know, I came, I I was in Teach for America before I came to the fire department and taught in DC public schools. So I have a teaching background. So I say all three of those things, like looking up to guys like Dave, realizing how much of a benefit it was to my career and to being a firefighter. And then, you know, Whatever my third one was, whatever. man. I slept zero hours last night at the firehouse, zero point zero. I like, you know, with with what RJ said, you know, I've known I knew Mick for a long, long time. And as knowledgeable as he was, you know, I I'm still angry with him. gone way too soon, but but angry because I had asked him so many times, Hey man, put a lot of this stuff down in writing. you know, just put it down on a word document and give it to me. All the things that you know about rescue squads and truck company operations and roof work and search and rescue and and and ATR stuff and and yeah yeah Polly yeah yeah yeah yeah and it never happened and you know but he died and that just went with him. So, you know, a lot of people either they either liked him or they didn't like him. I mean I love Mick taught me a lot even you know when I became, you know, a captain, still, you know, running with him down at Kentland, you just learn something every day. And he was so calm. You know, he was never never screaming and carrying on. He was very calm. And and then if you if you did something, you know, it didn't quite go well, he'd pull everybody aside and they talk about it and he'd show you, you know, hey, in the future we're gonna do this, you know, you know, but don't don't make this mistake again, type of thing. But what really got me into teaching and it was I felt like it was the next thing I had to do because I really liked doing stuff in the fire department. And and I got my level two instructor in Maryland. We did the skills weekend at Miffrey and got our my MICRB state certification. And all I wanted to do was teach at the academy. And I kept getting roadblocks and when I got promoted lieutenant and I went to station six, Mike Close was my captain and Mike Close was was one of the lead instructors for recruit class. And it was I told Mike, I said, Yeah, I got my level two, I got my MHDRB. I said, I really to teach. I said, but I just keep running into roadblocks with the captain was there. And he said, Hey so show up tomorrow morning with me and you know, we'll we'll see what's going on. So Monday morning we got off work, showered, went up there, got up to the training academy. Mike went up to the captain and says Dave's teaching up here today. He's gonna be teaching with us for the rest of this recruit class. And and that's how it's and then you know, the whole time you know, I just taught with with Mike and and started getting better at honing my skills and and you know, recognizing that we needed to teach them, you know, when you teach a ca academy class, you have to teach them away. And it has to be consistent. And that was the hardest thing because we pull lines you know, at the firehouse many different ways depending on what situation you're you're faced with. In the academy, we can only show them a way because it's we're we have limited time with them. You go out in the field when doing their probation, that's when they learn how to, you know, hone their skills and learn other ways to do things. but we had to set the standard to be able to tea to to test them. So at honed my skills of learning, you know, the academy way to teach stuff and and that made me better because we had to be consistent. So when the next group that rotated to you, you needed to make sure that if you're doing hose lines that day, when they had hose lines the day before and you weren't there, it's the same. And the one thing that I'll always tell you about recruits is when you didn't teach them the way somebody taught them yesterday, that's the first thing out of mouth. That's not what they showed us yesterday. Yep, they'll dime you out. Yeah. And then it's like all right, hold on. And then it's usually bar And you gotta go yell at him because he taught him wrong. I remember those I remember those those I remember the memos, you know, the the emails, you know. Hey man, this is we don't we don't do this, we do that, whatever. Yeah, they they set a standard and I taught f from the time I was a lieutenant to a captain and they said, you know, once you make battalion chief, they you know, you you it was n it was an unwritten rule. You just didn't teach up there anymore. You they wanted you to teach other stuff. And when Mike Close made battalion chief, he's like That ain't a rule. I'm gonna still teach. So he kind of set the standard with that too. Is hey, battalion chiefs, we're gonna teach. We weren't making overtime. We were only making straight time. But and then we we told at the time it was Clemens was the was the chief in charge of training. We're like, hey man, you hire the battalion chiefs back, you're hiring us at straight time, not time and a half. We were a cost savings. Exactly. But so and and and I just never put that wand down. I just loved Teaching, like when I was at Rockville with RJ, it was just like one day out of the the spur of the moment. It was like back in 09, the beginning of 09. He comes up to me and he says, Hey, I'm gonna start a training company. You wanna teach with me? And I'm like, Okay. And that's how it started. And then next thing you know, Capital Fire was born and loved every second of it. And then just the networking and the people we meet and the things that we learn, and being able to teach on a national stage. It's just, you know, and it's not all about You know, people recognizing and knowing who you are. It's that you've got knowledge and people are listening to you and then then they're taking that back, shaking the hand, th thanks for teaching and all that stuff. That's a good feeling. I know that they're getting something out of it. And that's what keeps me going to this day, still teaching. Yeah, you talked about levels, right? and and there are different levels to it. And and with the levels, you gotta know where you're at in the level. You know, when I the way I teach at our academy is different than the way I teach in the company, which is different than the way I teach when we're out in the street. And and and on top of that, with the levels, you gotta know how how to deliver on that level. Frederick County's Fire Frederick County Fires Training Academy is it's a different level, man. I I'm our academy is very strict. we we run it like a paramilitary and when I say paramilitary I I I put more emphasis on the military part. But that's how we conduct business. You know, I I do I got called in the chief's office some years ago. I I I'll never forget when he called me up in the office, he said, Hey, come in, close the door. Come in and close the door, what's up, Chief? Hey, it was brought to my attention. You called a recruitment, bro. And I said, Chief, that's how I talk. I talked to everybody like firemen. He said, Well, we don't do that here. And I said, Well, if you don't if if if you can't do that here, I can't be here. And and he said, You know what? We're good. And close the door. So You know, like a and and again, you know, you do have to have that regiment of some kind of paramilitary environment, right? We're bringing in especially now, right? We're bringing in people in the fire service who are now eighteen years old. And so