Latest / MUBI Podcast / Debbie Zoller drives LOST HIGHWAY

Transcript

Debbie Zoller drives LOST HIGHWAY · MUBI Podcast

• 0:00
  Heads up, this episode includes adult language descriptions of sexual violence and spoilers, but it doesn't include me.
• 0:07
  Your regular host Rico Gagliano this season is being helmed by UK film writer Simran Hans.
• 0:12
  You'll find her work inThe New York Times,The Guardian and many more.
• 0:15
  She's a great guide through the Lynchian universe.
• 0:17
  Enjoy.
• 0:21
  In 1995 the makeup artist Debbie Zoller was working on a David Lynch film called Lost Highway.
• 0:27
  She was used to bringing lots of things to set, and one thing she always traveled with was her chair.
• 0:33
  It was a high chair that was the same height as a director's chair, but the director's chairs seemed to always be so rickety.
• 0:43
  And David saw it, and he loved the chair.
• 0:47
  Lynch had to have this chair, and so his producer offered Debbie 50 bucks for it.
• 0:53
  And I said, what are you talking about?
• 0:54
  I said, I need my chair, you can't have my chair.
• 0:57
  And I said, I paid $200 for this chair, you know.
• 1:00
  But Lynch wouldn't let it go.
• 1:02
  So finally, I was like, here, give David the chair.
• 1:06
  I said, it'll be my honor for him to have my chair.
• 1:09
  So Debbie gave up the chair, and when she saw it again, it looked kind of different.
• 1:14
  David had basically rearranged it.
• 1:19
  He attached this, like, silver tray that he could write on.
• 1:24
  He attached a coffee cup holder on one side, an ashtray for cigarettes on the other side.
• 1:30
  He made more of a foot rest.
• 1:33
  It's so, David, because David makes furniture so that he just made it his own.
• 1:38
  And then when we got on The Return, he still had that chair.
• 1:52
  Welcome back to the MUBI Podcast.
• 1:55
  MUBI is the global film company that champions great cinema.
• 1:58
  And on this show we tell you the stories behind great cinema.
• 2:01
  I'm your guest host, Simran Hans, and this is season nine.
• 2:06
  We're calling it Ladies of Lynch.
• 2:08
  Conversations about the subversive female characters created by David Lynch and the singular women who helped shape them, including today's guest: Hi, I'm Debbie Zoller, a makeup designer in this crazy industry for 35 years and have worked with David a majority of my career, probably going on 28, 29 years now.
• 2:29
  Debbie is a makeup and prosthetics designer and a bit of a Hollywood legend.
• 2:33
  She's worked on films and TV shows including Kill Bill, Mad Men,A Star Is Born and Fosse/Verdon, for which she won an Emmy.
• 2:41
  She worked with Lynch on Lost Highway, and in 2017 they collaborated
• 2:45
  on <i: Twin Peaks>The Return.
• 2:47
  on <i: Twin Peaks>She's been an essential part of bringing many of his best loved characters to life.
• 2:52
  on <i: Twin Peaks>In today's episode, we'll learn all about how makeup can tell a story.
• 2:56
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Here's this girl who's scared out of her mind, but she's trying to fake it, that she's in control.
• 3:03
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And so that's why we put the red lipstick on her.
• 3:05
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And how to design a character's look on a set where secrecy is everything.
• 3:10
  on <i: Twin Peaks>We were not allowed to have any photos up in the trailer of any actors that had shot previously.
• 3:17
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I had to hide my continuity book in a drawer and lock it.
• 3:23
  on <i: Twin Peaks>But first, I learned how she ended up as part of Lynchs tight knit crew.
• 3:34
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Debbie was in her mid 20s, and at the very start of her career as a makeup artist for TV and film.
• 3:39
  on <i: Twin Peaks>One day she got a phone call.
• 3:39
  on <i: Twin Peaks>It was the producer, Deepak Nayar.
• 3:44
  on <i: Twin Peaks>He had a job for her, but she'd have to come in for an interview.
• 3:47
  on <i: Twin Peaks>He said, I want you to meet Patty Norris and sit with her first.
• 3:51
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Patty Norris was Patricia Norris, the legendary costume and production designer who had worked with Lynch since 1980.
• 3:58
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I hadn't read a script.
• 3:59
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I had no idea it was even a David Lynch movie.
• 4:02
  on <i: Twin Peaks>They didn't tell me that when I was interviewing.
