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AIM High: Stakeholder management, impact & influence · Two in Twenty

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to another episode of AI, the podcast for marketers in investment management.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: My name is Twink Field.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm the CEO of White Marble Marketing and Director of the Association of Investment Marketers.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: In today's conversation, we are talking to Kurt Custer, who's the CIO of Newton Investment Management, as well as Jackie Boylan from Fidelity.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: She's the head of UK Advisor Platform there.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: And we're talking about stakeholder management, impact and influence.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, for any marketer, working with sales, working with the investment team as well as the C-suite is absolutely crucial in what we do day to day.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm delighted to say that they're sharing their thoughts on that and providing some helpful practical tips on how marketers can approach this.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Jackie and Kurt, for joining me today to talk about stakeholder management, impact, and influence.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: It would be great to start with if you could just introduce yourselves and your background and then we can crack on.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Should we start with you, Jackie?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks, Twink.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I manage the advisor platform business, Funds Network, so Fidelity.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: I've been in London for three glorious years.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: I love it here.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Previously lived in Sydney for all of my life.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Worked in financial services for nearly 25 years across investments, financial advice, lending, pension, and platforms.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm fully invested in this industry.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's fantastic.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: We've got great opportunities to help people drive better futures and outcomes for themselves.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: And Kat, over to you.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Kurt Custer.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the CIO of Newton.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: I too have been in investment management for way too long, approaching uh about 30 years.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: You can probably tell by my accent I'm American, but I've been here in the UK for about 18 years, uh, so I can officially speak for it.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you both.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um so really just to sort of lift the lid on this on this topic, um, and to start, I I often think that the tone is set for how powerful and effective marketing can be or marketing team can be by the support that's given right from the top and the culture and the environment that creates within the business.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I would just like to sort of start by asking, you know, how you know would you say that your respective companies allow marketing to sort of have a real voice in the business?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: And do you feel like um you know they can really show the value they can create?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: And if so, um, you know, really your thoughts on how you think that's been cultivated, both at a sort of cultural level and individual level.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Kat, do you want to start on that?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so I think the industry is clearly in transition.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh with that transition, there is change, and and during that period of time, you know, marketing has probably increased its importance relative to where we have in history because our client bases are changing.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, we're moving from the defined benefit world to the defined contribution world, things are becoming effectively more retail.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so the messages that you need to be able to get out to your audience have changed pretty fundamentally.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh and that's not even talking about the rise of social media, which has you know sort of changed everything for everyone.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think marketing now is probably as as important as it has been, um, you know, at least in the asset management industry, maybe ever.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I can see that you know, importance continuing to grow.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, with that importance, there comes you know, increasing responsibility.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I don't think it's okay to hide behind woolly statements or or ambitions that aren't well founded.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think metrics are increasingly important uh and efficacy.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you have to start to look at really bang for your buck in terms of how you want to do your marketing spend.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And what we've seen under COVID is that marketing spend may shift from conferences where you have a stand or everything else to maybe more posts on LinkedIn.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that obviously needs different skill sets in marketing, uh, moving from the more physical to the digital, um, you know, how you present, et cetera.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's all increasing in importance and and in there's going to be increasing demands for evidence.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think just to your point, I think COVID has definitely um shone a light on on marketing and that sort of that ownership of the sort of the client experience is completely digital, of course.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh, you know, it's very much an opportunity, if you like, for marketing to really kind of show show what they can do.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, sorry, Jackie, over to you, just to my earlier question around how fidelity um sort of empowers marketing and and how you see that cultivated.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I would absolutely say yes, from a fidelity perspective, marketing are showcased or empowered, are absolutely part of our business.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, from my perspective, I absolutely rely on marketing.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think they drive a lot of activity and a lot of value.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: The reason why I think it works at Fidelity, um, although marketing sits centrally, the channel marketing teams are very much embedded into the business channel.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: So they're part of our leadership teams, the marketing teams come to our way days.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: So there's not that hierarchical structure around reporting lines and that kind of thing.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: So culturally, that that's obviously really important to make marketing have a have a voice and and not be too siloed.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, other things that I think have worked for Fidelity, our marketing team absolutely understand our business strategy.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: So very, very embedded with it.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: We have shared objectives and KPIs, so we're all working towards the same outcomes.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: They know and understand our clients, which is extremely important.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: They offer great competitor insight, which is really important from my perspective and driving outcomes.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: And if I give you an example of just something and it's COVID-related as well, which is probably not surprising.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: When this all happened, my my head of marketing came to me and said we should write a letter to our clients and from you talking about what's going on, how we can still operate, how we can still service the advisors and their clients, and what tools and support we can provide.