these people who are coming in, this is their first job, this is their first experience to order, this is their first experience to having a regiment. So you do have to have that that formality. And and you guys know Trevor as a as a capital instructor. Trevor and us the way we teach in the street is different than the way we see Trevor at the academy. When I see Trevor at the academy, we c we hardly talk. We do one of these head nods. The nod. Yep. The nod. Squad nod. And that's just how we that's how it goes, because Trevor is in Trevor's in marine mode. RJ's in chill and you know, have a good time. Let's like we can learn in this kind of fashion mode and and they that don't work. That don't work for them. and so there's different different levels to it, you know what I RJ, you know what you did with that when you stood your ground. You you you basically stood on your principle that you're your most genuine self to these folks. And that is so huge in leadership, man. So be proud of yourself for that. wait, that that story's pretty awesome, man, that you did that, you know? Like, no, I'm not changing who I am. I I'm not. I'm not. But I also understand how they conduct business. and because here's the deal, right? every Everybody has their own style of teaching. But everybody still has to conform to some kind of way that the organization is going to run their system. Right. If not, it is a free-for-all, right? Sure. That's the professionalism. That's the professional side of it. 100%, right? And so, like, you know, there are there are orders that we have to have. But with that being said, I always I always go back to how I felt when I sat in that seat. Right. You know, you you how when you sat in that seat and you saw that particular instructor, you're like, man, that guy's here today, we gotta be on on our shit. man, that guy's here today. We're gonna have we're gonna have a good day today. We're gonna laugh. We're gonna you know what I mean? Like and and you want that you wanna have that balance, right? You wanna have that balance of the students saying, man, that guy's here today, we we we gotta be on top of our stuff as always. That guy is here today, we we also are gonna have a good time. And I wanna be That one. Not everybody could be that one, but I want to be that one where the guys are like, hey, we're gonna have a good time today. We're gonna laugh, but we're also still gonna learn. which again is completely different structure than we do in in in the firehouse. How we teach in the firehouse is all right, guys. We understood the base level of instruction that we were given, or you were given in the academy. Now here's how we expand upon that, and this is what you need to know out here in these streets. In this particular area that we work, you know, there you gotta have a sense of street knowledge. You in this particular area that we work, you gotta have your head on a swivel. You gotta understand that these are how we stretch lines to these particular structures that we have that we do not have on the property at the academy. So you gotta understand that you know there's a level of this is how we teach in the company, you know. I mean, this is how we teach to what is conducive to our area. Which is different from when we all travel across the country now to teach and we have to share a wide range of instruction to hey, these are options because we're not really familiar with what you have. So these are all different options for what might work in your area or what you may encounter. Pick which one works best for you. and if you like this one, this is how you can do it better. If you like that one, this is how you can do it better. So so Dave, to your point, you know, there are different levels of of this and you have to know your level and you have to know what works best for the level you're at and where you're at. I think, you know, w when we talked about levels, you know, you talked about Frederick's recruit class and you know, taught Montgomery's recruit class for many, many years. I know Frederick's class is pretty tough. It's probably one of the tougher ones in the state. and and I hear them guys screaming and carrying on running past my office in the morning, you know doing their their cadences and and singing and carrying on. But you know, but being at headquarters, you know, you can look out and see them on the on the grill on the drill grounds and and they're working hard. And through the heat, through the rain, through the snow, it doesn't matter. They're working hard. and like you said, RJ, a lot of these folks that are coming in, they're they're 18 years old. Not only this this might be the first time they've ever been in a fire in in the fire department, This is probably the first discipline they've ever had. Their parents probably never yelled at them when they were young. now and now it's it's a whole different world of of you know of of the way that we're talking to them. We're talking to them like adults, but we're also talking to them, and if you screw up here, you can get hurt. And if you screw up here and we don't correct that, and you take that back out in the field, you can get killed. And and I think a a lot of the people that are coming in, they've never had their parents yell at them. it's funny, we teach the juniors that come into to Sykesville and these are thirteen to sixteen year olds. Once they turn sixteen, they have to transition over to a senior member. And I remember taking them out back and they're not allowed to use power tools, so I took a a couple of axes and some sledgehammers out there and I said, We're gonna, you know, beat on these logs and these pallets and watching these kids with the hand tools in their hand, they had never swung an axe or a sledgehammer or anything in their life. So it's like having to teach them how to do that stuff. When I was their age, I was splitting wood because that's how we heated our house. so you're getting all different people, some people that come with experience, some that don't, and you gotta find that that level in between. And and I think that all academies do a good job is we're treating everybody equal and we're gonna bring you Down to this level, and then we're all going to come up together. And what I've told people that's you know that come through the training academy, they're like, well, I already have my EMT. Do I have to sit through EMT? I said, absolutely. I said, but here's the thing. You're coming with knowledge. And I said, what a dick you would be if you didn't help the guy next to you that was struggling who's doing this for the first time. Help him out. Matter of fact, the instructors would really like to see that because there's only so much of us. If you've got something to help, you help. And and and so yeah, you might have to take the EMT class again, but you're coming with knowledge that you can help other people to bring them along. so I think that, you know, when we're coming with with those levels at the training academy, like you say, it's quasi military. But when we're teaching out on the road, we like to have a good time because they're paying for us to be there. And we wanna make sure that not only do they have a good time, they walk away that they've learned something and not like Well, we learned something, but all those guys were a bunch of dicks. You know, we don't wanna walk in like that. But th and I think that we've really made that balance of of seriousness