• 4:04
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Debbie entered the office to find Patty sitting at her desk smoking a cigarette.
• 4:09
  on <i: Twin Peaks>She had all these visuals behind her of colors and curtains and fabrics because she was both costume designer and production designer.
• 4:21
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And I'm looking behind her at all the different pictures.
• 4:25
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And I was like, "Is there someone that plays two characters in this project?" I said, "'cause I can see different visuals." And she just looked at me and she got up with her cigarette.
• 4:37
  on <i: Twin Peaks>She said, "I'll be right back." Turns out, Debbie had intuitively nailed it.
• 4:42
  on <i: Twin Peaks>The film was actually all about doppelgangers.
• 4:45
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Before she knew it, she had the job.
• 4:47
  on <i: Twin Peaks>She was then told it was a David Lynch movie, Lost Highway.
• 4:52
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And at that moment, I think I realized there's no accidents.
• 4:57
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Yeah, that sounds like kismet to me.
• 5:00
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And when you had kind of been growing up in college watching David's films, what did you connect with?
• 5:07
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I think the visuals, especially, you have to see how a character moves within the color palette, within the visuals that you're automatically given.
• 5:21
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Like the colors of the red curtain, the colors of the wallpaper, minimalist furniture like in Lost Highway, the dark and the light in shadows.
• 5:32
  on <i: Twin Peaks>All of those things take into consideration what I do,'cause I'm kind of the last person that fills in what's missing.
• 5:40
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And that's the face.
• 5:42
  on <i: Twin Peaks>But of course, the face, as we know, is everything. Right?
• 5:45
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Well, in my in my world.
• 5:50
  on <i: Twin Peaks>How did David explain the film to you?
• 5:50
  on <i: Twin Peaks>If he explained it at all?
• 5:55
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Oh, he did not explain it to me at all.
• 5:58
  on <i: Twin Peaks>You listen very intently to what he's saying, and then I would interpret it very specifically.
• 6:07
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I would never ask him if I was right or wrong.
• 6:10
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I would never ask him"Could you please explain this?" Because he, as a filmmaker, wants you and the audience to bring with you whatever experiences you've had in your life to interpret what he's saying.
• 6:28
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And how would you describe the film to somebody who hasn't seen it?
• 6:32
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Oh, I don't think I've ever had to describe it.
• 6:35
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I think I've always just said it's a David Lynch movie.
• 6:39
  on <i: Twin Peaks>You're in for a wild ride and keep your mind open and take it in.
• 6:47
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Lost Highway is a kind of neo noir about a jealous and violent jazz musician named Fred.
• 6:53
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Patricia Arquette plays his wife, Renee.
• 6:56
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Here's Arquette in a behind the scenes clip talking about their marriage in the film.
• 7:00
  on <i: Twin Peaks>They have a very dishonest relationship.I mean, I think she's in a way very fearful of him.She doesn't know what he's really capable of. Turns out he may be capable of murder.
• 7:10
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Halfway through the film, Renee ends up dead in their bedroom.
• 7:14
  on <i: Twin Peaks>But then Arquette reappears as a character called Alice Wakefield.
• 7:18
  on <i: Twin Peaks>While Renee was a vampy brunet, Alice is a seductive blond.
• 7:22
  on <i: Twin Peaks>But both of them are in trouble.
• 7:24
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And Arquette says, according to Lynch:He kept saying to me they are the same person.They are the same person. One actor playing two characters who were actually one character.
• 7:37
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Now Debbie had to get that across visually.
• 7:44
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I looked at it as one person bringing lightness and one person bringing darkness.
• 7:50
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And I don't mean darkness like evil.
• 7:50
  on <i: Twin Peaks>It was darkness as a contrast.
• 7:57
  on <i: Twin Peaks>So that's how I approached Patricia and those characters.
• 8:02
  on <i: Twin Peaks>She had that beautiful blond wig that Tony Walker put on her, and this beautiful silk dress.
• 8:10
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Kind of a beigey white tone.
• 8:13
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And I just was like, how do I bring this lightness to this character?
• 8:19
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And then when you see Renee and you see the darker wig and the darker clothing and the shadows that she would walk through in the house, that's how I approached her look.
• 8:31
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Let's start with Alice, the blond.
• 8:31
  on <i: Twin Peaks>How did you enhance that lightness?
