Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 733: The Profound Impact of Bilateralstimulation with Yanick Steinbeck

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Episode 733: The Profound Impact of Bilateralstimulation with Yanick Steinbeck · The Trauma Therapist

0:10
Or welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gaming Person.
0:14
My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible cells, to be human,
0:19
to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in
0:23
who we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating
0:27
authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more
0:33
about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com.
0:37
That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started. So five four,
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three, two and one, our folks, welcome back to the podcast.
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I am very excited to have as my guest today, Yannick Steinbeck.
0:53
Janick, welcome GHI, thanks for having me. Good to be here.
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So, Yannick was a client of MDR experienced a profound impact of bi lateral
1:03
stimulation firsthand. He created bilateral Stimulation dot Io at the beginning of COVID to
1:08
enable his former therapist to practice MDR online. Then something unexpected happened. The
1:15
tool went viral in the EMDR community. One week after launch, the site
1:21
briefly went offline because there was so much traffic. What happened next astonished him
1:26
even more, he began receiving heartwa warming emails from therapists and clients all around
1:32
the world, people in the US, China, Chile, Uganda. His
1:37
humble BLS tool was spreading all across the globe or Yana. Welcome to the
1:42
podcast. Before we get go in here, share with the listeners where you're
1:47
from originally and where you are currently. Thanks guy. So, I'm originally
1:52
from Switzerland, born and raised, and then moved to Berlin in Germany,
1:59
where I lived for for eight years. And currently I am in between conferences
2:06
in the US and decided to spend some time and work from Mexico City.
2:10
So that's why if you see the video, there's quite nice weather in the
2:14
background, and then in August I'll be back in the US at them DREA
2:21
conference. Awesome, awesome, So I mean, just even within that small
2:25
bio, that's that's pretty amazing. So let's get how the heck did this
2:30
start? How did you get into this field? Right? So, a
2:36
couple of years ago, I was a kind of EMDR and I really benefited
2:40
from MDR lastingly and profoundly. And I brought up back then in twenty nineteen,
2:47
the idea to my former therapists like, hey, what if you do
2:51
this online? You know it's such a great therapy. I did it with
2:54
him in person. What if you do it online? You increase the access
3:00
to it to people globally and remotely. And you could, if you're familiar
3:05
with the MDR, you could have the visual bilateral stimulation by having something on
3:08
the screen that moves. You could have the auditory bilateral stimulation with sounds playing
3:13
left and right. And you could have the tactile by latual stimulation by plugging
3:17
a device into your computer that then vibrates left and right and the therapist can
3:22
can control that. And my former therapists said like, oh, yeah,
3:24
n you know, that sounds great, but honestly, nobody needs that.
3:29
Nobody's doing EMDR online, nobody's doing therapy online, and so it's probably just
3:35
a nice idea. And I was like, oh, yeah, okay,
3:37
that's that's fair enough. And then a couple of years later, flash forward,
3:40
COVID comes and he messages me and he's like, hey, long time
3:45
you speak. Remember this thing you told me about back in a day about
3:49
doing MDR online, Well that would be really useful now. So I literally
3:54
spent the first weekend of lockdown, building the initial version of our online by
4:00
natural stimulation software for my former therapist. And I was working at the time
4:04
as a software engineer, so my background is I worked in software engineering,
4:10
product management, business development, different technology startups, so that was kind of
4:15
right up my wheelhouse. And then having been a client myself, I had
4:18
at the time at least a superficial understanding of the MDR. So that's what
4:23
Yeah, let me let me POSI here, because you staying a lot of
4:26
good stuff. I want to make sure I get So why do you don't
4:30
have to go and do it personally too much? But why EMDR? Initially,
4:34
I mean, had you tried other therapies or so I did try other
4:40
therapies. I mean I was suffering from increasingly severe episodic depression where at the
4:46
beginning it was maybe a day or two, and then later it turned into
4:49
kind of episodes of weeks where I just wasn't able to sleep or eat or
4:56
be productive, and I ignored it for like a lo time, and then
5:00
I started trying like different therapies, talk therapy, CBT, and it never
5:06
really got sorted out. And then I was hitting a particularly bad time where
5:14
like the episodes turned into just weeks of misery, and I was like,
5:18
okay, I think I need to I think I need to actually fix that.