and joking to the pack fact that they're paying to be here and we've had people that that that give us a hundred percent and we've had people that give us about thirty two percent. And you know, at the end of the day we kind of look at each other and we we compare notes and it's like they're paying to be here. And if they're not gonna give us a hundred percent, we're gonna make sure nobody's gonna get hurt. But that's what they're gonna they're gonna get out what they put into it. So we talk about those levels. We tr we tr we teach differently depending upon our audience. The the one thing I wanna talk about and it's funny, and I was literally looking at Sam when Dave and you were saying this, but each instructor that we have in their own way pours into each person. and and and brings their own level of personality to it, right? you know, with with like and I'm literally I was looking at Sam as you were talking. You know, Sam has that that level of laughing and and funniness, but also that level of seriousness. And then I got to thinking about all twenty capital instructors that we have. And we have guys from New York City, guys from Virginia, guys from Connecticut, and everybody comes from a different place, but not one person comes with ego. And so Man, really humble guys across the board, man. It's it's beautiful. It really is beautiful. Yeah, absolutely, man. Absolutely. And that humbleness is what is important of an instructor. being able to be humble, being able to to overlook it doesn't matter where you come from, it's what you're investing in the person. and and and that every single one of our guys, even even me, I learned from being around you guys and and and and and so much, you know, just level of passion. each person has. Nobody cares where you come from. It's what what you want to pour into the person and everybody I mean, you know, y I we were just coming back from Pittsburgh when we talked about the Jimmy Ellis. You know, we get back in the hotel. It's seven o'clock at night and everybody's like, Where y'all been? It's like, hey man, they didn't want to they didn't want to leave, you know, and we couldn't we couldn't leave because they wanted to leave and then and and I I I'll stay till the till the street lights come on if people are engaged in care and wanna care. And I think it's it's all in how we deliver the message. And we deliver the message like like you said, Sam, with with humbleness, with passion and pride. You know, that that is one hundred percent what what it's all about is is pouring into the student. Yeah, we're a tremendous amount of value we had with with the classes and then also we had for a pretty good good long streak, I think we gave them a lot of good night entertainment. Especially with my antics. I wasn't gonna bring it up. I wasn't gonna bring it up. Or Dave and R J. I tell you what, That was so nine. You guys you guys I think at some at at for a few years probably you could have claimed me on your taxes as a dependent. That was so nine. Man. What a fun time. It's always been fun wherever we go. We have a good time. I I enjoy meeting, you know, new people and you know, hey, where are you from? How many calls y'all run? And it doesn't matter if they run, you know, you know, a hundred calls a year, if they run ten thousand calls a year. they're there because they wanna make themselves better. And and the cool thing is is you know, even when we teach at FDIC and we talk to people and you know, in break when we take breaks or at the end of the the class where they come up and they talk to us about other things. We learn things from the students. And we're very open with them. It we we tell them, you know, hey, we learn from you just as much as you learn from us. You know, I know when we do our or hot training RJ, you always tell everybody, you know, just because we're standing up here teaching you doesn't mean we're any better than you. You guys bring a lot to the table and we learn from you guys based on your experience. Hey, you may only get out with two people on a fire engine and you might have to put up a house fire out with two people on a fire engine. You know, where where the rest of us, we might be doing it with three, four, five, and six. So you bring things to the table, shortcuts that you've learned that that that help you And and we take that stuff and and we apply it to our our stuff. And then we tell them we're not gonna give you credit for it, we're gonna claim it as our own. But we we definitely learn from the students and and getting back to what the two of you said, that's that humility. You know, I'm not any better than you just because I'm teaching you. I learn from you guys, I learn from our instructors, I learn from the students as well, because they bring something to the table. and areas that they run that we don't necessarily run. so I think that it's important as an instructor to be humble and listen as well as teach. You know, hear what your students are saying, especially if they're paying you to be there, because not only do they want to bring their experiences to the table and and and they I think in the back of their mind they want you to evaluate what they do. Tell them that they're doing it right or they're doing good or b you know, based on what you have, you're making the best of what you got. but we take something away from that. So humility is huge. For sure. And we're all eat up with it. You know, every everybody's in you know, that whole into the job, it's become pretty cliched, but it's still I think it still holds true. I think we're all into the job and really eat up with it, love it, eat, sleep, breathe it. And you know, that g that that that translates well in the training environment, right? And you know, talk talking about students, think about think about Nick. Nick was the s remember when Nick was so he took one of our classes. I remember, I think we all talked about it. We're like, that guy's a rock star. And then and now he teaches, you know, you know, he teaches with us, which is amazing, right? And and you know, you you talk about you know the the students and what you know what they bring to the table. And being able like I said, being able to to to listen to what they're saying, that that hones our classes as well. And a lot of times, you know, you you get those phone calls, RJ, hey, we want you to come out and teach a command class, but you know, we only do this as opposed to this. So we we've done our best to tailor our classes to to their particular area. And like I said earlier, we're not gonna come out and t and teach engine and truck operations with six people when you're only doing it with three. It doesn't make any sense. But I think that you know, being able to adapt that way and and rewrite some of our our classes to give the people that want us to come out and teach what they want, that's important. And I think that yeah, and I I think that that in order to be a good instructor, you gotta be able to deliver and you gotta be knowledgeable. Cause one of the things they'll know right away is if you're faking it or if you don't know something, they will know right away you don't know something. They may not say anything to you. But you're gonna lose that respect pretty quick. Yeah, it's palpable when it happens. Yeah, Dave, you talk about being able to deliver, and and I wanna I wanna touch on that a little bit because, you know, I I I do hear this a lot in younger instructors and I