• 8:35
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I would keep Patricia's makeup, like, shiny.
• 8:40
  on <i: Twin Peaks>The white eyeshadow had a shimmer to it.
• 8:43
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Her nail polish would always have a shimmer to it, so that wherever she was in the scene, there would always be a pop of color, a pop of light David and I discussed no pink.
• 8:56
  on <i: Twin Peaks>We didn't want pink in this, and so I put a peach colored lipstick on her and then popped the eyeshadow on top of it as a highlight.
• 9:06
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Her hands were constantly on people's faces, and so I wanted to make sure that her nails also portrayed that similar character.
• 9:16
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And Patricia Arquette has talked about this, about changing her nails throughout the shoot, so they always corresponded with whichever character she was supposed to be playing in any given scene, sometimes multiple times a day.
• 9:29
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Yes, because we weren't supposed to ever do both of the girls in the same day.
• 9:35
  on <i: Twin Peaks>That was a question that I had in the very beginning, because we would need to take time to take the polish off, put her in the other polish and change her wig and change her makeup.
• 9:45
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And they were like, oh, don't worry, we won't do that.
• 9:47
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And of course we did.
• 9:50
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Many times. So I work very quickly.
• 9:54
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Tell me about Renee's nails,- Which are dark but not black.
• 9:56
  on <i: Twin Peaks>- Right.
• 9:59
  on <i: Twin Peaks>What does that choice reveal?
• 10:01
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I didn't want black because it would be more goth like.
• 10:05
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And at the time in the mid 90s, there was a color that Chanel made called 'Vamp' which was like a very dark maroon purple color.
• 10:16
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And I thought, oh, that would be perfect.
• 10:18
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And then they had a lipstick that they came out with, which was very similar in tone.
• 10:22
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And so I used both of those'cause, you know, in the 90s, you know, you wore a lipstick that matched your nails, that matched your shoes, that matched your purse.
• 10:30
  on <i: Twin Peaks>So I kind of incorporated that into it.
• 10:33
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And then also I remember going in to the hospital and they had to put one of those things on my finger where, you know, it tests your heart and your heartbeat, and I would wear this blue-black nail polish.
• 10:48
  on <i: Twin Peaks>That was my thing.
• 10:49
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And they said, "We have to take your nail polish off because we can't read it through the nail polish." And I remember I always thought about that and I thought, how interesting is that?
• 10:59
  on <i: Twin Peaks>When you wear nail polish that is opaque, you can't see into a woman's soul.
• 11:02
  on <i: Twin Peaks>You can't see into their health.
• 11:08
  on <i: Twin Peaks>You can't see anything deeper than what she allows you to see.
• 11:14
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And I think I always kept that somewhere in the back of my head, thinking, I'm going to use that for a character someday.
• 11:21
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And I suppose with Renee, you know, the subtext of that is that the relationship is is not a healthy one, but her presentation is very glamorous, very stoic.
• 11:32
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And what she allows you to see. Yes.
• 11:34
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And I just think that's such a a kind of genius detail.
• 11:38
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Obviously, Renee has this sort of almost like Bettie Page style sort of baby bangs and, you know, very glamorous dark hair.
• 11:48
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And Alice is blond, when she steps out of the car and when we first meet her in that sort of silk white dress, it's a sort of Marilyn Monroe moment.
• 11:58
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Why do you think David was so fond of playing with the blond versus brunet trope?
• 12:04
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I think it's just his way of telling a character's story and then also making you guess who she is.
• 12:14
  on <i: Twin Peaks>He wants you to find something in them that maybe is relatable.
• 12:18
  on <i: Twin Peaks>It's self-expression.
• 12:20
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And I think that was the thing with David is that he loved women, and he wrote character specifically for women to express themselves.
• 12:32
  on <i: Twin Peaks>In one of Lost Highway's flashbacks, we see the first time that Alice meets her pimp, Mr Eddie.
• 12:38
  on <i: Twin Peaks>She's wearing red lipstick.
• 12:40
  on <i: Twin Peaks>For Debbie, this was no afterthought.
• 12:43
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Red is a power color.
• 12:47
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Back when I was in college, all of my friends who were graduating were given trips to Europe and cars, and I was given a briefcase by my dad and said, "You're going to go to work." And I remember there was a woman that I had met after I graduated and she said, "You know, in order for you to interview with these companies"in New York, you need to wear red.