5:24
And then somebody recommended em the arguing. I didn't really know much about
5:28
it at the time. I kind of was at a point where I was
5:31
like, okay, I'll try anything, like just just just I mean,
5:35
I didn't have much agency or energy. I was just like, okay,
5:39
just give it to me. And then mr really was the key, I
5:44
would say for me to lastingly overcome. What I didn't know at the time
5:49
was the trauma behind my symptoms. So this was twenty nineteen. I did,
5:59
I think something like four months of pretty intense EMDR and I haven't had
6:03
an oppressive episode since. So it's been incredible for me. It's been like
6:09
profound lasting. I walked into me not really knowing what to expect, and
6:14
certainly the first time my therapist put a light burn in front of me and
6:16
told me to like follow the dog, I was like, well, why
6:19
why am I like looking at this dog? But then you know, as
6:23
it goes, after a couple of sessions, things started to come up that
6:28
maybe I didn't even remember anymore. I was able to shift my perspective,
6:31
shift my beliefs in a way that wasn't possible before. So I really strongly
6:38
believe in EMDR and it helped me a lot. And I'm glad it's now
6:44
spreading more and more and helping more and more people worldwide. That is amazing.
6:49
I mean, it's so I'm so happy for you that you experience that
6:56
that relief. It sounds like you had a really good therapist. So yes,
7:00
yes, m I'm internally grateful to him. I'm still in touch with
7:03
him every now and then. Um also because he's still using the software which
7:10
which yeah, and now turned into this bigger thing. Um. So yeah,
7:13
it's it's kind of crazy to me, how you know this therapy which
7:17
was recommended to me turning into now basically you know, this big thing in
7:20
my life that that I that I dedicate like most of my times. So
7:25
let's go go back. So he contacts you a couple of years later.
7:30
It's as zaionic you know that that idea you had, let's let's talk about
7:35
it, and you were like, what, it's one thing to be able
7:43
to have the knowledge, to be able to you know, work on something
7:46
like that. But you took some steps forward. You were like, Okay,
7:49
let's do this. What inspired you to do that? Well, I
7:54
think the good thing was that when he approached me, because we already discussed
7:59
this before, and like I thought about it before, I had kind of
8:01
a picture in my mind about what such a software would look like, you
8:07
know, and then when he approached me, I was like, Okay,
8:09
now there is this urgent need. There is all these you know, hundreds
8:15
of thousands of therapists worldwide the practice e MDR that overnight are now forced to
8:20
find a way to do it virtually, and they need a tool for the
8:26
valadual stimulation. Like there's all these video chat solutions, and they turned also
8:31
at the beginning of COVID started to be very good, you know, like
8:33
video chat. I don't know if you remember before COVID was kind of a
8:35
mess, right, it was quite unreliable. Now because everybody worldwide needed it,
8:41
it got quite good. But what was lacking was this bialactual stimulation.
8:43
So I had a rough picture in my mind for what such a software could
8:46
look like, and then I sat down first weekend of lockdown and acted out
8:54
that vision and put it into a very basic, very simple software, which
8:58
had been very first version just covered the visual bilactual stipulation, just the dot
9:03
that moves on the screen that the therapist can control at different speeds. The
9:07
client can watch it, the therapists can change certain appearance characteristics like the color.
9:15
And it was really super simple. And I mean, in a way,
9:18
it was simple out of necessity because I was like, Okay, I
9:22
have one weekend to get this done, you know, because I have a
9:24
day job, like money to Friday. But in hindsight, this simplicity turned
9:28
out to be a virtue because most of these therapists learn't particularly excited about technology
9:35
or particularly excited about some complicated piece of technology that they now have to integrate
9:41
into their therapist. So the fact that the tool was so simple and that
9:45
it was available online for free, I think is what then caused it to
9:50
go viral. Right Like I built the original version, I shared it with
9:54
my form of therapist kind of forgot about it. I was like, oh,
9:56
it's this, you know, a weekend project, this COVID project,
10:00
little thing that might be used by like three people in the world. I
10:03
mean, even the name like the domain by adual stimulation dot, I owe,
10:05
you know, it's not very catchy, it's not very short. At
10:09
the time, I was just like, okay, which domain is available?
