Latest / Talking Italy / "No scales, no stress": Amber Guinness on cooking by instinct
Transcript
- Isobel Giles: Hello, I'm Isobel Giles, and this is Talking Italy from Italy Segreta. Each week, I ask my guest to explore an Italian word in their own words. I hope you enjoy listening. Isobel Giles: Amber Guinness is a cookbook writer and the woman behind the Arniano Painting school, a residential art and food retreat set in her family's Tuscan farmhouse. Born in London, but raised in Italy. She spent her life building something around the table. That impulse has become three bestselling cookbooks, A House Party in Tuscany, Italian Coastal, and most recently Winter in Tuscany: the Quanto Basta way. Quanto Basta essentially means just enough and often appears in Italian cookbooks as QB next to salt flour or glug of olive oil. For Amber, quanto basta isn't just a cooking instruction, it's a way of life. Amber, welcome to Talking Italy Amber Guinness: oh, thank you so much for having me as well. So nice. Isobel Giles: So this word, quanto basta, how do you define it? Amber Guinness: Well, your description is sort of perfect, but I would say it's, yeah, it's a fabulous Italian kitchen philosophy, and as you say, I kind of see it as a philosophy for life. You know, as much as you need, and these two letters that appear next to so many ingredients in any original Italian language cookbook. I just think it's such a kind of wonderful metaphor for how Italians cook. Can you imagine in an English cookbook there being qb next to olive oil or flour, or, some quite key ingredients, butter. We would definitely have half a teaspoon or a hundred grams or whatever. And it's just this invitation to cook instinctively to use your nouse, your knowledge, not take cooking too seriously. Cooking shouldn't be taken too seriously. You know, you're just trying to kind of make something delicious to eat. At the end of the day, the, the stakes are not that high. And I think it's this really lovely entryway into that idea and that way of cooking. Isobel Giles: And I mean, it feels like a term so closely linked to the culture and ideas of Italy and Italian people, the way they approach life. As you've said, it's not something you can imagine appearing in a cookbook in any other country. Why do you think that is Amber Guinness: I think it's a lot to do with the fact that there isn't sort of relationship with cookbooks that we have, say in the UK, where people really rely on cookbooks. I mean, even seventies and eighties, you know, there's hysteria around Delia and having the perfect dinner party when people are cooking in Italy, they're just trying to make something delicious to eat for themselves, their loved ones. It's not this kind of big performance and it's a lot to do with the fact that people learn to cook by sight, by just watching their parents do it, by watching their nonnas do it. Their mothers. Less so weirdly the generation above us, I would say women who were kind of coming into their own in the seventies and eighties, their mothers definitely told them to not learn to cook. So it was a sort of form of enslavement. So, so they have a slightly different relationship, but people our age, I suppose, and, and the nonni, they've watched these things happen. I mean, that's how my mom learned to cook was just by watching Italians cooking and there's no instructions. They didn't write the recipe down. They just sort of say, watch me. Isobel Giles: And I think that was the way your mother taught you too, wasn't it? Amber Guinness: Oh my gosh, she was so bossy, she would come and me and my sister would be watching TV and she would say, I thought you wanted to learn to make malfatti. And then I would say, yes. 'cause how do you make them? I don't know. You have to watch me. And so we would watch and then eventually be allowed to help out. But yeah there were no scales. Definitely. Isobel Giles: So talking about your mother, let's go back to where it all started. Arniano, the house just outside of Siena, where you were raised, your father, Jasper, created the garden, and your mother Camilla restored the house. But it sounds like food is really at the heart of everything you did. What did growing up at that table look like? Amber Guinness: It was really wonderful 'cause the house was basically semi-derelict when my parents bought it. There was a roof and windows, but no water or electricity. So it was quite a big project they were taking on. We lived before they bought the house in Greve, in just South Florence, and they moved me in. I was six months old and we just camped on the top floor, which the only room with a fireplace that worked and they put in just a little gas stove. And it was pretty basic, I suppose. And now that I have a child, I cannot think of anything more anxiety inducing. So I'm amazed they did it. And there's this kind of. dunno if it's an apocryphal story literally four months ago, one of these builders claimed it was absolutely true that apparently my mother came down one day and there was this barrel of water outside and there was a frost. And so there was this layer of frost over the water and she just broke the water and dunked me in it to, to wash me. And these, you know, can you imagine these Italian builders, Italians hate the cold? And yeah, so 35 years on, they're still talking about it in our village. But yes, in terms of food, my mother and my father were really good at feeding the troops, understanding that if you want the work to get done quickly, you make sure that there is a hot meal for the team built, doing the building, basically. Because otherwise they will leave and they will go to town, to somewhere they can get a tab. Like I look at a proper pledge ba. So yeah, there were these kind of daily banquets, I would say, with the builders where my mother would improvise and make some pasta and they would lay out delicious cheese and, and bread and things. Yeah, it was really convivial and it was also a way to lure friends down. Yeah. To help out. Right. So that, so my mom would invite friends around for lunch and then they would arrive and she'd be Great, great, great. Can you just help knock down a wall or build a p to go out or, you know, plant these trees. And then, you know, the reward would be a very delicious, beautiful lunch. Isobel Giles: And so what did a typical lunch look like at Arniano then? I know I'm gonna get jealous here. Amber Guinness: Very seasonal, big salads. So baccelli also broad beans with, with pecorino or cheese, laid out really beautifully in big bowls. Maybe a pasta, which it didn't matter if it had cooled down a little bit. Big hunks of cheese, big hunks of ham for people to chop themselves. So plus Saha, which is not an entry level Shari for anyone. Um, basically like all the meaty joints they chuck in and it's very delicious. There was an awful day when the builder arrived looking incredibly proud and he'd caught lots of robins and he basically wanted to barbecue them. And my mom