actually have this on one of the things I wanted to talk about. But I I do hear a a lot when people say, I'm not comfortable talking in front of people, or I only like doing hands on training and and not lectures. And and I for me, it doesn't sit well with me. Because here's the deal, right? When you decide that you wanna teach, you gotta be comfortable talking to people, right? And and you gotta be comfortable doing a lecture and you gotta be comfortable doing hands-on. Right? There's there I think that's what makes a good instructor. And if you're not comfortable with that, I know some people will say, like you you should only be comfortable teaching what you're what you're comfortable. Yes and no, right? You if you cannot talk in front of people, you cannot be an instructor. That's the whole that's the whole mission. You're supposed to be able to deliver information. Now, if you're not comfortable teaching a particular subject, I think that you gotta be knowledgeable in the subject of course and you find your your niche, right, and and what you're comfortable teaching. but I think you should be well versed in being able to speak in front of people, be it doing a lecture or a hands on. I think that's what makes you a a good instructor. And not to say that you have to start on the on a big stage teaching in front of hundreds of people. something as small as doing a a station level drill in front of five or eight people, and and something as simple as, you know, a laptop hooked up to a TV and the in the firehouse, that that could be your start. You know, I'll tell you, last week. I did a dry run of my presentation that I'm getting ready to do next week at firemanship in in in Alexandria. I did it in the firehouse. I I told myself and that's the second time in all of my years of teaching I did a presentation in the firehouse that was something that I had to do outside. And you know, I said to myself, If I can't teach this in front of people that I work with, how can I go out and teach this in front of people that I don't? and and and you know the presentation for me, I I I I I said to myself, you know, these guys and these girls that I work with, they gotta they gotta believe in me. and and I know they do. And so, you know, how could I go out and share this information with everybody but the people I work with? And and on top of that, these are where I this is where I run my calls. This is where I gain my experience as an officer, I gained my experience as a firefighter. and and so You know, I I hate that saying you can't be a prophet in your own land, you know what I'm saying? That shit drives me nuts because you can, you absolutely can. you just have to be willing to be forthcoming. And also, what's to say if you can't deliver in front of the people you work with, but you can deliver in front of other people. You know what I'm saying? So, just just it's one of those things that if you want to be an instructor, you have to be able to deliver in both avenues, whether it's a lecture or hands on. And it doesn't, like I said, it doesn't have to be so grandioso, but it could be something as small and it's just from there you build confidence. last year, one of my buddies from Bears of the Youth, Lee Humphreys, great, great guy, right? He he was one of those guys. he never liked speaking in in in that forum of of of an auditorium. And you know, one time I sat down with him, I said, Lee, you're a great instructor. You have a lot of knowledge about ladders. And you do it very well on the drill ground. But what makes you a great instructor is when you can show it to somebody on a screen, explain it well in the classroom, because not everybody is a hands-on type of person. Some people do their best work in the classroom. So you gotta be able to reach people in both ways. And you know, I connected with him and and Hank connected with him, and he said, You're right, man. I I really want to to do that. And and so You know, I will never forget sitting in the hotel lobby and he delivered his presentation in front of all of the other instructors and knocked it out of the park. Knocked it out of the park. And and that was so so much on a small scale. We were sitting in the lobby at the hotel and he hooked his laptop up to the the TV that they play the news on every morning. They he hooked his laptop up to the TV. And did it on such a small scale. And then literally months later, he's delivering that presentation at Metro Atlanta Fire Metro Atlanta Fire Conference in Atlanta. And then now he's, you know, he's going to these different places. And and and, you know, for a guy who who at first was like, I I don't like teaching in that lecture arena. You know, what makes you a well rounded instructor is being able to deliver on every avenue that you can reach the students. Again, some students they they do not want to do hands on. They want to sit in the classroom. They want to take that information. They want to process it. And then they want to go back to their department and try it. Versus some people like, I wanna take that information and let's go right outside and I'm gonna try it right now. So you know, being able to to to to reach people as an instructor, you have to be comfortable doing doing it all. I think one of the things that you hit that That I want to talk a little bit about. We talked about it offline. But the delivery part. And one of the things we talked about is the way you talk to the students. you know, there's people out there that that that they think that they're these, you know, marine drill instructors, but they've never been in the military and they're yelling and screaming at, you know, mostly you see this at at recruit classes and things like that, just for no reason. You know, just to yell and scream and you know, most adult learners, what we we had talked about offline is the moment you start screaming in someone's face, they're tuning you out and they're not even hearing what you're saying anymore. Yeah. And and I don't think there's there's one of the few places things that I can say that there's no place in the fire service is for you to be yelling and screaming at students because right away you've shown that you have no control over your emotions. So if you're like that to new people in the fire service, what are you like in the station? Especially if you're an officer. and if you're that angry or or over trivial things, these guy these guys and girls are learning. You're there to teach. They are learning. And you know, if they get a few things wrong, they get it wrong. But, you know, I just don't I've never bought into the yelling and screaming, and I've worked with instructors that feel that they have to yell and scream at everybody and and cuss at the students and things like that. But I that was never my approach. It was more of you know. Let's go over this again or no, that wasn't right. Let's go over this again. And hey, let me demonstrate for you so you can see it. And now let's go over it. But you know, our job is to make sure that they walk away, whether we're teaching a recruit class or we're teaching for a bunch of companies, whether they're volunteer companies or whatever, or we're teaching a management class for people that already have time in, that yelling and screaming and carrying on and just being an asshole, it doesn't work. It never worked for me. And maybe some people out there are like, well, you gotta yell at them, you gotta let them know who's