• 13:11
  on <i: Twin Peaks>"Red is your power color." And I said, "What about red lipstick?" And she said, "Absolutely, because people will focus on what you're saying"if you're wearing red lipstick. Because they won't be looking anywhere else,"but they'll be watching your lips move." In the scene Alice is forced to perform a striptease to a crowd of gangsters.
• 13:32
  on <i: Twin Peaks>A man holds a gun to her head.
• 13:34
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Arquette looks terrified and her red lips begin to quiver.
• 13:39
  on <i: Twin Peaks>But as the character removes her clothes, her facial expression shifts from fear to something like power.
• 13:46
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And when we were doing the Lost Highway character, when Patricia was younger, when she first meets Mr Eddie, I thought to myself, here's this girl who's scared out of her mind, but she's trying to fake it, that she's in control.
• 14:02
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And so that's why we put the red lipstick on her.
• 14:07
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I'm curious to know if there's anything that you kept the same across.
• 14:11
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Alice and Renee, across both of those character's looks in order to play with this idea that they may or may not be the same person.
• 14:19
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Her eyebrows. Her eyebrows and her teeth.
• 14:21
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I mean, she's got that lovely little snaggletooth that I love so much.
• 14:25
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I kept her eyebrows the same so that you weren't quite sure.
• 14:30
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And as a makeup artist, you're often the last person that the actor is with before they step out of their trailer and in front of the camera.
• 14:40
  on <i: Twin Peaks>You're literally getting them into character.
• 14:43
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Tell me about the intimacy of that.
• 14:45
  on <i: Twin Peaks>In general, it's the best place you want to be and the hardest place you want to be.
• 14:51
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Because depending on the character and depending on how the actor approaches the character, you have to be very sensitive to where they are when they sit in your chair.
• 15:03
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Patricia many times would refuse to look in the mirror, and she would look down.
• 15:10
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Reading a book or a magazine or something.
• 15:13
  on <i: Twin Peaks>So that once I was done with her makeup, she would then look up into the mirror and she would be that character.
• 15:20
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Tell me more about how you remember Patricia on the set of Lost Highway.
• 15:26
  on <i: Twin Peaks>What was your relationship like while you were making this film?
• 15:29
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Well, that was the first time I had worked with her.
• 15:32
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I ultimately ended up working with her for about ten years and she was so brave.
• 15:38
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I would call her my hero all the time, because she allowed herself to be so vulnerable that I felt like I had to protect her in certain scenes, not protecting her from David or not protecting her from, say, Mr Eddie.
• 15:55
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I would just protect her characters, making sure that we got from point A to point B and that she was comfortable.
• 16:05
  on <i: Twin Peaks>She was always putting herself in these uncomfortable positions in the roles.
• 16:10
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I think she one time called David the Devil or something, like, it was on set. She was like,"You're the devil" you know, jokingly.
• 16:17
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And David just laughed because of how uncomfortable she was.
• 16:23
  on <i: Twin Peaks>She was uncomfortable with the nudity.
• 16:24
  on <i: Twin Peaks>She was uncomfortable with many of the scenes that David had written.
• 16:29
  on <i: Twin Peaks>But she did it full throttle.
• 16:29
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And I was just like, I was just in awe.
• 16:35
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I remember I said to myself,"If she can do it, I can do it.
• 16:39
  on <i: Twin Peaks>You know, if she can get through this, I can get her through this." How do you reflect on that discomfort now?
• 16:46
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Because, you know, obviously Lost Highway is an incredible piece of art.
• 16:51
  on <i: Twin Peaks>So everything that everybody went through, you know, we have that to show for it.
• 16:57
  on <i: Twin Peaks>But also the way we reflect on, you know, things like the nudity, things like women being uncomfortable on set with a male director.
• 17:07
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Those things are approached completely differently, sort of in this day and age.
• 17:11
  on <i: Twin Peaks>So how do you think about that aspect of making the film now?
• 17:15
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Well, now we have, you know, intimacy coordinators and women have it in their contracts, whether or not they do nudity or how much nudity.
• 17:25
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Now, men also have that in their contracts because they're asking for full frontal and you know more of the shock value type things.
• 17:36
  on <i: Twin Peaks>I think if it furthers the character and it's appropriate for the scene, I don't think an actor has an issue with it.
• 17:44
  on <i: Twin Peaks>If it's gratuitous...
• 17:47
  on <i: Twin Peaks>that's when they start putting their foot down.