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Now you might say, look, that's marketing 101, Jackie.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's not that exciting.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: But the point from my perspective is I didn't have to think about it.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: He wrote the letter, he wrote it in exactly how I would write it.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: So he evaluated my comms and it sounded like what I would do.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And he took that thinking away from me.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I think from a marketing perspective, being valued from it from the business, it's doing those types of proactive things that really help.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: As you say, you know, that sort of proactivity, and so much comes from that genuine, genuine partnership, uh, you know, parity, uh, you know, that um marketing and and sales can have.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: So just I guess to the sort of relationship point in developing those relationships to be able to kind of work hand in glove like that.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I I think can see in some other businesses that that's not always there, and it can be it can be quite intimidating.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: So trying to develop those relationships with high-profile, busy people, catching them at the right moment.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so so in the scenario, say that I am your marketing person and we don't have the luxury of the sort of the fidelity culture that you described, Jackie.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what would be your expectations, I guess, in terms of my approach to you, the best way to get your time and attention, you know, supposing that that that relationship isn't already there, how would I even start to sort of make incremental steps there with you, for instance?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: The the best way to get my attention is to show me how what you're doing will support my clients and support my overall strategy.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: So what are you what are you putting in front of me that's going to help me achieve my objectives?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, think about what my objections might be.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: So if you are getting in front of me, be really prepared.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're wanting me to spend money or what have you, make sure it's in the budget, or if it's not, why not?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what what's what's the benefits?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, be my expert.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't necessarily mean that you need to have all the answers on the spot.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I think sometimes people do find that intimidating.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, be my advisor.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you're my marketing expert.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Come to me with ideas.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Don't use marketing marketing jargon.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to look stupid either.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to have to ask what Rommy is or what you're talking about when you're speaking marketing speak.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, very, very importantly, and Kurt, I think you mentioned this, is data and measurement success.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, marketing has traditionally been seen as a bit woolly.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, show me what you're doing and how how you can measure it.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: And um, my final point on this is I love something to look good, but don't give me a 50-page deck when it could be done in six because there's lots of lovely, pretty pictures.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: That that's good, but if don't don't overwhelm me with the what looks good, so I can't actually get the key messages.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant, really clear.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: And absolutely chimes with um some of the things that Kurt was saying right at the top there around sort of metrics and sort of evaluating the effectiveness of what we're doing.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Kurt, how what would you add there?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know, I think to my experiences and working with investment teams and and how busy they are, and I think you know, marketers are very aware that um, you know, they are focused on bringing in performance, making sure that their portfolios are as optimized as possible, you know, chasing them for a blog here or or what have you isn't necessarily at the front of their minds.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: Would how would you suggest a marketer develops those relationships with investment managers and and the C-suite as well?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, I think you know, besides underscoring the metrics point, um, it's it is about making life easy.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's it's about you knowing that a portfolio manager inherently isn't always a communicator, right?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, they they you know, our industry is full of people who have varying degrees of social communication skills, let's put it that way.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's critical that they get help getting their message across.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so some examples of that would be, you know, you might have a PM who you know is asked on a topic and he writes a 3,000-word, you know, uh story about what it is, you know, he thinks about the markets or about the economy or about whatever it is.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what may be actually needed is is a tweet or something you know considerably more digestible.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Most portfolio managers, and I would say the C suite, are not typically up to speed with the format issues, the delivery mechanism issues, the the client segmentation issues.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so they need to be guided in that way, you know, fairly explicitly about saying, okay, you know, I need 75 words that's going on LinkedIn, it's going to be tagged into this way, this is what we're doing, and this is what makes it punchy.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and having that communicated up front clearly, consistently, to be able to get feedback, I think is really important.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: I I um I've definitely seen that work, and particularly, I think sometimes marketers go in sometimes with the tactic rather than take a step back and explain to somebody the kind of the wider, the wider whole, the kind of the picture, the strategy, and how it's all tied together.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that can sometimes help get a bit more buy-in for understanding how those smaller pieces maybe fit into the bigger picture of how you're strategically supporting the business.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was just thinking uh, you know, obviously everybody, all of us have people to influence, persuade, manage one way or another.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'd be interested, you know, how do you uh you know prioritize the stakeholders that you have to sort of work with and and sort of where you invest your energies and any tips, I guess, for for our marketers as they're you know looking looking at doing the same?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um how do I prioritize my stakeholders?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think it's critical to understand the mode in which you need to be able to communicate with your various stakeholders.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody responds to different emotional cues or emotional signals.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you need to know whether you're dealing with somebody who's fundamentally an analyst person, so you want to show a lot of data at them, or whether they're gonna respond to a situation more, you know, emotionally, um, where you know, that's what's what motivates them.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think that that there is a you know, it's it's sort of a horses for courses, knowing your audience, knowing how to get those people involved.