Latest / Becoming / Avigail Tree: You Can't Change People, Only Love Them

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Avigail Tree: You Can't Change People, Only Love Them · Becoming

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: When I was in the church, I was the judgest
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: of them all. If somebody left the church, you're a sinner,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: like I was the worst. My dad had served as bishop,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: every one of my siblings had been married in the
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: temple and most were very active. All of our friends
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: were Mormon. It was so hard and so isolating, NonStop
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: judgment and misunderstanding and just something I felt very alone in.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: You can't change people. The only way you can change
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: people is by loving them.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: She said, with tears coming down her eyes. I am
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: sad that I've wasted so much time because they've been
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: married for fifteen years. They have five non negotiables and
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: they met four of them another fifth. Then why were
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: you in that relationship for that?
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: Look?
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  Speaker 2: Like if you knew that that wasn't there? How can
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: we become more secure? Like? This is one of those
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: topics that we all need and want, but how.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: Do we do it?
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Okay, buddy, my name is Bubba Page, coming at you
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: from Fatherhood Movement dot Com. I am so lucky to
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: have Abigail trut with me.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: On this podcast.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: We're going to go over some pretty amazing things. But
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: we've got a single mom, two kids living in Nevada
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: of all places, interior designer, decorator, all the things, and
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: tell me what you talk about online. I want everybody
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: to hear about what you cover online as we dive
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: into our little topic today.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, thank you for having me, Bubba. You're
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: such a delight. I just like I love the energy.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: So right now online I'm sharing about spirituality and helping
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: people to connect to the Divine, whether you call it God,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Heavenly Father, the universe in their unique way. The similar
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: connection we have is Mormonism, and having left Mormonism, I
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: found that keeping and growing your connection to God the
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Divine is like the key to everything in life. So
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: that's my passion to help people do that.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: I love it so to give people context. I'm an
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: active member of the Church of Jesus Christ Solatterty Saints.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Some people call us Mormons, right and like I served
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: a mission in Brazil, spent two years volunteering my time
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  Speaker 2: I was married in our temple. I've been, you know,
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: serving in different what they call callings where I go
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: and serve people my whole life, like this has been
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: my whole life. And Abigail grew up in this same
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  Speaker 2: religion and has chosen.
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  Speaker 3: A different path.
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  Speaker 2: And what's amazing is that we've been able to connect
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: on different calls and even in person and have found
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: that our beliefs, although very different, you know, from a
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: structural standpoint, we have so much in common and we
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: get along so well, and even if we don't fully
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: agree with a certain end point of however, we're going
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: to get there. It's been a beautiful relationship to be
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: able to have in such a positive way. And fully
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: people can see this interaction and know that they can
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: do the same. We can all be friends and love
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: one another, and we don't have to have the same
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: religion Like that's there's so much more that that can
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: can bring us together and bind us.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, I was like you, Bubba, I
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: served a Mormon mission. I don't know if we talked
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: about this, no, Oh my gosh. I went to Arcadia, California,
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: and it was married in the temple, And I mean,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: the biggest lover of the church, went through a journey
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: of not being that, but then came back around and
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: I'm the biggest fan again. So I think having this
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: conversation of how we can relate with different beliefs is amazing.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Oh that's so cool.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: Well, you guys, so today, you know, we've got some
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: things in common, right, similar upbringing, similar divorced situation, right,
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: trying to raise kids and co parenting with our expouses,
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: and so there's a lot to be able to cover,
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: I know right now, being able to at least touch
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: on the point of how you've been interacting with other
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: people when let's call it the post Mormon you know
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  Speaker 2: era of your life. Has it been difficult, like with
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  Speaker 2: family and with friends to go through that and kind
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: of wade through that experience.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: How has that gone for you?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, it's extremely difficult, especially for somebody whose family
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  Speaker 1: is very say strong in the church. And like when
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  Speaker 1: I left the church a ten years ago, I was
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  Speaker 1: the second of my five siblings, but you know, my
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  Speaker 1: dad had served as bishop and they my parents had
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: served a full time mission. Like every one of my
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: siblings had been married in the temple and most were
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: very active. You know, my husband at the time was
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  Speaker 1: extremely active in the church, as was I and our kids.
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  Speaker 1: All of our friends were Mormon. To be the one
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  Speaker 1: who honestly not by the choice of my own, like
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: my belief system was changing I think by something more
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: divine than just my thought process. It was so challenging,
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: It was so hard and so isolating. Really, especially in
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: the beginning, I felt like it was just NonStop judgment
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  Speaker 1: and misunderstanding and just something I felt very alone in.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I still continue to have those things come up,
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  Speaker 1: but I've gotten to a place with myself where I'm
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  Speaker 1: very secure of you know, where I am and what
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  Speaker 1: I believe that and no longer is so hard. But
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: it's so hard in the beginning.
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  Speaker 2: So I have to ask, how does someone in my
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  Speaker 2: position where you know, I'm still in that religion, I'm
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: still heavily active and promoting it online and talking about it,
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  Speaker 2: like every how can I be the most support to
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: make sure that people who are choosing another direction? Like
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  Speaker 2: how can I help to show love and support and
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  Speaker 2: be there for them so that they don't feel like
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  Speaker 2: they're you know, they're losing their friends or they're losing
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  Speaker 2: all of this, that they can still have love and support,
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  Speaker 2: Like What's what's the best way for someone in my
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  Speaker 2: position to do that?
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  Speaker 1: You know, the people that have done this, it meant
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  Speaker 1: so much, where they really asked me about what I
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: was experiencing, and I could tell they weren't asking to
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: try to solve the problem, to try to save me,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: or to try to correct any you know, false beliefs
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  Speaker 1: I may have had. You know, it's very common when
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: you leave the church for people to say, okay, well
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: why don't you believe it? And let me prove to
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  Speaker 1: you that that's not actually right, or let me save you,
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  Speaker 1: let me remind you of the testimony you had before.