nearly burst into tears, 'cause she was so upset. And my father just sort of went. Don't, please don't offend him. Please. We really need, we really need the hands to get, we really need the hands to get done. Like please don't offend him anyway. Yeah. So I dunno what happened with that, but that was a big drama apparently. Oh yeah. Isobel Giles: And those poor little migrating birds. Amber Guinness: awful. Absolutely awful. Then there was a lot of, around us, there's so many chin while Bo there was a lot of, um and, Isobel Giles: And you've written about your father, Jasper, who sounds like he did these incredible barbecues, you know, Bistecca fiorentina and rosticciana. What made them so Italian? Amber Guinness: Uh, yeah, I mean it's tuscans specifically. They love their meats and they love their roast grilled meats. That is a huge thing, particularly around us, is people gather to do the rosticciana, which are the delicious ribs, which he might put with rosemary and lemon. My dad, I would say it's fine, I don't think it was actually distinctly Italian, his way of cooking. It was kind of Italian fusion with not just English food, but if you were doing the English lexicon nursery food, um, you know, so, so he was so, like, his rosticciana was delicious and all the builders and everyone loved it, but it was with a barbecue sauce, which was ketchup, soy, honey, all these things, and then chucked it in a bit of rosemary. So it went there really well, but it was yeah, I would say I. Italo nursery. Oh, the other thing he used to make a lot as a side dish or if my mom was away and he was cooking for us, was he would buy the kind of UHT milk in the box from the Coop. And it's surprisingly, actually quite. And uh, and he would chop leeks into disks and then put them in a pan and then cover it in the, in the shop bought béchamel, and then just sort of give us that which was delicious, bubbling, and cheesy and yummy. Uh, and then just give us a hunk of bread and, you know, tuck it and get on with it. Isobel Giles: God, that sounds delicious. Now, I know very sadly, your father died in 2011 and a few years later in 2014, you founded the Arniano painting school with your great friend William Roper-Curzon. You've described it as a way of breathing life back into the house. What was that like, sort of going back and and reinvigorating the place? Amber Guinness: Yeah, it was, I mean, it was so, obviously it was awful when my father died, it was really heartbreaking. He was such a big presence. He was really well loved, he had this kind of magical quality of making whoever he was talking to feel like the center of the universe. Whether that was the bank manager he saw every so often, or the builders or us or his friends or whoever. So I think when a place has this huge personality living there and then that personality goes away, the house dies a little bit with it. I think for my mother and sister and I, when we went back after my father died for the first time, 'cause he chose to do all his treatment and died in England and it was just sort of really odd. It didn't feel like home anymore. And 'cause he tended his garden every day. It was his big passion. He loved it. And so also the fact that the lawn hadn't been moan and there were Yeah, it's so symbolic. It's so symbolic. It's this physical manifestation of the fact he wasn't there anymore. And yet it was still so special to us. We loved it, but it was really bittersweet. Mm. And I had this great friend William, and who's an amazing painter and raconteur and very good company. And he came and he looked at the views, which was part of the reason my parents bought that house was these incredible 360-degree views across the valley toward Delino. And William was describing what my father had done with the garden, saying he's created these rooms and these views and it's so special. And for painting it's incredible. And so we just sort of had this idea that the house was empty. Why don't we fill it with people? I'll cook. I mean, I was 24 quite cocky of me to think I could kind of cook 15 people three times a day and William would teach and we would yeah, kind of recreate these house parties or try and recreate these lunches that I'd grown up with and things. The first one was so tiring. Yeah, absolutely exhausting. Because we didn't have any help. We just did it and we sort of invited friends and family for literally almost no money. I think we just covered all food costs basically. But it was the hardest work I've ever done. I was making the beds, I was doing the breakfast, I was making lunch. Which in a way is great 'cause then, you know exactly what you need in terms of support and how to make it work, but it was very, very tiring. Also. I was 24, so obviously I was up drinking all night and having a great time and blah, blah, blah. Isobel Giles: Really sort of burning the candle at both ends. Amber Guinness: Exactly. Isobel Giles: And how did you re-inaugurate the kitchen? What were some of the first dishes that you made there? Amber Guinness: Yeah, so my mom loves making and always has making malfatti, which are these beautiful little, like dumplings. And in Florence they're called nudi, nudo in Italian means naked. And they're naked because they aren't encased in pasta. So it's basically like the most classic filling of a ravioli, which spinach, ricotta and a bit of mint. But it's on its own. And you just cover it in a light coating of flour and poach them. And then you either dress them in sage butter or tomato sauce. You bake them and they're very delicious, really light. And I mean, you'll have had them there. They're heaven. So I made a lot of nudi, which again, why am I making nudi on my own for 15 people? That's insane. Like, you need like 15 per, oh my gosh. So just things like that were a bit silly. What else? My mother always made this really delicious. It's actually Catalan. It's not Italian, but roast chicken with grapes where you surround a whole chickens and in the pan, put white grapes and it creates this kind of bittersweet sauce. It's really, really good. I'm making me hungry. Good. And then I think it was spring, so I did a lot of, and again, I was shelling fresh peas. Yeah. What are you doing? That's a real disaster. Just, yeah I was like, let's do all the really special, really nice things with absolutely no help. Isobel Giles: I think there is something about baccelli, and I think, I think you actually wrote this in one of your books. There's nothing quite like sitting in a restaurant and ordering a plate of baccelli and Pecorino in the safe knowledge that you don't have to do the podding. Amber Guinness: Oh my gosh. It's absolutely, I've actually turned it into an activity on our painting courses now if it's spring. Oh. Anyone who's like, not up for painting, I'm like, why don't we sit in the sunshine with a glass of wine? And she, some broad beans. Isobel Giles: So you and your husband, the journalist, Matthew Bell, now have a son, Milo, you've spoken about his