• 17:52
  on <i: Twin Peaks>You said before that making Lost Highway changed you as a makeup artist.
• 17:57
  on <i: Twin Peaks>In what way?
• 17:59
  on <i: Twin Peaks>David changed me as a makeup artist.
• 18:01
  on <i: Twin Peaks>He's kind of ruined me for other directors, to be quite honest, because he and I had a really unique way of communicating.
• 18:12
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Lucky for her, it wasn't the end of their conversation.
• 18:15
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Nearly 20 years after Lost Highway, Debbie would receive a message out of the blue.
• 18:20
  on <i: Twin Peaks>It would pull her back into the David Lynch universe for his most ambitious project yet.
• 18:26
  on <i: Twin Peaks>More on that after the break.
• 18:31
  on <i: Twin Peaks>All right, everybody, your regular host Rico Gagliano here, taking just a moment to tell you about MUBI.
• 18:36
  on <i: Twin Peaks>It is the global film company that champions great cinema, bringing it to you wherever you are, in as many ways as we possibly can.
• 18:43
  on <i: Twin Peaks>We stream movies, we produce them.
• 18:43
  on <i: Twin Peaks>We release them in theaters.
• 18:45
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Movies from any country, from legendary auteurs or brilliant first timers.
• 18:49
  on <i: Twin Peaks>We've always got something new for you to discover.
• 18:52
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And now showing on MUBI for you to discover is David Lynch's TV breakthroughTwin Peaks.
• 18:58
  on <i: Twin Peaks>Created with Mark Frost, this is the show that kind of ushered in the whole concept of prestige television, and was arguably the template for freaky crime thriller shows that came years later, like True Detective.
• 19:09
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And if you've never watched the show, it is kind of a crime thriller, but also throws in supernatural horror, soap opera, melodrama and deadpan comedy, plus a soundtrack that goes from ethereal to groovy.
• 19:21
  on <i: Twin Peaks>It's just what you want from a Lynch joint.
• 19:23
  on <i: Twin Peaks>And we've got every episode for you to flash back to or get into for the very first time.
• 19:28
  on <i: Twin Peaks>The two original seasons and 2017'sTwin Peaks: A Limited Event Series
• 19:33
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>The Return.
• 19:35
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>You will hear Debbie Zoller tell us all about that show in just a minute.
• 19:39
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Subscribe to MUBI at mubi.com and you'll be ready to dive in.
• 19:43
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>As usual, you will find all the links and info you need in the show notes of this episode.
• 19:48
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Speaking of which, let's get back to Simran, Debbie Zoller and the rest of the episode.
• 19:56
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>It was 2014 when Debbie received a somewhat cryptic email.
• 20:00
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>It was from David's producer, Sabrina Sutherland, who we spoke to earlier in this series.
• 20:05
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>She had a seemingly random problem that had to do with fabricating a human face.
• 20:11
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>She asked me how to make like multiple faces, I remember...
• 20:18
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>and how to do it, like, 25 times with multiple people.
• 20:23
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And I was like, "Oh!", I'm like,"Well, there's a few ways.
• 20:27
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>"You would have to do this.
• 20:27
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>You would have to do that.
• 20:30
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>"You know, we would have to figure this out.
• 20:32
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>You would have to make a mold." And it was so obscure that all she basically said was "Okay, thanks, Debbie." And that was it.
• 20:43
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Several months later, Debbie was working on another TV show.
• 20:47
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I was sitting in my chair in the trailer, and I was looking at Twitter, waiting for an actor to come in.
• 20:52
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And I remember seeing on David's Twitter it said,"The gum you like is going to come back in style." And I jumped out of my chair, ran out of the trailer and immediately called Sabrina.
• 21:08
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And I said, "Do you have something you need to tell me?" And she started laughing and she said,"Yeah, we were getting around to it." And that's how I found out about The Return.
• 21:23
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>When you signed on to the project it was famously secretive.
• 21:25
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>More secretive than perhaps any other previous David Lynch project.
• 21:31
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>How did you read the scripts?
• 21:33
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I had to go to David's house and read them.
• 21:36
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I was not allowed to have one, and I had to take very cryptic notes because David was so concerned.
• 21:45
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>He's like, "Debbie, if if you put these in your bag and your bag gets stolen or,"you know..." he would think of these ways that it would get out.