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  Speaker 1: And while I see all those reasons that people do
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: that are good, you know, they want to help somebody
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  Speaker 1: that they feel is falling away from what they believe
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  Speaker 1: is right. It's really really hard and painful to be
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: labeled as wrong or misled, you know. So the people
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: that didn't do that, maybe they would ask the same
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  Speaker 1: questions like what's happening, what's going on? But they did
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  Speaker 1: it to really understand, to really experience, and maybe didn't
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: have to share their testimony following up that question, you know,
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  Speaker 1: maybe they didn't have to say, Okay, I love you,
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  Speaker 1: but just so you know, I believe the church is true.
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  Speaker 1: Like the people who just heard it and that was it,
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  Speaker 1: and they just had compassion and they you know, could
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: share like wow, that must be so hard, and like
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  Speaker 1: I love you and I believe in you and I
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  Speaker 1: support you, and like that's it, Like those are the
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  Speaker 1: people that like met so much, and the connection would
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: grow deeper.
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  Speaker 3: Oh that's fascinating. I love this.
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  Speaker 2: I feel like so many of us are going through
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: this type of scenario, Like every all of us in
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: some way, shape or form or having some person whether
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: it's a family or friend or neighbor or whatever, who's
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: going through a change. And so to us to hear
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  Speaker 2: directly from you on like, how can we be supportive, compassionate, understanding,
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  Speaker 2: no blame, no shame, and to share love essentially, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: the answer is love as.
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  Speaker 3: We really look at it.
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  Speaker 2: What I heard in my mind was big capital letters love.
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  Speaker 2: And to me, that that is the empathy, that's the
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  Speaker 2: compassion of just loving you as as a person, as
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  Speaker 2: a soul of a human and not trying to change you,
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  Speaker 2: not trying to prove anything, but just showing that love.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that look the level of vulnerability that
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  Speaker 2: you've been able to get to in order to express
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  Speaker 2: these changes that you've that you've been going through, that
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: it's huge in and of itself. Like most people, I
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: think are afraid to even expose those parts of themselves,
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: and that I know has bred a connection. And to me,
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: vulnerability breeds connection, just like period that phrase. So whatever
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: we're going through, when you feel safe with someone like
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  Speaker 2: I know you and I have had these unique conversations
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  Speaker 2: where we felt safe and to be able to share
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  Speaker 2: and express and that safety I think has come Well,
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  Speaker 2: maybe I should ask, like, where does that safety come from?
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  Speaker 2: Because the vulnerability breeds connection. But you have to feel
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  Speaker 2: safe in order to be vulnerable, So I mean, where does.
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  Speaker 1: That come from? If we started talking and we ever
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  Speaker 1: talked about you being in the church and me not
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: being in the church, and I felt judged by it,
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  Speaker 1: for sure, I would have had boundaries and guards and said, okay,
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  Speaker 1: let's focus on what we can connect on. But you
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  Speaker 1: have always been very, very safe and accepting, so it
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: leads you to be able to open up more right
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: when you respond this way, and it's very genuine, And
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  Speaker 1: I'm curious how you gotten to this point because when
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: I was in the church, I was the judgess of
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: them all. I was the one if somebody left the church,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: you're a sinner, like I was the worst. So how
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: as someone who's so devoted to the church, like in
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: all these callings you know, I'm sure you're doing family,
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: ow meaning and all the everything you know, I'm sure
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  Speaker 1: you're doing it all. How do you stay not judgmental
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  Speaker 1: of people who leave the church?
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you for the huge compliment. I really appreciate that.
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  Speaker 2: I take that as a huge compliment. If I already
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: think about that answer, I think it comes down to
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: security and insecurities.
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  Speaker 3: I think when.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: I'm a huge believer in the attached in styles or
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: attachment theory that people talk about right, avoidant, anxious, secure,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: And if you haven't heard of that, whoever's listening, there's
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: a book called Attached. I think it's hugely valuable if
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: you're a single person. If you're married, there's one that's
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: called Secure Love. Then I absolutely recommend any married couple
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: to help them find their whether they're more anxious or
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: more avoidant, and to become more secure. So that was
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: a long winded answer, but I think it's come down
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  Speaker 2: to I know who I am, and like I know
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  Speaker 2: i'm I have begun to dive in deeper into me
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: and to know what I care about and what I
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: truly believe and what matters most to me. And it
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  Speaker 2: feels like because I have that confidence in myself again
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: because it wasn't always there, But I think having that
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: confidence again has allowed me to feel more secure in
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: unique circumstances. So you know, in the topic like this,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: which is very hard for most people to to even
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: think about, let alone talk about with their loved ones,
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  Speaker 2: I have just felt more secure. I guess that's the answer.
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  Speaker 2: Is that for me that confidence and it's not a
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  Speaker 2: confidence in saying that there is no I am better,
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  Speaker 2: there is no this like one way is supersedes another.
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  Speaker 3: To me.