in charge. Believe me, they know who's in charge, you know. They're there to learn, they're there to to move forward in their career. That's just my thing. I mean, I'll throw it to you, RJ. I mean, there's a time and a place for everything, but I've just never found the time or place to yell at somebody. No, I I I agree with you. and I a few weeks ago, was doing a force buncher drill in the station with the guys. and one of the things I've been slowly working into my trainings with with my guys at work is how to teach people in the moment in a of a call. and you know it's hard because some of these guys feel like they're not teachers because they're young. And I am slowly trying to find that balance between hey being humble, sharing your knowledge, being able to teach somebody else, but still not being a an asshole. and so one of the things I was teaching these guys, literally, I was just a couple weeks ago, teaching these guys how to correct somebody in the moment of a call and not be an asshole. And how to co do it in a cool way, right? So one of the things I and the perfect the the most perfect example I gave them was, hey man, you're getting ready to force a door. And somebody puts the bar in the door backwards. We can't just go with that, right? Because now we're gonna waste time that's We're gonna be sending the bar in in the wrong direction. and you know it's wrong, and we're not gonna go with this, right? But how do you in a cool fashion say, hey man, flip your bar around? Or, you know, hey, switch that up real quick. Just in a cool, kind of calm, collective way, not like, yo, idiot, flip your bar around, you got it in the wrong. You know what I mean? You lost them. You lost them. You lost them. And and not only that. People remember how you come at them, especially adults. And and you know, kid, think about it like this. I like to I I always try to be the coolest cat and the calmest cat. Think about how you how you remember that moment. Even though it's a working fire, even though emotions are high and everybody's up here, that guy or girl that's like, hey man, it's good. Relax, calm down, just flip your bar around. Right? In the moment. And if you can keep your cool in that moment to teach somebody in that moment, people never ever forget that. And I'll tell you one of the things, God man, I I I don't want to spoil it, but that's one of the quotes that I I I sent in to Dave McGlenn for his book is that quote from Maya Angelou about how people remember how you make them feel. You can tell them anything you want, and people sometimes will remember that. But how you made them feel is what they'll remember the most. And that is literally even if the place is burning down around you, how you can make them feel in the moment of them being able to make a mistake. And I'll tell you, peop people never forget that. and so, you know, Dave, I I I I tell you, you know, my biggest thing is making sure people now there again, there's always a time and a place for absolutely everything. But If it's not going to be detrimental to the to the operation, take the time and teach people. And and one of the things I've been I've been slowly working in with my guys is how to correct somebody when they're wrong. Even though you're a two-year guy, a three-year guy, you do spend a lot of time training. You know, my guys spend a lot of time training. Every day there's three, two, three different drills going on. And there's also some drills I don't even know about that are going on. But how to Take that person who's doing more than the other guy. There's some people aren't drilling at all. How do you take that time to correct somebody in the moment, still remain humble, still teach, and still get your point across? There there's that line that you can you can slowly slowly inject that into teaching people how to teach that to other people. as an adult, I guess, develops from us having messed up and having had maybe an example of somebody berating you for it that that, you know, did you no good. And then one, you know, the really good example, somebody that was really calm, cool, collected, was made you feel good afterwards. Hey man, we you you know, you did this and and look, the fire's out, man. Strong work. And man, you walked out there, you know, really think thinking you thinking you're the man because you know they you but but you had messed up or not really messed up, but you know what I mean. You had you were about to do something that was not gonna bode well for the outcome of the incident. And you you get that correction. As long as that correction happens with some positive reinforcement, man, it y you can hit a home run with it. but yeah, it it's all back about humility because we've we've all been there and and yeah, it's important. It's important to pass that along. You know, even when we're teaching the command stuff, I tell everybody I said we trust but verify. you know, the way you say something on the radio can, you know, you could sound like a total jerk on the radio versus the way you would say it to get the information about and would actually sound pretty cool. And one of the examples I always use is as a command officer, you if you want to know how the searches are going, you could just say like you know, command to, you know, rescue squad, whatever. what what did you do on the searches? Did you do did you do the search on on the on the on the first floor? You know, now it sounds like you're accusing them of not doing their job as opposed to come back and say, Commander Rescue Squad One, when you did your primary search on the first floor, what was the outcome? And if they didn't do it, they're gonna come back to you and say, Chief, we're just finishing up now. Give me a minute. That just means that, hey, we forgot to do it, so we're gonna do it real quick. And now you're not accusing them. And then you'll be like, okay, and then they're gonna come back to you. Hey, rescue squad, I'm gonna command. first floor was all clear. Message received. And and you didn't come across the radio sound like a jerk. And and I I I do that, especially here where I volunteer. I I try not to be an asshole on the radio. sometimes it's hard because you're trying to get information. that that they should have told you that they didn't tell you. But you know, perfect example today. We we ha we had a working fire today at the volley house and I was actually on the line with the the career officer. Got a little short and fire in the kitchen, got up in the attic, and you know the the we said hey we need to get the the ceiling that opened up in here and I didn't have a hook because I'm helping him get the line in So there was a kid behind me from another company. I said, Hey man, and he's standing up. I was like, You got a hook? He's like, Yeah, I said, All right, let's go ahead and open up these ceilings. So he starts behind us open ceilings and dropping shit down on our head. And then I'm like, hey, bro, I said, do me a favor. I said, walk, crawl around to us and get up front. We really need you to do this up front so we can see if we got any fire in front of us. He goes, okay. And, you know, instead of turning around saying, Hey, asshole, you're you're pulling shit down on top of us. You're supposed to be in front, you know. And it was one of those, he went up there. Pulled some ceilings, had some fire in the attic, and put put the fire out. So I think it it all comes down to every moment is a teaching moment. And how you conduct yourself in that moment, you're either going to get through to them or you're not going to get through to them, and they're just going to view you as some asshole that's that does nothing but yelling. So it's it's all in how how you phrase it. And and and I know we've said that a thousand times at Capitol Fire. Every moment is a teachable moment. For us and and for the students. And and l to get back to what you said, RJ, about, you know, you put the halligan bar in wrong. You know, instead of like, hey man, turn the halligan bar around. It could have been like, Hey, look, if this was a door that was an outward swinging door, we'd put the halligan bar the way you had. But don't forget, it's an inward swinging door, so make sure you the bevel to the door. Done. Hey bud, flip it around. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's just that that's simple. And and and I I and I tell the guys like, Hey man, you can be you can be cool about it, right? You can you can You can tap that brother on the shoulder or the sister on the shoulder and say, Hey, flip that around real quick. You know what I mean? It it's it's all good. Relax. No worries. Relax. You know? and and and that's that's huge, man, because again, you know, I I stand on that. I stand on that people remember how you make them feel. and and you know, that is one of the things that I think is important, right? The the fact that you as an instructor are willing to take that extra time, even though it's biting into your time, to take that time to to help that That student. you know, and especially it it it shouldn't even be hard, right? If if you you can read a student, right? And and and one of the things that, you know, I love about outside teaching, conferences, expos, you know, conventions, that kind of thing, people are investing money to be there. And most of these conferences that we teach at, all of these I call them microconferences, the smaller conferences that pop up in each state. These conferences are are now affordable. So you know, people are putting up their own money. You know, the two, three, four hundred, five hundred dollar conferences, you know, these people are paying their own way to go there. So, you know, if they're paying their own way to go there, they're going they have they're invested in it. And so when they come to the training, they're they're invested in the training. They want to get their money's worth. And so, you know, they're going to want to not leave until they got it right. They're gonna want to make sure they get that extra rep. They want to take the information and apply it to some kind of scenario, right? Which is why I love giving students skills in the morning, in the early afternoon, and giving them scenarios at the end of the day so that they can actually apply it to a scenario, a situation so they they can see it unfold. Put it all together. Yeah, absolutely. Putting it all together because that's what drives home. That's what drives home the point. Right. You can tell you can tell everything you want to tell them, but the until they get to see it in the situation, it's that's what ties it all together. And and and being able to have it tie together for for students is what inst instructors need to make sure that they do. They need to make sure that they have the ability to to tie it all together so that they can actually see see it in use. I I think that you know, we we talk about the conferences, you know, with the Key City Fire Conference in our backyard. that thing has gotten bigger every year. And the reason is is because we're giving them information and we're just down to earth guys giving the information. We don't bring any huge when I say we, you guys don't bring any huge big name, you know, instructors. Sometimes we get them, but a lot of them are local dudes that are just trying to to figure out their own way to move on to the next level. And they give great classes and people they come back with bigger and bigger crowds because they're there to learn and we're teaching them and it's there's no ego. And it's a good day. And and they get a lot out of it with the the hot scenarios, with the the skills and then the scenarios towards the end. And and that's why that conference is is continually growing. Because it's not about bringing the the big name, high dollar instructors that are there. It's bringing in quality instructors that believe in what they're teaching and that shows when you teach and you believe what you're teaching and you enjoy teaching what you're teaching, well the the the students get a lot out of that as well. They're they're all in. At that point they're all in. And It's getting bigger and bigger. And and and and and sprinkled in with some well known instructors. There are a lot of well known instructors who are humble, who are are good, who who are there for the right reason, right? and and and and that that is what helps, right? With that being said, hey, we talk about this conference. This year we had forty one people, forty one people that work for Frederick County Fire Rescue. And one who volunteers at Frederick County Fire Rescue helped that conference. And so what ended up happening was, you know, you get, you know, let's say ten the guys and girls who are helping these instructors put together these props or who are helping carry stuff out of trailers, who are helping lay out the hose packages. You know, that is time where these young these young people are having that interaction with the instructors while they're helping to set this up. Hey, why is this like this? And the instructor says, well, you know, this is we're setting this up for this particular reason for these students to be able to do XYZ. Now you have these young guys and girls who are learning from the instructors who are now I I I tell you, I I would say two years ago at the Key City Fire Conference, we sparked an interest in people that last year now we have different guys who want to be instructors. Different people who are now wanting to go to Miffry to become instructors, that are now doing practice teaching. in Frederick County and now some of them actually are instructors in Frederick County. You know that that spark that you you give them from just off of something so small as like the Key City Fire Conference, something so small as, you know, helping to set up props, that kind of thing. that's what drives people that was me. That was me. I was carrying mixed stuff around and and and and it drives that that spark in people because they want to see they want they want to do it because of how you Injected it into them. So we got about five minutes left, but I want to go around before we give our our final thoughts and and stuff like that, I want to talk start with you, Sam, and then to RJ. What advice could you give somebody who wants to become an instructor? young, or maybe not so young, but working on getting their state certification wherever wherever they be, wherever they are. Sam, what advice would you give somebody who who wants to do this? find out what how Where people start, you know, you see where they are, you're like, I want to be there. Okay, well, how did they get there? All right, well, you know, for us, when I was coming up as an instructor in in Montgomery, it was to become a driver's trainer and then you adjuncted with the volunteers, then you taught a volunteer class to get your I C R B, and then you progressed on to