school lunches. Amber Guinness: Unreal. Isobel Giles: Yeah. They sound extraordinary. Could you tell me a little bit more about those? Amber Guinness: Well, so there's a little blackboard and I look at it every day and I just think, in England this would not happen. I mean, the other day he was having me in aqua, which is so sophisticated. So it's aqua is this, sort of Neapolitan, a Neapolitan dish, which is fish poached in crazy water, which is very salty tomato sauce, uh, with olives and capers and lots of delicious things. And yeah, so it was like white fish in acqua pazza. I asked him when he got home, I said, did you like. Your fish was like, and he loved it. Then in November, this was the moment my husband just said , we're never leaving Italy, ever was, uh, first we got this email saying, on the 8th of November there'll be the, plans, the loon, so the new oil tasting for the 3-year-old. So my son is three and they had new Seasons olive oil tasting, which was, uh, fettunta. So Fettunta is the most basic way of trying new oil. Isabel obviously you know this, but you just douse toasted bread in that peppery acid, green, new olive oil. Um, and it's the combination of the word fettunta, which means slice and unta, which means oily. It's this oily slice, really delicious. So Milo had that, and then he had pasta in bianca, but with nuovo. And then I think the third thing was probably, again, a white fish dressed in new oil. And then he came home, was telling me all about how the, the olives had just been picked recently. They'd been harvested and then they'd been pressed at the, and yeah that education around food is wonderful. And again, in October they went to the market in Santo Spirito th and bought a pumpkin and talked about the pumpkin and cooked with the pumpkin. Isobel Giles: is incredible and, and something I think that's really missing in many other cultures, this education around food. Yes. Amber Guinness: Exactly. I have a whole chapter actually in Winter in Tuscany about minestre, about soups, about this really nourishing, amazing culture around soups in Tuscany. And often they'll have, uh, farro, like spelt soup. I again, would you have that in a nursery in England? I just don't think you would. Isobel Giles: Yeah, and it's, it's so nourishing. Amber Guinness: So nourishing and delicious. And you can put a little bit of olive oil, they can put a bit of cheese on. And it's so nice that Milo comes home and I say what did you have lunch? Isobel Giles: And it must be amazing to be passing down this idea of the importance of food in the same way that it was, you know, passed down to you. Amber Guinness: I, I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. It's really nice. And that sort of, that's what, you know, if Milo and I are on our own or Matthew's doing something, the kind of project I'll do, I'll be like. He'll make banana bread or he's scrambled some eggs and he likes standing next to me and he likes doing all the things and I'll measure things out and he'll tip them into the bowl and it kind of gets more and more satisfying and more and more fun and hopefully that's all feeding into his psyche about just being a bit adventurous and not stressing out too much. And he is actually really adventurous around food and I'm sure that's to do with being brought up here. Isobel Giles: You mentioned markets a moment ago, and I know you live in Florence now and spend a lot of time at the local Sant'Ambrogio market. What is it that you love about it and what are you looking for when you go typically? Amber Guinness: I love Sant'Ambrogio. I think it's the one covered market in Central Florence that's retained its proper identity, 'cause obviously the Mercato Centrale is wonderful and that's where I'll go if I'm looking for fish or whatever. But there is a commercialization that's come in there, I would say. Whereas Sant'Ambrogio is so unapologetically just. The farmers from out of town who are coming in, they're flogging their wares. They don't care who you are or what's going on, do you want, do you want the pears or don't you want the pears? You know, it's just very straightforward. And then the covered part is so special, all the butchers again, and the fish mongers and the cheese. And there's a fabulous restaurant, Rocco inside, I think I saw like four chefs smoking you know, as they were cooking. It's just great, very unapologetic in, its properness. Yeah. I love it because. Yeah, I find the best produce there probably. And when I go, I'm looking for really good seasonal produce, so at the moment it'll be baccelli and, soon Fresh Peas, which is exciting. A couple of weeks ago. It was the radicchio. I went and bought some beautiful pink radicchio and made a lovely lasagna with gorgonzola with those. And then also in January, February. I love all this amazing citrus. I love how nature has this habit of, oh, these are the longest, darkest days. Here's some really beautifully colored fruit for you. Isobel Giles: And there's a reason certain foods grow at certain times of the year, right? It's, it's what we're meant to eat. You know? We're not meant to be eating strawberries in December. Amber Guinness: No, exactly. No, that's, which is why it's like February. Nature goes, here's a bright pink salad leaf for you. Yeah. Here's a pink blood orange to cheer you up. It'll be okay. I think it's really wonderful the kind of mystery around all these glorious foods. Isobel Giles: Yeah. Do you find that you cook differently in Florence versus aor? Amber Guinness: Yes, in Florence, I mean you've seen my kitchen here's, it's quite small so here I'm much more, I suppose practical. I eat out a lot more just 'cause we're in town and we have some amazing restaurants, inexpensive restaurants, very nearby. Isobel Giles: Yeah. To all the listeners out there, um, Amber lives in one of the best locations in Florence. She's got Camila right next door. Amber Guinness: Yeah, I mean, that's hardly inexpensive. But yes, I do have Cam Law next door. There are the CAAs down the road, but yeah, so in Florence it's really fun 'cause I can go to the market every day and buy fresh produce and I shop as I go along, whereas at Arniano the nearest shop is 15 minutes away, so I'll do a big shop. It's a bit different. I'll go to the market once a week and get loads of stuff for the week. And the kitchen is so much bigger and built for that kind of cooking, which is much more project led. So I'll do more ambitious things, like I'll make pici or pasta or, proper big batches of sugo and I just do a lot more entertaining so i'm cooking a lot more. Whereas here I cook for the three of us as we go along and I'm not menu planning, I suppose, in the same way whereas at ano, everything is thought about. Isobel Giles: And yeah. I imagine in Arniano generally you have more time to do that sort of slow cooking stews and soups and all those beautiful things. Amber Guinness: Yeah, exactly 'cause in Florence you're kind of rushing around doing meetings, doing errands, whereas at Ana your day is structured you'll work a certain amount of time, or if it's the weekend you just go for a big walk and what better way to while away the afternoon and just cooking something. Isobel Giles: Amber, what are your essential cupboard items? Would you say? You know, the bits that you just have to have stored away at all times, day and night. Amber Guinness: So I don't feel safe or happy if I don't have tinned tomatoes in my cupboard. Um, because if I have peeled plumtomatoes in tins in my cupboard, I know that I can sort it out. Anything is possible. Anything is possible, it's gonna be okay. Even if there's some disaster, I'll figure it out. I always buy peeled plum never chopped. 