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  Speaker 2: The confidence I guess I'm trying to explain is just
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  Speaker 2: in me, in myself and not to that I'm better
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  Speaker 2: or less than because I think I read this somewhere
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: where pride goes both ways, Like you can have pride
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  Speaker 2: thinking you're better than others, like looking down on but
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  Speaker 2: you can also have pride when you're looking up and
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: and I you know, looking up versus looking down both
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: can equate to pride. And don't believe me, I still
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: have all kinds of pride in me that I've got
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: to work out and you know, iron out all those
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: things because I'm human. But I think from a standpoint
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: of a relationship with all kinds of people from all
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: kinds of backgrounds and diverse, you know, unique circumstances. I
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: think that comes from my own confidence and myself and
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: knowing who I am. I think another concept too. I
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: grew up in San Francisco, so my home is still
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: in northern California, in the East Bay, and growing up
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: in California, I was surrounded by a unique environment, and
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: so I didn't I saw all kinds of people from
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: all kinds of walks of life, and they're beautiful souls
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: in humans that I love to this day. No matter
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: their belief system, no matter their lifestyle choices, no matter
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: their marital status like or skin color or whatever religious background,
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: none of those things matter to me when I was
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: growing up, and I'm really grateful for that upbringing because
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: I know it's harder for some who maybe haven't grown
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: up in as diverse of an area and purely just
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: because of comfort level of where they stand. And I
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: do think that has helped in this regard.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: And I have to say, like the family members I
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: had when I was going through this period of leaving
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: the church, I don't like the term leaving the church,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: because I don't think you ever leave it. It's in may,
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: It's always there. But those family members that maybe were
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: judgy like I once was like from my end from
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: being the one that felt judged, the more I could
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: activate that love and compassion as well, the more it
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: helped us to progress in our relationship. So rather than
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: me getting offended and angry, which is very stereotypical of
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: people who leave the church, choosing to and say, Okay,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: I'm going to stay in this relationship and I'm going
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: to work through it, and I'm going to just keep trying,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to keep showing up, and I'm going
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: to keep having these conversations and keep showing compassion on
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: my end. That has blessed the relationships so much and
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: led to where eventually, over time, like their hearts would
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: start to soften and they would have compassion back. And
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: now my relationships are so different. I have to say, like,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: there's not one person that was in the church or
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: is in the church that I had a relationship with
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: before that I don't now, Like there's nobody I don't
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: talk to because they're in the church and I'm not
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: in the church. But and it can go both ways, right,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: the person in the church and the person who leaves
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: the church, to have that compassion for being judged and
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: for the one you judge, right.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: I love that you brought that up. I think judging
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: is a huge because it's filled with shame. So when
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: we feel judged, it's kind of it's I think a
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: root cause of that judgment is shame. And so when
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: we feel that from another person, or really it's coming
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: from us inside, choosing to have compassion, even if somebody's
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: saying horrible things, right, to try and have some level
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: of compassion for that person.
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: I look at it like.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Our upbringing, and we had mentioned this before the call,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: like we do things as adults now, A lot of
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: it was based on how we were raised, and so
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: knowing that there is a childhood behind each one of
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: us as adults, and we have no idea, you know,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: whether they grew up with two parents in the home,
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: or whether they were kind, or whether they're abusive. We
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: don't know what type of traumas that they've experienced in
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: their life. And so what does that do when they
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: get triggered by something, or when we get triggered by
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: something and our body tenses up and we want to fight, flight,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: freeze or fawn. And how do we handle those emotions
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: and self regulate? Because when something changes in someone's life,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: whether it's a relationship or a religion or a job
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: or like anything that can create some form of insecurity
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: within us that our little inner child might tighten up
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: and you know, hold us, you know, to freeze or
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: just be scared or want to fight back. And as
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: I've personally been trying to recognize those triggers more, be
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: more self aware of when they come. And to me,
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: it's a message that God is sending to me that
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: I've got some work to do. Because if I'm being
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: triggered by this certain thing and it's causing my body
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: to react in that.
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: Way, my nervous system to be kind of frozen or.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Whatever, then where why is.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: That happening to me? Why is that happening to me?
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: And where can I Where can I improve to be
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: more self aware, to be more compassionate for the other person,
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: knowing that the other person has a whole life behind
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: them and a whole experience it's behind them that that
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: shapes who they are today. And it's been interesting in
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: this new dating world that I have entered into a
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: single guy.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Kids, I mean the girls I lining up. I'm sure.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: It's like the very first thing that's ever mentioned. If
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: they don't know, it's like did you.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: Know, Oh my gosh, I love it that.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: I have eight children.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: That's always a good icebreaker, right, But in this way,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: it's been fascinating because as I've been trying to do
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: my own internal work, I feel like I've been opened.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: My mind has been opened to see others.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: More deeply. And when I can see them more deeply,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: to me, that's like in the scripture, as they call
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: it the gift of discernment. And I know there's different
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: use cases for this, but like for me, that gift
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: of discernment has been able to see another human and
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: cease almost see the depth of that's in their soul,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: like seeing through and inside their eyes, just not the
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: physical appearance, but like more of who they are as
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: a human and whether they're a friend or someone to
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: date or a family member. It's almost given me more
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: a higher ability to have compassion. And I know I
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: have not always had that true empathy and that true compassion,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: and nor do I have it perfected in any way,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: shape or form. But there's an inkling that I'm learning,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: and it's giving me a It's helping me to have
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: more grace than understanding for others, even if they choose
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: to not be kind to me, or if they choose
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: to intentionally hurt or demean or whatever it is. It's
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: a fascinating experience.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: Did you have to give yourself that grace before you
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: were able to give it to others? Yeah?
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: I think that the idea.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I'm going to butcher the scripture because I'm not going
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: to quote it perfectly, but you know, we're supposed to
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: love God and love ourselves to be able to love
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: our neighbors and everyone essentially, and so we start with
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: that love of God, and that to me has deepened
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: over time. As a child, it was reliant upon my
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: parents' love for God, and then as more beginner adult,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: I had to create my own sense of love, but
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: it wasn't at that deep yet. And as I've gone
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: through harder and harder trials and challenges in life, it's
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: that has been a gateway for me to deepen my
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: relationship and love for God and to feel that love
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: in return. Whereas it was as a child. It's obviously
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: very much superficial from that, just because I hadn't experienced
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: life yet. But it wasn't You're right, it wasn't until
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: I feel like I had more compassion and love for myself.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: And that maybe sounds like it sounds selfish in a way.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: It doesn't feel that.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: It's true, though, because if you're blocked and you're judging
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: yourself as much as you can say nice words to
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: somebody else, like you're like, oh, this is sounds compassionate,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: this sounds loving, it's not genuine because you're blocked. If
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: you're criticizing yourself, you can't truly accept somebody else. So
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: I think that is key. If you find yourself judging
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: other people, you really are going to have to stop
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: judging yourself. I think before you can really have true
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: compassion for somebody else, you can't give yourself bad words
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: and criticize yourself in your mind and at night, you know,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: just beat yourself up and then expect yourself to love
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: other people. It's not going to work.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: So, Abigail, how do we help the entire world find
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: this out? Because seriously, if all of us had more
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: love for ourselves and again, I want to be very clear.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: This isn't I'm going to go leave my children and
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: go travel the world for a year because that's what
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: i want to do and I love myself enough to
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: go do that thing. No, it's it's a level of
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: compassion and self love, of knowing who I am, knowing
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: that I'm a child, I'm a son of God, that
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: he loves me, that I can share that love with
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: other people, that I can have compassion to other for others,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: even if what is it, you know, love of your
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: enemies kind of a concept, And I'm not one hundred
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: percent there by any means, but it's like, if the
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: world had more of that.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: What would it look like?