10:11
But Audo simulation dot com already taken, but I do simulation dot I owe
10:16
not taken. Okay, I'll take that one. It doesn't matter, it's
10:18
going to be used by three people. Anyways. Well it turns out it
10:20
didn't matter. But anyways, I shared it with him, and then a
10:24
week later I opened my email inbox and it's just dozens of emails of people
10:28
from all over the world, and some of them are complaining that the site
10:31
is now and I was like, what, the side is down? So
10:33
how many people are with someone else? Yeah? So so he shared it
10:37
on some Facebook groups and some email lists, and then people shared it more
10:41
and more because everybody was overnight forced to find a way to do the bid
10:46
actual stimulation online and people try to do things like, oh, I'll move
10:50
my finger in front of the camera, or turns out that's very blurry.
10:52
Oh I'll put my light bar in front of the camera. Turns out that's
10:56
also not so great. So when this tool came along, it was like,
11:00
oh, here is like a free and simple way you don't need to
11:03
create an account. You don't need to register, you don't need to pay,
11:05
You just go to this website, you share the link with your client
11:09
and then you can do the Valac trustimulation and it's like easy. And that
11:13
spread like very quickly through all these channels you know that that MDR therapists used
11:18
to to communicate with each other. And it was also this feeling of like,
11:22
hey, we're all in this together, let's help each other find ways
11:26
to bring this online. And so this is so interesting. I mean,
11:30
as you're talking, I'm thinking to myself, there's so many like pieces that
11:37
were in place for this to happen, right, I Mean, you had
11:41
your own experience, You had an pretty incredible You had, first of all,
11:48
really severe symptoms that were relieved so kind of drastically by this experience,
11:56
and that, from what you're saying, really inspired you to get going.
12:01
And within the context of COVID and people just you know, starting therapy online
12:07
and everything, it just everything was in place. Yeah, and even in
12:15
terms of what I did before, it kind of all came together perfectly.
12:18
Like I originally studied business. I worked on the business side of like technology
12:22
startups. I then started learning how to program, became a software engineer,
12:28
worked in like the software engineering, execution, and management. I worked in
12:35
a company where I was in charge of their US rollout and it was a
12:39
healthcare company, so I learned a lot about like US healthcare and the payer
12:45
system in the US and like how that offits together. And then here I
12:48
am at the beginning of COVID, building this kind of software that started out
12:54
very simple and grew and grew and grew and kind of brought together all my
12:58
previous experiences and very fulfilling way um and so yeah, it's very unexpected way
13:03
too. Yeah yeah, So what happens? Okay, walk us through.
13:07
So things start to go viral. You start to get these emails from people
13:13
from all over the world. What happens next? So I'm still working as
13:18
a softbare engineer at the time, and what started as a weekend project is
13:22
now turning into this kind of side project on nights and weekends, you know,
13:26
like, um, I get a lot of feature requests, I get
13:31
a lot of little tech issues that I need to fix. I start getting
13:37
donations, like I'm prompted. I remember this email I get from PayPal where
13:41
because I put my email on the website in terms of, hey, if
13:45
you have an issue, please email me. And then what people started doing
13:48
is just sending like money to that email. I didn't have a PayPal account,
13:50
so Papal emails me like, hey, people are sending you money to
13:54
create an account. I was like, wow, that's crazy, So I
13:58
created a Paperal account. I start getting some of the nations. I started
14:01
spending like nights and weekends on extending improving the tool, you know, adding
14:05
auditree billactual stimulation, adding a whole bunch of features based on what people ask
14:09
for, making it more reliable, making it work on like really old browsers,
14:13
making it work on phones, and all these things, and then it
14:18
just organically kept growing and it was still considered. I always thought, well,
14:24
I guess we all thought that time. You know, oh, covid
14:26
is going to be over in like a couple of months, and then this
14:28
project is going to be over. And for the duration of COVID, I'm
14:31
gonna spend my nights in weekends to maintain it and give people this kind of
14:37
free and simple, accessible resource to do this therapy online. And I didn't
14:41
think about it in terms of a business at the time. But then covid
14:45
kept on going, and then also the growth of the user base kept on
14:48
going up, and at some point I had five thousand therapists using it,
14:52
and I was like, that's a crazy number, you know, like I
14:56
didn't do any marketing or anything. And then at five therapists and kind of
15:01
no end inside for the pandemic, I was like, Okay, maybe I
15:03
should turn this into a business. And then I had Benjamin joined, one
15:11
of my best friends, and we knew each other for a long time.