'cause weirdly, the chopped don't kind of disintegrate in the same way, they're just not as good. Very obvious, but very good olive oil, and I normally have one that I cook with and then one that I'll finish with or have raw on toast or on tomatoes. Single origin producers is the way to go, I think for olive oil, particularly in England where they'll buy olive of oil mixed with all sorts of olives across Europe, which means they can slip in rapeseed oil and Yeah. Bulk out their products, which is a bit depressing. So I love font. The monks near us at Monte Oliveto they told me They were very proud, top 45 olive oils initially. And it is very delicious. It's all picked by hand, by 30 monks and then pressed and they're impressed. It's amazing. Yeah, so okay, so Tinned tomatoes is olive oil. I love having a tube of anchovy paste mm-hmm. In my fridge. Just because again, you can add a deep umami flavor to lots of things. You can spread it on lamb shoulder and it doesn't give it a fishy taste. It gives it a salty umami flavor. You can make delicious green sauces with it. Then Chili Flakes. I love having, and what I love about the way Italian cooks use Chili Flakes is that it's not for spice like in England or an Indian cooking or something. It's not to get heat. It's to season. It gives a slight flavor. You're not chucking in too much chili, it's just very light back note of heat, which I think is really nice. What else? ceci gigante, big, good juicy chickpeas. That gives me the same feeling as the tinned tomatoes. I'm like, okay, we can do this. It's gonna be okay. I'll survive. I'll survive. Yeah, literally I'll survive another lockdown. But yeah, those are probably the staples. And then a good variety of pastas and rice and stuff. Isobel Giles: So, okay. Say I was coming over to Arniano tonight. What would you cook me with those ingredients? Amber Guinness: So I've got really into recently on the cover actually of Winter in Tuscany is one of my favorite dishes from the book, which isn't. Particularly traditional. It's a sausage lentil and chickpeas to you with loads of rosemary. For me it's what I felt eating in winter in a bowl, it's really yummy. But I've recently got into making it in a vegetarian way, which is adding many more chickpeas. So I'd go into the garden, I'd pick loads of nos of rosemary. I'd take the leaves off the stem. I finally chop, I mean so much rosemary, garlic, olive oil. Chuck in maybe soffritto like carrots and celery and some onion. Cook that down, add some tomatoes, add the chickpeas, maybe some lentils, maybe some chili flakes. And then create this big rosemary e stew. And then top that with some good olive oil and Parmesan. Yeah, that's a really yummy one. Isobel Giles: You know, I'm one of those hosts that gets really excited about having people over that I love and I think, oh, I'm gonna do this and I'm going to add this. And actually sometimes, you know, But, so, going back to Quanto basta, how do you know when what's on the table is enough? Amber Guinness: I think when it gives you a nice feeling and you're like, oh, that's pretty, or that looks good. I think in terms of decoration, even if you go to the supermarket and buy a bunch of flowers from the supermarket and just get a few glasses and just have a few stems to make your life simple or inexpensive. I think if it just gives you that nice little hmm, feeling, then that's great. I'm pretty unfussy about tables. I just think as long as they look pretty and nice and like you've vaguely thought about it, then that's good. This thing of layering tablescapes and dah dah, I find that so exhausting. I actually hate an overly fussy table. Mm-hmm. Um. So, yeah, so I think the minute I'm like, Ooh, in terms of decoration, that's when I know it's enough. And then in terms of the food, I'm like, you, I'm gonna add that and I'm gonna make this and I'm going to, do lots and lots of things. But then the minute I start feeling stressed out, if there's like two dishes to go, I'll just cut them. I'm quite ruthless, basically. I'm like, this is stressing me out. It's done. This'll, do. Isobel Giles: I've got a lot of respect for that. Gotta say, so do you think that there's one ingredient that defines Tuscan cooking to you? Amber Guinness: Probably the most emblematic is cavolo nero. Which for anyone who doesn't know is this amazing black cabbage. It's a brassica without a stem. So it grows in these leaves, I mean, it looks a bit like the skin of a dinosaur. I always think, um, it's kind of bubbly and you can't imagine it ever being edible. But you cook it down. It's this delicious, nourishing, amazing kind of super green, essentially. It's so good. And it's done in Padella, so it'll just be wilted and then passed through the pound with garlic infused olive oil with maybe a little bit of chili flake. In casalinga they did this wonderful, uh, cavolo nero pesto in the winter, which is just so good. And he very kindly gave me the recipe, actually for Winter in Tuscany. So I felt very lucky. And he blanches the cavolo nero or then refreshes it in very cold water, so it retains that vivid green color, and then whizzes it up with a tiny bit of garlic, hardly any garlic at all, pinoli and walnuts. Oh. And it's just so good. And then you put that on pasta and it's heaven. And actually it's an amazing sauce on its own. I've had it with steak. I've tossed it through potatoes. Wow. Um, it's really, really a very special concoction. Isobel Giles: Yeah. And I think it's quite interesting that the ingredient, you've said cavolo nero is a winter ingredient, right? Usually best after the first frost. And I guess that leads us into your book Winter in Tuscany. So many people sell this idea of Tuscany and summer. What do you think the off season reveals that summer hides? Amber Guinness: I I think, 'cause I grew up here, so the school term was essentially when we were here, so that's September to June. And the schools initially you don't really get holidays. Like the Easter holidays coming up. Milo has, I think from the Thursday before Good Friday to the following Tuesday. It's not like in England where you get a month off at Easter. Mm-hmm. Or even a month off at Christmas. I think at Christmas you get two and a half weeks basically. So we were always here, and that