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I also think just sometimes asking them works, you know, you know, what what is the best way for me to be effective working with you?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um it that's always a great starting point, you know, just ask, say, hey, do you do you want me to you know send you a ton of data supporting it?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want me to give you a call?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how how do you want this to work?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and that can go a long way.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I wish candidly the people that tried to to cover me uh actually asked that up front instead of sort of assuming I just wanted to receive 5,000 emails.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh brilliant.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny, isn't it?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes the most direct, straightforward, simple route isn't necessarily followed.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Jackie, how about you when you're managing your stakeholders or frankly being managed?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I couldn't agree more.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's just interesting, it's the most basic thing, isn't it?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: You just ask someone what they would like.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's not we we we try to make it more complex than it is.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um most of us are relatively pretty, you know, simple human beings.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um for me, what has been effective, um, and Kurt alluded to this as well, is kind of understanding who you're engaging with.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I would also recommend that you don't just engage up, you know, and sometimes I see people thinking that the the only way is I need to engage with more senior people across my career.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's been one of the key reasons why I've been successful is because you build the relationships, you know, under, across and up.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that really helps when you're trying to influence different people, when you're trying to get buy-in and support for your ideas, um, when you might need help with a difficult stakeholder, because you know, you just know a range of different people that can help you.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I would really encourage that.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And when you do meet with people, I mean, people are all different, but most of them, you know, have things that are important to them.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I always try to find out just something about someone that I can always relay back next time I meet with them.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: So whether it's a child or a dog or they go cycling or what have you, and those little pieces of information, you don't need to remember the exact whether they've got a boy or a girl or the name, but just the child generally is enough.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: The question I was going to ask as well, I guess you know, you mentioned so difficult stakeholders, Jackie.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: Have you, uh whether it's difficult or or or just interesting in any other way, have you sort of seen any scenarios and or had to deal with them yourselves in the investment industry with sort of stakeholder management?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, definitely.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, plenty of examples.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm not sure actually how interesting they are, but it definitely feels like they're challenging.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one of the biggest ones actually was in Australia, and without going to too much detail, exactly what it was, the the challenge is when you have to deal with multiple stakeholders.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: So we were dealing on a regulatory project, so we needed to deal with industry groups, we needed to deal with regulators, we needed to deal with special interest groups like consumer groups and competitors.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when you're dealing with a whole range of stakeholders and it's very hard to find that common ground or that common aim, that definitely makes it very interesting and certainly challenging.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, we we went around in circles on that for probably nine or 10 months trying to get an outcome.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think other interesting stakeholder or challenging stakeholder environments, I think, and I think marketing would come across this a bit, is when you're dealing when there's there's centralized power in an organization and you're trying to break that down and how you kind of navigate through that.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I've certainly had to do that a number of times throughout my career.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's hard.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: When when people are only interested in their own specific outcome and they don't have a broader thought around what a more general outcome is that that can become very challenging.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Go on, Kurt.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, I mean, you you do need to take into account um what I think that the marketplace, well, not the the individuals that you're talking to, and then the broader marketplace, how they're gonna to to um how they're gonna react to any kind of uh suggestion, et cetera, or whether you implement something.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're we're we're talking about sustainability now as a big push for us.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's interesting because that word doesn't have a uniform definition in people's mind.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it is changing so rapidly that it even makes you know strategies um have to have to, and how you implement those strategies have to change.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I think if you're to ask, you know, Joe Blog on the street what that word meant three years ago in an investing context and what it means now, you'd get a very, very different definition.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that those things, you know, you know, you do have to look at sort of unintended consequences, etc.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess um it's it's it's funny.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think to that point, I think um what people understand of marketing, or indeed brand, is is kind of quite broad and as well, you know, there is a different that can mean different things to different people.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: And certainly, I think of um the the sort of most challenging conversations I've had in my career have often been when uh engaging people who have an old school image of marketing, sort of of this sort of supporting function to sales that's sort of a bit execution-oriented, that doesn't sort of challenge the business.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what what tips would you give to marketers who who are in that situation really, who who sort of find they're being sort of sidelined or slightly patronized, and they sort of can't get on to a sort of more stable footing and get to that sort of more um influential position?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think I think for those that don't accept the importance of of brand, um I think they're they're they're crazy.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, I I I used to work for UBS, um, and UBS has a huge brand in the wealth space, right?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that, you know, that brand is what carried a lot of commercial activities through.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it was the driving, you know, thing.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I'm I'm sure Jackie, you have the same thing.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's the brand that gets you the meeting.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that is that shouldn't be discounted by people.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's important for for people to, the marketing people, to, you know, sort of parlay the efforts that they do into the establishment of that brand value, uh, and and then relate to that to the stakeholders.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that's the angle that I would take.