• 21:54
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And I told him, I said, "Don't worry, I completely understand." But at the time it was like a 400 page script.
• 22:02
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I have a good memory, but I don't have a photographic memory.
• 22:05
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>So I needed to take notes like there was no names, there was only initials and specific scenes so that I knew what I was up against as far as creating like the prosthetics and all of the looks and who was in it.
• 22:21
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>We were not allowed to have any photos up in the trailer of any actors that had shot previously.
• 22:28
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I had to hide my continuity book in a drawer and lock it.
• 22:35
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>It was very, very secretive.
• 22:37
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And then there were a couple times when I was on set and I was like,"Sabrina, I can't remember..." And I can't even read my own notes at this point.
• 22:45
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And so she had one script in the trailer, in a lockbox, in a safe.
• 22:52
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And I would go in there, Michael would open up the safe, and I would sit and I would, you know, read the scenes.
• 23:00
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>So I knew what was coming up and what I was preparing for.
• 23:04
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>The only person I think that was allowed to have a script was, I think, the production designer and the costume designer.
• 23:10
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And the rest of us were out of luck.
• 23:15
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Tell me about navigating the tension between needing to get into the mindset of these characters to figure out their look, but also David's quite notorious resistance to over explanation.
• 23:31
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>He doesn't read actors, like he wouldn't have them come in and do a reading.
• 23:35
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>They would sit with him and he would just talk.
• 23:38
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And so there were times when I would just sit with David and we would just talk, and somehow through that, I would be able to get a little bit of insight again, never asking him"So what do you think about this character?" I would just wait for it to kind of unfold.
• 24:00
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Knowing what the set looked like, knowing what the costume would be.
• 24:05
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Would give me enough clues that I could fill in.
• 24:09
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Also the hair, the hair was very important because the hair is the frame to my work.
• 24:16
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And so if I could see what the hair was and I could see what their costumes were and the walls they walked in.
• 24:23
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>It helped tremendously for me to be able to approach something, and I always knew when David was happy because the character would walk on set and his face would light up and his hand would start moving like it was its own person.
• 24:40
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Like his hand would show the excitement with the way that his fingers would twist and move, and his wrist would twist and move.
• 24:51
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And you know, I didn't do the original Twin Peaks, so I was picking up the torch from the previous makeup artist, who is amazing.
• 25:01
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I wanted to make her happy as well as making David happy and not change anything.
• 25:12
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>One of the things that made Lynch happy was incorporating food products into the makeup department.
• 25:18
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Yeah, that's right, food.
• 25:20
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And so it became one of Debbie's tools in scenes featuring everyone from Lynch's favorite actress to the gang of coal blackened, bearded guys called the Woodsmen.
• 25:30
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>When he wanted a face to melt, he asked that we get this pizza dough.
• 25:35
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And there's a video online of Laura Dern sitting in the red room, and David is applying pizza dough that looks like her face is, you know, melting.
• 25:46
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>On the Woodsmen, because they were so dark, I had to do layering of colors and reflection because they were in the dark most of the time.
• 25:56
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>So I used this yellow Snack Pack pudding that I found in the grocery store, and that was the last thing I applied to them into their beards, so that when the light hit them, you would see this kind of wet reflection because there was nothing else that I could find that would do that.
• 26:15
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And when we would do scenes like, with Kyle and he was all bloody and the Woodsmen were smearing the blood all over him, or in any scene where there was blood, I would always bring out a little tray of the different color bloods and some brushes, and asked David if he wants to put the final thing together and paint with the blood.
• 26:38
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And so he would.
• 26:38
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And that's how we would complete a look.
• 26:45
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Also on Debbie's list of looks, a mysterious character that fans of Twin Peaks knew by name but hadn't yet seen.
• 26:52
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Diane, agent Dale Cooper's off screen assistant to whom he dictates messages throughout series one and two.
• 26:59
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>In The Return, we finally get to meet her, and she's played by Laura Dern.
• 27:04
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Right. That was the biggest issue I think I had on the whole movie, because that was a huge amount of pressure.
• 27:13
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>David and Laura got together many times prior to figure out what her costume would be.
• 27:20
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And then I got sent a photo and said,"This is the direction we're going in." The nails were so prominent, the hair was so prominent, the blond and the red.
• 27:31
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And I thought to myself, okay, we have to do something a little bit more monochromatic.
• 27:35
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>But then also looking at her costume, I thought, you know, I want to change her eye shape.