to me is home. That's the feeling of being here in the off season is the home feeling. I get, when I think about ano and I think of Tuscany, it's not the blistering hot, sweaty days in Florence or the cicadas or any of these things. It's misty cold days and winter ingredients. And from a food perspective, I think what is revealed. In Tuscany in winter is the true cuisine because the cuisine comes into its own. In winter, it was a cuisine designed for winter, pots of, meaty stews. All these dishes they're what you wanna eat when it's cold. You don't wanna eat pappardelle al Cinghiale in August, you know, and no one wants to be in the kitchen in August. Yeah. People are tossing together the panzanella or they're just having tomatoes with olive oil and salt, its very, very different, way of being. Whereas I think September to June, actually people are in the kitchen. They are making, they are. Spending time on kitchen projects. They are prepping artichokes. They're cooking artichokes. They're doing all these things that they just don't do in the summer. So I don't actually think summer's particularly representative of Tuscany. It's actually quite a small proportion of life here. And actually, if you wanna get to the crux of Tuscan summer food, you head to the coast, you head to Maremma, and then you really get a sense of this. But even then it's very land and sea. And I think when I was researching my second book, which is about Theran sea, so it's partly about the Maremma and that stretch of Tuscan coast, , Isobel Giles: This is your book, Italian Coastal. Amber Guinness: Italian Coastal, yeah. My second book exactly. And someone who lives in Mariama described the cuisine down there to me in such a nice way, which is that if you go down the Aurelia, which is the coastal road, which runs parallel to the coast, if you go to a restaurant on the sea side of the Aurelia, all the food will be fish. And if you cross the road and go to a restaurant on the, on the land side, all of it will be terra. It will all be wild boar and all this. It'll all be meat. And, and I think that is so true. How, how basically Tuscan food is kind of wintry even when you get to the coast. Yeah, yeah. Isobel Giles: So talking about winter, what does a perfect winter's day look like at Arniano to you? Amber Guinness: Um, it looks like coffee in bed, staring out of the window at the view that's a big treat and then a big walk through the woods. Hopefully when the hunters aren't out, because that's quite a big stress around us. It's the lack of gun etiquette. I asked someone the other day who said there are at least 300 reported that doesn't include, not reported gun accidents a year in Italy from hunting. Because, you know literally a bush twitches and they'll shoot it. So when we were children, we weren't allowed to walk in the woods if there was a hunt near us. Complete madness. So yes, if there's not a hunt around us, I'll do it. Really big, long walk through the woods, which is just so wonderful. And then a couple of hours of cooking a big lunch, having people over drinking a big, full-bodied, Montalcino or maybe Brunello or something wine. Bit of a rest and then maybe another, I love walking basically around there and in the afternoon and kind of twilight, the landscape turns pink, or the light turns pink, it's so, so special. So yeah, lots of walking and eating . And then maybe an evening by the fire again with more wine and more food. Isobel Giles: Ugh, that sounds absolutely perfect. Now, you, you mentioned panzanella earlier, a recipe that relies on old bread, and there's so many other recipes that do the same. You know, you've got pappa al pomodoro, or do you think there's something about restraint being the real luxury in Italian cooking? Amber Guinness: Yeah, I think so. And I think it's why when people try and mess, ah, Tuscan food. It doesn't work. I've never had an experience where I've been to a swanky restaurant and they've tried to do a tasting menu and a fancy version of pappa al pomodoro, where, where it's worked. Yeah. Because the minute you take away the home cooking aspect and there's no spectacle around it, it loses its magic. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't taste the same, and it's not so exciting. So yeah, I think that probably is the main luxury. And it is to do with being able to understand and see that someone has put love and care into the food that they're cooking you. There's no ego basically which I think is a real luxury when it comes to food . Isobel Giles: And leftovers. I mean, they exist here of course, but they're never really leftover, even old red wine. I think you've got a great recipe. Spaghetti all'ubriacona, Yeah, yeah, which is effectively old wine. Amber Guinness: Yeah, exactly. Kind of wine. Yeah. The wine makers in Chianti, I think came up with it to use up the scarcity, the wine they couldn't sell, and it's basically spaghetti cooked in red wine and water and pancetta that and onion cooked down in old wine. And then the two are combined to this, make this kind of delicious, unusual, violet colored dish. It's really, it's fabulous. Isobel Giles: God, it sounds amazing. Now going back to the monks. You mentioned you grew up visiting them frequently in Monte Oliveto Maggiore. They grow almost everything they cook. What was it like spending time with them? Amber Guinness: It was really wonderful because I've, as you mentioned, I mean my whole life even, and when I was a child, we used to get taken there on a gita, on school trips all the time. Uh, 'cause there were these beautiful frescoes by, Signorelli and Sodoma depicting the life of St. Benedict in this really gorgeous cloister. And it's in a really beautiful part of Tuscany, which is called the Crete Senesi, which was basically a seabed, many, many, many, uh, millennia ago. And, um and it's on this promontory and you drive up to a really beautiful drive from Buonconvento. And it looks like this kind of magical castle from a fairytale sitting on this. Cliff basically. Um, and you drive up and you go and see the fresco and they're so lovely. And actually we used to often go to midnight mass on Christmas Eve. Um, I mean, we're not particularly religious, but it was just sort of a, it was fun. Yeah. See some kind of Gregorian chanting and uh, and um it was really lovely. I wrote to them and said I've got this project I'm writing about winter food. I would love to come and do some photographs at the monastery. Uh, 'cause I've been coming here all my life. And they were super open to it. They were so friendly, so helpful. There's a particular monk called Don Andrea, who runs all the agricultural side of things. And I mean, they have so much land, that abbey, it's wild. And they have these amazing olives that they make this amazing olive oil with. They have fields and fields and fields of chickpeas, fields and fields and fields of spelt and they do their own honey and they make chocolate and they are very, very busy. And they were so