15:13
We both worked in the kind of technology startup sector for many years, and
15:18
we always had this dream of like running something together. And we met actually
15:24
in the US in when we were both exchanged students in Los Angeles, and
15:28
he's Austrian and Swiss, so we have like this Alps Mountain connection. And
15:33
then he joined and I quit my job and I started working on bladder simulations
15:37
that at full time, and we said, okay, let's actually turned this
15:43
from kind of side project into a proper organization. And that's when we started
15:48
doing a couple of things. So we said, okay, we always want
15:52
to keep a basic version that is free. We always want to keep this
15:56
as a tool that new therapists can use that therapists and developing countries can use
16:02
to treat clients remotely for free. UM. But we also want to go
16:07
beyond the very basic free version. We want to build a paid version of
16:11
the software that has more features, more capabilities, more ways to do biladual
16:15
stimulation, tax working memory, and UM. We started by doing a lot
16:21
of user research, talking to hundreds of the NBA therapists m learning about what
16:26
they need from their tools and what they what their lives are like. Also,
16:32
and let hang on a second, let's let's get into that. Before
16:34
we do, I just want to take a break here for one second.
16:37
We're talking with Janik Steinbeck of Bilateral Stimulation dot io and we'll be back in
16:44
one moment, all right, Yannick, So let's continue with that. So
16:49
you're talking about the free version and then the paid version. What's what's the
16:56
difference? Right? So, UM, it's basically it's the same software,
17:03
but the paid version unlocks extra features. So from the moment when we turned
17:08
this from kind of side projected to business and an organization, we said,
17:11
okay, we want to always keep the free version available. We always want
17:15
to enable people to do stimulation remotely for free. But in order to have
17:22
this be a sustainable project that you know, keeps on serving people for years
17:26
and decades, we need a paid version to pay the bills, and the
17:30
best paid version unlocks extra features such as having the visual bills grow diagonal or
17:38
in an infinity shape as opposed to only horizontal, such as child friendly motives.
17:44
So we have a lot of child therapists using it and they appreciate this
17:48
feature that we added, which is you can turn the dot into like an
17:52
animal or an emoji, and that has been very popular. We recently added,
17:57
based on popular demand, background images. So one of the professional paid
18:03
features is you can have an image in the background. You know, can
18:06
be a beautiful nature image like a waterfall or a forest or a mountain range,
18:11
or it can be if you're working with exposure therapy, a triggering image
18:15
such as a hospital, a fire, a bar. And what we're releasing
18:22
soon is the ability to upload your own background image. That's been a very
18:25
popular request because people sometimes want to do very individualized either soothing kind of calm
18:33
places or like triggering exposure kind of images that are very specific to the patient
18:37
that they're treating. So soon you'll be able to like upload your own background
18:41
image on which the biodo simulation is then projected. And then we have a
18:45
couple other things like Hippa wise if you have a paid account with us,
18:49
will sign a PAA with you, which is important to some organizations. And
18:56
you can save your BLS settings for each client, so you don't have to
19:00
note them down and remember them, but the system saves them for you.
19:04
And then lastly, when you share your session link with your client, you
19:11
can kind of like a zoom link, right like you said, the zoom
19:12
link to a client they click on it. Similarly, you create a link
19:15
in our system to send to your client for the bilactual stimulation, and in
19:21
the paid version that link is customizable. It could, you know, make
19:23
it like Slash the trauma therapist Slash guy as opposed to some random link.
19:29
So that that's some of the features of the paid version. But like when
19:32
we started working on it, all of that was kind of unclear and still
19:36
crystallizing, and we kind of learned about what people want and need from these
19:41
conversations we had with all these therapists. And then one thing that kept coming
19:45
up, and that was years ago is hey, we want to do tactile
19:51
bilactual stimulation online. We want to do tactile EMDR online. And I think
19:56
for the longest time we kind of and waves in the way. We're like,
20:00
well, this sounds complicated. We don't know how to do this.