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: M hm, Like driving down the road and knowing when
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: somebody cuts you off instead of flipping of the bird
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: right being you know, an understanding. I've told this to
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: my kids. They were like, Dad, that person just cut
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: you out.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: What the heck was that?
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, you know what, Maybe they're late for
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: their daughter's appointment. Maybe they are going to the hospital,
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: maybe they're you know, who knows. Maybe they just didn't
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: even see me at all, and that's okay.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Maybe they're very angry and hurt and we can pray
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: for them to have love for themselves.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: You know, there's so much truth to that that that
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: it really does I mean, love is that answer.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: I heard a beautiful thing from one of my spiritual teachers.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: He said, Uh, you can't change people, but if they're
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: meant to be changed by you, it's going to be
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: through your love. So the only way you can change
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: people is by loving them. And you're not changing them,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: but it's through your love that it will help them
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: to change. But anytime we try to tell someone what
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: they should do what they shouldn't do, like, it's never
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: gonna work. It's going to be the opposite result.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: You know, I wish I could bring on. I've been
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: coaching a woman for a few months that was struggling
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: in her relationship, was she's married, struggling her marit own relationship,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: struggling with her health, struggling with her spirituality. And as
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: she came and I've worked with her on a weekly basis,
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: it's been really fascinating. One of the very first things
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: that we talked about when we met three months ago
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: or four months ago was that, look, you can't change
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: those around you, just like you said you can't change
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: those arounds you.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: So what we're going to work on is you.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: And so we started talking about habits and you know,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: getting to bed earlier, let's get some exercise. What are
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: we eating in our diet? How are you connecting with God?
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: You know, do you want to be praying? Do you
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: want to be studying? Are you worshiping in some kind
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: of with a church or a temple or a synagogue,
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: whatever it is. And as we worked through each individual component,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: you know her end goal.
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: I love to say that.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: I try to help people start with the end in mind.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: It's a Stephen Orcovey thing, starting where do you want
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: to go in one year, in five years, and ten years,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: like who do you want to be? And as she
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: expressed that she wanted a stronger marriage, she wanted to
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: be healthier, she wanted closer connection to cod, we put
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: these systems in place for her to follow. And this
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: is what's been beautiful and I wish she could be
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: here to share it herself. She hasn't been changing anyone else.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: You know, she's got, you know, two little kids, a
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: good husband that's trying, but they weren't connecting very well
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: in the beating She says that as she's been changing herself,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: her own habits, her own you know, lifestyle choices, and
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: her relationship with God and herself, that she's watched the
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: people around her start to change. And I know, you know,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: in books it talks about this, and in theory it's
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: supposed to happen, but it's actually happening right before her eyes,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: before my eyes. That as she looks inward and helps
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: to make herself a better human being, she's watching the
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: relationship get better. And she said something about the relationships.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: She said with tears coming down her eyes. She said,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: I'm sad that I've wasted so much time because they've
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: been married for fifteen years. I've wasted so much time
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: not being able to see him with this new perspective
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: that he has always been trying, that not perfectly, but
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: he has been trying, and that he does truly love
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: her and that he wants to support And it was
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: the perspective that she had had for so many years.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: I was like, why can't this happen? Why can't you
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: do this? Why can't And now that she's got this
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: unique perspective, I think because she loves herself more, they're
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: like falling in love all over again, and it's like
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: playful and flirtatious again, and it's like reignited this spark
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: in the relationship.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: And I'm just like, she's.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: My tears are coming in my eyes, and I'm like,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: please tell the world how this has helped, because I
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: just I hope that when we're sharing stories like this
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: and people come in to tune in, that it can
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: maybe touch touch inside, touch a heart, touch a soul
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: to help them recognize that that they are loved and
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: that they can deepen their own love for themselves. Now,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: you know, talk about post divorce, this new world. It
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: is different than I ever imagined.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Tell me about it. I want to know. I want
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: to know all the details. What is it like? How
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: do you how do you meet the ladies? How do
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: you met them? What's your first date? Oh?
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: This is amazing.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: All right, So if you're listening in, tuning in, and
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: you made it this far, we're going to make a
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: pretty dramatic shift in the conversation here. I just want
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: to say, look for this first other half that we've
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: been able to talk that is just thank you for
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: sharing some of the depths of being open and vulnerable
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: about changes in your life and how you've been able
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: to move forward and create new and strengthen and relationships.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: Anyway, I appreciate it.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: If we're jumping into this dating singles world, Okay.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: That's have fun. Though we got the serious stuff out
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: of the way.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: The serious stuff is okay, we'll take a pause in that.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: We can't help it. We can't help it.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: All right, you're gonna you were going there, Avgail, We're
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: going there right now.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's do it well. And I can say we
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: have very different dating pool like it's funny because maybe
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: we don't have different dating pools. I don't know. I
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: would think as an active member of the Church of
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, maybe your dating pool
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: is very specific. Mine was at the time. Now mine's
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: much more broad, which brings a whole different challenges and
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: opportunities to the table. But tell me, how is dating
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: differently post divorce with a kids than it was maybe
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: when you were twenty one, fresh off the mission.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: It is so different, like night and day, not even close.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: It is absolutely a different world. Getting to know what
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: this looks like. I mean, look, the act of dating
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: and going on dates can be similar, right, You're going
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: to do activities or meals or you know, adventures together,
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: So those things can be similar. But the actual depth
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: of the relationship, the conversation, the the you know, the
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: trauma that we've all been through with. Like, I'm forty
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: two and so you know, I see that I have
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: a window of women that I can date.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Tell us what the window is. We want to know.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: All your single followers want to know, like, do I
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: fit in this window? Oh my gosh, Okay, We're going
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: to find you a wife right now. I'm sure of it.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: I don't think I'm ready for that. I'm still you know,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: I still feel very fresh. I have in no rush
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: taking time, but I appreciate the sentiment. I have dated
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: almost I've almost been up to fifty. I have not
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: gone past fifty.