generous of their time. You know, a, they let me take all the photographs, which we were allowed to use as the chapter openers in the book, which is really special. And also he volunteered. I didn't ask. He said, oh, there's a recipe you should definitely include, and it's our farrotto, which is their spelt version of risotto, uh, which is made almost entirely all ingredients. They grow. So it's their spel, their saffron, their oil, their wine. So he said, the only thing that we don't make that goes in it is pinoli. Isobel Giles: God, that's phenomenal. Amber Guinness: Yeah, it was wonderful. Isobel Giles: Now talking a little bit about the book, you separate your recipes into allora, quickly and con calma. It's, it's almost like you're saying cook according to the day you are having. Amber Guinness: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think when it comes to cooking, and I suppose I'm becoming a bit more evangelical about this as things in England are going the way they're going, you know, I go to a supermarket in the UK and there's not just a section of ready meals. It's walls and walls and walls of fridges, of ready meals. And people feed themselves in such an odd way. I mean I went to someone's house the other day and someone arrived a bit late and I think we'd already eaten. So she ordered pasta amatriciana from Round the Corner to be delivered by Deliveroo. And I was just thinking, it would've been quicker for you to, I could have made that for you in 10 minutes. Yeah. And it took half an hour for it to arrive and you probably spent 18 quid on it. That's just insane. So I guess I'm becoming a little bit more evangelical about the fact that. People should probably cook for themselves from scratch. And it doesn't have to be complicated or time consuming. You don't have to use up a lot of brainpower. If you have a few things, like you were talking about the cupboard, the essentials, you can chuck something together so quickly for yourself. And so out of all or other recipes you can do in under 30 minutes, which will feed you and will be delicious. Much yummier than if you had a ready meal. I mean, everyone's gotta do what they've gotta do, obviously. But I don't think cooking has to be overly complicated or time consuming and it's a nice moment also to, keep your hands busy, to not be on your phone which I'm so guilty of this, you know, I'm a dreadful phone addict. So, so cooking is kind of taking on this talisman like quality at the moment where it keeps my hands away from my bloody phone. Yeah. And so it's, it's becoming all the more important just as a moment of kind of autopilot meditation, self-reflection, all these things. Isobel Giles: Well, also I think talking about milo and school lunches, it all comes back to education around food and understanding how ingredients can be used. That, as you say it, it doesn't really need to take more than 10 minutes to throw together something that's really, really tasty. Amber Guinness: Yeah, exactly. I think also what's so nice about cooking as well is the stakes are quite low. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like if you, if you slightly overcook your pasta, you're not gonna kill anyone. You're not like, I mean unless you're feeding them a poisonous mushroom, it's gonna be okay. It doesn't matter. Yeah. It doesn't have to be perfect, the minute you let go of this idea that everything has to be perfect was the minute I realized that I could be intuitive. When I was talking earlier about overcomplicating my life When I first started doing the painting courses, by doing these really complicated dishes that are very difficult to do by yourself. 15 people, because I wanted it to be perfect. I wanted them to see the best of Tuscan Spring and all these things. And actually if you just let go of the reins a little bit. Everyone's gonna be happy with something yummy. Yeah. Yeah. If it's not transcendentally yummy because I balls something up a little bit again, they probably won't notice it's gonna be okay. And it's so much also to do with you being relaxed if you're hosting particularly or if you're cooking for people you love. There's nothing worse than being around someone who's tense and stressed out about the food that's being prepared. Yeah. I think really ruins the vibe. So if you can let go a little bit and just know that it's gonna be okay, and even if it's not perfect, it's not gonna actually be catastrophic. Yeah. And even if it's catastrophic, it's quite funny. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good story. Story. Yeah. Exactly. Isobel Giles: And you know, just coming back to that point, you, you do need a degree of confidence to trust your instincts and cook the quanto basta way. You know, there's so many friends of mine who sort of religiously follow a cookbook. I mean, the end result is probably much better than anything I attempt to whip up. But would you say that there's a particular lunch or supper where you really felt for the first time, Hey, I can trust my instincts here. Amber Guinness: Yeah, I mean, definitely I'm a much better, more competent, cook now 14 years on than I was when I was 24. I didn't have any formal training i'm totally self-taught, so I have definitely learned, there's much less waste, for instance, all these practical things. I think in terms of it being yummy or delicious, I can't really remember the moment, but what I was saying about letting go does feed into this. Your example of someone who's following the recipe religiously, what shifted for me was I just don't make recipes that stress me out like that. Yeah. I feel like people will be as happy with Shepherd's Pie as they would be with malfatti. As long as you are relaxed. So everyone will have some sort of recipe they are comfortable with or confident in. So those are the things to make when you have people over. The things where you are following religiously and you're stressing out, those are the things to make in a quiet moment. Yeah. When you're cooking for your family and you are not, you are not too worried about it. So, so I would just always go easy on yourself, on your menu choices. I think that's what changed for me mm-hmm. Was, um, was just choosing more wisely. Isobel Giles: Now, Amber, you've said that cooking is not about being perfect. It's about being present, being practical, and making something delicious with what you have. It feels like that could also be an instruction for life, not just for cooking. Amber Guinness: Yeah, I think Quato Basta is all encompassing. It's definitely can be a philosophy in the kitchen. It can also be a philosophy for life. And I've talked about this in the book. There was this wonderful moment when I was cooking with Grazia, who's this wonderful local cook to us in, she's like a local legend. Um, my friend got married and she, all she wanted was Gia to make her wedding lunch. And Gia was like, I don't have a license, I can't do it. And she like bought her license and got her insured and did all these things just so Gia this home cook could cook her her wedding lunch. And, she makes the best pici, which are these, fresh pasta from, from Siena, which is just flour and water and it's like fat noodles. And the idea was that it was a way to use up the flour that people had used for their bread. If they had leftover flour, they would make pici. 