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think individual efforts about this conference or that conference or this LinkedIn post or this whatever, you know, that that's going to be harder to to show that it's it's massively useful, but it all adds to the mosaic of building the brand.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the brand is, you know, one of the dominant reasons people pick one investment product or over another investment product.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a key way to one of the key ways to differentiate.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Jackie, any thoughts there?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I agree in terms of how strong or how important branding is and how important it can be to the success of your business.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and the challenge is absolutely how you demonstrate that, which again Kurt alluded to, that it that it can be really difficult to measure brand campaigns and what impact it has.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would say, which is what I mentioned before, is is to break through some of these old school ways of thinking about marketing, it is to continue to show your value.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that might be by being able to demonstrate how what you're doing drives sales, how it drives retention, how it opens up the sales funnel, you know, improving brand recognition, that kind of thing.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, be really prepared to be able to measure and demonstrate the value of what you're doing.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mentioned competitor insight before, and something that our team does is they track competitor spend, their messaging, their strategy.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Their proposition, they come back and you know push that into the business and drive our awareness and understanding of what's going on in the market.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's a it's a great way of demonstrating value from my perspective.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the key challenge always for marketers is how they link back to return on investment.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're we're all interested in doing the right thing by our clients, but that then drives some financial success for us.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so marketing needs to help with explaining how they they feed into for me anyway, both of those key objectives.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant, thank you.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm just conscious of time and and just uh uh sort of wrapping up on a final point, really.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we talked a lot about how COVID-19 has put has pushed marketing to the forefront of these businesses, and you know, it's it's certainly I'm hearing that that sales and marketing are working together better than ever because sales are really seeing the value of doing that because they can't be in front of clients in the same way.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: And similarly, I'm hearing how investment managers are reaching out to marketers to help them in their online pitches and things like that, um, big praise, etc.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: So, no, we're absolutely having a different sort of relationship engagement right across the business.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do you think that marketers going forward maintain that?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I absolutely take your point, there's there's a proactivity point, there's um, you know, evidence metrics.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that that's a lot about sort of talking the language of the boardroom, isn't it?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and to your point, not getting into sort of marketing speak.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: Are there are there any other final tips or pointers for maintaining those stronger relationships and sort of building from here in in terms of the role that they've got and and the influence that it can bring?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: Jackie?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well I feel like I'm probably sounding like a broken record, but I agree in terms of how closely we've adapted to the new world and how much better marketing and sales are working together.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think our teams work together pretty well anyway, but there's certainly a much closer understanding, just talking quickly about online.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um we do need to be careful about how crowded it's becoming because everyone's trying to do the online events, everyone's you know, onto social media now, there is so many LinkedIn posts, blah blah blah.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you stand out in the crowd?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that to continue this and to continue to be effective, marketing might need to then show how we're different and how are we you know having more impact than competitors.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just generally, I think if if marketing can't help but be successful if they truly understand what the business is trying to achieve and they they link themselves into that and they have these joint outcomes.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I just think that's really the most basic thing and the most important thing.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's a great point.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's a there's a level of commerciality that I think so you know some marketers can sort of brush up on it, maybe, or sort of dust off to sort of uh sort of bring into their broader role.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um and Kurt, just to final words from you.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's you know, it's so refreshing to hear the CIO talking about the value of brand and the value of marketing.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, any other sort of final thoughts to sort of g up or sort of give some final bits of confidence to to our marketers as they think about the relationships they have across the business?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would say that the the other element is um because obviously with the COVID world, you know, it's it's a new shock, if you will.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um the there's also a pace of change that that our end clients have have never experienced before in in the markets, right?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we've had more financial um uh we've had more financial involvement by monetary authorities, we've had more financial involvement with fiscal spend, etc.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that means that a lot of the market dynamics that they may have grown up with or they're used to have fundamentally changed, right?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, real yields um haven't returned to sort of pre-GFC levels yet, uh, and they're going the wrong direction.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so it's it's a very, very different space.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think there's an educational component that marketing has to do here that goes above and beyond brand.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I I remember uh when way back when in the LDI phase here in the UK when they were all teaching, you know, you had three years of what I call educational marketing that went on, you know, before any sales actually took place.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um similarly, we're seeing with sustainable now, you know, there's a huge question about what is ESG and what do these things mean and what does that thing mean and what are the regulators gonna do.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's a ton of that educational component that is embedded in marketing.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that is gonna be an important differentiator going forward.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's not gonna be just about where you place on a on a LinkedIn post or whether it's social media or not.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's also you know how that content is tailored for the audience.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and as we get more towards a retail uh kind of a marketplace, the educational component really goes up in its importance.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you both, Kurt, Jackie, for for sharing your thoughts on such an important topic and uh for giving your time today.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much indeed.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.