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: Yet.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: But who knows, right, because I'm getting older too, But
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: as of yet.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: I haven't gone past fifty.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: I have not dated below thirty four, and so I
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: don't know what that says about me. But maybe it's
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: ten years down and almost ten years up. I don't
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: know if that window is normal or not. That's just
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: kind of what I've put together. I have not had
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: like a very specific they have to be a certain age.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: I'm also not a type of To me, it's not
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: they have to look a certain way, they have to
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: have a certain hair color, they have to be a
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: certain height they.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: Have like to me, that's not. Those are not part
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: of my non negotiables, right.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: And so some of the things that I found value
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: in is from a compatibility standpoint, Yes, I believe you
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: need to be attracted to that person. I think that's
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: the first step to even engage, is that there's some
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: level of attraction.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: So that's step number one. Okay, got it.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: I'm going to make a left.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Step number two is that I want to know if
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: we have similar values, similar morals, And because I think
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: from a compatibility standpoint, those are going to be pretty important.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: Beyond the honeymoon phase, right, beyond the fireworks and the
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: passion or whatever it is, there needs to be some
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: fundamental values that are put in place. And so you
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: had mentioned before we hit record, was you know, dating
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: with a faith restriction has been maybe easier because you
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: kind of have an idea of that person. Would explain
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: that more when you when you brought that up, explain that.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was saying, like, when I was first dating
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: before my husband, you know, I was only dating members
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: of the church. And it helps because you have so
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: much thoughts aligned. You know, you have so many values
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: and lifestyle choices that are already similar. Now dating without
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: that restriction, and because now I'm no longer just dating Mormons,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: you know, it opens up to a very big dating pool.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: And I have to say, I like dating just Mormons
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: more than I like dating the whole world. There are
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: characters out there and so many lifestyles and so many backgrounds,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: and it's beautiful, but it does make it harder to
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: find people that are really aligned with you. And for
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: me now I base I really trust that God heap
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: only file there, the creator is going to align me
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: with the right person. So I'm not too concerned with
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: the numbers game. But for just throwing your fishing pole
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: out there and catching any fish that comes, it's not
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: the greatest game. You have to try to narrow down
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: your options.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: I can only imagine. So, you know, as we've had
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: deeper discussions, although different religious pass we still have very
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: similar foundational principles, right, which is which is amazing. But
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: to find that without the constraints of some kind of
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: religious or faith in the dating pool. It can be
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: really hard I can only imagine. And so you know,
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: to narrow down that focus, like you said, knowing if
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: someone has somewhat of a similar belief system, yeah, can
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: be super helpful. And for example, does someone want kids,
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: are not want kids? You're probably not going to know
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: that by a profile or their Instagram or their Facebook
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: or whatever it is, Right, do they believe in a
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: higher power or not? You might or might not know
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: based on what you see online unless they're professing their
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: faith more more openly. And I know there are different
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: like religious based dating apps that also can be There's
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: a new one called Arc. Yeah, Arc like Noah's Ark.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: It's a Christian focused you know dating app, and they're
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: just off and coming and growing. Friends of mine started
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: that company and they're doing pretty well. So anyway, if
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: anyone's out there, it's a Christian you know, based app.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: But that can like align some people with similar values
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: because it really does make a huge difference.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: I think for me too, finding those people is getting
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: in the settings right where those people are. And this
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: is a common thing. Like if you're into running, you
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: go to running clubs, So you meet runners, right, if
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: you're really spiritual, maybe you go to workshops or classes
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: or holiday things where those people are there rather than
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: just going to a bar. And you know, which is
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: fine if you just want random conversation, but if you
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: have an intention to meet an aligned person, you're probably
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: going to need to go to the right settings.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: All right, I'm just going to see it. Don't meet
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: people at the bar, come on, come on, like, look,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: I know most of you guys are listening. You know,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: I don't drink, But it's not that. It's not just that, like,
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: did good things happen at the bar?
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Nah? I don't know.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Maybe maybe I'm just n and find out I'm so
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: naive with my lack of experience in the bar.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: No, I mean, you're right, You're right, it's the ninety
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: five percent of the time. I would say, it's not
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: the highest energy in those places, not what you want.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: I could see that, Okay.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: So, so having some kind of foundational principles I think
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: is key. You know, things like a healthy lifestyle. If
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: you have a healthy lifestyle, it doesn't mean that they
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: have to be an ultra runner like you or whatever, right,
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: like or like I love CrossFit. It doesn't mean that
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: they have to do CrossFit, but having someone that is
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: that I can live a healthy life. So whatever that
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: means to them, But it's intentional. I feel like the way,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: the way that I look at it from a dating
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: perspective is that I just don't want to be pulling
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: someone along health wise.