• 27:41
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>She's also the smartest one in the room, and she's been leading Cooper on this journey the whole time.
• 27:47
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And so that's where the eyeliner came from, because I didn't want a cat eye.
• 27:52
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I didn't want a 60s look. I'd done that.
• 27:56
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I wanted something different for her face specifically.
• 28:01
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And so that's when we did more the geisha, where we pulled the eye out.
• 28:06
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And then David insisted on a pink lipstick when she was in the blond wig.
• 28:11
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And for the life of me, I tried probably 10 to 20 different colors and none of them were what he wanted.
• 28:19
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And so I brought out swatches of pinks, and I brought a white lipstick, and I brought a black lipstick, and I said, here you go, let's figure it out and let's make it.
• 28:33
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And so that's what we did.
• 28:35
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And he took one pink and he took a white, and he mixed it together and we put it on her.
• 28:39
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>He said "That's what I want." I mean he was a painter as well, right?
• 28:43
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>So you probably had an affinity through that kind of very innate- understanding of texture and of color.
• 28:48
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>- Right.
• 28:51
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>What do you think that reveals about Diane, that she's got this kind of mismatched manicure?
• 28:57
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I have no idea, and I didn't ask.
• 29:01
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>All I know is, when we switched her to the red wig, I said to Laura and David, "Are you okay if we do the black and white nails?
• 29:09
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Every other one" I said, "because I think it's a yin and yang with this character." And they both agreed.
• 29:16
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>On The Return, we're re-encountering these characters that we knew in the prime of their youth, characters like Shelly or Audrey.
• 29:27
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>How did you want the audience to think about their beauty and to convey this sense of time passing?
• 29:34
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Even though 25 years had gone by, I wanted them to still be in that moment of when we first saw them.
• 29:42
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Yes, everyone aged, but they aged naturally.
• 29:45
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>They aged gracefully.
• 29:47
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I didn't want to do anything makeup wise that you see on Instagram.
• 29:53
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>None of the crazy Instagram eyebrows, none of the cut crease, none of the outlandish highlighting and shadowing and all of that.
• 30:01
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I just made them look beautiful.
• 30:04
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And that to me was really important because that's what David wanted.
• 30:09
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Something that strikes me about the particular beauty of David's characters is that it's a very classic beauty.
• 30:19
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Why do you think that is?
• 30:20
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Where do you place those beauty ideals and that old fashioned glamor that David was so drawn to?
• 30:27
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>You don't want to know what era they're in.
• 30:31
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>That's exactly it.
• 30:32
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I didn't want you to look at it and go,"Oh, that's so 80s" or "Oh, that's 90s" or-- Lost Highway is more 90s just because it was made in the 90s.
• 30:42
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And when you look back, you go, yeah, that's early 90s.
• 30:45
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>But with Twin Peaks, because it was in the 80s and then it came back I didn't want you to be taken out of any time period because it was a multi-dimensional world.
• 30:58
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Like especially with Carrie Page, I looked at it as if Laura Palmer was living in another dimension as herself, but made different choices.
• 31:09
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>What would she look like now?
• 31:13
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Something that Debbie is getting at here is the timeless beauty of Lynch's heroines.
• 31:17
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I think Isabella Rossellini is the classic, and I think Laura Dern is the classic.
• 31:24
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I think they're chameleons.
• 31:27
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And also Patricia.
• 31:28
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And when you think of those three examples of Isabella Rossellini as Dorothy Vallens, Laura Dern, obviously she's worked with David many times, and Patricia Arquette as well as Renee / Alice, these kind of muses and embodiments of a particular kind of femininity.
• 31:49
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>How would you describe the thing that they have in common in terms of how they present, and the look?
• 31:55
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Well, David loved women.
• 31:55
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>He loved the sexuality of women.
• 32:00
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>He loved what women bring to the table.
• 32:00
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>He loves their strength.
• 32:05
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>He loves their femininity, he loves their vulnerabilities.
• 32:09
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And I think all of that is portrayed in every movie that he puts these women in and makes them more vulnerable because they're his movies.
• 32:20
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>No character has ever been the same in all of his projects.
• 32:25
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>They're all different, but they're all feminine.
• 32:28
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And women, we're so multifaceted that we're one person one day we're another person another day, depends on what kind of day we're having, you know?
• 32:39
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>We change our clothes every day.
• 32:39
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>We change our hair color.