'cause you didn't need an egg. And it was just, flour and water. And I really wanted her to show me how to make pici 'cause it's so good. I gave her this bowl of flour, which I had weighed because I suspected this would happen. So, the idea being I gave her a bowl of flour, which was weighed, and then I would subtract whatever we'd used after. So I knew how much flour, which she's, because I said very strategic, I said, you know, how much flour vaguely are we gonna use for four people? And she just looked at me like I was insane. I said, I bet, you know, it'll take as much flour as it takes. And that is the quanto basta way. It's just kind of, well, I don't know because it might be damp, it's, it might be dry. And she was just saying, you need slightly use your instincts. She's like, after you've made it two or three times, you'll know the feeling that you are looking for with the dough. And so if some more dough is left in the bowl or some less dough, it doesn't matter. And again, I think with savory cooking less so with baking, if you put a bit too much flour in your pici dough, does it matter? Yeah. You know, or if you don't put quite enough flour, it just means you are all gonna have a bit more of an annoying time rolling them. They'll just be a bit stickier. But it really doesn't matter that much. And the gradation of difference could be a hundred grams, you have quite a big curve for mucking it up too badly. So I think that's really lovely. I was rereading Elizabeth David's Italian food the other day, She talks in her instruction about how collating these recipes was so difficult traveling the length and breadth of the country. She never saw a set of scales in any of the kitchens in 1950. Which goes back to our conversation about quanto basta of this is not new stuff. This is something that has carried on, the QB way of cooking, because no one's ever weighed anything. Yeah. They've just got on with it and just sort of, use a palmful, a fistful, a pinch, a Ada Boni's Talisman of Happiness was just released for the first time in full in English. And it is like, so lovely, like pour over a finger of marsala, it's fab. Isobel Giles: I love that finger of marsala. I'm gonna have to write that one down. I think you actually had a similar story, didn't you? I know we have a shared love for here in Florence and you, I remember reading something, there was the recipe with the Polpettone al limone where classically they offered up a recipe to you and then sort of said, actually, we don't have a recipe. You're just gonna have to come and watch. Amber Guinness: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Literally, I said I would love to include a, , I've been trying to recreate them on my own at home for four years. It has never worked. I've eaten them there so many times and I actually was like, I'm not gonna ask 'cause they won't tell me. So I just tried to do it at home by myself and I would use breadcrumbs. I got sourdough and made breadcrumbs. It was just not working. And then they said, we don't really have a recipe come and watch. They were so generous and sweet and let me come. But I realized the key, the secret was the worst mass-produced bread in the world. Like white sliced, bread soaked in milk. That's why they're so delicious. And I was trying to do all these fancy breadcrumbs, uh at home and No, no, no. They just have that spongy white rectangles of bleached white bread and that's why they're so soft and yummy. It makes so much sense. It makes so much sense. And I'm like, great. Okay, perfect. We know we can cut crack on. Okay. Fabulous. Four years later, four years later, Isobel Giles: right? Well, that's been noted. When in doubt, choose stodgy white bread and soak it in milk. Now anthropologists talk about recipes as a form of social memory. Does it feel like that to you? Amber Guinness: I think definitely. It's a way of keeping people alive. I, I suppose, which is really nice. My friend Carolina, she makes things that her grandmother made us when we would go to her house from school at lunchtime. And her grandmother's still around just about, but, when her grandma's not around anymore, she'll make those dishes for me, I will remember being seven and sitting at her kitchen table, and I'll remember her grandmother, which is a really lovely thing. And that's why it's so important, I think, to past dishes on. My mom's malfa, she makes the, the malfa I was talking about earlier, she often poached them in chicken broth. And she'll make that as a kind of cozy thing if we're not feeling well or on a cold winter's night, a boyfriend or partner of hers seduction suit. Seduction suit. Yeah, exactly. He's like, right, I'm in. I love you. Um, exactly that, that's how good they are. That's wow. Um, and so, you know, and I make those for Milo and hopefully when he's older, he'll not only remember me, but remember that they were, you know, his grandmothers. Isobel Giles: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I think flavor and taste is such a miraculous thing for that, what it can bring back and the sensations it can produce, the memories, like you say, it's really it's remarkable. i know after your father Jasper died, you said cooking was how you stayed close with him, especially I think during your time at university in Edinburgh. It must have been a really interesting process writing down some of those memories because also, you know, memories are such a strange thing. They can trick you and you're like, no, it definitely tasted this way or that way. At least that's certainly how it is for me. Amber Guinness: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Again, and I hadn't actually made my dad's rosticciana for ages, years, I think. And his mother had a great friend called Lin Connor, who published a book in the seventies called Picnics or something, and she republished. It recently had his, my Jasper's, rosticciana in it. And I was looking through, I thought, oh, I must made that . Um, and I made it and, and I ate, I was like, oh my God, and we were at Arniano, this feels like a barbecue from when I was 12 years old. Wow. It was like so odd with his nursery food, you know? Uh, ketchup, these sauces and stuff. Yeah, it's extraordinary. Isobel Giles: Now, I'm not sure if I'm gonna get hounded for this, but I do think that if there's one thing to bring back a nostalgic mood, it's Heinz tomato ketchup. I know this is not an ad. Amber, you've built a life around the table, the books, the painting school, was any of it planned? Amber Guinness: Oh my God, no. Aren't we all just muddling through and figuring out as we go along? No, it was not planned. I