the career recruits. So I started right from there. But you know, you think about the other agencies. I think think of like my home my home agency, my home department, or the Eastern Shore in general, guys would stoke. They they'd come and help the instructors on burn nights stoke or you know, their extra set of hands pumping the rig or whatever. And that was a in for them. You know, so there's always an in. Find out what the in is and and start working towards it. get get yourself signed up, put yourself in, you know, if it requires a transfer, get yourself where you need to g to be to set yourself up for success and and get on that b get in on that bottom floor and embrace it. Not to hijack the the time, but I have a couple things. and and here and here's what they are, right? one, you can be a prophet in your own land. take that time to share that information with your own people. learn from your people, share the information with your people. If you're not comfortable doing it for your own people, you you you shouldn't you can't be comfortable going out and teaching it outside of outside of your outside of your land. The other thing I wanted to say is find a subject you're passionate about, right? you know, there are the fire service has so much skills to talk about. Which one of those do you like the most? Nobody's an expert in anything, right? I I love forcible entry, but I'm not an expert in it. I found a subject that I like the most, and that's one of those skills that I I and then all of these skills continue to change over the years, right? So you gotta find a subject that you're passionate about, something that you wanna keep investing in to learn more about and keep up with so you can share that with with with other people. Find your own way to deliver it. Right? There's nothing that we teach that we invented. The fire service has been around for so long. There's nothing that we've invented. But there's there's cool ways that we found to deliver the subject. Find your own way to deliver the subject that you're passionate about. I have two more. Talk about your mistakes. We've all made mistakes in the fire service. What makes us good is being able to publicly share those mistakes. Being able to say, hey, I I've messed this up. This is why I'm good at it. I'm good at this particular skill because I was bad at it before. And I've made these mistakes and I've learned from these mistakes to be able to say, Don't do this, do this. And here's the reason why. In the last one, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I think it's important that we beat the dead horse. Be humble. Be humble. to the fact that yes, somebody gave you an opportunity to be an instructor. Be humble about it. You know, you're not better than anybody because you're instructor, but the fact that you had the opportunity to be an instructor, the fact that you have the opportunity to share that information, that knowledge, those mistakes with people, be humble. Those are my five things. Yeah, well there's you all took everything that I was gonna say, but I wouldn't have had it any other way. One of the things that I want to add on to that is make sure you're getting into it for the right reason. Don't just get into it because you want to make overtime, you wanna make money or whatever. make sure that you're becoming an instructor for the right reason. if you'd be willing to teach a class for free, which we've all done, because you are passionate about delivering the message, then you're in it for the right reason. And and like RJ said, find something that you really enjoy talking about. Hone that and then teach that. if you're teaching for a recruit class, you need to be well versed in everything that's in that recruit manual because you're not just gonna come in and just teach ladders. You know, you might have to teach hose lines, appliances, ropes and knots, search and rescue, ladders, ventilation. It all depends on what what the drill instructor throws at you at that day. So make sure that you're able to teach all the skills. for the recruit class and make sure that there is a recruit manual like we did in Montgomery County. If it's like, hey, you're gonna be teaching ventilation, you know, well you can go to the ventilation page, look at it what it's all about to make sure that you're hitting the right things because we all do things differently in the field, but like I said earlier in this show, we need to make sure we're consistent when we're teaching the the cadets that we're we're teaching it the way of the book, as opposed to the way that we do it in the In the station, but everything else that you all hit, I'm 100% behind. So last few minutes that we have, let's talk about 9-11s. The 25th anniversary coming up. by the time this show airs, it will have already come and gone. But today is the sixth that we're recording this. So starting with you, RJ, I know you wanted to talk a little bit about 9-11. maybe a little bit about, you know, how that changed your view in the fire service, what it means to you and and how you've moved forward and and anything that you want to say about it. Yeah, I was sixteen years old. I was young. I was still in high school. I even at the time I wasn't familiar with terrorist attacks. to me as a young kid, everything's an accident, right? Like these planes accidentally hit these buildings and and so when I learned as a young kid about terrorist attacks, that kind of stuff. at the time I was a I was a fire explorer with the Cromwell fire department. So I was a young kid who was just really gun-ho about the fire service. And all I wanted to do was find a way to go help. I wanted to go help. I wanted to go. I wanted to be involved. I wanted to help people. I wanted to help firefighters. I wanted to just be able to contribute to to a city that needed help, firefighters who needed help. And obviously I was still in school, not able to to to do that. But for me, you know, it it it it it is super important now in the fire service, now more than ever in the fire service, that we continue to talk about it, we continue to share information. You know, there's so many great firemen who have died. because of this event. honoring their legacy, talking about them, learning about them. There's so much information that talks about all of these firefighters on a daily basis. But that's the most important part is to continue to daily honor these firefighters. And and and now more than ever we have people entering the fire service who weren't even alive for nine eleven. So so so without us talking about it, without us sharing the information, sharing about the the the firefighters, that message gets lost if we don't continue to do that. You know, every year, whether I'm in Rockville or in Frederick, I send out countywide or department wide, I send out videos, information about the firefighters for people to watch, to learn, so that some of these young guys and girls who are getting into the fire service have the ability to learn from from these these videos, you know, documentaries, that kind of stuff. You know, we we are fortunate in Capitol that we get to learn from some of the guys that we teach with who work with some of these guys who made this the ultimate sacrifice. And by by doing that, I feel like I I had a connection or have a connection to these firefighters, even though I n some of them I've you know, I've never met. I feel like we have that personal connection. So You