• 32:42
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>We change our our moods.
• 32:44
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And he embraced that.
• 32:46
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And he allowed his characters to also embrace that.
• 32:50
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Over the years you also worked with David on various commercials and also on some projects for his website.
• 32:56
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Can you tell us a little bit about some of the other non-film things that you did together?
• 33:01
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I would go over to his house every now and then on Friday nights we would have martini night, way back in the day.
• 33:09
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And then we did a bunch of commercials together.
• 33:12
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>We did a Peugeot commercial with Claudia Schiffer that was a bucking bronco.
• 33:16
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>The car had to buck.
• 33:18
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>We did a Clearblue Easy commercial.
• 33:21
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>We did PlayStation, and I just remember that after each commercial, he would do some kind of remodel or construction to one of the homes.
• 33:32
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>You know, he would build a sound studio, he would do some artwork.
• 33:36
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>He would always do something creative in his world after doing a commercial or a film, or so I always thought"Oh, that's really interesting how you incorporate making money on a project"and then taking that money and building something of your own with it." Debbie's friendship with Lynch continued throughout the years, and they were even beginning to plan their next collaboration.
• 34:05
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I was working on a film in Kentucky earlier this year, when I got the news that David had passed, and we were supposed to be on a project now.
• 34:15
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Doing, I think it was called Wisteria.
• 34:18
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>All of us, Sabrina, we were all approached and said,"You know, we've got this coming up.
• 34:24
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>"So just letting you know." And then I got the terrible news that he had passed in January, and it was the day before my birthday.
• 34:32
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And I'll never forget it.
• 34:34
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>When you look back on your work with David Lynch, what do you think is the most important thing that you learned from him?
• 34:40
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Just being in his presence...
• 34:43
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>You're gonna make me cry.
• 34:47
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I miss him a lot.
• 34:54
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>There's no one like him.
• 34:57
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And I'm truly grateful for the opportunity that he gave me, because he saw something in me...
• 35:10
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>that I didn't know what was even there.
• 35:15
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>What do you think he saw in you?
• 35:18
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I'm hoping a light.
• 35:20
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>That's what I hope for.
• 35:22
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>I just look back, and I'm so grateful for the time that I had with him.
• 35:27
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>The way Lynch worked seemed to impact everybody on set, from his actors to his producers to the craftspeople behind the scenes like Debbie.
• 35:36
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>The cliché of the great director is a powerful and domineering man marshaling his vision to life.
• 35:43
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>But speaking to Debbie and many of the other people in this series, it seems clear that a David Lynch movie wasn't a one man show.
• 35:50
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Lynch instilled a confidence in his collaborators and especially in women.
• 35:56
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>It meant that everyone could bring their A-game.
• 36:10
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And that's this week's episode of The MUBI Podcast.
• 36:13
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Follow us to hear more stories about the Ladies of Lynch.
• 36:17
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Next week we're wrapping up this season with something a little different.
• 36:21
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>To be a lady of Lynch you don't have to have worked with him or even have met him.
• 36:26
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>It's more a state of mind.
• 36:28
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Lynch probably has been the biggest influence on my novel writing much more than any other writer.
• 36:39
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Our final guest is Deborah Levy.
• 36:41
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>She's the author of books including The Cost of LivingHot Milk and August Blue.
• 36:46
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And like me, she's something of a Lynch superfan.
• 36:49
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Make sure you follow us so you don't miss it.
• 36:51
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Meanwhile, if you love the show, leave a five star review wherever you listen.
• 36:55
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And if you've got questions, comments or spare blond wig.
• 36:59
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Our email is podcast@mubi.com And now let's roll credits.
• 37:05
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>This show is written and hosted by me, Simran Hans.
• 37:08
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Ciara McEniff is our producer with help from assistant producer Kat Kowalczyk.
• 37:13
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Christian Koons is our editor.
• 37:15
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Our booking producer is Ollie Charles, Martin Austwick composed our original music.
• 37:21
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>Special thanks to Adam Riedel at Adam Studios who recorded Debbie and to Paul Smith who recorded me.
• 37:28
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>This show is executive produced by Efe Çakarel, Rico Gagliano, Michael Tacca and Daniel Kasman.
• 37:36
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And finally, to watch the best in cinema, subscribe to mubi.com Thanks for listening.
• 37:41
  aka <i: Twin Peaks>And by the way, we've met before, haven't we?