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: Let's just say it.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: So. I like to exercise. It makes me feel good,
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: builds my confidence. I know it's good for my health.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: I hope I have longevity, that my body doesn't just
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: fall apart in the end, that I can stay strong.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: And yeah, but I'm self motivated. I go to the
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: gym on my own and I don't need anybody to
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: tell me or pull me. I don't think I could
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: be with someone who where I'm like, hey, I'm gonna
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: go and and like having to pull someone along. So
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: they have to be self motivated to want to live
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: a healthy lifestyle. For me, that's important.
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: Do they have to be, you know, at the gym every.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: Single day and their diet is one hundred percent dialed in,
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: no sugar effort. No, that's that's not me either. But
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: I do want that intrinsic motivation and to me, it
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: goes the same with their faith. I don't want to
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: be pulling them along from a faith perspective.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: Well, and they can't really I can anyway, you can't
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: pull them along. You'll try and then they'll resent you
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: and it'll be problems.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So that to me, these are like important values.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: I think it's the same way about I don't know,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: but maybe it's about anything. If they have financial goals
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: and if they're motivated on their own to do certain
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: things in life, that's a beautiful piece. But if you're
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: you're feeling like you're supposed to pull them along, I
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: think that's a horrible way to go. So I've had
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: different women say that they were with somebody for a
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: long time and they met like let's say they have
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: five non negotiables and they met four of them, but
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: not their fifth.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Well, after two or three years of this this in
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: depth relationship, they still didn't have that fifth thing. But
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: it was a non negotiable, so they couldn't seal the
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: deal without that non negotiable.
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: It met, And to.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Me, I'm like, then why were you in that relationship
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: for that? Look like if you knew that that wasn't there, Well,
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: it's there to me, what am I doing here?
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: It's something to be said that not every relationship is
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: supposed to be forever. You know. Maybe you're supposed to
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: be with that person to learn something or create something
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: and they aren't your forever person, and that's also okay.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: So I do think I was guilty my first couple
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: of years after divorce. If somebody didn't reach my whole list,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: I would cut them off after like two dates. And
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: I think I missed it out on a lot of
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: growth opportunities because I wasn't dating very much because I
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: was so picky where now Should I marry those people?
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: No?
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: But could I have continued and learned and grew grew
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: in those situations? Yeah? Probably, you know, so I guess
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: it depends where you're at and what you want.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: I think that's an elevated maturity to me, like, you know,
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: really as a compliment to you, because I have felt
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: the exact same way where I've just cut things because
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: the non negotiables weren't there. And and I do truly
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: believe that there is something to learn from every interaction,
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: from every relationship. Again, whether that person is your marriage
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: person or not. The building of oneself and healing and learning.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: I was able to say, like there was I was
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: able to share gratitude with someone that I had a
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: relationship with that healed parts of me, And even though
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: it wasn't the long term relationship for either one of us,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: there was like a true healing that I got from
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: that relationship and I was so grateful for it. And
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: I hope that that can happen for others too, And
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: as long as we have open, open minds that we
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: can receive. Maybe that helped that learning Each each relationship
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: doesn't have to be a horrible thing. It can be
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: a beautiful thing, even if it doesn't end up being
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: the lung. Yeah.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, with the right perspective, none of your relationship
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: should ever be a failure. They're all ways, you know.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: But I think of what you were saying about non
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: negotiables too. I think there is for a lot of
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: us space and area to look at those and what
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: are they rooted in? Because are they They could be
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: rooted in ego and fear, they could be rooted in physicality.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: Maybe not, but I think that is worth exploring. Why
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: are they my non negotiables? You know what's really the
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: root essence of them. So if if it's physical health,
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: is it because I need I want somebody to work
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: out with me? Okay? Is that really a non negotiable
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: or is it you know, I want somebody who's happy
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: and energetic and maybe we have our own you know,
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: habits and routines and that's okay too. So I think
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: for everyone it's going to be like, let me look
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: at am I being too picky or you know, is
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: it actually a good non negotiable?
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: That's beautiful.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: The reason I even came up with the non negotiables
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: was through therapy, right, so before I even started entered
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: into the dating world, it was this state of mind
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: where it's like, hey, before you go and before you
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: experience this new world, like write down some of the
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: most important things that you think that you would want.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: And so this is without you know, without the influence
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: of the world per se. But the question of where
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: is that coming from? Deeply, where is it coming from?
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: I'm sure there's thoughts from childhood or the marritor relationship
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: between my parents and the things that I liked or
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: disliked about that like had an impact, or the previous relationship,
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: you know, the things that I liked or disliked about that,
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: and so you know, those kind of culminating into this list.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: And but I do I think that deeper thought And
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: I love that you're a deep thinker, a Migail. You
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: think deeply on these topics, which is wonderful. It does
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: make me, you know, question. Okay, so let's look back
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: at those non negotiables.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: Let's see you what.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: Get to the root of what you really want? You know,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: not the body of what you want, but the soul
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: of what you want. Yeah, I think there's a soul
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: of all of this.
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: That's amazing.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: How would you help someone to get into that deeper sense,
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: like that deeper essence? Like what would you do if
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: you were coaching someone to get into that deeper essence?
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think getting curious you said, like asking
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: yourself question like where did this come from? Okay, So
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: say we're talking about this now as an example, it
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: could be anything, but say you really want a partner
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: who's really financially motivated to make a lot of money? Okay,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Like where does that desire come from? Like? Why do
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: I want that so much? Like imagine there was like
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: a perfect partner and we're so in love, but they
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: were content with like you providing and they wanted to
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: like support you and create a very happy home. Like
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: would that make you happy? Maybe not? Maybe you're supposed
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: to be with a very motivated woman, but maybe if
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: you have thought about maybe it would be okay, maybe
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: you would actually like that support and the fact that they,
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: you know, were on your team and helped you. Because
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: I think we just need to keep asking questions like
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: why do I want this? Okay? Like what does this
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: look like? Is this actually everything I want? Well? What
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: if it was something else? But I was really happy?
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Like what would that look like? Everything's so different?