20:03
Like this sounds like it needs some hardware. We're not hardware, guys,
20:07
we don't know how that works. But then it kept coming up so frequently
20:10
attorney to like our most popular feature request that we said, okay, well
20:14
what if we were to build a device for tactile the MDR. And then
20:18
this kind of journey started again of like, explain to our listeners that what
20:26
tactile right right with them? Drum. There's different theories for why it works
20:33
right uh and and um, different ways in which people use external modalities to
20:42
distract your brain, or to tax your working memory, or to induce this
20:45
light right left stimulation, um, all of it with the goal of putting
20:51
your brain in a state where it is then easier for you to overcome your
20:53
trauma, easier for you to reframe your beliefs around the trauma. And the
20:59
most common modality that people use to put your brain into that desired state is
21:06
bilactual stimulation, so stimulation left and right, and historically it has been eye
21:11
movements. That's also in the name right embr I movement desensitization, and we're
21:15
processing. Later on people discover that you can also use auditory by lactual stimulation
21:21
sounds left and right, and that also works. And then even later people
21:26
said, well, what about another sense, what about tactile You know,
21:30
what if you tap people historically in person left and right on their shoulders,
21:36
on their knees, what if people tap themselves in terms of the butterfly hug
21:38
And people discovered, oh, actually that also works. That's soothing that's coming.
21:44
That is working as a modality to put your brain into that desired state.
21:48
And then at some point people develop devices for it. So if you
21:55
go to an MDR. Therapist in their office that might have a device to
21:59
face is handheld kind of buzzers that they put in your hands. They vibrate
22:03
left and right for this tactile bilateral stimulation. And what we have developed is
22:08
our own buzzers that vibrate left and right, but that work over the internet,
22:14
that work remotely, so as the clients I connect them to my laptop
22:18
and then US, the therapists can control them remotely, and we have you
22:22
know, people doing that a couple hours apart from each other in the US.
22:26
We have people doing that across the Atlantic, um, you know,
22:29
across the Pacific, with people being in different continents, and that is not
22:33
possible. So you can now do this tactile EMDR virtually. That sounds amazing.
22:38
I think I share with you previously that Yeah, I was a client
22:44
also and did EMDR and bilateral stimulation, and I my therapist did use those
22:51
handheld things that we're really really good. So it's interesting to me Janick.
22:56
You know, as we're talking here before COVID HIT, a lot of therapists
23:03
will like, you know, I'm not going to do online therapy telehealth.
23:08
There's no way it can't be done. Even if it is, it's not
23:11
going to work. So how do you talk about how do you explain the
23:18
benefits of bilotal stimulation over the internet. I mean, I'm sure there are
23:23
some people out there going Okay, sounds good, but is it as effective?
23:29
It's a great question. Yeah, it's a great question, and I
23:32
totally understand. Also, well, there's multiple concerns, right, There's people
23:36
being concerned about the effectiveness of it. There's people being concerned about doing more
23:42
technology in the process, which is not necessarily a good thing, you know,
23:45
because it can break down, you know, like what if the video
23:48
breaks down? What if you're about simulation program breaks down? How do I
23:52
even use this? Will the client understand how to use it? Like people
23:57
historically, I think have been a rates to add technology to their therapy because
24:02
they feel like it's something outside of their control. Right Like if I'm in
24:04
the room with my client and I talk to them face to face and I
24:08
might even do the valid stimulation like manually without the device, you know,
24:11
then it's all in my control. And as soon as I introduce technology that
24:15
adds this like variable to it, at this uncertainty of is it going to
24:18
work? Is the client going to get it? And then with virtual also,
24:22
you know, is it effective? And I think these are all like
24:25
valid concerns. And then I think when COVID came, it forced everybody's hand
24:29
and everybody was kind of forced to, you know, find out and try
24:33
it out. And I think pretty quickly, first on a clinical first in
24:40
the clinical community, and then later also validated by research, it became clear
24:45
that well, it works, it's effective. Maybe for some people it's even
24:48
more effective because they can do it from the comfort of their own home,
24:52
they don't have to commute. There's less no shows because while if I'm very
24:56
depressed from in a very bad state, am I'm really going to take you
25:00
know, the one to our journey in my therapist? And people can do
25:04
it when they're in a more comfortable mindset, maybe more kind of in their
25:10
window of tolerance, because they're at home or they're in the location that they
25:14
desire to be in. So I think clinically people very quickly were like,
25:18
oh, this actually works and sometimes even works better. And then research wise,
25:22
as as as the research started to catch up and do studies, they
25:26
were like, oh, actually it's also yeah, we can confirm this works.