read history at university. I went to art school. I cooked on the side as a form of meditation as sometimes to make extra cash, sort of cooking for dinner parties at university. But I never thought it would be what I do in, in life basically. But it's it's wonderful. It's wonderful, happy accident and I think it's a nice thing when you kind of don't necessarily recognize something you're good at as being good enough to take on in life as your profession. So it's, it's nice when suddenly you can do that. Yeah, it's, it is lovely. And I'm in with the books in particular, I was cooking on the painting course and Matthew, my husband and William, my business partner. Would say, you've got to write a cookbook. And then all our guests on the painting courses would say, what's the recipe for this? How do I make that? Please, can you write a book, please? We write 'em down for us. And William and Matthew would look at each other and roll their eyes and say, she'll never do it. Come on. You know, we need you to write a book. And this went on for about five years. And then lockdown happened and I had all the time in the world. Yeah. And, and I wrote the book and it got published and it, and it did well. Isobel Giles: God, it must have been a huge moment to see the book, you know, in its physical form. Amber Guinness: It was really amazing. Although it was quite difficult. 'cause my mom was in England and obviously, most of the recipes kind of. From her. And you know, the recipes came out. She said, that's wrong. That's wrong, that's not how I would do it. I was like, you don't have a recipe, so how do you know it's wrong? Yeah, you always just tell me to watch. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, there was still that nice little tension of like mom and daughter in the kitchen as well. Ugh. Lovely mom, daughter. Never gets old. Now do you think that in a world that always wants more quanto basta feels slightly rebellious? Amber Guinness: I think it's just an invitation to slow down and kind of stop rushing. I'm guilty of it too. We all rush around so much and put so much, pressure on so many different things. So the idea that you can actually just have a really special evening with four ingredients, with some leftover wine pan, that, and onion and some pasta. I think it is quite rebellious. I think it is kind of maybe two fingers up to the culture we're being fed all the time. The ingredients for that is, you know, six quid. So I think it is a good rebellion, a reminder just to be present and make you with what you have. Isobel Giles: so Amber, on that point, and at this stage of your life, what feels like just enough to you? Amber Guinness: Um, actually sitting in this flat, um, making, yeah, having a nice time with my son, putting him to bed, knowing he's sleeping really well, making something in the tiny kitchen with Matthew. And then coming in here and either chatting or playing backgammon or watching TV and just eating, eat something, yummy together and having a glass of wine. People are always trying to make plans or, you know, I'm always trying to see friends in Florence in the evening, and then often I'm like. I just wanna stay in. Yeah. Yeah. I feel you. Yeah. So, yeah, so actually just sort of, again, the. Drunkard spaghetti and a glass of wine and a lit candle. It's quite nice. It's kind of enough for me. Isobel Giles: Right Amber, our final act, I'm going to ask you five quick fire questions. No need to think. Just answer. Your favorite place in Italy. Amber Guinness: Salina in the Aeolian islands, it's, oh gosh, it's such a special place and the fact it's very difficult to get to. And it's just very beautiful, tiny remote island with, uh, volcano. Salina is one of the seven Aeolian islands, little, and one of them is Stromboli, which is an active volcano. And if you drew it, it literally looks like a child's drawing volcano coming out of the sea. And most evenings, it gently bubbles. You sit on the north side of Salina and just watch it gently bubbling with a glass of wine. And at sunsets it's so special. Isobel Giles: I am sold, right? Go to Italian dish and where you eat it, and this is allowed to be your own cooking as well. Amber Guinness: Is it? Okay? Okay. Oh, sos really hard though. Um. I actually think baccelli and pecorino, so nice on a spring day, you know, sitting out with the sun on your face, eating really young, tender broad beans that you haven't had to shell yourself with young, you know, pecorino and some good bread. Really, really good. Black pepper as well. Yeah, a little bit of black pepper, Isobel Giles: really couldn't agree more. Essential Italian book, film, song, or work of art. I. Amber Guinness: Okay. Book in Italian is so good. I mean, much better than any translation. So. Beautiful. Phil, probably if it was an old one, I love. Really good. I loved la Sorry, that's sneaking two in, song I'm really into at the moment. Splendid s which is Don. I love that sort A bit of a tall disco, you know, get the, get everything going. Work of art. We live very near, uh, where the Pontormo's Deposition is, which is really, really lovely. I mean, I love births of culture where you can nip in mm-hmm. Rather than traipsing around the Uffizi . , There's so many beautiful things in Uffizi, obviously, but I, but it's a bigger, it's a big commitment. And also we went in the week before lockdown in 2020, and there was not one other person there. And I don't think I'll ever be able to go back to Uffizi ever again because we were the only ones and just like really took it in, it was so beautiful. But yes, also the, um, the Brancacci chapel in the, it's really beautiful, the Masaccio's really lovely Isobel Giles: Your favorite Italian expression. Amber Guinness: I mean, it's probably quanto basta you know, not to be unoriginal. I wanted Winter in Tuscany originally to be called qb, and I wanted the cover just to be a giant Q and a giant B. Oh, that's cool. I know. But the powers that be, that like actually wanna sell books, were like, no one knows what that means. No one knows what that means. Absolutely not, not a chance. Isobel Giles: oh, so finally, Amber, what has Italy taught you? Amber Guinness: It's really taught me just to have a nice time, and to not stress yourself out too much. I mean, I am often quite stressed, but it's taught me that if you're stressed, you've gotta punctuate your day with a good lunch out. You know, you've gotta have that balance. al desco is not a thing. Isobel Giles: Words to live by from Amber Guinness. al desco is not a thing. Amber, thank you so much for talking us through Quanto Basta, the Italian art of just enough in your own words. Amber Guinness: Thank you so much for having me. Isobel Giles: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Talking Italy and my conversation with Amber. In other news, our latest book, How Italy Feels, is now available to buy on our website. We might be biased, but it's a pretty good read. Ciao ragazzi, see you next week