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it is fascinating.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: I think asking different layers of whys to get into
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: that root cause and wonder.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: If I mean, I think like a deep thinker is good,
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: but we have to not trick it with overthinking, you know,
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: and just thinking and thinking and thinking we found the
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: solution and what we need and what we want because
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: the answer actually like isn't up here, you know, it's
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: down here more.
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: That's fascinating.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: So okay, so as we ask the questions of why
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: why did I come over with that non negotiable and
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: you're probably right, Like the healthy lifestyle is much more
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: about happiness, energy, you know, the longevity, and so you know,
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: would that non negotia will be changed, maybe phrase differently,
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: where the person is taking care of themselves and that
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: is what's attractive, is that because they take care of themselves,
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: they get an sleep, you know, they eat a fairly
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: healthy diet. Right, it doesn't have to be perfect, but
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: it's like maybe the longevity is almost if I'm asking
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: myself right now this question live on screen, it's more
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: about the I want to be here for my grandkids,
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: like I want to be here as long as I
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: can in a healthy way, and I want to be conscious.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: I want to have a healthy mind. And you know,
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: God may choose to take me early from this life
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: and that's that's his you know, his mission.
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: And whatever I'm supposed to go, I'll do.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: But if I have a partner to where I can
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: we can go on walks in our eighties or you know,
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: in our fifties and sixties, we can we can travel
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: and walk the streets of Europe for a full day
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: and not not be hurting, you know. And so maybe
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: it's that connection, that longevity and that energy that's more
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: appealing than just someone who goes to the gym, Like
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: that's that is not my motivation, right.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think you're very in tune, like you
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: would sense it out. Like if you went out with
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: somebody and you felt good and you were attracted to them,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: you probably wouldn't put a big X on them because
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: they didn't have a certain like workout routine. But for
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: a lot of people they may they may have like,
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: oh nope, you don't fit this exact thing on my list,
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: So I'm just going to cross you out, which is
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: a shame, right, because maybe the God's trying to bring
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: you a beautiful partner that you're just rejecting because you're judging.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: I do feel like when riding the non negotiables, it
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: was open enough that most could fall into it. Maybe
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: not most, but a lot could fall into it. And
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: less about exclusion, but more is so you know, so
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: it is less specific. Yeah, So thinking about I'm going
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: to share another one that for me, like having a
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: relationship where there can be playfulness and flirtatiousness and uh
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: that goes along with that attractive quality, but not just
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: in the honeymoon phase, that even when things get hard, Like, yes,
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: you can have the serious conversations and you need to
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: be able to work together as a team. But finding
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: someone who finds joy in that type of interaction is attractive,
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: and it almost to me, feels like it's a more
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: of a feminine characteristic. And so I think women who
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: have found themselves found more of their feminine feminine design.
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: Is attractive.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: And maybe not for everyone, but like for me, that's
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: it feels like an important quality. And I know that
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: everybody's at different levels, and I'm learning my own masculinity
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: day by day and growing in my confidence in that regard,
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: but I would assume as I step more into that
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: masculine it's more attractive for women to see that too.
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: And I know I didn't even know about this whole
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: masculine feminine thing a few years ago, and so it's
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: been it has been an interesting and I want to
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: give a shout out. I have some friends who started
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: a website called Masculine and Feminine dot Com, and so
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: if you're wondering what this is all about, they're starting
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: to kind of share more content out there and programs
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: and things about Masculine and Feminine dot Com about that
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: world I do think it's more important than I ever
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: imagined in the relationship and having a polarity. Yeah, within
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: the relationship, what are your feelings on something like that?
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: That's I mean, one hundred percent, it's so important. Like
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: I truly believe by design we are in our souls
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: chosen because that's like the energy that we're here to
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: reveal and to serve and to embody. So if you
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: think about like a woman who maybe flirty and fun
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: in the beginning, but then later becomes bitter and cold,
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: what often is happening is they probably have some wound
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: around masculine energy, and at some point when her partner
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: disappointed her or showed her, you know, he wasn't trustworthy
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: or hurt her, she probably got really guarded and shut
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: off that part of her because by design, the feminine
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: energy receives from the masculine So if it's not safe
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: to receive, it's going to get guarded. Now, not to
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: say the guy did anything wrong, like it's very natural
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: to not be at our best all the time, and
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: the guy maybe did something that was a little harmful
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: at a point. But the goal I think for all
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: of us is to self regulate and to know, like, Okay,
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: if I'm getting guarded right now, what's happening, Like I'm safe,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: I can protect myself, Like I'm not a little girl
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: who like some guy can just abuse me. Like I'm
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: a woman and I can protect myself. Anyways, there's different
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: steps we can take, and I think that's what you're
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: looking for when you're looking for a woman who's going
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: to stay flirty. You're looking for a woman who's not
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: going to shut down and feel unsafe. You know, that's
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: like a that's a vulnerable little girl, to be honest,
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: and we need that. Every woman needs that when they're
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: a little girl. They need to be guarded and protected
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: when you're vulnerable. But you desiring a woman who's done
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: the work to realize they're not that anymore. Now they're
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: a woman that can navigate these situations and stay open
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: because they're safe and they're strong and they're protected. I
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: mean that's like the most attractive thing I think for
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: a woman to be in the power. But then also
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: the same it goes right for a man. We want
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: a man who realizes the power he does have and
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: is masculine energy for good and bad. Like the masculine
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: energy is so powerful and it can do a lot
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: of damage and it can do a lot of good.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: So I think as the man, we also want him
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: to be aware of this and see, Okay, am I
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: doing damage right now with my power? Like am I
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: hurting my children? Am I hurting my wife? Am I
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: hurting my mother? You know? And just be aware of
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: that and even if it does happen, to apologize, to correct.
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: And those are the men that I think women can
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: trust and open up to and stay that vulnerable, fun,
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: flirty selves because they see that this man is safe.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: Okay. We got to talk on this topic because I
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: love it.