25:29
So the effectiveness question I think is kind of resolved. Now. There
25:33
is still the question of like personal preference, you know, and certainly there's
25:37
therapists who still very much prefer sitting in front of people in person and doing
25:41
it in person, and I totally understand that, and we have been trying
25:45
to also make our tools more suitable for in person therapy, and many therapists
25:51
also use our tools for in person therapy, but there is still a lot
25:55
of value in remote therapy, right. And there is value in it for
25:59
the pist in terms of being able to work from home, being able to
26:03
spend time with their family, being able to enjoy the benefits of remote working
26:07
that many people have learned to enjoy. But there's especially also benefits it for
26:12
the clients, right they don't have to commute, many of them might be
26:17
immobile. We got a lot of females from clients saying like, Hey,
26:19
I'm in a wheelchair. I could not possibly meet my therapist in person more
26:23
than like once a month. Now, being able to do this remotely really
26:29
opened the possibility of EMDR up to me and made it more accessible. And
26:34
I think that is the key, Like in a world where we still have
26:38
kind of an undersupply of therapists and we still have people waiting a long time
26:44
for therapy, and maybe also geographical kind of bottlenecks in terms of oh,
26:48
the town that I'm at, the village that I'm at doesn't have the therapy
26:51
that I need. I think it's super important to have a way to do
26:56
its location independent, to do it online, and to increase the accessibility of
27:00
it through that. Yeah, really exciting, especially that example of that person
27:08
in a wheelchair. Oh my god, this it just frees up so much
27:15
therapy for them and the possibilities. So let's just be clear here. So
27:22
this is this tool specifically for MDR therapists. That's correct, Yes, So
27:27
we are focused on the DR and we are also specifically focused on a tool
27:33
being a tool for therapists as opposed to self application. Okay, And so
27:38
if therapists are interested therapists listening to this, they should go to your website
27:45
and what will they see there? Right, So if you visit by Lateral
27:48
Stimulation that I owe, you will see our free BLS tool that you can
27:55
use today without installation, without sign up, without registration, to provide visual
28:00
and auditree by lactual stimulation to your clients in the course of the MDR therapy.
28:07
And it is originally developed for telehealth and virtual and that's where it works
28:11
extremely well. But we also have as many therapists go back to a hybrid
28:15
kind of set up, an increasing number of therapists that use it in office,
28:18
and we have electutorials on the website for how all of that works.
28:23
If you are interested in Tactile by lactual stimulation, you can visit a website
28:27
click on Tactile, learn more about our buzzers and order them. And we
28:33
all also have actually special deals for listeners of the Trauma Therapist, so you
28:40
can get a well, you can always use our free BLS tool without registration
28:45
or anything, but as a Trauma Therapist listener, you can get a sixty
28:49
day free trial of our paid professional software that unlocks all the features, as
28:55
well as a special discount on the Tactile buzzers. And if you want to
29:00
take advantage of that, then visit the BLS dolt tools. So you just
29:04
go to your browser, you type also, you hit enter, and it
29:10
will bring you straight to the special betterness. Okay, so once again that's
29:14
just BLS dot tools. Type that in the browser and that'll take you right
29:18
there. Awesome, Wow, so inspiring. Man, your your story is
29:23
just pretty incredible. It's like You've got to go on Shark Tank and talk
29:27
about this. I mean it's it's that like amazing, it's so inspiring.
29:33
Um or awesome. What's the best way for people to get in contact with
29:37
you? Right? So? I always love um talking to em their frapace
29:41
and people in the space about um any ideas, feedback, critique or partnerships,
29:47
collaborations, and you can reach me by email Young Nick at Bilateral Stimulation
29:53
dot ioe. Yannick is spelled y A n I c K. I think
29:59
you also see the in the show notes and it's at by that muslimination thought.
30:02
I owe you also find this on the website and yeah, I'll apply
30:06
to every single limail. Always happy to hear from Yeah, and uh yeah
30:10
thanks for happy to me guy. Awesome, it was a pleasure. I'm
30:12
excited to get this out there. Or yeah, take care you too. Hi,