know, the biggest thing for me is to continue to honor these these firefighters, and continue to talk about them, continue to share information with the with the with the fire service, that that is what it is for me. I was a young I was a young guy. I was a young I was a young kid, you know, that that didn't know much about this at the time but continue to learn over time everybody should be doing that. Yeah, I mean I I actually went to to New York City evening the eleventh through the afternoon of the thirteenth. And that's a long story. So I I'm not going to get into that. And that's that's about me, not about not about not about nine eleven. I just remember going up and attending a bunch of funerals with a bunch of guys from Montgomery County. We we all got together, drove up together, stayed in the same hotel room and went went to these funerals and in w in faraway parts. And I forget how we got information on where they needed folks, but I wanna say it may have been like Facebook or something like that. but we we attended I think maybe it's like five or six and we got to attend Terry Hatton's funeral at St. Pat's and they had us come in. They they they got us in with with the rest of the uniform F D Y. I don't know why, but it was the the five of us got in there and sat in in St. Patrick's Cathedral for his service and it was the most, you know, I I get a little choked up thinking about it now. It was really beautiful. and and out of such horror and tragedy, you know, to have to be able to go in there in that kind of situation and really get get a bit of solace, in in honoring such a you know, just such an awesome person. And he was one of three hundred forty three and it and it's it's it was overwhelming for the department and for the folks that, you know it made it that day, I'm I can't imagine. But I'm glad we got to go up there and and experience it. And man, that was it's really really again a a beauty out of tragedy, Terry Hatton's funeral. Something else. Yeah, I think that you know, like R J said, is that it's twenty five years, but we need to continue to honor and remember Especially these young kids that are coming up 'cause they that the the story gets distorted sometimes and that's the way it is with a all these big events. But, you know, for those of us that were, you know, that was our watershed moment. We knew where we were when that happened. We need to let these younger kids that weren't around when when it did happen know exactly what it was, exactly h what occurred, who did it, and why we continue to remember the firefighters that that died that day, the police officers, Port Authority, and that are continuing to die from the the nine eleven cancers. a lot of good came out of that. A lot of of good the Tunnels to Tower program, a a lot of good programs came out of that. but we need to we need to to remember it every day and definitely on nine eleven we need to remember it. And I know RJ you post everybody's name, so so you go s you go through and you know each person that died that particular day. Some of those people were never found. I I attended a couple of funerals as well. Cindy we you know was so overwhelmed with what happened. She wanted to do something. she ended up making we we were friends with some some people that that at engine twenty four ladder five in Greenwich Village and they they lost eleven people there. Some of them we we knew acquaintances wouldn't say we were friends, but we knew and and she really wanted to do something. She made a bunch of bun bunk blankets for that company. I remember that. Yeah, we were up there in in October. like October first. So not even a month afterwards we were staying up in midtown and the city was a mess and and we went down there and talked to those guys, gave the blankets. They were so overwhelmed. it was the least we could do. And like you said, Sam, it's not about us, but it's it's We needed to do something because they were brothers. Whether we knew or not, they were they were brothers, firefighters. And so we we need to make sure that we honor it every single year and we need to make sure that we think about it of what happened and and learn and make sure that it doesn't happen again. Hopefully it never happens again. But so You know, Dave, one thing I wanna add real quick. One thing that I think is a very good conversation starter, it doesn't matter if you were around for it or not. and for anybody listening, in a firehouse, I think this is a very good conversation starter. Asking the guys and girls you work with, where were they on nine eleven? that's a very good conversation starter. It doesn't matter if you're a senior guy or a younger guy. For a younger guy who may have not even been born, just asking Guys at the table, hey, where were you at 9-11? It always opens up the conversation. And everybody, whether they were involved or not, has a different take on it. But everybody who was at least around remembers where they were at. I I was 16 years old. I was in high school. I remember going from one class to the next, and that was the conversation. guys on the job. it doesn't matter where you work, you remember where nobody forgets where they were at when they heard the news. I was I was at Wheaton with Mick. Were you really? At Rescue Two? Look, I was you know me, man, I was a I was a bum. I was a bum as a as a as a newer fireman. And I was returning my uniform shirt to Jerry Bass. Jerry Bass had lent me a college shirt for the shift. So we were there at Wheaton, man, so and Mick was there. And I remember going out on the front ramp of Wheaton and looking down and you could see the loom up from the Pentagon and just being like, Holy Camole. that was that was something, man. And and I I think that's a good conversation starter for anybody. It doesn't matter if you're young or older, but that's I you know, I I I always like this question being asked. I remember a couple years ago when I was at squad three before I left promoted one morning, it was change of shifts, we were all standing on the apron. And I remember one of the guys saying, Hey man, where were you at nine eleven? And it just created such a great conversation of guys, young and older, just everybody talking about where they were or what they remember or what they knew or or or what. And for some of the young kids who who who weren't even born, you know, that is something that they get to to hear from somebody who may have not been there, but somebody who remembers what they what they experienced of of that day. And so for anybody listening, I I just wanted to throw that out there. have that conversation. I just ask that one question. Hey, where were you on nine eleven? And and let let the conversation just flow. Everybody has a different story. Everybody has a different place. Everybody did different things days after. And and and y it creates such a conversation that you you find yourself next thing you know it's hour, two hours later, st people are still talking about. So throw that out there. Well I'm gonna end on that because we can't we can't can't perfect that. So remember nine eleven, like I said, when this airs it'll already have come and gone, but twenty-fifth anniversary. So fellas, another great conversation as always. probably gonna get more more views than anybody else because our show is the shit. That's right. Anyway, guys, be safe out there. God bless. Always remember 9-11 and see you on the fire floor. See ya. Later, Tater.