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: I absolutely love it.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: It's and it's sad to me that for me that
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: this is a newer concept, that it's a newer topic
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: as of the last few years, and it's been such
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: a beautiful thing for me to start to understand a
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: little bit more about what divine masculine looks like and
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: what is divine feminine and what is it? But you
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: talked about the security, like the maturity of the individual
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: and the maturity of the emotional maturity because they have
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: done the work. There's a book and it's literally called
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: how to Do the Work by Nicole O Prera. And
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: it's a great introduction. So if somebody is like, what
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: is this work that you speak of? What does this
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: deeper dive into your own self and how to become
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: a better human? The book how to do the work,
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: It really opens up a process and the system of
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: a deeper discovery and understanding how your background or childhood
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: is affected or different events in your life maybe has
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: affected you. So talking in relationship to you know what
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: I think is most attractive?
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: And here's my here's my dog. Sorry, he's trying to
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: get in your come here give me? Are we out?
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: Do you see everybody? My Brittane Mountain dog? Puppies so fun?
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: I shouldn't take puppies is like one hundred and thirty pounds.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: So embodying that that feminine design and being in her
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: power that way threatens the little boy who hasn't matured.
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: And I think the same goes for.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: The the little girl inside each you know, each feminine Wow,
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: there's each one of us. Have these little boys and
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: little girls inside of us? And now it's how have
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: we healed that, you know inner child of ours? And
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: have we have we come to a mature sense of
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: what that little inner child was doing for us or
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: is doing for us in a protective sense maybe because
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: in the relationship when we do get our feelings hurt,
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: because it's inevitable when we do feel like something didn't
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: go as we had thought or planned, how do we respond,
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: how do we react? And if we can be in
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: a more emotionally mature state of mind and a more
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: grounded place, I think that's where the repair of those
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: ruptures comes in. Every relationship, to my knowledge, has ruptures.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: Whether they're a new relationship, old relationship, something is going.
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: To have ruptures. But it's what we do with those ruptures.
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: How do we respond and.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: Can we do it out in a place of love
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: and of security and not a place of defensiveness or
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: feeling attacked or something like that. So talk to us,
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: how can we become more secure? Like this is one
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: of those topics that we all need and want, but
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: how do we do it well?
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: First, I think identifying these ruptures as opportunities and not
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: a sign that your relationship is bad. Right, So, like
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: you said, every relationship has these ruptures, and to me
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: this is purposeful because if you think of your relationship
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: like a container, like a bowl or a glass or
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: something that can hold energy or something. In order for
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: it to get bigger, it's gonna need to expand and
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: to crack and to maybe shatter a little bit. But
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: what are you going to do? Are you going to
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: heal those cracks? Are you going to repair those cracks
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: and allow you now this container of your relationship to
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: be bigger and to hold more energy and more blessings
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: and more love. Or are you going to get mad
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: and just blame the other person and allow these cracks
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: to destroy your relationship? Right? So, I think seeing every
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: time that maybe you're hurtner offends you or there's a
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: misunderstanding as an opportunity that through our own healing work,
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: not through trying to change the other person, we have
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: the opportunity to actually build a relationship here. So okay,
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: so what does that look like? Say the crack was Baba,
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: you're my husband and you hurt my feelings? Now do
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: I blame you? Or did I say, okay, like what
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: did that hurt in me? Why did this hurt you?
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: Know?
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: What do I believe about myself that this is so damaging?
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: And then that's where you can find security, because if
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: you see like you said something that triggered something in me,
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: maybe a doubt and insecurity, uh, disbelief in my capabilities.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: Let me start to show myself compassion, love, and it's okay.
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'm not perfect right now, maybe I am a
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: little vulnerable in this area. But through my own love
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: and compassion in I can work towards growing this. I
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: can work towards building confidence here. Now it still doesn't
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: maybe make okay if somebody is abusive to you, But
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: the first thing is to look at why is it
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: hurting me? And where can I build more security within
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: myself and to me always with the Creator or with
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: God that I'm perfectly whole how I am, and I
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: can just grow more from this situation. So security, to
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: me is going to be different in every situation. What
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: makes a secure person is if they take that situation
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: and use it as an opportunity to find more security
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: with themselves and with God and not seek for security
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: from the other person.
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: So two individuals working on their own to become more
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: secure well hopefully create the best relationship. If they're individually
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: working on themselves, then that hopefully that mutual you know,
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: desire to be secure to overcome some of those insecurities
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: will allow for a healthier relationship.
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: Is that what I'm understanding.
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's the only way. If you ever try
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: to get security from your partner, you're going to ruin
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: the relationship. I mean it's you can play that temporary
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: game for a moment where you think the other partner
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: can make you feel more secure and it's their problem.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: But it's it's an intern It's always an internal job.
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: You know what. We got to end on that one.
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: That is awesome.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: I love that it's an internal job. It just is
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: becoming more and more apparent to me the deeper you
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: know on this topic that we go. It's an internal job,
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: and that that individual relationship with God or creator or
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: whatever universe, whatever belief system you have, if whatever, that
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: is an individual responsibility, right, it's no one can do
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: it for you, just like I can't exercise for somebody else.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: Like it has to be an individual responsibility and a
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: goal and a target to go after. I know we
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: didn't get to cover everything we wanted to. Probably in
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: the dating side, we probably got off on some tangents.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: But to close up shop, Avigail, thank you so much
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: for being here. It's great to be here. Your vulnerability,
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: your expertise, your wisdom. How can people find you? Where
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: should they come looking?
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: Tell everybody so nice? Thank you about that. It was
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: a pleasure. Yeah. Instagram at Abigail Tree is the best spot.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: And from there I'll have links or you can go
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: find more resources if you want.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: I love it you guys again, I'm a Bubba page
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: as a Fatherhood Movement podcast, I'm grateful we got to
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: take a deep dive really important topics and uh.
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: And what keeps spreading the good word. Thank you for
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: being here, IVO, Thank you